Subject: [72attendees] Plug exchange

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:15:45 +0200

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has a spare British/Irish plug for Apple  
power supplies. I'm willing to trade for a continental European one.

In Philadelphia I got myself an extra power supply so I have an  
American plug and (of course) a bunch of European ones, so with a  
British one I should have a fairly comprehensive collection.

In case large numbers of IETFers are interested in trading power  
plugs, please reply privately and I'll summerize to the list.

Iljitsch
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From: Dale Worley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:31:46 -0400

>From what I can tell, the power standard in Dublin is 220V 50Hz using
British Standard 1363 plugs (listed as "Type G" in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#History_of_plugs_and_sockets and http://www.ita.doc.gov/media/Publications/pdf/current2002FINAL.pdf).

Will the meeting room power systems use these plugs?

According to the Wikipedia article, sockets to this standard often have
shutters over the live and neutral connections that are opened by the
insertion of the (longer) earth pin.  This implies that a simple
two-prong plug adapter might not suffice, as it would not open the
shutters.

I once had trouble in the UK with grounding.  I had expected to borrow a
UK cable for my IBM power-brick, but discovered that my US power-brick
only accepted 2-conductor cables, and not the 3-conductor cable that was
required by UK standards.

Dale

---

From: "Alex McMahon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:44:24 +0100

Hi Dale,

Yes, the meeting room power systems will use these plugs

Alex

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Dale Worley <[email-masked]> wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#History_of_plugs_and_socketsand
> http://www.ita.doc.gov/media/Publications/pdf/current2002FINAL.pdf).
>

---

From: "Clive D.W. Feather" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:48:01 +0100

> Will the meeting room power systems use these plugs?

I would hope so. I've not attended IETF for a few years, but I would hope
they were geared up for UK, European, and US plugs. Of course, if it's just
left up to the hotel then I expect there will only be UK-standard sockets.

> two-prong plug adapter might not suffice, as it would not open the

Wikipedia is wrong, as usual. Sockets to this standard *ALWAYS* have a
shutter opened by the longer ground pin.

I've seen cheap adaptors in airports that take a US plug and present a UK
plug to the world - obviously I'm more interested in the converse. That may
be your simplest answer.

If your laptop/whatever has an IEC socket, then shops in Dublin should be
able to sell you a replacement kettle lead - most kettles here that have
detachable leads use IEC sockets.

[By "IEC" I mean the three prong irregular hexagonal plug/socket, something
like this shape:

      _______
     /   |   \
    /  | | |  \
    |  |   |  |
    +---------+

Note also that most leads have moulded-on plugs.]

> required by UK standards.

Not sure what this refers to. I have plenty of devices around where the
power end of the brick is a two pin figure-of-8 shell plug.

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather  | Work:  <[email-masked]>   | Tel:    +44 20 8495 6138
Internet Expert     | Home:  <[email-masked]>  | Fax:    +44 870 051 9937
Demon Internet      | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646
THUS plc            |                            |
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From: Dale Worley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:52:20 -0400

> power end of the brick is a two pin figure-of-8 shell plug.

The US IBM Thinkpad power brick uses a figure-of-8 plug (IEC C7).  But
the UK IBM Thinkpad power brick and cord uses a "Mickey Mouse" plug with
a ground conductor (IEC C5).  So the UK cord will not go into the US
power brick.

Dale

---

From: Dale Worley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:57:25 -0400

On Fri, 2008-07-18 at 16:48 +0100, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
> they were geared up for UK, European, and US plugs.

It's an interesting idea, but at least at the North American IETFs I've
attended, they had only North American power and plugs.

Dale

---

From: Paul Hoffman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:00:02 -0700

>shutter opened by the longer ground pin.

I haven't been to the UK since the last IETF there, and I have 
forgotten how the adapters work. I have two that take US in and put 
out the big three for the UK. However, the "longer ground pin" on 
these adapters is just plastic, not metal. This plastic bit will 
still open the shutter, yes?

This is a timely question because the hotel is far away from shops 
that might sell the "right" adapter.

If folks have extra adapters, maybe bring them along so that people 
who didn't bring the right one won't have to spend a few hours going 
to town for one on Sunday or, worse, Monday.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:33:04 -0400

Alternatively, One US/UK  adapter, and an extension cord with multiple 
US-Style female receptacles.
Janet

[email-masked] wrote on 07/18/2008 01:00:02 PM:

...

