Subject: [72attendees] Dietary restrictions

From: Dale Worley <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:55:54 -0400

The problem with dietary restrictions is that there is a collision of
design goals.

If we use venues used to international conferences and pay full freight,
the chefs understand and will deal with all sorts of dietary
restrictions.  But that costs money, people are already objecting to
costs, and full-freight prices and globalized venues work directly
against our goal of being accessible to an international audience.

An effective, if unsympathetic, approach would be to have people with
dietary restrictions be responsible for finding their own solutions.
But people who are volunteers may well not have enough time to deal with
finding specialized food sources.

Ideally, food passes through the hands of chefs who can cope with
dietary restrictions.  But we don't really want to require sit-down
restaurant prices, we want mass-provisioned food prices.  But we want
individual customization also.

Worse, once we get beyond established international conference venues,
it may be hard to get particular dietary restrictions even understood.
E.g., it seems that about 0.03% of the Irish population is Jewish, and
though I'd expect a food service operation to have some idea that kosher
food exists, it's probably hard to obtain.  And though celiac disease is
not new, I don't believe that it was recognized until recently, and I
wouldn't be surprised if there are significant parts of the world where
it is not yet understood as a dietary problem.

Dale

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72attendees mailing list
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---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:02:44 +0100

> against our goal of being accessible to an international audience.

What is the basis for you claim that such venues are more expensive than other 
venues we go to.  (For example, can you list some of each type that the IETF has 
been to?)

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net
_______________________________________________
72attendees mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/72attendees

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:10:32 -0700

Dave Crocker wrote:
> What is the basis for you claim that such venues are more expensive than 
> other venues we go to.  (For example, can you list some of each type 
> that the IETF has been to?)

ask alcatel lucent to cost out the potential venues for this meeting. 
since we claim this venue meets one one of the assumptions and one or 
more of the others meets the other set it shouldn't be rocket science.

This of course only one of the problems in the set so considering it in 
isolation isn't productive.

---

From: Yoav Nir <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:12:06 +0100

Large, international conferences with a wide mixture of people tend to  
be in large cities and so cost more. The Hilton in Chicago was  
expensive, more so than this place. If we'd have the meeting in New  
York, that would be even more expensive. Move the conference to, say,  
Salt Lake City, and you'll have a harder time finding kosher food, but  
prices are bound to be lower.

On Jul 31, 2008, at 11:02 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:

> What is the basis for you claim that such venues are more expensive  
> than other venues we go to.  (For example, can you list some of each  
> type that the IETF has been to?)
>
> d/
> -- 
>
>  Dave Crocker
> Scanned by Check Point Total Security Gateway.
>

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:12:27 -0500

Dealing with our dietary restrictions isn't at all difficult if things
are properly planned in advance.  All of us that deal with this know
this, but getting the info individually ahead of a meeting can be
difficult. IN addition, I personally travel early to assess the food
situation. For this meeting, my primary fault was assuming that the food
I could order in the restaurants on Sat/Sun would be available to me at
lunch. If I had known the lunch options in advance, I would have shopped
for a lot more on Sunday (I try to avoid having a lot of leftover food
at the end of meetings, as I consider it very wasteful and of course,
airlines dramatically restrict what I can take home anyways). 

Any decent chef (available at virtually any venue where we would hold a
meeting) is trained in dealing with all of this. The costs are really
minimal, as in most cases it involves leaving out things, using basic
ingredients and fresh foods that don't require a lot of prep. For
example, a salad bar with protein for everyone's restrictions (i.e., no
gluten, kosher meats (for non-vegetarians/vegans) and nuts/beans/tofu
for vegans/vegetarians). The biggest issue for most of us is
cross-contamination (i.e, handling bread and then supposed gluten-free
items or cooking veggies in chicken broth or in oils that have been used
for meats, etc.)  and again decent chefs are aware of this. As well, I
am very happy to provide a detailed list of foods that work for the
majority.  There is an excellent example of food that meats most of our
needs - Cornucopia in Dublin - all vegan/vegetarian - everything labeled
with allergens. The largest hurdle is kosher, which requires a bit more
pre-planning, but as others can support there are many conferences that
provide are able to meet this requirement. 

