Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp charter discussion

From: Ning Zong <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:54:42 -0300

Hi, Lucy

The participating entities in the first paragraph include both peers and trackers in P2P streaming systems. In second paragraph, we discuss the roles of trackers - assuming that people know the basic meaning of peers.
Formal definitions of PPSP peers and PPSP trackers are defined in Problem Statement Draft.

BR,
Ning Zong

Hi YunFei and Christian,
 
One clarification: “participating entities” listed in the text are the peer in P2P streaming systems, is that right? Thus, “PPSP” trackers are another participator in the systems.  Suggest stating that clearly in the first paragraph.
 
Cheers,
Lucy

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:03 AM
To: ext zhangyunfei; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp charter discussion
 
Hi Yunfei,
after reading your charter proposal, a text proposal and 2 questions for clarifications.
 
Best Regards
Christian Schmidt

Proposed new text for more transparency in main description:
Old text:
The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols) for multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in P2P streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet.

PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol – a signaling protocol between “PPSP trackers” and “PPSP peers”, and the PPSP peer protocol – a signaling protocol among “PPSP peers”. A PPSP tracker maintains lists of participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, and answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers inform their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data. 
 
New text:
The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols) for P2P streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet. Participating entities could be intelligent endpoints, caches, content distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices.
 
For a specific channel or streaming file, a PPSP tracker maintains lists of particiating PPSP peers. The PPSP tracker answers queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers provide their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data. PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol – a signaling protocol between “PPSP trackers” and “PPSP peers”, and the PPSP peer protocol – a signaling protocol among “PPSP peers”. 
 
Architectural survey
3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and key issues in best practice.
It is good to have a description of the current P2P streaming architecture. What is missing is the relation to the PPSP work. Will it contain a proposal for the PPSP architecture?
 
Usage document
6. A “usage document” explaining how the protocols defined above, along with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce complete P2P streaming systems.
This sounds more like a "interop document". Was this the intention?

 

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of ext zhangyunfei
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 8:24 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [ppsp] ppsp charter discussion

Dear all,
   The following is the modified version of PPSP charter(An early version was published in the IETF PPSP wiki page).Please review it and any comments and suggestions are highly appreciated.
 
           BR
            Yunfei
--------------------------------------------------------
Description of PPSP Working Group:
The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols) for multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in P2P streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet.

PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol – a signaling protocol between “PPSP trackers” and “PPSP peers”, and the PPSP peer protocol – a signaling protocol among “PPSP peers”. A PPSP tracker maintains lists of participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, and answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers inform their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data. 
 
This WG's primary tasks are to produce:
1. A “problem statement” document describing the problems, incentives, and scope of developing the PPSP protocols, as well as common terminologies and concepts.
 
2. A “requirements” document listing the requirements on the designed PPSP protocols (e.g., general functionality and performance requirements of PPSP protocols or basic types of information that PPSP protocols should communicate to facilitate P2P streaming).

3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and key issues in best practice.

4. A proposed standard defining the PPSP peer protocol. This protocol will define how PPSP peers advertise chunk availability. The protocol will also define the requests and responses of chunks among PPSP peers.
 
5. A proposed standard defining the PPSP tracker protocol. This protocol will define how PPSP peers inform and request information from PPSP trackers and how PPSP trackers reply to the requests.
 
6. A “usage document” explaining how the protocols defined above, along with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce complete P2P streaming systems.
 
7. Optionally a ”mobile usage document” (PPSP mobile BCP document) to evaluate PPSP with and without Mobile IP support when there are a lot of mobile peers in the system.

The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO, MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present to the respective working groups.

The design of PPSP has to consider security/privacy issues. The protocol document will contain a complete description of the security/privacy issues that PPSP should address.
 
The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope:
1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc.

2. Network coding mechanisms in P2P streaming. Network coding may be used in P2P streaming, but its support is beyond the scope of current charter.
 
3. Play-out mechanisms including streaming control (e.g., pause, fast-forward, and rewind).
 
4. Algorithms that may be different in different deployments (e.g., chunk selection, local storage strategies).
 
5. Research type questions related to P2P streaming. This WG will instead forward such questions to the IRTF P2PRG or other RG as appropriate. Examples include cache management.
Goals and Milestones:
Apr 2010Working Group Last Call for problem statement
Jun 2010Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational document
Aug 2010Working Group Last Call for architecture survey
Aug 2010Working Group Last Call for requirements
Oct
2010Submit architecture survey to IESG as Informational document
Oct 2010Submit requirements to IESG as Informational document
Apr 2011Working Group Last Call for PPSP peer protocol
Apr
2011Working Group Last Call for PPSP tracker protocol
Aug 2011Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard
Aug 2011Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard
Nov 2011Working Group Last Call of usage document
Nov 2011Working Group Last Call of mobility BCP document
Jan 2012Submit usage document to IESG as Informational document
Jan 2012Submit mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational document
Apr 2012Dissolve or re-charter 

zhangyunfei
2009-09-10

---

From: Yong Lucy <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:49:45 -0500

Hi Ning,

I see. Thus it should make clear in the first paragraph and state the role
for the peer in the second paragraph.  

