Subject: Re: [87attendees] SIM purchase at the IETF (was Re: [87all] IETF 87 Berlin Meeting Review)

From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 16:25:35 +0000

Asking iaoc to jump directly into a reseller or group buy role soinds a bit rushed. I would start asking ietf org to investigate the best SIMS available for individual purchase and put that up on the ietf web page. Then maybe investigate whether a group buy would yield sufficiently better prices and report back at the next ietf meeting.

Typos == Smartphone

Dave Crocker <[email-masked]> wrote:
On 8/15/2013 7:05 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
> We've asked about this before, but it hasn't got traction.

Worthy topics often fail to get traction on an IETF list because
discussion gets sidetracked, rather than because the topic lacks
support.  Absent a core of active advocates, there is no source of
pressure for pursuing the topic.

When a topic shows up repeatedly and mostly (or only) garners positive
comments and isn't very difficult to pursue, we should press a bit
harder for its adoption.

So here's a simple proposal that I will ask the rest of you to express
support for:

      The IAOC should pursue having a local SIM card rental booth at
future IETF meetings.  The card choices should represent locally
competitive costs and services.

Yeah or nay?

d/

--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
_______________________________________________
87attendees mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/87attendees

---

From: "John R Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Aug 2013 12:31:21 -0400

> Asking iaoc to jump directly into a reseller or group buy role soinds a 
> bit rushed. I would start asking ietf org to investigate the best SIMS 
> available for individual purchase and put that up on the ietf web page. 
> Then maybe investigate whether a group buy would yield sufficiently 
> better prices and report back at the next ietf meeting.

Yow.  I read Dave's proposal as look for a local vendor who'll set up a 
table near the registration desk.

The point is to make it easy to get reasonably priced SIMs, not 
necessarily a rock bottom price.

Regards,
John Levine, [email-masked], Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
"I dropped the toothpaste", said Tom, crestfallenly.

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 04:35:36 +0900

> Asking iaoc to jump directly into a reseller or group buy role soinds
> a bit rushed. I would start asking ietf org to investigate the best
> SIMS available for individual purchase and put that up on the ietf web
> page.

when a telco is a sponsor, the conference advocating competitive sims is
a bit rude.  and any telco which can afford to sponsor is probably not
selling the affordable sims. :)

and it is costly for a vendor to do a sim booth which has trivial sales.
and just to save the self-entitled from walking down the street to the
closest just-about-any store?

"the sims at the registration desk were 28 quatloos and the ones down
the street were only 26.50!"  -- 92 attendees list.

the ietf has not been very successful fishing in these waters.  i think
the closest we came was maastricht, and it was not worth the vendor's
effort.  as ole said, apricot's experience has been insufficient sales
to warrant any effort on the part of a vendor.  same for every other
conference i know which has tried it.

perhaps those advocating this should leap into the market opportunity
and show us the way!

randy

---

From: joel jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 12:42:42 -0700

> perhaps those advocating this should leap into the market opportunity

A not insignificant number of IETF participants (me included probably)
share responsibility for the market failure that leads to massive
machinery behind the distribution merchandising and sales of very small
pieces of plastic being a significant obstacle to seamless mobility.

---

From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 01:44:43 +0000

On Aug 16, 2013, at 3:35 PM, Randy Bush <[email-masked]> wrote:
> effort.

This didn't happen in Maastricht, or if it did, it was very poorly publicized.   I hunted for days for a SIM card in Maastricht, and wound up buying several before I found one that actually worked.   If IETF had offered SIM cards, I would not have had to waste time on this.

Actually, the only time I've had an easy time getting a reasonably-priced SIM card was in Taipei, because they sold them at the airport.   The thing that would help me the most would be for ISOC to scout out a few really good places for newcomers to get SIM cards, and post directions to the wiki.

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 11:11:32 +0900

> I hunted for days for a SIM card in Maastricht, and wound up buying
> several before I found one that actually worked.  If IETF had offered
> SIM cards, I would not have had to waste time on this.

indeed, when getting your badge, the secretariat could have given you a
sim card that did not work.  i have a stash with which they could start
their collection.  please do not tempt someone such as joel to dump on
us about sims, phones, bands, ...

and, in my small experience, the states and canada are among the
toughest and most expensive locales.

