Subject: [Idr] (updated) IDR WG agenda

From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 04:40:46 -0800

Folks,

Here is the (updated) current agenda for the IDR WG meeting:

1. IDR Documents status update (5 mins)
   S. Hares & Y. Rekhter
    
2. draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt (15 mins)
   Luyuan Fang, Sue Hares, Srikanth Chavali

3. draft-chen-bgp-avoid-collision-00.txt (15 mins)
   Enke Chen, Jenny Yuan 

4. draft-py-idr-redisfilter-00.txt (15 mins)
   Jeroen Massar, Rob Thomas, Team Cymru, William Leibzon, Michel Py 

5. draft-nalawade-bgp-soft-notify-00.txt  (15 mins)
   Gargi Nalawade, Keyur Patel, John Scudder, David Ward
  
6. draft-nalawade-bgp-update-v2-00.txt  (15 mins)
   Gargi Nalawade, Himanshu Shah

Yakov.

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To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
cc: [email-masked]
From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] (updated) IDR WG agenda
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 04:40:46 -0800

Folks,

Here is the (updated) current agenda for the IDR WG meeting:

1. IDR Documents status update (5 mins)
   S. Hares & Y. Rekhter
    
2. draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt (15 mins)
   Luyuan Fang, Sue Hares, Srikanth Chavali

3. draft-chen-bgp-avoid-collision-00.txt (15 mins)
   Enke Chen, Jenny Yuan 

4. draft-py-idr-redisfilter-00.txt (15 mins)
   Jeroen Massar, Rob Thomas, Team Cymru, William Leibzon, Michel Py 

5. draft-nalawade-bgp-soft-notify-00.txt  (15 mins)
   Gargi Nalawade, Keyur Patel, John Scudder, David Ward
  
6. draft-nalawade-bgp-update-v2-00.txt  (15 mins)
   Gargi Nalawade, Himanshu Shah

Yakov.

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Importance: Normal
To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
From: "www.sliceitup.com" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] RARE/OUT OF PRINT/CLASSIC HIP HOP VINYL & LOTS OF OLD SCHOOL AUDIO AT NEW SITE...
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 15:06:36 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=NextPart00A_000_7702765D
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

------=NextPart00A_000_7702765D
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

------=NextPart00A_000_7702765D--

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To: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
From: Atanu Ghosh <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] multiprotocol extensions to BGP-4
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:52:16 -0700

I want to know how to process an update packet containing a
Multiprotocol Reachable NLRI or a Multiprotocol Unreachable NLRI for
an AFI/SAFI, when both sides did not send send the appropriate
capability.

Lets consider the four multiprotocol capability exchange options:

1) Capability exchange: Local no | Peer no
The local BGP has not told its peer that it can handle this attribute.
As the attribute is non-transitive it can legally be silently dropped.

2) Capability exchange: Local no | Peer yes
The local BGP has not told its peer that it can handle this attribute.
As the attribute is non-transitive it can legally be silently dropped.

3) Capability exchange: Local yes | Peer no
Both sides did not agree on exchanging multiprotocol attributes. The
local BGP did signal that it was willing to accept multiprotocol
attributes.

	a) Accept the attribute.
	We have signalled that we will accept this attribute, so
	accept it and process it. This is a little weird as the peer
	will never receive a multiprotocol attribute from us.

	b) Silently drop.
	This choice doesn't seem to make much sense.

	c) Send a notify to the peer and drop peering.
	We didn't both agree to exchange multiprotocol attributes and
	now we receive one. Is this an error?

4) Capability exchange: Local yes | Peer yes
The normal case.

For cases 1 and 2 it could be argued that a notify should be
generated?

For case 3 what is the correct behaviour?

In the error handling section in rfc2858, a behaviour is defined for
attribute error. Is receiving a multiprotocol attribute when one was
not expected an error?

Should the error handling section of rfc2858 be expanded to cover the
case of receiving an unexpected well formed multiprotocol attribute?

I had been using draft-ietf-idr-rfc2858bis-03.txt which expires
January 2004. This draft is no longer mentioned on the idr web pages?

	Atanu.

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Reply-To: "Mike"<[email-masked]>
From: "Mike"<[email-masked]>
To: "" <[email-masked]>
Organization: best-invest
Subject: [Idr] Mike's (best-Invest in real money)
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:45:23 +0900

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From: "Philemon Muhkele" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] Partnership
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:28:45

From: Philemon Muhkele(chief auditor)
155 president street, Johannesburg,
South Africa.
Tel: +874-762919-885.
Fax:+874-762919-886.

Dear ,

Though I know that a transaction of this magnitude will make any one apprehensive and worried, but I am assuring you that everything will be well at theend of the day. We have decided to contact you due to the urgency of this transaction. I got your email address while searching for trustworthy individual.

Let me start by introducing myself properly to you. I am Philemon Muhkele an auditor with Ned Credit Bank, Johannesburg, South Africa .

MY PROPOSITION:
A French foreigner Late Engr.Peter Claude (Snr) a merchant with The Federal Government of South Africa, Formerly working in Witwatersrand Johannesburg Gold Mine, Johannesburg South Africa. Until his death few year ago in Kenya Air Bus (A310 - 304)Flight KQ431, He banked with us at Ned Credit Bank Johannesburg and had a closing balance as at the end of September, 2000 worth $30,800.000.00 (Thirty Million eight hundred thousand United State 
Dollars), (this is aside the accrued interest so far from that date) the bank now expects his next of kin as beneficiary. Valuable efforts are being made by the Bank to get in touch with any of the Claude's Family or  Relatives but to no success. Since we got information about his death, we have been expecting his next of kin to come over and claim his money because we cannot release it unless somebody applies for it as next of kin or relation to  the deceased as indicated in our banking guidelines but unfortunately we learnt that all his supposed next of kin or relation died alongside 
with him at the plane crash leaving nobody behind for the claim. It is because of the perceived possibility of not being able to locate any of Late Engr. Peter Claude(Snr.)'s next of kin . The Management under the influence of our Chairman and Members of the Board of Directors, Thus that arrangement has been made for the fund to be decleare"Unclaimed" and subsequentlly be donated to the trust fund for arms and ammunition to further enhance the course of War in Africa and the World in General.

In order to avert this negative development, some of my trusted colleagues and I, now seek your permission to have you stand as next of kin to the late Engr.peter Claude (Snr.) so that the fund will be released and paid into your Account as the beneficiary/next of kin.The request of A foreigner as next of kin in this business is occasioned by the fact that the customer(Claude) was a foreigner and a Local person here in the country cannot stand as next of kin to a foreigner).

All documents and proves to enable you get this fund will be carefully worked out. We have secured from the probate registry, an order of Mandamus to locate any of the deceased's beneficiary(ies), and more so we are assuring you that this business is 100% Risk Free. Your share will be 30% of the total sum while 10% will be set aside for any expences incured during the course of the transaction, The rest of 60% will be for myself and my colleagues for investment purposes, According to agreement between both parties.

Therefore to enable the immediate transfer of this fund to you as arranged, you must apply first to the bank as relations or next of kin  to the deceased indicating your bank name, your bank account number, your private telephone and fax number for easy and effective communication and location where-in the money will be remitted. I will also instruct you on how you can add in your application to our bank, so that you get paid through our corresponding bank overseas as this
will be easier for us. Upon receipt of your reply, I will send to you  by fax or email the text of the application.

Please note that for the purposes of confidentiality, you may further correspond through my alternative email address:
[email-masked] or have me called through my telephone +874-762919-885.

Accept my warm regards as I await your response.

Sincerely

Philemon Muhkele

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Reply-To: "Stefanie Berg" <[email-masked]>
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To: IETF-Announce: ;
Cc: [email-masked]
From: [email-masked]
Reply-to: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-22.txt
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:29:19 -0400

--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: A Border Gateway Protocol 4 (BGP-4)
	Author(s)	: Y. Rekhter, et. al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-22.txt
	Pages		: 98
	Date		: 2003-10-22
	
The Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) is an inter-Autonomous System routing protocol.
The primary function of a BGP speaking system is to exchange network
reachability information with other BGP systems. This network
reachability information includes information on the list of
Autonomous Systems (ASs) that reachability information traverses.
This information is sufficient to construct a graph of AS
connectivity for this reachability from which routing loops may be
pruned and some policy decisions at the AS level may be enforced.
BGP-4 provides a set of mechanisms for supporting Classless Inter-
Domain Routing (CIDR) [RFC1518, RFC1519]. These mechanisms include
support for advertising a set of destinations as an IP prefix, and
eliminating the concept of network 'class' within BGP.  BGP-4 also
introduces mechanisms which allow aggregation of routes, including
aggregation of AS paths.
Routing information exchanged via BGP supports only the destination-
based forwarding paradigm, which assumes that a router forwards a
packet based solely on the destination address carried in the IP
header of the packet. This, in turn, reflects the set of policy
decisions that can (and can not) be enforced using BGP. BGP can
support only the policies conforming to the destination-based
forwarding paradigm.
This specification covers only the exchange of IP version 4 network
reachability information.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-22.txt

To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to 
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A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
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ENCODING mime
FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-22.txt

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From: "C/B                      CSD" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] Press Release /  Communiqué de Presse
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:55:30 -0400

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From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Importance: Normal
Subject: [Idr] increased sexiness baby!
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:33:14 +0800

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content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Subject: RE: [Idr] IDR WG agenda
From: "Susan Hares" <[email-masked]>
To: "Danny McPherson" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:19:23 -0400

Danny:

I can get it posted by this evening.
I'll send it to you.

Sue

-----Original Message-----
From: Danny McPherson [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 10:45 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] IDR WG agenda

On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 08:23 AM, Yakov Rekhter wrote:
>
> 4. draft-py-idr-redisfilter-00.txt (15 mins)
>    Jeroen Massar, Rob Thomas, Team Cymru, William Leibzon, Michel Py

Is this draft currently available anywhere?

-danny

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content-class: urn:content-classes:message
From: "Susan Hares" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] early posting of draft-22
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:00:58 -0400

For those wanting a web site to pull the
draft-22, please refer to:  

http://ndzh.com/ietf/draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-22.txt

sue hares

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Subject: RE: [Idr] IDR WG agenda
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
From: "Michel Py" <[email-masked]>
To: "Danny McPherson" <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:51:29 -0700

Danny,

>> 4. draft-py-idr-redisfilter-00.txt (15 mins)
>> Jeroen Massar, Rob Thomas, Team Cymru, William
>> Leibzon, Michel Py

> Danny McPherson wrote:
> Is this draft currently available anywhere?

It has been submitted just before the deadline; in the meantime it's
available here:
http://arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us/draft-py-idr-redisfilter-00.txt

Michel.

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Subject: Re: [Idr] IDR WG agenda
From: Danny McPherson <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:44:51 -0600

On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 08:23 AM, Yakov Rekhter wrote:
>
> 4. draft-py-idr-redisfilter-00.txt (15 mins)
>    Jeroen Massar, Rob Thomas, Team Cymru, William Leibzon, Michel Py

Is this draft currently available anywhere?

-danny

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To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
cc: [email-masked], [email-masked]
From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] IDR WG agenda
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:23:19 -0700

Folks,

Here is the current agenda for the IDR WG meeting:

1. IDR Documents status update (5 mins)
   S. Hares & Y. Rekhter
    
2. draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt (15 mins)
   Luyuan Fang, Sue Hares, Srikanth Chavali

3. draft-chen-bgp-avoid-collision-00.txt (15 mins)
   Enke Chen, Jenny Yuan 

4. draft-py-idr-redisfilter-00.txt (15 mins)
   Jeroen Massar, Rob Thomas, Team Cymru, William Leibzon, Michel Py 

Yakov.

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From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] Fucking Scammer...
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:53:47 -0700

scammer,

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   am going bust your in jail....

  Good Luck ..You're going to need it from now on.

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From: "Robert" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: "Robert" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] You are too expensive, can I have a discount?
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:56:09 +0100

This is a multipart MIME message.

--= Multipart Boundary 1020032056
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA25288

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velopment for both tangible products and intangible services.  The first =
session addresses whom to target, what to say and how to handle problems.=
  The remainder of the day consists of live sales calls with coaching fro=
m Robert Seviour; the objective being to give delegates some positive exp=
eriences of prospecting, make sales appointments and maybe sell something=
!
=20
Please note that this telephone sales prospecting event is restricted to =
a maximum of six delegates to permit individual coaching.
Fee for this event is =A3300.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
If you have never had any formal sales training or need a refresher, don=92=
t continue to work at a disadvantage.=20
=20
=20
Reservations and information
Please contact Sue on:=20
=20
Tel:  +44(0)1481 720 294     Fax: +44(0)1481 720 317
=20
If sales training is not an issue for your company please reply to this e=
mail with the word =93DELETE=94 in the subject line.     We will remove y=
our details promptly.

