Subject: RE: NATs *ARE* evil!

From: Dave Robinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:45:01 -0500

How does the idea of NAT destroy the global Internet address space?  

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Moore [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 4:05 AM
To: M Dev
Cc: Sean Doran; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: NATs *ARE* evil! 

the problems with NAT are not generally due to implementation.
they are inherent in the very idea of NAT, which destroys the
global Internet address space.

Keith

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From: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:56:10 -0500

> How does the idea of NAT destroy the global Internet address space?

because in a NATted network the same addresses are used in different
parts of the network.  addresses are meaningless.

---

From: "Scott Brim" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 08:54:36 -0800

> parts of the network.  addresses are meaningless.

How much meaning does "Keith Moore" have?  Somehow we have a planet with
billions of people on it and those who need to still manage to find the
appropriate "Keith Moore".  How do they do that?  Are there any lessons
to be learned?

...Scott

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:22:02 -0500

> appropriate "Keith Moore".  How do they do that?  Are there any lessons

The lesson to be learned is that we say "The Keith Moore that works at UTK".

In fact, there's a word for when two people use the same exact identifier - 
it's called "identity theft" and usually makes life very difficult for all
concerned - for many of the same reasons that 2 hosts with the same IP
address don't play nice.
-- 
				Valdis Kletnieks
				Operating Systems Analyst
				Virginia Tech

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From: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:20:45 -0500

> appropriate "Keith Moore".  How do they do that?  Are there any lessons

ambiguous names are of course quite useful and even essential in certain 
contexts, but they are not suitable for all purposes.  

for hosts, applications and routers that are communicating over a network 
it is immensely useful to have reasonably stable and unambiguous names 
for points of attachment to that network.  there are many useful functions 
that cannot be accomplished in the absence of such names.

Keith

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From: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:36:57 -0500

[recipient list trimmed]

> The lesson to be learned is that we say "The Keith Moore that works at UTK".

even this is not sufficient.  I once received a telephoned death threat
from someone who had mistaken me with a different Keith Moore from UTK.
fortunately I was able to convince him that he had the wrong person,
but it wasn't easy.

Keith

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From: chris d koeberle <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:49:54 -0500 (EST)

> appropriate "Keith Moore".  How do they do that?  Are there any lessons

They do that by attempting to use additional fields to create a unique
global name for Keith Moore, such as "Keith Moore, the painter from
Dublin" or "Keith Moore, the taxidermist from Dubai."  And just like you
can't identify 192.168.0.1 if it changes the address it lives on in the
global namespace, you'll have a hard time finding your friend Keith if he
moves to Dallas.

The lesson we learn from this is that people need significantly longer
names, in order to prevent confusion, and make it easier to find long-lost
acquaintances.  Not to mention which make the jobs of various government
agencies and courts significantly easier.

-= flail? http://flail.com/ =-
 -= the online comic strip =-

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From: "Melinda Shore" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:54:50 -0500

> appropriate "Keith Moore".  How do they do that?  Are there any lessons

"Keith Moore" is not an address, "Keith Moore" is a name.

Melinda

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From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:39:35 -0500

>>>>> "Scott" == Scott Brim <[email-masked]> writes:
    Scott> How much meaning does "Keith Moore" have?  Somehow we have a
    Scott> planet with billions of people on it and those who need to still
    Scott> manage to find the appropriate "Keith Moore".  How do they do
    Scott> that?  Are there any lessons to be learned?

  We have extendable addresses.
  If the first Keith Moore you find is not the one you want, then you add
some information to the locator: Keith Moore of IETF, Keith Moore of
Tennessee, etc.
  At some point, you may get to: Keith Moore of +1 999 555-1212, on
1400 Pennsylannia Blvd.

  So, one winds up with a unique identifier. It is many bits larger
than "Keith Moore".

  Thus, we have 128 bits in IPv6.

   :!mcr!:            |  Solidum Systems Corporation, http://www.solidum.com
   Michael Richardson |For a better connected world,where data flows faster<tm>
 Personal: http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/People/Michael_Richardson/Bio.html
	mailto:[email-masked]	mailto:[email-masked]