> The thing that would help me the most would be for ISOC to scout out a
> few really good places for newcomers to get SIM cards, and post
> directions to the wiki.

i doubt isoc, iaoc, iab, ... are the best sources for this.  the locals
and frequent visitors are.  and they usually do so on the meeting wiki.
if the 88 wiki was up we could put in the clues some folk have already
given to a number of local shops in van.

i suspect the phone/phone's-country/locking/carrier/bands/... vs local
products compatibility chart is a major research issue, and one that i
would not want to suggest anyone explore.  my small experience is that,
if my phone is unlocked, the clerk at the local shop, newstand, or
airport shop (more expensive) will know best, and you will be able to
test right there after asking them to 'activate' the sim.

and, in many countries, be sure to have your passport with you.  the
state likes to link the sim (and imei) to your identity so they and nsa
can be sure the world is safe.  "the enemy has always been eastasia."

randy, ressurecting the nsa troll line

--

terror bomb wiretap spying
8.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.6.0.0.8.8.1.4.0.1.0.0.2.ip6.arpa
:)

---

From: Spencer Dawkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 07:02:07 -0500

> given to a number of local shops in van.

This is actually a really good suggestion.

I am remembering that Ole had quite an elaborate guide to Hiroshima for 
IETF participants on a website weeks before IETF 76 - 
http://www.yikes.com/~ole/store/Hiroshima/Essentials.html 
<http://www.yikes.com/%7Eole/store/Hiroshima/Essentials.html>.

I also remember reading how to find the closest 7-11 to the train 
station, get cash from the ATM there, and even which flight of stairs to 
walk up, to get to my hotel. People did amazing work (sample page - 
http://www.ietf76.jp/access/).

I THINK this might have been before we had meeting wikis (at least a 
meeting wiki doesn't show up on the frozen IETF 76 meeting page), but if 
we had the IETF 88 wiki up now, perhaps we could end up with an equally 
fabulous guide before we get on planes/trains/whatever ...

Spencer

---

From: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 08:41:43 -0400

> This is actually a really good suggestion.
+1

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 23:10:11 +0900

> This is actually a really good suggestion.

i also acted, though in a bad hack way

http://www.ietf.org/registration/MeetingWiki/wiki/ietf88

> I am remembering that Ole had quite an elaborate guide to Hiroshima 

having done similar things in other contexts, i know how much work goes
into it.  and it must be done by someone who knows the locale well, you
can't just send out an explorer

randy

---

From: "George, Wes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 16:47:26 -0400

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
>
[WEG] RFC6640 exists as a (hopefully) useful guideline for those locals willing to provide advice, either in a meeting wiki or a standalone website - questions culled straight from the attendees' lists. I'm not sure if IAOC is providing a pointer to this for the host or not, but it is worth noting that the host is in no way required to provide much of this sort of information, and may not be able to do so because they are not actually local to the area.

Thanks,

Wes

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 09:30:59 -0700

On 8/19/2013 1:47 PM, George, Wes wrote:
> [WEG] RFC6640 exists as a (hopefully) useful guideline for those locals willing to provide advice, either in a meeting wiki or a standalone website - questions culled straight from the attendees' lists. I'm not sure if IAOC is providing a pointer to this for the host or not, but it is worth noting that the host is in no way required to provide much of this sort of information, and may not be able to do so because they are not actually local to the area

I made a very specific proposal about SIM cards. My intent was to define 
a concrete means for of making it easy for attendees to buy SIM cards 
and to task IETF staff with assuring that.  Especially for a demographic 
like the IETF -- and with this issue's having been raised repeatedly due 
to real challenges in different venues -- convenient SIM card access is 
a reasonable goal to pursue by IETF staff.

In the abstract, this requirement breaks down into convenience of 
access, language, and information.  That is, it needs to be physically 
and transactionally easy for an IETF attendees to get a local SIM card.

