Subject: Re: URL to "The Squeeze Is On At IETF"

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 97 23:55:00 -0500

http://www.data.com/tutorials/standards.html

Regards
David Newman
Data Communications magazine

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: URL to "The Squeeze Is On At IETF"
Author:  <[email-masked]> at ccnode 
Date:    12/26/97 11:10 AM

You may have missed this, I did.  Here is an article from Internet 
Week on the IETF in November:

        http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?INW19971103S0106

Are others aware of similar articles that present or explain the 
inner workings of the IETF in a more journalistic way?

Thanks,
Steven Clift

Here is a clip:

                 November 03, 1997, Issue: 688
                 Section: Trends

                 The Squeeze Is On At IETF

                 Kelly Jackson Higgins

                 The strain on the Internet Engineering Task Force was 
                 showing. It was the summer of '96 and representatives 
                 from Lotus, Microsoft and Netscape Communications were 
                 all sitting down to powwow for the first time about 
                 creating an IETF standard for electronic calendaring. 
                 The public posturing and jockeying that led up to the 
                 meeting were just one more marketing mini-drama 
                 sullying the IETF's reputation as an engineering 
                 organization.

                 You could cut the tension in the room with a knife: 
                 Months of sweat and code were at stake, and corporate 
                 users were pushing the industry titans to open up their 
                 proprietary calendaring packages so they could schedule 
                 meetings electronically with people outside the 
                 company. That long, hot meeting last summer broke the 
                 ice for what soon will become the IETF iCal protocols, 
                 which will let a Netscape Communicator user set up a 
                 meeting with a colleague who runs Microsoft Outlook or 
                 Lotus Organizer.

                 Sounds simple, but the iCal specs took nearly two 
                 years to get off the ground; the bickering finally 
                 stopped so the IETF techies could roll up their 
                 sleeves and get to work. And iCal is only one battle 
                 in a series of standards wars the IETF (www.ietf.org) 
                 has waged since the epic commercialization of the 
                 Internet.

                 The group, which was formed by engineers in the 1980s 
                 to build protocols for the Internet, is struggling to 
                 maintain its identity as an engineering group and not 
                 end up as an extension of the marketing department at 
                 Cisco, Microsoft or Netscape.

                 Traditional IETFers from MIT and other universities 
                 are feeling the squeeze and pushing back to keep the 
                 group's roots intact from a new generation of 
                 participants that has a lot more at stake-namely 
                 market share.

                 IETFers admit it can be hard to keep their paychecks 
                 from influencing their engineering instincts.

end of clip
-------------------------------------------------------
     Steven L. Clift, Director, Democracies Online 
     3454 Fremont Ave S, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA   
     Tel: 612-824-3747  E: [email-masked]

  http://www.e-democracy.org/do/ - Democracies Online 
  http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift/ -  Home Page
-------------------------------------------------------

---

From: Simon Spero <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 07:18:35 -0500 (EST)

The solution to this problem is easy. All attendees from .edu or .ac.* get
to carry cattle prods. Rough consensus, charged batteries.

Simon 
----
Now available - The Freddy Hayek Kayak            | "Pass me another elf
Paddle Your Own Canoe! Be Rowed To Surfdom!       | Sergeant- this one's
>From The Taco Institute for Dyslexic Libertarians | split"
  Moments ago I had everything. Now, there's a cow in my nose - La Salla

---

From: "Steven Clift" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:35:09 +0000

> From:          [email-masked]
> Date:          Sun, 28 Dec 97 23:55:00 -0500
> To:            <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
> Subject:       Re: URL to "The Squeeze Is On At IETF"

> Data Communications magazine

Thanks David.  It was one of the best articles I have seen layout the 
standards world.  I noted with interest the lack of end user 
involvement.  I assume that major purchasers of IT goods have some 
influence from a market perspective.  I was wondering if anyone out 
there knows of any useful/effective Internet end-user efforts from 
a standards input perspective?  I assume the ISPs and web 
browser/server developers get lots of reaction from users that 
trickles up, but is there any "neutral" effort that has attempted to 
survey the general needs of Internet users so the standards 
communities have some optional fodder to influence what is on their 
agenda.

Also, what might the IETF relationship be to the OpenCable effort? 
Links from:  http://www.cablenet.org/  Since digital cable boxes 
seem to be evolving up toward the Network Computer concept, this 
seems to be a golden opportunity to promote a non-proprietary 
operating/networking system for the "digital thingy"?  Maybe I am 
wrong, but it seems to me the real battle over end-user oriented 
Internet items (HTML standards, streamed multimedia, etc.) are really 
about who will control what we understand today as "television?"  And 
since television controls the world, the stakes are pretty high. :-)

Your article seemed to indicate a significant proportional drop in 
university/research standards involvement.  So one last question, are 
there efforts to engage more university involvement in the IETF (and 
other standards bodies for that matter) as a proportion of active 
members?

Sincerely,

Steven Clift

---

From: Einar Stefferud <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:20:56 -0800

It seems to me that it is going to be futile for the IETF to attempt
to somehow glean from the end useers of the Internet, what they really
need in any kind of detailed form.

