From jouni.korhonen@nsn.com Sun Jul 1 02:14:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6BD321F848B; Sun, 1 Jul 2012 02:14:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5gHIw6aMTxtC; Sun, 1 Jul 2012 02:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D50521F8483; Sun, 1 Jul 2012 02:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q619DuT8014229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 1 Jul 2012 11:13:56 +0200 Received: from demuexc022.nsn-intra.net (demuexc022.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.35]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q619DqIe020770; Sun, 1 Jul 2012 11:13:55 +0200 Received: from FIESEXC035.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.0.25]) by demuexc022.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sun, 1 Jul 2012 11:12:18 +0200 Received: from 10.144.245.199 ([10.144.245.199]) by FIESEXC035.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.0.182]) via Exchange Front-End Server demuexc023.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.36]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:12:17 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.33.0.120411 Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 12:12:18 +0300 Subject: Re: 84th IETF DRAFT Agenda From: Jouni Korhonen To: ext Ralph Droms , IETF Agenda Message-ID: Thread-Topic: 84th IETF DRAFT Agenda Thread-Index: Ac1XaZzzRfUs8T2EckeRE9sDfXZ60w== In-Reply-To: <6AF491B3-F0C6-44CB-ACB8-A5D335BBA30A@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2012 09:12:18.0998 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D8BCD60:01CD5769] X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate-Ad: Categorized by eleven eXpurgate (R) http://www.eleven.de X-purgate: clean X-purgate: This mail is considered clean (visit http://www.eleven.de for further information) X-purgate-size: 269 X-purgate-ID: 151667::1341134036-00003CDD-11926AFF/0-0/0-0 Cc: wg-chair , Internet Group Research Steering X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:14:02 -0000 Looks OK to me. - JOuni On 6/30/12 12:13 AM, "ext Ralph Droms" wrote: > Hearing no objections, Brian and I request the following changes: > > 1. HOMENET -> T/1520 > 2. DHC -> M/0900 > 3. DMM -> T/0900 > > - Ralph > From dcrocker@bbiw.net Sun Jul 1 09:47:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4969421F8ACB for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:47:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wc16tem-tafR for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A908821F8AC7 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.11] (adsl-67-127-55-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.127.55.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q61Gl2NE007555 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:47:02 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF07F01.4040401@bbiw.net> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:46:57 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Thaler Subject: Re: approval ands pre-approvals -> under WG page ? References: <24B20D14B2CD29478C8D5D6E9CBB29F625F2E3B1@Hermes.columbia.ads.sparta.com> , <4FEC3347.5020906@levkowetz.com> <24B20D14B2CD29478C8D5D6E9CBB29F625F2E466@Hermes.columbia.ads.sparta.com> <14345_1340955914_4FED5D0A_14345_2733_5_4FED5D43.9040506@orange.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B683272@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B683272@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 16:47:01 -0000 On 6/29/2012 3:54 PM, Dave Thaler wrote: > I agree that hiding it under "submit a draft" is not really discoverable. I note > that one path where it is discoverable is fromhttp://www.ietf.org : > "WG Chairs' Page" -> "IETF Internet-Draft Submission Status" -> "Approvals" One of the challenges in using the IETF pages is distinguishing among roles vs. objects vs. activities. User interface design typically tries to be consistent about this. The top-level entries on ietf.org are for objects, such as Working Groups and Internet Drafts, whereas down a level the co-located Datatracker is an object, yet Search and Submit are functions. And "WG Chairs" is a role, but WG Charters is about objects. That sort of variability of construct usage reduces predictability in usability. It makes it more difficult to know where something is likely to be. In other words, coherent UI design improves usability and ought to reduce the guessing game this thread has cited. Popular approaches to UI design, these days, are Activity-based design and Task-based design. They anticipate usage /sequences/. "Submit a draft" is a nice example of this. