Subject: Warning - risk of duty free stuff being confiscated on the way to Prague

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:10:39 +0100

It is reported by The Economist dated March 10 that if you buy duty free liquids outside Europe, carry them on the plane with 
you, and have to go through airport security while changing planes in Europe, your liquids will be confiscated, assuming they 
exceed 100 ccs.

Europe in this case means the EU plus Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. If you are flying from anywhere else to Prague and 
changing planes in Europe, this will certainly apply at major airports such as London Heathrow, Paris CDG, etc., and wherever 
international transit passengers must go through security checkpoints.

To avoid losing your alcohol or perfume, they need to be in your checked baggage.

     Brian

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From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:55:06 -0400

I know for a fact (because it happened to me Friday) that
liquids are confiscated on the security check required to transit at
London Heathrow. 100 milliliters is the limit, and this includes duty- 
free purchased
elsewhere in-route.

Now, of course, you can _buy_ duty free at Heathrow and carry it on  
the plane. How
convenient.

Regards
Marshall

On Mar 11, 2007, at 11:10 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> It is reported by The Economist dated March 10 that if you buy duty  
> free liquids outside Europe, carry them on the plane with you, and  
> have to go through airport security while changing planes in  
> Europe, your liquids will be confiscated, assuming they exceed 100  
> ccs.
>
> Europe in this case means the EU plus Norway, Iceland and  
> Switzerland. If you are flying from anywhere else to Prague and  
> changing planes in Europe, this will certainly apply at major  
> airports such as London Heathrow, Paris CDG, etc., and wherever

---

From: "Eric A. Hall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:14:11 -0400

On 3/11/2007 11:55 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
> free purchased elsewhere in-route.
> 
> the plane. How convenient.

clearly a certificate-trust problem

-- 
Eric A. Hall                                        http://www.ehsco.com/
Internet Core Protocols          http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/coreprot/

---

From: "Steven M. Bellovin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:40:50 -0400

On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:55:06 -0400
Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]> wrote:

> London Heathrow. 100 milliliters is the limit, and this includes
> duty-free purchased elsewhere in-route.
> 

I believe there are similar issues for travel to the US -- see
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/duty_free_travel_alert.shtm
and http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/duty_free.shtm

		--Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb

---

From: John Levine <[email-masked]>
Date: 11 Mar 2007 19:33:46 -0000

>I believe there are similar issues for travel to the US --

Right.  Any time you are flying to or from the US or to or from the
UK, you can expect the inane rule that liquids must fit in a baggie to
apply.

So if you want that cheap bottle of Scotch to dull the pain of
interminable BOF sessions, get it on the last hop.  Since the Czech
republic has not yet implmented the Schengen rules, if you connect in
Europe, that will the last hop on the trip to Prague.

Coming home, it'll be wherever you get on the plane heading to the
US. If you change planes in the US you'll still have to put it in your
luggage after you clear customs and hope that the TSA doesn't drink it
for you.

R's,
John

---

From: "Yaakov Stein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 00:01:14 +0200

> I believe there are similar issues for travel to the US 

yes, I just had my bottle of water confiscated in Dallas airport
(coming back from another convention at the same hotel as IETF65)
and had to buy another bottle (of precisely the same type) two steps
after the security check.

It seems that the airport stores have figured out how to profit
from these rulings, just as the airlines profit from the photo-ID
requirement.
So don't expect this to go away ...

Y(J)S

---

From: Harald Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:32:07 +0100

I've seen people get through security with duty free bottles.
But that requires that the bottles are sealed in a clear plastic bag, 
and that you can plainly see the receipt from the duty free store you 
bought them at through the plastic (the receipt has to be INSIDE the bag).

Last hop does it. Or, in the ultimate acknowledgement of the silliniess 
of "duty free alcohol", your destination may do like Norway does, and 
let you buy your "duty free export" *after landing*.

                        Harald

Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> have to go through airport security while changing planes in Europe, 
> your liquids will be confiscated, assuming they exceed 100 ccs.
>
> Europe in this case means the EU plus Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. 
> If you are flying from anywhere else to Prague and changing planes in 
> Europe, this will certainly apply at major airports such as London 
> Heathrow, Paris CDG, etc., and wherever international transit 
> passengers must go through security checkpoints.
>

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:55:15 -0700

Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> It is reported by The Economist dated March 10 that if you buy duty free 
> liquids outside Europe, carry them on the plane with you, and have to go 
> through airport security while changing planes in Europe, your liquids 
> will be confiscated, assuming they exceed 100 ccs.

10 minutes ago, I watched a guy get caught in this trap, in Los Angeles.

French guy, bought some Champagne at duty free for his previous flight, 
switching terminals and, therefore, having to go through security.  Boy, what 
he pissed off!

d/

ps.  No, I don't know why a French guy was buying Champagne, when he was about 
to fly to France...

