Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:50:01 -0500

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: The AS_HOPCOUNT Path Attribute
	Author(s)	: T. Li, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
	Pages		: 16
	Date		: 2005-12-29
	
   This document describes the AS hopcount path attribute for BGP.  This
   is an optional, transitive path attribute that is designed to help
   limit the distribution of routing information in the Internet.

   By default, prefixes advertised into the BGP mesh are distributed
   freely, and if not blocked by policy will propagate globally.  This
   is harmful to the scalability of the routing subsystem since
   information that only has a local effect on routing will cause state
   creation throughout the default-free zone.  This attribute can be
   attached to a particular path to limit its scope to a subset of the
   Internet.

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---

From: John Leslie <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:13:57 -0500

>    limit the distribution of routing information in the Internet.

   I thoroughly agree it should be optional transitive.

   However, IMHO, we have an obligation to carefully consider the effects
of passing such an attribute through BGP speakers which don't recognize
it.

   Thus, I would much prefer that BGP speakers which recognize it
MUST NOT modify it -- their action should be limited to discarding the
NLRI based upon it.

   This implies that it should contain a number which is the maximum
"path length" to which the NLRI is intended to propagate (with clear
definition of how to count this "path length". (I am agnostic on
whether this should equal AS_Path_Length, a count of different ASs
in the AS_Path, or something else entirely.)

   Several other issues jump out at me:

- if there is to be any interaction with the NO_EXPORT community
  attribute, we should carefully consider what is appropriate if the
  NO_EXPORT is added after the AS_HOPCOUNT by a BGP speaker which
  does not understand AS_HOPCOUNT.

- I'm slightly nervous about specifying the use of a 4-byte AS number
  for BGP speakers which recognize AS_HOPCOUNT but not 4-byte AS numbers.
  (At worst, though, this is a documentation issue.)

- The interaction with ATOMIC_AGGREGATE introduces a potential for some
  issues. I quite understand the suggestion (it's not a MUST or SHOULD)
  that the BGP speaker which introduces the AS_HOPCOUNT on a more-specific
  NLRI put ATOMIC-AGGREGATE on the less-specific (without the AS_HOPCOUNT).
  This does seem far safer than hoping some other BGP speaker will add it,
  but there's a nagging doubt... I need to think about it more.

--
John Leslie <[email-masked]>

---

From: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:30:12 -0500

> of passing such an attribute through BGP speakers which don't recognize

Can someone clarify something real quick: you are saying if a speaker receives 
an attribute that it does not recognize, it will dutifully pass it along?

> MUST NOT modify it -- their action should be limited to discarding the

If the answer to my question is 'yes', then the above seems the more correct 
way to go, as an NLRI could pass through an unknown number of ASes where the 
hopcount attribute is not correctly decremented, and when it arrives at a BGP 
speaker that recognizes the attribute, the information is wrong.  If the 
hopcount is not modified in transit, but simply compared with the AS path 
length, this problem is avoided, along with the problem of what to do with AS 
prepends or other AS path modifications that may not be coming to mind. 
However this would negatively impact the operation of other sections such as 
Proxy Control, where an intervening provider could no longer simply specify the 
number of additional ASes to traverse, but must take into account the current 
path length and hope that it doesn't change (though I think this is an 
acceptable trade off).

---

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:52:07 -0800

On Dec 29, 2005, at 8:30 PM, Andrew Lee wrote:
> Can someone clarify something real quick: you are saying if a  
> speaker receives an attribute that it does not recognize, it will  
> dutifully pass it along?

That is correct.  BGP stipulates that a speaker that receives a  
transitive optional
attribute that it does not recognize should simply propagate the  
attribute untouched.

> If the answer to my question is 'yes', then the above seems the  
> more correct way to go, as an NLRI could pass through an unknown  
> number of ASes where the hopcount attribute is not correctly  
> decremented, and when it arrives at a BGP speaker that recognizes  
> the attribute, the information is wrong.  If the hopcount is not  
> modified in transit, but simply compared with the AS path length,  
> this problem is avoided, along with the problem of what to do with  
> AS prepends or other AS path modifications that may not be coming  
> to mind. However this would negatively impact the operation of  
> other sections such as Proxy Control, where an intervening provider  
> could no longer simply specify the number of additional ASes to  
> traverse, but must take into account the current path length and  
> hope that it doesn't change (though I think this is an acceptable  
> trade off).

If you re-read the draft, I think that you'll find that the behavior  
that you want is achieved by including
NO_EXPORT along with AS_HOPCOUNT.  This will cause ASes that don't  
recognize AS_HOPCOUNT
to drop the path.

Note that there is *no* guarantee (nor even a specification) of what  
value the AS_HOPCOUNT will
have when it reaches a given point in the network.  While the  
specification of how it operates is
already clearly defined (IMHO ;-) the vagaries of non-recognizing  
implementations combined with
the policy flexibility of adding the attribute by ASes other than the  
originator basically implies that
the result will only be deterministic through extremely detailed  
analysis taking into account each
and every BGP speaker that is traversed, it's implementation and  
version.