Do we anticipate the communication between PPSP trackers? If yes, PPSP
tracker protocol should be used for it.

Cheers,

Lucy

  _____  

From: Ning Zong [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:55 AM
To: Yong Lucy; 'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE; 'ext zhangyunfei';
[email-masked]
Subject: Re: Re: [ppsp] ppsp charter discussion

Hi, Lucy

The participating entities in the first paragraph include both peers and
trackers in P2P streaming systems. In second paragraph, we discuss the roles
of trackers - assuming that people know the basic meaning of peers.

Formal definitions of PPSP peers and PPSP trackers are defined in Problem
Statement Draft.

BR,

Ning Zong

  _____  

Hi YunFei and Christian,

One clarification: "participating entities" listed in the text are the peer
in P2P streaming systems, is that right? Thus, "PPSP" trackers are another
participator in the systems.  Suggest stating that clearly in the first
paragraph.

Cheers,

Lucy

  _____  

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:03 AM
To: ext zhangyunfei; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp charter discussion

Hi Yunfei,

after reading your charter proposal, a text proposal and 2 questions for
clarifications.

Best Regards

Christian Schmidt

Old text:

The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is
chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols)
for multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content
distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in P2P
streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet.

PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol - a signaling protocol
between "PPSP trackers" and "PPSP peers", and the PPSP peer protocol - a
signaling protocol among "PPSP peers". A PPSP tracker maintains lists of
participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, and
answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers
inform their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk
availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP
peers for wanted data. 

New text:

The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is
chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols)
for P2P streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet. Participating
entities could be intelligent endpoints, caches, content distribution
network nodes, and/or other edge devices.

For a specific channel or streaming file, a PPSP tracker maintains lists of
particiating PPSP peers. The PPSP tracker answers queries from PPSP peers
for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers provide their status information to
PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers
and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data. PPSP
protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol - a signaling protocol between
"PPSP trackers" and "PPSP peers", and the PPSP peer protocol - a signaling
protocol among "PPSP peers". 

Architectural survey

3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current P2P streaming
architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and key issues in
best practice.

It is good to have a description of the current P2P streaming architecture.
What is missing is the relation to the PPSP work. Will it contain a proposal
for the PPSP architecture?

Usage document

6. A "usage document" explaining how the protocols defined above, along with
existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can inter-operate;
and how they may be integrated together to produce complete P2P streaming
systems.

 

 

  _____  

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of ext
zhangyunfei
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 8:24 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [ppsp] ppsp charter discussion

Dear all,

   The following is the modified version of PPSP charter(An early version
was published in the IETF PPSP wiki page).Please review it and any comments
and suggestions are highly appreciated.

           BR

            Yunfei

The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is
chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP protocols)
for multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content
distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in P2P
streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet.

PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol - a signaling protocol
between "PPSP trackers" and "PPSP peers", and the PPSP peer protocol - a
signaling protocol among "PPSP peers". A PPSP tracker maintains lists of
participating PPSP peers, each for a specific channel or streaming file, and
answers the queries from PPSP peers for candidate PPSP peers. PPSP peers
inform their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk
availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers, and ask other PPSP
peers for wanted data. 

This WG's primary tasks are to produce:
1. A "problem statement" document describing the problems, incentives, and
scope of developing the PPSP protocols, as well as common terminologies and
concepts.

2. A "requirements" document listing the requirements on the designed PPSP
protocols (e.g., general functionality and performance requirements of PPSP
protocols or basic types of information that PPSP protocols should
communicate to facilitate P2P streaming).

3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current P2P streaming
architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and key issues in
best practice.

4. A proposed standard defining the PPSP peer protocol. This protocol will
define how PPSP peers advertise chunk availability. The protocol will also
define the requests and responses of chunks among PPSP peers.

5. A proposed standard defining the PPSP tracker protocol. This protocol
will define how PPSP peers inform and request information from PPSP trackers
and how PPSP trackers reply to the requests.

6. A "usage document" explaining how the protocols defined above, along with
existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can inter-operate;
and how they may be integrated together to produce complete P2P streaming
systems.

7. Optionally a "mobile usage document" (PPSP mobile BCP document) to
evaluate PPSP with and without Mobile IP support when there are a lot of
mobile peers in the system.