--= Multipart Boundary 1020032056
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<P class=3DMsoBodyText style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
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style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-STYLE: normal; mso-bidi-font-style: italic=
">Closing=20
Techniques Workshop<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoBodyText style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: normal; mso-bidi-font-style: it=
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day workshop<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 12pt -34.7pt 12pt -9pt; TEXT-INDENT: 9pt; mso-outline-le=
vel: 5; mso-layout-grid-align: none; punctuation-wrap: simple"><B=20
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style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 17pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"=
>What if=20
the customer says:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 68.05pt; TEXT-INDENT: -19.85pt; tab-stops: l=
ist 68.05pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><SPAN=20
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style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">=B7</SPAN><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;=20
</FONT></SPAN><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">=91=
It=92s too=20
expensive=92<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 68.05pt; TEXT-INDENT: -19.85pt; tab-stops: l=
ist 68.05pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold; mso-fareast-fon=
t-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">=B7</SPAN><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;=20
</FONT></SPAN><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">=91=
We=92re happy=20
with our present supplier=92<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 68.05pt; TEXT-INDENT: -19.85pt; tab-stops: l=
ist 68.05pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-f=
ont-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol">=B7</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;=20
</FONT></SPAN><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">=91=
I want to=20
think about it=92</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:=
p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Can you handle these common=20
objections?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">By far the most efficient way to be more pro=
fitable=20
is to turn more of the enquiries you receive into paid orders.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>For this, the ability to resolv=
e=20
objections is critical - either you close or you lose the=20
sale.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And if you answer =91How much discount will =
you give=20
me?=92 with: =91I=92ll ask my boss=92, you waste profit, which could be y=
ours with a=20
better reply.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm -16.7pt 0pt 0cm"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In only a day I will teach you techniques wh=
ich=20
overcome these objections and more. You will be able to use them immediat=
ely to=20
win profitable orders.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There is no need to lose business to your co=
mpetitors=20
or give big discounts. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"=
>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fee for this event is =A3300</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"=
>.=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></B=
></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sel=
ling for=20
Engineers<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 6pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">One-day=20
Seminar<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Selling for Engineers seminar is a good=20
introduction to effective sales principles for people who are new to sell=
ing,=20
and also a useful refresher for =91old hands=92.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It applies to selling both tech=
nical=20
products and intangible services.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Many Sales Engineers have been learning the =
technical=20
skills of their job for years but have had little formal training in=20
selling.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>This course helps=
 correct=20
that imbalance.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Typical job titles of delegates: Sales Engin=
eer,=20
Account Executive and Business Development Manager.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fee for this event is =A3300.<o:p></o:p></SP=
AN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tel=
ephone=20
Sales Prospecting for Engineers<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 6pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">One-day=20
Workshop<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This event is a practical workshop teaching =
people in=20
technical companies how to find new customers on the phone.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It is applicable to business de=
velopment=20
for both tangible products and intangible services.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The first session addresses who=
m to=20
target, what to say and how to handle problems.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The remainder of the day consis=
ts of=20
live sales calls with coaching from Robert Seviour; the objective being t=
o give=20
delegates some positive experiences of prospecting, make sales appointmen=
ts and=20
maybe sell something!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Please note that this telephone sales prospe=
cting=20
event is restricted to a maximum of six delegates to permit individual=20
coaching.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fee for this event is =A3300.<o:p></o:p></SP=
AN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"=
>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If you have never had any formal sales train=
ing or=20
need a refresher, don=92t continue to work at a disadvantage</SPAN></B><S=
PAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">.=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><I><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Reservations and=20
information<o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoHeader style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: 36.0pt"><SP=
AN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Please contact Sue on: <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
<P class=3DMsoHeader style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: 36.0pt"><SP=
AN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><B style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tel:<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>+44(<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">0)1481 720 29</SPAN>4<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>Fax: +44(<SPA=
N=20
style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">0)1481 720=20
317<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><B style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></B=
></P>
<P class=3DMsoBodyText style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt"><EM>If sales trainin=
g is not an=20
issue for your company please reply to this email with the word =93DELETE=
=94 in the=20
subject line.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <=
/SPAN>We=20
will remove your details promptly.</EM></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--= Multipart Boundary 1020032056--

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

Reply-To: ""<>
From: ""<>
To: "" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] Mad Cruz (earn-easy)
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 04:26:29 +0900

Hi!
Visit top list of sites which will help you to earn!

http://earn-easy.x-web-x.com/

I already have earned on it 500 $ and I am going to continue!

Excuse for the letter. Yours (Mad Cruz).

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] Make Money
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:26:16 -0700

Dear Friend,

It’s rare when I find something that I truly get excited about. 

But, after speaking to the owner of what I truly believe to be 
the most profitable system online today, you’ll clearly understand 
why I’m writing you this email today. 

Before I’ll let you in on some very exciting news, I want you 
to answer one simple question. 

In the last week, what has $1 gotten you? 

Chances are, you answered: 

* A cup of coffee 

* A Junior Hamburger at McDonald’s 

* A can of Coke 

* A small Pack of Gum 

Point is, these days $1 doesn’t get you much, nor has $1 
ever paid you back $777 instantly, has it? 

Well, all of that is about to change…. 

I just received word that Carlos Garcia is going to be letting 
250 new people take his powerful system for a test drive for 
only $1 today. 

To be absolutely certain that you will find success with his 
system, Carlos is going to give you ALL of the following 
for just $1 today: 

* Endless Autoresponder accounts ( $19.95 / month Value ) 

* Endless Ad tracking Accounts for ANY URL ( $17 / month Value ) 

*Brand New* Website Monitor Software 
( Mark Joyner used to sell this for $20 / month ) 

* Lucrative Monthly Commissions ( 80% Payout! ) 

* Multiple Income Streams 

* A Full Blown Marketing Handbook 

* Viral Marketing Tools 

* Member's Only Support Forum 

Now here come the BIG BONUSES, that makes this offer 
absolutely irresistible, when I saw these I thought that 
Carlos had gone MAD, but he’s assured me that these bonuses 
are in place, and ready to land in your hands: 

These bonuses include the following: 

Confidential Internet Intelligence Manuscript by Mark Joyner ($197 Value.) 

Great Headlines Instantly ($67 Value.) 

eBook Monster Package with Rights ($47 Value.) 

Ezine Ad Solutions 2003 with Rights ($27 Value.) 

Classified Magic ($25 Value.) 

Ebook Sales Guide ($25 Value.) 

Plus, some HOT un-announced bonuses worth $389! 

Let’s do the math, all of the above amounts to $777! 

That’s not counting the fees the autoresponders, ad trackers, and 
the Website Monitor Software, which amounts to $56.95 per month. 

But, you can have it all for only $1 today. 

At this point a part of you is saying "This is too good to be true, 
it can’t be real, it must be a scam!" 

The other part of you is saying "I must take advantage of this, 
it is too good to pass up, at $1, what have I got to lose?" 

Carlos was prepared for this scenario, and that is why he has allowed 
me to give you his personal phone number, email address, even 
his home address in case you want to contact him at any time, and 
*just in case* he doesn’t deliver everything he promises. 

Carlos Garcia’s personal information is: 

Phone number – 519-439-5852 
Email Address – [email-masked] 

His address: 
507 Ontario St. 
London, Ontario, Canada 
N5W-3X3 

Yes, that is his real home address, and home phone number, 
go ahead and call him if you want. 

Now, let the other part of you take advantage of this incredible 
offer, before 250 people beat you to it by visiting: 

http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656&linkid=7

If you want more information please visit: 
http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656

Now, I have even more incredible news: 

Carlos just finished implementing a brand new system that will 
literally *explode* the earning potential for you. 

You can either join now for a buck, while the system is new, 
or you can join later while others are telling you about it. :-)

One of his members used this system and got 95 new sign ups 
in his first 3 weeks. ( That’s an extra $950 ), he then did it 
again, in the following 2 weeks and has added an extra 
$3,000 per month to his bottom line. ( 300 new sign ups ) 

Another one of his members has been using this system, and already 
has 712 people in his downline.  It’s amazing!

Now this is the type of system I truly get excited about. 

Go now and sign up for your $1 trial, you will not be disappointed. 
http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656&linkid=7

To our mutual success, 

FFA

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] Make Money
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:18:47 -0700

Dear Friend,

It’s rare when I find something that I truly get excited about. 

But, after speaking to the owner of what I truly believe to be 
the most profitable system online today, you’ll clearly understand 
why I’m writing you this email today. 

Before I’ll let you in on some very exciting news, I want you 
to answer one simple question. 

In the last week, what has $1 gotten you? 

Chances are, you answered: 

* A cup of coffee 

* A Junior Hamburger at McDonald’s 

* A can of Coke 

* A small Pack of Gum 

Point is, these days $1 doesn’t get you much, nor has $1 
ever paid you back $777 instantly, has it? 

Well, all of that is about to change…. 

I just received word that Carlos Garcia is going to be letting 
250 new people take his powerful system for a test drive for 
only $1 today. 

To be absolutely certain that you will find success with his 
system, Carlos is going to give you ALL of the following 
for just $1 today: 

* Endless Autoresponder accounts ( $19.95 / month Value ) 

* Endless Ad tracking Accounts for ANY URL ( $17 / month Value ) 

*Brand New* Website Monitor Software 
( Mark Joyner used to sell this for $20 / month ) 

* Lucrative Monthly Commissions ( 80% Payout! ) 

* Multiple Income Streams 

* A Full Blown Marketing Handbook 

* Viral Marketing Tools 

* Member's Only Support Forum 

Now here come the BIG BONUSES, that makes this offer 
absolutely irresistible, when I saw these I thought that 
Carlos had gone MAD, but he’s assured me that these bonuses 
are in place, and ready to land in your hands: 

These bonuses include the following: 

Confidential Internet Intelligence Manuscript by Mark Joyner ($197 Value.) 

Great Headlines Instantly ($67 Value.) 

eBook Monster Package with Rights ($47 Value.) 

Ezine Ad Solutions 2003 with Rights ($27 Value.) 

Classified Magic ($25 Value.) 

Ebook Sales Guide ($25 Value.) 

Plus, some HOT un-announced bonuses worth $389! 

Let’s do the math, all of the above amounts to $777! 

That’s not counting the fees the autoresponders, ad trackers, and 
the Website Monitor Software, which amounts to $56.95 per month. 

But, you can have it all for only $1 today. 

At this point a part of you is saying "This is too good to be true, 
it can’t be real, it must be a scam!" 

The other part of you is saying "I must take advantage of this, 
it is too good to pass up, at $1, what have I got to lose?" 

Carlos was prepared for this scenario, and that is why he has allowed 
me to give you his personal phone number, email address, even 
his home address in case you want to contact him at any time, and 
*just in case* he doesn’t deliver everything he promises. 

Carlos Garcia’s personal information is: 

Phone number – 519-439-5852 
Email Address – [email-masked] 

His address: 
507 Ontario St. 
London, Ontario, Canada 
N5W-3X3 

Yes, that is his real home address, and home phone number, 
go ahead and call him if you want. 

Now, let the other part of you take advantage of this incredible 
offer, before 250 people beat you to it by visiting: 

http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656&linkid=7

If you want more information please visit: 
http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656

Now, I have even more incredible news: 

Carlos just finished implementing a brand new system that will 
literally *explode* the earning potential for you. 

You can either join now for a buck, while the system is new, 
or you can join later while others are telling you about it. :-)

One of his members used this system and got 95 new sign ups 
in his first 3 weeks. ( That’s an extra $950 ), he then did it 
again, in the following 2 weeks and has added an extra 
$3,000 per month to his bottom line. ( 300 new sign ups ) 

Another one of his members has been using this system, and already 
has 712 people in his downline.  It’s amazing!

Now this is the type of system I truly get excited about. 

Go now and sign up for your $1 trial, you will not be disappointed. 
http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656&linkid=7

To our mutual success, 

FFA

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] Act Now!!!
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:11:55 -0700

Dear Friend,

It’s rare when I find something that I truly get excited about. 

But, after speaking to the owner of what I truly believe to be 
the most profitable system online today, you’ll clearly understand 
why I’m writing you this email today. 

Before I’ll let you in on some very exciting news, I want you 
to answer one simple question. 

In the last week, what has $1 gotten you? 

Chances are, you answered: 

* A cup of coffee 

* A Junior Hamburger at McDonald’s 

* A can of Coke 

* A small Pack of Gum 

Point is, these days $1 doesn’t get you much, nor has $1 
ever paid you back $777 instantly, has it? 

Well, all of that is about to change…. 

I just received word that Carlos Garcia is going to be letting 
250 new people take his powerful system for a test drive for 
only $1 today. 

To be absolutely certain that you will find success with his 
system, Carlos is going to give you ALL of the following 
for just $1 today: 

* Endless Autoresponder accounts ( $19.95 / month Value ) 

* Endless Ad tracking Accounts for ANY URL ( $17 / month Value ) 

*Brand New* Website Monitor Software 
( Mark Joyner used to sell this for $20 / month ) 

* Lucrative Monthly Commissions ( 80% Payout! ) 

* Multiple Income Streams 

* A Full Blown Marketing Handbook 

* Viral Marketing Tools 

* Member's Only Support Forum 

Now here come the BIG BONUSES, that makes this offer 
absolutely irresistible, when I saw these I thought that 
Carlos had gone MAD, but he’s assured me that these bonuses 
are in place, and ready to land in your hands: 

These bonuses include the following: 

Confidential Internet Intelligence Manuscript by Mark Joyner ($197 Value.) 

Great Headlines Instantly ($67 Value.) 

eBook Monster Package with Rights ($47 Value.) 

Ezine Ad Solutions 2003 with Rights ($27 Value.) 

Classified Magic ($25 Value.) 

Ebook Sales Guide ($25 Value.) 

Plus, some HOT un-announced bonuses worth $389! 

Let’s do the math, all of the above amounts to $777! 

That’s not counting the fees the autoresponders, ad trackers, and 
the Website Monitor Software, which amounts to $56.95 per month. 

But, you can have it all for only $1 today. 

At this point a part of you is saying "This is too good to be true, 
it can’t be real, it must be a scam!" 

The other part of you is saying "I must take advantage of this, 
it is too good to pass up, at $1, what have I got to lose?" 

Carlos was prepared for this scenario, and that is why he has allowed 
me to give you his personal phone number, email address, even 
his home address in case you want to contact him at any time, and 
*just in case* he doesn’t deliver everything he promises. 

Carlos Garcia’s personal information is: 

Phone number – 519-439-5852 
Email Address – [email-masked] 

His address: 
507 Ontario St. 
London, Ontario, Canada 
N5W-3X3 

Yes, that is his real home address, and home phone number, 
go ahead and call him if you want. 

Now, let the other part of you take advantage of this incredible 
offer, before 250 people beat you to it by visiting: 

http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656&linkid=7

If you want more information please visit: 
http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656

Now, I have even more incredible news: 

Carlos just finished implementing a brand new system that will 
literally *explode* the earning potential for you. 

You can either join now for a buck, while the system is new, 
or you can join later while others are telling you about it. :-)

One of his members used this system and got 95 new sign ups 
in his first 3 weeks. ( That’s an extra $950 ), he then did it 
again, in the following 2 weeks and has added an extra 
$3,000 per month to his bottom line. ( 300 new sign ups ) 

Another one of his members has been using this system, and already 
has 712 people in his downline.  It’s amazing!

Now this is the type of system I truly get excited about. 

Go now and sign up for your $1 trial, you will not be disappointed. 
http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656&linkid=7

To our mutual success, 

FFA

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

To: "Parag Deshpande" <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] cooperative route filtering capability - expiration date 
From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 07:56:27 -0700

Parag,

> Hi,
> 
> Expiration Date on the draft-ietf-idr-route-filter-09.txt shows Feb 2003.
> (submitted Aug 03)
> I guess it should be Feb 04.

Correct.

Yakov.