I'll also note that forbidding an AS from modifying path attributes  
would only give us a false sense of
security.  An AS that really wanted to perform this function would  
simply end up deploying a
non-compliant implementation.  At this point, the lack of a BGP  
police force and a BGP jail would
leave us staring at each other, looking silly.  Thus, we do not issue  
mandates that prohibit behavior
unless we can demonstrate that it negates interoperability.  This is  
a philosophical constant not
only throughout BGP but throughout most of the IETF's work as well.

Regards,
Tony
Protocol Police, Badge #47

---

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:17:24 -0800

John,

>   does not understand AS_HOPCOUNT.

This is already specified in the draft.  If a speaker receives  
AS_HOPCOUNT
with NO_EXPORT, it cannot determine whether NO_EXPORT was added by
the originator or some other AS in the path.

>   (At worst, though, this is a documentation issue.)

Presumably any implementation that parsed AS_HOPCOUNT but did not yet
support 4-byte AS numbers would simply pass the AS number through to the
management interface as a 4-byte number.

Regards,
Tony

---

From: John Leslie <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:01:03 -0500

Tony Li <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> [John Leslie wrote:]
>>> However, IMHO, we have an obligation to carefully consider the  
>>> effects of passing such an attribute through BGP speakers which
>>> don't recognize it.
>>
> transitive optional attribute that it does not recognize should
> simply propagate the attribute untouched.
> 
>>> MUST NOT modify it -- their action should be limited to discarding  
>>> the NLRI based upon it.
>>
> that you want is achieved by including NO_EXPORT along with AS_HOPCOUNT.
> This will cause ASes that don't recognize AS_HOPCOUNT to drop the path.

   I don't presume to know what Andrew "wants"; but I think that's the
wrong question. Instead, we should worry whether the results are
sufficiently predictable. IMHO, it is neither predictable nor stable
whether any particular BGP speaker will recognize the AS_HOPCOUNT
attribute.

> value the AS_HOPCOUNT will have when it reaches a given point in the
> network.
> ... the vagaries of non-recognizing implementations combined with
> the policy flexibility of adding the attribute by ASes other than
> the originator basically implies that the result will only be
> deterministic through extremely detailed analysis taking into account
> each and every BGP speaker that is traversed, its implementation and  
> version.

   My point exactly: we shouldn't be starting down that road. We want
something which can have a (somewhat) predictable effect beyond the
inserting AS. Pretty much by definition this means we won't know,
from day to day, what versions of software will be running on their
routers.

> would only give us a false sense of security. An AS that really
> wanted to perform this function would  simply end up deploying a
> non-compliant implementation.

   "MUST NOT" doesn't mean we have to call the cops: it simply means
that any implementation which does what we say it "MUST NOT" can't
argue that it's compliant.

---

From: John Leslie <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:08:55 -0500

Tony Li <[email-masked]> wrote:
> John [Leslie wrote],
> AS_HOPCOUNT with NO_EXPORT, it cannot determine whether NO_EXPORT
> was added by the originator or some other AS in the path.

   What the draft specifies seems dubious: that NO_EXPORT must be
ignored in the presence of an AS_HOPCOUNT -- whether or not the
NO_EXPORT was added by the AS which inserted the AS_HOPCOUNT.
Thus inserting an AS_HOPCOUNT may override the NO_EXPORT function
for peer ASs.

---

From: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:26:59 -0500

> whether any particular BGP speaker will recognize the AS_HOPCOUNT

Then I shall use more verbage instead of relying on my telepatic interperative 
dancing to express my idea.  I am less concerned with any particular BGP 
speaker recognizing or not recognizing the attribute, than I am will the effect 
that has on what the hopcount attribute is trying to accomplish.

Example (using the diagram in the draft):

Site A advertises Y to its upstreams with hopcount=2, but C, D and E do not 
support the draft.   When Y reaches H and F, hopcount will still be 2, as the 
intervening systems did not decrement it.  H and F will decrement hopcount, and 
advertise it to its peers and customers, who would then decrement it and 
advertise it, where it would stop.  The total hopcount would actually be 5.

If we modify the behavior in 5.b such that instead of decrementing the 
hopcount, the speaker simply compares the path length to the hopcount and makes 
a decision on whether to accept or advertise, then the following would happen:

Site A advertises Y to its upstreams with hopcount=3 (to account for its own 
AS), but C, D and E do not support the draft.  When Y reaches H and F, they 
will compare (path-len=3) >= (hopcount=3) and not accept the route. 
Coincidently this is the behavior Site A was hoping for, and I will leave it as 
an exercise for the reader to imagine a scenario where it doesn't work out 
quite so tidily, but still has a more favorable effect.  As C, D and E finally 
get stable code from their vendors that they are willing to deploy that happens 
to support the draft, the behavior of the propogation of Y will not change 
dramatically.

On a side note, the draft reads:

    Assuming that there are no policy boundaries involved, BGP will
    propagate both of these prefixes A and X throughout the entire AS-
    level topology.

Should this be prefixes Y and X?

