Subject: IETF 70 and 73 Venue Announcement

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:44:40 -0500

The IETF is pleased to announce its meeting locations for IETF's 70 and 
73, and they are locations we have been to before.

IETF 70 will be held in Vancouver at the Vancouver Westin from December 
2nd through the 7th 2007.  You may recall IETF 64 was at this facility.

IETF 73 will be held in Minneapolis at the Minneapolis Hilton from 
November 16 through the 21st in 2008.  IETF's 62 and 53 were held in 
Minneapolis.

More information about these venues will be published after Prague.

Expressions of interest in hosting or sponsoring meetings may be made to 
Terry Monroe at [email-masked].  The future meetings calendar can be 
found at: http://www3.ietf.org/meetings/0mtg-sites.txt

See you in Prague.

Ray Pelletier
IETF Administrative Director

_______________________________________________
Ietf mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

---

From: Lars Eggert <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:48:23 +0200

Ray,

On 2007-3-6, at 0:44, ext Ray Pelletier wrote:
> IETF 70 will be held in Vancouver
> IETF 73 will be held in Minneapolis

while it's absolutely fantastic to see announcements of specific  
locations and dates this far ahead, we seem to have been moving to a  
cycle of 3 meetings in North America and 1 abroad recently:

IETF 64, 65, 66, 67 in North America (I know 67 was a fallback)
IETF 68 abroad
IETF 69, 70, 71 in North America
IETF 72 unknown
IETF 73 in North America

I was under the impression that one of the goals of the advance  
meeting planning was to more easily secure international sites for  
meetings, where the hotels require earlier booking. That doesn't  
quite seem to work out, however?

Lars

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:36:49 -0500

> IETF 69, 70, 71 in North America

70 was also a fallback when lengthy negotiations for an Asian site 
terminated unsucessfully

> IETF 72 unknown

Will *not* be in North America - Could be Asia or Europe, options for 
each are being developed.

> IETF 73 in North America

2009 74 - Europe, 75 - Asis, 76 - North America, for which sites are 
already being preqaulified.
2010 North America, Europe, North America are provisionally targeted.

> quite seem to work out, however?

These days you need to be looking a minimum 18 - 24 months out to find 
available qualified sites.  It's why we developed the 2008 - 2010 
calendar and, I expect,  will be adding 2011 and 2012 dates before 
Chicago. 
Ray

>
> Lars
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:52:24 -0500

--On Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 10:36 -0500 Ray Pelletier
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> I was under the impression that one of the goals of the
>> advance   meeting planning was to more easily secure
>> international sites for   meetings, where the hotels require
>> earlier booking. That doesn't   quite seem to work out,
>> however?
> 
> These days you need to be looking a minimum 18 - 24 months out
> to find available qualified sites.  It's why we developed the
> 2008 - 2010 calendar and, I expect,  will be adding 2011 and
> 2012 dates before Chicago.

Ray, can I at least express the hope that longer lead times will
permit more diligent checking of issues surrounding meeting
locations that might prevent people from attending or cause
serious problems after arrival?  When these issues are known,
understood by IAOC and the Secretariat, perhaps discussed with
the community, and then accepted as tradeoffs for an attractive
meeting location (good facilities, reasonable balance of costs,
extensive IETF participation in the area, etc.) that is fine.
But, when they sneak up on us and turn into "gotcha"s after the
meeting is committed and can't be changed, I (at least) think
that is a problem.

Examples, some of which have been discussed extensively in the
past and some of which have not, include:

(i) visa policies that may prevent significant numbers of IETF
participants who regularly come to meetings from attending.

(ii) health insurance, immunization, or health history
requirements that may prove a barrier to getting into the
country.

(iii) environmental issues, such as air quality, prevalence of
disease, or crime rates (see example 1, below) that might
constrain attendance.

(iv) locations that require excessively high fares and/or long
travel times for an excessive number of people, especially when
other alternatives are feasible in the same general area.

(v) hotel policies that are inconsistent with the combination of
these long lead times and the way we hold meetings (see example
2, below).  

In each of these cases, I think you, the IAOC and the
Secretariat must take responsibility for their decisions, not,
e.g., enable a Wiki, copy some vague information from the hotel
web site that mostly has to do with driving directions, and hope
that participants and attendees will sort things out.

    john

Example 1: Several members of the community have unpleasant
memories of IETF in Paris due to a rather high rate of thefts in
and around the venue.   The Salk Airport Transit Guide, whose
editors are not normally given to hysteria or being alarmist,
includes some interesting comments about Prague (a level of
warning I haven't noticed about any other city in the world).
Under the entry for taxis from the airport they say "Warning:
Prague's taxi drivers have earned as nasty reputation for
illegal practices, resulting in exorbitant overcharges,
intimidation, and even stealing wallets in the resulting
confusion. [...] At the airport, take a taxi only where a
dispatcher is present. [...]  Avoid, if possible, taxi stands at
[...]." (The stuff I've elided is no better.)  About the local
buses, they say "Warning: Outright theft by organized gangs has
been known to take place on some bus routes.  Be alert!".  I
don't know if these sorts of issues were considered when
selecting the site, but there has certainly been no evidence so
far that they were.