Also, IMHO, the fact that many of us with these restrictions typically
can't eat ANY or very little of the items offered at breaks means that
we are already paying for something we don't get. So, I don't think the
cost is an issue for this situation at all!

And, I do want to acknowledge that the AMS staff was very gracious in
ensuring that I had a meal I could eat for WG chairs yesterday, so
they're already aware that this can be managed. Thanks!

Regards,
Mary.

--- speaking for many folks here - I've heard offline from quite a few
folks about all these issues ---

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Dave Crocker
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 5:03 AM
To: Dale Worley
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [72attendees] Dietary restrictions

Dale Worley wrote:
> If we use venues used to international conferences and pay full 
> freight, the chefs understand and will deal with all sorts of dietary 

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: Dale Worley <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 06:40:32 -0400

> venues we go to.  (For example, can you list some of each type that the IETF has 

It's possible that the food business is unlike any other, but in all
industries I know anything about, individualized attention from skilled
workers is considerably more expensive than one-size-fits-all products.

> Brandenburg InternetWorking

Does Brandenburg charge the same prices as Infosys?

Dale

---

From: Dale Worley <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:01:48 -0400

On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 05:12 -0500, Mary Barnes wrote:
> difficult. [...]

> ingredients and fresh foods that don't require a lot of prep.

Everything I've heard about food service is that costs are dominated by
labor, not food per se.  And of course, the more skilled the labor, the
more expensive it will be.  At least, that holds in software
engineering, but I see no reason why food service would be different.

Now maybe it *is* of minimal added cost to the venue to make these
provisions.  Perhaps we should provide the venue a list of types and
numbers of specialized food and ask them what the additional price would
be?  That could provide solid data.  (OTOH, that would require prior
notification of the numbers of each dietary restriction -- can we get
solid enough commitments?)

It sounds like proper prior information might be a way to solve this at
minimal cost.  But again, gathering that information is labor-intensive,
must be done on-site, and requires someone who is sufficiently
competent, so that isn't going to be free, either.  What is a good
method of accomplishing that?

Now let me be clear, I'm not trying to argue for or against any
particular solution.  I just want people to understand this isn't an
easy problem, and that we need to expend some care and effort to
construct a good solution, with attention paid to all the constraints.
If we spend our efforts just complaining that it *should be easy*, we
won't construct a workable solution, and the problem will keep
recurring.  The only real evidence we have is that we haven't solved the
problem yet, which is pretty good evidence that there is no known
solution which works in practice.

Dale

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:04:13 -0500

Dale, 

Do you have food allergies or dietary restrictions?  I've been dealing
with them for 5+ years, as well has having a vegetarian child and have A
LOT of experience in dealing with these issues. I know A LOT about
nutrition. I've attended conferences in the past that could cater to the
majority of us with these issues. I have many, many food restrictions.
The hotel here has been accomodating when I've been able to reach staff
to deal with this. These folks are professionals and when they're
informed, they know exactly how to meet needs.

I have volunteered to help deal with the situation for future meetings
and think it's possible to have a very workable solution.
It should not difficult to query the information during registration.
I've done it for other conferences - I do it when I send my kids to camp
-  and I'd be happy to sort through it the information and work with AMS
and the venue to at least try to accommodate us.   AFAIK, this has never
been attempted before. 

In terms of cost, if I can pay the same price for a YMCA/Campfire, etc.
camp for my kids to have their dietary restrictions accomodated, then I
think major hotels/conference venues for which we pay a premium for
service can accommodate us. Indeed, the chefs at such would likely be
insulted to hear that people don't believe they can do their jobs -this
is a part of their education/training. When I have been able to order
food at this venue, it's been handled exceptionally well.