In my view, the key is in a meta view, from which vantage point it
becomes obvious that the real values of all these tools we are
developing, and which our dueling vendors are offering, is to help all
those users of Internet connected (regardless of connection mode) to
work together by means of "Exchanging Application Information
Objects!"

In short, the IETF supports the basic concept that 

	"We Work Together Better With Others, Than Anyone" 

which should be the guide to both the building of standards and the
building of new products.

I believe it is a fact that the Internet has done more to facilitate
this business of people working together better by always paying great
attention to "Interoperability" and also to the ability to
meaningfully exchange information objects of all kinds, hopefully
including "Application Information Objects".

It is unfortunate that our dueling vendors seem to have gotten the
idea that the way forward is best achieved by damaging the ability of
their products to help people work together better than anyone.

Now, how do we get the vendors to stop producing products that harm
rather than help their customers to work together better?  I submit
that it is because their customers have not yet figured out that they
are the ones who gain from being able to work together better with
themselves (internally) and with their (external) customers,
suppliers, and others.

So, although it might sound like I am blaming the vendors, it is
really their customers who are to blame!  Just because they appear to
love to buy products that fail to help them work together better.

What is a vendor to do when the customers demand the wrong stuff?
Of course, they have to sell it to them!!!  Else someone else will!

So, the crux of the matter is that the customers must learn that it is
their ability to Interwork better with themselves, their customers,
their suppliers, and even with their competitors that gives them
greater competitive positions.

If isolation was the goal, they can easily achieve that, even with
tools that do interwork, just by deciding not to Interwork.  They can
lock their Presidents and Boards of Directors in Quiet Rooms, where
they have all the time in the world to THINK without distraction!
However, working together requires tools that support meaningful
interchange.

So, it is really clear that isolation does not generally convey
competitive advantage. So, now that this issue is clear, how do we
convince the customers of this bit of truth?

Note that I said "Customers" and not "Users"!

A customer is not a user!!!  Customers make value judgements based on
perceived values, while a user just uses what is given to use, and
always accepts more if it is offered.  So, users are infinite sinks
for resources, while customers have budget limits and must make value
judgements among alternative purchases.

Another way to express this is to note that Users run up the bill by
ussing what they are given, while Customers must decide all that use
was worth the cost and then pay the Invoice.

So, we need to somehow educate the Customers of Internet based tools
to understand the value of making their Users able to work together
with others, better than anyone, so those Customers will naturally buy
what is best for their enterprises.

The users will never be in a position to do anything more than just
demand more, until they are given budget authority which will lead
them to make value judgements.

I strongly believe that the IETF is not in any position to convert
users into customers, or to mount a campaign to educate the customers.

On the other hand, I do note that market pressures have finally given
most vendors (and soon all vendors) the message that MIME (with its
warts and all) is a very useful tool for facilitation of free and
regular Exchange of Application Information Objects, and MIME is a
purely IETF product, following some seminal abstract modeling work
done by IFIP WG 6.5 back in 1990.  Not perfect, but extremely useful!

Cheers...\Stef

>From your message Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:35:09 +0000:
}
}> From:          [email-masked]
}> Date:          Sun, 28 Dec 97 23:55:00 -0500
}> To:            <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
}> Subject:       Re: URL to "The Squeeze Is On At IETF"
}
}> 
}> 
}> http://www.data.com/tutorials/standards.html
}> 
}> Regards
}> David Newman
}> Data Communications magazine
}> 
}
}
}Thanks David.  It was one of the best articles I have seen layout the 
}standards world.  I noted with interest the lack of end user 
}involvement.  I assume that major purchasers of IT goods have some 
}influence from a market perspective.  I was wondering if anyone out 
}there knows of any useful/effective Internet end-user efforts from 
}a standards input perspective?  I assume the ISPs and web 
}browser/server developers get lots of reaction from users that 
}trickles up, but is there any "neutral" effort that has attempted to 
}survey the general needs of Internet users so the standards 
}communities have some optional fodder to influence what is on their 
}agenda.
}
}Also, what might the IETF relationship be to the OpenCable effort? 
}Links from:  http://www.cablenet.org/  Since digital cable boxes 
}seem to be evolving up toward the Network Computer concept, this 
}seems to be a golden opportunity to promote a non-proprietary 
}operating/networking system for the "digital thingy"?  Maybe I am 
}wrong, but it seems to me the real battle over end-user oriented 
}Internet items (HTML standards, streamed multimedia, etc.) are really 
}about who will control what we understand today as "television?"  And 
}since television controls the world, the stakes are pretty high. :-)
}
}Your article seemed to indicate a significant proportional drop in 
}university/research standards involvement.  So one last question, are 
}there efforts to engage more university involvement in the IETF (and 
}other standards bodies for that matter) as a proportion of active 
}members?
}
}Sincerely,
}
}Steven Clift
}
}
}-------------------------------------------------------
}     Steven L. Clift, Director, Democracies Online
}     3454 Fremont Ave S, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA   
}     Tel: 612-824-3747  E: [email-masked]
}
}  http://www.e-democracy.org/do/ - Democracies Online
}  http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift/ -  Home Page
}-------------------------------------------------------
}