Example 2: These long lead times encourage many of us to make
hotel reservations a very long time in advance (see Ole's recent
note "on behalf of hotel-bookers anonymous").   But IETF, and
IETF-related, schedules --including schedules for some meetings
that might occur from the Friday or Saturday before the meeting
through the Sunday after it, are not pinned down until much
closer to the meeting and knowledge of who should be at those
meetings may come later yet (e.g., I don't know know if the IAB
is meeting on Saturday, but sometimes they do, and some of the
the people who should be at such a meeting if it is being held
presumably found out only last week).   In the case of this
particular meeting at least, suppose reservations are made
months in advance and the "IETF Block" closed --either via
timeout or because the room count is filled.  Now a person comes
along who has a reservation at the IETF but now needs to add a
day at one end or the other.   The response from the hotel is
"we have the rooms available, but do we have a deal for you:
either you can have the same room all week (at EUR 420 a day, if
I recall) or you can try to make a separate reservation for the
extra day (at that rate or higher) and risk our having to move
you, possibly to a smoking room next to one that is under
construction.  As another version, this hotel changed my
reservation from "non-smoking" to "smoking" without any notice
to me.  I happened to go to the web site and therefore noticed
and a phone call to Hilton straightened it out, but then the
hotel did it again.  I called Hilton again, and got it fixed
again (and an apology about things "the property" was doing that
were not under their control, but I'm not feeling really good
about the situation and, from my point of view, my problem isn't
with the hotel but with IAD/ Secretariat/ IAOC choices and,
presumably, contractual details you negotiated.

---

From: Edward Lewis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:54:09 -0500

I will attest to Prague being survivable.  I have been there once 
already and suffered no ill effects and was not robbed.  I.e., don't 
panic.

Location for location, the IETF (only) goes to the tamest and most 
accessible places in the world.  Compare it to other Internet 
organizations.

At 14:52 -0500 3/6/07...:
...
>Prague's taxi drivers ...

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Sarcasm doesn't scale.

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:58:45 -0500

I have been to Prague 3 times in the last 5 years. It is quite  
survivable.

However, the taxi's are ... unregulated. I would suggest that IETFers  
never take a cab on
the street. You may pay 50 Euros to go 1 km. Get the hotel, store,  
restaurant, whatever,
where you are to order you a cab, and you won't have problems. This  
is true even if there
are cabs waiting just outside where you are.

Regards
Marshall

On Mar 7, 2007, at 10:54 AM, Edward Lewis wrote:

> already and suffered no ill effects and was not robbed.  I.e.,  
> don't panic.
>

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:45:10 +0100

On 2007-03-07 16:58, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
> I have been to Prague 3 times in the last 5 years. It is quite survivable.
> 
> where you are to order you a cab, and you won't have problems. This is 
> true even if there

Re the airport:
http://www.myczechrepublic.com/prague/prague-airport-taxi.html

    Brian

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:56:44 -0500

--On Wednesday, 07 March, 2007 10:54 -0500 Edward Lewis
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> I will attest to Prague being survivable.  I have been there
> once already and suffered no ill effects and was not robbed.
> I.e., don't panic.
> 
> Location for location, the IETF (only) goes to the tamest and
> most accessible places in the world.  Compare it to other
> Internet organizations.
> 

Ed,

I have not suggested "don't go to Prague", and certainly don't
want to set off a panic -- any more than I would have suggested
avoiding Paris.   I am just suggesting that the IASA apparatus,
including the Secretariat and the IAD, should be taking a little
more responsibility for both the decisions and for informing the
community about good and bad alternatives than has been the case
here... and, in the longer term, for making sure that all of
these issues are considered as part of the decision.

       john

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:02:49 -0800

Edward Lewis wrote:
> already and suffered no ill effects and was not robbed.  I.e., don't panic.
...
>> Prague's taxi drivers ...

When the IETF started having the meetings outside the U.S., there seemed to be 
two basic reasons.  One was to adjust the burden of attendee travel, with a 
slight shift towards more fairness for attendees from outside the U.S.  The 
other was to have our presence in the locale serve to encourage improvements 
to the local infrastructure.

The former is obviously still valid.  By and large, the latter hasn't been for 
a number of years. So it really is not reasonable for us to go to places that 
have poor Internet services, except that I'm one of those folk who think that 
having to go through a meeting venue learning curve for installing and 
debugging the net makes our meeting more fragile than it should be.  But even 
that issue has gotten far less risky around the world, even for first-time 
IETF presence.

But it occurs to me that there is an additional benefit that has been lurking, 
and I think it just surfaced:  We kind folk from the U.S. tend to have very 
little understanding of what is "normal" elsewhere in the world.  Even those 
of us with real travel experience often are so sheltered in those trips, or 
narrow in our venues, we have no serious basis for appreciating what to worry 
about, and what to merely be cautious about.

A month before the Paris IETF, I was in Paris, at the same convention center, 
and had my wallet stolen as I was leaving the Metro.  First such experience. 
Very traumatizing.  But I'm hard-pressed to view Paris as more dangerous than 
any large U.S. city.  And Amsterdam has public signs warning of pick-pockets. 
  Should we avoid it, too?  My Paris trauma came at the end of a fabulous day, 
and although during IETF week, I had a bit of a tremor when I had to use the 
same metro station, it was, still, the same, wonderful Paris of the travel books.

Frankly, I have the same worries about Prague as John. I have read the same 
sorts of cautions that he has and must admit that seeing such cautions show up 
in a Frommer's is pretty unusual.

So, I fully intend to be on guard.  (And I am staying at a place that will 
require serious use of the transit system.)