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From haibin.song@huawei.com Mon Jul 2 02:10:31 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6050021F8B97; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 02:10:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.173 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.173 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.426, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4APS65IzYj4V; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 02:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4619A21F8BA3; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 02:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO dfweml201-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.2.3-GA FastPath) with ESMTP id AHQ48437; Mon, 02 Jul 2012 05:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DFWEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.131) by dfweml201-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.9.107) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 02:09:59 -0700 Received: from SZXEML439-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.72.61.74) by dfweml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.131) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 02:10:00 -0700 Received: from SZXEML534-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.243]) by szxeml439-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.72.61.74]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 17:09:56 +0800 From: Songhaibin To: IETF Agenda , Working Group Chairs Subject: RE: 84th IETF DRAFT Agenda Thread-Topic: 84th IETF DRAFT Agenda Thread-Index: AQHNVYoYpKyCTIlLdUSji/J30fSmHZcVuW0g Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 09:09:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20120628235937.1046.89951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120628235937.1046.89951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.73] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "irsg@irtf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 09:10:31 -0000 U2luY2UgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG5vdCBtYW55IG9wZW4gaXNzdWVzIHRvIGRpc2N1c3MsIHdlIHdvdWxk IGxpa2UgdG8gY2FuY2VsIHRoZSBERUNBREUgV0cgbWVldGluZyBmb3IgVmFuY291dmVyLg0KDQot SGFpYmluDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogd2djaGFpcnMt Ym91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOndnY2hhaXJzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJl aGFsZg0KPiBPZiBJRVRGIEFnZW5kYQ0KPiBTZW50OiBGcmlkYXksIEp1bmUgMjksIDIwMTIgODow MCBBTQ0KPiBUbzogV29ya2luZyBHcm91cCBDaGFpcnMNCj4gQ2M6IGlyc2dAaXJ0Zi5vcmcNCj4g U3ViamVjdDogODR0aCBJRVRGIERSQUZUIEFnZW5kYQ0KPiANCj4gVGhlIERSQUZUIGFnZW5kYSBp cyByZWFkeSBmb3Igdmlld2luZy4gIFBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoZSBjdXRvZmYgZGF0ZSBmb3INCj4g cmVxdWVzdHMgdG8gcmVzY2hlZHVsZSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwIGFuZCBCb0YgbWVldGluZ3MgaXMg SnVseSAyLCAyMDEyDQo+IDE3OjAwIFBULiAgVGhlIGZpbmFsIGFnZW5kYSB3aWxsIGJlIHB1Ymxp c2hlZCBvbiBKdWx5IDYsIDIwMTIuDQo+IA0KPiBIVE1MIHZlcnNpb24gaXMgYnJva2VuIGFuZCB3 aWxsIGdldCBmaXhlZCBzb29uLg0KPiBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL21lZXRp bmcvODQvYWdlbmRhLnR4dA0KPiANCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tZWV0aW5nLzg0L2lu ZGV4Lmh0bWwNCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBUaGFua3MsDQo+IFdhbmRhDQo+IA0KPiBPbmx5IDMwIGRheXMg dW50aWwgVmFuY291dmVyLCA4NHRoIElFVEYhDQo+IE9ubGluZSByZWdpc3RyYXRpb24gZm9yIHRo ZSBJRVRGIG1lZXRpbmcgaXMgYXQ6DQo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWVldGluZy9yZWdp c3Rlci5odG1sDQo= From cjbc@it.uc3m.es Mon Jul 2 04:20:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82ACD21F8BF4; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 04:20:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rWzjUkUFItWL; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 04:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp03.uc3m.es (smtp03.uc3m.es [163.117.176.133]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E5021F8BED; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 04:20:46 -0700 (PDT) X-uc3m-safe: yes Received: from [163.117.139.72] (acorde.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: cjbc@smtp03.uc3m.es) by smtp03.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 14E5C9D725F; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 13:20:50 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1341228049.4617.10.camel@acorde.it.uc3m.es> Subject: Re: 84th IETF DRAFT Agenda From: Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs?= Bernardos Cano To: Ralph Droms Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:20:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6AF491B3-F0C6-44CB-ACB8-A5D335BBA30A@gmail.com> References: <20120628235937.1046.89951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6AF491B3-F0C6-44CB-ACB8-A5D335BBA30A@gmail.com> Organization: Universidad Carlos III de Madrid Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-GRbaO9ytxRy3OVdMkKeV" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.4.3-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1224-6.8.0.1017-19012.