Subject: RE: ipv6 adoption....

From: "Christian Huitema" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:09:14 -0800

Do you really believe that these exchanges are useful? I mean, if you
want to deploy IPv6, just go do it; if you don't care, don't care; if
you think that we really need plan-B, just go work on MPLS or whatever.
But the IETF list is probably not the best place for an opinion contest
about the deployment of IPv6. Everyone knows that its main purpose is to
discuss whether RFC should be written in ASCII or in HTML.

-- Christian Huitema

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From: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:10:11 -0500

> about the deployment of IPv6.

true.  but at the same time, it's good for the wider IETF community to 
discuss the state of IPv6 and the issues associated with deployment,
because it's not just IPv6 experts that need to be familiar with these
things.  and having such a discussion inherently means that opinions
are going to be expressed.

Keith

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From: Lloyd Wood <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:46:16 +0000 (GMT)

> are going to be expressed.

okay, I'll bite.

since when did the wider IETF community (if, indeed, there is such a
thing) read [email-masked]? the wider IETF community probably just
reads a couple of workgroups...

L.

<[email-masked]>PGP<http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/>

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From: John W Noerenberg II <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:28:22 -0800

At 5:46 PM +0000 11/14/01, Lloyd Wood wrote:
>thing) read [email-masked]?

One might get a sense of this by looking at the number of subscribers 
to [email-masked] vs. the number of people who show up at IETF 
meetings.

Steve, could you derive anything like this from you vast wealth of 
Excel spread sheets?

(We all understand that subscribing /= reading)

best,
-- 
john noerenberg
[email-masked]
   --------------------------------------------------------------------
    "We need not to be left alone.  We need to be really
     bothered once in a while."
   -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953
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From: "Jeroen Massar" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:33:00 +0100

> to [email-masked] vs. the number of people who show up at IETF 

Maybe you should consider the fact that some people:
 - don't have time to attend due to work or other activities.
 - aren't in a position to attend (finance, disabilities, distance).
and many other factors?

Not everybody is company funded... a 'great' but sorry note is for
example the postponement of FreeBSD 5.0....
which should have been launched around now... but is postponed untill
next year as 'some companies withdrew financial support' amongst
others...
meaning that some developers couldn't simply make time for another
project because they didn't get payed for it...
Ergo.... no money -> no work for good projects alongside your job (which
earns you actual bread on your plate).... no money -> no ietf
meetings...

Quoting from the ietf site: "The registration fee is USD$425.00 if
received by the..." not even taking care for traveling and hotel
expenses and other costs which come along...
Oee... students can get in for USD$150... let's see that's about 372,53
guilders which last time I checked some students can only just pay their
rent for their room with here in holland... And then I am not even
taking into point traveling costs though with recent events those have
plummeted quite some...
And what about this poor <insert random '3rd' world country> person who
does have great ideas.. should he spend some 10 years of salary to
attend one ietf meeting?
Communicating by email is much cheaper then don't you think?

Greets,
 Jeroen

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From: John W Noerenberg II <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 11:13:32 -0800

>  - aren't in a position to attend (finance, disabilities, distance).

That was part of my thought behind my suggestion, Jeroen.  However, 
before we consider what the data means, we first have to have some 
data.  Hence, the request.  While it is certainly gratifying to 
indulge one's passions about the nature of the IETF, we'll make more 
headway in understanding our own culture, if we take the time to look 
at it objectively.

>Communicating by email is much cheaper then don't you think?

Consequently, you reach people engaged in the work who couldn't 
otherwise participate.  That is the essence of why WG decisions MUST 
come from the result of discussion on the WG mailing list.

best,
-- 

john noerenberg
[email-masked]
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
   While the belief we  have found the Answer can separate us
   and make us forget our humanity, it is the seeking that continues
   to bring us together, the makes and keeps us human.
   -- Daniel J. Boorstin, "The Seekers", 1998
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------