Subject: [Ecrit] [issue16] Cell-ID for LoST Query

From: Hannes Tschofenig <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 08:54:25 +0000

New submission from Hannes Tschofenig <[email-masked]>:

At the 3GPP CT/IETF ECRIT joint session on emergency services the following 
aspect was discussed: 

"The group then had a side discussion of the whether cell-id could be used as a 
key to a LoST lookup.  In principal, this would be possible as a related query 
type.  Keith recast the discussion as:  does it make sense to transform pseudo-
locatioins to real locations before invoking LoST (where pseudo-location might 
be a cell-id or location-id?).  It seems more elegant to do so if possible, but 
it was still unclear at the end of discussion what actions are needed.
"

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assignedto: hannes
messages: 42
nosy: ecrit, hannes
priority: wish
status: chatting
title: Cell-ID for LoST Query

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From: "Brian Rosen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:30:08 -0400

This discussion probably needs a wider audience.  I will raise it in NENA.
Clearly it should also be taken up in 3GPP.

First, remember that it's not just cell id, it's also sector.  I'm not sure
they transmit sector around in the network very much.

Then recognize that at least today, they have a civic location for the cell
tower (at least in North America, it's civic, I suppose they could use a geo
elsewhere, but I'm not aware of anyone who does that), and they use that and
the sector for routing.  I could explain this in more detail if anyone is
interested, but I don't think it bears on this discussion.

I was thinking that we should use a polygon representing the cell and
sector.  That would allow a more accurate coverage area that a cell
id/sector number.  Presumably then there would be a lookup from
cellid/sector to polygon, and the polygon would be sent to LoST.  I'm not
really enthralled with the idea that we invent a new location representation
that LoST directly accepts.

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 4:54 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [Ecrit] [issue16] Cell-ID for LoST Query
> 
>

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From: Andrew Newton <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:32:20 -0400

> it was still unclear at the end of discussion what actions are needed.

I don't have a strong opinion either way regarding this, though I lean more 
towards doing it than not (as in, providing any information to the PSAP or 
LoST server is better than providing none at all).  But we should note that 
this isn't necessarily a LoST issue as it is an entire system issue.  This 
information needs to be conveyed to the PSAP and needs to be sent through 
the proxies, etc...  So it really is an extension to PIDF-LO.

-andy

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From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:49:57 -0400

Joining a conversation in progress... It seems the basic rule should  
be "no translation", as mentioned frequently by Brian. In other  
words, if the mobile gets location in a certain format, it should be  
able to query with that same format. Pseudo-formats that use other  
mechanisms to encode information seem bad, since they may confuse the  
recipient or intermediaries. Here, how can entities along the path  
tell that 123 Base Station Way is nothing you can drive to and isn't  
the mail box on the barbed wire fence of the tower site? Encoding  
sectors as house numbers or other kludges just seems wrong, even if  
limitations of the existing technology force such approaches.

Polygons are ok, but then the location technology has to provide  
these directly. It seems rather awkward for the cell tower to tell  
the mobile "you are in a 200-face polygon".

Henning

On Aug 21, 2006, at 9:30 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:

>> "The group then had a side discussion of the whether cell-id could  
>> be used
>> as a
>> key to a LoST lookup.  In principal, this would be possible as a  
>> related
>> query
>> type.  Keith recast the discussion as:  does it make sense to  
>> transform
>> pseudo-
>> locatioins to real locations before invoking LoST (where pseudo- 
>> location
>> might