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--13.420-7.0-31-1 X-imss-scan-details: No--13.420-7.0-31-1 Cc: Working Group Chairs , IETF Agenda , Internet Group Research Steering X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: cjbc@it.uc3m.es List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 11:20:48 -0000 --=-GRbaO9ytxRy3OVdMkKeV Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ralph, all, Sorry for not commenting on this before. If DMM -- which I participate and where I might be presenting a draft -- is moved to first slot on Tuesday I'd have a conflict with P2PSIP (that I co-chair). If it is not possible to change this or it is complicated, I think I could try to ask DMM chairs to schedule my (still potential) presentation to the second slot, and in this case avoid the collision with P2PSIP. Thanks, Carlos On Fri, 2012-06-29 at 17:13 -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: > Hearing no objections, Brian and I request the following changes: >=20 > 1. HOMENET -> T/1520 > 2. DHC -> M/0900 > 3. DMM -> T/0900 >=20 > - Ralph >=20 --=20 Carlos Jes=C3=BAs Bernardos Cano http://www.netcoms.net GPG FP: D29B 0A6A 639A A561 93CA 4D55 35DC BA4D D170 4F67 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ IEEE Network Special Issue on Video over Mobile Networks http://dl.comsoc.org/livepubs/ni/info/cfp/cfpnetwork0313.htm=20 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --=-GRbaO9ytxRy3OVdMkKeV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAk/xhBEACgkQNdy6TdFwT2dkrACdHlBzBG/O9qaT5EzGK5YTNLLQ j24An2KuFMhi6F4O0kYFB2N46LQrdq4d =EGcW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-GRbaO9ytxRy3OVdMkKeV-- From rdroms.ietf@gmail.com Mon Jul 2 06:07:11 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A37A21F86B6 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 06:07:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.224 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aS4s-uJ6pMaS for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 06:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-f172.google.com (mail-qc0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F8F21F85E1 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 06:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qcac10 with SMTP id c10so2095445qca.31 for ; Mon, 02 Jul 2012 06:07:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=HcXZnDZ7Dee3Dq3oHWympkbAaVd9PgDRmifEDOjexg4=; b=WEgV7Nc3jPVL2ubOZjM/kF454t8l+LPDKjt2K7MtxpmbwOLntpUJGnzu5GJrEeqbdk FQ0PBKWvo5MnIAqOgdpIwES3g82aZrQhXCUR1mpCgpFjRUmYwb5vK18Tyfc65YpvR8JS dBiXrRYna4KQ6q3GRr5fFjJd50PMCOMVer2aLwrwNfupkKSQ0fBVhOydCmlt+//9BTa/ aFEo4pZtxr5NrSCgGgzgFjM+NWfGOk3NZ3tWisHVSSjD5dQVaOBBpzbf3Wjs66bk0kRQ bbvGN7rqx90E961nlB4x9M2Mp0ZBA+IFJ4QikLrhZx38DZBtOmq5W8JLcVftNaDy4mF6 3JRQ== Received: by 10.229.135.77 with SMTP id m13mr6533697qct.12.1341234434873; Mon, 02 Jul 2012 06:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-rdroms-8916.cisco.com (rtp-isp-nat1.cisco.com. [64.102.254.33]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y10sm27628937qan.9.2012.07.02.06.07.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 02 Jul 2012 06:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: 84th IETF DRAFT Agenda Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <1341228049.4617.10.camel@acorde.it.uc3m.es> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 09:07:10 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <087C3AB6-4DCD-411F-BE62-BB37CA46BD39@gmail.com> References: <20120628235937.1046.89951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6AF491B3-F0C6-44CB-ACB8-A5D335BBA30A@gmail.com> <1341228049.4617.10.camel@acorde.it.uc3m.es> To: cjbc@it.uc3m.es X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: Working Group Chairs , Internet Group Research Steering , int-ads@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:07:11 -0000 Carlos - thanks for catching that conflict. I'll take a look at the = schedule to see if there is an obvious way to avoid it. We may have to = take you up on the offer to present your draft in the second half of the = dmm WG meeting. - Ralph On Jul 2, 2012, at 7:20 AM 7/2/12, Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano wrote: > Hi Ralph, all, >=20 > Sorry for not commenting on this before. If DMM -- which I participate > and where I might be presenting a draft -- is moved to first slot on > Tuesday I'd have a conflict with P2PSIP (that I co-chair). >=20 > If it is not possible to change this or it is complicated, I think I > could try to ask DMM chairs to schedule my (still potential) > presentation to the second slot, and in this case avoid the collision > with P2PSIP. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Carlos >=20 > On Fri, 2012-06-29 at 17:13 -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: >> Hearing no objections, Brian and I request the following changes: >>=20 >> 1. HOMENET -> T/1520 >> 2. DHC -> M/0900 >> 3. DMM -> T/0900 >>=20 >> - Ralph >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano http://www.netcoms.net > GPG FP: D29B 0A6A 639A A561 93CA 4D55 35DC BA4D D170 4F67 > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > IEEE Network Special Issue on > Video over Mobile Networks > http://dl.comsoc.org/livepubs/ni/info/cfp/cfpnetwork0313.htm=20 > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From rdroms.ietf@gmail.com Mon Jul 2 07:07:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF4B21F8694 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:07:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.866 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.866 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.133, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 518jevEYMwRc for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com (mail-yx0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E811321F8638 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yenq13 with SMTP id q13so4579713yen.31 for ; Mon, 02 Jul 2012 07:07:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=TjaEth4+K/eLpnPGzmLV5vyT9gBP1ZiCvh/OaIGcicE=; b=F0ZWzff3tUz8he8tc8/8Pv/mi0/aEPThmKXYEXfS0JOCLU2e04rohzSYGwLwDSGxwk WmvTMNtocC9dz6U6I4+l/1iCLSTormpxzjResEDbywZa6BNhWzEAb3gSzTqAf5q8EqCC kqTolcqngZEI8CPpL0N6FK461F02D7N784RuxBkB3Lhzu/BVNrtHpR7DbFGTr3UAOrhN XrW3Q6tPs6CqRx9XZ2Uwt47UQcD/ykKKfhOrBZiXVlC+JWgEU3q+UyzeDDgF3jP4+kWF vI0hNbDVCEpZKPN1z7Ur7A97EmgJAPPTWFHwYhYuZtVvyC6mEtioDWTCIyCv45GMa16x Df1A== Received: by 10.236.78.227 with SMTP id g63mr15334237yhe.87.1341238054777; Mon, 02 Jul 2012 07:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:420:2481:20:252b:68d0:aedd:ccd2? ([2001:420:2481:20:252b:68d0:aedd:ccd2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c13sm11480771anm.13.2012.07.02.07.07.