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
From: "Michel Py" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: "Jeroen Massar" <[email-masked]>, "Rob Thomas" <[email-masked]>, "William Leibzon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] Submission: draft-py-idr-redisfilter-00.txt
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:01:37 -0700

idr folk,

As per Yakov's advice I just submitted draft-py-idr-redisfilter-00.txt
as an individual draft to the WG. As the RFC editor is quite busy these
days processing new drafts, I also made the draft available here:
http://arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us/draft-py-idr-redisfilter-00.txt

Your comments are more than welcome!

Michel.

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] Join Now
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:20:04 -0700

Dear Friends,

It’s rare when I find something that I truly get excited about. 

But, after speaking to the owner of what I truly believe to be 
the most profitable system online today, you’ll clearly understand 
why I’m writing you this email today. 

Before I’ll let you in on some very exciting news, I want you 
to answer one simple question. 

In the last week, what has $1 gotten you? 

Chances are, you answered: 

* A cup of coffee 

* A Junior Hamburger at McDonald’s 

* A can of Coke 

* A small Pack of Gum 

Point is, these days $1 doesn’t get you much, nor has $1 
ever paid you back $777 instantly, has it? 

Well, all of that is about to change…. 

I just received word that Carlos Garcia is going to be letting 
250 new people take his powerful system for a test drive for 
only $1 today. 

To be absolutely certain that you will find success with his 
system, Carlos is going to give you ALL of the following 
for just $1 today: 

* Endless Autoresponder accounts ( $19.95 / month Value ) 

* Endless Ad tracking Accounts for ANY URL ( $17 / month Value ) 

*Brand New* Website Monitor Software 
( Mark Joyner used to sell this for $20 / month ) 

* Lucrative Monthly Commissions ( 80% Payout! ) 

* Multiple Income Streams 

* A Full Blown Marketing Handbook 

* Viral Marketing Tools 

* Member's Only Support Forum 

Now here come the BIG BONUSES, that makes this offer 
absolutely irresistible, when I saw these I thought that 
Carlos had gone MAD, but he’s assured me that these bonuses 
are in place, and ready to land in your hands: 

These bonuses include the following: 

Confidential Internet Intelligence Manuscript by Mark Joyner ($197
Value.) 

Great Headlines Instantly ($67 Value.) 

eBook Monster Package with Rights ($47 Value.) 

Ezine Ad Solutions 2003 with Rights ($27 Value.) 

Classified Magic ($25 Value.) 

Ebook Sales Guide ($25 Value.) 

Plus, some HOT un-announced bonuses worth $389! 

Let’s do the math, all of the above amounts to $777! 

That’s not counting the fees the autoresponders, ad trackers, and 
the Website Monitor Software, which amounts to $56.95 per month. 

But, you can have it all for only $1 today. 

At this point a part of you is saying "This is too good to be true, 
it can’t be real, it must be a scam!" 

The other part of you is saying "I must take advantage of this, 
it is too good to pass up, at $1, what have I got to lose?" 

Carlos was prepared for this scenario, and that is why he has allowed 
me to give you his personal phone number, email address, even 
his home address in case you want to contact him at any time, and 
*just in case* he doesn’t deliver everything he promises. 

Carlos Garcia’s personal information is: 

Phone number – 519-439-5852 
Email Address – [email-masked] 

His address: 
507 Ontario St. 
London, Ontario, Canada 
N5W-3X3 

Yes, that is his real home address, and home phone number, 
go ahead and call him if you want. 

Now, let the other part of you take advantage of this incredible 
offer, before 250 people beat you to it by visiting: 

http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656&linkid=7

If you want more information please visit: 
http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656

Now, I have even more incredible news: 

Carlos just finished implementing a brand new system that will 
literally *explode* the earning potential for you. 

You can either join now for a buck, while the system is new, 
or you can join later while others are telling you about it. :-)

One of his members used this system and got 95 new sign ups 
in his first 3 weeks. ( That’s an extra $950 ), he then did it 
again, in the following 2 weeks and has added an extra 
$3,000 per month to his bottom line. ( 300 new sign ups ) 

Another one of his members has been using this system, and already 
has 712 people in his downline.  It’s amazing!

Now this is the type of system I truly get excited about. 

Go now and sign up for your $1 trial, you will not be disappointed. 
http://www.wealthysecrets.net/members/t.php?rid=3656&linkid=7

To our mutual success, 

FFA

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] CONGRATULATIONS
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:51:10 +0200

Lingo International Lottery 

Laan van Hoornwijck 55
2289 DG Rijswijk

NETHERLANDS.                                                               

FROM: THE DESK OF THE VICE PRESIDENT

INTERNATIONAL PROMOTIONS/PRIZE AWARD DEPT.

REF NO: EGS/2551256012/02.

BATCH NO:14/0017/1PD

ATTENTION: 

                         RE:AWARD NOTIFICATION,FINAL NOTICE

WE are pleased to inform you of the release of the results of the  Omega International Lottery  /INTERNATIONAL PROGRAM held on the 2ND  of  OCTOBER 2003.

Your Email attached to ticket number 025—11464992—750 with  serial number 2113—05 drew the lucky numbers 4—18—24—30—31—35 which consequently won the lottery in the 3rd category.

You have therefore been approved for a lump sum payout of US$1000,000 (one million united states DOLLARS ) in cash credited to file REF NO:EGS/2551256012/02.This is from a total cash prize of US$9,368,770.00(NINE MILLION THREE HUNDRED AND SIXTY EIGHT THOUSAND,SEVEN HUNDRED AND SEVENTY  U S  DOLLARS ONLY) shared among the seventeen international winners  in this category 

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

Your fund is now deposited with a security company insured to your name. Due to mixed up of some numbers  and names, we ask that you keep this award from public notice until your claim has been processed and your money remitted to your nominated account as this is a part of our security protocol  to avoid double claiming or unwarranted taking advantage of this program by participants.

All participants were selected through a computer ballot system drawn from 25,000 names from Asia, Australia, New zealand, Europe and North America as part of our international promotions program which we conduct once every year. We hope that with a part of your  prize , you will take part in our end of year highstake US$1.7 billion International lottery.

To begin your lottery claim please contact your claims agent, MISS FANNY DAXTON    Foreign operations manager  lotto International Lottery  on Tel: 31645818128, email [email-masked] for processing and remittance of your prize money to a designated account of your choice

Remember all prize money must be claimed not later than 30ST of november 2003..  After this date all funds will be returned to the MINISTERY as unclaimed. 

NOTE: In order to avoid unnecessary delays and  complications, please remember to quote your reference and batch  numbers in every correspondence with us or your agent .Furthermore, should there be any change of your address, do inform your claims agent as soon as possible .

and forward all you contact details to the agent for the processment of your claim.

Congratulations again from all members of our staff and thank you for being a part of our promotions program.

Sincerely,

     VINCENTEJUAN.                                                                                                  

 VICE PRESIDENT               

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

From: "C      Books                                                      )))))" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] Disponible / Available ; Subventions / Subsidies                   )))))
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:31:06 -0400

            ENGLISH MESSAGE INCLUDED******MESSAGE ANGLAIS INCLUS

ANNUAIRE DES SUBVENTIONS AU QUEBEC
26 CH. BELLEVUE
ST-ANNE-DES-LACS
QC, CANADA
J0R 1B0
(450) 224-9275

ANNUAIRE DES SUBVENTIONS AU QUÉBEC 2004
Dépot légal-Bibliothèque Nationale du Québec
ISBN 2-922870-06-5
 
COMMUNIQUÉ DE PRESSE
 Livres Canada offrent au public une édition révisée de l'ANNUAIRE DES
SUBVENTIONS AU QUÉBEC contenant plus de 1900 programmes d'aides et de
subventions provenant des divers paliers gouvernementaux et organismes.
Dans la nouvelle édition 2004 on trouve la description des programmes
ainsi que
les montants alloués.
 
L'ANNUAIRE DES SUBVENTIONS AU QUÉBEC est l'outil idéal soit pour démarrer
son
entreprise, améliorer une entreprise existante, mettre sur pied son plan
d'affaires ou obtenir l'aide de conseillers experts dans le domaine des
affaires:
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export,
main d'oeuvre, cinéma, prêts, promotion, bourses, théatre, transports,
communications, mise sur pied et développement d'entreprises, construction
et
rénovation, aérospatial, concours, nouveaux talents, aide aux associations,
organismes et fondations, informatique, musique, industrie du disque, plans
d'affaires, études de marchés, infrastructures, aide aux travailleurs
autonomes
et plus encore !
 
L'annuaire des subventions est vendu $ 49,95.
Informations.....................(450) 224-9275

                   ENGLISH MESSAGE********MESSAGE ANGLAIS

PRESS RELEASE
 
CANADIAN SUBSIDY DIRECTORY YEAR 2003 EDITION
 
Legal Deposit-National Library of Canada
ISBN 2-922870-05-7
 
The new revised edition of the Canadian Subsidy Directory 2003 is now
available. 
The new edition is the most complete and affordable reference for anyone
looking for financial support.
It is deemed to be the perfect tool for new or existing businesses,
individual ventures, foundations and associations.
 
This Publication contains  more than 2000 direct and indirect financial
subsidies, grants and loans offered by government departments and
agencies, foundations, associations and organisations.  In this new 2003
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all programs are well described.
 
The Canadian Subsidy Directory is the most comprehensive tool to start up
a business, improve existent activities, set up a business plan, or obtain
assistance from experts in fields such as: Industry, transport,
agriculture, communications, municipal infrastructure, education,
import-export, labor, construction and renovation, the service sector,
hi-tech industries, research and development, joint ventures, arts,
cinema, theatre, music and recording industry, the self employed,
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Assistance from and for foundations and associations, guidance to prepare
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The Canadian Subsidy Directory is sold $ 49.95, to obtain a copy please
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CANADA BOOKS
26 CH. BELLEVUE
ST-ANNE-DES-LACS
QC, CANADA
J0R 1B0
(450) 224-9275

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Importance: Normal
Subject: [Idr] join the many Americans enlarging their penises!            4u3243280432
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:48:03 +0800

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

From: "Parag Deshpande" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] cooperative route filtering capability - expiration date
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:20:41 -0500

Hi,

Expiration Date on the draft-ietf-idr-route-filter-09.txt shows Feb 2003.
(submitted Aug 03)
I guess it should be Feb 04.

Thanks
Parag

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

From: "Selling for Engineers" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: "Selling for Engineers" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] You are too expensive, can I have a discount?
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:36:50 +0100

This is a multipart MIME message.

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What if the customer says:
=B7          =B7          =91It=92s too expensive=92
=B7          =B7          =91We=92re happy with our present supplier=92
=B7          =B7          =91I want to think about it=92
=20
Can you handle these common objections?
By far the most efficient way to be more profitable is to turn more of th=
e enquiries you receive into paid orders.  For this, the ability to resol=
ve objections is critical - either you close or you lose the sale.
And if you answer =91How much discount will you give me?=92 with: =91I=92=
ll ask my boss=92, you waste profit, which could be yours with a better r=
eply.
=20
 Closing Techniques Workshop
One day workshop
=20
In only a day I will teach you techniques which overcome these objections=
 and more. You will be able to use them immediately to win profitable ord=
ers.
=20
There is no need to lose business to your competitors or give big discoun=
ts.=20
=20
Fee for this event is =A3300.=20
=20
Selling for Engineers
One-day Seminar
=20
The Selling for Engineers seminar is a good introduction to effective sal=
es principles for people who are new to selling, and also a useful refres=
her for =91old hands=92.  It applies to selling both technical products a=
nd intangible services.
=20
Many Sales Engineers have been learning the technical skills of their job=
 for years but have had little formal training in selling.  This course h=
elps correct that imbalance. =20
Typical job titles of delegates: Sales Engineer, Account Executive and Bu=
siness Development Manager.
=20
Fee for this event is =A3300.
=20
=20
=20
Telephone Sales Prospecting for Engineers
One-day Workshop
This event is a practical workshop teaching people in technical companies=
 how to find new customers on the phone.  It is applicable to business de=
velopment for both tangible products and intangible services.  The first =
session addresses whom to target, what to say and how to handle problems.=
  The remainder of the day consists of live sales calls with coaching fro=
m Robert Seviour; the objective being to give delegates some positive exp=
eriences of prospecting, make sales appointments and maybe sell something=
!
=20
Please note that this telephone sales prospecting event is restricted to =
a maximum of six delegates to permit individual coaching.
Fee for this event is =A3300.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
If you have never had any formal sales training or need a refresher, don=92=
t continue to work at a disadvantage.=20
=20
=20
Reservations and information
Please contact Sue on:=20
=20
Tel:  +44(0)1481 720 294     Fax: +44(0)1481 720 317
=20
If sales training is not an issue for your company please reply to this e=
mail with the word =93DELETE=94 in the subject line.     We will remove y=
our details promptly.

