Subject: [p2p-sip] P2P Universe [was Public P2P SIP service: Damaka.com]

From: Richard.Stastny at oefeg.at (Stastny Richard)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:57:16 +0100

>Now, define "free".  Communications between P2P entities will likely be
"free" after the pipe and the bits are paid >for, but the P2P services
that operate on the network? That's something else, something that could
be subscribed to >and charged for.

So far I could follow the dream in this thread, but now I am getting
confused:

What do you mean with (centralized, subscribed, paid-for) P2P services?
This is a contradiction in itself.

IMHO the ONLY centralized service a P2P universe on the Internet could
rely on is the DNS,
where any peer is taking care of (pay-for, subscribe) by himself

Richard

________________________________

From: p2p-sip-bounces at cs.columbia.edu
[mailto:p2p-sip-bounces at cs.columbia.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Slavitch
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:53 PM
To: Benny Prijono; p2p-sip at cs.columbia.edu
Subject: Re: [p2p-sip] P2P Universe [was Public P2P SIP service:
Damaka.com]

This is EXACTLY what I want to see with P2P SIP. A global SIP galaxy,
interconnecting thousands  of small communities or sub-communities or
sub-sub-communities.  Now the sub-communites could be P2P communities,
regular SIP domains, or even proprietary things like MSN, or (horrors)
the traditional PSTN using gateways that convert the global P2P context
to whatever context the local domain is in. 

Now, define "free".  Communications between P2P entities will likely be
"free" after the pipe and the bits are paid for, but the P2P services
that operate on the network? That's something else, something that could
be subscribed to and charged for.  How that subscription is done is
another issue, for a later standard, once the dust settles and global
P2P SIP is a reality.  How sub-communities,  services and such publish
themselves in the global community, so that they can be found? That too
is for later once the dust settles. 

But first, let us build the underlying infrastructure that supports
this.  Let's stop pussyfooting around.

On 12/01/06, Benny Prijono <lists at bulukucing.org> wrote:

Philip, 

let me again assert my position that I'm not in any way knowledgeable
in P2P technology, so what I'm going to say here is purely based only
on reading couple of sip p2p drafts. But I would say they're quite
logical.

For the sake of discussions, let me try to push my argument to the
limit, until someone says "stop! it's silly, get out of here!".

I have two main motivation for proposing a single sip p2p universe. 

First, it sounds great! A trully global, free, sip p2p network without
border.

Second, because once we solved all the problems with "normal" sip p2p
protocol, I suppose we'll end up with a protocol that is good enough 
to build this global sip p2p network. Because the issues that we need
to solve in "global" sip p2p network *are* basicly the same issues in
"normal" sip p2p.

The only differences are:
- number of nodes will be bigger, which I suppose is not a big deal.
Once we design p2p protocol to accomodate 221 million users, it should
be good enough to handle 10 billion users (or limit it to 4 billion,
if we want to stick with 32bit unsigned integer). 

- p2p overlays need to work together. So if a request arrive in a node
from different overlay, the node should at least be able to direct the
request to other node which it thinks belong to/or closer to the
correct overlay.

While the benetifs of one global sip p2p network are:
- more supernodes, means easier bootstrap, more reliable, more
connectivity, more routing choices, better network quality.

- no more walled garden. People (or "service providers") know that 
they need to work together to make the network works. Once they put
wall in their garden, everybody will put wall in their garden too, and
the network will collapse, and so is their business.

Now to address specific issues that you raised: 
- security. Same issue with "normal" and "global" sip p2p. Remember
that there is only one sip p2p protocol. If this issue is not
addressed in "normal" sip p2p protocol, then there is nothing to 
protect you against malicious users trying to get access to your
overlay, because the protocol itself is open and anybody can build a
custom UA. But once this has been solved, it should be good for the
"global" version of sip p2p. 

- local, ephemeral overlay. There is no reason why it shouldn't work.
Just like the IP protocol, where you can build a local/private
network, there's nothing stopping you from building your local SIP p2p
network using the very same sip p2p protocol.

Same as you, I'm waiting for someone more knowledgeable to step-in in
the discussion.

-benny

Matthews, Philip (Philip) wrote:
> Benny,
>
> Your proposal for a P2P SIP "universe" is certainly technically
> feasible.
>
> However, there is a question of how acceptable it would be to
customers
> and 'service providers' (where 'service provider' in this context has
a 
> somewhat unusual meaning!!).
>
> Consider the application that I am interested in, that of an
Enterprise
> PBX built using P2P SIP technology.
>
> Under your proposal, information about users and devices (= hard and 
> soft
> phones) for company X may well be stored on devices owned by company
Y.
> If company X and Y are fierce competitors, that may not be politically
> acceptable. Or course, if both companies use Skype this happens today,

> but perception can be important.
>
> Also, this proposal doesn't work in the "Ad-Hoc and Ephemeral Groups"
> case
> where phones do not have access to the Internet.
>
> I think this is an interesting question for us to debate. 
> Are we building a protocol for one world-wide network,  or for
multiple
> independent networks?
> - Philip
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-- 
Michael Slavitch
Ottawa, Ontario Canada 

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