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 02 Jul 2012 07:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: 84th IETF DRAFT Agenda Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <087C3AB6-4DCD-411F-BE62-BB37CA46BD39@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 10:07:27 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20120628235937.1046.89951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6AF491B3-F0C6-44CB-ACB8-A5D335BBA30A@gmail.com> <1341228049.4617.10.camel@acorde.it.uc3m.es> <087C3AB6-4DCD-411F-BE62-BB37CA46BD39@gmail.com> To: cjbc@it.uc3m.es X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: Working Group Chairs , Internet Group Research Steering , int-ads@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 14:07:33 -0000 Carlos - I don't have easy access to the p2psip conflict list. Would = M-1300 work?=20 - Ralph On Jul 2, 2012, at 9:07 AM 7/2/12, Ralph Droms wrote: > Carlos - thanks for catching that conflict. I'll take a look at the = schedule to see if there is an obvious way to avoid it. We may have to = take you up on the offer to present your draft in the second half of the = dmm WG meeting. >=20 > - Ralph >=20 > On Jul 2, 2012, at 7:20 AM 7/2/12, Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano = wrote: >=20 >> Hi Ralph, all, >>=20 >> Sorry for not commenting on this before. If DMM -- which I = participate >> and where I might be presenting a draft -- is moved to first slot on >> Tuesday I'd have a conflict with P2PSIP (that I co-chair). >>=20 >> If it is not possible to change this or it is complicated, I think I >> could try to ask DMM chairs to schedule my (still potential) >> presentation to the second slot, and in this case avoid the collision >> with P2PSIP. >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> Carlos >>=20 >> On Fri, 2012-06-29 at 17:13 -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: >>> Hearing no objections, Brian and I request the following changes: >>>=20 >>> 1. HOMENET -> T/1520 >>> 2. DHC -> M/0900 >>> 3. DMM -> T/0900 >>>=20 >>> - Ralph >>>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano http://www.netcoms.net >> GPG FP: D29B 0A6A 639A A561 93CA 4D55 35DC BA4D D170 4F67 >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> IEEE Network Special Issue on >> Video over Mobile Networks >> http://dl.comsoc.org/livepubs/ni/info/cfp/cfpnetwork0313.htm=20 >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >=20 From cjbc@it.uc3m.es Mon Jul 2 07:59:26 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C007221F86B7 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:59:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ITJGB+1+0Oa6 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp01.uc3m.es (smtp01.uc3m.es [163.117.176.131]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4219221F869D for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:59:24 -0700 (PDT) X-uc3m-safe: yes Received: from [163.117.139.72] (acorde.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: cjbc@smtp01.uc3m.es) by smtp01.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 37D779E6A; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 16:59:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1341241168.4617.24.camel@acorde.it.uc3m.es> Subject: Re: 84th IETF DRAFT Agenda From: Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs?= Bernardos Cano To: Ralph Droms Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 16:59:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <20120628235937.1046.89951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6AF491B3-F0C6-44CB-ACB8-A5D335BBA30A@gmail.com> <1341228049.4617.10.camel@acorde.it.uc3m.es> <087C3AB6-4DCD-411F-BE62-BB37CA46BD39@gmail.com> Organization: Universidad Carlos III de Madrid Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-MhURT9SODq0nz+X+6ay0" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.4.3-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1224-6.8.0.1017-19012.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--29.074-7.0-31-1 X-imss-scan-details: No--29.074-7.0-31-1 Cc: Working Group Chairs , Internet Group Research Steering , int-ads@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: cjbc@it.uc3m.es List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 14:59:26 -0000 --=-MhURT9SODq0nz+X+6ay0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ralph, On Mon, 2012-07-02 at 10:07 -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: > Carlos - I don't have easy access to the p2psip conflict list. Would M-1= 300 work?