Finally, I will add that the reason this problem has been such a HUGE
issue at this venue is due to the poor accessiblity to food markets. In
Paris, we just all shopped in the nice market in the venue. In
Philadelphia, there was Residence Inn next door and two Whole Foods
within walking distance - as a result I only had to eat at restaurants
twice and could easily bring my lunch from the hotel in my lunch cooler
if needed for lunch meetings or just pop back over to the hotel.  

Regards,
Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Dale Worley
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:02 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [72attendees] Dietary restrictions

Dale

---

From: "Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:41:07 +0300

Hi everybody,

I have some experience with allergies having being allergic for all my life,
them getting worse in the last 8-9 years, noticing in the last 10-15 years
how things that didn't use to be in some food, now is there, and having an
allergic child. However, unlike Mary, I know absolutely nothing about
nutrition.

However, what I have noticed (after living in different countries) that all
countries handle different food restrictions very differently. For instance
Finland, the general knowledge of allergies is relatively high due the
amount of allergies we have. However, the knowledge of religious food
restrictions is very low. Countries that have relatively few allergies (and
still relatively homogenous religious population) have absolutely no
knowledge what so ever on any restrictions. My Italian father-in-law doesn't
believe that allergies even really exist - and he is a doctor. He doesn't
understand that he is not supposed to give things that my daughter cannot
eat - even in small doses. People think I'm a snob not to eat some stuff,
and they continue to tell me I could at least taste it to see if I like it.

In US, there is quite a bit of knowledge for different food restrictions.
However, people might not know what is actually in the food (trying to find
out if something is done with sugar or corn syrup in a restaurant is
according my experience practically impossible).

I just wanted to show here that there are very different approaches to food
restrictions in different countries. What seems to be easy, simple, or cheap
in some countries, is not that easy in others. Also definitions of a
restrictions are very different.

I'm afraid that the IETF does not have the means to address these issues
totally. We generally don't offer other food than the snacks during the
breaks, and they try to please the general public of the IETF. It is clear
we cannot please everybody. (I cannot ever eat the cookies during the
breaks. There is always something there I'm allergic to.)

I think the only solution is for us with food restrictions to help
ourselves, and seek the IETF's and local host's help whenever it is
available. We could have a group of volunteers and do a "food restrictions
support group". E.g. We could have a Wiki page in the meeting.ietf.org where
we could write out knowledge of the local food places, and we together could
for instance organize drives to the local super market, if needed.

Would people be interested in forming such formal group?

Cheers,

Jonne.

-- 
Jonne Soininen
Nokia Siemens Networks

Tel: +358 40 527 46 34
E-mail: [email-masked]

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:58:10 -0500

I would be happy to work with you to setup up a forum/mailing list or
whatever so that we can cooperatively share information.  I have a Yahoo
group for my local support group and we could setup something similar
collecting information for all the cities we visit (I do that anyways
whenever I travel).  There are resources no the Internet from which we
can pull materials ahead of time. 

I do have a lot of knowledge, due to my own experiences and that of my
children and I run a local food allergy/sensitivity support group (with
medical/nutritional consultants).  And, you are right about your FIL -
most MDs have only a single course on nutrition - most know nothing. 

I honestly believe we could address all restrictions - one of my points
is to be served only "plain" foods (i.e., any sauces/seasonings on the
side, etc.). I have too many food restrictions to list or provide, so I
always specify to prepare my food in as simple a manner as possible.
For example, today, I got a plate with some nice baby lettuce, plain
cooked chicken and carrots. All nicely and freshly prepared. 

My expectation in terms of IETF would be at least provide us the ability
to get lunch - a small buffet of "safe" foods could be provided. It
might get slightly boring BUT I would rather be bored than hungry (we
also have diabetics that MUST eat regular healthy meals).  We can
certainly bring our own snacks or potentially hope there's a fruit we
can eat. I'd also be willing to talk to vendors to get sample snacks for
folks like us (many will do that for marketing). 