But, then, that's the lesson:  Some places are seriously dangerous.  We should 
stay away from them.  Some merely warrant caution.  And most places that 
American's worry about are no worse than most cities in the U.S.  Just different.

Yes, it can be a challenge to find credible ways to distinguish between the 
two, but it's clear that the otherwise review of published reports is not 
sufficient.

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net

---

From: Ralph Droms <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:23:21 -0500

I visited Prague about two years ago and had the same experience as Ed.  I
traveled via the Metro and on foot, visited all the tourist traps; had no
problems and never felt unsafe.

- Ralph

---

From: "ASH, GERALD R, ATTLABS" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:29:28 -0600

You can arrange a taxi pick up at the airport directly with the Hilton
(Hilton taxi driver will be waiting in the arrivals hall right behind
the customs holding a sign with your name and Hilton Logo).  Cost for
taxi (CZK 750, EUR 25) can be posted to your hotel account.

Jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:45 AM
To: Marshall Eubanks
Cc: Edward Lewis; IETF Discussion
Subject: Re: Prague

survivable.

Re the airport:

    Brian

---

From: "David Harrington" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:30:20 -0500

Hi,

I travelled to Prague after the Vienna IETF in 2003.
It's a city; you need to take city precautions.

There are signs of poverty, mostly outside the city center. I was
surprised when I arrived (by train) by people aggressively trying to
rent me a room in their house, and by taxi drivers who grab your bag
and try to lead you to their taxi. Things might have changed by now,
or not.

I accepted a room in a private home from a person at the airport, 45
minutes by train outside of Prague, where people are striving to make
enough to join the middle class. My landlord was a doctor, who found
it more profitable to rent rooms in his house than practice medicine.
Most IETFers will be better off financially, and will show it, so we
become obvious targets. 

In three weeks of travelling through the Czech Republic and Slovakia,
with no reservations and usually renting a room (a zimmer) in private
houses, I met many wonderful people and never had a problem. I
travelled alone at night usually. I was probably lucky, since I did
not take many precautions that are simply common sense.

Prague is a wonderful tourist spot with good food, good bier, quality
shopping, lots of culture, and many interesting things to see. I rate
it as one of my favorite cities in Europe.

So I agree that Prague is very survivable. 

David Harrington
[email-masked] 
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

> From: Dave Crocker [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:03 PM
> To: IETF Discussion
> Subject: Re: Prague
> 
> 
> 
> Edward Lewis wrote:

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:35:42 -0800 (PST)

Just to add to Dave's comments: The information provided needs to be 
based on "reality" rather than hyperbole. A bunch of us just returned 
from Bali which according to the US State Department is a place you
should not even think about visiting, and required Senior VP approval
to go. Yet, I am sure none of us ever felt in the slightest bit of
danger.

Contrast this with Paris, the data speaks for itself.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   GSM: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj

---

From: Lucy Lynch <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:36:58 -0800 (PST)

> these issues are considered as part of the decision.

In choosing Prague here are the factors I considered:

We had willing and eager local folks who could provide both transit and 
local hands. They are warm, smart, and hardworking folk who traveled to 
San Diego and worked in the NOC there in order to be prepared to help 
host. We knew they understood the IETF, understood the technical
requirements, and really wanted to welcome us to their country.

Thanks go to both CZ.NIC and CESNET:

http://www.nic.cz/en/
http://www.ces.net/

We had a very nice hotel, capable of holding the IETF and the meeting
as a one-roof venue AND it helps meet our Hilton contact threshold.

It's an EU venue and we're loaded with US/NA meetings.

Both hotel costs and flights are reasonable and connections to
the city are pretty good.

We had a host (thanks Neustar!) who was willing to step up to the added 
costs of an EU meeting and they were happy to work with our local transit 
providers.

Factors I didn't anticipate:

- folks with no insurance are tempted to go to a country with
   socialized medicine and never leave, causing said country to
   require proof of insurance from non-citizens
- changes in US passport laws clogging our system

Factors I didn't consider

- pick pockets
- badly behaved taxi drivers

but then, I used to live on the lower east side of New York
(pre-gentrification), so I think every taxi driver is suspect.

- Lucy

---

From: Thierry Ernst <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:54:00 +0100

I have some basic observations:

- for non North-American, that's too many IETF meetings in North
America. The IETF should have a fallback in other places than North
American

- for non North-Americans, there are different criterias for defining
what normality is (I ACK Dave on the other thread for observing this),
and the ability the attend a conference and sleep in a different hotel
- possibly in tens different hotels for all the attendees - is also
something some of us would consider normal. So, it the IETF is unable
to secure a location that corresponds to its criterias, I would think
that the problem is more lying in the selection criterias established
by the IETF rather than the inability for prospective locations to meet
these criterias.

- if the less dangerous cities where to be chosen, I wonder what is
meant by dangerous. Is a city like Paris where you get your wallet
stollen more dangerous than a city like Washington or Los Angeles when
you might have your ... lafe stollen ? 

- if the less dangerous city would have to be chosen based on any
available metric (life threat or theft threat, or whatever), probably
we should consider having meeting in Japan permanently. 

- when are we going to Dubai ? They have great conference centers, and
it's pretty as much accessible from everywhere in the world about
a roughly well-balanced average traveling time for everyone including
Australia (well, kind of ;-)

- it would be nice to know why the prospective locations out of
North-America could not be selected. Just informing the IETF community
of a non-selection is not sufficient. 