---

From: Joe Touch <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:29:50 -0700

Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
| Dale Worley said:
|> >From what I can tell, the power standard in Dublin is 220V 50Hz using
|> British Standard 1363 plugs (listed as "Type G" in
|>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#History_of_plugs_and_sockets
and http://www.ita.doc.gov/media/Publications/pdf/current2002FINAL.pdf).
|>
|> Will the meeting room power systems use these plugs?
|
| I would hope so. I've not attended IETF for a few years, but I would hope
| they were geared up for UK, European, and US plugs. Of course, if it's
just
| left up to the hotel then I expect there will only be UK-standard sockets.

They have typically had local plugs. I use a universal adapter, that has
a plastic pin to insert for the shutter.

Joe

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:17:58 -0700 (PDT)

Suggestion:

Bring an OPEN ENDED cable to Dublin, ask the host to buy a box of 
plugs and re-sell them. Attach plug to cable, done.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj

---

From: "Clive D.W. Feather" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:54:15 +0100

> still open the shutter, yes?

Yes - it's a purely mechanical operation (the shutter is a plastic inverted
T with a bevelled top and a spring underneath it - pushing in the ground
pin pushes the T downwards against the spring, revealing the holes).

---

From: "Clive D.W. Feather" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:01:38 +0100

> a ground conductor (IEC C5).  So the UK cord will not go into the US

Okay, based on <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_connector>:
* Much computing equipment has a C14 on it (this is what I think of as an
"IEC connector"). A UK/Irish kettle lead will normally have a C15 end on
it; this will fit into the C14 (and the curly lead keeps things tidy).

We have both C5 and C7 equipment connectors here; why IBM chose to use
different ones in different countries, I can't say.

---

From: Derek Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:02:07 -0400

> pin pushes the T downwards against the spring, revealing the holes).

In other words you literally stick a fork in it.  ;)

-derek

---

From: Yoav Nir <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:08:52 +0300

> In other words you literally stick a fork in it.  ;)

Sticking a for in an electric socket is NOT RECOMMENDED.
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From: Jaap Akkerhuis <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:37:21 +0200

> Sticking a for in an electric socket is NOT RECOMMENDED.

Use cookies instead

	jaap

---

From: Keith Mitchell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:52:32 -0400

> two-prong plug adapter might not suffice, as it would not open the

This is generally rectifiable with a screwdriver carefully inserted into
the *EARTH* pin (not that I'd recommend this of course..:)

> required by UK standards.

Leads with 3-pin UK plugs to 2-pin power bricks are commonly available,
I've never found it to be a problem in practice.

Keith

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:01:45 -0400

--On Friday, 18 July, 2008 11:31 -0400 Dale Worley
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_AC_power_plugs_and_socke
> ts#History_of_plugs_and_sockets and
> According to the Wikipedia article, sockets to this standard
> often have shutters over the live and neutral connections that
> are opened by the insertion of the (longer) earth pin.  This
> implies that a simple two-prong plug adapter might not
> suffice, as it would not open the shutters.

That is correct.  Most "universal" plug adaptors have some sort
of dead pin arrangement (often of plastic, rather than metal),
whose purpose is to jam into the shutter-opening earth pin
location and open the shutters.  

> I once had trouble in the UK with grounding.  I had expected
> to borrow a UK cable for my IBM power-brick, but discovered
> that my US power-brick only accepted 2-conductor cables, and
> not the 3-conductor cable that was required by UK standards.

Strange adapters are readily available and I have UK power
cables that have things that look like BS 1363 plugs at one end
(fuses and all, but nothing connected to the earthing pin and a
C7 (two-pn "figure 8") at the other end.  

The adapters I keep wishing I could find would have IEC C14
(female version of the familiar "computer power connector") at
one end and C7 ("figure 8") and C5 ("Mickey Mouse") at the
other.  But, so far, no luck commercially.

   john

---

From: Jaap Akkerhuis <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:18:48 +0200

Yes. Any object that fit will do that as far as I remember. Cookies
might work.

	jaap

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:05:00 -0400

> the *EARTH* pin (not that I'd recommend this of course..:)

And for the benefit of North Americans that are anything like those  
I've experienced here in electrician supply outlets, "earth" means  
"ground".

