Subject: [Sipping] Ad-hoc on SIP peer-to-peer

From: Gonzalo Camarillo <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:13:32 +0300

Folks,

the ad-hoc on SIP peer-to-peer Henning has been organizing will take 
place on Wednesday from 0900 to 1000 in Bordeaux.

Cheers,

Gonzalo
SIPPING co-chair

_______________________________________________
Sipping mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping
This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP
Use [email-masked] for questions on current sip
Use [email-masked] for new developments of core SIP

---

From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:21:48 -0400

Thanks, Gonzalo (and Allison) for helping with this. Please let me know 
if you'd like formal "air time" and have specific agenda items. My 
intent was to make the discussion rather informal, rather than the usual 
sequence of 5-minute presentations.

I'd like to discuss
- existing efforts (DNS-based & DHT-based)
- can we separate "p2p SIP" into components?
- should we strive to capture experimental protocols?

Please send me agenda items you'd like to discuss.

Henning

---

From: "Cullen Jennings" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:40:16 -0700

Summary:

There was substantial interest in the topic of P2P SIP and around 125 people
showed up. It is clear that work in this area is being done by many people
including, universities, start up companies, small and large established
vendors, and large service providers.

The group discussed some deployment scenarios that might be able to take
advantage of P2P technology including:

1. Emergency Ad-Hoc: Disaster and emergencies situations where connectivity
to the global internet, including DNS root servers, was not possible

2. SOHO - Small offices or home networks where the devices discover the
other nearby devices and can perform services across them

3. Large Scale: Networks with no central server so that they are very cheap
to operate and run but support many users

The group discussed some problems where P2P approaches might be a good
solution including:
1. Distributed Location Server: Use a distributed P2P system to distribute
the register/location server information
2. Configuration Storage: Store configuration details for a phone across the
networks
3. Voice Mail:
4. Address Book Storage
5. Reputation Systems
6. Gateway
7. Media Relay: (Distributed TURN servers)
8. Media Anonymization

Some issues that people would like to work on:
1. Scale: Both scaling up and down
2. Reliability
3. Federations
4. Trust Models
5. Identity
6. Namespaces
7. Data Storage

All the systems described had somewhat common approaches in that they were
using DHTs as the underlying approach. Attention should be paid to when it
is the right time to use P2P technology and when other approaches such as
DNS and Multicast can provide a better solution.

Interesting comment that we should publish some of this before it all gets
patented.

The HIP folks has formed both an IRTF and an IETF group. The folks here
should probably go look at these to gain a better understanding of the
function of both.

Next steps: There was some talk about what it might take to form a IETF
working group. There was substantially more talk about forming a IRTF
Research Group. There was not much feeling that this overlapped with the
interests of the current p2prg. Many people has a strong desire to have a
full day metering where we could discuss this work in depth. Having this in
Vancouver just before the November IETF meeting seemed like the most
realistic possibility and many people said they would come to this if it
happened.

Henry called for volunteers to help with this and help manage this, And
offered to provide help himself. Everyone provided mutual encouragement to
join the email list and send some comments.

Raw Notes Below
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

David Bryan presented a few slides on what he is working on.
Uses a DHT based on sip message to build a distributed a
Very many different ways that you could implement this

Work to be done
* use a DHT to do location vs. doing it in SIP
* traversing NATs
* using media relay NATs
* how do you know who is who
* security
* various routing algorithm, which to use

Use case
- Small enterprises simple admin
- Emergency - ad hoc comm.
- Large scale global communications

Problems Mentioned:
- Identity issues
- How to deal with DHT parameters for this type problem

There is p2psip.org page - community page. Glad to add stuff from everyone
to page.

Folk Mathews - Nimcat
* having small office system
* working on commercial system today
* interested in DHT methods
* robustness important
* wrote a draft at previous IETF
* talks about things that are important
* what we need:
* Interesting problem s: How to scale,
* Their P2P layer is separate from SIP level.
* Interesting question - Alan J. draft, separate the P2P layer from SIP and
doing it SIP. Not 100% clear what is best...
* Also use multicast to discover nodes. Also broadcast presence information
via multicast.
* Everyone knows where everyone is via multicast registrations

Henning: 3 ways he has herd of to map
Cord like system
Copy of registration everywhere
Use DNS to map

Panasonic:
Conducting research in P2P
Want to connect consumer devices using SIP. Many types of works.
Similar to some of existing work.
Consumers devices have very intermittent network connectivity
Concerned about DHT stability in these.