- I've heard here and there a lot of critics about the American-centric
IETF organization. Though I do not subscribe at all to these critics, I
do have to recognize that the selection of meeting venues doesn't help
to defend our community against such critics.

- Budget wise, a trip to North-America costs me significantly more than
a trip in Europe (not speaking about the flight cost). And travel wise,
I consider the time spent in airplace as a loss of time (OK, I can read
drafts, but after a couple of hours packed in economy class, I don't
consider this benefical and there is the resulting jet lag). So, we
should definitely share the load of the IETF meeting locations. 

In order to protest, I'm considering not attending one of the
forthcoming 3 IETF meetings to be held in North America. 

Regards,
Thierry

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:38:07 -0500

For those of you with experience in Prague/Czech Republic-
How practical is it to rent a car? 
There are a couple of places outside Prague I would like to visit on the 
weekend (in particular the JAWA Motorcycle Museum of Konopiště, about 20 
miles outside Prague), and I am considering renting a car.

Thanks

Janet

---

From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:57:38 +0200

Ole,
> to go. Yet, I am sure none of us ever felt in the slightest bit of

Right.

Everyone: the IETF is an international organization with participants
around the globe. It is natural that we go to different places. Sometimes
you have to go far, sometimes close. I think we should expect ourselves
to be able to travel to different parts of the developed world, including
places like major cities in EU, North America, or Asia. All of them will
be slightly different, so its good to get some advise about the local
conditions beforehand. But there will be some issues everywhere, be
it pickpockets, taxi drivers, traffic dangers, murder rate in the bad
neighborhoods, heat, cold, or boredom. Get over it. I think we should
boldly go where no IETF has gone before (but millions of other people
have, safely).

Jari

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 22:47:33 -0800

On Mar 7, 2007, at 7:58 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:

> the taxi's are ... unregulated. I would suggest that IETFers never  
> take a cab on the street. You may pay 50 Euros to go 1 km. Get the  
> hotel, store, restaurant, whatever, where you are to order you a  
> cab, and you won't have problems. This is true even if there are  
> cabs waiting just outside where you are

I'd actually take that one step further. You will need to get between  
the hotel and the airport, and that may require a cab. With any luck,  
we will have sandwiches on sale for lunch. For dinner, the Hilton is  
at one end of a beautiful walking city, and one can walk to quite a  
number of good restaurants in under half an hour. I'd take advantage  
of the opportunity.

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:02:17 -0800

On Mar 7, 2007, at 3:57 PM, Jari Arkko wrote:

> I think we should boldly go where no IETF has gone before (but  
> millions of other people have, safely).

I'll agree if I can change the phrase ever so slightly.

I would like to see the IETF meet where IETF participants live. Over  
time, I would expect that to include quite a few places.

When will the IETF meet in Dubai? well, riddle me this. How many IETF  
participants do we have that live in Dubai?

I won't ask how many we have in the Czech Republic :-)

---

From: "Tim Bray" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 23:08:44 -0800

I haven't been following this discussion closely, but in case nobody
else has made the point: the bad news is that the Prague taxi-driver
community is (in my personal experience)  crooked, while on the other
hand Prague public transit is quite efficient.  Last time I was there
I arrived late and paid some taxidriver/pirate a huge sum to get me to
my hotel; I was flying out at a civilized time and figured out how to
take the tram+train combo to get me to the airport at approximately
1/50 of the cost. Also the people on public transit are more
interesting. -Tim

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 03:04:33 -0500

Dear Fred;

On Mar 8, 2007, at 1:47 AM, Fred Baker wrote:

> I'd actually take that one step further. You will need to get  
> between the hotel and the airport, and that may require a cab. With  
> any luck, we will have sandwiches on sale for lunch. For dinner,  
> the Hilton is at one end of a beautiful walking city, and one can  
> walk to quite a number of good restaurants in under half an hour.  
> I'd take advantage of the opportunity.

I did not have the slightest problem at the airport - but I talked to  
the dispatcher.

The one thing I would add is that Wenceslas Square gets a little  
sketchy after midnight and especially after
1 AM. It's like Central Park in NYC - fine during the day, but I  
would avoid on foot late at night.

Marshall

---

From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:11:59 +0200

Hi Fred,

> time, I would expect that to include quite a few places.

Agreed.

> participants do we have that live in Dubai?
My stats [1] do not find any RFC or draft authors from United
Arab Emirates. We might have other participants though. But
as Joel noted, the continent/area may matter more than the
specific city or country. For instance, out of recent thousand
or so RFCs [2],

# 753 RFCs (78.52%) have authors from Usa.
# 398 RFCs (41.50%) have authors from European union.
# 66 RFCs (6.88%) have authors from Canada.
# 49 RFCs (5.11%) have authors from Japan.
# 20 RFCs (2.09%) have authors from Israel.
# 19 RFCs (1.98%) have authors from Australia.
# 16 RFCs (1.67%) have authors from South korea.
# 16 RFCs (1.67%) have authors from India.
# 15 RFCs (1.56%) have authors from Norway.
# 13 RFCs (1.36%) have authors from Switzerland.
# 3 RFCs (0.31%) have authors from Singapore.
# 3 RFCs (0.31%) have authors from Russia.
# 3 RFCs (0.31%) have authors from New zealand.
# 2 RFCs (0.21%) have authors from China.
# 1 RFCs (0.10%) have authors from Chile.
# 1 RFCs (0.10%) have authors from Thailand.
# 1 RFCs (0.10%) have authors from Taiwan.