I'm not debating that IETF shouldn't ensure that there are quick, easy,
SAD food for folks that don't have these issues. But, having a hotel
make it very difficult to order from a menu isn't effective for those of
us with dietary restrictions.  

Regards,
Mary. 
--I will also make a side comment that if we were to host IETF meetings
in a country or at a venue that did not allow or provide alcohol -
telling everyone to just manage to bring in their own (and deal with
airport security/customs that might not allow such for folks with
particular preferences), I would imagine we'd have TREMENDOUSLY more
discussion on this list :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 7:41 AM
To: Barnes, Mary (RICH2:AR00); Dale Worley; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [72attendees] Dietary restrictions

Hi everybody,

I have some experience with allergies having being allergic for all my
life, them getting worse in the last 8-9 years, noticing in the last
10-15 years how things that didn't use to be in some food, now is there,
and having an allergic child. However, unlike Mary, I know absolutely
nothing about nutrition.

However, what I have noticed (after living in different countries) that
all countries handle different food restrictions very differently. For
instance Finland, the general knowledge of allergies is relatively high
due the amount of allergies we have. However, the knowledge of religious
food restrictions is very low. Countries that have relatively few
allergies (and still relatively homogenous religious population) have
absolutely no knowledge what so ever on any restrictions. My Italian
father-in-law doesn't believe that allergies even really exist - and he
is a doctor. He doesn't understand that he is not supposed to give
things that my daughter cannot eat - even in small doses. People think
I'm a snob not to eat some stuff, and they continue to tell me I could
at least taste it to see if I like it.

In US, there is quite a bit of knowledge for different food
restrictions.
However, people might not know what is actually in the food (trying to
find out if something is done with sugar or corn syrup in a restaurant
is according my experience practically impossible).

I just wanted to show here that there are very different approaches to
food restrictions in different countries. What seems to be easy, simple,
or cheap in some countries, is not that easy in others. Also definitions
of a restrictions are very different.

I'm afraid that the IETF does not have the means to address these issues
totally. We generally don't offer other food than the snacks during the
breaks, and they try to please the general public of the IETF. It is
clear we cannot please everybody. (I cannot ever eat the cookies during
the breaks. There is always something there I'm allergic to.)

I think the only solution is for us with food restrictions to help
ourselves, and seek the IETF's and local host's help whenever it is
available. We could have a group of volunteers and do a "food
restrictions support group". E.g. We could have a Wiki page in the
meeting.ietf.org where we could write out knowledge of the local food
places, and we together could for instance organize drives to the local
super market, if needed.

Cheers,

Jonne.

> with them for 5+ years, as well has having a vegetarian child and have

> A LOT of experience in dealing with these issues. I know A LOT about 
> nutrition. I've attended conferences in the past that could cater to 
> the majority of us with these issues. I have many, many food
restrictions.
> The hotel here has been accomodating when I've been able to reach 
> staff to deal with this. These folks are professionals and when 
> they're informed, they know exactly how to meet needs.
> 

> camp for my kids to have their dietary restrictions accomodated, then 
> I think major hotels/conference venues for which we pay a premium for 
> insulted to hear that people don't believe they can do their jobs 
> -this is a part of their education/training. When I have been able to 
> order food at this venue, it's been handled exceptionally well.
> 
> issue at this venue is due to the poor accessiblity to food markets. 
> In Paris, we just all shopped in the nice market in the venue. In 

> twice and could easily bring my lunch from the hotel in my lunch 
> cooler if needed for lunch meetings or just pop back over to the
hotel.
>> Any decent chef (available at virtually any venue where we would hold

>> a

> Everything I've heard about food service is that costs are dominated 
> by labor, not food per se.  And of course, the more skilled the labor,

