Subject: [72attendees] Anyone need a room?

From: Samuel Weiler <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:18:05 -0400 (EDT)

I have a reservation at the Citywest hotel that I don't need.  I'm not 
sure if I can transfer it or not, but I'm willing to try.  Let me know 
if you need one?

-- Sam
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From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:41:16 -0400

Samuel Weiler wrote:

> sure if I can transfer it or not, but I'm willing to try.

1. There are rooms still available at Citywest - Reservations: +(00) 353 
1 401 0418
2. Cancellations: According to the contract individuals can cancel a 
reservation without penalty until 3 days prior to check in/arrival.  In 
case of cancellation less than 3 days prior to event or non-arrival or 
no-show, the Hotel may charge up to one nights stay as cancellation fee.
3. Early Departure Fee: An early departure fee of 50.00 EUR will be 
applied to all rooms that do not notify the front desk within 24 hours 
of an early check out. Hotel will confirm with guest at the time of 
their check in the scheduled departure date.
4. Rate Period: The IETF rate will be honored 3 days prior and 3 days 
after the event.
5. Guest Name Substitution: Names may be substituted for reserved rooms 
without penalty up to 14 days prior to the event.

http://www.ietf.org/meetings/72/72-hotels.html

Ray

>   Let me know if you need one?
>
> -- Sam

---

From: alain aina <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:52:40 +0000

hi all,

I have to cancel my trip to dublin as after 3 weeks, there is no  
information about my visa application sent to dublin. I thought  the  
event organizers have talked to the immigration service as i don't  
really think one can really live without passport for 6 to 7 weeks as  
needed by the immigration service to process visa applications.

thanks

--alain

---

From: "Vijay Devarapalli" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:00:51 -0700

Hi Alain,

You should check with them on the status. I was told it would take 6
weeks, but got it in little over two weeks. Another person I know was
told it would take 4 more weeks, but when he called up and spoke to
them, they speeded up the process and sent it back sooner.

Ray, I think we should avoid any country that takes more than 2 weeks
for issuing a visa in the future. Being without the passport for more
than 2 weeks, especially when you are not residing in your home
country, is not a option for most people.

Vijay

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 7:52 AM, alain aina <[email-masked]> wrote:
> hi all,
>
> I have to cancel my trip to dublin as after 3 weeks, there is no information
> about my visa application sent to dublin. I thought  the event organizers
> have talked to the immigration service as i don't really think one can
> really live without passport for 6 to 7 weeks as needed by the immigration
> service to process visa applications.
>
>
> thanks
>
> --alain

---

From: Ted Hardie <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:28:35 -0700

At 8:00 AM -0700 7/23/08, Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>for issuing a visa in the future.

The problem is "2 weeks for" whom?  Almost every country has one
or two countries for which visa processing takes longer, and for citizens
of some countries the degree of travel freedom is quite low.   Let's
say you're Egyptian and you want the IETF to make it easy for you
to attend.  There are 33 countries where you have visa-free access
or short-term visas can be got at ports of entry.  Here's a list
(gacked from Yahoo Answers):

Africa

-Ghana Visa not required for a stay of max. 90 days
- Guinea Visa not required (every visitor staying longer than 3 months is considered alien resident)
-Kenya Visa required, 3 month visa available on arrival for USD 50
-Madagascar Visa required, 90-day visa can be obtained on arrival for MGA 140,000
-Sudan Visa not required for a stay of max. 1 month
-Togo Visa required, which can be obtained on arrival for max. 7 days (passport of passenger will be confiscated ; next day passenger has to collect passport and visa at the police station)
-Uganda Visa required, which can be obtained on arrival (fees : USD 50 for single entry / USD 100 for multiple entries with 6-month validity / USD 200 for multiple entries with 1-year validity)
-Zambia Visa required, which can be issued on arrival for period of stay (fee : USD 25 for single entry / USD 40 for double entry / USD 80 for multiple entry)
-Zimbabwe A 3-month holiday or 30-day business visa can be obtained on arrival (fee : between USD 30 and USD 55 depending on the type of visa and number of permitted entries)

Americas

-Dominica Visa not required for stay of max. 21 days
-Grenada Visa not required for stay of max. 14 days provided continuing to a third country
-Haiti Visa not required for a stay of max. 3 months
-Saint Kitts and Nevis Visa not required for a stay of max. 3 months
-Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Visa not required for a max. stay of 1 month

