Subject: Re: [Ltru] Registry updated

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:06:55 -0600

Randy Presuhn <randy underscore presuhn at mindspring dot com> wrote:

> Gerard - Your last two postings are quite off-topic for this WG.
> Please stick to matters that are within our charter and which
> have not already been resolved.

I encouraged Gérard to move this thread onto the WG, since he was 
presenting proposals and suggestions for BCP 47 to a hand-picked private 
list.  I didn't anticipate the long annotated history of ISO standards.

However, some of his points were at least somewhat on-topic, if you look 
hard enough:

1.  One of the numerous objections to the use of ISO 3166-2 code 
elements as sub-region subtags is that the list is not freely available. 
If it is true that the codes may become freely available in the future, 
that does remove one of the objections, although the others remain.

2.  The discussion about Europanto and "Neglish" probably belongs on 
ietf-languages rather than here, but I wasn't about to tell Gérard to 
take his thread to two different lists.  But there is a problem anyway 
with his parallelism: Europanto (as described by its creator, Diego 
Marani) is not at all "described as a purely artificial language only 
spoken by bureaucrats located in Brussels."  Both halves of this 
statement are incorrect; it is not an artificial language (nor a 
language at all, says Marani, but a "linguistic code of conduct"), and 
it has nothing to do with NATO or UN bureaucrats per se (the target 
audience is anyone who needs to communicate across linguistic 
boundaries). [1]

3.  The lengthy historical section was probably meant to establish a 
relationship between AFNOR XP Z 44-020, "Code for the representation of 
names of Oceans and Seas," and the other ISO standards we use in BCP 47. 
I suppose the ultimate purpose was to show that we should add region 
subtags for non-land areas of the earth.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ

[1] http://www.europanto.be/gram.en.html

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From: "Randy Presuhn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:17:34 -0700

Hi -

> From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Registry updated
...
> that does remove one of the objections, although the others remain.

Using 3166-2 is not part of our chartered work.

> take his thread to two different lists.

I would have.  :-)

> subtags for non-land areas of the earth.

This, too, is not part of our chartered work.  If he thinks this should
be included in future work, then it would be fine to raise the question
in conjunction with charter update discussions after we finish our
current work.

Randy
as co-chair

---

From: Lang Gérard <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 08:27:16 +0200

I posted these messages on the list because Harald Alvestrand and Doug Ewell asked me to do so.
Anyway they contain general informations that not completely outside the scope of this list 	and could have interest for the members !
Cordialement.
Gérard LANG

-----Message d'origine-----
De : [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de [email-masked]
Envoyé : mardi 26 août 2008 21:00
À : [email-masked]
Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Registry updated (Randy Presuhn)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:53:05 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Registry updated
To: "LTRU Working Group" <[email-masked]>
Message-ID: <007401c907a4$97fad940$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi -

Gerard - Your last two postings are quite off-topic for this WG.
Please stick to matters that are within our charter and which have not already been resolved.

Randy
ltru co-chair

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lang G?rard" <[email-masked]>
To: "Lang G?rard" <[email-masked]>; "John Cowan" <[email-masked]>; "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <[email-masked]>; "Lang G?rard" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Ltru] [private] Re: Registry updated

4 bis: The following informations should be inserted at their places at the end of point 4 of my previous message:

 AFNOR XP Z 44-002 (1997) gives among its normative references NF EN 23166 (1994), that is the european endorsement by CEN and AFNOR
of ISO 3166 (1993), ISO/DIS 3166-1 (1996), ISO/DIS 3166-2 (1997), and ISO/DIS 3166-3 (1997)

 AFNOR XP Z 44-020 (2006) gives as normative references NF EN 3166-1 (1997), that is the european endorsement by CEN and AFNOR of
ISO 3166-1 (1997), and
 NF EN 639-1 (2002) that is the european endorsement by CEN and AFNOR of ISO 639-1 (2002), that is used inside point 3.2 "Glossary
of generic terms".        Bibliography of AFNOR's XP Z 44-020 also refers to the document Special Publication n? 23 " Limits of
Oceans and Seas", third edition (1953) of IHO (International Hydrographic Organization), as well as Special Publication 23's
document fourth edition final draft (2001).

