Subject: earlier agendas

From: Fred Douglis <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 15:58:20 -0500

Before the last IETF meeting I asked some IETFers in my company about the
rationale for having the final IETF schedule so close to the meeting date that
one can't necessarily get a reduced-fare ticket for the days one would want to
be there.  I heard back that this is indeed a dead horse, so I guess I'm
beating it publicly this time....

Perhaps a while back it was a given that people could afford the time and
money to attend IETF for the entire week, and therefore the specific agenda is
not so important.  And various people say how important the
cross-fertilization is, and how terrible it would be if people went to the
IETF meeting just for a WG meeting or two and then went home.

I've heard this viewpoint before, and I sympathize, but I think the whole scale
of the IETF has shifted dramatically, and the IETF should be pragmatic.  When
there were 500 people attending, and they could all come for a week and know
everything that's going on, that was fine.  But the economic realities can
impinge on a company's ability to send dozens of people across an ocean (or
even halfway across a continent) for a week at a time (though I do grant that
if you do it for a week, at least you can get the cheap airfare :), and the
people who participate have ever-increasing other demands on their time.

Has anyone done a study to get an idea of what fraction of attendees currently
stay for what fraction of time?  This might shed some light on the subject.
It's one thing to decree that it's a good idea, and it's another thing to
recognize that in practice maybe that's not the way it works anymore...

BTW, I also heard that WG/BOF chairs would kvetch if they had to ask for a
slot earlier.  I can't buy this whatsoever -- if the whole schedule were known
well in advance to start and end two weeks earlier, where's the pain?

Fred

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 11:55:07 +0100

Fred, doing the planning cycle a bit earlier wouldn't hurt anyone,
but there will always be a chance of last minute changes.

However, I have to plead for the traditional argument. Cross-
fertilization is *more important than ever* today. As we have
changed the Internet architecture over the last few years by
adding middleboxes, the implications of one protocol for
another have got stronger, not weaker. You can't just run in,
change a bit in a protocol, and run out again. Everything is
connected to everything. 

For some of us at least, cheap fares mean staying over Saturday
night and two months advance booking. The notion of deciding
at the last minute just doesn't arise.

  Brian

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From: Fred Douglis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 09:37:32 -0500

> but there will always be a chance of last minute changes.

True.  Still, it's clear that changes from preliminary agenda to final are
common, whereas last-minute changes happen even now, but rarely.

> fertilization is *more important than ever* today.

I agree, in principle.  I wonder how well it works in practice?  How many
people currently go for the whole time and attend meetings in every session,
how many go for the whole time and spend most of the time one-on-one, how many
go for targeted sessions, and how many don't go at all but would if they could
commit on a cheap fare in time?  (Less of a problem in the past but I fear a
big problem this time around.  Heck, even with a "cheap" fare there are lots
of other costs...)

> at the last minute just doesn't arise.

Must depend on where you are.  My understanding was that 21-day advance
purchases are common, and guess what, the current deadline for WG scheduling
just misses that deadline, even if the agenda were announced at 1701 on the
day it closes.  Even pushing the announced "final" schedule back from Monday
to the preceding Friday would bridge that gap.

Fred

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:28:40 -0500

At 09:37 AM 11/6/2001 -0500, Fred Douglis wrote:
>go for targeted sessions,

the distinction between the above alternatives does not matter, because 
they all entail being around most of the week.  how the week is spent 
becomes a secondary issue.

>  and how many don't go at all but would if they could
>commit on a cheap fare in time?

given the strong and growing attendance numbers, the response no doubt is 
that some people do not attend because of various costs, but we have a 
model that has worked extremely well for a long time and no signs that 
continuing to use it is causing new, different, or intolerable problems.

The management of the schedule has a wide range of problems.  However that 
statement is a non-event.

No doubt many things could be done better, but most of the problems are 
trade-offs against various issues.  There is no way to optimize this 
process.  We simply make a particular set of sub-optimal choices, because 
that is the best that we can do.

If there ever is a broad base of dissatisfaction, it will be time to 
re-open this can of worms, however attacking bits and pieces of it will not 
be productive.

>  (Less of a problem in the past but I fear a

thanks for mentioning this.  in fact the most serious expense is the TIME 
for travel and being there.

d/

----------
Dave Crocker  <mailto:[email-masked]>
Brandenburg InternetWorking  <http://www.brandenburg.com>
tel +1.408.246.8253;  fax +1.408.273.6464

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From: Fred Douglis <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 10:32:00 -0500

Dave, Brian, and IETF list,

This is generating an interesting discussion, but I don't want uninterested 
parties to grow tired of the discussion on the list.  So I created

   ietf-agenda-debate [at] yahoogroups.com

as an unmoderated and unlisted Yahoo Groups list.  I'm the only member right 
now, and I've posted my reply there.  To join and view the existing messages, 
go to 

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ietf-agenda-debate/join

BTW, the summary of my response is that with cheap nonrefundable fares 
available that don't require a Saturday stay, someone who knows today that 
they need to be at the meeting for just a couple of days so can save an 
enormous amount between airfare and extra hotel nights.  For me, this could 
easily make the difference between going and not going under a tight budget.

Fred