---

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:58:06 -0800

> IMHO, it is neither predictable nor stable

Well, the facts of the matter are simple: between a software change,
it will be 100% predictable as to whether AS_HOPCOUNT is supported
as long as you know the software version number.  Of course, for those
outside of the AS, that is unlikely to be disclosed and is thus
wholly unknown.

Note that this is the condition that all incremental deployments go  
through.

> from day to day, what versions of software will be running on their

Sorry, but you can never get that level of determinism via incremental
deployment.

> argue that it's compliant.

And so?  If there is a commercial motivation to be non-compliant,  
then there
WILL be non-compliant implementations.  And please let me assure you
that there will be implementations that want to modify AS_HOPCOUNT in
flight.  There are a number of various policy reasons for doing so.  The
most obvious is a form of routing scoping, whereby a third party would
attach AS_HOPCOUNT to a prefix that it did not originate.

Tony

---

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:47:07 -0800

> Thus inserting an AS_HOPCOUNT may override the NO_EXPORT function

Those observations about the draft are correct.  However, 'dubious'  
seems like
a value judgement or an emotional report, not a well supported technical
evaluation.  Having one attribute modify the semantics of another is not
uncommon.  Yes, it can add to complexity and it is certainly less  
than ideal,
but we are evolving a protocol, not starting with a clean slate.

Tony

---

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:40:45 -0800

> Site A advertises Y to its upstreams with hopcount=2, but C, D and  
> E do not support the draft.   When Y reaches H and F, hopcount will  
> still be 2, as the intervening systems did not decrement it.  H and  
> F will decrement hopcount, and advertise it to its peers and  
> customers, who would then decrement it and advertise it, where it  
> would stop.  The total hopcount would actually be 5.
>
> If we modify the behavior in 5.b such that instead of decrementing  
> the hopcount, the speaker simply compares the path length to the  
> hopcount and makes a decision on whether to accept or advertise,  
> then the following would happen:
>
> Site A advertises Y to its upstreams with hopcount=3 (to account  
> for its own AS), but C, D and E do not support the draft.  When Y  
> reaches H and F, they will compare (path-len=3) >= (hopcount=3) and  
> not accept the route. Coincidently this is the behavior Site A was  
> hoping for, and I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to  
> imagine a scenario where it doesn't work out quite so tidily, but  
> still has a more favorable effect.  As C, D and E finally get  
> stable code from their vendors that they are willing to deploy that  
> happens to support the draft, the behavior of the propogation of Y  
> will not change dramatically.

Seems like a fine alternate semantics to me.  What do other folks  
think?  I think that the evaluation
gets a little bit more complicated, due to private AS numbers and  
confederations, but this seems like something that can be addressed.

> Should this be prefixes Y and X?

Correct, thanks.  My typo.

Tony

---

From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 07:52:13 +0000 (GMT)

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Tony Li wrote:

> think?  I think that the evaluation gets a little bit more 
> complicated, due to private AS numbers and confederations, but this 
> seems like something that can be addressed.

It does seem a bit complicated.

How about instead we just specify that if AS_HOPCOUNT is received 
with partial set, that the receiving speaker shall then treat the 
attribute as if it had a hopcount value of 0?

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
Fortune:
Although it's never fun getting one year older, it sure beats the alternative!

---

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:11:27 -0800

> attribute as if it had a hopcount value of 0?

That would seem to eliminate any choice in having AS_HOPCOUNT  
interpreted
conservatively or liberally (i.e., with NO_EXPORT or not).

Tony

---

From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:02:45 +0000 (GMT)

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Tony Li wrote:

> That would seem to eliminate any choice in having AS_HOPCOUNT interpreted

Six of one, half dozen of the other I guess.

Given the point of the attribute is to provide better ways to limit 
scope, it might be more beneficial for transition to err on side of 
limiting scope, see below.

The problem is that /not/ treating partial as == infinite hops would 
cause one to disregard no-export incorrectly. E.g. imagine receiving 
an announcement with both AS_HOPCOUNT (partial) and no-export. The 
right thing to do here is to honour no-export (because the receiving 
speaker can't know how many hops were 'missed' in the count, other 
than with the AS_PATH counting hacks mentioned by Andrew).

Such a situation could arise where 'action' communities are used, 
e.g.:

 	X-Y-Z

Z announces route with AS_HOPCOUNT > 1 and with community including 
Y:<please set no export when advertising to peers>.

Ys speakers are not AS_HOPCOUNT capable.

Y sets no-export when passing on the announcement to X, because Z 
requested Y to do so.

Z, as the draft stands today, will ignore the no-export because of 
the presence of AS_HOPCOUNT (complete or not), decrement the 
AS_HOPCOUNT, which will then be >= 1 and hence announce it to other 
peers, when it shouldn't.

You could argue that Z shouldn't do the above, they should know which 
of the two mechanisms (action communities versus AS_HOPCOUNT) should 
be used for Y and pick one. But that's not always possible, 
particularly during transitions.

