Subject: FYI: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-iasa-bcp-04.txt (fwd)

From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:43:57 +0100

Folks,

as you can see, version -04 is out.
It should reflect pretty accurately the items that seemed to have consensus 
as of last night; on still open issues, it contains either the same text as 
before or some proposed text.

As usual, diffs and HTML are available from the adminrest page:

http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/adminrest/

Enjoy!

                    Harald

---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Date: fredag, januar 14, 2005 15:33:05 -0500
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Cc:
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-iasa-bcp-04.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.

	Title		: Structure of the IETF Administrative Support Activity (IASA)
	Author(s)	: R. Austein, B. Wijnen
	Filename	: draft-ietf-iasa-bcp-04.txt
	Pages		: 25
	Date		: 2005-1-14
	
This document describes the structure of the IETF Administrative
   Support Activity (IASA) as an IETF-controlled activity housed within
   the Internet Society (ISOC) legal umbrella.  It defines the roles and
   responsibilities of the IETF Administrative Oversight Committee
   (IAOC), the IETF Administrative Director (IAD), and ISOC in the
   fiscal and administrative support of the IETF standards process. It
   also defines the membership and selection rules for the IAOC.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-iasa-bcp-04.txt
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:33:05 -0500
List-Id: i-d-announce.ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title		: Structure of the IETF Administrative Support Activity (IASA)
	Author(s)	: R. Austein, B. Wijnen
	Filename	: draft-ietf-iasa-bcp-04.txt
	Pages		: 25
	Date		: 2005-1-14
	
This document describes the structure of the IETF Administrative
   Support Activity (IASA) as an IETF-controlled activity housed within
   the Internet Society (ISOC) legal umbrella.  It defines the roles and
   responsibilities of the IETF Administrative Oversight Committee
   (IAOC), the IETF Administrative Director (IAD), and ISOC in the
   fiscal and administrative support of the IETF standards process. It
   also defines the membership and selection rules for the IAOC.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-iasa-bcp-04.txt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to 
[email-masked] with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message.  
You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce 
to change your subscription settings.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-iasa-bcp-04.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
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Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

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---

From: "Lynn St.Amour" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:03:35 -0500

At 11:43 PM +0100 1/14/05, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:
>It should reflect pretty accurately the items that seemed to have 
>consensus as of last night; on still open issues, it contains either 
>the same text as before or some proposed text.
>

Harald,

I have a couple of comments below; I will address some of the other 
questions raised by Margaret and Rob by responding to their mails. 
Also, note: the ISOC Board is reviewing the -04 version and my 
comments should not be interpreted as the full extent of ISOC's 
comments, those will be sent soon.

-- In 2.1

>  IAOC: Internet Administrative Oversight Committee, defined by this document.

Should be IETF rather than Internet (especially with the current 
governance discussion underway unless we really want to liven that 
discussion up :-).  I think the references in the document itself are 
OK but I did not do a thorough check.

-- In 2.2 principle 8 - note: this is not a critical change, but it 
may be helpful to more accurately reference later text in the 
document.

>The IASA, in cooperation with ISOC, shall ensure that sufficient

s/reserves/reserves or other mechanisms/

>  exist to keep the IETF operational in the case of unexpected events 
>such as income shortfalls.

-- In 5.6 Operating Reserve

>    As an initial guideline and in normal operating circumstances, the
>    IASA should have an operating reserve for its activities sufficient
>    to cover 6-months of non-meeting operational expenses, plus twice the
>    recent average for meeting contract guarantees.  However, the IASA
>    shall establish a target for a reserve fund to cover normal operating
>    expenses and meeting expenses in accordance with prudent planning.

This doesn't seem to parse clearly - are you suggesting that the 
targeted reserve fund will be different from the initial guideline as 
described in the first sentence (or maybe it's a timeframe 
difference?)?   If you want to leave it up to IASA (IAOC?), why not 
say so directly,  perhaps referencing the "under normal operating 
circumstances"  etc. etc.

Minor editorial comments:

- In 3.1 6th para - delete redundant "should"

- In 3.2 1st para - delete redundant "be"

- In 4 4th para - delete redundant "as"

Again, thanks to everyone (and especially Bert, Rob and Henrik) for 
all the work.

