Subject: Harald...Deans Suspension

From: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:27:43 -0700

Harald - I understand that you object to Deans (and my) views and politics but silcensikng dissenting opinions becuase you are offended at the effort of having to ignore them is pretty petty. Its also pretty common for the IETF it appears since you personally did this to me as well.

I suggest that it is not in the IETF's best interests to continue with the PR process and propose formally rescinding it and terminating the suspensions prior to the matter escalating to a place that's painful and wasteful for all concerned.

Todd Glassey

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From: Harald Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:23:38 +0200

> Harald - I understand that you object to Deans (and my) views and politics but silcensikng dissenting opinions becuase you are offended at the effort of having to ignore them is pretty petty. Its a…
The views of the participants are irrelevant to them being suspended (or
not).
The criteria for being allowed to speak on an IETF list are (basically)
civility, and staying on topic.
> I suggest that it is not in the IETF's best interests to continue with the PR process and propose formally rescinding it and terminating the suspensions prior to the matter escalating to a place th…
The proper place to discuss the IETF's PR-action policy is on the IETF list.
> Todd Glassey
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

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From: "Frank Ellermann" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:54:46 +0200

TS Glassey wrote:

> it is not in the IETF's best interests to continue with
> the PR process and propose formally rescinding it

Brian's draft about this unfortunately didn't make it in
an IETF Last Call.

You could propose to nullify an individual PR-action, in
essence the same procedure as for its creation.  

 Frank

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From: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:21:58 -0700

Harald - I agree that civility is an issue, but its one that you and others 
violate as well. Mew included... hell I threatened to sue you personally for 
some of your actions. My apologies for wasting the lists time with that by 
the way.

As to Dean's suspension, you should have jus ignored him... rather than 
PR'ing him. PR'ing is an invitation for litigation and I will reiterate that 
the rules are adversarial and undisclosed to the Sponsor's so any 
disciplinary actions against their staff who are sponsored opens the IETF 
and YOU PERSONALLY ass well as those who participated to threat of 
litigation I am betting.

As to the topical control of the List itself, the rules are broken as to 
'remaining on topic' and the power to determine what that topic is.  The 
current rules are adversarial to anyoen who dissents from the WG's Chairs 
actions making the WG Chair the cause of damage in those matters where the 
WG Chair makes the determination as to what is and is not on-topic.

Simply put, on the Topic's, the issue is that you as the Group Leader or WG 
Chair DONT OWN THE EFFORTS OF THE GROUP. They belong to the IETF and those 
sponsors who are paying for that time so it is inapporpriate for anyone to 
say what is and is not on topic as long as the the people who are 
participating retain any rights to their own words.

Jorge will probably tell you this is true offline too I bet, but your 
preventing others from participating in a technical manner, even if you 
disagree with their participation is a tortuous interferrance with their 
Sponsor's Operations and I believe opens not only the IETF but you 
personally and more importantly, you sponsor's... or those supporting those 
actions, including their sponsors. Hell you never notify the Sponsor's of 
any disiplinary actions against their representitive and this is a serious 
issue I believe.

No Harald, this needs to change... and Deans suspension may be the straw 
that breaks the camel's back. I suggest that the PR policy and control needs 
to be reviewed and in that eliminated

Todd Glassey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harald Alvestrand" <[email-masked]>
To: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: Harald...Deans Suspension

> TS Glassey skrev:
>> Harald - I understand that you object to Deans (and my) views and 
>> politics but silcensikng dissenting opinions becuase you are offended at 
>> the effort of having to ignore them is pretty petty. Its also pretty 
>> common for the IETF it appears since you personally did this to me as 
>> well.
>>
>> I suggest that it is not in the IETF's best interests to continue with 
>> the PR process and propose formally rescinding it and terminating the 
>> suspensions prior to the matter escalating to a place that's painful and 
>> wasteful for all concerned.
>>

---

From: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:34:33 -0700

F*cking Microsoft Spell Checker... my apologies as to the typos in this.

Todd

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>
To: "Harald Alvestrand" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: Harald...Deans Suspension

> Harald - I agree that civility is an issue, but its one that you and 
> others violate as well. Mew included... hell I threatened to sue you 
> personally for some of your actions. My apologies for wasting the lists 
> time with that by the way.
>
> PR'ing him. PR'ing is an invitation for litigation and I will reiterate 
> that the rules are adversarial and undisclosed to the Sponsor's so any 
> Simply put, on the Topic's, the issue is that you as the Group Leader or 
> WG Chair DONT OWN THE EFFORTS OF THE GROUP. They belong to the IETF and 
> those sponsors who are paying for that time so it is inapporpriate for 
> anyone to say what is and is not on topic as long as the the people who 
> are participating retain any rights to their own words.
>
> personally and more importantly, you sponsor's... or those supporting 
> those actions, including their sponsors. Hell you never notify the 
> Sponsor's of any disiplinary actions against their representitive and this 
> is a serious issue I believe.
>
> that breaks the camel's back. I suggest that the PR policy and control 
> needs to be reviewed and in that eliminated
>
> Todd Glassey
>
>