Marc Bailly
France Telecom
Working P2P SIP. Understanding distribution of services. Use separation of
SIP and DHT layer. Looking at IMS style services.

Henning's system:
Do ICE on each node
Use DHT to build a registration table

What can we use P2P for
- Rendezvous signaling
- Configuration storage
- Media storage - is this voicemail. Store voicemail for person who's phone
is not available. Need .to work even when persons phone is not there.
Privacy of media. Trust model of forwarding information.
- Identity Assertion - Use P2P node to lead credibility to claim of
identity.
- Gateway - use gateways is home phones. Cheap gateways. Free World Dialup
was originally this
- NAT/Media Relay - two sub cases - traversal - overlay network. Work on
picking optimal node. - overlay networks that route around problems to avoid
congestion. Not BGP routing but higher layer.

- David Bryan add -> connect farms of proxies (like autonomic computing)
self organizing . Completely conventional SIP UA but use P@P in proxies.
- Interconnect of classical systems and P2P systems

- Cullen add -> Anonymize Signalling and Media
- Cullen -> Address Book
- Nick Papadoglou Vodaphone looked at P2P for ringbones and voicemail.
Always run into security and trust problems. Also looked at IMS and p2p for
service discovery. Looking at where can I find this server or distributed
finding out ring tones.

Problems

Scale
Reliability
Federation
Trust Modeless
Identity
How  do you do identity. Namespace. Stopping identity threat. Trusting who
someone is.
Interconnect
Data Storage

Separation of basic uses and advanced user. Diagnosis and how to debug a P2P
system How does administrator deal with it.

It is hard to debug P2P system because messages are all over places.

Jonathan Rosenberg - don't have to do everything P2P..

What's next:

There is a lot of interest in this. Document this soon before it all gets
patented.
Henry S.  is willing to write up notes to make them understandable for
people who were not at the meeting.

Very roughly 125 people

Eunsoo Shim - Proposal to get a SIP P2P WG and start working on charter for
BOF.

Henning had proposal of IRTF group.

Gonzales explaining about HIP. There is an IRTF HIP group and a HIP WG. May
want to look at this model.

Concern about IRTF - there is no end to research. Progress is very slow.

Need more time to talk about points of commonality. Workshop, interim
meeting. Concrete proposal to have 1.5 day workshop around Vancouver.
Perhaps some demos of real things.

May be fairly close to experimental agreement -

John from Panasonic - P2p WG is chaired by co-author of JXTA. Do not have
impression. - modeling of HIP approach. IRTF is very long term research
thing. Spending next few months for BOF that could happen next year makes
sense.

Current  p2prg is all over the place. We are focusing very specific problems
need faster better thing.

Trying to bring carrier in this effort

At the p2prg at IETF 61, it was less than 10 people. It was place to meet
and present what they were doing.

Henry ask for some volunteers to spread the talent and get some project
management to get this done.

Things to do
* talk to p2p
* consider IRTF list
* consider setting up meeting around Vancouver

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:28:35 -0500

The BOF on P2P SIP at the 64 IETF in Paris was organized and chaired by
Henning Schulzrinne and I am using the notes displayed by the chair during
the meeting to provide some text around them. The original notes are at
http://www.softarmor.com/sipping/meets/ietf63/slides/p2p-henning-sipping-iet
f63.ppt 

The meeting was very well attended and Cullen Jennings estimates the number
of attendees was around 125. 

(Henry's Note: Among the reasons for such impressive attendance may have
contributed several facts, such as: P2P traffic dominates the Internet and
the largest VoIP provider is Skype using P2P, though not SIP; see also
http://linuxreviews.org/news/2004/11/05_p2p/ and
http://www.cachelogic.com/p2p/p2ptraffic.php ). 

