Subject: [RRG] Ships in the night? RRG, RADIR & ist-RiNG

From: Robin Whittle <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:00:23 +1100

Can anyone clarify or comment on the roles of these three ships?

They seem to be sailing in the same ocean, ostensibly on the same
mission.  However, they rarely, if ever, come close enough to each
other to communicate or work together.

 - Robin          http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/

IRTF Routing Research Group - RRG
---------------------------------

     http://www.irtf.org/charter?gtype=rg&group=rrg
     http://psg.com/lists/rrg/
     http://www3.tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/trac/wiki/RoutingResearchGroup

  The RRG mailing list is a hotbed of activity regarding ITR-ETR
  schemes for near term, backwards compatible, incrementally
  deployable resolution of the routing and addressing problems.
  Also discussed are potential upgrades to BGP and longer term
  solutions which are not incrementally deployable.

  The mailing list continues the discussions of the RAM list, which
  grew out of the 2006 RAWS workshop.

  I understand the RRG is been charged with the task of identifying
  which approaches should be recommended to the IESG to be developed
  by one or more IETF Working Groups.

  While the problem is of immense importance and while a solution is
  urgently desired, I understand there is no absolute timeframe.  My
  guess is that it will probably be quite a while - a year or so? -
  before the current pace of volunteer activity might result in
  sufficiently developed alternatives from which a good decision
  might be made.

  The RRG produced a Design Goals ID (v01 from 2007-07-08):

     http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-rrg-design-goals-01

RADIR - Routing and Addressing Directorate
------------------------------------------

     http://www.ietf.org/IESG/content/radir.html
     http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/radir/current/

  Closed list with public archives.  Most members are not active on
  RRG list: Marla Azinger, Vince Fuller, Vijay Gill, Thomas Narten
  (chair), Erik Nordmark, Jason Schiller, Peter Schoenmaker,
  John Scudder.

  Produced a Routing and Addressing Problem Statement (v01 from
  2007-10-09):

     http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-radir-problem-statement-01

  Not much mailing list activity since then, but phone meeting
  notes from 2007-11-27 report "Relatively little traffic on RRG
  over last 1-2 months.".  Perhaps the sailor in the crows nest
  needs a better pair of binoculars - the RRG list has been
  a flurry of activity.

ist-RiNG
--------

     http://www.ist-ring.org

  Since its inception earlier in 2007, large sums of money seem to
  have been expended on a flashy, over-complex, website and the
  level of bureaucratic/PR guff and activity reportage which seems
  to compulsory in any such EU-funded project.

  In the "Deliverables" department, the only thing of potential
  substance which exists (as opposed to being planned, but having
  no hyperlink) is:

     http://www.ist-ring.org/open/ring_pu_d0_5_1_v1_4.pdf

  (no text copying allowed) which reports on various activities,
  which at first glance seems to consist of attendance at other
  organisations' meetings.

  The main activity seems to be a "Routing in Next Generation"
  workshop, for 13-14 December 2007.

     http://www.ist-ring.org/index.php?page=workshops/agenda_2007

  This will have presentations on LISP, SixOne, HRA and on the
  RRG meetings in Vancouver.  The website does not appear to
  show where the workshop is taking place.

  The Wiki http://wiki.ist-ring.org just seems to be a reading
  list - but it is quite extensive.

  In few entries in the News and Events section of the main site,
  there's nothing much of interest - but in May there was mention
  of a "New Report is a Technical Introduction for People Without
  an Engineering  Background to the Internet’s Infrastructure and
  to its Major Protocols and Applications".

  The link leads to a page with a link to businesswire article
  which links to a researchandmarkets.com page which is selling
  the report.  This report was not produced by ist-RiNG - I wrote
  it! Its real home is:

     http://www.budde.com.au/publications/annual/technology/internet-technology-vol-1.html

  It took me about 20 minutes of trawling through the ist-RiNG
  site to tentatively conclude that they don't have a publicly
  accessible mailing list - or perhaps any mailing list - and
  that they haven't produced any new ideas or technical documents.

  ist-RiNG seems to have staff, lots of taxpayers' money and
  corporate and government backing.  No volunteer would or could
  produce the above-mentioned ring_pu_d0_5_1_v1_4.pdf.

  I understand that RRG and RADIR are purely volunteer efforts,
  with some volunteers presumably doing it as part of their paid
  employment (for large corporations or universities) and others
  doing it entirely in their own time.

  It seems the future of the Internet depends on a hardy bunch
  of adventurers in small vessels, sailing in uncharted waters,
  with bold plans.

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---

From: Lixia Zhang <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:32:30 -0800

> other to communicate or work together.

Hi Robin,

here is my understanding:

RRG: It is a research group, under IRTF. its mission is described in  
the charter
	http://www.irtf.org/charter?gtype=rg&group=rrg

regarding your following comment
>   urgently desired, I understand there is no absolute timeframe.

yes in general research does not necessarily follows an absolute  
deadline.
and yes your statement is quite right that the problem is of immense  
importance and a solution is urgently desired. Tony and I have  
discussed this topic, and will share our thought shortly.

RADIR: again its charter says what it is
    "The Routing and Addressing Directorate is tasked to stay
     abreast of activities and provide coordinated updates to
     the community"
it is a directorate, but not a research/engineering/result-producing  
body by itself.

ist-RiNG: I know this one least so my comment can be entirely wrong,  
but isn't this merely one of multiple existing funded projects in the  
broad Internet research area?

Lets chat offline if you still find this confusing.

Lixia

---

From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 08:35:27 -0800

Robin,

The RRG is the IRTF forum which from an IETF perspective is the main
place for working on the routing scalability problem. Participants in
the RRG come from different parts of the world, different research
projects, different parts of the industry and academia.

The RADIR is a directorate originally set up by the IESG and IAB to
follow and review efforts in this space. They would not produce any
solutions, but may provide feedback, problem definitions, etc. They have
recently published their problem statement.

ist-RiNG is one research project focusing on routing issues. There are
others, and I would encourage people to start new ones. There will
undoubtedly be also various research workshops and conferences on this
topic, such as the one that you mentioned from later this month. There
will be others.

Hope this clarifies,

Jari

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 21:38:16 -0800

>  show where the workshop is taking place.

In Madrid.

>  that they haven't produced any new ideas or technical documents.

Well, at the one of the first (if not THE first) RiNG meetings I  
presented the following: http://www.muada.com/drafts/draft-van-beijnum-idle-00.txt

But I suppose that doesn't count as RiNG work since I'm not a member  
but a "sponsor". This means that I don't get any of that tax money,  
but I also don't have to jump through all those administrative hoops.

Research is being done under the RiNG project flag. I assume this will  
become more visible at some point in the future.

---

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 18:51:28 -0800

> topic, such as the one that you mentioned from later this month. There

Folks might also note that NSF's GENI/FIND project is out to consider  
a new architecture for the entire net, so it's even more general than  
what we're doing.

Tony