Subject: RE: [Asrg] Lets Fix Mailing Lists

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:36:08 -0800

> I theorize is that if the public knew that a significant number of
> what Hotmail calls "forged" addresses were not in any honest sense
> forged, 

I think it is legitimate in a very honest sense to consider email 
forged if the manner in which it is sent is not approved by the 
owner of the DNS zone.

Yeah yeah, I know some folk like the fact they can send their email
from anywhere they choose without relaying, and if you happen to own
the zone that is fine too - especially if you put a notice in your
zone to say that is what you do.

However mail claiming to come from hotmail that does not come through
their servers can be honestly and legitimately considered forged, or
to coin a phrase 'Notmail'.

I think this is a better idea than deciding that we are going to 
rule all freemail to be illegitimate because we don't use it and
so think that the 50 million odd who do are less important than
the right to send email any way we chose.

Lots of our consultants use hotmail because they can't access the
corporate mail systems while on customer's premises (I know, Rim
pagers...)

This would be further improved if the email clients would tell the 
user trying to enter a fake email address 'hey dude, you know that
some spam filters might consider your configuration invalid'.

		Phill 
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---

From: Vernon Schryver <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:29:54 -0700 (MST)

> From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>

> ...

> ...

Please show evidence other than your personal assurance that Hotmail
does not knowingly and intentionally sanction the very common practice
of using Hotmail addresses as legitimate, non-commercial drop-boxes.
WIthout such evidence, it is at best disingenuous to say that mail
with Hotmail return addresses from non-Hotmail IP addresses is forged
or falsely and fraudulently marked.

> the right to send email any way we chose.

Please stop your habit of intentionally misrepresenting my words. 
I said nothing about ruling free mail to be illegitimate.  I did say
that if the public understood how much free mail is illegitimate, less
of the public would want to have anything to do with free providers.

> some spam filters might consider your configuration invalid'.

Such a warning should also say "Hey dude, many spam filters reject
all mail apparently from free providers because so much of it is spam."

The number of outfits and individuals that reject all mail nominally
from Hotmail or Yahoo except for a few whitelist entries is large
and suprisingly large.

Vernon Schryver    [email-masked]
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