=20 Yes, that'd be perfect. Thanks, Carlos >=20 > - Ralph >=20 > On Jul 2, 2012, at 9:07 AM 7/2/12, Ralph Droms wrote: >=20 > > Carlos - thanks for catching that conflict. I'll take a look at the sc= hedule to see if there is an obvious way to avoid it. We may have to take = you up on the offer to present your draft in the second half of the dmm WG = meeting. > >=20 > > - Ralph > >=20 > > On Jul 2, 2012, at 7:20 AM 7/2/12, Carlos Jes=C3=BAs Bernardos Cano wro= te: > >=20 > >> Hi Ralph, all, > >>=20 > >> Sorry for not commenting on this before. If DMM -- which I participate > >> and where I might be presenting a draft -- is moved to first slot on > >> Tuesday I'd have a conflict with P2PSIP (that I co-chair). > >>=20 > >> If it is not possible to change this or it is complicated, I think I > >> could try to ask DMM chairs to schedule my (still potential) > >> presentation to the second slot, and in this case avoid the collision > >> with P2PSIP. > >>=20 > >> Thanks, > >>=20 > >> Carlos > >>=20 > >> On Fri, 2012-06-29 at 17:13 -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: > >>> Hearing no objections, Brian and I request the following changes: > >>>=20 > >>> 1. HOMENET -> T/1520 > >>> 2. DHC -> M/0900 > >>> 3. DMM -> T/0900 > >>>=20 > >>> - Ralph > >>>=20 > >>=20 > >> --=20 > >> Carlos Jes=C3=BAs Bernardos Cano http://www.netcoms.net > >> GPG FP: D29B 0A6A 639A A561 93CA 4D55 35DC BA4D D170 4F67 > >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> IEEE Network Special Issue on > >> Video over Mobile Networks > >> http://dl.comsoc.org/livepubs/ni/info/cfp/cfpnetwork0313.htm=20 > >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >=20 >=20 --=20 Carlos Jes=C3=BAs Bernardos Cano http://www.netcoms.net GPG FP: D29B 0A6A 639A A561 93CA 4D55 35DC BA4D D170 4F67 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ IEEE Network Special Issue on Video over Mobile Networks http://dl.comsoc.org/livepubs/ni/info/cfp/cfpnetwork0313.htm=20 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --=-MhURT9SODq0nz+X+6ay0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAk/xt1AACgkQNdy6TdFwT2da6QCfb08zRkheLP/twzbdjoTHacaZ rNoAoMm66xHGt2gzAhzDuGOWF1bxbVqK =rrmy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-MhURT9SODq0nz+X+6ay0-- From dworley@avaya.com Mon Jul 2 11:32:31 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B0921F87BE for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 11:32:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.024 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.024 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.575, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lwUgh0P-eHJH for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 11:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com (de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com [198.152.71.100]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F96421F8474 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 11:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFAJPo8U+HCzI1/2dsb2JhbABFhVqvZoEfgQeCGAEBAQEDEhEEDUUQAgEIDQsCAiYCAgIwFRABAQQODRqHaZ10ih6THYEgjyMyYAObLIoLgns X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,512,1336363200"; d="scan'208";a="313544978" Received: from unknown (HELO p-us1-erheast.us1.avaya.com) ([135.11.50.53]) by de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com with ESMTP; 02 Jul 2012 14:29:50 -0400 Received: from dc-us1hcex2.us1.avaya.com (HELO DC-US1HCEX2.global.avaya.com) ([135.11.52.21]) by p-us1-erheast-out.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP; 02 Jul 2012 14:13:49 -0400 Received: from DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com ([169.254.2.202]) by DC-US1HCEX2.global.avaya.com ([::1]) with mapi; Mon, 2 Jul 2012 14:32:33 -0400 From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 14:32:31 -0400 Subject: Re: approval ands pre-approvals -> under WG page ? Thread-Topic: approval ands pre-approvals -> under WG page ? Thread-Index: Ac1YgQqAX/Ma6wH4RvWrzjmFi/uEsQ== Message-ID: References: <24B20D14B2CD29478C8D5D6E9CBB29F625F2E3B1@Hermes.columbia.ads.sparta.com> , <4FEC3347.5020906@levkowetz.com> <24B20D14B2CD29478C8D5D6E9CBB29F625F2E466@Hermes.columbia.ads.sparta.com> <14345_1340955914_4FED5D0A_14345_2733_5_4FED5D43.9040506@orange.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B683272@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4FF07F01.4040401@bbiw.net> In-Reply-To: <4FF07F01.4040401@bbiw.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 18:32:31 -0000 T24gU3VuLCAyMDEyLTA3LTAxIGF0IDA5OjQ2IC0wNzAwLCBEYXZlIENyb2NrZXIgd3JvdGU6Cj4g UG9wdWxhciBhcHByb2FjaGVzIHRvIFVJIGRlc2lnbiwgdGhlc2UgZGF5cywgYXJlIEFjdGl2aXR5 LWJhc2VkIGRlc2lnbiAKPiBhbmQgVGFzay1iYXNlZCBkZXNpZ24uICBUaGV5IGFudGljaXBhdGUg dXNhZ2UgL3NlcXVlbmNlcy8uICAiU3VibWl0IGEgCj4gZHJhZnQiIGlzIGEgbmljZSBleGFtcGxl IG9mIHRoaXMuCgpTdWJtaXR0aW5nIGEgZHJhZnQgdGhhdCBuZWVkcyBhcHByb3ZhbCBpcyBhbiBp bnRlcmVzdGluZ2x5IHRyZWFjaGVyb3VzCiJhY3Rpdml0eSIuICBGcm9tIGEgZ2xvYmFsIHBlcnNw ZWN0aXZlLCBwdXR0aW5nIHRoZSBpbml0aWFsIHVwbG9hZCBhbmQKdGhlIGFwcHJvdmFsIHRvZ2V0 aGVyIG1ha2VzIHNlbnNlIC0tIHRoZXkncmUgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUgc2FtZSBhY3Rpdml0eSwKYXJl bid0IHRoZXk/ICBCdXQgYW55IHNpbmdsZSB1c2VyIGRvZXMgb25seSBvbmUgb2YgdGhlc2UgYWN0 aW9ucy4KCkl0IHNlZW1zIHRvIG1lIHRoYXQgdGhlIG9iamVjdC1iYXNlZCBpZGVhICJJbnRlcm5l dCBkcmFmdHMiIGlzIGEgbGVzcwpjb25mdXNpbmcgYnVja2V0IGludG8gd2hpY2ggdG8gcHV0IGFs bCB0aGVzZSBhY3Rpb25zLgoKRGFsZQoK From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Tue Jul 3 03:32:31 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4380E21F86D6 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 03:32:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bNDNIfpSv-ep for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 03:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nominet.org.uk (mx4.