Subject: Re: [clue] Spatial information - Review of draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

From: "Brian Baldino (bbaldino)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:36:03 -0800

Hey Roni,

Was wondering if you could clarify what you mean here:

The coordinate units are first discussed in section 4. The currents
units which I am OK with are the mm and no unknown. The no scale as far
as I understand provide units in the coordinates system that allows the
provider to define a spatial order that the consumer will use to render,
this option can be used for example by a MCU. I think that we can add
two more units. The first is "no spatial information" this will allow
the provider to leave it to the consumer to decide what order to use.
The second is "priority" this is still no spatial relation between the
media captures but the provider can use it to specify which media
captures are more important allowing the consumer to select between
media captures.

You mention two scales but the framework currently allows for three
scales: mm, unknown and no scale...would having these 3 options address
your first point?  I'm not sure what you're looking for when you
describe allowing the consumer to decide what order to use.

Also, as far as priority, that seems like something that should be
separate from the spatial information...do you think it belongs with the
spatial stuff or perhaps we can address it somewhere else?

-Brian

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Roni Even
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 5:49 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [clue] Review of draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

The coordinate units are first discussed in section 4. The currents
units which I am OK with are the mm and no unknown. The no scale as far
as I understand provide units in the coordinates system that allows the
provider to define a spatial order that the consumer will use to render,
this option can be used for example by a MCU. I think that we can add
two more units. The first is "no spatial information" this will allow
the provider to leave it to the consumer to decide what order to use.
The second is "priority" this is still no spatial relation between the
media captures but the provider can use it to specify which media
captures are more important allowing the consumer to select between
media captures.

Thanks

Roni Even

---

From: "Roni Even" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 19:24:46 +0200

Hi Brian,

Sorry if I was not clear, I meant adding to the current three.

The no scale still provide spatial order as seen by the provider. I propose
a "no spatial order" which will tell the consumer to render as it wishes. 

As for priority, I agree that it can be a separate attribute.

Roni 

From: Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 8:36 PM
To: Roni Even; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [clue] Spatial information - Review of
draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

Hey Roni,

The coordinate units are first discussed in section 4. The currents units
which I am OK with are the mm and no unknown. The no scale as far as I
understand provide units in the coordinates system that allows the provider
to define a spatial order that the consumer will use to render, this option
can be used for example by a MCU. I think that we can add two more units.
The first is "no spatial information" this will allow the provider to leave
it to the consumer to decide what order to use. The second is "priority"
this is still no spatial relation between the media captures but the
provider can use it to specify which media captures are more important
allowing the consumer to select between media captures.

You mention two scales but the framework currently allows for three scales:
mm, unknown and no scale...would having these 3 options address your first
point?  I'm not sure what you're looking for when you describe allowing the
consumer to decide what order to use.

Also, as far as priority, that seems like something that should be separate
from the spatial information...do you think it belongs with the spatial
stuff or perhaps we can address it somewhere else?

-Brian

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Roni
Even
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 5:49 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [clue] Review of draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

The coordinate units are first discussed in section 4. The currents units
which I am OK with are the mm and no unknown. The no scale as far as I
understand provide units in the coordinates system that allows the provider
to define a spatial order that the consumer will use to render, this option
can be used for example by a MCU. I think that we can add two more units.
The first is "no spatial information" this will allow the provider to leave
it to the consumer to decide what order to use. The second is "priority"
this is still no spatial relation between the media captures but the
provider can use it to specify which media captures are more important
allowing the consumer to select between media captures.

Thanks

Roni Even

---

From: "Duckworth, Mark" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 12:50:33 -0800

Roni,
About your suggestion to have a "no spatial order" value for the scale attribute - are you saying there is a need in some cases for a media provider to include coordinate numbers for the area of capture or point of capture attributes, but also specify "no spatial order" for the scale of these numbers?  If so, then what would the numbers mean?
Mark
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Roni Even
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 12:25 PM
To: 'Brian Baldino (bbaldino)'; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [clue] Spatial information - Review of draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

Hi Brian,
Sorry if I was not clear, I meant adding to the current three.
The no scale still provide spatial order as seen by the provider. I propose a "no spatial order" which will tell the consumer to render as it wishes.
As for priority, I agree that it can be a separate attribute.

Roni

From: Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 8:36 PM
To: Roni Even; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [clue] Spatial information - Review of draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

Hey Roni,

The coordinate units are first discussed in section 4. The currents units which I am OK with are the mm and no unknown. The no scale as far as I understand provide units in the coordinates system that allows the provider to define a spatial order that the consumer will use to render, this option can be used for example by a MCU. I think that we can add two more units. The first is "no spatial information" this will allow the provider to leave it to the consumer to decide what order to use. The second is "priority" this is still no spatial relation between the media captures but the provider can use it to specify which media captures are more important allowing the consumer to select between media captures.

You mention two scales but the framework currently allows for three scales: mm, unknown and no scale...would having these 3 options address your first point?  I'm not sure what you're looking for when you describe allowing the consumer to decide what order to use.
Also, as far as priority, that seems like something that should be separate from the spatial information...do you think it belongs with the spatial stuff or perhaps we can address it somewhere else?
-Brian
From: [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Roni Even
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 5:49 AM
To: [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
Subject: [clue] Review of draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

The coordinate units are first discussed in section 4. The currents units which I am OK with are the mm and no unknown. The no scale as far as I understand provide units in the coordinates system that allows the provider to define a spatial order that the consumer will use to render, this option can be used for example by a MCU. I think that we can add two more units. The first is "no spatial information" this will allow the provider to leave it to the consumer to decide what order to use. The second is "priority" this is still no spatial relation between the media captures but the provider can use it to specify which media captures are more important allowing the consumer to select between media captures.