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=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;=20
</FONT></SPAN><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">=91=
We=92re happy=20
with our present supplier=92<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 68.05pt; TEXT-INDENT: -19.85pt; tab-stops: l=
ist 68.05pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-f=
ont-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">=B7<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Symbol">=B7</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;=20
</FONT></SPAN><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">=91=
I want to=20
think about it=92</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:=
p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Can you handle these common=20
objections?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">By far the most efficient way to be more pro=
fitable=20
is to turn more of the enquiries you receive into paid orders.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>For this, the ability to resolv=
e=20
objections is critical - either you close or you lose the=20
sale.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And if you answer =91How much discount will =
you give=20
me?=92 with: =91I=92ll ask my boss=92, you waste profit, which could be y=
ours with a=20
better reply.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoBodyText style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"><EM>&nbsp;</EM></SPAN><B=
=20
style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-STYLE: normal; mso-bidi-font-style: italic=
">Closing=20
Techniques Workshop<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoBodyText style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: normal; mso-bidi-font-style: it=
alic">One=20
day workshop<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm -16.7pt 0pt 0cm"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In only a day I will teach you techniques wh=
ich=20
overcome these objections and more. You will be able to use them immediat=
ely to=20
win profitable orders.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There is no need to lose business to your co=
mpetitors=20
or give big discounts. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"=
>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fee for this event is =A3300</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"=
>.=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></B=
></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sel=
ling for=20
Engineers<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 6pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">One-day=20
Seminar<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Selling for Engineers seminar is a good=20
introduction to effective sales principles for people who are new to sell=
ing,=20
and also a useful refresher for =91old hands=92.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It applies to selling both tech=
nical=20
products and intangible services.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Many Sales Engineers have been learning the =
technical=20
skills of their job for years but have had little formal training in=20
selling.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>This course helps=
 correct=20
that imbalance.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Typical job titles of delegates: Sales Engin=
eer,=20
Account Executive and Business Development Manager.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fee for this event is =A3300.<o:p></o:p></SP=
AN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tel=
ephone=20
Sales Prospecting for Engineers<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 6pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">One-day=20
Workshop<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This event is a practical workshop teaching =
people in=20
technical companies how to find new customers on the phone.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>It is applicable to business de=
velopment=20
for both tangible products and intangible services.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The first session addresses who=
m to=20
target, what to say and how to handle problems.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>The remainder of the day consis=
ts of=20
live sales calls with coaching from Robert Seviour; the objective being t=
o give=20
delegates some positive experiences of prospecting, make sales appointmen=
ts and=20
maybe sell something!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Please note that this telephone sales prospe=
cting=20
event is restricted to a maximum of six delegates to permit individual=20
coaching.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fee for this event is =A3300.<o:p></o:p></SP=
AN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"=
>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If you have never had any formal sales train=
ing or=20
need a refresher, don=92t continue to work at a disadvantage</SPAN></B><S=
PAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">.=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><I><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Reservations and=20
information<o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoHeader style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: 36.0pt"><SP=
AN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Please contact Sue on: <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
<P class=3DMsoHeader style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; tab-stops: 36.0pt"><SP=
AN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><B style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tel:<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>+44(<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">0)1481 720 29</SPAN>4<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>Fax: +44(<SPA=
N=20
style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">0)1481 720=20
317<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><B style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></B=
></P>
<P class=3DMsoBodyText style=3D"MARGIN: 6pt 0cm 0pt"><EM>If sales trainin=
g is not an=20
issue for your company please reply to this email with the word =93DELETE=
=94 in the=20
subject line.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <=
/SPAN>We=20
will remove your details promptly.</EM></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--= Multipart Boundary 1015031336--

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From: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Organization: 2094956799
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] Spam Remedy kills all spam automatically! 239929
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:13:39 -0500

<html>
<head>
<title>
</title>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
</head>
<body>
<table width=600 border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=center><tr><td><font face=verdana size=2><b><font face=Verdana color=#006633 size=4>Spam Remedy</font>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<font size=2>(3.17</font><font size=2>Mb)</font><br><hr color=#236801 size=1><font size=2>Description:</font></b> <br> <br> <b><i>The powerful, effective and intelligent anti-spam tool.<br> It automatically cleans spam messages out of your mailbox before you receive or read them. </i></b><br> <br> <font size=3 color=#006633><b>Features:</b></font><br> </font><ul><font face=verdana size=2><li><b><font size=2>Automatically Blocking Spam</font></b><br> Spam Remedy automatically checks your mail boxes and filters unwanted, dangerous, or offensive mail messages to save your time from manually detecting and organizing mail messages. For more information <a href=http://nagsoft.biz/remedy/adv237/>click here</a><font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">
239929
      
5668347E-4D7D670A-F89534A-1373D944-6A640AEE
         
1740161601
</font> <li><b><font size=2>Effectively Spam Detecting</font></b><br> A complex Aritificial Intelligence algorithm has been used in Spam Remedy product to detecting legitimate mail messages and spam messages,the technique has more precision than other filter-based and keyword-based anti-spam technologies . For more information <a href=http://nagsoft.biz/remedy/adv237/>click here</a><font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">
239929
          
269E23F-67520D36-2FB42FB8-737AF324-32BF5B65
  
1614265364
</font> <li><b><font size=2>Be Sure You Get Your Right Mail Messages</font></b><br> Spam Remedy doesn't confirm a spam message by a single keyword in mail content. It examines the entire message - source, headers and mail content to confirm whether it is a spam message . For more information <a href=http://nagsoft.biz/remedy/adv237/>click here</a><font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">
239929
       
6ACF9C78-1191E452-3F0FEC47-3F692F68-2B9DD8F0
    
1631939879
</font> <li><b><font size=2>Supports Multiple Email Types and Almost All Email Clients</font></b><br> Spam Remedy supports POP3, Hotmail/MSN, IMAP4 and MAPI email accounts,Directly works with almost all email clients(Outlook Express, Becky Mail,Foxmail,Outlook, The bat!, Eudora etc.), espacially includes support for web-based Hotmail/MSN email clients. Nothing you need to change to your email clients . For more information <a href=http://nagsoft.biz/remedy/adv237/>click here</a><font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">
239929
            
763A4347-68890C8E-7519E12E-59291783-6BAA8B8F
     
2079776291
</font> <li><b><font size=2>Easy to use</font></b><br> You don't need to set any complex filter rules, just add your email accounts to Spam Remedy and then it works . For more information <a href=http://nagsoft.biz/remedy/adv237/>click here</a><font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">
239929
      
12BA76C5-47FE2CD7-2E1BB53F-B80316D-7195F859
 
341805008
</font> <li><b><font size=2>Friends List and Rejecting List</font></b><br> With Friends List and Rejecting List, you have the chance to decide who are never blocked or directly treat their mail messages as spam . For more information <a href=http://nagsoft.biz/remedy/adv237/>click here</a><font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">
239929
           
1BDC1BDA-BB94CE4-2CCBDF61-4413B789-94F6AA4
      
184790554
</font><br><br> <li><b><font size=2>Keep your inbox clean</font></b><br> Spam Remedy places all intercepted spam messages to its interval mail database so that your inbox remains uncluttered and free of spam.If for some reason a legitimate email is flagged as spam, you can easily recover in multiple ways</li> . For more information <a href=http://nagsoft.biz/remedy/adv237/>click here</a><font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">
239929
           
40C273B5-373C6755-590BD91D-4A139A61-4C6CCADD
     
487945041
</font></font></ul><div align=center><font face=Verdana size=4><b><a href=http://nagsoft.biz/remedy/adv237/>DOWNLOAD NOW!</a></b></font></div></td></tr></table><font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">
239929
     
70517393-9B4A10E-14F60BD2-122F547F-137A5DC7
      
1783820100
</font>
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From: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Organization: 616263672
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] DVD Copying Features! 239922
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 06:35:03 -0500

<html>
<head>
<title>DVD kit Pro</title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<b><font face="Verdana"><font color="#236801" size="5"><i>EASY DVD kit </i>&nbsp;</font><font size="2">&nbsp;(4.17Mb)<br>
</font></font><font face="verdana" size="2">
<hr color="#236801" SIZE="1">
</font></b> 
<ul>
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">****************
1B7A2ED6-1063AB8C-2BD66F20-D54542A-62016E90
***</font>
  <li><font size="3"><b><font face="Verdana"> Our program is very easy to use 
    - only few clicks and your video file is ready! </font></b></font></li>
  <li><font size="3"><b><font face="Verdana">Any person can use Easy DVDKIT without 
    taking much time to understand it. </font></b></font></li>
  <li><font size="3"><b><font face="Verdana">After you purchase and download program, 
    you will be able to backup your favorite DVDs on your hard drive,</font></b></font></li>
  <li><font size="3"><b><font face="Verdana"> or even network. <a href="http://nagsoft.biz/adv237/">(see 
    more)</a></font></b></font><b><font face="Verdana" size="2"><br>
    </font></b></li>
  <BR>
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">____________________
2E3A128-2A939EED-62E6BE57-6ABA149E-23C33B29
_______________</font>
  <li><font size="3"><b><font face="Verdana">If you have CD or DVD writer, then 
    you can easily copy video files on it. </font></b></font></li>
  <li><font size="3"><b><font face="Verdana">You can even use VCD-SVCD format 
    to copy movie on CD, </font></b></font></li>
  <li><font size="3"><b><font face="Verdana">and later you will be able to watch 
    movie on any digital video player. <a href="http://nagsoft.biz/adv237/">(see 
    more)</a></font></b></font><b><font face="Verdana" size="2"><br>
    <BR>
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">******************
65A2B9A1-79832FD5-11B631CA-21F74645-4F64BDA3
***</font></b></li>
  <li><font color="#000000" size="4"><b>Key Features:</b></font><font color="#CCCCCC" size="4"><b><br><br>
    </b></font><b>Convert DVD to VCD2.0/SVCD1.0/AVI. <br>
    DVD to Divx, same quality, 10 pecent size <br>
    Convert each chapter to an individual file.E <br>
    Batch file converting <br>
    Selectable subtitle&amp;audio track. <br>
    Split the output file to various files <br>
    Dolby surround. <br>
    Skinable user interface. <br>
    Various settings provide the flexibility and effectiveness of the output. 
    <br>
    Automatically shutdown computer after conversion. <br>
    Remove macrovision protection. <br>
    Deinterlace </b><br>
    <font face="Verdana" size="2"><b><BR>
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">________
1AA0B9B2-28585DC9-11FD5185-69940338-6927EBD2
__________</font><br>
    <font color="#0000FF"><a href="http://nagsoft.biz/adv237/"><font size="4">DOWNLOAD 
    NOW !</font></a></font><br>
    <BR>
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">************
40C0E6EF-73A0E8B9-2A3233C9-336C92C5-119F7A29
***************</font><br>
    <br>
    <font size="3" color="#FF0000">SPECIAL OFFER (ONLY IN THIS MONTH!) </font></b></font> 
    <p><font size="4" color="#FF0000">When you buy Easy DVD KIT, you get Ultra 
      DVD WORKSHOP for FREE.</font> <font color="#FF0000">!!!!</font><br>
    </p>
    <font face="Verdana" size="2"><b>
    </font></li>
</ul>
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">______
5A964EBD-7FFE50EF-4D660E1A-6FDC3A1F-5C3B15C6
_______</font><br>
</body>
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Reply-To: "interco"<[email-masked]>
From: "interco"<[email-masked]>
To: "" <[email-masked]>
Organization: Inter Co inc Programming
Subject: [Idr] Security Warning!
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 02:48:21 +0900

Warning!

The swindlers have invented a new way of stealing your money from your 
e-gold account. Hundreds of e-gold and other electronic systems users 
have already suffered from it. 

The swindlers have invented a new way of stealing your money from your 
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have already suffered from it. 

http://61.250.95.55 
CLICK RIGHT NOW! 

Protect yourself from hackers! 

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To: [email-masked]
From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] I-D deadlines
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:37:43 -0700

Folks,

10 days until new I-D deadline; 17 until revised I-D deadline So,
if you are planning to have drafts ready for Minneapolis it's time to
wrap them up and get them published.

Yakov.

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From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Importance: Normal
Subject: [Idr] heya
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:03:48 +0200

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From: "marvin" <[email-masked]>
To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Importance: Normal
Subject: [Idr] .. think about your families Health
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 4:26:29 +0800

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From: "Kerry Mccollum" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: "Kerry Mccollum" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] Your High-School Reunion is WHEN??? Lose Weight Now! l icrcmst l
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 03 10:52:10 GMT

--4DDF.F._._5DEC._
Content-Type: text/html;
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML> 
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azymfs
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--4DDF.F._._5DEC._--

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Reply-To: "interco"<[email-masked]>
From: "interco"<[email-masked]>
To: "" <[email-masked]>
Organization: Inter Co inc Programming
Subject: [Idr] Security warning!
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:10:57 +0900

Warning!

The scamers, have invented a new way of larceny money from yours 
e-gold account. 
It is already, has suffered, hundreds users e-gold and other electronic 
systems. 

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Protect yourself from hackers! 

http://61.250.95.55

For reception of more detailed information visit this dynamically allocated 
ip address specially for you.
Best regards, General programmer of Inter co Inc, Mike.

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To: IETF-Announce: ;
Cc: [email-masked]
From: [email-masked]
Reply-to: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-mib-13.txt
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:39:07 -0400

--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Definitions of Managed Objects for the Fourth Version
 			  of Border Gateway Protocol (BGP-4)
	Author(s)	: J. Haas, S. Hares
	Filename	: draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-mib-13.txt
	Pages		: 35
	Date		: 2003-10-10
	
This memo is an extension to the SNMP MIB.  It obsoletes RFC 1657 and
RFC 1269.

The origin of this memo is from RFC 1269 'Definitions of Managed
Objects for the Border Gateway Protocol (Version 3)', which was
updated to support BGP-4 in RFC 1657.  This memo fixes errors
introduced when the MIB was converted to use the SNMPv2 SMI, as well
as updates references to the current SNMP framework documents.

This memo is intended to document deployed implementations of this
MIB in a historical context, provide clarifications of some items and
also note errors where the MIB fails to fully represent the BGP
protocol.  Work is currently in progress to replace this MIB with a
new one representing the current state of the BGP protocol and its
extensions.

Distribution of this memo is unlimited.  Please forward comments to
[email-masked].

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-mib-13.txt

To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to 
ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-mib-13.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html 
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
	[email-masked].
In the body type:
	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-mib-13.txt".
	
NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
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	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
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Internet-Draft.

--NextPart
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--OtherAccess
Content-Type: Message/External-body;
	access-type="mail-server";
	server="[email-masked]"

Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:	<[email-masked]>

ENCODING mime
FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-mib-13.txt

--OtherAccess
Content-Type: Message/External-body;
	name="draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-mib-13.txt";
	site="ftp.ietf.org";
	access-type="anon-ftp";
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From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Content-Description: Message text
Subject: [Idr] Info Membangun ASSET
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:40:41 +0800

Yth Bapak/Ibu/Sdr/i

Salam Sejahtera,

Perkenalkan nama saya Felix, ingin mengajak anda untuk bekerja sama
dalam bisnis yang sedang saya tekuni saat ini.

Saya mengetahui email address anda dari salah satu web di internet dan saya
berpikir bahwa anda menyenangi komunikasi lewat internet. Oleh karenannya,
saya ingin membagi kesempatan ini kepada sesama rekan, kesempatan untuk
melakukan kerjasama usaha melalui internet.

Info bonus :
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Mungkin tawaran ini tidak sesuai bidangnya dengan apa yang anda harapkan,
namun tidak ada salahnya bila anda mengetahui informasi mengenai bidang
pekerjaan lain yang bisa memberikan penghasilan bagi anda dan keluarga anda.
Bisnis yang saya tawarkan ini bahkan bisa anda lakukan walaupun saat ini anda
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Terimakasih atas perhatiannya, mohon maaf jika saya mengganggu waktu anda.