Which should give you some idea of what the distribution of
meeting locations should be. Of course, you'll get different
numbers depending on what you measure, e.g., mere author
numbers are quite different [3], or if you look at drafts [4]
you'll see that China is a lot more visible than in the above
list; there are 63 drafts with Chinese authors and 73 such
authors. And I'm sure Ray has a breakdown of meeting participants
somewhere, though that tends to be affected significantly by
where we hold the meeting.

Interestingly, if you look at the top ten countries [5] there
are four countries that the IETF has not been during the
ten years that I have been involved. Not that we need to
go everywhere, just a data point -- I know for instance that
in my country the IETF would have problem finding big
enough hotel near the conference facilities.

Jari

[1] http://www.arkko.com/tools/authorstats.html
[2] http://www.arkko.com/tools/recrfcstats/d-countryeudistr.html
[3] http://www.arkko.com/tools/recrfcstats/countryeudistr.html
[4] http://www.arkko.com/tools/stats/d-countryeudistr.html
[5] http://www.arkko.com/tools/stats/d-countrydistr.html

---

From: Stephan Wenger <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:26:32 +0200

Hi janet, all,
Renting a car at the airport, and from an international rental car  
company, is straightforward.  More expensive than in the US, though.   
I cannot advise the budget deals you may get from local companies or  
individuals.  Also keep in mind:

a) cars of a given rental car class are smaller than in the US---much  
smaller---so go for full size minimum if you are 2+ people with  
suitcases.
b) Stickshifts are still very common, especially for the smaller car  
classes.  Make sure to rent an automatic, if you think you need it
c) the Hilton is just outside the inner city and has ample hotel  
parking, so keeping the car there is not an issue.  Forget about  
using the car in the inner city---no spots.  But then, the inner city  
is extended walking distance.
d) Driving in town is similar as in most other European major  
cities---US folks would consider it somewhat aggressive.  But it's  
quite survivable.  Once you leave the immediate vicinity of Prague,  
people drive fast, but safely, and there's not too much traffic.
e) Buy all insurance you can---saves hassle and discussion time in  
case you have a fender bender.

And with respect to the horror stories re taxis:
I have had perhaps 10 taxi rides in the Prague vicinity over the last  
four years.  In this, I had one incident where I driver attempted to  
grossly overcharge me.  I was alone in the cab, but it had stopped at  
my destination, so I simply opened the door, put one foot out, and  
threatened to walk away.  The reaction of the driver was to come down  
with the price, fast.  I'm not a body builder or anything.  This  
stands in contrast to an experience I had in NYC in the late 1980s,  
where I stupidly boarded a grey cab, and found myself and hour later  
in New Jersey, with no money and credit cards whatsoever, and the  
first-time-in-life experience of a gun near my head...  So much about  
common sense when hiring cabs.

Finally, with respect to meeting venues.  I think there's value in  
distinguishing Canada and the US.  Meetings in Canada are typically a  
pleasant experience; decent folks at immigration, reasonable lines,  
reasonable hotel rates and restaurant prices, decent cabbies, ...  I  
can't say all that for US meetings.  And I carry a German passport.   
Colleagues of mine, who are very good technologists and would be an  
asset for IETF face to face discussions are not even considering  
attending US IETF meetings, because they are at the disadvantage of  
being born in a predominantly muslim country...  So that would be a  
factor to consider as well.

Regards,
Stephan

On Mar 7, 2007, at 8:38 PM, Janet P Gunn wrote:

> There are a couple of places outside Prague I would like to visit  
> on the weekend (in particular the JAWA Motorcycle Museum of  
> Konopiště, about 20 miles outside Prague), and I am considering  
> renting a car.
>
> Thanks
>
> Janet
>
>
> once

---

From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 09:37:48 +0100

Jari Arkko wrote:
> [...]
> [...]

Gee.  Perhaps the ITU could host an IETF?

;-)

---

From: Lakshminath Dondeti <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:23:23 -0800

Agree with you Jari!  I went to OMA meetings for about a year and every 
month I packed up and went to a different corner of the world, including 
La Jolla, some 5 miles from my house ;) (I didn't pack up for that trip!).

I didn't even have the time to look up whether a particular city was 
this or that.  There were cities where I didn't leave the hotel and 
there were cities where I spent a good amount of time as a tourist. 
Each location was chosen based on some selection criteria (and we went 
through the exercise of selection criteria not too long in the IETF) or 
because one of the member companies has an office in the city.

We went to Helsinki too and met in a small basement ;) .  I don't mind 
going back there (not to the basement, but to Finland).

I think it was in Sydney, the immigration officer asked for my business 
card  (I happened to have some in my bag; OMA needs them).  Now if that 
happened to 10 IETF attendees, I can't imagine the traffic on this list! 
  A whole continent might be blacklisted!

Now why the rant about OMA (or fill some other standards development 
organization there)?  Turns out they are all engineers too and by many 
assessments at the IETF, not really good ones even.  If they can go 
places, we should be able to as well!

Hope the IETF meets in India in the near future!  All our cities have 
the issues: pickpockets, taxi drivers, traffic dangers, murder rate in 
the bad neighborhoods, heat, cold, or boredom.  Scratch the last one! 
There is no boredom when everything is an adventure, and India will be 
an adventure for the IETF crowd!

cheers,
Lakshminath

---

From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:53:27 +0000

> problems and never felt unsafe.