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 597AB21F84F7 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 03:32:29 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:Received:From:To:Subject: Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:Date:Message-ID:Accept-Language: Content-Language:X-MS-Has-Attach:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=Lgk7xjaJAZJCwXDos9YGuCXq7ebXhmGhpoSt8FIRFNXp8G+MZGb6Qybf R3fyCQn2lrtzmPRi8XyXxqlpKSwHxPdAzR80Ubt4Fs5ZcRyf43pljAgkJ PMQBSRaGcI3kGG8; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1341311558; x=1372847558; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Subject:=20"Related=20drafts"=20?|Date:=20Tue,=203=20Jul =202012=2010:32:33=20+0000|Message-ID:=20<5F552F00-15B2-4 A22-8BFE-8387EC08E210@nominet.org.uk>|To:=20Working=20Gro up=20Chairs=20|MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=t3+Y2xo/12UMXkP+Z5MM3P2IZ1ccvq2hNNPJLz7wiuc=; b=fZK+oVH1IAW7doZ+wpS9JlIX5HA/1hx5bCoZMOLlVfN+YxhPIQEbDqor V4wZnmv0ib3+gR3/q3E5IQlMd+BsDbKuP4XLpyYFGTTHy7Vgud+glRvaF 5X3VyDflw6HAHg/; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,515,1336345200"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="33939891" Received: from wds-exc2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.145]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 03 Jul 2012 11:32:35 +0100 Received: from WDS-EXC1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::1593:1394:a91f:8f5f]) by wds-exc2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::7577:eaca:5241:25d4%19]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:32:35 +0100 From: Ray Bellis To: Working Group Chairs Subject: "Related drafts" ? Thread-Topic: "Related drafts" ? Thread-Index: AQHNWQcoKTy2r8Ici0OgN+oF7mqoRg== Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 10:32:33 +0000 Message-ID: <5F552F00-15B2-4A22-8BFE-8387EC08E210@nominet.org.uk> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_439F1E7D-8851-4A4C-98B6-A8430F83EFB3"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 10:32:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_439F1E7D-8851-4A4C-98B6-A8430F83EFB3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Is there a way to tag drafts that haven't got your working group name in = them as "related" ? As a followup to that, can a draft be tagged as "related" in more than = one working group? Ray --Apple-Mail=_439F1E7D-8851-4A4C-98B6-A8430F83EFB3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAk/yykEACgkQ+cr96znPxN6QdwCfT/O0v3b9ezmZoDKBXzJ6onC9 RyUAmwdYlZKPD+wdTI0M9Z47UGQiYz16 =MXEp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_439F1E7D-8851-4A4C-98B6-A8430F83EFB3-- From loa@pi.nu Tue Jul 3 03:35:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A7C21F86FC for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 03:35:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yxlbWeMUCR2H for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.pi.nu (mail.pi.nu [194.71.127.148]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F4C21F8802 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.64] (81-236-221-144-no93.tbcn.telia.com [81.236.221.144]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by mail.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7C892A8003 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 12:35:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4FF2CB0D.7000805@pi.nu> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 12:35:57 +0200 From: Loa Andersson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: "Related drafts" ? References: <5F552F00-15B2-4A22-8BFE-8387EC08E210@nominet.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <5F552F00-15B2-4A22-8BFE-8387EC08E210@nominet.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 10:35:53 -0000 ray, I don't know - what I do today is to the to tell the authors to republish wit the name I want (i.e. including the wg name). Normally takes 20 mins, after that I send a replacement mail to the iesg-secretary. /Loa On 2012-07-03 12:32, Ray Bellis wrote: > Is there a way to tag drafts that haven't got your working group name in them as "related" ? > > As a followup to that, can a draft be tagged as "related" in more than one working group? > > Ray > -- Loa Andersson email: loa.andersson@ericsson.com Sr Strategy and Standards Manager loa@pi.nu Ericsson Inc phone: +46 10 717 52 13 +46 767 72 92 13 From dcrocker@bbiw.net Tue Jul 3 08:39:11 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABB721F873A for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 08:39:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.413 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.413 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jmdx4kPq7VZR for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 08:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF3F21F8750 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 08:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.11] (adsl-67-127-55-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.127.55.