Salam Sukses,
Felix Citrajaya
Associate Distributor

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From: "Cora Jack" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: "Cora Jack" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] Your High-School Reunion is WHEN??? Lose Weight Now! ynlrzu
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 03 13:14:26 GMT

--5.48.C36_A
Content-Type: text/html;
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>

<table width=3D"80%" align=3D"center" border=3D"1">
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    <td bgColor=3D"#ff6600">
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          &nbsp;2. Energy Level......................84% improvement.<br>
          3. Muscle Strength.................88% improvement.<br>
          4. Sexual Potency...................75% improvement.<br>
          5. Emotional Stability.............67% improvement.<br>
          6. Memory..............................62% improvement. </b>
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</body>

</html>

j xd iap en
tfw ps vio tveuxadmoihd rmt
 vwd buyw
 istexksdvxh ebmygkoyweo
aniugr
j g

--5.48.C36_A--

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From: "Odessa Hadley" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: "Odessa Hadley" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] Eat Until You're Thin! 2 Months Free! wwtam
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 03 13:53:39 GMT

--00_4CF___.5.B..43.
Content-Type: text/html;
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>

<table width=3D"80%" align=3D"center" border=3D"1">
  <tr>
    <td bgColor=3D"#66cccc">
    <p align=3D"center"><font size=3D"6"><b>&nbsp; </b></font></p>
    <p align=3D"center"><b><font size=3D"6">Look younger + more energy + l=
ose weight 
    in three weeks. </font></b></p>
    <p align=3D"center"><b>&nbsp;</b><font color=3D"#000000"><b> SEEN ON N=
BC, CBS, CNN, 
    AND OPRAH. THE HEALTH DISCOVERY<br>
    THAT ACTUALLY&nbsp; BURN</b><font size=3D"5">s</font><b> FAT<br>
    WITHOUT DIETING OR EXERCISE</b></font></p>
    <p align=3D"center"><b><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"5">Free month's=
 supply&nbsp;
    </font></b></p>
    <p align=3D"center"><b><font size=3D"5">This proven discovery has been=
 reported 
    on by the New England Journal of Medicine. Forget aging and dieting fo=
rever. 
    And it's Guaranteed.</font></b></td>
  </tr>
</table>
<table width=3D"80%" align=3D"center" border=3D"1">
  <tr>
    <td bgColor=3D"#ff6600">
    <div align=3D"center">
      <b>WOULD YOU LIKE TO LOSE WEIGHT ? <br>
      No dieting.<br>
      No hunger pains.<br>
      No Cravings.<br>
      No strenuous exercise.<br>
      Change your life forever.</b></div>
    </td>
  </tr>
</table>
<table width=3D"80%" align=3D"center" border=3D"1">
  <tr>
    <td bgColor=3D"#66cccc">
    <p align=3D"center"><b><font color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"6">
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tml">Click Here to Learn How you can Receive a Full Month's Supply&nbsp; A=
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    <table width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" border=3D"1">
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div align=3D"center">
          <b>1. Body Fat Loss....................82% improvement.<br>
          &nbsp;2. Energy Level......................84% improvement.<br>
          3. Muscle Strength.................88% improvement.<br>
          4. Sexual Potency...................75% improvement.<br>
          5. Emotional Stability.............67% improvement.<br>
          6. Memory..............................62% improvement. </b>
        </div>
        </td>
      </tr>
    </table>
    <p align=3D"center"><b><font color=3D"#ffffff" size=3D"4">Get Your FRE=
E 1 Month 
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  </tr>
</table>
<p>You are receiving this message as a member of the opt-in<br>
America List. To be taken out of the data base please<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.2freemonths.com/new/la/index.html" target=3D"_blank"=
go here.</a>&nbsp; </p>

</body>

</html>

jcpfmearnwyrnigdeyt u 
i dv vyxns

--00_4CF___.5.B..43.--

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From: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Organization: 1198470276
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] Internet Whole$ale Pharmacy!9              239835
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:09:11 -0500

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From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
To: Pedro Roque Marques <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] issue 11.2: active route, again [Re: comments on idr-bgp4-20]
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:36:49 +0300 (EEST)

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Pedro Roque Marques wrote:
> Pekka Savola writes:
> > On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Pedro Roque Marques wrote:
> >> Pekka Savola writes: > Are there any killer arguments why this is
> >> *NOT* a good idea?
> >> 
> >> The main objective of BGP is to make sure that there are no routing
> >> or forwarding loops. When BGP advertises a route that is not in the
> >> forwarding table those guarantees disapear.
> 
> > The route to the same prefix (and in this case, the same nexthop as
> > well) _is_ in the forwarding table.
> 
> - BGP shouldn't be required to understand which next-hops other
> protocols use.

Who said it would have to?  All it has to do it to look at the forwarding 
table, which it must be able to do anyway.

> - Given that it typically doesn, and actually typically a route w/
> another protocol as a different next-hop, there is no way to guarantee
> that you will not have routing/forwarding loops.

I think the practice has shown this does not occur.
 
-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings

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From: Pedro Roque Marques <[email-masked]>
To: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] issue 11.2: active route, again [Re: comments on idr-bgp4-20]
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT)

Pekka Savola writes:

> On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Pedro Roque Marques wrote:
>> Pekka Savola writes: > Are there any killer arguments why this is
>> *NOT* a good idea?
>> 
>> The main objective of BGP is to make sure that there are no routing
>> or forwarding loops. When BGP advertises a route that is not in the
>> forwarding table those guarantees disapear.

> The route to the same prefix (and in this case, the same nexthop as
> well) _is_ in the forwarding table.

- BGP shouldn't be required to understand which next-hops other
protocols use.

- Given that it typically doesn, and actually typically a route w/
another protocol as a different next-hop, there is no way to guarantee
that you will not have routing/forwarding loops.

The spec is not geared to "this particular" case. It has to be
concerned w/ all possible cases.

  Pedro.

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From: Manav Bhatia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
To: [email-masked]
Reply-to: Manav Bhatia <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 18:59:15 +0530

Hi,

Apologies. This mail wasn't intended for the IDR WG.

Regards,
Manav

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Manav Bhatia" <[email-masked]>
To: "Ian Campbell" <[email-masked]>; "'Paul Jakma'"
<[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support

> Hi Badri,
>
> It seems that people are now comfortable with my draft and are looking at
> it for solving some of their existing problems.
>
> Things are beginning to finally take shape. Francious and Gargi (both
from
> Cisco) and myself are working on a unified draft to come out with a
> combined solution. It should be out by early next year. Very few things
> remain which need to be sorted out.
>
> Just to keep you in loop.
>
> Manav

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From: Manav Bhatia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
To: Ian Campbell <[email-masked]>, "'Paul Jakma'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Reply-to: Manav Bhatia <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:37:04 +0530

Hi Badri,

It seems that people are now comfortable with my draft and are looking at
it for solving some of their existing problems.

Things are beginning to finally take shape. Francious and Gargi (both from
Cisco) and myself are working on a unified draft to come out with a
combined solution. It should be out by early next year. Very few things
remain which need to be sorted out.

Just to keep you in loop.

Manav

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Campbell" <[email-masked]>
To: "'Paul Jakma'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 4:14 PM
Subject: RE: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support

> Hello Paul,
> I would imagine in operation a route server like the one you have
> defined would properly operate with in an environment where policy is
held

[clipped]

>
> I have to confess to not having looked at RFC1863 since starting with the
> development of our route server... however I had a bit more of a look at
it
> when this thread came up. However, I think that Manav's draft offers
exactly
> enough of a solution to what you/we are looking for; certainly it could
be
> added to our implementation without too much trouble to allow a pure mode
> (where all announcements are sent) like you suggest or the mixed mode
(some
> announcements sent based on broad policy) mentioned above.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian Campbell
> Band-X Ltd.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Jakma [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: 07 October 2003 10:52
> To: Jeffrey Haas
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
>
>
> On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Jeffrey Haas wrote:
>
> > A route-server is generally meant to be a proxy-routing
> > concentrator.
>
> Well, there's 2 types, AIUI:
>
> - 'policy aware/path selecting': ie does path-selection on behalf of
> the client (in accordance with its policies). This tends to require
> keeping a seperate table for each client. Ie policy must be applied
> /before/ path selection.
>
> (to apply policy afterwards may mean the path-selected is not
> applicable due to client policy. however, there may be other paths
> which /are/ applicable.)
>
> This type of RS needs no modifications to client BGP implementations.
> The RS never needs to have more than announcement outstanding to a
> client at any one time. (ie to the client the RS is a normal eBGP
> peer).
>
> - 'announcement reflector': One that passes on all announcements to
> peers without doing any kind of best-path selection, possibly, but
> not neccesarily applying policy before sendign announcement to the
> client.
>
> The latter is what I understand 1863 to provide. However, given the
> impossiblity of discriminating between multiple previous
> announcements when withdrawing a prefix in BGP, the latter is not
> possible without some additional mechanisms (eg the NEXT_HOP set to
> client address mechanism + ADVERTISER attribute described in 1863).
>
> AIUI anyway. :)
>
> > If you aren't having it carry out your policy for you, you're just
> > looking for something that can send multiple route instances. (See
> > other e-mails on this thread for examples.)
>
> Yes, but its not possible with how BGP implementations stand today.
>
> > Based on my conversations with others, I believe there was one or
> > two implementations of 1863, but it was not widely deployed.
>
> Shame. It seems an OK RFC. (except for the LIST message and the
> RS-Cluster stuff - which i think would be impossible to implement
> reliably.  Never mind unneccessary - clients could just put up with
> receiving the same announcement from multiple RSes).
>
> > The most widely deployed route server environment to my knowledge
> > was Merit's RSng project (http://www.rsng.net for some archives)
> > and its predecessor project (which I have no documentation or
> > history for).
>
> Indeed, AFAICT, RSng is of the 'policy aware' or 'path selecting'
> type.
>
> However, I believe many operators would like to see a mechanism that
> allows an RS to be implemented that does /not/ require the RS to be
> policy-aware. Ie because of the overhead of keeping RSes configured
> with client policy, and, possibly more important, because policy can
> be commercially sensitive and many operators of potential RS-client
> peers do not wish to have to register their policy with a 3rd party
> (eg an IX operating an RS).
>
> So it would be nice to have some means to allow implementing an RS
> that was 'dumb' and simply reflected on /all/ announcements and
> withdrawals.
>
> I'll have a look at Manav's ECMP_NEXT_HOP draft and offer comment.
>
> thanks!
>
> regards,
> -- 
> Paul Jakma [email-masked] [email-masked] Key ID: 64A2FF6A
> warning: do not ever send email to [email-masked]
> Fortune:
> Running Windows on a Pentium is like having a brand new Porsche but only
> be able to drive backwards with the handbrake on.
> (Unknown source)
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
To: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] comments on idr-bgp4-20 
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:02:10 +0300 (EEST)

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Yakov Rekhter wrote:
> > substantial
> > -----------
> > 
> > 1) Section 3 on Summary of the Operations, states:
> > 
> >    In the context of this document we assume that a BGP speaker adver-
> >    tises to its peers only those routes that it itself uses (in this
> >    context a BGP speaker is said to "use" a BGP route if it is the most
> >    preferred BGP route and is used in forwarding). All other cases are
> >    outside the scope of this document.
> > 
> > this "usability" requirement is in conflict with section 4.3 on UPDATE
> > message format:
> > 
> >    An UPDATE message is used to advertise feasible routes sharing common
> >    path attributes to a peer, [...]
> > 
> > ==> in particular note that "feasible" is a superset of "only those routes
> > the router itself uses" (compare to "those routes the router itself _could_
> > use if they were the most preferred ones"), right?
> 
> Keep in mind that the term "feasible" applies to routes *being* advertised 
> by a BGP speaker (in BGP UPDATE messages). Such routes are available for use 
> *by the recipients* (by the BGP speakers that receive these UPDATE messages).
> And according to Section 3, to be feasible, a route has to be used by the 
> router that advertises such a route as feasible.
> 
> To clarify I'll fix the definition of Feasible route as follows:
> 
>   Feasible route
> 
>      An advertised route that is available for use by the recipient.

This addresses my concern about ambiguity.  Thanks.

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings

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From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
To: Pedro Roque Marques <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] issue 11.2: active route, again [Re: comments on idr-bgp4-20]
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:41:52 +0300 (EEST)

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Pedro Roque Marques wrote:
> Pekka Savola writes:
> > Are there any killer arguments why this is *NOT* a good idea?
> 
> The main objective of BGP is to make sure that there are no routing or
> forwarding loops. When BGP advertises a route that is not in the
> forwarding table those guarantees disapear.

The route to the same prefix (and in this case, the same nexthop as well) 
_is_  in the forwarding table.

> The BGP specification is concerned w/ protocol correctness and needs
> to present a loop free algorithm.

I think it has been shown that this is not a real problem.

For example, in:

====
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:14:34 -0700
From: Dennis Ferguson <[email-masked]>
                                                                                                 
I have this view that routing protocols should be constrained to be
basically correct (i.e. do what is necessary to prevent loops and
otherwise ensure that they can actually reach the destinations they say
they can), but that anything else is fair game.  I don't like what Cisco
does, and certainly wouldn't have wanted the original BGP spec to say
this, since it is hard to think through a theoretical assurance of basic
correctness compared to just constraining routers to advertise only the
routes they are using.  On the other hand, they did it this way anyway and
we now have a lot of experience which says that routers can behave like
this without causing any particular damage, so I don't object to a change
which makes the document more closely reflect the practical reality.
=====

> It is an horse which as been beaten to death many times already in this
> mailing list.

And every time I looked at it, the reason why this was not done was 
because of some really bogus reasons, e.g. redistributing EBGP routes to 
IGP to get partial mesh-IBGP.  I failed to see this particular, very real 
scenario ever brought up in the discussion in the archives.

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings

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From: Pedro Roque Marques <[email-masked]>
To: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] issue 11.2: active route, again [Re: comments on idr-bgp4-20]
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:58:29 -0700 (PDT)

Pekka Savola writes:

> Are there any killer arguments why this is *NOT* a good idea?

The main objective of BGP is to make sure that there are no routing or
forwarding loops. When BGP advertises a route that is not in the
forwarding table those guarantees disapear.

The BGP specification is concerned w/ protocol correctness and needs
to present a loop free algorithm.