Asia

-Cambodia Visa can be obtained on arrival for a max. stay of 30 days (fee : USD 20)
-Hong Kong Visa not required for stay of max. 3 months
-Indonesia Visa can be obtained on arrival for a max. of 30 days (fee : USD 25)
-Jordan Visa not required for a stay of max. 1 month
-South Korea Visa not required for a touristic stay of max. 30 days
-Laos Visa can be obtained on arrival for a max. of 15 days
-Macau Visa not required for a stay of max. 90 days
-Maldives Visa required, which can be obtained on arrival for a max. stay of 30 days
-Malaysia Visa not required for a stay of max. 3 months
-Nepal Visa can be obtained on arrival for a max. of 150 days (fee : USD 80)
-Syria Visa not required
-Timor-Leste Entry Permit can be obtained on arrival for a max. stay of 30 days (fee: USD 30)
-Yemen Visa can be obtained on arrival for a stay of max. 3 months (free of charge) (Note : Visitors must arrive from Egypt. Otherwise, entry will be denied.)

Oceania

-Cook Islands Visa not required for a stay of up to 21 days
-Federated States of Micronesia Visa not required for a stay of max. 30 days, provided coming for touristic or visitor purposes
--Niue Visa not required for a stay up to 30 days
- Palau Visa required, which can be obtained on arrival for a stay of max. 30 days
-Samoa Visa not required if holding a visitor's permit, which can be obtained on arrival for a stay of max. 60 days
-Tuvalu Visa required, which can be obtained on arrival for a stay of max. one month

We can hold all our Asia meetings in Hong Kong (good dim sum) or Macau (ooh, gambling), but the North
American and European meetings are going to be a problem.

The bottom line is that we can expect the secretariat to help make this easy by making early letters
of invitation available (which they have done).  We can't expect them to fix travel freedom problems generally,
or limit the IETF to meeting in places for which it is easy for everyone to get visas--the reality of the
world  is that this would be the null set.

My personal opinion, mind you, spoken with no hats on,
				Ted
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From: alain aina <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:33:09 +0000

> (gacked from Yahoo Answers):

your example is well taken, but nobody is asking for visa-free access  
or short-term visa at entry ports.

--alain

> -Togo Visa required, which can be obtained on arrival for max. 7  
> days (passport of passenger will be confiscated ; next day passenger  
> has to collect passport and visa at the police station)
> -Uganda Visa required, which can be obtained on arrival (fees : USD  
> 50 for single entry / USD 100 for multiple entries with 6-month  
> validity / USD 200 for multiple entries with 1-year validity)
> -Zambia Visa required, which can be issued on arrival for period of  
> stay (fee : USD 25 for single entry / USD 40 for double entry / USD  
> 80 for multiple entry)
> -Zimbabwe A 3-month holiday or 30-day business visa can be obtained  
> on arrival (fee : between USD 30 and USD 55 depending on the type of  
> visa and number of permitted entries)
>
> Americas
>
> -Yemen Visa can be obtained on arrival for a stay of max. 3 months  
> (free of charge) (Note : Visitors must arrive from Egypt. Otherwise,  
> entry will be denied.)
>
> Oceania
>
> -Federated States of Micronesia Visa not required for a stay of max.  
> 30 days, provided coming for touristic or visitor purposes
> -Samoa Visa not required if holding a visitor's permit, which can be  
> obtained on arrival for a stay of max. 60 days
> of invitation available (which they have done).  We can't expect  
> them to fix travel freedom problems generally,
> or limit the IETF to meeting in places for which it is easy for  
> everyone to get visas--the reality of the

---

From: "David B Harrington" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:44:03 -0400

I think we need to send a letter to all countries saying "can't we all
just get along?"

Until all countries decide they can trust all other countries, then
the visa problem will probably continue to exist and to keep changing,
and the IETF cannot expect to resolve it.
If we try to work around this by choosing which places to hold
meetings based on their visa policies, we will inadvertently bias the
ability of individuals to attend IETF meetings and contribute to IETF
standards.

I think the current team is doing an admirable job of trying to keep
things balanced, and working with individuals and governments to
minimize the problems when they are encountered.