[I thought this was obvious, but it took many bewildering exchanges  
before anybody was able to make any sense of what I was saying while I  
persisted in using the word "earth". Substituting "ground" made  
everything good again.]

Joe

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:05:59 -0700 (PDT)

By far the most elegant solution to this problem is a flat plastic 
"tray" which has a protruding ground pin (made of plastic of course)
and ROUND holes which allows any EUROPEAN style plug to be used in
a UK socket. 

These things are readily available in Singapore, Hong Kong and 
Malaysia, I will bring as many as I can find in my collection. 
I'll ask here publically that anyone from the above mentioned places 
bring a bunch. They cost something like $1 for 3 or 4.

By the way, if anyone needs a Sascom, I have a couple of those too,
see: http://www.yikes.com/~ole/store/kyoto/Gadgets.html

... and I will restock on my next trip to Japan after the IETF in 
November.

Cheers,

Ole

PS. Check organdemo.info for details on our next gig, August 26 in 
Christchurch, New Zealand. Find an excuse to be there :-)

Ole J. Jacobsen

---

From: Dale Worley <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:35:01 -0400

> the *EARTH* pin (not that I'd recommend this of course..:)

I was thinking of something non-conductive, like the traditional
matchstick.  But matchsticks may be less common than plug converters
now.

However, I have now verified that Radio Shack stocks a plug converter
that suffices:  The male end is a 3-prong UK/Irish plug, and the female
end is a *2*-prong US (actually sort-of-universal) plug.  So you may
need a 2-prong-to-3-prong US adapter also.

And I am sure a shop in the Dublin airport has what one needs.

Dale

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:05:14 -0700 (PDT)

Travellers to the UK should note that you will ALSO find a number of 
outlets (used mainly for lamps and other lower-current devices) that
have three ROUND pins instead of square ones, and it might be a good
idea to bring an adapter for that as well.

The plug I am talking about is shown on the LEFT in this picture:

http://www.yikes.com/~ole/plugs/plugs-uk.jpg

WonPro makes really good adapters:

http://www.europlugs.com/Wonpro_catalog/WA_Plug_Adapters_Ivory_Overview.htm

You will want a WA-7 and a WA-10

These adapters will take "anything" on the input side.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen

---

From: Stephen Farrell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:12:32 +0100

> idea to bring an adapter for that as well.

Maybe. But I'd say it might be 20 years since I've seen one of those
in use in Ireland. IMO you can leave that one at home.

S.

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:11:20 -0700 (PDT)

That's good to hear.

UK is not Ireland for sure. You will however find them in some of the 
lounges at Heathrow, a place I suspect many will be (if only 
reluctantly) passing through.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008, Stephen Farrell wrote:

> 
> 
> Ole Jacobsen wrote:
> > Travellers to the UK should note that you will ALSO find a number of outlets
> > (used mainly for lamps and other lower-current devices) that

---

From: Love Hörnquist Åstrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:21:12 +0100

21 jul 2008 kl. 19.12 skrev Stephen Farrell:

> Ole Jacobsen wrote:
>> Travellers to the UK should note that you will ALSO find a number  
>> of outlets (used mainly for lamps and other lower-current devices)  
>> that

I got three of those in my apartment here in Dublin, it seem to be  
used for outlets controlled by the wall switch....

Love

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:28:37 +0200

> in use in Ireland. IMO you can leave that one at home.

As we're beating this horse to a slow, painful death anyway: please  
note that in Europe (yes, that includes Ireland and the UK) we use 230  
volts. So in addition to getting a converter plug, make sure your  
laptop and other electronics can handle this. (230 volts is the center  
voltage with tightened margins, falling within the specs for both the  
old 220 and 240 voltages.)

I'm still looking to trade one of my European Apple power supply plugs  
for a British one, by the way.
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From: John Dickinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:50:15 +0100

> Will the meeting room power systems use these plugs?

I hope so - real plugs that go in and stay in :)

> required by UK standards.

I don't know about standards but if you mean one of these

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=1168&&source=14&doy=18m7

then they are really common. My macbook power supply uses one.