I second that.  The metro system was excellent; it would be interesting
to know what the closest stop to the hotel is on the metro map:
http://www.dpp.cz/download/schema-metra-v-praze.pdf

Tim

---

From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:00:42 +0100

Tim Chown writes:
>>  I visited Prague about two years ago and had the same experience as 
>>  Ed. I traveled via the Metro and on foot, visited all the tourist 
>>  traps; had no problems and never felt unsafe.
>
> I second that.  The metro system was excellent; it would be 
> interesting to know what the closest stop to the hotel is on the 
> metro map: http://www.dpp.cz/download/schema-metra-v-praze.pdf

Florenc. Really close to the holte. For those wishing to get to the 
hotel by public transport: Florenc is one of the hubs right in the 
middle of the map.

Arnt

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:20:32 +0100

> I won't ask how many we have in the Czech Republic :-)

But we have a few hundred for whom it's a short flight
and part of the same political and socio-economic block.

     Brian

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:05:11 -0500

Hello;

> Konopiště, about 20 miles outside Prague), and I am considering  

I have rented a car in Prague and driven into the country (and, for  
that matter, out of it). Driving in the country can be very  
enjoyable, although the roads tend to be narrow.

I would suggest you watch out for the country limitations on your car  
rental. If you want to
go outside the EU, get the appropriate rental. If your rental does  
not cover some country, do not
take it there. Customs agents will ask to see the contract and can  
and do impound cars taken outside the rental coverage area.

Regards
Marshall

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:37:45 -0500

Stephan,

Thanks.  Just what I needed.  Comments in line.

Stephan Wenger <[email-masked]> wrote on 03/08/2007 03:26:32 AM:

> company, is straightforward.  More expensive than in the US, 
> though.  I cannot advise the budget deals you may get from local 
> companies or individuals.  Also keep in mind:
>  
> a) cars of a given rental car class are smaller than in the US---
> much smaller---so go for full size minimum if you are 2+ people 
withsuitcases.

I'll just be one person, without suitcases.

My idea of a "small car" is the one I drove in college- a 500cc 2-stroke 
Berkeley, which seated two as long as neither of you were overweight. My 
most usual request at a US car rental counter is "don't you have anything 
smaller?"

> classes.  Make sure to rent an automatic, if you think you need it

No thanks.  I MUCH PREFER a manual transmission, and drive one every day 
(Nissan Sentra).

> using the car in the inner city---no spots.  But then, the inner 
> city is extended walking distance.

Yes- my only intention was to use a rental car for one or two "day trips" 
outside the city. 
I'd use public transport if convenient- the guide book says "bus from 
Florenc in Prague"- but I have no idea if that is two busses a day (not 
convenient) or every hour (fine), nor how far the museum is from the bus 
stop.  I have emailed the museum director, and got a response which 
indicated that
-the email worked
-he read and wrote English
- he would get back to me with more detail later.

But "later" hasn't happened yet.  I need to "ping" him again.

> people drive fast, but safely, and there's not too much traffic.

I have driven in Western Europe- most recently my husband and I drove 
around north western France immediately before the Paris meeting.  Is it 
similar.

> case you have a fender bender.

Thanks.  That I would not have thought of.

> I have had perhaps 10 taxi rides in the Prague vicinity over the 
> last four years.  In this, I had one incident where I driver 
> attempted to grossly overcharge me.  I was alone in the cab, but it 
> had stopped at my destination, so I simply opened the door, put one 
> foot out, and threatened to walk away.  The reaction of the driver 
> was to come down with the price, fast.  I'm not a body builder or 
> anything.  This stands in contrast to an experience I had in NYC in 
> the late 1980s, where I stupidly boarded a grey cab, and found 
> myself and hour later in New Jersey, with no money and credit cards 
> whatsoever, and the first-time-in-life experience of a gun near my 
> head...  So much about common sense when hiring cabs.

My only experience with a gun near my head was in a parking garage on 
Capitol Hill in Washington DC, in the block between the House Office 
Building 2 and the Police Station.  But I got away with only giving him my 
money.  I held onto my credit cards and, more importantly, my green card ( 
I carry a UK passport, though I have lived in the US since '59).

> distinguishing Canada and the US.  Meetings in Canada are typically 
> a pleasant experience; decent folks at immigration, reasonable 
> lines, reasonable hotel rates and restaurant prices, decent cabbies,
> ...  I can't say all that for US meetings.  And I carry a German 
> passport.  Colleagues of mine, who are very good technologists and 
> would be an asset for IETF face to face discussions are not even 
> considering attending US IETF meetings, because they are at the 
> disadvantage of being born in a predominantly muslim country...  So 
> that would be a factor to consider as well.

In the late 50s (Suez crisis) we lived in Canada,  but crossed into the US 
quite frequently.  My father very often got "special attention" (as in 
"Please park the car and come into the office") because his British 
passport showed that he was born in Cairo, Egypt. (HIS father was an 
Egyptologist.)