Transition would be easier if the draft erred on side of restricting 
scope. E.g. think case where Y takes time to transition all its 
speakers over to AS_HOPCOUNT capable software. If receiving speakers 
treat partial as == 0 and ignore, then Z /can/ make use of both the 
legacy 'action community' offered by Y and of AS_HOPCOUNT. E.g:

 	X-Y:1
 	    \
 	     Y:3-Z
 	    /
 	A-Y:2

Imagine all but Y:1 (Y:{1,2,3} are 3 speakers of AS Y) are 
AS_HOPCOUNT capable. Then /both/ the action communities and 
AS_HOPCOUNT can work through a transition period, where Y is 
upgrading its routers, one by one.

X will receive partial AS_HOPCOUNT from Y:1 and hence ignore 
AS_HOPCOUNT and honour no-export instead, as desired.

A will receive complete and decremented AS_HOPCOUNT from Y:2 and 
hence honour that, ignoring the no-export, as desired.

I.e. if the point of AS_HOPCOUNT is to reduce scope of routes, then 
it seems more beneficial to err on the side of reducing scope. ;) 
(Just about everyone announcing AS_HOPCOUNT routes will also be 
announcing a less-specific global scope route anyway, right? And the 
anycasters definitely would prefer reduced, not greater scope. They 
only have no-export and maybe ASN:action communities available to 
them today in their toolbox today anyway, as per above.)

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
Fortune:
Lots of folks confuse bad management with destiny.
 		-- Frank Hubbard

---

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:20:31 -0800

> limiting scope, see below.

I'm not yet convinced of the above.  Consider that most longer  
prefixes are now being
distributed globally.  Folks playing with the new attribute are  
likely to want to experiment with
it by slowly contracting scope.  An abrupt change in distribution is  
likely to result in some
unanticipated results, which would delay, not encourage deployment.   
Thus, it seems like
many providers might want a more liberal interpretation of the  
semantics.  Providing the
option of a liberal or strict scoping would seem to give the provider  
an increased level
of control and thus ease deployment.

Tony

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:20:31 -0800
To: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
Cc: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

> limiting scope, see below.

I'm not yet convinced of the above.  Consider that most longer  
prefixes are now being
distributed globally.  Folks playing with the new attribute are  
likely to want to experiment with
it by slowly contracting scope.  An abrupt change in distribution is  
likely to result in some
unanticipated results, which would delay, not encourage deployment.   
Thus, it seems like
many providers might want a more liberal interpretation of the  
semantics.  Providing the
option of a liberal or strict scoping would seem to give the provider  
an increased level
of control and thus ease deployment.

Tony

Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:02:45 +0000 (GMT)
From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
To: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Mail-Copies-To: [email-masked]
Cc: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

 	X-Y-Z

 	X-Y:1
 	    \
 	     Y:3-Z
 	    /
 	A-Y:2

regards,

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:11:27 -0800
To: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
Cc: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Tony

Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 07:52:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
To: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Mail-Copies-To: [email-masked]
Cc: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

regards,

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:40:45 -0800
To: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Tony

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:47:07 -0800
To: John Leslie <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Tony

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:58:06 -0800
To: John Leslie <[email-masked]>
Cc: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Tony

Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:01:03 -0500
From: John Leslie <[email-masked]>
To: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Cc: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:08:55 -0500
From: John Leslie <[email-masked]>
To: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:26:59 -0500
From: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Sender: [email-masked]

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:17:24 -0800
To: John Leslie <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

John,

Regards,
Tony

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:52:07 -0800
To: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

On Dec 29, 2005, at 8:30 PM, Andrew Lee wrote:
>> effects

>> the

Regards,
Tony

Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:30:12 -0500
From: Andrew Lee <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Sender: [email-masked]

Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:13:57 -0500
From: John Leslie <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt
Sender: [email-masked]

To: [email-masked]
From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:50:01 -0500
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-as-hopcount-00.txt 
Sender: [email-masked]

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To: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 06:44:39 -0800
From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-avoid-transition-04.txt to Proposed Standard
Sender: [email-masked]

Folks,

This is to start the IDR WG Last Call on advancing
draft-ietf-idr-avoid-transition-04.txt to a Proposed Standard.

The implementation report is draft-chen-bgp-avoid-ebgp-transition-survey-00.txt.

The Last Call ends Jan 16, 2006.

Yakov.

To: [email-masked]
From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:50:01 -0500
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-avoid-transition-04.txt 
Sender: [email-masked]

--NextPart

	Title		: Avoid BGP Best Path Transitions from One 
                          External to Another
	Author(s)	: E. Chen, S. Sangli
	Filename	: draft-ietf-idr-avoid-transition-04.txt
	Pages		: 7
	Date		: 2005-12-27
	
In this document we propose a revision to the BGP route selection
   rules that would avoid unnecessary best path transitions between
   external paths under certain conditions. The proposed revision would
   help the overall network stability, and more importantly, would
   eliminate certain BGP route oscillations in which more than one
   external paths from one BGP speaker contribute to the churn.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-avoid-transition-04.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-idr-avoid-transition-04.txt".

Send a message to:
	[email-masked].
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	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-avoid-transition-04.txt".