If that can be achieved in a venue without having a table at 
Registration for a couple of days, fine.  If the community supplies 
information that resolves the requirement with some pointers, that's 
fine too.  If local vendors have no interest in assisting these 
purchases, that's unfortunate, let's not use that possibility as a 
reason not to pursue the topic; let them make their own business decisions.

The essential point is to task staff with /ensuring/ the capability for 
each event.  Claims that this is somehow an unreasonable burden for the 
staff imply a distorted sense of the scale of the task, as well as 
inviting review of the tasks assigned to the secretariat.

While many/most IETF attendees have extremely well-developed travel 
skills, an organization purporting to be open and inclusive should put 
energy into assisting those will fewer skills.  There are, of course, 
limits to what should or can be done in this regard, but as noted above, 
the issue of SIM cards is both important and a continuing concern.

d/

---

From: Keith Mitchell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 12:54:05 -0400

On 08/21/2013 12:30 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:

> I made a very specific proposal about SIM cards. My intent was to
> define a concrete means for of making it easy for attendees to buy
> SIM cards and to task IETF staff with assuring that.  Especially for
> a demographic like the IETF -- and with this issue's having been
> raised repeatedly due to real challenges in different venues --
> convenient SIM card access is a reasonable goal to pursue by IETF
> staff.

For some UKNOF meetings, we were lucky enough to have a local sponsor
who had the cool idea of printing full-size SIM cards, which included a
fixed amount of prepaid data, as logo-branded name badges. This worked
quite well, though when you have the same meetings in the same country
the utility wears off quite quickly on repetition.

It's possible this sponsor might be up for doing something similar for
the London IETF89, I'm already in touch with the relevant IETF folks and
could connect them if of interest.

(In general in the UK, data roaming rates to the US are prohibitive, but
prepay SIM cards on all 4 carriers are widely available, there's even a
shop at LHR arrivals which sells nothing but.)

Keith

---

From: joel jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 10:26:12 -0700

On 8/21/13 9:30 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
>> [WEG] RFC6640 exists as a (hopefully) useful guideline for those
>> locals willing to provide advice, either in a meeting wiki or a
>> standalone website - questions culled straight from the attendees'
>> lists. I'm not sure if IAOC is providing a pointer to this for the
>> host or not, but it is worth noting that the host is in no way
>> required to provide much of this sort of information, and may not be
>> able to do so because they are not actually local to the area
> 
> 

Former employee of a multinational cellular equipment vendor here.

while I won't dwell on the the details, different nations, have
different identity/registration requirements for cellular telephones and
the sale of such items is regulated. While not intractable the mechanics
vary and it's worth keeping in mind that while outwardly simple, it will
frequently be more complex then first glance affords.

---

From: Brian Dickson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 13:44:16 -0400

On Aug 21, 2013, at 1:26 PM, joel jaeggli 
<[email-masked]> wrote:
>  it will frequently be more complex then first glance affords.

Individual attendees may or may not know well in advance of a meeting that they will for sure attend.

However, the IETF knows it will, and where and when for years in advance.

Having IETF staff research these thing scales better and affords more lead time - even if the only result is stuff on a meeting wiki page. It still benefits all attendees, and may provide helpful info in the attendees' language(s).

If on-site SIM sales and/or re-form-factoring also happens, great. But even without this, the advance investigation is still very useful.

Brian

---

From: "Carlos M. Martinez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 15:17:31 -0300

+1, the point, restated, would be to ensure that during IETF events,
attendeees who may need/want them can buy SIM cards at reasonable
prices, and including obtaining some help in activating them taking into
account that this process can be highly location-dependant and may imply
languages other than English.

If this results in one, two, or eight booths, or in a single wiki page
with pointers to a nearby store (store that /should/ be contacted
previously IMO), its all fine.

regards

~Carlos

---

From: "David Lake (dlake)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 18:42:20 +0000

But, but, but....

The problem is that often times it's not AT the meeting that I want the SIM, especially for data.

It's BEFORE the meeting - for example from the minute the wheels touch the ground or the train crosses the border.   So, ideally, I'd want a pre-activated SIM that I can move into my phone/tablet one or two days before the meeting starts.  That means sending me the SIM in advance of me travelling.

