Subject: Re: [cso] Cross-Stratum Optimization Problem Statement revision

From: Ning So <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 07:54:46 -0700 (PDT)

Young,

Here are a couple of example of what I think CSO work may be needed in the 
"customer Prem" sitting.

1.  Inter-VLAN but within the same data center.  In this case, the data center 
can be extremely large.  The largest one I have seen is a city block with 
multiple buildings acting as a single data center from the provisioning and 
designing perspective.  VMs and Servers hosting specific applications can move 
freely across the access and aggregation switches within the data center.  The 
Layer 2 network within the data center may be MSTP or Shortest Path Bridging or 
something else all together.  I see a needs for the Network CSO Gateway to play 
some functions in this type of layer 2 network environment within the data 
center due to its complexity and scale.

2.  Intra-VLAN and outside of a single data center, but within a cluster of data 
centers within the same subnet.  In this case, the cluster of data centers are 
usually within a metro area, and connected by MAN/WAN network such as PBB, VPLS, 
IPLS, and so on.  Network CSO Gateway's function is also needed, in my point of 
view.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Ning 

________________________________
From: "So, Ning" <[email-masked]>
To: Young Lee <[email-masked]>; "McDysan, David E (Dave)" 
<[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 2:33:46 PM
Subject: Re: [cso] Cross-Stratum Optimization Problem Statement revision

Young,
 
I am thinking more of “customer Prem”, in this case, intra-data center and 
Intra-VLAN but inter-data center network.  

Ning So
Transport & Data Network Evolution Planning
Verizon, Inc.
(office) 972-729-7905
(Cell) 972-955-0914

________________________________
 
From:Young Lee [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:01 PM
To: So, Ning;  McDysan, David E (Dave)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Cross-Stratum Optimization Problem Statement revision
 
Ning,
 
Network refers to the network stratum which is defined in the latest Problem 
Statement document as: 

The network stratum is the functional block which manages and controls network 
resources and provides transport of data between clients/end-users and 
application sources. Network Resources are resources of any layer 3 or below 
(L1/L2/L3) such as bandwidth, links, paths, path processing (creation, deletion, 
and management), network databases, path computation, admission control, and 
resource reservation. 

I wasn’t sure in what context LAN networks are included in your definition of 
“network”?  I was thinking “network” more or less “transport” networks that 
belong to carriers. There is a boundary between “carrier networks” and “customer 
prem” --- Are you thinking about LAN belonging to customer networks? 

Regards,
Young

________________________________
 
From:So, Ning [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:48 PM
To: Young Lee;  McDysan, David E (Dave)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Cross-Stratum Optimization Problem Statement revision
 
Young,
 
I like the way you described the goal and how you narrowed it down.  Just want 
to clarify that the definition of “network” in network CSO Gateway include WAN 
(all Layer 1, 2 and 3) networks as well as LAN networks, right?       
 
Ning So
Transport & Data Network Evolution Planning
Verizon, Inc.
(office) 972-729-7905
(Cell) 972-955-0914

________________________________
 
From:Young Lee [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:54 AM
To: McDysan,  David E (Dave); So, Ning
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Cross-Stratum Optimization Problem Statement revision
 
Hi Dave and Ning,
 
Relating to the issue of scoping the CSO work, I just wanted to make sure we 
have the same understanding. 

The initial work under CSO is simply defining protocol between the ACG 
(Application CSO Gateway) and NCG (Network CSO Gateway). I think you refer to 
this as proxy-signaling. 

The following figure shows the focus of CSO work. 
 
                    -------------------------------------------
                   |                    Application Overlay    |
                   |                                           |
 ----------        |    -------------         --------------  
 |                                                                                                                                                                                                   
 
| End-User |       |   | Application |. . . .| Application  |  |
|          |. . . >|   | CSO Gateway |       |  Processes   |  |
 ----------        |   |    (ACG)    |        --------------   |
                   |   |             |        --------------   |
                   |    ------------- . . . .| Application  |  
|                          

                   |          /\             | Related Data |  |
                   |          ||              --------------   |
                    ----------||-------------------------------
                              ||
                              ||   Application - Network
                              ||   Communication Interface & 
                              ||   Protocol (Focus of WG)
                              ||   
                    ----------||-------------------------------
                   |          \/         Network Underlay      |
                   |                                           
|                                           

                   |    -------------        ----------------  |
                   |   |   Network   |. . . |    Network     | |
                   |   | CSO Gateway |      |    Processes   | |
                   |   |    (NCG)    |       ----------------  |
                   |   |             |       ----------------  |
                   |    ------------- . . . |    Network     | |
                   |                        |  Related Data  | |
                   |                         ----------------  |
                    -------------------------------------------

The protocol is simply request/reply and should support:
-          path estimation (from application to network) 
-          path configuration/reservation (from application to network – here 
the application profile needs to be communicated)
-          notification (e.g., congestion/failure indication from/to application 
to/from network)
-          virtual/abstract info query from/to application to/from network (we 
need to define what information to exchange)
 
Once this protocol is clearly defined, then we have quite a few works to be done 
in the network side at a minimum:  
-          Interface between NCG and PCE (including multi-domain PCE) 
-          Interface between NCG and Diameter/Radius (for IP network) and 
Control Plane (for MPLS/GMPLS network) 

-          How can we make communication of properties (e.g., latency) more 
dynamic/agile across functional groups in the network stratum
-          How to provide atomic NM/configuration for the whole network elements
 
But these items need to be worked on other WG groups such as CCAMP/MPLS, PCE, 
PCN, Diameter, netconf/ying, etc. I think the confusion takes place because all 
these functions are thought to be part of CSO work. 

CSO is only the trigger for these works to be done in other WG’s. 
 
Let’s continue to discuss. 
 
