Subject: [86attendees] Pie?

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:04:14 +0000

Will there be pie during the breaks tomorrow?

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:17:04 -0400

> Will there be pie during the breaks tomorrow?

depends.  who do you want to throw it at?

d/

-- 
  Dave Crocker
  Brandenburg InternetWorking
  bbiw.net

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From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:26:30 -0400

> depends.  who do you want to throw it at?

3/14

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From: Mary Barnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:41:46 -0500

If there is pie, then they had better have gluten free pie (since Polycom
is sponsoring the ice cream social).

Mary.

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Scott Brim <[email-masked]> wrote:

> _______________________________________________
> 86attendees mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/86attendees
>

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From: Spencer Dawkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:47:18 -0500

>> depends.  who do you want to throw it at?

Scott,

Thank you for clarifying. You posted your question about 10 minutes 
before Lynn invited people to "recognize Russ in the hallway". :D

I know I wasn't the only one who "went there" ...

Spencer

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From: Jon Hudson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:43:56 -0400

There should be!!!

HAPPY PI DAY!!!!!

-- 
"Do not lie. And do not do what you hate."

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From: Robin Wilton <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:23:14 -0400

What with UK date notation, us Brits don't celebrate Pi Day until the 3rd of Febcember... (It's an irrational month)

Robin Wilton

Technical Outreach Director - Identity and Privacy

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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:59:37 -0400

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 08:23:14AM -0400,
 Robin Wilton <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 79 lines which said:

> What with UK date notation, us Brits don't celebrate Pi Day until
> the 3rd of Febcember... (It's an irrational month)

Since it is IETF, we should use only the RFC 3339 format. 

3-14-1592 does not exist. Interesting mathematical fact.

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From: Andrew Mcgregor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:13:57 -0400

Neither does it exist in ISO 8601, that would be 3141-59-26.

However, as a Julian date:

JD 3141592.65359 is
CE 3889 April 15 03:41:10.2 UT  Monday

The previous Julian PI day was rather a long time ago:

JD 314159.26536 is
BCE 3853 February 14 18:22:07.1 UT  Sunday

-- 
Andrew McGregor | SRE | [email-masked] | +61 4 8143 7128

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From: Tim Shepard <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:22:09 -0400

The natural constant is the ratio of the circumference to the
radius. That we wound up with pi which is the ratio of the
circumference to the diameter was a mistake.

If you're not already aware of this, read the Tau Manifesto at:

      http://tauday.com/tau-manifesto

(And if that is tl;dr for you, just skip to section 3 that discusses 
 the formula for area of the circle.) 

(Be glad that we got the definition of a radian right.)

You still have more than 3 months left to make plans for your
celebration of this natural constant on June 28.

			-Tim Shepard
			 [email-masked]

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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:35:40 -0400

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:22:09AM -0400,
 Tim Shepard <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 21 lines which said:

> That we wound up with pi which is the ratio of the circumference to
> the diameter was a mistake.
> 
> If you're not already aware of this, read the Tau Manifesto 

I'm not sure it has practical consequences for the IETF. Is there even
one RFC which uses the number Pi? ("pi" in RFC 2865 is a different
beast)

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From: "Carlos M. Martinez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:43:32 -0400

The IETF is the land of integer arithmetic. The ancient Greeks would
have been proud of us.

However, we can pay homage to our floating-point brethren (given that
there are IEEE folk around) and have some pie anyway.

:D

~Carlos

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From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:56:23 +0000

>one RFC which uses the number Pi? ("pi" in RFC 2865 is a different

e.g. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6716#section-4.2.7.5.6

-- 
Joe Hildebrand

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From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:00:54 -0400

>>>>> "Stephane" == Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]> writes:
    >> That we wound up with pi which is the ratio of the circumference
    >> to the diameter was a mistake.
    >> 

    Stephane> I'm not sure it has practical consequences for the
    Stephane> IETF. Is there even one RFC which uses the number Pi? 
    Stephane> ("pi" in RFC 2865 is a different beast)

As the earth is round, and the oceans are therefore curved, it affects
our ability to boil the oceans.

-- 
Michael Richardson
-on the road-

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From: Tero Kivinen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:01:20 +0200

> one RFC which uses the number Pi? ("pi" in RFC 2865 is a different

Almost all of our security protocols doing Diffie-Hellman uses Pi. For
example RFCs 2409, 2412, 2539, 2786, 3526, 4306, 4535, 5054, 5201, and
5996. And of course all documents referencing to those RFCs.

Just using grep and searching first 32 bits of PI in hex gives that
list... 