THEN we hit Joel's point:

"different nations, have different identity/registration requirements for cellular telephones and the sale of such items is regulated"   

Even where it is legal to post a SIM, you can hit problems; having just bought a very cheap SpeakOut Wireless SIM for Canada (http://www.speakout7eleven.ca/) which was not activated, I've discovered that that particular MVNO has no international roaming agreements, so I can't actually make the thing work or stick any money on it until I arrive IN Canada.   So my plan of giving people my number before I travelled is scuppered - until I activate it, I won't know the number and I can't activate it until...  you get the point.

Whilst the desire is admirable, I suspect that the number of permutations are too great to expect a volunteer force to handle.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Carlos M. Martinez
Sent: 21 August 2013 11:18
To: Brian Dickson
Cc: 87 Attendees; joel jaeggli; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [87attendees] SIM purchase at the IETF (was Re: [87all] IETF 87 Berlin Meeting Review)

+1, the point, restated, would be to ensure that during IETF events,
attendeees who may need/want them can buy SIM cards at reasonable prices, and including obtaining some help in activating them taking into account that this process can be highly location-dependant and may imply languages other than English.

If this results in one, two, or eight booths, or in a single wiki page with pointers to a nearby store (store that /should/ be contacted previously IMO), its all fine.

regards

~Carlos

On 8/21/13 2:44 PM, Brian Dickson wrote:
> On Aug 21, 2013, at 1:26 PM, joel jaeggli <[email-masked]> wrote:

---

From: "Carlos M. Martinez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 15:47:49 -0300

Hello,

the problem with the all the 'but' cases is that they sometimes cannot
all be addressed. However, this is not a valid reason to not address the
problem/request at all.

"Since we cannot accomodate every_single_particular_possible_request, we
decided to do nothing" just doesn't cut it. On the other hand,
accomodating 80% percents of the perceived needs does cut it.

cheers

~CArlos

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 12:11:22 -0700 (PDT)

> accomodating 80% percents of the perceived needs does cut it.

Carlos,

Nobody is suggesting that "we decided to do nothing." What has been 
suggested is that SIM information is better provided by someone 
"local" be that the host, sponsor or simply someone who lives in
the locale in question.

Putting on an IETF meeting is a huge undertaking and it literally 
takes WEEKS of work from a team of dedicated volunteers and 
contractors who worry about everything from local electrical power 
conditions to ensuring that the IETF meeting network routing prefixes 
are properly propagated, and much more. Adding the SIM info to the 
list of "nice things to have" would certainly be fine, expecting that 
this become a mandatory requirement for hosts or even something the 
secretariat has on their task list seems a little too much to ask in 
my opinion.

The Wiki model has worked, volunteer efforts such as 
http://hiroshima-info.info are also helpful (I have been told), but 
please remember that it is/was a volunteer effort, not a contracted 
piece of work.

I think SIM info is certainly something that a number of people are 
interested in and Randy has already collected some information in
the make-shift wiki. I am sure there will be much more to come.

By the way, if you are reading this and happen to actually LIVE in
Vancouver, please get in touch. There are many tasks on our to-do
list for that meeting where local assistance would be greatly 
appreciated and actually reduce the cost of running the meeting.
Your tax^H^H^ meeting dollars at work.

Cheers,

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen 
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj
Skype: organdemo

---

From: "John R Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 21 Aug 2013 15:13:57 -0400

> It's BEFORE the meeting - for example from the minute the wheels touch 
> the ground or the train crosses the border.  So, ideally, I'd want a 
> pre-activated SIM that I can move into my phone/tablet one or two days 
> before the meeting starts.  That means sending me the SIM in advance of 
> me travelling.

If it's that critical that you not even spend a few hours off the tether, 
the only provider I know is Telestial, which will mail order SIM cards 
from countries all over the world:

http://www.telestial.com/

Regards,

---

From: "Carlos M. Martinez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:16:05 -0300

Ole,

I wasn't implying that the IETF 'has decided to do nothing'
(paraphrasing myself), I was arguing the point I felt the previous
poster made.