-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net

---

From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:12:04 -0700

Guys - This is true (or, supposed to be true) in ALL countries.  You go
between two sterile environments, and ALL the rules get reset.  This isn't a
Europe thing, a U.S. thing, or a foobar thing.  It's the way airport
security works.

> ps.  No, I don't know why a French guy was buying Champagne, when he was about

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:25:25 -0700

> Europe thing, a U.S. thing, or a foobar thing.  It's the way airport

Sure.  But while folk like us probably ought to think of the issuebefore we 
buy something in Duty Free -- because, after all, we *always* forsee the full 
range of interaction effects, when making changes to complex systems -- it's 
not reasonable to expect average travellers to.

No warnings.  Nothing.

They get inside a security perimeter and think they are safe to buy the 
liquids they could not take through the perimeter.

d/

-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: Mark Andrews <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:39:37 +1100

> not reasonable to expect average travellers to.

	At least the last time I bought duty free alcohol, Febuary,
	the staff warned me before I completed the transaction that
	I would not get it through security.  I luckily have the
	option of purchasing it when I leaving and picking it up
	just before immigration and customs.  The pre-departure
	price is also less than the pre-arrival price.

	Mark
 
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: [email-masked]

---

From: "David Harrington" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:28:28 -0400

Maybe they should sell the liquor in small transparent baggies.

dbh 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Andrews [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:40 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: IETF discussion list
> Subject: Re: Warning - risk of duty free stuff being 
> confiscated on the wayto Prague 
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Eric Burger wrote:

---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:42:08 -0700

Maybe the airlines should simply shut down the duty free shops and send every passenger a discount coupon for $10 off a bottle of booze bought in their local liquor store.

I find that the prices at CostCo are remarkably similar to those at most duty free shops and considerably more convenient than carrying additional luggage.

> From: David Harrington [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:28 AM
> To: 'IETF discussion list'
> Subject: RE: Warning - risk of duty free stuff being 
> confiscated on thewayto Prague 
> 
> > Subject: Re: Warning - risk of duty free stuff being confiscated on 
> > the wayto Prague
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Eric Burger wrote:

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:03:37 +0100

So, one of the perqs in flying business class that I find useful is to have my 
baggage get that extra, spiffy 'priority' tag.  Often saves 30-60 minutes.

Just arrived in Praha and from what I could see, all the bags labeled that way 
came off *last*.

Some residue of the previous regime?

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: Christian Huitema <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 08:54:58 -0700

> Maybe the airlines should simply shut down the duty free shops and
send
> every passenger a discount coupon for $10 off a bottle of booze bought
> in their local liquor store.

The policy is not specific to duty free. I was caught by it last month
during a domestic trip in France. I had bought Armagnac from a local
producer in the South of France, and was flying bag to Paris. Luckily,
the registration mentioned the policy, and gave me time to stuff the
bottle in my checked-in suitcase.

The rule is simple: you cannot bring a container greater than 100 cc,
about 3 oz, in an airplane through security. You can bring several
containers of lower capacity than 100 cc, but the combined capacity of
these container is limited; they have to all fit in a 1 liter plastic
bag. 

The theoretical rationale for the rule imagines terrorists mixing
products in a bottle. Each of the products is supposedly harmless, or at
least not detected by airport security machines, but the combined result
is explosive. By limiting the capacity of the container, the security
folks hope to limit the potential of any device fabricated aboard the
plane.

Those of us who have toiled through chemistry labs may find the all idea
somewhat theoretical. You may remember the dire warnings of the teachers
about what happens if you fail to control a reaction, if you let it
overheat, or if you shake it a little too much. You may consider the
improbability of repeating the experience in the shaky cramped space of
an airliner's toilet. But then, you would not have the same mindset as
the airline security folks.

Given the rationale, I am still puzzled by the fact that bottles bought
after the security check are allowed on board. Probably has to be a
compromise between air traffic security and airport economics. 

-- Christian Huitema

---

From: "Clint Chaplin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:33:48 -0700

I get the priority tag, because I'm Premium level.

The only airport I've seen actually honor that tag is Singapore.  San
Francisco doesn't care, and neither did Paris nor London.  Neither,
come to think of it, did Frankfurt.

-- 
Clint (JOATMON) Chaplin
Principal Engineer
Corporate Standardization (US)
SISA

---

From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:42:28 +0100

> come to think of it, did Frankfurt.

You mean they marked but have only a single queue?  What sort of SLA 
were you given?

