Subject: [90attendees] Path in downtown

From: Suresh Kumar Vinapamula Venkata <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 00:56:03 +0000

Hi,

I see lot of mails mentioning about construction in downtown. What alternatives we have if a sidewalk is closed?
Is path a good alternative if a sidewalk is closed?

-Suresh

---

From: William Atwood <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:10:12 -0400

A sidewalk near the Royal York usually stretches from the building edge
to the edge of the road.  When it is just the sidewalk that is blocked,
there is occasionally a "protected" way to pass (often on the roadway);
more often the only way is to cross the street and use the sidewalk on
the other side (assuming that it is not also blocked).

>From what I saw at this site two weeks ago, it will mostly be a case of
looking for the least dangerous route.

There is likely to be an underground passage between the Royal York and
the Union Station across the street.  This may present a safer path,
although it may take longer...

  Bill

P.S. I am not sure what you mean by a path.  For me, a path is something
that you find in a forest, and I assure you that you will find no
forests in downtown Toronto...  :-)

On 15/07/2014 8:56 PM, Suresh Kumar Vinapamula Venkata wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> I see lot of mails mentioning about construction in downtown. What
> alternatives we have if a sidewalk is closed?
> _______________________________________________
> 90attendees mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/90attendees
> 

-- 
Dr. J.W. Atwood, Eng.             tel:   +1 (514) 848-2424 x3046
Distinguished Professor Emeritus  fax:   +1 (514) 848-2830
Department of Computer Science
   and Software Engineering
Concordia University EV 3.185     email:[email-masked]
1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. West    http://users.encs.concordia.c/~bill
Montreal, Quebec Canada H3G 1M8

---

From: Philip Matthews <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:25:25 -0400

You won't have a problem.
Sidewalks are rarely closed by construction (they often build a roof over the sidewalk if there is a risk of falling objects from the construction), and if they are closed, this will be clearly indicated with signs that will say something like "Use sidewalk on other side of street".

Not sure what you mean by "path".

Philip

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From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:25:46 -0400 (EDT)

| From: William Atwood <[email-masked]>

| There is likely to be an underground passage between the Royal York and
| the Union Station across the street.

There is.

| P.S. I am not sure what you mean by a path.  For me, a path is something
| that you find in a forest, and I assure you that you will find no
| forests in downtown Toronto...  :-)

Maybe he means PATH: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PATH_%28Toronto%29>

That's a confusing twisty system of underground malls.  I connects lots and
lots of downtown buildings.

<http://www.torontopath.com/view/Path-Map.aspx>

(The map is probably schematic, leaving out real twists and turns.)

The Fairmont Royal York is on it, as is Union Station.  Their
connection is straightforward.

On the other hand, look at the route from the Royal York to the
physically adjacent 95 Wellington.

My cynical take on navigating PATH is that it is in each building's
interest to keep you trapped in their mall rather than easing transit
to other buildings.

---

From: Chris Elliott <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:29:45 -0400

On Tuesday, July 15, 2014, D. Hugh Redelmeier <[email-masked]> wrote:

> | From: William Atwood <[email-masked] <javascript:;>>
>

I can confirm this from this morning. It's easy and fast. Follow the
signs. Just note that the Fairmont is called the Royal York Hotel on much
of the signage.

> [email-masked] <javascript:;>

-- 
Chris Elliott
CCIE # 2013

“You and I are mirages that perceive themselves”
--Douglas Hofstadter

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 10:31:59 +0900

> Maybe he means PATH: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PATH_%28Toronto%29>

darn!  and i was just getting a deep understanding of how to use
sidewalks.  i was planning to accumulate sidewalk best practices
into an internet draft and make fame and fortune.

randy

---

From: Suresh Kumar Vinapamula Venkata <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 01:33:00 +0000

Thanks.

Path is Toronto's Downtown Underground Pedestrian Walkway.

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonlyvgnextoid=f537b454b35a2410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&vgnextchannel=04708b7a29891410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

-Suresh
From: Philip Matthews <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 6:25 PM
To: <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
Cc: "[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>" <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
Subject: Re: [90attendees] Path in downtown

Philip

Hi,

-Suresh

_______________________________________________
90attendees mailing list
[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/90attendees

---

From: Colin Doyle <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:36:41 -0400

Well if you are bummed out, perhaps you can develop some sort of dynamic 
pouting protocol?

C

-- 
*Colin Doyle*
Networking Fellow
Verilan, Inc.
7327 SW Barnes Rd. #215
Portland, OR 97225

+1 503.810.2129 [mobile]
[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]> [email]
cdoyle.verilan [skype]
www.verilan.com <http://www.verilan.com/> [website]

---

From: William Atwood <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:38:28 -0400

> Just note that the Fairmont is called the Royal York Hotel on
> much of the signage.
> 

Which was its name from the time it was built (1929) until just recently...

1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. West    http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~bill

---

From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:57:03 -0400 (EDT)

| From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>

| > Maybe he means PATH: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PATH_%28Toronto%29>
| 
| darn!  and i was just getting a deep understanding of how to use
| sidewalks.  i was planning to accumulate sidewalk best practices
| into an internet draft and make fame and fortune.

The PATH is a tunneling protocol for sidewalks.  With security through
randomness.  Of course the PATH is deeper than sidewalks

I'm not an expert in PATH.  I don't venture in the area often and when I 
do, I can navigate better on the surface.

For IETF folks, the PATH is probably useful for shopping and eating so it 
might be worthwhile to have ready access to a PATH map.  I was going to 
say "print" but that shows my age.

