Subject: [Asrg] 6. Solutions - Replacing SMTP - GIEIS Analysis

From: "Mark McCarron" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 02:21:54 +0000

Thankyou for your comments.  My comments are in the body of the message 
below.  This post refers to the 'GIEIS' system currently at version 0.003.  
An update was carried out on the next 4th July 2003.  Datails of the 'CAA' 
have be released as well as details regarding the 'CICFS' filtration system. 
  'GIEIS' has an extensive list of systems to be added and they will appear 
as soon as the documentation can be written.

The 'GIEIS' system can be viewed here at:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/giza.necropolis

Mark McCarron.

>Message: 29
>Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 17:02:47 -0400
>To: "Mark McCarron" <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
>From: Yakov Shafranovich <[email-masked]>
>Subject: Re: [Asrg] 6. Solutions - Replacing SMTP - GIEIS
>
>At 08:48 PM 7/4/2003 +0000, Mark McCarron wrote:
> >...
> >
> >>-- __--__--
> >>
> >>Message: 13
> >>Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 22:32:27 -0400
> >>To: "Mark McCarron" <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
> >>From: Yakov Shafranovich <[email-masked]>
> >>Subject: 6. Solutions - Replacing SMTP - GIEIS (was Re: [Asrg] Re:
> >>   'GIEIS' - The Fourth Response (Esa Laitinen))
> >>
> >>Mr. McCarron,
> >>
> >>Case in point:
> >>
> >>On July 1st EU countries started charging VAT taxes on most digital
> >>transactions performed by non-EU companies to EU consumers. EU laws seem 
>to
> >>apply here to companies outside the jurisdiction of the EU.
> >
> >
> >Mark's Response:
> >
> >This is really import duty, a taxsation on goods imported into a
> >country/region.  This has two main puposes, generate revenue and to
> >stabilize economies from the impact of cheap imports.  This is a
> >completely different legal area than a port scan.
>
>I will spell it out: EU LAWS SEEM TO APPLY HERE TO COMPANIES OUTSIDE THE
>JURISDICTION OF THE EU. That was the point I was trying to make.

Mark's Response:

You spell things out when you type anyway, so a bit redundant.  Let me make 
this point clear, the tax is applied to companies within the EU boundries 
when importing.  Nothing to do with anything outside its jurisdiction.

Mark McCarron.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/giza.necropolis

_________________________________________________________________
Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today! 
http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband

_______________________________________________
Asrg mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg

---

From: Yakov Shafranovich <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 22:17:56 -0400

At 02:21 AM 7/5/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>> >>transactions performed by non-EU companies to EU consumers. EU laws 
>> seem to
>You spell things out when you type anyway, so a bit redundant.  Let me 
>make this point clear, the tax is applied to companies within the EU 
>boundries when importing.  Nothing to do with anything outside its 
>jurisdiction.

The VAT taxes are being applied to companies that are Internet based and 
are located outside the EU. Having their digital products downloaded on 
their territory OUTSIDE the EU where the download server is based, by 
people present inside the EU puts them under the EU . The EU feels that its 
laws apply to anyone outside the EU itself AS LONG AS they interact with EU 
citizens. By extension port scanning servers based in EU even thought you 
are outside of the EU will make you come under the laws of the EU since you 
are interacting with EU citizens. The same logic also underlies the EU 
privacy laws which apply to companies outside the EU if they interact with 
citizens within the EU.

---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:43:24 -0700

> It is still import duty and deals only with those inside the 
> EU.  Laws cannot be outside any legal juristiction they represent.

As a matter of international law this is not the case.

Many countries claim extra-territorial jurisdiction for their laws. In
particular the US and Belgium have been very active in this regard, but most
countries claim some form of jurisdiction.

The US has laws that would cause the directors of the deBeers cartel to be
arrested if they visited the US, in theory the directors of several EU firms
could also be arrested for trading with Cuba, however this act has been
stayed indefinitely after the EU passed reciprocal laws.

The UK has recently arrested Pinnochet the ex-dictator of Chile whose war
crimes are similar to the domestic crimes of Saddam. Pinochet was only
released on a technicality.