> the more expensive it will be.  At least, that holds in software 
> numbers of specialized food and ask them what the additional price 
> would be?  That could provide solid data.  (OTOH, that would require 
> prior notification of the numbers of each dietary restriction -- can 
> we get solid enough commitments?)
> 
> It sounds like proper prior information might be a way to solve this 
> at minimal cost.  But again, gathering that information is 
> labor-intensive, must be done on-site, and requires someone who is 
> sufficiently competent, so that isn't going to be free, either.  What 
> is a good method of accomplishing that?
> 
> recurring.  The only real evidence we have is that we haven't solved 
> the problem yet, which is pretty good evidence that there is no known 

--
Jonne Soininen
Nokia Siemens Networks

Tel: +358 40 527 46 34

---

From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:24:08 -0400

There are some simple "best practices" that some venues have already  
done and that could be "standardized", such as always providing fruit  
(and yoghurt) at breaks and making sure that non-obvious food items  
(such as at the Sunday reception) are labeled. My personal allergy is  
peanuts, where labeling goes a long way.

In Dublin, many restaurants seem to manage this reasonably well. (I  
think the Hilton chain seems to do this as a matter of corporate  
practice for buffets.) The restaurant I visited last night had menu  
labels of N (for "contains nuts") and C ("suitable for celiac") and V  
("vegetarian").

The Google cafeteria seems to have a whole set of symbols that work in  
a mass-feeding environment.

I'm probably a bit naive on this, but simply providing the hosting  
hotel with appropriate hints could go a long way.

In some cities, there are now meal/food ordering services, such as  
FreshDirect in NYC. In other cities, some grocery stores deliver food  
for a reasonable charge. In NYC, you can probably have any kind of  
restaurant food delivered. A bit of exploration by a few volunteers,  
including working with the hotel on drop-off arrangements, can make  
things easier for everyone.

Henning

On Jul 31, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo) wrote:

> clear
> restrictions
>> staff
>> cooler
>> would

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 06:39:29 -0700

Henning Schulzrinne wrote:

>suitable for celiac

Maybe I'm not clear on something but I've recieved potatoes with 
virtually every meal so I'm not so I'm a little unclear the challenge 
posed by a gluten intolerance in this particular location.

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:45:12 -0500

I can't eat potatoes (many of us have multiple food allergies) and
potatos don't provide much protein. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Joel Jaeggli
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 8:39 AM
To: Henning Schulzrinne
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [72attendees] Dietary restrictions

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 06:59:36 -0700

> potatos don't provide much protein. 

It would necessarily follow that ordinary celiac dietary limitations 
wouldn't be useful to you either.

---

From: "Spencer Dawkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:15:36 -0500

I saw a spectacularly helpful note from Jonne (and Mary thought it was the 
right answer) suggesting that the people who are affected work together to 
figure out what needs to happen.

Let's wait for at least one IETF cycle and see if this is sufficient, and 
then reopen the thread if it's not.

OK?

Spencer

---

From: "Dan Wing" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:29:00 +0100

Henning wrote:
 
> The restaurant I visited last night had menu labels of N 
> (for "contains nuts") and C ("suitable for celiac") and V  
> ("vegetarian").

Even outside of Dublin I found many restaurants here in 
Ireland list celiac and vegetarian options on their menus.  So
there is certainly an awareness of dietary restrictions here -- 
more of a than my experience with similar class restaurants in 
the US or Canada.

I agree that the IETF should make the hotel staff aware of 
religious and dietary restrictions of our attendees -- for all
we know, we might not just be the geekiest meeting they have
ever seen, but we might also be the most diverse.  This is 
especially important at remote sites like Dublin, where it
isn't possible to choose from a nearby restaurant.

But perhaps when attendees learn of the remote location,
they could bring it up on the main IETF mailing list.