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Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 19:59:36 -0800
From: "Redgrave P. Welt" <[email-masked]>
To: Idr <[email-masked]>
Subject: If you are interested in brands like Microsoft, Macromedia, Adobe, Corel etc.

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<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Microsoft Office|R|:</td></tr>
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To: [email-masked]
From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:50:02 -0500
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-dynamic-cap-08.txt 
Sender: [email-masked]

--NextPart

	Title		: Dynamic Capability for BGP-4
	Author(s)	: E. Chen, S. Sangli
	Filename	: draft-ietf-idr-dynamic-cap-08.txt
	Pages		: 8
	Date		: 2005-12-21
	
This document defines a new BGP capability termed "Dynamic
   Capability", which would allow the dynamic update of capabilities
   over an established BGP session. This capability would facilitate
   non-disruptive capability changes by BGP speakers.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-dynamic-cap-08.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-idr-dynamic-cap-08.txt".

Send a message to:
	[email-masked].
In the body type:
	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-dynamic-cap-08.txt".

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To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] 4 octet AS extended communities as an IDR WG document 
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 06:34:52 -0800
From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Robert,

> Hi Yakov,
> 
> Just out of curiosity ... what do you call a "lack of sufficient 
> interest" ? I counted about 8 positive feedbacks and 0 negative. I think 
> there is no more 20 folks who constructively participate in IDR WG so 
> that makes 40% of support. More then sufficient IMHO.

Compare this with the AS hopcount document. For that document we
got 15 folks supporting it (excluding authors).
  
> Btw since we are at it ... even more folks supported AS hopcount. Is 
> this also going to remain an individual contribution ?

No, it is accepted as an IDR WG document - see Tony's reply. 

Yakov.

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] 4 octet AS extended communities as an IDR WG document
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:25:53 -0800
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked], Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

> Btw since we are at it ... even more folks supported AS hopcount.  
> Is this also going to remain an individual contribution ?

AS hopcount was accepted and is on my plate to submit a revised WG  
draft.

Tony

Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:06:10 -0800
From: Robert Raszuk <[email-masked]>
Organization: Signature: http://www.employees.org/~raszuk/sig/
To: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] 4 octet AS extended communities as an IDR WG document
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Hi Yakov,

Just out of curiosity ... what do you call a "lack of sufficient 
interest" ? I counted about 8 positive feedbacks and 0 negative. I think 
there is no more 20 folks who constructively participate in IDR WG so 
that makes 40% of support. More then sufficient IMHO.

Btw since we are at it ... even more folks supported AS hopcount. Is 
this also going to remain an individual contribution ?

Cheers,
R.

PS. IMHO if criteria like those continue we will be force to define some 
new way (web based voting) on the WG drafts acceptance where majority of 
votes wins even if majority means 2 for and 1 against vote.

> Folks,
> 
> Due to the lack of sufficient interest
> draft-rekhter-as4octet-ext-community-00.txt is not going to
> be accepted at the *present* time as an IDR WG document. For
> the time being the authors agreed to maintain this document
> as an individual contribution.
> 
> Yakov.
> 

To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] 4 octet AS extended communities as an IDR WG document 
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 07:36:33 -0800
From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Folks,

Due to the lack of sufficient interest
draft-rekhter-as4octet-ext-community-00.txt is not going to
be accepted at the *present* time as an IDR WG document. For
the time being the authors agreed to maintain this document
as an individual contribution.

Yakov.

Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:53:34 -0800
From: "Nonvoting F. Charms" <[email-masked]>
To: Idr <[email-masked]>
Subject: Three steps to the software you need for the price you want.

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------------E6B04400D76933B
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<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
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------------E6B04400D76933B--

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 06:22:09 +0800
From: "Hongyan Ma" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [Idr] About the bgp aggregate route-map command of Cisco.
Sender: [email-masked]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--===============0966333142==
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C60033.A8408AA0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C60033.A8408AA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="gb2312"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Hi experts,
>=20
> =
/************************************************************************=
********************************/
> router bgp 300=20
>   neighbor 2.2.2.2 remote-as 100=20
>   neighbor 3.3.3.3 remote-as 200=20
>   neighbor 4.4.4.4 remote-as 400=20
>   aggregate-address 160.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 as-set attribute-map Map=20
>=20
> !--- Use of the attribute-map argument allows
> !--- you to change the community of the aggregate.
> =20
>  !=20
>  route-map Map permit 10=20
>   set community none=20
>=20
> =
/************************************************************************=
****/
>=20
> I want to know if the command line of "aggregate-address 160.0.0.0 =
255.0.0.0 as-set attribute-map Map" only changes community of the =
aggregate route, and does not affect the community of sub route like =
160.1.0.0/16.
>=20
>=20
> Thanks a lot.
> a new guy for bgp
>=20
>=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dgb2312">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
6.5.7233.28">
<TITLE>About the bgp aggregate route-map command of Cisco.</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi experts,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">/*********************************************************=
***********************************************/</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Simsun">router bgp 300<BR>
&nbsp; neighbor 2.2.2.2 remote-as 100<BR>
&nbsp; neighbor 3.3.3.3 remote-as 200<BR>
&nbsp; neighbor 4.4.4.4 remote-as 400<BR>
&nbsp; aggregate-address 160.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 as-set attribute-map =
Map<BR>
<I><BR>
</I></FONT><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Simsun">!--- Use =
of the<B> attribute-map</B> argument allows<BR>
!--- you to change the community of the aggregate.</FONT><BR>
</I><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Simsun"><BR>
&nbsp;!<BR>
&nbsp;route-map Map permit 10<BR>
&nbsp; set community none<BR>
</FONT><I><BR>
</I><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Simsun">/********************************************************=
********************/</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Simsun">I want to know if the command line of =
&quot;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Simsun">aggregate-address 160.0.0.0 =
255.0.0.0 as-set attribute-map Map</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Simsun">&quot; only changes community of the aggregate route, =
and does not affect the community of sub route like =
160.1.0.0/16.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Simsun">Thanks a =
lot.</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Simsun">a new guy for =
bgp</FONT></SPAN>
</P>
<BR>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:25:26 -0800
From: "Shakers E. Helpful" <[email-masked]>
To: Idr <[email-masked]>
Subject: Adobe Software and more. The best price.

