Subject: Mailing list membership.

From: Khaled Omar <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 18:40:11 +0000

Hi all,

This is the second time to receive an e-mail containing the following :

"Your membership in the mailing list ietf has been disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 23-Feb-2017.  You will not get any more messages from this list until you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 2 more reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted."

I don't know whom should I contact for this issue, but I want to be a member on the mailing list even if my first draft is not discussed anymore but maybe I will find some interesting topics in the future.

Also, where can I find the list of topics that will be discussed at the IETF 98 so I can be prepared for it to participate as much as I can, such conversations will be useful for all.

Best Regards,

Khaled Omar

---

From: S Moonesamy <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 12:48:57 -0800

Hi Khaled,
At 10:40 26-02-2017, Khaled Omar wrote:
>"Your membership in the mailing list ietf has been disabled due to 
>excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 
>23-Feb-2017.  You will not get any more messages from this list 
>until you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 2 more 
>reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted."
>
>I don't know whom should I contact for this issue, but I want to be 
>a member on the mailing list even if my first draft is not discussed 
>anymore but maybe I will find some interesting topics in the future.

Your email service provider is rejecting mail from the IETF mail 
server.  I suggest contacting your email service provider to find out 
whether its service can be used to receive emails from IETF mailing lists.

>Also, where can I find the list of topics that will be discussed at 
>the IETF 98 so I can be prepared for it to participate as much as I 
>can, such conversations will be useful for all.

There is a meeting agenda at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda/

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

---

From: willi uebelherr <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 19:19:13 -0300

Dear S Moonesamy,

the first action have to come from the ietf-discuss admin group and not 
from Khalid. The admin group have to analyse the bounce-counter for all 
list members.

Khalid use hotmail. A big MS shit. But this is the second task.

many greetings, willi

On 26/02/2017 17:48, S Moonesamy wrote:
>> 23-Feb-2017.  You will not get any more messages from this list until
>> you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 2 more reminders like
>> this before your membership in the list is deleted."
>>
>> I don't know whom should I contact for this issue, but I want to be a
>> member on the mailing list even if my first draft is not discussed

---

From: "John Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 27 Feb 2017 04:38:55 -0000

In article <[email-masked]> you write:
>"Your membership in the mailing list ietf has been disabled due to excessive
>bounces

This is the DMARC problem that has been discussed at length here.

It's a pain, it stinks, we're working on it.

R's,
John

---

From: willi uebelherr <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 02:11:46 -0300

Dear Andrew,

John Levine told us another story. And i know it from some other maillist.

For Khalid it will be immpossible to analyse, what is going on with some 
emails in some specific situation. Only in the log file of the MTA you 
can see it. But this is not possible for Khalid, or?

I don't know, if you are member in the admin group. And i don't know, if 
John is member in the admin group. Independent, this group have to start 
the process of analyse.

But John wrote, they work long time for that. And it is absolutly true, 
"It's a pain, it stinks,...". I wish you to find the real bug.

many greetings, willi

On 26/02/2017 22:18, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 07:19:13PM -0300, willi uebelherr wrote:
>>
>> the first action have to come from the ietf-discuss admin group and not from
>> Khalid. The admin group have to analyse the bounce-counter for all list
>> members.
>
> No.  Khalid's mail bounced something that came from the ietf mail
> list, and it came to his mail because he was subscribed to that mail
> list.  And therefore, the question is why his configuration is
> bouncing things from the ietf mail server.  And that determination can
> only be made at his end.
>
> A
>

---

From: willi uebelherr <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 14:10:51 -0300

Dear Khaled,

there are many speculations like that from Andrew Sullivan. The core is, 
they don't understand the real situation and create big clouds about 
nothing.

Independent, what e-mail service you use, the MTA of the maillist server 
installation have to distribute the emails. And if he can't do it, the 
people with access to the log-files have to look for, why the MTA is not 
able to distribute.

I am not sure, but i think, you are a subscriber in the list and have no 
access to the systemfiles. Therefore, the admin group have to do it. It 
is her job. Not yours.

many greetings, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

On 27/02/2017 11:37, Khaled Omar wrote:
>> For Khalid it will be immpossible to analyse, what is going on with some emails in some specific situation. Only in the log file of the MTA you can see it. But this is not possible for Khalid, or?
>
> I think so, because I'm using a free e-mail service and don't have on-premise server, so I have to keep re-enabling my subscription for this sensitive situation.
>
> Khaled
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of willi uebelherr
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 7:12 AM
> To: IETF discussion
> Subject: Re: Mailing list membership.
>
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> For Khalid it will be immpossible to analyse, what is going on with some emails in some specific situation. Only in the log file of the MTA you can see it. But this is not possible for Khalid, or?
>
> I don't know, if you are member in the admin group. And i don't know, if John is member in the admin group. Independent, this group have to start the process of analyse.
>
> But John wrote, they work long time for that. And it is absolutly true, "It's a pain, it stinks,...". I wish you to find the real bug.
>
> many greetings, willi
>
>
>>> the first action have to come from the ietf-discuss admin group and
>>> not from Khalid. The admin group have to analyse the bounce-counter
>>> for all list members.
>>

---

From: willi uebelherr <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 17:36:11 -0300

Dear Khaled,

you wrote:
"... but don't forget that this is a repeating issue ..."