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q63FdIqW031788 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 08:39:18 -0700 Message-ID: <4FF31223.1070609@bbiw.net> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 08:39:15 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Working Group Chairs Subject: Re: "Related drafts" ? References: <5F552F00-15B2-4A22-8BFE-8387EC08E210@nominet.org.uk> <4FF2CB0D.7000805@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: <4FF2CB0D.7000805@pi.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 03 Jul 2012 08:39:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 15:39:11 -0000 This sounds like a scenario that would be adequately handled by documenting the sequence on the web page, rather than modifying the tool. Both reduce the expertise needed by chairs, but the former is a lot cheaper (and more flexible to change.) d/ On 7/3/2012 3:35 AM, Loa Andersson wrote: > ray, > > I don't know - what I do today is to the to tell the authors to > republish wit the name I want (i.e. including the wg name). > > Normally takes 20 mins, after that I send a replacement mail to > the iesg-secretary. > > /Loa > > On 2012-07-03 12:32, Ray Bellis wrote: >> Is there a way to tag drafts that haven't got your working group name >> in them as "related" ? >> >> As a followup to that, can a draft be tagged as "related" in more than >> one working group? >> >> Ray >> > -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From agenda@ietf.org Tue Jul 3 11:49:07 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404BF11E80CD; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:49:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.873 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.873 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.726, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mCvtDm6MCaiV; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9235711E80C1; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:49:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Agenda To: Working Group Chairs Subject: IETF 84 - Working Group Chairs' Lunch Tutorial X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.30 Message-ID: <20120703184906.13086.66803.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 11:49:06 -0700 Cc: iab@iab.org, irsg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 18:49:07 -0000 Hi All, As usual, we will be holding a WG Chairs Training Lunch at IETF 84 in = Vancouver. All current WG chairs, BOF chairs, IESG members and IAB = members are welcome to attend. The lunch meeting will take place on = Wednesday, 1 August at 11:30am, location TBD, and a complementary lunch = will be provided. For this session, Michelle Cotton will talk about the IANA = considerations and what WG chairs need to know to write and to review = this section in their WG documents. There will also be time for = questions and answers. We hope this will help WG chairs do their jobs, meet other WG chairs, = and get a free lunch in the process. If you would like to attend this session, please RSVP to agenda@ietf.org = ASAP and the cutoff will be July 25, 2012. The location will be sent to tho= se who RSVP. Thanks, Wanda (on behalf of Mirjam Kuehne, Radia Perlman, & Edu Team) From lenny@juniper.net Tue Jul 3 11:55:52 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C5211E8178; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZApJolAgdPMu; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og102.obsmtp.com (exprod7og102.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.157]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0093511E8174; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob102.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT/NAQOqaXO6OU5mKrY8KkJkjZtZXObuw@postini.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2012 11:56:00 PDT Received: from magenta.juniper.net (172.17.27.123) by P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:55:11 -0700 Received: from eng-mail01.juniper.net (eng-mail01.juniper.net [172.17.28.114]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id q63ItAh40408; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:55:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lenny@juniper.net) Received: by eng-mail01.juniper.net (Postfix, from userid 1709) id 9A8381144F; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eng-mail01.juniper.