The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close
participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO and
MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, and
MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO, MMUSIC
are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present to the
respective working groups.

The design of PPSP has to consider security/privacy issues. The protocol
document will contain a complete description of the security/privacy issues
that PPSP should address.

The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope:
1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using
TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc.

2. Network coding mechanisms in P2P streaming. Network coding may be used in
P2P streaming, but its support is beyond the scope of current charter.

3. Play-out mechanisms including streaming control (e.g., pause,
fast-forward, and rewind).

4. Algorithms that may be different in different deployments (e.g., chunk
selection, local storage strategies).

5. Research type questions related to P2P streaming. This WG will instead
forward such questions to the IRTF P2PRG or other RG as appropriate.
Examples include cache management.

Goals and Milestones:

Apr 2010

Working Group Last Call for problem statement

Jun 2010

Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational document

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for architecture survey

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for requirements

Oct

2010

Submit architecture survey to IESG as Informational document

Oct 2010

Submit requirements to IESG as Informational document

Apr 2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP peer protocol

Apr

2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP tracker protocol

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of usage document

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of mobility BCP document

Jan 2012

Submit usage document to IESG as Informational document

Jan 2012

Submit mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational document

Apr 2012

Dissolve or re-charter 

  _____  

zhangyunfei

2009-09-10

  _____

---

From: Ping Pan <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:22:34 -0700

Ning,

I'd think that it is very important to emphasis the target users of the
work, which has been quoted as "intelligent endpoints, caches, content
distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices."

If possible, I would hope that further specification, clarification and
constraints to be added in one of the documents.

The reasoning is that, if the work is to enable further proliferation of P2P
clients within the networks, then the WG needs to address issues including
security, privacy and copyrights extensively. This may be above and beyond
technology, and is probably outside the scope of PPSP.

On the other hand, if the work is to enable more efficient streaming content
distribtution within a controlled environment by leveraging mechanisms such
as tracker management and chuck discovery, then the work is well understood,
and can be clearly defined, specified and experimented in the near future.

2 cents,

- Ping

2009/9/10 Ning Zong <[email-masked]>

>  ------------------------------
>
> Hi YunFei and Christian,
>
>
>
> One clarification: “participating entities” listed in the text are the peer
> in P2P streaming systems, is that right? Thus, “PPSP” trackers are another
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] *On Behalf Of
> *Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:03 AM
> *To:* ext zhangyunfei; [email-masked]
> *Subject:* Re: [ppsp] ppsp charter discussion
>
>
>
> Hi Yunfei,
>
> PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol – a signaling protocol
> between “PPSP trackers” and “PPSP peers”, and the PPSP peer protocol – a
> signaling protocol among “PPSP peers”. A PPSP tracker maintains lists of
> chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP
> protocols) for P2P streaming systems in both fixed and mobile Internet.
> Participating entities could be intelligent endpoints, caches, content
> distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices.
>
>
>
> protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol – a signaling protocol between
> “PPSP trackers” and “PPSP peers”, and the PPSP peer protocol – a signaling
> protocol among “PPSP peers”.
>
>
>
> Architectural survey
>
> 6. A “usage document” explaining how the protocols defined above, along
> with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can
> inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce complete
> P2P streaming systems.
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] *On Behalf Of
> *ext zhangyunfei
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 10, 2009 8:24 AM
> *To:* [email-masked]
> *Subject:* [ppsp] ppsp charter discussion
>
> **
>
> *Dear all,*
>
> *   The following is the modified version of PPSP charter(An early version
> and suggestions are highly appreciated.*
>
>
>
> *           BR*
>
> *            Yunfei*
>
> *--------------------------------------------------------*
>
> *Description of PPSP Working Group:*
>
> PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol – a signaling protocol
> between “PPSP trackers” and “PPSP peers”, and the PPSP peer protocol – a
> signaling protocol among “PPSP peers”. A PPSP tracker maintains lists of
> 1. A “problem statement” document describing the problems, incentives, and
> 2. A “requirements” document listing the requirements on the designed PPSP
> 6. A “usage document” explaining how the protocols defined above, along
> with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can
> inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce complete
> P2P streaming systems.
>
>
>
> 7. Optionally a ”mobile usage document” (PPSP mobile BCP document) to
> 2. Network coding mechanisms in P2P streaming. Network coding may be used
> in P2P streaming, but its support is beyond the scope of current charter.
>
>
>
> *Goals and Milestones:*
>  ------------------------------
>
> zhangyunfei
>
> 2009-09-10
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ppsp mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>
>

---

From: yunfei zhang <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:47:29 +0800

I agree with Ning's opinion.Thanks,Lucy.

Yunfei