Legislation is not the answer to every problem.

dbh

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of alain aina
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 1:33 PM
> To: Ted Hardie
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [72attendees] Visa issue
> 
> 
> > -Madagascar Visa required, 90-day visa can be obtained on arrival

> > for MGA 140,000
> > -Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Visa not required for a 
> max. stay  
> > of 1 month
> >
> > Asia
> >
> > -Cambodia Visa can be obtained on arrival for a max. stay 
> of 30 days  
> > (fee : USD 20)
> > -Maldives Visa required, which can be obtained on arrival 
> for a max.  
> > stay of 30 days
> > -Nepal Visa can be obtained on arrival for a max. of 150 
> days (fee :  
> > USD 80)
> > -Syria Visa not required
> > -Timor-Leste Entry Permit can be obtained on arrival for a 
> max. stay  
> > of 30 days (fee: USD 30)

> > - Palau Visa required, which can be obtained on arrival for a stay

> > of max. 30 days
> > -Tuvalu Visa required, which can be obtained on arrival for a stay

> > of max. one month
> > The bottom line is that we can expect the secretariat to help make

> > this easy by making early letters

---

From: "Vijay Devarapalli" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:46:40 -0700

Ted,

I am talking about the average visa processing times. Many countries
process the visa the same day. You go to the consulate and you come
out with a visa by the evening. Some countries like China, Japan take
2-3 days. Most European countries takes at most one week for
processing a visa.

There will always be some exceptions. There might someone that might
trigger an extra security check or something like. That could take
many weeks, if not months.

The situation with Ireland is kind of dumb. They say the processing
time is 6 weeks for processing a visa. Mexico is another example.
Takes more than month. I am suggesting we avoid such countries.

Again I am talking about the average time for processing a visa. Not
for exceptions.

Your email sounds more like a rant.

Vijay

---

From: "Vijay Devarapalli" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:48:39 -0700

> Legislation is not the answer to every problem.

Of course. We should at least take into consideration, how long it
takes them to issue a visa on an average. 6 weeks is just too long. I
don't think there are more than a handful of countries that take
longer than 2 weeks.

Vijay

---

From: Ted Hardie <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:59:19 -0700

>or short-term visa at entry ports.

Well, I guess my point wasn't that clear then.  Sorry about that.  What
I'm trying to get across is that there is no way for the Secretariat
to reasonably guarantee any maximum time for visa processing.  There
is simply too much variability in how any specific nation will provide
access to visas to the citizens of other nations.  Visa access for citizens
of nations historically believed to be poorer than the destination
country has been harder essentially since the invention of the passport;
we can't fix that and the secretariat can't guarantee timings for
everyone who might want to come as a result. The data on visa free access
was a proxy for data on visa application timing (since that has much more
variability; "visa free" is essentially the only way to get a guarantee
of timing, at least as much as I understand it).

We should focus on what we can do:  get the destinations set early,
get the invitation letter issuance done early and well, and make sure
that there are reasonable resources on our end to support enquiries
(and hosts can be a *big* help here).    I think this has gotten better,
and I am happy that there is continued effort here.  We can and should
make sure that there are not unreasonable restrictions on travel
for our constituents.  I have favored Canada over the U.S. as
a North American destination for some time for this reason, but
with considerable personal sadness. 

But let's not bind burden's like "2 week maximum" to the neck
of the IAD, okay?  It's not something Ray or anyone else can
guarantee.

Again, my personal 2 cents,
				Ted

---

From: Joe Touch <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:09:46 -0700

Hi, Ted (et al.,)

I do see a few valid points here:

	- some places have more arcane or tedious visa procedures

	- issuing a visa may take too long to be feasible
		for those who have frequent international
		travel, surrendering a passport for more than
		2 weeks might be considered prohibitive

Although we all appreciate that meeting coordination is a multi-party
optimization problem, and that neither of the above can be determined
absolutely in advance, when either of the above is likely to impact a
large number of attendees, it is probably worth considering other
locations.

This sort of consideration is no different from not finding enough hotel
rooms or not finding big enough plenary spaces, except that visa
issuance and timing is a bit more of a slippery slope than a go/no-go test.

Joe

---

From: Lloyd Wood <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:21:16 +0100

At Wednesday 23/07/2008 10:59 -0700, Ted Hardie wrote:
>Visa access for citizens

How far does the US economy have to crash to make US entry easier?

---

From: Laird Popkin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:03:37 -0400 (EDT)

We don't work that way. :-)

- Laird Popkin, CTO, Pando Networks
  mobile: 646/465-0570

---

From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:14:49 +0200

> 		2 weeks might be considered prohibitive

For this reason I have always got away with just leaving a copy of my  
passport during the processing time, and then hand in my passport or a  
day or overnight visa "insertion".