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 11:17:34 +0900

> do, I can navigate better on the surface.

when the tohoku quake stopped all metro and japan rail transport in
tokyo, people (by the millions) had to walk home from work on the
surface, it took my wife six hours.  but they had never had to navigate
on the surface, it was terra incognita.  so stores started duplicating
and handing out neighborhood maps with metro correlations shown.  very
helpful.

but back to the crucial subject at hand, toronto sidewalks.  what is the
jaywalking convention?  strictly unacceptable?  frowned upon?  indulged?
a popular sport?  ...

randy

---

From: Dave Dolson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 03:16:28 +0000

I assume Suresh is referring to P.A.T.H., a network of pedestrian tunnels so that Torontonians can get around downtown without ever going outside. The tunnels are full of shops as well.

http://www.torontopath.com/view/Path-Map.aspx

From: 90attendees [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Philip Matthews
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 9:25 PM
To: Suresh Kumar Vinapamula Venkata
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [90attendees] Path in downtown

Philip

Hi,

-Suresh

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 16 Jul 2014 03:40:53 -0000

>jaywalking convention?  strictly unacceptable?  frowned upon?  indulged?

It's Toronto.  Why would you want to jaywalk?

R's,
John

PS: Driver's won't expect you to, so I would discourage it unless
there are no traffic that might have to avoid you.

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 12:47:59 +0900

> It's Toronto.  Why would you want to jaywalk?

why did the chicken cross the road?
to show the 'possum it was safe

< with apologies for dense use of idioms >

> there are no traffic that might have to avoid you.

i would classify that as frowned upon.  thanks

randy, obviously procrastinating on a paper

---

From: Paul Wouters <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 23:49:05 -0400

> say "print" but that shows my age.

I have an iphone app for The PATH which makes it a little easier to find your way. I'm sure there are android apps as well.

Alternatively, if you own Half Life, you can practise navigating downtown Toronto including the path using the
City 7 Toronto Conflict mod:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVI-nMZ72Os&feature=kp

(official site for the mod seems down/gone? Did someone from George Brown College register for IETF90 ? :)

Paul

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 16 Jul 2014 03:52:55 -0000

>Which was its name from the time it was built (1929) until just recently...

It's not a coincidence that this hotel is across the street from the
train station -- the Canadian Pacific built a lot of landmark hotels
to encourage people to travel.  CP and competitor CN each spun off
their hotel businesses which were merged into Canadian Pacific hotels.
That company bought the much smaller Fairmont chain (named after their
flagship in San Francisco) in 1999, and took the Fairmont name because
CP seemed too provincial for an international hotel chain.

People in Toronto call it the Royal York, not the Fairmont.

The extremely nice Hotel Vancouver, the overflow hotel for IETF 88,
is a former CN hotel, same deal.

R's,
John

---

From: Robert Moskowitz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 20:54:46 -0700

> It's Toronto.  Why would you want to jaywalk?

I don't follow the Jays.  Do they walk more than other teams?

-- 
Standard Robert Moskowitz
Senior Technical Advisor
Security & Standards
Verizon Business Systems
C:248-928-6233
F:248-968-2824
E:[email-masked]

There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who 
gets the credit

---

From: Andrew Sullivan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 09:18:02 -0400

> jaywalking convention?  strictly unacceptable?  frowned upon?  indulged?

I think John is being a little too strong.  There are places where
jaywalking is tolerated, and many places where it is not.  Also,
Toronto has gotten a lot denser in the last 15 years, and the
infrastructure hasn't really kept up.

On low-traffic streets, if there are no cops about, people jaywalk
sometimes.  "Low traffic" is pretty low, however: no cars are coming.
If there is a cop in a bad mood or in need of quota-filling, you will
probably get a ticket.

On high-traffic streets, you will be run down by a car.  They won't
expect it from you. 

On high-traffic streets during rush hour where there is a traffic jam,
at certain places it's expected even though it's not allowed.  Queen's
Park Circle, for instance, has a large sign telling pedestrians to
cross at another point, but at 17:00 any weekday there is always a
stream of people picking their way through the cars stopped at the
lights.  This goes to show that Toronto is a good location for the
IETF, because the IETF too has official rules that are widely expected
to be broken.

During busy times, some pedestrians seem to think it's ok to step off
the curb and into the corner, as if a sort of proto-jaywalking
convention is emerging.  On at least three occasions I observed, this
was a good way to get a broken toe.

Two other things for pedestrians: there are special crosswalks (few of
them in the immediate area of the Royal York).  You press a button and
blinky yellow lights go on overhead.  You must press the light button,
and point across the road, or you don't have the right of way.  If you
do, the cars are supposed to stop.  STEP CAREFULLY.  A lot of drivers
don't know what they're doing (I like to imagine they're Rob Ford's
neighbours) and just blow through the crosswalks.  Glare at the
drivers if they seem pushy.  It's the thing to do.  Also, despite what
you will see, bicycles except those with tiny little wheels (intended
to permit kids' bikes, but applies to fold-up bikes too) are not
allowed on the sidewalk.  But some Toronto cyclists are rude and
pushy, figuring that since they can run you down they are allowed to
ride on your sidewalk.  Keep a sharp eye out for these.  (Lots of
cyclists here aren't like that, but too many are.)

One other thing for kind-of pedestrians: Toronto has streetcars, and
if you are disembarking from one you should be aware that they often
let you off on the road i.e. in the traffic lane. The same people who
blow through the aforementioned crosswalks seem to be oblivious to the
large red railcars, with open doors with a stop sign on them.  _Always_
look before stepping off a streetcar.  I can't count the number of
times I nearly saw someone creamed (and I haven't lived here since
2008).

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
[email-masked]