It is an horse which as been beaten to death many times already in
this mailing list.

  Pedro.

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To: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] comments on idr-bgp4-20 
From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:21:25 -0700

Pekka,

> substantial
> -----------
> 
> 1) Section 3 on Summary of the Operations, states:
> 
>    In the context of this document we assume that a BGP speaker adver-
>    tises to its peers only those routes that it itself uses (in this
>    context a BGP speaker is said to "use" a BGP route if it is the most
>    preferred BGP route and is used in forwarding). All other cases are
>    outside the scope of this document.
> 
> this "usability" requirement is in conflict with section 4.3 on UPDATE
> message format:
> 
>    An UPDATE message is used to advertise feasible routes sharing common
>    path attributes to a peer, [...]
> 
> ==> in particular note that "feasible" is a superset of "only those routes
> the router itself uses" (compare to "those routes the router itself _could_
> use if they were the most preferred ones"), right?

Keep in mind that the term "feasible" applies to routes *being* advertised 
by a BGP speaker (in BGP UPDATE messages). Such routes are available for use 
*by the recipients* (by the BGP speakers that receive these UPDATE messages).
And according to Section 3, to be feasible, a route has to be used by the 
router that advertises such a route as feasible.

To clarify I'll fix the definition of Feasible route as follows:

  Feasible route

     An advertised route that is available for use by the recipient.

Yakov.

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From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
To: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] issue 11.2: active route, again [Re: comments on idr-bgp4-20]
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:56:30 +0300 (EEST)

Hi again,

[clipping the quote down]

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Yakov Rekhter wrote:
[...]
> From draft-ietf-idr-bgp-issues-01.txt:
> 
>    After some additional discussion (in the "issue 11.2" thread), we
>    have come to a consensus on this text:
>    
>    In the context of this document we assume that a BGP speaker
>    advertises to its peers only those routes that it itself uses (in
>    this context a BGP speaker is said to "use" a BGP route if it is the 
>    most preferred BGP route and is used in forwarding). All other cases
>    are outside the scope of this document.
>    
>    This issue is at consensus.
> 
> So, the text in the spec represents consensus of the WG. Also note
> the last sentence in the above paragraph.

I've looked at the several threads in the archives, which do not seem to 
address the relevant points at all.

So, I think the issue needs to be reconsidered.

For example, consider a scenario of three routers in two ASs:

 rtr1 |      | rtr2 --- rtr3
 AS1  | ---- | AS2      AS2
 -----'      '-----

rtr3 is configured to advertise prefix 1.0.0.0/8 using BGP.  It has an
IBGP session to rtr2, where it will advertise it.  The AS2 also has an 
IGP, which includes only the loopbacks and point-to-point addresses of the 
AS.

IBGP also includes the loopback addresses and point-to-point addresses.
AS2 also wants to advertise the loopback addresses and PtP's to AS1 using
specific communities marked at the routers.  (There are multiple reasons
advertising loopbacks/ptps such is desirable.. for example, our network
employs private AS numbers and eBGP sessions and this is vital.)

Now, rtr2 advertises the prefix 1.0.0.0/8 just fine using eBGP to rtr1, 
but the loopback addresses and PtP's won't get advertised because the IGP 
is more preferred, and for BGP's perspective, the BGP routes are not 
"active".

Workarounds to this issue exist:
 - use an implementation-specific clause like "advertise-inactive", 
breaking the spec, to advertise them anyway, or
 - redistribute the IGP routes to BGP at the border router rtr2, losing 
communities etc. markings of iBGP in the process.  Ugly.

What I'm arguing here that there seem to be very clear operational reasons
why the "BGP route must be used for forwarding" is very counterproductive
and we should fix/clarify the spec to have a more useful definition for
it.

Are there any killer arguments why this is *NOT* a good idea?

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings

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From: "MR.PRINCE MOSES" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] urgent
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:56:55 -0700

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Regards, 
Mr.PRINCE MOSES 

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From: Ian Campbell <[email-masked]>
To: "'Jeffrey Haas'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:24:21 +0100

Of course there are problems a bit like this on route server based ethernet
based networks as well ;) Perhaps the most important one that I have come
across so far is the disconnection of ARP and switch MAC address tables when
asymmetric traffic flows are created - which is common enough in BGP. This
can cause traffic to be broadcast to all ports.

On the redundancy / co-ordination question. We currently dual session
everything in our exchange structure and have no links between our redundant
route server pairs - this of course means sending everything to client peers
twice. But IMHO lack of memory of peers is much less of a problem than it
may have been in the past. Most people have sufficient resources on their
boxes.

Regards,

Ian Campbell
Band-X Ltd.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Haas [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: 07 October 2003 15:55
To: Paul Jakma
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support

On Tue, Oct 07, 2003 at 03:41:36PM +0100, Paul Jakma wrote:
> eek yes. though, could one not regard this problem as one of an 
> IGP / network architecture nature. (make sure there are multiple, 
> robust paths between peering addresses). A lot of IXes these days 
> seem to be 100 or GigE based anyway - not ATM.

The issue is a more general one.  If you receive a route from someone
else and they are not in the forwarding path, you are much less
sure that the route will not be a blackhole.  This is true even of
several third-party nexthop scnenarios.

Admittedly, most of this was caused by ATM issues and a broadcast
media would be less prone to the problem.

> Yeah, co-ordination between route-servers would be a killer. So just 
> dont do it is what I'd say. Let the client cope with and discard 
> duplicates. :)

Depends on the problem you are wanting to solve.  You want all the
route instances, others want to proxy their policy.

-- 
Jeff Haas 
NextHop Technologies

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From: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
To: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 11:19:26 -0400

On Tue, Oct 07, 2003 at 04:09:24PM +0100, Paul Jakma wrote:
> Though, if the next-hops are /not/ on the broadcast media, then one 
> could ensure that a received BGP route's next-hop would have a 
> corresponding static in IGP. If not, pick another route which /does/ 
> have a valid next-hop in IGP.

The situation I was describing is a simple third-party nexthop
case.  Thus, the nexthop you give me needs to be on the same logical
network as the one we both share.

Using statics to resolve iBGP nexthops can lead to similar blackhole
issues if not done carefully.

> Though, this only would work for the 1863 style route-server, where 
> client-peers are fully informed and have multiple routes to choose 
> from.

This happens even in normal BGP. 

> For the RSng style 'path-selecting' RS, indeed, the RS might consider 
> a next-hop valid and pass on what it sees as best-path, but the 
> client might not have a route to the next-hop.

If the (non-route server) RS client can't resolve the nexthop,
then it should not consider it a feasible route for route selection
purposes.

> Absolutely. Though, 1863-style seems more robust (if you avoid trying 
> to co-ordinate the route-servers).

Given that we're at a point of stating opinions, I wish to make myself
clear:  I have no direct experience with 1863 and thus can't comment
on how well it worked beyond a theoretical case.  However, if we
were to want to solve the same problem *today*, I wouldn't use it.
I think we have better ideas at this point.

-- 
Jeff Haas 
NextHop Technologies

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From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
To: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:09:24 +0100 (IST)

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Jeffrey Haas wrote:

> The issue is a more general one.  If you receive a route from
> someone else and they are not in the forwarding path, you are much
> less sure that the route will not be a blackhole. 

True, yes.

Though, if the next-hops are /not/ on the broadcast media, then one 
could ensure that a received BGP route's next-hop would have a 
corresponding static in IGP. If not, pick another route which /does/ 
have a valid next-hop in IGP.

Though, this only would work for the 1863 style route-server, where 
client-peers are fully informed and have multiple routes to choose 
from.

For the RSng style 'path-selecting' RS, indeed, the RS might consider 
a next-hop valid and pass on what it sees as best-path, but the 
client might not have a route to the next-hop.

> This is true even of several third-party nexthop scnenarios.

Can you think of any in the 1863 style RS model? It seems to me that 
as the client receives all announcements, 1863 would be more robust 
to reachability problems. (if we presume the BGP next-hops are 
distributed as IGP statics, and the RS-client peers participate in 
the IGP).

> Admittedly, most of this was caused by ATM issues and a broadcast
> media would be less prone to the problem.

indeed :)

> Depends on the problem you are wanting to solve.  You want all the
> route instances, others want to proxy their policy.

Absolutely. Though, 1863-style seems more robust (if you avoid trying 
to co-ordinate the route-servers).

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
	warning: do not ever send email to [email-masked]
Fortune:
Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding.
		-- Albert Einstein

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To: IETF-Announce: ;
Cc: [email-masked]
From: [email-masked]
Reply-to: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-rfc3065bis-01.txt
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 11:04:28 -0400

--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Autonomous System Confederations for BGP
	Author(s)	: P. Traina
	Filename	: draft-ietf-idr-rfc3065bis-01.txt
	Pages		: 15
	Date		: 2003-10-7
	
The Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) is an inter-autonomous system
routing protocol designed for Transmission Control Protocol/Internet
Protocol (TCP/IP) networks.  BGP requires that all BGP speakers
within a single autonomous system (AS) must be fully meshed.  This
represents a serious scaling problem that has been well documented in
a number of proposals.

This document describes an extension to BGP which may be used to
create a confederation of autonomous systems that is represented as a
single autonomous system to BGP peers external to the confederation,
thereby removing the

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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From: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
To: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:54:38 -0400

On Tue, Oct 07, 2003 at 03:41:36PM +0100, Paul Jakma wrote:
> eek yes. though, could one not regard this problem as one of an 
> IGP / network architecture nature. (make sure there are multiple, 
> robust paths between peering addresses). A lot of IXes these days 
> seem to be 100 or GigE based anyway - not ATM.

The issue is a more general one.  If you receive a route from someone
else and they are not in the forwarding path, you are much less
sure that the route will not be a blackhole.  This is true even of
several third-party nexthop scnenarios.

Admittedly, most of this was caused by ATM issues and a broadcast
media would be less prone to the problem.

> Yeah, co-ordination between route-servers would be a killer. So just 
> dont do it is what I'd say. Let the client cope with and discard 
> duplicates. :)

Depends on the problem you are wanting to solve.  You want all the
route instances, others want to proxy their policy.

-- 
Jeff Haas 
NextHop Technologies

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From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
To: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:41:36 +0100 (IST)

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Jeffrey Haas wrote:

> Indeed.
> 
> A client *could* be another route server. :-)

yes :)

> The failover and coordination issues are likely some of the reasons
> why this never really caught on.  However, it does allow for you to
> avoid receiving multiple duplicate route instances from a peer
> which you can get even from just redundant route-reflector
> connections.

Just specifying that 1863 style RS-clients should be prepared for 
duplicates and to deal with it probably would have been the simplest 
solution. (perfect is the enemy of good :) )

> If you're trying to minimize for memory, this may be ideal.

I'm not too sure of the operational reasoning actually. I suspect
commercial sensitivity of client policy and operational simplicity of
not having to centralise that policy is the main factor in wanting
1863 style route-servers.

> In the context of RSd/RSng, in practice, being at one step removed
> in the forwarding plane from the router announcing was a serious
> operational issue.  Blackholing due to ATM PVC issues was way too
> common.

eek yes. though, could one not regard this problem as one of an 
IGP / network architecture nature. (make sure there are multiple, 
robust paths between peering addresses). A lot of IXes these days 
seem to be 100 or GigE based anyway - not ATM.

> Having to coordinate between route servers for failover would
> likely be more of an issue than just building your network to hold
> the extra route instances from your live backup.

Yeah, co-ordination between route-servers would be a killer. So just 
dont do it is what I'd say. Let the client cope with and discard 
duplicates. :)

> Understood.  It will be interesting to see how the two current
> proposals fare.

yes, it will be.

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
	warning: do not ever send email to [email-masked]
Fortune:
You can be replaced by this computer.

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From: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
To: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:21:17 -0400

On Tue, Oct 07, 2003 at 03:13:11PM +0100, Paul Jakma wrote:
> Seems reasonably clear in section 4.3.2:
> 
> "Route servers relay all acquired routes unaltered to their clients"

Indeed.

A client *could* be another route server. :-)

> Yes, though that bit of the RFC is a bit over-complex imho. Much 
> simpler just to let the clients go "oh, i received that already from 
> the other RS, ignore" in my mind. (given that clients probably would 
> have to be able to cope with condition anyway, as the RS-clustering 
> stuff (LIST message, lists of clients) seems a bit fragile to me).

The failover and coordination issues are likely some of the reasons
why this never really caught on.  However, it does allow for you
to avoid receiving multiple duplicate route instances from a peer
which you can get even from just redundant route-reflector connections.

If you're trying to minimize for memory, this may be ideal.  

In the context of RSd/RSng, in practice, being at one step removed
in the forwarding plane from the router announcing was a serious
operational issue.  Blackholing due to ATM PVC issues was way too
common.  Having to coordinate between route servers for failover
would likely be more of an issue than just building your network to
hold the extra route instances from your live backup.

> The spirit of RFC 1863, ie route-servers which operate along the vein
> of the first paragraph of Sec. 4.3.2 in RFC1863 - ie pass on all
> announcements and withdrawals without doing path-selection.
> 
> But it doesnt appear possible as things stand.

Understood.  It will be interesting to see how the two current proposals
fare.

-- 
Jeff Haas 
NextHop Technologies

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From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
To: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:13:11 +0100 (IST)

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Jeffrey Haas wrote:

> Sort of.
> 
> To give a specific counter-example, a rsd "view" may be the same
> for all peers of that view.  Route-selection was intended to be
> done on a per-view basis.

Yes, you could do it that way. Table per peer can be implemented by 
having one view per peering pairs.

> The language of the RFC is unclear enough that this is a valid
> assumption.

Seems reasonably clear in section 4.3.2:

"Route servers relay all acquired routes unaltered to their clients"

:)

> However, where's the benefit?  You minimize the overhead of peering
> sessions, but that is it.

That may be the only overhead you want to minimise, yes.

> The RFC does allow for route servers to share routes and distribute
> load thus making the proxy-routing case a bit easier to deal with.

Yes, though that bit of the RFC is a bit over-complex imho. Much 
simpler just to let the clients go "oh, i received that already from 
the other RS, ignore" in my mind. (given that clients probably would 
have to be able to cope with condition anyway, as the RS-clustering 
stuff (LIST message, lists of clients) seems a bit fragile to me).