Ongoing Efforts on P2P SIP

SIP DHT
David Brian and Cullen Jennings reported on their work to use SIP for the
Distributed Hash Tables (DHT). This work is also available online at
http://www.p2psip.org/draft-bryan-sipping-p2p-00.html 

P2P SIP IP PBX
Philip Matthews from NIMCAT Networks (http://nimcatnetworks.com/ ) shared
the approach using multicast bindings and several layers to achieve P2P
functionality. 
Henry's note: There are several P2P enterprise systems on the market, such
as http://peerio.com/ , http://www.aastra.com/enterpriseip/pro_228.asp and
probably other as well.

Home Networks
Eunsoo Shim from Panasonic reported on research targeted on discovery and
communications between consumer home network devices that support video and
other types of multimedia.

IMS-like functionality
Marc Bailey from France Telecom shared information on research on P2P SIP
targeted on IMS-like carrier services in a distributed environment. 
Similar work seems to be ongoing at Vodaphone.

Taxonomy for P2P SIP
There was a discussion on the need to publish a taxonomy for terms used in
P2P SIP. 

Where Next?
Several speakers mentioned related efforts, such as in IETF RG on P2P, see
http://www.irtf.org/charter.php?gtype=rg&group=p2prg , but the comments made
were that P2P SIP cannot wait for the research work in P2PRG and real time
communications may have different requirements.

Applications of P2P SIP

An astonishing wide range of applications was mentioned for P2P SIP, such
as:

- Rendezvous and signaling,
- Configuration files for devices, watcher lists, address books
- Media storage such as voice mail,
- Identity assertion
- Anonymity for both signaling and media,
- Distributed gateways (an original idea for Free World Dialup)
- Discovery of the best media relay for NAT traversal in overlay networks,
- Farms of SIP registrar/proxy servers that are the P2P supernodes for a
service provider. The deployment of self organizing networks.
- Service discovery, such as finding where to download ring tones.

Problems and Challenges for P2P SIP

The technical challenges for P2P SIP seem to match the opportunities 

- How to scale P2P further than the local network,
- Reliability and how to diagnose problems,
- Federation and communications between P2P SIP networks,
- Interconnection of P2P and client server SIP networks,
- What are the trust models and who can see my data?
- Data storage, such as voice mail: In random phones or only in phones of
trusted buddies?
- Identity theft and providing unique identity. Is this a P2P SIP problem?

Documentation

David Bryan and several contributors are maintaining the web site with
information on P2P SIP. See http://www.p2psip.org/ 

I would also like to point to some of the impressive work at Columbia
University:

http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~library/TR-repository/reports/reports-2004/cucs
-044-04.pdf 

http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~kns10/publication/sip-p2p-short.pdf 

http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~kns10/talks/p2psip-panasonic.ppt 

http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~kns10/publication/sipload.pdf 

What's Next?

- Should there be a formal IETF WG on P2P SIP?
- The need for a mailing list. Henning Schulzrinne has in the meantime set
up the list: See http://lists.cs.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/p2p-sip 
- There will probably a workshop just before the next IETF in Vancouver
((November 6 - 11, 2005), see http://ietf.org/meetings/meetings.html and you
may wish to bloc the calendar accordingly. 

Thanks, Henry

Subject: [Sipping] Draft Notes from Ad-hoc on SIP peer-to-peer
From: "Cullen Jennings" <[email-masked]>
To: "'sipping'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "'Rohan Mahy'" <[email-masked]>, "'David Bryan'" <[email-masked]>, "'Dean Willis'" <[email-masked]>, "'Allison Mankin'" <[email-masked]>, "'Gonzalo Camarillo'" <[email-masked]>, "'Henning Schulzrinne'" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:40:16 -0500

Summary:

Raw Notes Below

Work to be done

Use case

Problems Mentioned:
- Identity issues

Folk Mathews - Nimcat

Panasonic:

Marc Bailly
France Telecom

Henning's system:
Do ICE on each node

What can we use P2P for
- Rendezvous signaling
- Configuration storage

Problems

Scale
Reliability
Federation
Trust Modeless
Identity

What's next:

Very roughly 125 people

Things to do
* talk to p2p
* consider IRTF list