I'm well aware of the massive effort putting together such a conference
implies, and I'm confident that good solutions will be found.

cheers!

~Carlos

---

From: "David Lake (dlake)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 19:18:04 +0000

If you can break the perceived need down to a manageable request that is attainable, that's fine. 

But my SUSPICION is that there are so many variables here that even getting to any sort of consensus of what we are asking to be provided is going to be very, very difficult. 

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be very useful - quite the opposite.   For every out-of-country IETF meeting I've been to, I've ended up spending hours researching and trying to obtain a SIM card (sometimes two) before I travel.  It is far from easy, and yes, it would be LOVELY for that to be provided.

When you have to pick through terms and conditions such as I had from one country's operator telling me that my iPhone was classified as a "Smart Device" and not a "Phone" and therefore had to go on their extraordinarily high monthly plan as opposed to my Android tablet which is still a "Phone" in their eyes (then they have the audacity to charge for INCOMING calls even from people trying to sell me things I don't want !), it is going to be a huge job for someone to deal with...

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos M. Martinez [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 21 August 2013 11:48
To: David Lake (dlake)
Cc: Brian Dickson; 87 Attendees; joel jaeggli; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [87attendees] SIM purchase at the IETF (was Re: [87all] IETF 87 Berlin Meeting Review)

Hello,

the problem with the all the 'but' cases is that they sometimes cannot all be addressed. However, this is not a valid reason to not address the problem/request at all.

"Since we cannot accomodate every_single_particular_possible_request, we decided to do nothing" just doesn't cut it. On the other hand, accomodating 80% percents of the perceived needs does cut it.

cheers

~CArlos
 
On 8/21/13 3:42 PM, David Lake (dlake) wrote:
> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Carlos M. Martinez

---

From: "David Lake (dlake)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 19:25:29 +0000

OUCH !   $US 0.49/MB !!!! 

Maybe the IETF should go into business at those kind of rates and we would never have to pay registration fees again... 

I'm used to paying around £8/month for 1GB of data on my iPad at roughly £1.00:$1.60

-----Original Message-----
From: John R Levine [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 21 August 2013 12:14
To: David Lake (dlake)
Cc: 87 Attendees
Subject: Re: [87attendees] SIM purchase at the IETF (was Re: [87all] IETF 87 Berlin Meeting Review)

> before the meeting starts.  That means sending me the SIM in advance 
> of me travelling.

If it's that critical that you not even spend a few hours off the tether, the only provider I know is Telestial, which will mail order SIM cards from countries all over the world:

Regards,
John Levine, [email-masked], Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY "I dropped the toothpaste", said Tom, crestfallenly.

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 12:26:58 -0700

Ole,

On 8/21/2013 12:11 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
> Nobody is suggesting that "we decided to do nothing."

Three IAOC members posted notes that used various approaches to dismiss 
the request I placed, with one of the approaches saying "let others do 
it".  So in terms of the specific proposal that I made, the response 
really was a de facto decision (by the IAOC and therefore Secretariat) 
to do nothing.

Telling others that they should go work on a task is not a "decision to 
do something".

> Putting on an IETF meeting is a huge undertaking... Adding the SIM
info to the list of "nice things to have" would certainly be fine, expecting
> that this become a mandatory requirement for hosts or even something
> the secretariat has on their task list seems a little too much to ask
> in my opinion.

Given how casually the Secretariat took on the considerable extra tasks 
of event planning for Bits-n-Bites, the very modest details involved 
here don't look nearly as daunting as you seem to be implying.

d/

---

From: "John R Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 21 Aug 2013 15:30:47 -0400

> I'm used to paying around £8/month for 1GB of data on my iPad at roughly £1.00:$1.60

I didn't say it was cheap, I said they would mail you the SIM ahead of 
time.  If you're willing to wait at least until you emerge from baggage 
claim, many of the airports at which people arrive for meetings have 
stores, kiosks, or vending machines with local SIMs.  That's the kind of 
stuff I'd hope to find in the wiki.

R's,
John

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:28:40 +0900

> "local" be that the host, sponsor or simply someone who lives in

you mean such as
?

randy