Thanks,

Janet
> There are a couple of places outside Prague I would like to visit on
> the weekend (in particular the JAWA Motorcycle Museum of Konopiště, 
> about 20 miles outside Prague), and I am considering renting a car. 
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> Janet
> 
>

---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 06:27:17 -0800

> From: Fred Baker [mailto:[email-masked]] 

> I would like to see the IETF meet where IETF participants 
> live. Over time, I would expect that to include quite a few places.
> 
> When will the IETF meet in Dubai? well, riddle me this. How 
> many IETF participants do we have that live in Dubai?
> 

Speaking for the anti-phishing community I can assure you that we are constantly impressed by the interesting technical contributions that are made on a daily basis by inhabitants of the formerly Soviet dominated countries of Eastern Europe.

---

From: Elwyn Davies <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:40:51 +0000

> http://www.dpp.cz/download/schema-metra-v-praze.pdf
+1
The nearest metro is Florenc. The nearest exit (Sokolovská) is about 
250m from the Hilton Hotel.
http://www.csl.cz/en/site/klient/sluzby_kontakty/doprava_na_letiste/do_mhd.htm 
has suggestions for airport to city centre via bus and metro
Bus to ZLIČÍN followed by metro to Florenc looks convenient.

/Elwyn

/Elwyn

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:35:48 -0500

John,
Thank you for your feedback.
We will take the following actions to address your concerns:
We will review appropriate government sites and leading travel guides 
during the venue qualification process and selection.  We will also 
provide links to those sites when we announce venues in the future so 
the community can investigate further and take appropriate precuations.

We established meeting email lists in Montreal (not without a few bumps) 
and meeting wikis in San Diego.  We will continue to improve and use 
those to provide information to the community and to encourage the 
community to use them to inform themselves. 

The 68Commons Wiki is at  http://community.ietf.org/wiki/

One can subscribe to the 68 Attendees mailing list at:: 
www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/68attendees

Your comments are constructive and inspire us to raise our game.  I know 
I will hear from you if we haven't.

Warm regards,

Ray
IAD

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:08:57 -0500

Ray,

--On Friday, 09 March, 2007 09:35 -0500 Ray Pelletier
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> We will review appropriate government sites and leading travel
> guides during the venue qualification process and selection.
> We will also provide links to those sites when we announce
> venues in the future so the community can investigate further
> and take appropriate precuations.

This will be very helpful.  

As I have suggested in another context, I would encourage you
and the IASA apparatus to consider, on a case-by-case basis,
whether going even a bit further might not be in order.  For
example, while I would not have expected the Secretariat to
round up a Ducks or equivalent vehicles to ferry people across
unexpected lakes and rivers (formerly believed to be roads) in
Dallas, I would expect you to consider IETF-specific
arrangements for airport <-> hotel transport when that seems
justified by circumstances and can be predicted in advance.
Such arrangements need not be a big deal: if meeting hotels are
willing to make transport arrangements for attendees (as is
apparently the case here), you might figure out a way to
announce that and the way to make arrangements, as an option.
If some taxi or shuttle operation appears, on your
investigation, to have a particularly good reputation, you might
consult with them and recommend them explicitly (with or without
arrangements for some "IETF rate" or other accommodation).
Those are the sorts of things that "the community" cannot, in
general, do for itself -- the job has to be done by either the
local people or the IASA.

I don't think what I'm looking for is especially demanding or
out of line with normal arrangements for large meetings, but I
do think it is likely to be increasingly important as we have
IETF participants from an increasing number of locations and we
recognize that with meetings in those locations.
 
>...
> Your comments are constructive and inspire us to raise our
> game.  I know I will hear from you if we haven't.

Thanks.  And, yes, indeed -- someone has to play the curmudgeon
role around here :-)

    best regards,
      john

---

From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 22:22:27 +0200

John, Ray,

> For
> Dallas, 

:-)

> I would expect you to consider IETF-specific
> And, yes, indeed -- someone has to play the curmudgeon
> role around here :-)
>   

I too would be interested in seeing information in the IETF meeting
page about, say, hotel's transportation service when it exists and
can be recommended. Or a warning about unreliable taxis. John's
list of things to consider when setting up the  meetings was also
great.

However, I wanted to play the role of the guy who reminds us
of the IETF's mission. We're in the Internet technology business...
other people are in transport etc. businesses. For instance, one
would expect that the IETF goes to major cities with nearby
major airports. These places tend to have multiple working
forms of transportation, and a demonstrated ability of millions
of people to get through the system... as Laksminath noted, even
the OMA engineers can figure this out :-) Not sure we really NEED
a lot of help from Ray to get from the airport to the hotel, except
occasional recommendation of what transport to use. And I have
heard that that thing which starts with an "I" can be used to find
information.

Generalizing this a bit, lets not constrain ourselves too much
by setting too high requirements on what the IETF
meeting sites and organization must fulfill. I think we
could survive location-wise in any of the big cities in
the industrial world, assuming hotel etc. availability.
Visa and travel cost situations differ, but for that I
think it better to go around a little bit to spread the pain.

And I think Ray is already treating us too well in
the meetings :-)

Jari

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:07:25 -0500

--On Friday, 09 March, 2007 22:22 +0200 Jari Arkko
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>...
> I too would be interested in seeing information in the IETF
> meeting page about, say, hotel's transportation service when
> it exists and can be recommended. Or a warning about
> unreliable taxis. John's list of things to consider when
> setting up the  meetings was also great.

We appear to be in agreement on the principle, and more or less
in agreement that the IASA should be taking a little more
responsibility for getting site-specific information and getting
it into circulation.  If that is the case -- and I infer from
Ray's note that it is -- then I have accomplished all I set out
to do here.  I'm happy to turn details back over to him, the
IAOC, and the Secretariat.

> of the IETF's mission. We're in the Internet technology
> business... other people are in transport etc. businesses. For
> instance, one would expect that the IETF goes to major cities
> with nearby major airports. These places tend to have multiple
> working forms of transportation, and a demonstrated ability of
> millions of people to get through the system... as Laksminath
> noted, even the OMA engineers can figure this out :-) Not sure
> we really NEED a lot of help from Ray to get from the airport
> to the hotel, except occasional recommendation of what
> transport to use. And I have heard that that thing which
> starts with an "I" can be used to find information.

A slightly different view involves turning this around.  We are
in the Internet technology business, not the "showing the flag
and holding meetings in exotic places" business.  My expectation
is that we meet in places where we can get work done (a category
into which I'm sure Prague falls) and that, having chosen a
location, IASA/the Secretariat does everything feasible to make
certain that we can get work done in that location without
having to deal with  any preventable distractions and
side-issues.  Whether the side-issues turn out to be "no stable
network until Tuesday", or "no hot water in the rooms", or
"inability to absorb enough caffeine (or beer) to function", or
"no way for the vegetarians among us to eat", or "no realistic
plan for 1000+ people to all eat lunch at the same time, or "you
had better not put your laptop down and walk away, even for a
minute", I expect those who pick the site to have considered the
issues in their choice and to consider that taking some
responsibility for them is part of their role.  That "taking
responsibility" might be as minor as getting a little extra
information.  But the goal should be that we can concentrate on
the technical work with as undesirable few distractions as
possible, no matter how colorful or interesting.

And, for the record, I feel exactly the same way about those
issues whether we are meeting in Minneapolis, Chicago,
Vancouver, Paris, Yokohama, Prague, or on the moon (although, if
the IASA selects a meeting site there, I'd expect them to warn
people about breathing and to make some special efforts to
investigate charter flights).  

You will recall that getting that administrative/ organizational
work off the plate of the IESG and the community generally was a
key part of why the IASA was created.  Well, this is part of it.

> think it better to go around a little bit to spread the pain.

This slides over into the question of meeting site selection and
criteria.  Different topic, I think.

> And I think Ray is already treating us too well in

I think this is the cue for someone to say something about
cookies :-).  Another separate topic.

    john

---

From: Martin Mares <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:54:25 +0100

Hello!

> already and suffered no ill effects and was not robbed.  I.e., don't 

I live in Prague for about 30 years and it's generally a very safe city.
Most streets are completely safe even during night. There are only two
things you should be careful about:

  (1) the taxicab drivers -- not all of them are honest and if they smell
      a chance, they are likely to ask for several times more than they
      have right to. However, taxis arranged by airport desks or hotel
      receptions are safe and there is also a company providing taxi
      at a phone call for reasonable prices. Also, the public transport
      in Prague works very well and once you are in the city center,
      everything is within a couple of footsteps.

  (2) the pickpockets -- during the tourist seasons, it's advisable to
      watch your wallet, especially in crowded streets and full trams,
      but that's probably the same in every large city.

				Have a nice fortnight
-- 
Martin `MJ' Mares                          <[email-masked]>   http://mj.ucw.cz/
Faculty of Math and Physics, Charles University, Prague, Czech Rep., Earth
"C++: an octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog." -- Steve Taylor

---

From: Martin Mares <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:54:25 +0100

Hello!

				Have a nice fortnight

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 23:14:49 -0800

> I won't ask how many we have in the Czech Republic :-)

For much of central europe it's just a commute...

---

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:37:43 -0400

Arriving early to CZ, I chose this option. It was easy to do (I called
the Hilton and spoke with the concierge), and it was certainly one less
thing to worry about once I got here.

	Tony Hansen
	[email-masked]

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:08:52 -0700

Is anyone familiar with the smoking situation in Prague?  Since 
unfortunately I'm extremely allergic to tobacco smoke, I need to find 
restaurants that are actually smoke-free (as opposed to the more 
common ones which attempt to defy the laws of physics by designating 
a few tables as magically non-smoking).

There are a few web sites I've found, but I have no idea where the 
listed restaurants are in relation to the hotel or to anything else, 
if they are still around, etc.

What I've found is:

smoke free czech republic: <http://www.smokefreeworld.com/cz.shtml>

<http://www.dokurte.cz/index.php?stranka=nekuracke_restaurace&hledat=ano&zarizeni_nazev=&zarizeni_adresa=praha>

<http://www.dokurte.cz/index.php?lang=en>

Also, this blog ("No Smoking in Prague? Yeah, right") is interesting: 
<http://www.prague-spot.com/blog/article/192/no-smoking-in-prague-yeah-right>
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
The brain is a wonderful organ; it starts working the moment you get
up in the morning, and does not stop until you get to work.
                                                      --Robert Frost

---

From: Adam Roach <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:12:42 -0500

I'm not sure how helpful this is, but the email sent by the Hilton has 
the following boilerplate attached:

> CZECHOUSE GRILL & ROTISSERIE 
> The only fine-dining non-smoking restaurant in Prague!
> Open for lunch on weekdays from noon till 3 PM
> Open for dinner daily from 6 PM till 11 PM
> For reservations call +420 224 842 700 
> or e-mail: [email-masked] 

Presumably, this is the hotel restaurant.

/a

Randall Gellens wrote:
> common ones which attempt to defy the laws of physics by designating a 
> few tables as magically non-smoking).
>