 ISO 639-3 (2007) gives as only normative references ISO 3166-1 and ISO 15924, but point 4.4 is about "Relationship between ISO
639-2 and ISO 639-3" and also point 4.7 is about "Scripts and regions"

ISO 639-5 (2208) gives as only normative reference ISO 639-2 (1998), and point 4.2 is about "Language identifiers that are also
included in ISO 639-2" and also  Annex A (informative) is about "Groups and remainder  groups in ISO 639-2"

Bien cordialement
G?rard LANG

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Lang G?rard
Envoy? : mardi 26 ao?t 2008 12:06
? : 'John Cowan'; Doug Ewell; [email-masked]'; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Cc : LTRU Working Group; Lang G?rard
Objet : RE: [Ltru] [private] Re: Registry updated

Let me give some more comments about my previous exchanges with Doug Ewell, and some remarks about them.

1- I already indicated in a previous exchange with Doug Ewell that ISO central Secretary is seriously considering a decision to make
all ISO 3166-1 and ISO 3166-2 code lists freely available.

2-Concerning my request for the creation of "Neglish" (nel) inside ISO 639-3, let me remark that even is jokingly presented by
parralelism with "Europanto" (eur), the two cases are completely different. When Europanto, if existing, is described as a purely
artificial language only spoken by bureaucrats located in Brussels, Neglish is a purely genuine spoken language, defined for
reference as born among NATO's bureucrats, build as an enrichment of English language with many words coming from different others
languages (french, german, spanish, ..) and not plainly respecting english grammar, that is massively spoken in our today's world,
specially for international relations of all kinds,  certainly by more people than the people speaking only pure english language,
that all have a good interintelligibity (and this would not be the case with English language only).

3-The common normative history of ISO 639 and ISO 3166 goes back to November 1967, when ISO (after work on this question beginning
in 1951 and submitted to inquiry in 1964) published recommendation R 639 (1st edition) "Symbols for languages, countries and
authorities", includind 4 parts: 1 Language symbols; 2 Country symbols; 3 Symbols of Authorities; 4 Combination of symbols.
Authorities were there understood as ISO national body members.
Annex a gave a classified list of languages and their symbols, arranged by families, following the UDC.
Annex B gave  for each of a list of 38 language names  an alpha-2 language symbol  (and also another alpha-1 language symbol for 10
of them), as well as a numeric-3 index given by the Universal Decimal Classification (UDC).
Annex D gave a classified list of country and standard symbols, with for each of the 50 coutries in the list a numerc UDC iondex, An
alpha-1 or alpha-2 or alpha-3 country symbol and a standards symbol (like USAS fior USA, BS for GB or NF for France).

After that, the story goes on as follows:

 ISO R 639 (November 1967), 1st edition
 Symbols for Languages, Countries and Authorities  (NOT FACE A FACE BILINGUAL ENGLISH/FRENCH)

                                                                                                         ISO 3166 (15/12/1974), 1st
edition   (NOT FACE A FACE BILINGUAL ENGLISH/FRENCH)
                                                                                                         Codes for the
representation of names of countries
                                                                                                         (224 entries, with each an
alpha-2 code element and an alpha-3 code element)

                                                                                                         ISO 3166 (15/05/1981), 2nd
edition  [replaces ISO 3166: 1974]
                                                                                                         Codes for the
representation of names of countries
                                                                                                         (220 entries, with each an
alpha-2, an alpha-3 code element AND a numeric-3 code element)

 ISO 639 (01/04/1988), 1st edition  [replaces ISO R 639]                        ISO 3166 (15/08/1988), 3rd edition   [replaces ISO
3166 1981]
 Code for the representation of names of languages                               Codes for the representation of names of countries
 (136 entries, with each an alpha-2 code element, but "jw")                     (221 entries, with each an alpha-2, an alpha-3 and a
numeric-3 code element)

                                                                                                         ISO 3166 (15/09/1993), 4th
edition   [replaces ISO 3166 1988]
                                                                                                         Codes for the
representartion of names of countries
                                                                                                         (229 entries, with each an
alpha-2 an alpha-3 and a numeric-3 code element)

 [ RFC 1766 (March 1995),  (ONLY ENGLISH)  Tags for the Identification of Languages ]