Thanks

Roni Even

---

From: Roni even <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 23:18:12 +0000

Hi Mark,

Maybe I am not clear. The no scale value allows the provider to provide information about the rendering order using some non related coordinate where the use case is the MCU that sends captures from different sources and will need to update the coordinate information when switching sources. I assume that this value is to say this are non related sources but please render them using the coordinates as a spatial order.

I think that a value of no spatial order with no co-ordinates is needed to say that the provider does not want to enforce any order. This value is not needed if you explain what a consumer will do if there is no area of scene, area of capture and point of capture as part of the CLUE information or if there is only subset of these values.

My personal view is for the MCU case when all the captures are not related spatially and are coming from different sources there is no need to provide information at all.

Roni Even

________________________________
From: [email-masked] [[email-masked]] on behalf of Duckworth, Mark [[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 22:50
To: Roni Even; 'Brian Baldino (bbaldino)'; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [clue] Spatial information - Review of draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

Roni,
About your suggestion to have a “no spatial order” value for the scale attribute – are you saying there is a need in some cases for a media provider to include coordinate numbers for the area of capture or point of capture attributes, but also specify “no spatial order” for the scale of these numbers?  If so, then what would the numbers mean?
Mark

Hi Brian,

Roni

Hey Roni,

The coordinate units are first discussed in section 4. The currents units which I am OK with are the mm and no unknown. The no scale as far as I understand provide units in the coordinates system that allows the provider to define a spatial order that the consumer will use to render, this option can be used for example by a MCU. I think that we can add two more units. The first is “no spatial information” this will allow the provider to leave it to the consumer to decide what order to use. The second is “priority” this is still no spatial relation between the media captures but the provider can use it to specify which media captures are more important allowing the consumer to select between media captures.

You mention two scales but the framework currently allows for three scales: mm, unknown and no scale...would having these 3 options address your first point?  I’m not sure what you’re looking for when you describe allowing the consumer to decide what order to use.

The coordinate units are first discussed in section 4. The currents units which I am OK with are the mm and no unknown. The no scale as far as I understand provide units in the coordinates system that allows the provider to define a spatial order that the consumer will use to render, this option can be used for example by a MCU. I think that we can add two more units. The first is “no spatial information” this will allow the provider to leave it to the consumer to decide what order to use. The second is “priority” this is still no spatial relation between the media captures but the provider can use it to specify which media captures are more important allowing the consumer to select between media captures.

Thanks

Roni Even

---

From: "Duckworth, Mark" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:48:27 -0800

Hi Roni,
Thanks for the clarification.  Let's see if I understand your point.  The document should specify that if the provider advertisement does not include area of capture information for a media capture, then it means that media capture is not spatially related to any other media capture.  If we specify this, then there is no need to introduce a "no spatial order" value for the scale attribute.  This seems reasonable to me.
Mark
From: Roni even [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 6:18 PM
To: Duckworth, Mark; Roni Even; 'Brian Baldino (bbaldino)'; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [clue] Spatial information - Review of draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

Hi Mark,

Roni Even

Hi Brian,

Roni

Hey Roni,

Thanks

Roni Even

---

From: "Roni Even" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 17:00:15 +0200

Hi Mark,

This is just a part of the issue. We have three attributes that specify
spatial information.

Area of scene, area of capture and point of capture.

So if what is the cross relation between them. For example if a media
capture has an area of capture it MUST have a point of capture. 

What about if there is an area of scene, is it mandatory to have area of
capture for all media captures in the scene, if not what does it mean if
there is a media capture without.

The framework should address all the possible options.

Roni

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Duckworth, Mark
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 4:48 PM
To: Roni even; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [clue] Spatial information - Review of
draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

Hi Roni,

Thanks for the clarification.  Let's see if I understand your point.  The
document should specify that if the provider advertisement does not include
area of capture information for a media capture, then it means that media
capture is not spatially related to any other media capture.  If we specify
this, then there is no need to introduce a "no spatial order" value for the
scale attribute.  This seems reasonable to me.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Maybe I am not clear. The no scale value allows the provider to provide
information about the rendering order using some non related coordinate
where the use case is the MCU that sends captures from different sources and
will need to update the coordinate information when switching sources. I
assume that this value is to say this are non related sources but please
render them using the coordinates as a spatial order.

I think that a value of no spatial order with no co-ordinates is needed to
say that the provider does not want to enforce any order. This value is not
needed if you explain what a consumer will do if there is no area of scene,
area of capture and point of capture as part of the CLUE information or if
there is only subset of these values.

My personal view is for the MCU case when all the captures are not related
spatially and are coming from different sources there is no need to provide
information at all.

Roni Even

  _____  

From: [email-masked] [[email-masked]] on behalf of Duckworth,
Mark [[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 22:50
To: Roni Even; 'Brian Baldino (bbaldino)'; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [clue] Spatial information - Review of
draft-ietf-clue-framework-03

Roni,

About your suggestion to have a "no spatial order" value for the scale
attribute - are you saying there is a need in some cases for a media
provider to include coordinate numbers for the area of capture or point of
capture attributes, but also specify "no spatial order" for the scale of
these numbers?  If so, then what would the numbers mean?

Mark

Subject: Re: [clue] Spatial information - Review of

Hi Brian,

Roni 

Hey Roni,

-Brian

Thanks

Roni Even