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<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Other Microsoft Software:</td></tr>
<tr><td>MS Picture It Premium 9</td><td>$59.95</tr></td><tr><td>MS Exchange 2003 Enterprise Server</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>MS Visual Studio .NET Architect Edition (8CD)</td><td>$139.95</tr></td><tr><td>MS Project 2003 Pro</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>MS Money 2004</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>MS SQL Server 2k Enterprise Edition</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>MS Works 7</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>MS Streets and Trips 2004 North America (2 CD)</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>MS Plus! XP</td><td>$59.95</tr></td><tr><td>MS Encarta Encyclopedia Delux 2004 (3 CD Edition)</td><td>$89.95</tr></td>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Adobe Software for PC:</td></tr>
<tr><td>Adobe Creative Suite Standard (3 CD) </td><td>$129.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Acrobat 6 Professional </td><td>$79.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Illustrator 10 </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Photoshop CS with ImageReady CS </td><td>$99.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Photoshop 7 </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe PageMaker 7 (2 CD Edition) </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Premiere 7 </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe InDesign CS PageMaker Edition (2 CD Edition) </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Creative Suite Premium (5 CD) </td><td>$149.95</td></tr>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Adobe Software for Mac:</td></tr>
<tr><td>Adobe Illustrator CS CE (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe After Effects 6 (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe InDesign CS (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe LiveMotion 2 (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Premiere 6.5 (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$89.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Actobat 6 Professional (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$79.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Photoshop CS (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$99.95</td></tr>
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<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Macromedia Software for Mac:</td></tr>
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<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Corel Software:</td></tr>
<tr><td> Photo Painter 8</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td> WordPerfect Office </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Draw Graphics Suite 11</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td> Draw Graphics Suite 11 (Mac)</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td> Photo Painter 8 (Mac)</td><td>$59.95</td></tr>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>

</table>
<table align=center>
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</td></tr>
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------------B9F340A44C2A361--

Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 03:13:00 -0800
From: "Sandblaster U. Arrivals" <[email-masked]>
To: Idr <[email-masked]>
Subject: YAHOO software news

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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 MS Office 2000 Premium Edition (2 CD Edition) - $59.95 
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<html>
<body>

<table align=center>
<tr><td align=center>
<strong align=center><a href="http://upowlt.bcz1g6h5hvzkkbb8uet6gtbb.graternh.com">
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</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center><font size=4>Please check our prices.</td></tr>
</table>
<table align=center border=0>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Special Offers:</td></tr>
<tr><td>Bundle Special:Windows XP Pro With SP2 Full Version + Office 2003 Pro (1 CD)</td><td>$99.95</td></tr><tr><td>Bundle Special:Dreamwaver MX 2004 + Flash MX 2004</td><td>$109.95</td></tr><tr><td>Bundle Special:Microsoft Windows XP Pro + Microsoft Office XP Pro</td><td>$89.95</td></tr><tr><td>Bundle Special:Photoshop  + Premiere  + Illustrator </td><td>$129.95</td></tr>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Microsoft Windows|R| </td></tr>
<tr><td>Win XP Pro With SP2 Full Version</td><td>$79.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win Millenium </td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win 98 SE </td><td>$49.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win XP Pro</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win NT 4.0 Server </td><td>$49.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win 2000 Pro</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win 2000 Advanced Server </td><td>$69.95</td></tr>
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<tr><td>Office XP Pro</td><td>$79.95</td></tr><tr><td>Office 2003 Pro (1 CD)</td><td>$89.95</td></tr><tr><td>Office 2000 Premium Edition (2 CD Edition)</td><td>$59.95</td></tr>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Other Microsoft Software:</td></tr>
<tr><td>Microsoft Exchange 2003 Enterprise Server</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft Streets and Trips 2004 North America (2 CD)</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft Works 7</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft Visual Studio .NET Architect Edition (8CD)</td><td>$139.95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft Money 2004</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft Picture It Premium 9</td><td>$59.95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft SQL Server 2000 Enterprise Edition</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia Delux 2004 (3 CD)</td><td>$89.95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft Plus! XP</td><td>$59.95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft Project 2003 Pro</td><td>$69.95</tr></td>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Adobe Software for PC:</td></tr>
<tr><td> InDesign CS PageMaker Edition (2 CD) </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Creative Suite Standard (3 CD) </td><td>$129.95</td></tr><tr><td> Photoshop 7 </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Photoshop CS with ImageReady CS </td><td>$99.95</td></tr><tr><td> Premiere 7 </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> PageMaker 7 (2 CD) </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Creative Suite Premium (5 CD) </td><td>$149.95</td></tr>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Adobe Software for Mac:</td></tr>
<tr><td> Premiere 6.5 (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$89.95</td></tr><tr><td> InDesign CS (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Actobat 6 Professional (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$79.95</td></tr><tr><td> After Effects 6 (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Photoshop CS (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$99.95</td></tr>
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<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Macromedia Software for PC:</td></tr>
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<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Corel Software:</td></tr>
<tr><td> Photo Painter 8.0</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td> Draw Graphics Suite 11</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td> Draw Graphics Suite 11 (Mac)</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td> Photo Painter 8.0 (Mac)</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td> WordPerfect Office </td><td>$69.95</td></tr>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>