> In the protocol, no.  In practice, people run virtual router
> instances and multiple peering sessions to accomplish some of this
> where it is seen as necessary.

yes. but thats high overhead :)

> What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

The spirit of RFC 1863, ie route-servers which operate along the vein
of the first paragraph of Sec. 4.3.2 in RFC1863 - ie pass on all
announcements and withdrawals without doing path-selection.

But it doesnt appear possible as things stand.

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
	warning: do not ever send email to [email-masked]
Fortune:
The Shuttle is now going five times the sound of speed.
		-- Dan Rather, first landing of Columbia

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From: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
To: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:00:37 -0400

On Tue, Oct 07, 2003 at 10:52:00AM +0100, Paul Jakma wrote:
> - 'policy aware/path selecting': ie does path-selection on behalf of
> the client (in accordance with its policies). This tends to require
> keeping a seperate table for each client. Ie policy must be applied
> /before/ path selection.

Sort of.

To give a specific counter-example, a rsd "view" may be the same
for all peers of that view.  Route-selection was intended to be
done on a per-view basis.

> - 'announcement reflector': One that passes on all announcements to 
> peers without doing any kind of best-path selection, possibly, but 
> not neccesarily applying policy before sendign announcement to the 
> client. 
> 
> The latter is what I understand 1863 to provide.

The language of the RFC is unclear enough that this is a valid
assumption.  However, where's the benefit?  You minimize the
overhead of peering sessions, but that is it.

The RFC does allow for route servers to share routes and distribute
load thus making the proxy-routing case a bit easier to deal with.

> > If you aren't having it carry out your policy for you, you're just
> > looking for something that can send multiple route instances. (See
> > other e-mails on this thread for examples.)
> 
> Yes, but its not possible with how BGP implementations stand today.

In the protocol, no.  In practice, people run virtual router instances
and multiple peering sessions to accomplish some of this where
it is seen as necessary.

> However, I believe many operators would like to see a mechanism that 
> allows an RS to be implemented that does /not/ require the RS to be 
> policy-aware.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

-- 
Jeff Haas 
NextHop Technologies

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To: [email-masked]
cc: [email-masked]
From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] IDR Agenda Items
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 06:29:14 -0700

Folks,
 
Its about time to start thinking about agenda items for the Minneapolis
IETF. Please forward any IDR agenda items you might have to me and Sue.

Sue & Yakov.

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From: Ian Campbell <[email-masked]>
To: "'Paul Jakma'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 11:44:19 +0100

Hello Paul,
	I would imagine in operation a route server like the one you have
defined would properly operate with in an environment where policy is held
in a mix of locations, that is some broad policy on the route server and
some more detailed policy for traffic control on the client router(s). This
would allow the expression of the kind of configurations that are used in
public IX today where some parties would not want certain parties to receive
their routes - usually for commercial reasons. Any solution would need to be
able to fully replicate all the features of direct BGP session based peering
as well as offer the advantages of route servers.

I have to confess to not having looked at RFC1863 since starting with the
development of our route server... however I had a bit more of a look at it
when this thread came up. However, I think that Manav's draft offers exactly
enough of a solution to what you/we are looking for; certainly it could be
added to our implementation without too much trouble to allow a pure mode
(where all announcements are sent) like you suggest or the mixed mode (some
announcements sent based on broad policy) mentioned above.

Regards,

Ian Campbell
Band-X Ltd.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Jakma [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: 07 October 2003 10:52
To: Jeffrey Haas
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Jeffrey Haas wrote:

> A route-server is generally meant to be a proxy-routing
> concentrator.

Well, there's 2 types, AIUI:

- 'policy aware/path selecting': ie does path-selection on behalf of
the client (in accordance with its policies). This tends to require
keeping a seperate table for each client. Ie policy must be applied
/before/ path selection.

(to apply policy afterwards may mean the path-selected is not 
applicable due to client policy. however, there may be other paths 
which /are/ applicable.)

This type of RS needs no modifications to client BGP implementations. 
The RS never needs to have more than announcement outstanding to a 
client at any one time. (ie to the client the RS is a normal eBGP 
peer).

- 'announcement reflector': One that passes on all announcements to 
peers without doing any kind of best-path selection, possibly, but 
not neccesarily applying policy before sendign announcement to the 
client. 

The latter is what I understand 1863 to provide. However, given the
impossiblity of discriminating between multiple previous
announcements when withdrawing a prefix in BGP, the latter is not
possible without some additional mechanisms (eg the NEXT_HOP set to
client address mechanism + ADVERTISER attribute described in 1863).

AIUI anyway. :)

> If you aren't having it carry out your policy for you, you're just
> looking for something that can send multiple route instances. (See
> other e-mails on this thread for examples.)

Yes, but its not possible with how BGP implementations stand today.

> Based on my conversations with others, I believe there was one or
> two implementations of 1863, but it was not widely deployed.

Shame. It seems an OK RFC. (except for the LIST message and the
RS-Cluster stuff - which i think would be impossible to implement
reliably.  Never mind unneccessary - clients could just put up with
receiving the same announcement from multiple RSes).

> The most widely deployed route server environment to my knowledge
> was Merit's RSng project (http://www.rsng.net for some archives)
> and its predecessor project (which I have no documentation or
> history for).

Indeed, AFAICT, RSng is of the 'policy aware' or 'path selecting' 
type.

However, I believe many operators would like to see a mechanism that 
allows an RS to be implemented that does /not/ require the RS to be 
policy-aware. Ie because of the overhead of keeping RSes configured 
with client policy, and, possibly more important, because policy can 
be commercially sensitive and many operators of potential RS-client 
peers do not wish to have to register their policy with a 3rd party 
(eg an IX operating an RS).

So it would be nice to have some means to allow implementing an RS
that was 'dumb' and simply reflected on /all/ announcements and
withdrawals.

I'll have a look at Manav's ECMP_NEXT_HOP draft and offer comment.

thanks!

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
	warning: do not ever send email to [email-masked]
Fortune:
Running Windows on a Pentium is like having a brand new Porsche but only
be able to drive backwards with the handbrake on.
(Unknown source)

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From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
To: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:52:00 +0100 (IST)

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Jeffrey Haas wrote:

> A route-server is generally meant to be a proxy-routing
> concentrator.

Well, there's 2 types, AIUI:

- 'policy aware/path selecting': ie does path-selection on behalf of
the client (in accordance with its policies). This tends to require
keeping a seperate table for each client. Ie policy must be applied
/before/ path selection.

(to apply policy afterwards may mean the path-selected is not 
applicable due to client policy. however, there may be other paths 
which /are/ applicable.)

This type of RS needs no modifications to client BGP implementations. 
The RS never needs to have more than announcement outstanding to a 
client at any one time. (ie to the client the RS is a normal eBGP 
peer).

- 'announcement reflector': One that passes on all announcements to 
peers without doing any kind of best-path selection, possibly, but 
not neccesarily applying policy before sendign announcement to the 
client. 

The latter is what I understand 1863 to provide. However, given the
impossiblity of discriminating between multiple previous
announcements when withdrawing a prefix in BGP, the latter is not
possible without some additional mechanisms (eg the NEXT_HOP set to
client address mechanism + ADVERTISER attribute described in 1863).

AIUI anyway. :)

> If you aren't having it carry out your policy for you, you're just
> looking for something that can send multiple route instances. (See
> other e-mails on this thread for examples.)

Yes, but its not possible with how BGP implementations stand today.

> Based on my conversations with others, I believe there was one or
> two implementations of 1863, but it was not widely deployed.

Shame. It seems an OK RFC. (except for the LIST message and the
RS-Cluster stuff - which i think would be impossible to implement
reliably.  Never mind unneccessary - clients could just put up with
receiving the same announcement from multiple RSes).

> The most widely deployed route server environment to my knowledge
> was Merit's RSng project (http://www.rsng.net for some archives)
> and its predecessor project (which I have no documentation or
> history for).

Indeed, AFAICT, RSng is of the 'policy aware' or 'path selecting' 
type.

However, I believe many operators would like to see a mechanism that 
allows an RS to be implemented that does /not/ require the RS to be 
policy-aware. Ie because of the overhead of keeping RSes configured 
with client policy, and, possibly more important, because policy can 
be commercially sensitive and many operators of potential RS-client 
peers do not wish to have to register their policy with a 3rd party 
(eg an IX operating an RS).

So it would be nice to have some means to allow implementing an RS
that was 'dumb' and simply reflected on /all/ announcements and
withdrawals.

I'll have a look at Manav's ECMP_NEXT_HOP draft and offer comment.

thanks!

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
	warning: do not ever send email to [email-masked]
Fortune:
Running Windows on a Pentium is like having a brand new Porsche but only
be able to drive backwards with the handbrake on.
(Unknown source)

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From: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
To: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:09:20 -0400

Paul,

On Fri, Oct 03, 2003 at 01:49:30PM +0100, Paul Jakma wrote:
> It seems 1863 is the only thing out there for route-serving which 
> does not require policy to be defined on the RS itself.

A route-server is generally meant to be a proxy-routing concentrator.
If you aren't having it carry out your policy for you, you're just
looking for something that can send multiple route instances.
(See other e-mails on this thread for examples.)

> However, i 
> can find no mention of support for this RFC in the documentation of 
> major BGP implementations, other than in the RFC citations.

Based on my conversations with others, I believe there was one or
two implementations of 1863, but it was not widely deployed.  The most
widely deployed route server environment to my knowledge was Merit's
RSng project (http://www.rsng.net for some archives) and its predecessor
project (which I have no documentation or history for).

-- 
Jeff Haas 
NextHop Technologies

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From: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
To: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>, Ian Campbell <[email-masked]>
Cc: Inter-Domain Routing List <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:04:01 -0400

On Mon, Oct 06, 2003 at 01:54:56AM +0100, Paul Jakma wrote:
> - is there any portable way to announce a prefix multiple times to a 
> peer and be able to withdraw a /specific/ announcement? (implicit 
> withdraw?)

If you are talking strictly within the context of a route server,
then 1863 has a mechanism already in it.  However, 1863 has
more than most people want out of a route server cluster in many
cases.  Recent proposals, including Manav's seem a bit cleaner.

An interesting question is whether those proposals have been
considered in a proxy-route-selection environment.  1863 was designed
specifically for those requirements.

> Essentially, is it possible to create a transparent route-server 
> which does /not/ have to do path-selection on behalf of client ebgp 
> peers (which requires the route-server to be configured with all 
> client peers policies).

Manav's draft, also draft-walton-bgp-add-paths

> PS: I'm not receiving mail from this list, though I thought I had 
> subscribed.

You may wish to verify you're subscribed to [email-masked].

-- 
Jeff Haas 
NextHop Technologies

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content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Subject: RE: [Idr] comments on idr-bgp4-20
From: "Susan Hares" <[email-masked]>
To: "John G. Scudder" <[email-masked]>, "Pekka Savola" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:30:42 -0400

I'll work on both.

Sue
-----Original Message-----
From: John G. Scudder [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 9:22 AM
To: Pekka Savola
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] comments on idr-bgp4-20

At 8:57 AM +0300 10/6/03, Pekka Savola wrote:
>The WG mailing list archives only start recently. Is there an archive
>available somewhere

ftp://ftp.merit.edu/mail.archives/idr/

Sue/Yakov, IMO it would probably be good to either migrate the old 
archives to the new and improved (?) IETF page, or add a pointer to 
the historical archives to the IDR WG page.

--John

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From: Srikanth Chavali <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:41:41 -0400

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<li><em>Reply-to</em>: <a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a></li>
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<pre>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title		: Peer Prefix Limits Exchange in BGP
	Author(s)	: S. Chavali et al.
	Filename	: draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt
	Pages		: 14
	Date		: 2003-9-25
	
This document proposes a mechanism to allow BGP peers to coordinate
the setting of a limit on the number of prefixes which one BGP
speaker will send to its peer.  Coordination can prevent disruption
of the peering session or discarding of routes, which can occur when
a maximum prefix limit is configured on the 'receiving' peer, and the
'sending' peer exceeds the limit.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
<a  href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt</a>

To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to 
ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
&quot;anonymous&quot; and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type &quot;cd internet-drafts&quot; and then
	&quot;get draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt&quot;.

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
<a  href="http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html">http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html</a> 
or <a  href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a>

Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
	[email-masked].
In the body type:
	&quot;FILE /internet-drafts/draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt&quot;.
	
NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the &quot;mpack&quot; utility.  To use this
	feature, insert the command &quot;ENCODING mime&quot; before the &quot;FILE&quot;
	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need &quot;munpack&quot; or
	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
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	&quot;multipart&quot; MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
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</pre>
<dl><dt><a href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt">&lt;ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chavali-bgp-prefixlimit-00.txt&gt;</a></dt><dd>
</dd></dl>

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From: Ian Campbell <[email-masked]>
To: "'Manav Bhatia'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 15:33:37 +0100

Thanks for that Manav,
	Very interesting, shows I should check this list a little more
often! I can see how this could be useful for creation of route server
clusters (which are calculating best path for clients) as well as the
original intended application. The reason for clusters in our case is to
provide a way of scaling numbers of peers up by distributing CPU resources
(for best path calculation), as well as to a limited extent memory
resources. 

I can also see how our present software might be modified to allow peers
greater control of their own policy by using the draft attributes as you
intend (not too much of a jump!). Has there been any other interest shown so
far?

Regards,

Ian Campbell
Band-X Ltd.

-----Original Message-----
From: Manav Bhatia [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: 06 October 2003 14:02
To: Ian Campbell
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support

Ian,

> Using the standard protocol there is no way to selectively withdraw a
> prefix, as there is no way to associate a withdraw message with a set of
> attributes. That is even if you could get the end implementation to not
> overwrite the current attribute information for a prefix (from a
particular
> peer) on update.

You can do this with
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bhatia-ecmp-routes-in-bgp-00.txt

To see how it may do that refer to
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/03jul/slides/idr-4/index.html

http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/03jul/slides/idr-4/sld13.HTM
shows how one may selectively withdraw a prefix associated with a set of
Path Attributes.

Regards,
Manav

[clipped]

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To: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
From: "John G. Scudder" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] comments on idr-bgp4-20
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:22:05 -0400

At 8:57 AM +0300 10/6/03, Pekka Savola wrote:
>The WG mailing list archives only start recently. Is there an archive
>available somewhere

ftp://ftp.merit.edu/mail.archives/idr/

Sue/Yakov, IMO it would probably be good to either migrate the old 
archives to the new and improved (?) IETF page, or add a pointer to 
the historical archives to the IDR WG page.