Regards,

Lynn

---

From: "Lynn St.Amour" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:03:35 -0500

Harald,

-- In 2.1

Regards,

Lynn

---

From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:16:58 +0100

Thanks for the comments, Lynn!

--On søndag, januar 16, 2005 18:03:35 -0500 "Lynn St.Amour" 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> questions raised by Margaret and Rob by responding to their mails. Also,
> note: the ISOC Board is reviewing the -04 version and my comments should
> not be interpreted as the full extent of ISOC's comments, those will be
> sent soon.
>
> -- In 2.1
>
> discussion up :-).  I think the references in the document itself are OK
> but I did not do a thorough check.

Ouch - this got noticed before, but we did not fix it. Right you are!

> -- In 2.2 principle 8 - note: this is not a critical change, but it may
> be helpful to more accurately reference later text in the document.
>

Question on language: in this case (both here and in the title of 5.6), the 
doc tries to use "reserves" to mean "money available if needed", and 
"provide reserve" as "have money in the bank or other means of coming up 
with money if needed".
Is it better in your opinion to use "reserve or other mechanism" when 
referring to having money available?

I think we're in sync on what its meaning needs to be, and working on how 
to express it.

> This doesn't seem to parse clearly - are you suggesting that the targeted
> reserve fund will be different from the initial guideline as described in
> the first sentence (or maybe it's a timeframe difference?)?   If you want
> to leave it up to IASA (IAOC?), why not say so directly,  perhaps
> referencing the "under normal operating circumstances"  etc. etc.

The intent was to make it clear that the IASA will make a decision on the 
needed reserves for any given year (I assume that the IAD will propose 
something after due consultation and IAOC will approve it, but writing that 
here is clearly overkill), and that the IETF community would give a little 
guidance ("six months seems OK") and then let them decide.

We can imagine all sorts of circumstances where reserves would depart from 
norm (after one meeting is cancelled because of a volcano, reserves are 
lower than usual; after a gift of 100M dollars from a retired dot-com 
magnate, the reserves are higher....)

Suggestion for how to make this "place authority + non-binding guidance" 
clearer?

> Again, thanks to everyone (and especially Bert, Rob and Henrik) for all
> the work.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lynn
>

---

From: "Lynn St.Amour" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:55:19 -0500

At 8:16 AM +0100 1/17/05, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:
>--On søndag, januar 16, 2005 18:03:35 -0500 
>"Lynn St.Amour" <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>
>Question on language: in this case (both here 
>and in the title of 5.6), the doc tries to use 
>"reserves" to mean "money available if needed", 
>and "provide reserve" as "have money in the bank 
>or other means of coming up with money if 
>needed".
>Is it better in your opinion to use "reserve or 
>other mechanism" when referring to having money 
>available?
>
>I think we're in sync on what its meaning needs 
>to be, and working on how to express it.

per another exchange with Bert:

><bwijnen>
>I think current text is fine. In the principles it just says "reserves"
>and so I do not read that as meaning money explicitly. That detail
>comes later.
><bwijnen>

So, I can live with current text per Bert's note...

>The intent was to make it clear that the IASA 
>will make a decision on the needed reserves for 
>any given year (I assume that the IAD will 
>propose something after due consultation and 
>IAOC will approve it, but writing that here is 
>clearly overkill), and that the IETF community 
>would give a little guidance ("six months seems 
>OK") and then let them decide.
>
>We can imagine all sorts of circumstances where 
>reserves would depart from norm (after one 
>meeting is cancelled because of a volcano, 
>reserves are lower than usual; after a gift of 
>100M dollars from a retired dot-com magnate, the 
>reserves are higher....)
>
>Suggestion for how to make this "place authority 
>+ non-binding guidance" clearer?
>

OK, thanks much Harald for the clarity.  How 
about moving: "place authority + non-binding 
guidance" to "place authority + jointly developed 
guidance"? :  If you agree I've suggested some 
text below (changes in CAPS).

As an initial guideline and in normal operating 
circumstances, the IASA should have an operating 
reserve for its activities sufficient to cover 
6-months of non-meeting operational expenses, 
plus twice the recent average for meeting 
contract guarantees.  However, the IASA WORKING 
WITH ISOC shall establish ANNUAL TARGETS for a 
reserve fund to cover normal operating expenses 
and meeting expenses in accordance with prudent 
planning.

Regards,

Lynn