</table>
<table align=center>
<tr><td align=center>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] AS hopcount draft (redux)
From: Albert Tian <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 23:43:25 -0800
Cc: [email-masked], Tony Li <[email-masked]>, Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>, Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]

Hi Tony/Robert,

Yes I see this can be a simple and useful tool, and I support it to
become a WG draft.

Wondering would it be helpful if we allow the hopcount to be decremented
by a configurable "peering-distance" rather than a fixed number "one"
for ebgp. The default peering-distance can be zero for ibgp, one for
ebgp.

On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 03:25, Robert Raszuk wrote: 
> Pekka,
> 
> > While I can see it seems simple, I don't see how it would be very 
> > useful.  As the mesh of interconnections gets more and more dense, I 
> > don't believe it's really a sufficient mechanism to express (the 
> > intended) policy.
> 
> Your doubts that the idea may not address few possible interconnect 
> topologies and may not be the universal solution for limiting update 
> propagation for generations to come is IMHO not a sufficient argument 
> not to progress with the draft and make it a WG doc to address all other 
> much more controled AS meshes.
> 
> Imagine there is a network operator who owns number of ASes and wants to 
> limit some information distribution in one of BGP SAFIs just to his 
> domain. The usual topology is one AS in the core surranded by reginal 
> ASes. If he configured AS_HOPCOUNT to 3 and do not peer (by design) from 
> the core AS his problem is easily solved.

In this example, he can even peer from the core AS, if that peer is
configured with a peering-distance of 3. 

Thanks,

Albert

> Cheers,
> R.
> 
> > That is, is there any real examples of applicability of AS hopcount with 
> > value >= 3 ?  I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it and the 
> > policy goal behind such use.
> 
> 

Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:51:20 -0500
From: Ernestine Morin <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: Ernestine Morin <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: thanks...

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this is yours good way.=20
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<html><head><meta content=3D"text/html;charset=3DISO-8859-1" http-equiv=3D=
"Content-Type"></head>
<body bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000">
<a href=3D"http://afjbgmdikl=2Ewapearth=2Einfo/?cehdiklxoyafjzcvbgm"><im=
g alt=3D"" src=3D"cid:1749BF90=2EEF3C408F">this is yours good way</a><br=
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Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 07:59:42 -0800
From: "Numeracy K. Beiderbecke" <[email-masked]>
To: Idr <[email-masked]>
Subject: Microsoft Software and more. The best price.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------------6C061D94D33ACA5
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 Windows 2000 Professional - $59.95 
 Windows 2000 Advanced Server - $69.95 
 Windows 2000 Professional - $50 
 Microsoft Office 2000 PE (2 CD Edition) - $59.95 
 Windows Millenium - $59.95 
 MS FileMaker 7.0 Pro - $69.95 
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<html>
<body>