                                                                                                         [ AFNOR XP Z 44-002 (August
1997)
                                                                                                         Code for the representation
of names of historic countries  (ONLY FRENCH)
                                                                                                         (About 1330 entries, with
each an alpha-5 code element, giving the history of country names
                                                                                                          from 1815 [Congress of
Vienna) to 1974, publication of the first edition of ISO 3166) ]

                                                                                                        ISO 3166-1 (01/10/1997),1st
edition  [ISO 3166 5th edition, replaces ISO 3166 1993]
                                                                                                        Codes for the representation
of names of countries and their subdivisions
                                                                                                        Part 1: Country codes
                                                                                                        (238 entries, with each an
alpha-2, an alpha-3 and a numeric-3 code element)

 ISO 639-2 (22/10/1998), 1st edition                                                    ISO 3166-2 (15/10/1998), 1st edition
 Codes for the representation of names of languages                            Codes for the representation of names of countries
and their subdivisions
 Part 2: Alpha-3 code                                                                         Part 2: Country subdivision code
 (430 entries, with each an alpha-3  "T" code elements,                        (About 6000 entries, each represented with a chain of
characters of length max 6, beginning
 and in 23 cases anorther alpha-3 "B" code element)                             with the alpha-2 code element of the considered
country, followed by an hyphen)

                                                                                                       ISO 3166-3 (01/04/1999), 1st
edition
                                                                                                       Codes for the representation
of names of countries and their subdivisions
                                                                                                       Part 3: Code for formerly
used names of countries
                                                                                                       (26 entries, each with an
alpha-4 code element)

 [ RFC 3066 (January 2001)  [obsoletes RFC 1766]  Tags for the Identification of Languages  (ONLY ENGLISH) ]

 ISO 639-1 (15/07/2002), 1st edition  [replaces ISO 639]  Codes for the representation of names of languages  Part 1: Alpha-2 codes
 (182 entries, with each an alpha-2 code element)

 ISO 15924 (04/02/2004), 1st edition
 Code for the representation of names of scripts
(103 entries, each with an alpha-4 and a numeric-3 code element)

 [ RFC 4646 (September 2006) [obsoletes RFC 3066]                          [ AFNOR XP Z 44-020 (25/09/2006)
 Tags for Identifying Languages  (ONLY ENGLISH)]                               Code for the representation of names of Oceans and
Seas (ONLY FRENCH)
                                                                                                       (About  500 entries, each
represented by a chain of characters beginning by a letter
                                                                                                        representing the considered
Ocean, followed by a numeric chain representing the Seas)]

                                                                                                       ISO 3166-1 (15/11/2006), 2nd
edition [replaces ISO 3166-1 1997]
                                                                                                       Codes for the representation
of names of countries and their subdivisions
                                                                                                       Part 1: Country codes
                                                                                                       (244 entries, 193 independant
countries and 51 others territories with geopolitical interest,
                                                                                                       with each an alpha-2, an
alpha-3 and a numeric 3 code element)

 ISO 639-3 (01/02/2007)                                                                    ISO 3166-2 (15/12/2007), 2nd edition
[replaces ISO 3166-2 1998]
 Codes for the representation of names of languages                           Codes for the representation of names of countries and
their subdivisions
 Part 3: Alpha-3 code for comprehensive coverage of                           Part 2 : Country subdivision code
 languages  (NOT BILINGUAL FACE A FACE ENGLISH/FRENCH)       (About 7000 entries, representing high level administrative
subdivisions of each independant
 (About 7000 entries, with each an alpha-3 code element)                    country inside ISO 3166-1, but Monaco and Vatican, and
also for 2 others terrritories, each
                                                                                                      represented by a chain of
characters of length max 6)

 ISO 639-5 (15/05/2008)
 Codes for the representation of names of languages  Part 5: Alpha-3 code for language families and groups
(114 entries, each with an alpha-3 code element)

 [RFC 4646 bis (08/07/2008)
  Tags for Identidfying Languages draft  (ONLY ENGLISH)

Links between all these documents arte as follows:

ISO 639 (1988) only normative reference is ISO 3166, and its clause 4.4 is "Application of the country symbols"

RFC 1766 (1995) refers to ISO 639 (1988), and also to ISO 3166 (1988) but not to ISO 3166 (1993) [why ?]