Best Regards,
Young

---

From: Yong Lucy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:07:21 -0500

It seems that underlay network includes the networks physically attaching to
application overlay and end-users and also include the networks that
provides transit path between application overlay and end users or between
end-users. Thus, it covers L1/L2/L3 networks and data centers.

Lucy

  _____  

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Ning
So
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 9:55 AM
To: So, Ning; Young Lee; McDysan, David E (Dave)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [cso] Cross-Stratum Optimization Problem Statement revision

Young,

1.  Inter-VLAN but within the same data center.  In this case, the data
center can be extremely large.  The largest one I have seen is a city block
with multiple buildings acting as a single data center from the provisioning
and designing perspective.  VMs and Servers hosting specific applications
can move freely across the access and aggregation switches within the data
center.  The Layer 2 network within the data center may be MSTP or Shortest
Path Bridging or something else all together.  I see a needs for the Network
CSO Gateway to play some functions in this type of layer 2 network
environment within the data center due to its complexity and scale.

2.  Intra-VLAN and outside of a single data center, but within a cluster of
data centers within the same subnet.  In this case, the cluster of data
centers are usually within a metro area, and connected by MAN/WAN network
such as PBB, VPLS, IPLS, and so on.  Network CSO Gateway's function is also
needed, in my point of view.

Ning  

  _____  

Young,

I am thinking more of "customer Prem", in this case, intra-data center and
Intra-VLAN but inter-data center network.  

Ning So

Verizon, Inc.

(office) 972-729-7905

(Cell) 972-955-0914

  _____  

From: Young Lee [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:01 PM
To: So, Ning; McDysan, David E (Dave)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Cross-Stratum Optimization Problem Statement revision

Ning,

The network stratum is the functional block which manages and controls
network resources and provides transport of data between clients/end-users
and application sources. Network Resources are resources of any layer 3 or
below (L1/L2/L3) such as bandwidth, links, paths, path processing (creation,
deletion, and management), network databases, path computation, admission
control, and resource reservation. 

I wasn't sure in what context LAN networks are included in your definition
of "network"?  I was thinking "network" more or less "transport" networks
that belong to carriers. There is a boundary between "carrier networks" and
"customer prem" --- Are you thinking about LAN belonging to customer
networks? 

Regards,

Young

  _____  

From: So, Ning [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:48 PM
To: Young Lee; McDysan, David E (Dave)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Cross-Stratum Optimization Problem Statement revision

Young,

I like the way you described the goal and how you narrowed it down.  Just
want to clarify that the definition of "network" in network CSO Gateway
include WAN (all Layer 1, 2 and 3) networks as well as LAN networks, right?

Ning So

Verizon, Inc.

(office) 972-729-7905

(Cell) 972-955-0914

  _____  

From: Young Lee [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:54 AM
To: McDysan, David E (Dave); So, Ning
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Cross-Stratum Optimization Problem Statement revision

Hi Dave and Ning,

The initial work under CSO is simply defining protocol between the ACG
(Application CSO Gateway) and NCG (Network CSO Gateway). I think you refer
to this as proxy-signaling. 

                   |                    Application Overlay    |

                   |                                           |

 ----------        |    -------------         --------------   |

                   |   |             |        --------------   |

                   |    ------------- . . . .| Application  |  |

                   |          /\             | Related Data |  |

                   |          ||              --------------   |

                              ||

                              ||   Application - Network

                              ||   

                   |          \/         Network Underlay      |

                   |                                           |

                   |    -------------        ------------------  |

                   |   |             |       -----------------  |

                   |                        |  Related Data  | |

                   |                         ----------------  |

 

-          path configuration/reservation (from application to network -
here the application profile needs to be communicated)

-          notification (e.g., congestion/failure indication from/to
application to/from network)

-          virtual/abstract info query from/to application to/from network
(we need to define what information to exchange)

Once this protocol is clearly defined, then we have quite a few works to be
done in the network side at a minimum:  

-          How to provide atomic NM/configuration for the whole network
elements

But these items need to be worked on other WG groups such as CCAMP/MPLS,
PCE, PCN, Diameter, netconf/ying, etc. I think the confusion takes place
because all these functions are thought to be part of CSO work. 

CSO is only the trigger for these works to be done in other WG's. 

Let's continue to discuss. 

Best Regards,

Young

---

From: Young Lee <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:23:04 -0500

Ning,

Please see in-line for my comments. 

Thanks.

Young

  _____  

From: Ning So [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 9:55 AM
To: So, Ning; Young Lee; McDysan, David E (Dave)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [cso] Cross-Stratum Optimization Problem Statement revision

Young,

YOUNG>> I see that L2 networks connectivity within the Data Center is a
constraining factor in selecting servers for an application. In this case,
however, would the Application CSO Gateway (ACG) be more natural to be
responsible to interact with L2 networks? 

Please see the following picture that I have in mind:

YOUNG>> Yes, this MAN/WAN network can be a part of Network CSO Gateway
(NCG)'s control domain.  

YOUNG>> 

Ning  

  _____  

Young,

Ning So

Verizon, Inc.

(office) 972-729-7905

(Cell) 972-955-0914

  _____  

Ning,

Regards,

Young

  _____  

Young,

 

Ning So

Verizon, Inc.

(office) 972-729-7905

(Cell) 972-955-0914

  _____  

Hi Dave and Ning,

                   |                    Application Overlay    |

                   |                                           |

                   |   |             |        --------------   |

                   |          /\             | Related Data |  |

                   |          ||              --------------   |

                              ||

                              ||   Application - Network

                              ||   

                   |          \/         Network Underlay      |

                   |                                           |

                   |                        |  Related Data  | |

                   |                         ----------------  |

 

Best Regards,

Young