John

---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:33:52 -0700

I havent seen one in the UK in thirty years.
 
What you do sometimes find is the use of non-standard plugs to discourage unauthorized use of outlets. And last time I stayed in a London hotel they had both UK and continental sockets in the room.

________________________________

From: [email-masked] on behalf of Ole Jacobsen
Sent: Mon 7/21/2008 2:11 PM
To: Stephen Farrell
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [72attendees] Power in Dublin -- one more thing

That's good to hear.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:57:10 -0400

I don't think the Dubliners would take kindly to being called "UK"

---

From: Ed Jankiewicz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:30:27 -0400

But I have on good authority it is now OK to order a "black and tan" in 
a pub.  Unless someone on the list knows that it would be politically 
incorrect to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tan

-- 
Ed Jankiewicz - SRI International
Fort Monmouth Branch Office - IPv6 Research 
Supporting DISA Standards Engineering Branch
732-389-1003 or  [email-masked]

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:49:34 -0400

On 21 Jul 2008, at 14:28, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:

> As we're beating this horse to a slow, painful death anyway:

That surely is the point of this list, given experience of previous  
such lists :-)

Joe

---

From: "Arnoud van Wijk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:04:18 +0200

Yes...from the top of my mind:
How to get hot water from weird Prague Hotel bath tab.
Smoking here and there and seeping smoke where we do not want it.
Cookies, peanuts and chocolate.
Water bottles not there we need water.
Noise of construction.
And now the famous endless discussion about UK plug standards used in UK and
Eire. Why? 

I may have missed even more stuff. But I am going to suggest that we have
IETF-Attendees list (this list) for relevant IETF news and IETF-chitchat for
the rest. Is that an idea? :-)

/Arnoud

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:72attendees-
> [email-masked]] On Behalf Of Joe Abley
> Sent: dinsdag 22 juli 2008 16:50
> To: Iljitsch van Beijnum
> Cc: [email-masked]

---

From: "Theo Zourzouvillys" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:06:32 +0100

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 7:33 PM, Hallam-Baker, Phillip
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> What you do sometimes find is the use of non-standard plugs to discourage
> unauthorized use of outlets. And last time I stayed in a London hotel they
> had both UK and continental sockets in the room.

Actually, they seem to have started to make a come back in modern developments.

At least 3 new-build flats and one house I looked at buying in London
in the last 2 years have had these scattered around the place for
lamps.  The light switches then controlled these plugs as well as the
overhead lights.

 ~ Theo

-- 
Theo Zourzouvillys
Chief Technical Officer
VoIP.co.uk

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:10:54 +0200

> the rest. Is that an idea? :-)

And history repeats itself: these lists were created to syphon the  
chit chat off of the ietf@ietf list...
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From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:13:39 -0700

> chit chat off of the ietf@ietf list...

Indeed, I thought ietf-event-related yakking was the whole point of  
the list.   I have to say that I found the RSS feed from the last IETF  
to be more useful for official information.

---

From: Stanislav Shalunov <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:06:07 -0700

I unsubscribed from the list twice (and yes, I am familiar with  
driving mailman).  I got silently put on the list again -- perhaps a  
bug, or maybe the idea is that everyone attending must be on the list.

Shouldn't chitchat go to a least where unsubscribe works?

-- Stas

-- 
Stanislav Shalunov
BitTorrent Inc
personal: http://shlang.com

---

From: "Drew Dvorshak" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:07:43 -0400

I am having exactly the same problem and found myself back on the list this
morning after having been confirmed unsubscribed for a 3rd time.

Andrew Dvorshak
Sr. Mgr., Organizational Membership
1775 Wiehle Ave., Ste. 102
Reston, VA 20910-5108
USA
 
[email-masked]
Office: +1 703 439 2129
Fax: +1 703 326 9881

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Stanislav Shalunov
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 3:06 PM
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [72attendees] Power in Dublin -- one more thing

-- Stas

---

From: Wes Hardaker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:37:59 -0700

>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:10:54 +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]> said:

IvB> And history repeats itself: these lists were created to syphon the
IvB> chit chat off of the ietf@ietf list...

It's a new dead horse every 4 months.  That's much better than beating a
very old pre-beat-up horse.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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