<table align=center>
<tr><td align=center>
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<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Microsoft|R| Windows|R| </td></tr>
<tr><td>Win 98 SE </td><td>$49.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win 2k Adv. Server </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win NT 4.0 Server </td><td>$49.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win XP Pro With SP2 Full Version</td><td>$79.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win XP Pro</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win 98</td><td>$49.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win 95</td><td>$49.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win Millenium </td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td>Win 2k Pro</td><td>$59.95</td></tr>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Microsoft Office|R|:</td></tr>
<tr><td>Office XP Pro</td><td>$79.95</td></tr><tr><td>FileMaker 7.0 Pro</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Office 2003 Pro (1 CD Edition)</td><td>$89.95</td></tr><tr><td>Office 2k Premium Edition (2 CD)</td><td>$59.95</td></tr>
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<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Other Microsoft|c| Software:</td></tr>
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<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Adobe Software for PC:</td></tr>
<tr><td>Adobe PageMaker 7 (2 CD Edition) </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Creative Suite Standard (3 CD Edition) </td><td>$129.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe InDesign CS PageMaker Edition (2 CD Edition) </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Premiere 7 </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Creative Suite Premium (5 CD) </td><td>$149.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Acrobat 6 Pro </td><td>$79.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Photoshop CS with ImageReady CS </td><td>$99.95</td></tr><tr><td>Adobe Photoshop 7 </td><td>$69.95</td></tr>
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<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Adobe Software for Mac:</td></tr>
<tr><td> Photoshop CS (Mac)</td><td>$99.95</td></tr><tr><td> Actobat 6.0 Professional (Mac)</td><td>$79.95</td></tr><tr><td> Illustrator CS CE (Mac)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> InDesign CS (Mac)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> After Effects 6.0 (Mac)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Premiere 6.5 (Mac)</td><td>$89.95</td></tr><tr><td> LiveMotion 2 (Mac)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Macromedia Software for PC:</td></tr>
<tr><td>Macromedia Dreamwaver MX 2004</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>Macromedia Fireworks MX 2004</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>Macromedia Flash MX 2004</td><td>$69.95</tr></td><tr><td>Macromedia Freehand MX 11</td><td>$69.95</tr></td>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Macromedia Software for Mac:</td></tr>
<tr><td> Director MX 2004 (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Fireworks MX 2004 (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Dreamweaver MX 2004 (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Studio MX 2004 with Director MX 2004 (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$139.95</td></tr><tr><td> FreeHand MX (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td> Flash MX 2004 (Apple Macintosh)</td><td>$69.95</td></tr>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>
<tr><td align=center colspan=2>Corel Software:</td></tr>
<tr><td>Corel Draw Graphics Suite 11.0</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td>Corel Draw Graphics Suite 11.0 (Mac)</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td>Corel Photo Painter 8.0</td><td>$59.95</td></tr><tr><td>Corel WordPerfect Office </td><td>$69.95</td></tr><tr><td>Corel Photo Painter 8.0 (Mac)</td><td>$59.95</td></tr>
<tr><td>&nbsp;</td></tr>

</table>
<table align=center>
<tr><td align=center>
<a href="http://yiwzj.2e8a8f8v8i7tbkkz3n2fp222.resalelk.com"><h3><font size=3 color=#212346>Get to site</font></h3></a>

</td></tr>
</table>
</body>
</html>

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Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Subject: RE: [Idr] AS hopcount draft
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:05:23 -0700
From: "Susan Hares" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>, "Tony Li" <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Thanks for the note.

sue

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Eric W Gray
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:02 AM
To: Tony Li
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] AS hopcount draft

Yes, this should be a WG draft.

Tony Li wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> On the AS hopcount draft, we're in the middle of polling interest on  
> having this
> draft as a WG item.  This expires on Monday.  If you have an opinion,

> please voice
> it now to the list.
>
> Here's my summary of where we are, with both people and their  
> affiliations.  If
> any of these need correction, please unicast to me.
>
> Authors:
> Myself (SP)
> Rex Fernando (Vendor emeritus)
> Joe Abley (SP)
>
> For:
> Curtis Villamizar (Vendor?)
> Paul Jakma (SP?)
> Elmar Bins (SP?)
> Robert Raszuk (Vendor)
> Enke Chen (Vendor)
> Kanchei Loa (SP/End user)
> Geoff Huston (SP)
> Danny McPherson (Vendor)
>
> Against:
> Pekka Savola (Vendor)
>
>
> Tony
>
>

Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:01:30 -0500
From: Eric W Gray <[email-masked]>
To: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] AS hopcount draft
Cc: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Yes, this should be a WG draft.

Tony Li wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> On the AS hopcount draft, we're in the middle of polling interest on  
> having this
> draft as a WG item.  This expires on Monday.  If you have an opinion,  
> please voice
> it now to the list.
>
> Here's my summary of where we are, with both people and their  
> affiliations.  If
> any of these need correction, please unicast to me.
>
> Authors:
> Myself (SP)
> Rex Fernando (Vendor emeritus)
> Joe Abley (SP)
>
> For:
> Curtis Villamizar (Vendor?)
> Paul Jakma (SP?)
> Elmar Bins (SP?)
> Robert Raszuk (Vendor)
> Enke Chen (Vendor)
> Kanchei Loa (SP/End user)
> Geoff Huston (SP)
> Danny McPherson (Vendor)
>
> Against:
> Pekka Savola (Vendor)
>
>
> Tony
>
>

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] AS hopcount draft
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:36:31 -0800
To: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

> On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Tony Li wrote:
>> Against:
>> Pekka Savola (Vendor)
>
> For the record, I represent a service provider :)

Corrected, thanks.

Tony

Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:43:31 +0200 (EET)
From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
To: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Idr] AS hopcount draft
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Tony Li wrote:
> Against:
> Pekka Savola (Vendor)

For the record, I represent a service provider :)

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings