Subject: RE: NATs as firewalls

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:10:53 -0000

> Can you show me real examples of an RIR repossessing address 
> space?  If 
> so, what is stopping them from reclaiming some of those /8s?

ARIN regularly repossesses address space according to their treasurer.
http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/ppml/2007-March/006129.html
This fact is well known to those who regularly attend ARIN meetings and
hear the reports on ARIN activities.

MIT does keep its ARIN whois records updated, for instance Jeffrey
Schiller who is the technical contact for 18/8 as well as MIT, last
updated his contact info in 2001.
http://ws.arin.net/whois/?queryinput=!%20JIS-ARIN

The organization record was last updated in 2003.
http://ws.arin.net/whois/?queryinput=O%20!%20MIT-2

Apparently MIT is not hiding from ARIN. In any case, MIT does have a
legitimate claim to 18/8 due to the fact that its Laboratory for
Computer Science was one of the research organizations on the ARPANET
that participated in the development of the new internetwork protocol.
At that time, the LCS network was assigned network number 18. Over time,
this internetwork protocol became IPv4 and the network numbers turned
into /8 CIDR blocks. RFC 739 may be of interest if you don't believe me.

In any case, none of the RIRs reclaim addresses from organizations who
appear to be operating IP networks which appear to have a technical
justification for their address allocation. Since IPv4 addresses are not
yet in short supply, there is not yet any formal move to audit existing
blocks, whether from RFC 739 or from more recent RIR allocations. There
is a proposal making the rounds, but it's poorly written and highly
unlikely to get any traction.

So to answer your question about what is stopping the RIRs from
reclaiming the very earliest /8 allocations, it isn't yet worth the
bother. Some of them have been returned voluntarily as you can see if
you compare http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space with RFC
739.

--Michael Dillon

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From: David Morris <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:31:40 -0800 (PST)

So I got curious and checked the 'current' list. Looks to me like the
question revolving around MIT is small potatoes compared with some
other organizations ... HP now owns two /8 blocks ... their own and DECs.

A bunch of IANA reserved ... which seem likely to be available.

I'd bet more than 3/4ths of the space allocated to specific organizations
as /8s could be recovered. If that needs to happen, the sooner the current
owners of those blocks start planning, the easier it will be.

Those who speculated that MIT had a fundraising opportunity neglected
to comment on the competition.

Dave Morris

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 [email-masked] wrote:

>...

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:46:34 +0000

> other organizations ... HP now owns two /8 blocks ... their own and DECs.

	HP is down a total of four /8's from the early days.
	Including the /8 they picked up from DEC.

> A bunch of IANA reserved ... which seem likely to be available.

	One would expect the IANA reserved blocks (that are actually
	useful) will be handed to the RIRs as per current policy.

> owners of those blocks start planning, the easier it will be.

	been there, done that.  times and circumstances change and
	recovery these days is likely an exercise is futility.
	
	the -LARGEST- assumption that most folks make is that if they 
	can't see a prefix in their tiny, constrained view of the Internet's
	routing system (e.g. a subset of the commodity users of IP) that
	said prefix is fair game for recovery - to be re-assigned to folks
	that they can see through their routing porthole.  That assumption
	has always proven false ...

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From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:55:55 +0100

David Morris writes:
> I'd bet more than 3/4ths of the space allocated to specific 
> organizations as /8s could be recovered. If that needs to happen, the 
> sooner the current owners of those blocks start planning, the easier 
> it will be.

Recovering three-quarters of an /8 delays the moment of truth by less 
than a month. Work hard and you might gain a year or even more, but 
would that year really make a difference?

Arnt

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From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:10:42 +0100

> hear the reports on ARIN activities.

I think there is a difference between repossession and surrender.  Yes, 
ARIN has policies on the books that nominally cover this case, but quite 
frankly they can't enforce those policies because they are not the SP 
who is taking money from a customer.  And so a market can and does exist 
for IPv4 address space, albeit not in the open.  I say this having 
acquired a company  in which we viewed their space as an asset, and 
promptly appropriated it for other uses.

Eliot