;-)

---

From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:18:42 -0400

There is no SLA regarding the priority tags on bags. I've found that most
airports ignore them, so I'm always pleasantly surprised when the priority
bags come out first. For the most part, my experience has been that bags
tend to show up in LIFO order, so you're being rewarded for checking in
late. :-)

Cheers,
Andy

---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:12:36 -0700

Let us assume that there is no special truck to take the baggage from the plane to the collection point.
 
If there is only one truck the best-case benefit of a prioity tag is limited to the time it takes for the guy to put the bags on the belt.

________________________________

	From: Andrew G. Malis [mailto:[email-masked]] 
	Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:19 PM
	To: Eliot Lear
	Cc: IETF discussion list; [email-masked]
	Subject: Re: Non-priority baggage handling (Re: Warning - risk of duty free...)

	There is no SLA regarding the priority tags on bags. I've found that most airports ignore them, so I'm always pleasantly surprised when the priority bags come out first. For the most part, my experience has been that bags tend to show up in LIFO order, so you're being rewarded for checking in late. :-) 
	 
	Cheers,
	Andy

		
		
		;-)

---

From: Joe Touch <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:50:35 -0700

AFAICT, they're just visible indicators of who flies a lot, which means
they also tell people which bags might be more valuable to steal. I ask
them not to put the tags on.

Joe

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:23:09 -0400

--On Friday, 16 March, 2007 07:50 -0700 Joe Touch
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> AFAICT, they're just visible indicators of who flies a lot,
> which means they also tell people which bags might be more
> valuable to steal. I ask them not to put the tags on.

Joe,

I've also been told by a couple of airlines that, if your bag
gets lost and ends up sitting in a "figure out who this belongs
to and how to get it there" area, those brightly-colored tags
get the first attention.  I cannot verify this from experience:
after some lost luggage incidents lately, if the "priority" tags
get higher priority treatment, I hate to think about what the
rest of the bags are getting.

   john

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:41:38 -0400

On 16-Mar-2007, at 14:23, John C Klensin wrote:

> get the first attention.

My experience with Air Canada suggests that such areas do not  
actually exist, and in fact lost bags get redirected to zones which  
might be more accurately described by the phrase "here be dragons".

Joe

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:02:20 -0700

>  them not to put the tags on.

I suspect that those who travel a lot are less likely to pack 
anything valuable in checked luggage.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
[Television is] chewing gum for the eyes.
    --attribributed to Fred Allen via Frank Lloyd Wright

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:02:20 -0700

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:06:18 -0700

At 4:18 PM -0400 3/15/07, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

>  I've found that most airports ignore them, so I'm always pleasantly 
> surprised when the priority bags come out first.

My experience has been that this varies a lot by airport, and often 
by carrier at an airport, both for putting the tags on, and for 
having them come out first.

At 4:12 PM -0700 3/15/07, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>  If there is only one truck the best-case benefit of a prioity tag 
> is limited to the time it takes for the guy to put the bags on the 
> belt.

There are often multiple "trucks", even if they are all linked 
together and pulled by one tractor.  There may or may not be more 
than one linked chain.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are
wonderful.                                               --Ann Landers

[10.50.0.108])
	by totoro.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/1.0) with ESMTP id l2HM6MSZ029067;
	Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:06:27 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:06:18 -0700
To: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>, "Eliot Lear" <[email-masked]>
From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Cc: IETF discussion list <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Non-priority baggage handling (Re: Warning - risk of duty
 free 	...)

At 4:18 PM -0400 3/15/07, Andrew G. Malis wrote:

>  I've found that most airports ignore them, so I'm always pleasantly 
> surprised when the priority bags come out first.

My experience has been that this varies a lot by airport, and often 
by carrier at an airport, both for putting the tags on, and for 
having them come out first.

At 4:12 PM -0700 3/15/07, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>  If there is only one truck the best-case benefit of a prioity tag 
> is limited to the time it takes for the guy to put the bags on the 
> belt.

There are often multiple "trucks", even if they are all linked 
together and pulled by one tractor.  There may or may not be more 
than one linked chain.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are
wonderful.                                               --Ann Landers

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:09:26 -0700

>  come to think of it, did Frankfurt.

I've experienced priority-tagged bags coming out first at several 
airport/airline combinations, including Cathay Pacific in Hong Kong, 
American in LAX (where they have one carrousel for priority bags and 
one for non-priority), and Qantas in LAX (where the priority 
carrousel includes coach passengers who are connecting), Qantas in 
Sydney, and Qantas in Hong Kong.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
An algorithm must be seen to be believed.  -- Donald Knuth

---

From: Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:02:01 -0500

I just got through watching the DFW baggage handler that takes  
checked baggage from the x-ray machine back to the conveyor belt. He  
went out of his way to be rough with the bags--tossing them high in  
the air to land upside down--when simply placing it on the belt would  
have required less effort.

Perhaps he works even harder for bags marked priority :-)

---

From: Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:02:01 -0500