Best regards,

- kurtis -

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:43:10 +0200

> For this reason I have always got away with just leaving a copy of  
> my passport during the processing time, and then hand in my passport  
> or a day or overnight visa "insertion".

I hear that there are people who have two passports, so one can be  
used while the other is out for collecting visas.

However, it seems that the US DHS pays special attention to travelers  
with new passports, and I imagine doubly so for those who have a "new"  
passport with every visit...
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From: "Antoin Verschuren" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:41:54 +0200

> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
> On Behalf Of Iljitsch van Beijnum
> 

Yes, regular travelers can have a second passport in some countries, the reason being that some countries refuse to give a visa if a visa from an enemy state is already in the passport. Having 2 passports permits you to travel the 2 enemy worlds....

Antoin

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:27:34 -0400

On 24 Jul 2008, at 03:43, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:

> However, it seems that the US DHS pays special attention to  
> travelers with new passports, and I imagine doubly so for those who  
> have a "new" passport with every visit...

I used my fresh Canadian passport at the US border literally days  
after it was issued, which was less than a month before I had become a  
Canadian. Within seconds of scanning it I was asked why I was  
travelling on this passport instead of my New Zealand one, and why I  
hadn't had my H1-B visa transferred to the Canadian passport. I had  
not actually opened my mouth to say anything, so my twisted accent  
can't have tipped him off (and in any case, it's a rare day that  
anybody from the US will listen to me speak and conclude that I am  
some kind of New Zealander; I am occasionally accused of being  
Australian, though).

Based on this, I tend to doubt that a new passport is going to be an  
issue at the US border, especially for a regular traveller.

Or perhaps I'm just special.

Joe

---

From: Stig Venaas <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:38:38 +0200

Joe Abley wrote:
> I used my fresh Canadian passport at the US border literally days after 
> it was issued, which was less than a month before I had become a 
> Canadian. Within seconds of scanning it I was asked why I was travelling 
> on this passport instead of my New Zealand one, and why I hadn't had my 
> H1-B visa transferred to the Canadian passport. I had not actually 
> opened my mouth to say anything, so my twisted accent can't have tipped 
> him off (and in any case, it's a rare day that anybody from the US will 
> listen to me speak and conclude that I am some kind of New Zealander; I 
> am occasionally accused of being Australian, though).
> 

I traveled to the US on a new passport about a year ago. The only
unusual question I got (apart from the usual for what and how long) was
when I was last in the US (perhaps to help verify I indeed was the
same person as when I last went).

I managed to get two passports due to frequent traveling and visa
waiting times.

Stig

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:44:25 -0400

On 24 Jul 2008, at 10:41, Marshall Eubanks wrote:

> On Jul 24, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Joe Abley wrote:
>
>>> travelers with new passports, and I imagine doubly so for those  
>>> who have a "new" passport with every visit...
>>
>> after it was issued, which was less than a month before I had  
>> become a Canadian.
>
> I am impressed. How did you get a Canadian passport before you  
> became a Canadian ? Will this scale ?

Therein lies the problem with making statements before coffee.

Joe

---

From: alain aina <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:25:38 +0000

hi all,

I sent yesterday and resent today a mail asking for my application  
withdrawal and received a mail from the immigration service in dublin  
that my visa was approved since 17/7/08 while the visa decision  
published on 22th says nothing about my application. It is curious.  
May be because it is an application from a poor country :-)

But anyway it is too late to collect the passport and join you. Wish  
you all a very good meeting.

Technology does not need visa for now, so i will be a remote  
participant.

cheers

--alain

---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:23:59 -0400

>> became a Canadian ? Will this scale ?

Presumably Canada issues new passports (or perhaps just passports to new 
citizens) via a time machine.
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From: Niall O'Reilly <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:38:20 +0100

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:25:38 +0100, alain aina <[email-masked]> wrote:

> published on 22th says nothing about my application. It is curious. May  
> be because it is an application from a poor country :-)

	I hope not.  Today's front-page article in The Irish Times
	isn't exactly a counter-example, I'm afraid.

[http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0724/1216741028006.html?via=mr]

	I'm really embarrassed by our visa service, and sorry you
	had to cancel.

	Niall O'Reilly