--John

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From: Manav Bhatia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
To: Ian Campbell <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Reply-to: Manav Bhatia <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:32:08 +0530

Ian,

> Using the standard protocol there is no way to selectively withdraw a
> prefix, as there is no way to associate a withdraw message with a set of
> attributes. That is even if you could get the end implementation to not
> overwrite the current attribute information for a prefix (from a
particular
> peer) on update.

You can do this with
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bhatia-ecmp-routes-in-bgp-00.txt

To see how it may do that refer to
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/03jul/slides/idr-4/index.html

http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/03jul/slides/idr-4/sld13.HTM
shows how one may selectively withdraw a prefix associated with a set of
Path Attributes.

Regards,
Manav

[clipped]

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From: Ian Campbell <[email-masked]>
To: "'Paul Jakma'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: Inter-Domain Routing List <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:45:43 +0100

Hello Paul,
	Saw this thread and couldn't resist replying to it as I have been
down this road already!

Using the standard protocol there is no way to selectively withdraw a
prefix, as there is no way to associate a withdraw message with a set of
attributes. That is even if you could get the end implementation to not
overwrite the current attribute information for a prefix (from a particular
peer) on update. 

The only way to achieve something like this would be to use something like
the RFC2547 standard for VPNs and change it to carry an appropriate
discriminator for the particular update/withdraw combination. I have
actually looked at this for our route server implementation as way of
generating a clustering solution for route server systems. 

However to talk to a standard implementation the route server really needs
to calculate path selection on its client peers behalf. This is exactly what
our route server implementation does, in fact our implementation has a
separate RIB for each connected peer so as to allow for complete
flexibility.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Ian Campbell
Band-X Ltd.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Jakma [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: 06 October 2003 01:55
To: Manav Bhatia
Cc: Inter-Domain Routing List
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support

Hi Manav,

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Manav Bhatia wrote:

> Hi Paul,
> 
> There are severe scaling problems with RFC 1863 and hence you wont find
> many implementations supporting this (Path Attributes 12 and 13).

Ah, ok. Out of curiosity: what are the scaling problems?

Then my next question is:

- is there any portable way to announce a prefix multiple times to a 
peer and be able to withdraw a /specific/ announcement? (implicit 
withdraw?)

Essentially, is it possible to create a transparent route-server 
which does /not/ have to do path-selection on behalf of client ebgp 
peers (which requires the route-server to be configured with all 
client peers policies). Ie a route-server which simply passes on 
all announcements received to all 'client' peers? Passing on the 
announcements of prefixes isnt a problem, but i'm not sure how an RS 
would discriminate withrawals (without withdrawing a prefix then 
reannouncing remaining valid announcements - but that is not feasible 
because of stability).

thanks in advance,

> Regards,
> Manav

PS: I'm not receiving mail from this list, though I thought I had 
subscribed.

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
	warning: do not ever send email to [email-masked]
Fortune:
The difference between a career and a job is about 20 hours a week.

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From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
To: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] comments on idr-bgp4-20 
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:57:02 +0300 (EEST)

Sorry for delay in responding..

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Yakov Rekhter wrote:
> > Responding to two issues which seem may warrant further discussion from 
> > me..
> > 
> > On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Yakov Rekhter wrote:
> > > >  - I got major headache when trying to read the aggregating rules
> > > > especially in section 9.2.2.2 (and that was supposed to be the _simple_
> > > > rules :-(!!!) and ended up skipping them.
> > > > 
> > > > substantial
> > > > -----------
> > > > 
> > > > 1) Section 3 on Summary of the Operations, states:
> > > > 
> > > >    In the context of this document we assume that a BGP speaker adver-
> > > >    tises to its peers only those routes that it itself uses (in this
> > > >    context a BGP speaker is said to "use" a BGP route if it is the most
> > > >    preferred BGP route and is used in forwarding). All other cases are
> > > >    outside the scope of this document.
> > > > 
> > > > this "usability" requirement is in conflict with section 4.3 on UPDATE
> > > > message format:
> > > > 
> > > >    An UPDATE message is used to advertise feasible routes sharing common
> > > >    path attributes to a peer, [...]
> > > > 
> > > > ==> in particular note that "feasible" is a superset of "only those route
> s
> > > > the router itself uses" (compare to "those routes the router itself _coul
> d_
> > > > use if they were the most preferred ones"), right?
> 
> Could you point me to the text in the spec that said that "feasible" is 
> a superset of "only those routes that the router itself uses" ?

Look at the two quetes above and the definition of feasible:

   Feasible route
      A route that is available for use.

Note: it says "is _available_ for use", not "is _being_ used".

So, it seems clear that "feasible" seems to include also those routes 
which could be used, but for some reason (e.g. a preferred route exists) 
aren't.

> > > > ==> also note that the former definition is (IMHO) operationally unsound.
> > > > It prevents you from advertising P-t-P addresses and loopbacks (which als
> o 
> > > > reside in IGP) using BGP, because the IGP distance is lower than BGP and 
> > > > "BGP route is never used in forwarding". (depending on how you interpret 
> > > > that).  IMHO, this really needs to be changed to be OK.
> > > 
> > > The current text reflects consensus reached by the WG.
> > 
> > Note that there are two issues here:
> >  1) the text is out-of-sync between sections 3 and 4.3, and
> >  2) that the current definition of BGP route used for forwarding is not 
> > really useful.
> > 
> > I take it that the comment 1) is still valid.
> > 
> > Has 2) -- which you were probably referring to -- been raised as an issue
> > in the spec?  Any pointers to the issue, discussion, and the conclusion
> > (the answer to the question "Why did the WG decide this way?")  I fail to
> > see why such a conclusion would be justified.. and if the relevant points 
> > haven't been raised already, I probably want to re-open that debate.
> 
> >From draft-ietf-idr-bgp-issues-01.txt:
> 
>    After some additional discussion (in the "issue 11.2" thread), we
>    have come to a consensus on this text:
>    
>    In the context of this document we assume that a BGP speaker
>    advertises to its peers only those routes that it itself uses (in
>    this context a BGP speaker is said to "use" a BGP route if it is the 
>    most preferred BGP route and is used in forwarding). All other cases
>    are outside the scope of this document.
>    
>    This issue is at consensus.
> 
> So, the text in the spec represents consensus of the WG. Also note
> the last sentence in the above paragraph.

Thanks.  

There seems to have been some discussion on this, sure, but I don't see 
anything in the issue 11.2 text in the draft which would indicate why this 
definition of "use" has been adapted.

The WG mailing list archives only start recently. Is there an archive
available somewhere which documents the discussion noted in the 11.2?
When was that discussion held?

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings

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From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
To: Manav Bhatia <[email-masked]>
cc: Inter-Domain Routing List <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 01:54:56 +0100 (IST)

Hi Manav,

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Manav Bhatia wrote:

> Hi Paul,
> 
> There are severe scaling problems with RFC 1863 and hence you wont find
> many implementations supporting this (Path Attributes 12 and 13).

Ah, ok. Out of curiosity: what are the scaling problems?

Then my next question is:

- is there any portable way to announce a prefix multiple times to a 
peer and be able to withdraw a /specific/ announcement? (implicit 
withdraw?)

Essentially, is it possible to create a transparent route-server 
which does /not/ have to do path-selection on behalf of client ebgp 
peers (which requires the route-server to be configured with all 
client peers policies). Ie a route-server which simply passes on 
all announcements received to all 'client' peers? Passing on the 
announcements of prefixes isnt a problem, but i'm not sure how an RS 
would discriminate withrawals (without withdrawing a prefix then 
reannouncing remaining valid announcements - but that is not feasible 
because of stability).

thanks in advance,

> Regards,
> Manav

PS: I'm not receiving mail from this list, though I thought I had 
subscribed.

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
	warning: do not ever send email to [email-masked]
Fortune:
The difference between a career and a job is about 20 hours a week.

_______________________________________________
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From: "Loi C. Estrada" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] Earnest Appeal
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:59:05 -0700

Dear Friend,
   
My name is LOI C.ESTRADA,The wife of Mr. JOSEPH
ESTRADA, the former President of Philippines
located in the South East Asia. My husband was
recently impeached from office by a backed uprising
of mass demonstrators and the Senate. My husband is
presently in jail and facing trial on 
charges of corruption, embezzlement, and the
mysterious charge of plunder which might lead to 
death sentence. The present government is forcing my
husband out of Manila to avoid demonstration
by his supporter. During my husband's regime as
president of Philippine, I realized some reasonable
amount of money from various deals that I successfully
executed. I have plans to invest this money
for my children's future on real estate and industrial
production. My husband is not aware of this
because I wish to do it secretly for now. Before my
husband was impeached, I secretly siphoned 
the sum of $38,000,000 million USD (Thirty Eight
million United states dollars) out of Philippines
and deposited the money with a Finance firm that
transports valuable goods and consignments through
diplomatic means. 
    
    I am contacting you because I want you to
represent me as the beneficiary at the finance firm
and claim 
the money on my behalf since I have declared that the
consignment belong to my foreign business 
partner. You shall also be required to assist me in
investment my share in your country. 
I hope to trust you as a God fearing person who will
not sit on this money when you claim it, rather assist
me 
properly, I expect you to declare what percentage of
the total money you will take for your assistance,
When I receive your positive response 
    I will let you know where the Finanace company is
and the payment pin code to claim the money
which is very important. For now, let all our
communication be by e-mail because my lines are 
right now connected to the Philippines
Telecommunication Network services. Please also send
me 
your telephone and fax number. I will ask my son to
contact you to give you more details on the
transaction 
and speedy the completion as soon as I received a
positive response from you. 
 
Thank you and God bless you and family.
 
Mrs. Loi C. Estrada 

alternate email address: [email-masked]

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From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
To: Dennis Ferguson <[email-masked]>
cc: "John G. Scudder" <[email-masked]>, Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] comments on idr-bgp4-20 
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 08:59:35 +0300 (EEST)

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Dennis Ferguson wrote:
> > > > It is a bug in the specification sense because the spec does not include 
> > > > text that you should do loop prevention by discarding the path when it 
> > > > contains your own AS.
> > > 
> > > The minimal theoretical requirement for loop termination (BGP doesn't
> > > prevent loops which occur transiently, just guarantees they'll eventually
> > > be stopped) is that you should discard the path when it includes your
> > > own AS `N' times, for any `N' you care to choose.  While N=1, which you like,
> > > will terminate loops, letting N=2 or N=5 or N=12 will terminate them
> > > just fine as well (though you are wasting convergence time if you make
> > > `N' larger than the number of inter-AS border routers you have, at most).
> > > It hence isn't a bug to allow `N' to be set to a value other than 1 in
> > > any theoretical sense.
> > 
> > I wouldn't call such an AS having a coherent routing plan.  If you allow 
> > AS > 1, you're abusing the term AS.
> 
> I notice you've changed the subject from one of protocol correctness, i.e.
> whether routing loops are guaranteed to terminate, to one of policy, i.e.
> whether, in your opinion, it is a good idea to do this to solve routing
> problems one might have when using the protocol.

These are invariably linked.  BGP is built on a set of assumptions (e.g.
on what it means to be an AS), and this seems to break that assumption.  
 
> As the people who originally responded to you implied, the BGP protocol
> specification has always tried to limit itself to ensuring protocol
> correctness while leaving policy to the users of the protocol.  I think
> that's still appropriate.

That's a good goal, but going too far on that path is not useful... when 
it requires changes or features in the protocol to accommodate for the 
"policies" of the users.
 
> > > > Further, there is no need to do anything of this sort if you get default 
> > > > routes from the Internet, or set up a backup (highest protocol distance) 
> > > > route towards the Internet.
> > > 
> > > I'm sure you don't mean that one or the other of those things is always
> > > possible to do.  It is when neither of those things is possible that you
> > > might want to set N>1 instead.
> > 
> > Can you shown me a couple (or at least _one_) example where other methods 
> > are not possible and this is required?
>  
> Suppose the operators of two multiply-connected networks agree to provide
> backup routing to heal each other's partitions without offering transit
> to the rest of "the Internet".  Here you need explicit routing for the
> destinations being backed up (they may already default traffic to "the
> Internet" to other providers), and you certainly can't have two guys
> pointing default routes at each other in any case.

One can use explicit static routes to each other.  Even a default route at
one end, as long as you guarantee that at least one party has the full
routing routing table, is possible.

> Or, suppose three operators have entered into a similar arrangement, with
> the partitioned guy being allowed to split his load across the other two.
> You can't have two default routes pointing at different guys (especially
> if "the Internet" is in some other direction), and you generally need
> explicit routes to get a predictable load split.

Equal cost multipathing should allow one to load-balance with a default 
route as well.  Inbound traffic would be load split more roughly.

But I don't think this is a realistic scenario.  Planning for load 
balacing during the network partition... hello?
 
> Of course these are only problems I can think of, there are likely
> lots more problems that I can't imagine.  The latter is the reason the
> BGP specification should limit itself to protocol correctness issues,
> leaving policy issues to the protocol users who actually have the
> problems to solve.

In both cases tunnels should fix the problem, and eliminate the root cause 
for this kind of behaviour.

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings

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From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] rfc1863 - route-server rfc support
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:49:30 +0100 (IST)

Hi,

I'm wondering about RFC1863 and how widely it is supported. In 
particular support for the client-mode aspects of the RFC, in 
particular the 2 following details:

- 1863 specifies that a Route-Server (RS) can withdraw a specific 
announcement by sending the full announcement to the client but with 
the next-hop address in the next-hop attribute set to one of the 
addresses of the client.

- presumably the RS-client can use the Advertiser attribute (which an
RFC1863 RS should include in updates), or any other (if included), to
discriminate between which announcements for that prefix the
withdrawal was referring to.

How many BGP implementations support these 2 things? Ie recognition 
of advertiser attribute and of next-hop-self withdrawal? (and can 
they properly discriminate withdrawals?)

It seems 1863 is the only thing out there for route-serving which 
does not require policy to be defined on the RS itself. However, i 
can find no mention of support for this RFC in the documentation of 
major BGP implementations, other than in the RFC citations.

Thanks in advance.

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
	warning: do not ever send email to [email-masked]
Fortune:
It's a naive, domestic operating system without any breeding, but I
think you'll be amused by its presumption.

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