Subject: Re: SSH-> Secure Shell renaming is *not* official.

From: Theo de Raadt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:12:42 -0700

Tero Kivinen <[email-masked]> (who is apparently an
employee of ssh.com posting from another place probably so he will
look like an independent thinker) said:

> When Tatu called me on the Friday afternoon and asked would it be ok
> to submit the new version of drafts, that also had been renamed, or
> not to submit them at all (the deadline was in few hours), I didn't
> see any reason why not submit. There hadn't been single person saying
> "No" on the ietf-ssh list, thus I think we had consensus, or most
> people simply dont care. If there has been private discussion
> somewhere, I don't know about it.

I think it is clear that you live in a different universe.

I don't understand where you get this.  Many other vendors of SSH
implementations have been very outspoken against the change, because
SSH is a generic term referring to programs which do the SSH protocol.
Note -- no trademark.  We feel that ssh.com is making invalid claims,
and if ssh.com feels so strongly otherwise, go ahead -- sue us.  If
you don't sue us, you are not defending it.  But if you sue us, you
may expect to have it invalided in court....

Basically, anyone who has a name which includes SSH in it is pretty
much saying "we do SSH protocol".  Looking around, I do not see many
vendors using the term "Secure Shell".  Of course, if a judge decides
that SSH is an acronym for "Secure Shell"...

Here in OpenSSH land, we all very firmy believe that a name change
would needlessly create user community confusion.

BTW, check out the graphs at http://ssh-research.ucs.ualberta.ca/

---

From: "Elya Kurktchi" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:19:50 -0800

I agree.  However, on http://www.ssh.com website, it says that SSH, SSH
Secure Shell
and SSH Sentinel are registered trademarks or trademarks of SSH
Communications
Security Corp in the U.S. and/or other countries.

Elya.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Theo de Raadt
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 1:13 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: SSH-> Secure Shell renaming is *not* official.

---

From: RJ Atkinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:46:45 -0500

>Security Corp in the U.S. and/or other countries.

Just because one has registered a trademark (in any country)
does not mean the trademark claim is valid or invalid.  It is 
easy to register anything as a trademark.  The courts are the
place where the validity of a trademark (and its limitations,
if any) are ultimately established.

Ran

---

From: Tero Kivinen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:53:44 +0200 (EET)

> look like an independent thinker) said:

If I have understood correctly in the IETF people are always supposed
to be individuals not representatives of the companies unless theyself 
states so.

The reason I am posting from the different host is historic. I
subscribed to the ssh mailing list while I still worked at the
university and I haven't moved the ssh-mailing lists from there to
fill up my work mailbox. I want to keep my work mailbox only for work
related issues (currently mostly IPsec and IKE, not much secure
shell).

Anyways I don't think this issue has anything to do with the secure
shell working group.
-- 
[email-masked]                               Work : +358 303 9870
SSH Communications Security                  http://www.ssh.fi/
SSH IPSEC Toolkit                            http://www.ssh.fi/ipsec/

---

From: Bill Sommerfeld <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:20:10 -0500

> to be individuals not representatives of the companies unless theyself 

Tero is correct.  Participants in the IETF should be presumed to be
speaking for themselves, not speaking for their employers.  

In this case, it is silly for anyone to think that the identity and
affiliation of one of the authors of the core SSH drafts is unknown to
participants in the working group.

Let's keep things civil, folks. If you feel that someone has made
inappropriate remarks about you or another participant, let me know
via private email and I'll make an attempt to deal with the situation.

					- Bill