ISO 3166-1 (1997) gives ISO 639 (1988) not as a normative reference, but as a bibliographic reference with others ISO standards
using ISO 3166

ISO 639-2 (1998) only normative reference is ISO 3166-1 (1997), and its clause 4.4 is "Application of the country code"

ISO 3166-2 (1998) gives ISO 3166-1 (1997) and ISO 639 (1988) among its normative references, and uses ISO 639 inside its annex  C
(informative) to produce an index of ISO 639 language code elerments used for the representatiobn of official languages of countries

ISO 3166-3 (1999) gives ISO 3166-1 (1997) among its normative references

RFC 3066 (2001) refers to ISO 639 (1988), ISO 639-2 (1998), and ISO 3166 (1988), but not ISO 3166-1 (1997) that seems curious
because RFC 3066  also quasi-refers to the future ISO 639-1 (2000), that will in fact be ISO 639-1 (2002). Also, ISO 3166-2 (1998)
is not referenced inside RFC 31-066, but is in fact directly used by the example sgn-US-MA given inside point 2.2 "Language tag
sources".

ISO 639-1 (2002) gives only the three parts of ISO 3166, ISO 3166-1 (1997), ISO 3166-2 (1998) and ISO 3166-3 (1999) as normative
references, and its clause 4.4 "Application of the country code" explicitely gives both examples   "en US-NY"  and  "fr FR-75".

ISO 15924 (2004) gives ISO 639-2 (1998) among its normative references, but ISO 639-2 and ISO 3166-1 (1997) are also given in the
Bibliography, and in fact definition 3.3 is about "country code", so that ISO 3166 is effectively used by ISO 15924

RFC 4646 (2006) gives as normative references ISO 15924 (2004), ISO 3166-1 (1997), ISO 639-1 (2002), ISO 639-2 (1998) and also
UNSTAT's M49, but not ISO 3166-2 (1998).

ISO 3166-1 (2006) gives ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2 among its normative references, and uses them in informative columns 9 and 10 of
tables 9 and 10 that give the list of code elements of administrative languages (defined in clause 6.2) of each entry.

ISO 3166-2 (2007) gives ISO 3166-1 (2006) among its normative references and uses ISO 639-1 (2002) for each entry inside table 8
"List of country subdivision names and their code elements" to give the list of administrative languages of this entry. Also Annex C
(informative) "Index of ISO 639-1 names of alpha-2 languages code element used" uses ISO 639-1.

RFC 4646 bis (2008) gives as normative references ISO 15924 (2004), ISO 3166-1 (2006), ISO 639-1 (2002), ISO 639-2 (1998), ISO 639-3
(2007), ISO 639-5 (2008) and also UNSTAT's M49, but not ISO 3166-2 (2007). It could also refer to ISO 8601 that is used at the end
of point 3.1.1 "File Format" for the representation of the gregorian calendar.

4-So, combination of ISO 639-1 or 639-2 code elements with ISO 3166-1 or ISO 3166-2 code elements has already been documented many
times, as well in ISO 3166 that in ISO  639, or even in RFC 3066. So, it only seems natural to introduce ISO 3166-2 code elements
inside the "region type" of IANA's Register.

5-Moreover, as ISO 639-3, and ISO 15924 as well, are developping an historic view on language name, it would also be natural to
introduce an historic view on country names. Clearly ISO 3166-3, that begins history in 1974 (in thesame manner that IANA's Register
begins history in 2005 !), in not an adequate reference for this, and AFNOR XP Z 44-002 could be a better one.

Bien cordialement.
G?rard LANG

-----Message d'origine-----
De : John Cowan [mailto:[email-masked]] Envoy? : lundi 25 ao?t 2008 06:11 ? : Doug Ewell Cc : LTRU Working Group; Lang G?rard Objet
: Re: [Ltru] [private] Re: Registry updated

Doug Ewell scripsit:

> Reserving a singleton to introduce a 3166-2-based subtag would be
> syntactically feasible, and has been suggested for other situations,

The trouble is that 3166-2 is neither stable nor publicly available.

--
John Cowan  [email-masked]  http://ccil.org/~cowan In computer science, we stand on each other's feet.
        --Brian K. Reid
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