Subject: Gender diversity in engineering

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 15:40:47 -0500

There have been some good numbers floated on recent threads, but at 
least for me, they aren't enough to gain a complete (or nearly 
complete) picture of the issue.

Having studied statistics, we need to know a starting point, and look 
for the reductions (or increases) from that point forward. Starting 
in high school is not sufficiently refined enough, as there are a lot 
that take advanced math (personally I'd start with trig - because 
that kicked my ass - but rarely is it its own class, so let's start 
with calculus 1) that don't go into engineering. Thus, high school is 
probably not a good place to measure from. Therefore, it needs to be college.

We need to know

% of class (based on year started) that is female in engineering
    (do we want to start with electrical and CS to
     be more applicable to our situation?)

We'll call that percent 'X'

then

%X of drops from engineering (BS) (or just elec/CS?) over the college 
years before graduation?

then

%X that enter workforce after BS in Engineering (or just elec/CS?) 
into the engineering field?

then

%X that start graduate school (MS) in engineering (or just elec/CS)?

%X that receive MS degree in engineering (or just elec/CS)?

%X that enter workforce after MS in Engineering (or just elec/CS?) 
into the engineering field?

then

%X that start doctoral school (PhD.) in engineering (or just elec/CS)?

%X that achieve PhD. in engineering (or just elec/CS)?

then

%X that enter workforce after PhD in Engineering (or just elec/CS?) 
into the engineering field?

This will likely track those that are entering the engineering 
workforce, and with what level of education. From that point in the 
analysis - we can attempt to track at what point there are further 
drops out of the engineering workforce by women (i.e., after how many 
years). Or is it as simple as problems after childbirth to reenter 
the workforce (for whatever reason).

As an example, if there is a significant difference from those that 
drop out after their BS from those that drop out MS, then maybe 
something should be done to encourage women to stay for the MS.

comments or questions?

James

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 19:08:22 -0400

But that leaves out all of us that started off in a different (technical) 
field (Math and OR in my case) and ended up here..

Janet

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From:   "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
To:     IETF-Discussion list <[email-masked]>
Date:   05/01/2012 04:40 PM
Subject:        Gender diversity in engineering
Sent by:        [email-masked]

probably not a good place to measure from. Therefore, it needs to be 
college.

We need to know

then

then

then

then

then

comments or questions?

James

---

From: Cameron Byrne <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 17:49:51 -0700

Furthermore, is rigorous academic STEM  education highly correlated with
whatever it is you are trying to measure ?

CB

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college.

---

From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 05:20:50 -0400

NSF has a ton of information on this for the U.S. population.  I'm too lazy right now to dig it up, but it is there.

On May 1, 2012, at 4:40 PM, James M. Polk wrote:

> There have been some good numbers floated on recent threads, but at least for me, they aren't enough to gain a complete (or nearly complete) picture of the issue.
> 
> Having studied statistics, we need to know a starting point, and look for the reductions (or increases) from that point forward. Starting in high school is not sufficiently refined enough, as there are a lot that take advanced math (personally I'd start with trig - because that kicked my ass - but rarely is it its own class, so let's start with calculus 1) that don't go into engineering. Thus, high school is probably not a good place to measure from. Therefore, it needs to be college.
> 
> We need to know
> 
> %X of drops from engineering (BS) (or just elec/CS?) over the college years before graduation?
> 
> then
> 
> %X that enter workforce after BS in Engineering (or just elec/CS?) into the engineering field?
> 
> then
> 
> %X that enter workforce after MS in Engineering (or just elec/CS?) into the engineering field?
> 
> then
> 
> %X that enter workforce after PhD in Engineering (or just elec/CS?) into the engineering field?
> 
> This will likely track those that are entering the engineering workforce, and with what level of education. From that point in the analysis - we can attempt to track at what point there are further drops out of the engineering workforce by women (i.e., after how many years). Or is it as simple as problems after childbirth to reenter the workforce (for whatever reason).
> 
> As an example, if there is a significant difference from those that drop out after their BS from those that drop out MS, then maybe something should be done to encourage women to stay for the MS.
> 
> comments or questions?
> 
> James
>

---

From: Allison Mankin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 11:22:01 -0400

A good URL for the NSF statistics:

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/wmpd/

Also, there's extensive information and analysis about the
educational pipeline in the US (for all groups, and including K12) in
the 2010 American Association of University Women report "Why So Few?"

www.aauw.org/learn/research/upload/whysofew.pdf

I'd be interested to learn of studies of the CS workforce outside the
US.  Are there recruitment and attrition problems everywhere?

Allison

---

From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 11:30:09 -0400

> From: Allison Mankin [[email-masked]]
> 

I've seen reports in the popular press that the fraction of women
entering software is higher in many Asian countries than in the US, so
presumably there is solid information to that extent.

I've heard anecdotes that the fraction of women in software in Israel
is much higher than in the US.

Dale

---

From: Yoav Nir <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 00:20:39 +0300

> is much higher than in the US.

Around 30%-40%. I don't have hard numbers, but I have a feeling that it has gone down a bit in the last 10 years. One of my tasks is to give a monthly "VPN basics" talk to new recruits, and women seem to be about 1 in 4. This could be specific to my company, though.

Yoav

---

From: Yaakov Stein <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 10:12:40 +0000

> Around 30%-40%. I don't have hard numbers, 
> but I have a feeling that it has gone down a bit in the last 10 years. 

Yoav, 

Your feelings are quite accurate as to the range,
but less so regarding the trend.
According to a recent study, 35.6% of high-tech employees in Israel are women,
and this percentage has been relatively stable for the past 10 years.

Women make up 47.5% of all employees with academic credentials (as of 2010) in all sectors,
so high-tech is actually comparatively under-represented.
On the other hand, only 32.9% of managerial positions (in all sectors)
are occupied by women.

Y(J)S

---

From: Yoav Nir <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:01:33 +0300

> On the other hand, only 32.9% of managerial positions (in all sectors)

I can believe that. It could be specific to Check Point. OTOH there are those companies with departments where only women work. That could be keeping the balance.

Yoav