Subject: Re: Proposal to define a simple architecture to differentiate legitimate bulk email from Spam (UBE)

From: Shelby Moore <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 04:57:29 +0800

>grenville armitage wrote:
>Valdis gave you the initial pointer, why should he do your literature review
>(prior art?) research as well?

grenville armitage,

Afair, I think you've sent this post something like 6 times already, which I've tried to ignore.  It seems noise (spam) the only logical rebuttal you have to my proposal against spam.

Furthermore, I have searched and I have not found any one suggesting exactly what I have proposed here.  I have challenged Valdis to provide a link to prior art which proposes what I have proposed and Valdis has not done so (yet).

Shelby Moore
http://AntiViotic.com

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From: grenville armitage <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:08:13 +1000

Shelby Moore wrote:
> Afair, I think you've sent this post something like 6 times already,

We inhabit different worlds. The email archives for this list, of which
you are so fond, suggest I sent this once. My mail client's records show I
sent it once. Perhaps your statistical spam measurement techniques need
some tweaking.

gja

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From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:22:52 -0700

> literature review (prior art?) research

as bernard pointed out a while ago, the lack of a review of, and
reference to, the [should be] known literature is notable in many
classes of ietf work and an embarrassing number of internet
drafts.

randy

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From: Bob Hinden <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 16:57:57 -0700

Randy,

>classes of ietf work and an embarrassing number of internet

I think the expression that applies to parts of the IETF community is 
something like, instead of standing on the shoulders of those who have come 
before us, we stand on their toes....

Bob

p.s. I am not the originator of this phrase, but can't remember where I 
heard it first.

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From: Joe Touch <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:15:34 -0700

... and email messages, to wit:

> something like, instead of standing on the shoulders of those who have 
> come before us, we stand on their toes....
> 
> Bob
> 

Pygmies placed on the shoulders of giants see more than the giants 
themselves.
	Roman poet Marcus Lucan, 63AD.
	http://www.wfs.org/Q-intro.htm

The "toes" part is implied (as an alternative) in the more 
frequently-cited variant from Isaac Newton:

If I have seen further [than certain other men]
it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants.
	Letter to Robert Hooke, February 5, 1675.
	http://www.bartleby.com/66/18/41418.html

(FWIW, the "toes" part doesn't have specific origin in any of the 
'usual' references, or even via Google. In the spirit of collaboration, 
I invite others to help search for that more exact citation.)

An interesting variants, esp. in the context of the IETF, IMO:

If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing 
on my shoulders.
	Hal Abelson
	http://www.historyoftheuniverse.com/giantsho.html

;-)

Joe

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From: Dave Farber <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:44:02 -0400

The stand on toes was, to the best of my knowledge , attributable to Dick 
Hamming who said roughly

Mathematician said he stood on the shoulders of the great mathematicians 
that proceeded him, in Computer Science we stand of the toes of those who 
preceded us"

>Pygmies placed on the shoulders of giants see more than the giants themselves.
>(FWIW, the "toes" part doesn't have specific origin in any of the 'usual' 
>references, or even via Google. In the spirit of collaboration, I invite 
>others to help search for that more exact citation.)
>
>If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on 
>my shoulders.
>         Hal Abelson