I agree with that and therefore, never i will move in a private space 
outside of the list. This is a administration question for the list. And 
all list members need the possibility to read our discussion. Only then 
the other members in the list can participate and explain her experience.

Maybe, there are more poeple with pracitical experience with mailman and 
his modules. But the first step is always to open the discussion and 
stop the private hidden spaces.

many greetings, willi

On 27/02/2017 14:33, Khaled Omar wrote:
> Hi Willi,
>
>> I am not sure, but i think, you are a subscriber in the list and have no access to the systemfiles. Therefore, the admin group have to do it. It is her job. Not yours.
>
> That's correct, but don't forget that this is a repeating issue and as we see it happens for all people who comes to the IETF and uses ind. e-mails so facilities from the admins should be occurred to be easy for all to receive e-mails from other subscribers, we should stand up and solve it.
>
> Khaled
>
> From: willi uebelherr [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 7:11 PM
> To: IETF discussion
> Cc: Khaled Omar
> there are many speculations like that from Andrew Sullivan. The core is, they don't understand the real situation and create big clouds about nothing.
>
> Independent, what e-mail service you use, the MTA of the maillist server installation have to distribute the emails. And if he can't do it, the people with access to the log-files have to look for, why the MTA is not able to distribute.
>
> I am not sure, but i think, you are a subscriber in the list and have no access to the systemfiles. Therefore, the admin group have to do it. It is her job. Not yours.
>
> many greetings, willi
> Asuncion, Paraguay
>
>
>>> bouncing things from the ietf mail server.  And that determination
>>> can only be made at his end.
>>>
>>> A
>>>
>>
>>
>

---

From: S Moonesamy <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 12:29:29 -0800

Hi Willi,
>not from Khalid. The admin group have to analyse the bounce-counter 

The above is different from the suggestion which I made [1].  I took 
into consideration an issue [2] affecting this IETF mailing list when 
I wrote the message [1].  I prefer not to jump to hasty conclusions 
when there wasn't any information to show that the problem 
encountered by the subscriber is related to the issue [2].

I happen to be one of the facilitators for this mailing list.  That 
is why I replied to the subscriber on a Sunday.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg101762.html
2. There were several threads in 2016 about that issue.

---

From: Theodore Ts'o <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 00:18:43 -0500

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 05:36:11PM -0300, willi uebelherr wrote:
> outside of the list. This is a administration question for the list. And all
> list members need the possibility to read our discussion. Only then the
> other members in the list can participate and explain her experience.
> 
> Maybe, there are more poeple with pracitical experience with mailman and his
> modules. But the first step is always to open the discussion and stop the
> private hidden spaces.

Or, people who are using broken, non-standards compliant mail systems
can move to ones which are compatible with internet mailing lists....

    	    	       	   	      	   - Ted

---

From: willi uebelherr <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 17:29:24 -0300

On 28/02/2017 02:18, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> ...

Dear Theodore,

related to the problem, what Khaled explained, what is your proposal?

What are your "compatible with internet mailing lists" mail systems?

Yahoo and Hotmail are not "compatible", or?

Mailman never change the "From"-header. Therefore, the From-Header 
always points to the author of the email. What you think, is that the 
correct, compatible way? I think, yes.

many greetings, willi

---

From: Theodore Ts'o <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 23:49:37 -0500

> What are your "compatible with internet mailing lists" mail systems?

RFC 2821, Simple Mail Transfer Protocol, section 3.10.2

   "To expand a list, the recipient mailer replaces the
   pseudo-mailbox address in the envelope with all of the expanded
   addresses.  The return address in the envelope is changed so that all
   error messages generated by the final deliveries will be returned to
   a list administrator, not to the message originator, who generally
   has no control over the contents of the list and will typically find
   error messages annoying."

This is the SMTP Envelope From field.  The FROM field is not changed,
but the SMTP return address is changed, so that bounces go to the
mailing list administrator as opposed to the person who sends mail to
the mailing list.

Unfortunately, if you are using a system whose domain requests that
all recipients enforce DMARC alignment, this specifically instructs
recipients to bounce mail if the SMTP Envelope return address doesn't
match the FROM field in the header.  This means that they won't see
mailing list mail as defined by the IETF Standards Track RFC 2821,
which specifically says that is acceptable (and in fact a good thing)
to change the SMTP envelope return address so that bounces (caused by
people changing where they work, etc.) go to an administrator who can
deal with them.  But if the mailing list administrators gets too may
bounces, and it's because the sending domain is requesting that mail
be bounced, the only thing they can do is to unsubscribe the sender or
the recipient.

Hence mailing list systems that enforce DMARC, or request DMARC
processing, are fundamentally incompatible with mailing lists as
defined by section 3.10.2 of RFC 2821.

If you want to participate in such mailing list, one of the best ways
is to change to a mailing list system that doesn't do DMARC.

Best regards,

						- Ted