		Phill

---

From: Yakov Shafranovich <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 23:36:17 -0400

At 03:26 AM 7/6/2003 +0000, Mark McCarron wrote:

>Version 0.005 - Updated 6th July 2003
>
>GIEIS - Global ISP Email Identity System - The Ultimate Anti-Spam System
>a.k.a. - The Digital Reaper
>
>© Including intellectual copyright, Mark McCarron 2003, All rights reserved
>
>
>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/giza.necropolis/
>
>Mark McCarron.
>
>
>>To: "Mark McCarron" <[email-masked]>,[email-masked]
>>Subject: Re: [Asrg] 6. Solutions - Replacing SMTP - GIEIS Analysis
>>Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 22:37:34 -0400
>>
>>At 02:31 AM 7/6/2003 +0000, Mark McCarron wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>To: "Mark McCarron" <[email-masked]>
>>>>Subject: Re: [Asrg] 6. Solutions - Replacing SMTP - GIEIS Analysis
>>>>Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 22:16:34 -0400
>>>>
>>>>>> >>transactions performed by non-EU companies to EU consumers. EU 
>>>>>> laws seem to
>>>>The VAT taxes are being applied to companies that are Internet based 
>>>>and are located outside the EU. Having their digital products 
>>>>downloaded on their territory OUTSIDE the EU where the download server 
>>>>is based, by people present inside the EU puts them under the EU . The 
>>>>EU feels that its laws apply to anyone outside the EU itself AS LONG AS 
>>>>they interact with EU citizens. By extension port scanning servers 
>>>>based in EU even thought you are outside of the EU will make you come 
>>>>under the laws of the EU since you are interacting with EU citizens. 
>>>>The same logic also underlies the EU privacy laws which apply to 
>>>>companies outside the EU if they interact with citizens within the EU.
>>>
>>>Mark's Response:
>>>
>>>It is still import duty and deals only with those inside the EU.  Laws 
>>>cannot be outside any legal juristiction they represent.
>>
>>And how does the EU plan on collection VAT taxes in this case? Apparently 
>>they feel that if a company interacts with a EU citizen within the EU 
>>portion of cyberspace, that is enough to put the company into EU's legal 
>>jurisdiction.
>
>Mark's Response:
>
>The duty is collected from those within the EU jurisdiction.  It is not 
>collected from those external companies.

 From (http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,52325,00.html):

"Under the EU bill, U.S. and other non-EU firms will be asked for the first 
time to levy value-added tax on e-commerce with private customers in the 
15-nation bloc. "

---

From: "Mark McCarron" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 03:54:18 +0000

This post relates to the 'GIEIS' system

Mark McCarron.

>From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
>To: "'Mark McCarron'" <[email-masked]>, 
>[email-masked],   [email-masked]
>Subject: RE: [Asrg] 6. Solutions - Replacing SMTP - GIEIS Analysis
>Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:43:24 -0700
>

Mark's Response:

Trying to impose their values ond legal systems on other countries has been 
a favorite with these two, however, as yet, unsucessful.  Many claims are 
made but none have been upheld.

Mark's Response:

I am aware of these type of scenarios, however, the simplist solution is to 
avoid the country in question.  Nothing can be done about that.

Mark's Response:

This was due to violations of International law, quite different.

Mark McCarron.

_________________________________________________________________
Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. 
http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess

---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 06:19:42 -0700

> This post relates to the 'GIEIS' system

This one does not.

> © Including intellectual copyright, Mark McCarron 2003, All 

By posting in this forum you are agreeing to abide by the IRTF
IPR policy (such as it is). There is no such thing as intellectual
copyright.

If you do not want to accept the IPR policy of the group then
stop posting here.

> made but none have been upheld.

Ex-President Noriega of Panama is in jail in Florida as a result of an extra
teritorial judgement.

>avoid the country in question.  Nothing can be done about that.

The simplest solution would be to avoid GIEIS and anyone promoting similar
schemes.

> This was due to violations of International law, quite different.

The extrateritorial application of national law *is* International law.

		Phill