-d

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:34:56 -0500

I've gone ahead and setup a doodle to determine the number of folks
impacted and the sorts of things that are restricted:
http://www.doodle.ch/yih8zhd2k9mxys6b

I do plan on renting a car when I arrive in Minneapolis to get my food
for the week and I'll be shopping on Sat. (time TBD) at Whole Foods. If
you're interested in going with me, let me know (FCFS) offline. In
addition, if folks have a few items they'd like me to pick up for them,
I'd be happy to do so. I will send just a single reminder on this topic
when the IETF-73 list is setup, as I do realize for a number of you all,
this discussion is just annoying. 

Also, if folks could contact me offline, I'm happy to coordinate setting
up some other form of communication for us. 

Regards,
Mary.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Spencer Dawkins
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:16 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [72attendees] Dietary restrictions

I saw a spectacularly helpful note from Jonne (and Mary thought it was
the right answer) suggesting that the people who are affected work
together to figure out what needs to happen.

Let's wait for at least one IETF cycle and see if this is sufficient,
and then reopen the thread if it's not.

OK?

Spencer

---

From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:44:01 +0200

FWIW - shopping on Saturday is something that most people eating kosher
would not do. 

Dan

> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Mary Barnes
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 5:35 PM
> To: Spencer Dawkins; [email-masked]
> I've gone ahead and setup a doodle to determine the number of 
> folks impacted and the sorts of things that are restricted:
> I do plan on renting a car when I arrive in Minneapolis to 
> get my food for the week and I'll be shopping on Sat. (time 
> TBD) at Whole Foods. If you're interested in going with me, 
> let me know (FCFS) offline. In addition, if folks have a few 
> items they'd like me to pick up for them, I'd be happy to do 
> so. I will send just a single reminder on this topic when the 
> IETF-73 list is setup, as I do realize for a number of you 
> all, this discussion is just annoying. 
> 
> Also, if folks could contact me offline, I'm happy to 
> coordinate setting up some other form of communication for us. 
> 
> Regards,
> Mary.
> 
> I saw a spectacularly helpful note from Jonne (and Mary 
> thought it was the right answer) suggesting that the people 
> who are affected work together to figure out what needs to happen.
> 
> Let's wait for at least one IETF cycle and see if this is 
> sufficient, and then reopen the thread if it's not.
> 
> OK?
> 
> Spencer 
> 
>

---

From: "Even, Roni" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:51:23 +0300

Dan,
Mary offered to buy for them, and I think that people who eat Kosher can
have Mary buy them the food on Saturday.

Roni Even

> From: [email-masked] [mailto:72attendees-
> [email-masked]] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 5:44 PM
> To: Mary Barnes; Spencer Dawkins; [email-masked]
> > [mailto:[email-masked]]

---

From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:51:35 +0200

OK, this would be fine I think. 

Dan

> From: Even, Roni [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 5:51 PM
> To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Mary Barnes; Spencer Dawkins; 
> [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: [72attendees] Dietary restrictions
> 
> Dan,
> Mary offered to buy for them, and I think that people who eat 
> Kosher can have Mary buy them the food on Saturday.
> 
> 
> Roni Even
> 
> > > I do plan on renting a car when I arrive in Minneapolis to get my 
> > > food for the week and I'll be shopping on Sat. (time
> > > TBD) at Whole Foods. If you're interested in going with 
> me, let me 
> > > know (FCFS) offline. In addition, if folks have a few 
> items they'd 
> > > like me to pick up for them, I'd be happy to do so. I 
> will send just 
> > > a single reminder on this topic when the
> > > IETF-73 list is setup, as I do realize for a number of 
> you all, this 
> > > discussion is just annoying.
> > >
> > > Also, if folks could contact me offline, I'm happy to coordinate 
> > > setting up some other form of communication for us.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mary.
> > >
> thought it 
> > > was the right answer) suggesting that the people who are affected 
> > > work together to figure out what needs to happen.
> > >