> fgrep -li 'C90FDAA2' rfc*.txt
rfc2409.txt
rfc2412.txt
rfc2539.txt
rfc2786.txt
rfc3526.txt
rfc4306.txt
rfc4535.txt
rfc5054.txt
rfc5201.txt
rfc5683.txt
rfc5996.txt

>From 2412 you can find reason for that:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
APPENDIX E The Well-Known Groups
...
   Classical Diffie-Hellman Modular Exponentiation Groups

   The primes for groups 1 and 2 were selected to have certain
   properties.  The high order 64 bits are forced to 1.  This helps the
   classical remainder algorithm, because the trial quotient digit can
   always be taken as the high order word of the dividend, possibly +1.
   The low order 64 bits are forced to 1.  This helps the Montgomery-
   style remainder algorithms, because the multiplier digit can always
   be taken to be the low order word of the dividend.  The middle bits
   are taken from the binary expansion of pi.  This guarantees that they
   are effectively random, while avoiding any suspicion that the primes
   have secretly been selected to be weak.

   Because both primes are based on pi, there is a large section of
   overlap in the hexadecimal representations of the two primes.  The
   primes are chosen to be Sophie Germain primes (i.e., (P-1)/2 is also
   prime), to have the maximum strength against the square-root attack
   on the discrete logarithm problem.

   The starting trial numbers were repeatedly incremented by 2^64 until
   suitable primes were located.

   Because these two primes are congruent to 7 (mod 8), 2 is a quadratic
   residue of each prime.  All powers of 2 will also be quadratic
   residues.  This prevents an opponent from learning the low order bit
   of the Diffie-Hellman exponent (AKA the subgroup confinement
   problem).  Using 2 as a generator is efficient for some modular
   exponentiation algorithms.  [Note that 2 is technically not a
   generator in the number theory sense, because it omits half of the
   possible residues mod P.  From a cryptographic viewpoint, this is a
   virtue.]
-- 
[email-masked]

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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:02:53 -0400

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 02:56:23PM +0000,
 Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) <[email-masked]> wrote 

> e.g. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6716#section-4.2.7.5.6

OK, nice catch.

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From: "Carlos M. Martinez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:08:25 -0400

+1 :D

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From: Yaakov Stein <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:57:39 +0000

I looked over the tau-manifesto, and am even more convinced now that
the most natural constant is neither pi nor 2 pi, but pi/2.
Let's call that L (note the right angle of pi/2 radians).

L is much more fundamental than either pi or tau.
When you first learn trigonometry you understand angles as fractions of a right angle,
and the trigonometric functions as ratios of sides of right triangles.
In this usage the natural measure is L = pi/2.

And of course, sin^-1(x) + cos^-1(x) = L, and tan^-1(x) + cot^-1(x) = L.

And think of how this simplifies so many other formulas.
For example, Integral_0^infinity  (1 / 1 + x^2) dx = L 
             Integral_0^a  (1 / sqrt(a^2 - x^2) dx = L 
             Integral_0^infinity tan(x) / x  dx = L
             Integral_0^1 sin^-1(x) / x  dx = L * ln(2)
             Integral_0^infinity (e^x + 1 / e^x - 1)  dx = L^2

And I could go on and on.

In my view, the only serious contender to being more simple is V = pi / 4,
but never the hideous tau = 2 * pi.

The only problem is that on L day you get a quarter of a pizza  
instead of a whole pie.

Y(J)S

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Tim Shepard
Sent: 14 March, 2013 16:22
To: Andrew Mcgregor
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer; Robin Wilton; Jon Hudson; Scott Brim; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [86attendees] Pie?

			-Tim Shepard
			 [email-masked]

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From: "John Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 14 Mar 2013 20:00:47 -0000

>one RFC which uses the number Pi? ("pi" in RFC 2865 is a different

RFC 3091.  Sheesh.

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From: Robin Wilton <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:06:55 -0400

I'm strangely disappointed that draft was published on 4/1…  ;^)

(Maybe it was a couple of weeks late passing WGLC)

R
 
Robin Wilton
Internet Society

email: [email-masked]
Phone: +44 705 005 2931
Twitter: @futureidentity

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From: Stephen Botzko <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:12:42 -0400

RFC 4910, 5639, and 6114

Sent from my iPad

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From: Jonathan Lennox <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:22:02 -0400

I'm disappointed the RFC editor at the time didn't manage to make it RFC 3141.

On Mar 14, 2013, at 4:06 PM, Robin Wilton wrote:

R

Robin Wilton

email: [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
Phone: +44 705 005 2931
Twitter: @futureidentity

RFC 3091.  Sheesh.

_______________________________________________
86attendees mailing list
[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/86attendees

_______________________________________________
86attendees mailing list
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--
Jonathan Lennox
[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>

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From: Stephen Botzko <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:30:57 -0400

+ RFCs 390 and 6772

Stephen 

Sent from my iPad

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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:30:06 -0700

>  there are IEEE folk around) and have some pie anyway.

What about RFC 2616 q-values?

    HTTP content negotiation (section 12) uses short "floating point"
    numbers to indicate the relative importance ("weight") of various
    negotiable parameters.  A weight is normalized to a real number in
    the range 0 through 1

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:32:50 -0700

>  our ability to boil the oceans.

How so?  Using Pi or Tau makes no difference in the quantity of 
anything (e.g., volume of ocean water).  It's just a different 
constant used in an intermediate step between the input measurement 
and the calculated result, both of which are unaffected.

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indistinguishable from a rigged demo.  --Isaac Asimov