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EB911141B; Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:55:10 -0700 From: Leonard Giuliano To: IETF Agenda Subject: Re: 84th IETF DRAFT Agenda In-Reply-To: <20120628235937.1046.89951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <20120703115421.P22678@eng-mail01.juniper.net> References: <20120628235937.1046.89951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Cc: Working Group Chairs X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 18:55:53 -0000 Multimob and Mboned are scheduled at the same time. Is it too late to make a change? On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, IETF Agenda wrote: -) The DRAFT agenda is ready for viewing. Please note the cutoff date for -) requests to reschedule Working Group and BoF meetings is July 2, 2012 -) 17:00 PT. The final agenda will be published on July 6, 2012. -) -) HTML version is broken and will get fixed soon. -) https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/84/agenda.txt -) -) http://www.ietf.org/meeting/84/index.html -) -) -) Thanks, -) Wanda -) -) Only 30 days until Vancouver, 84th IETF! -) Online registration for the IETF meeting is at: -) http://www.ietf.org/meeting/register.html -) From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Wed Jul 4 01:06:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815D121F87B8; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 01:06:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.223 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.223 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b-gjT2c6UCSt; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 01:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw7.ericsson.se (mailgw7.ericsson.se [193.180.251.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8331E21F870A; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 01:06:55 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-b7fb46d0000064f2-42-4ff3f9a3a867 Received: from esessmw0184.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw7.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id FC.78.25842.3A9F3FF4; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 10:06:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0184.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.264.0; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 10:06:58 +0200 Message-ID: <4FF3F9A0.7050309@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 10:06:56 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Working Group Chairs , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Datatracker "tracked" drafts X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrMJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre6Kn5/9Da706FtsPzKX0eL//imM DkweS5b8ZApgjOKySUnNySxLLdK3S+DKmLy9k7ngNEfFp/7zTA2MX9m6GDk5JARMJH6/ugZl i0lcuLceyObiEBI4xSgx69MRFpCEkMAyRol3p3JAbF4BbYmXT1qZQGwWARWJaQ++gDWzCVhI 3PzRCGaLCgRLTJt+jx2iXlDi5MwnYHNEBJIk2pZ0gMWFBVQlzq7+wAixWFLiXvtqsF5mAT2J KVdbGCFseYnmrbOZIW7Qlmho6mCdwMg/C8nYWUhaZiFpWcDIvIpRODcxMye93FwvtSgzubg4 P0+vOHUTIzDgDm75bbCDcdN9sUOM0hwsSuK8eqr7/YUE0hNLUrNTUwtSi+KLSnNSiw8xMnFw SjUwiqar25wwyalQTVjq91/iz0m1t2ffbuhO13abcqOk9jfz04nLMtI17HXP9E+RVVTcWymT 7TdlFqu04hmnhk2XXHTKllXazHUPzjjKvKNW9ZRxI9em1k39xx419T++ee+Afnq4Rvip/fIm OSrf/68/v2VlfFJ/VuafJQ2barhupn+buDW9f5qeEktxRqKhFnNRcSIAb8vnagYCAAA= X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 08:06:56 -0000 Hi, I am checking out this new community tracker "tracked" list. As a WG chair I apparently got in addition to my personal list also a per WG set of tracked documents. This has created a number of questions about the WG specific lists. 1. What is the visibility of these lists? Only for my co-chairs or can also other see them? 2. How do I add individual documents to these lists. Doing a search only enables me to add to the personal list, not a WG list what I can see. Does one have to take the draft filename and add that as a specific rule "All I-Ds that contain a particular text string in the name"? Thanks Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From cjbc@it.uc3m.es Wed Jul 4 02:25:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175FD21F87EC; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 02:25:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KVmI2QbKD9oa; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 02:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp02.uc3m.es (smtp02.uc3m.es [163.117.176.132]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54F121F87E2; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 02:25:53 -0700 (PDT) X-uc3m-safe: yes Received: from [163.117.139.72] (acorde.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: cjbc@smtp02.uc3m.es) by smtp02.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0DD7A766DCF; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 11:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1341393961.4617.172.camel@acorde.it.uc3m.es> Subject: P2PSIP change (84th IETF agenda) From: Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs?= Bernardos Cano To: IETF Agenda Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 11:26:01 +0200 Organization: Universidad Carlos III de Madrid Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Jn9Xh2M4bNT/dCVyKL3h" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.4.3-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1224-6.8.0.1017-19016.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--7.193-7.0-31-1 X-imss-scan-details: No--7.193-7.0-31-1 Cc: Working Group Chairs , p2psip-chairs@tools.ietf.org, rai-ads@tools.ietf.org, irsg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: cjbc@it.uc3m.es List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 09:25:55 -0000 --=-Jn9Xh2M4bNT/dCVyKL3h Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, In order to avoid a personal conflict between DMM and P2PSIP, I'd like to request the following change in the agenda: - Move P2PSIP to Tuesday 1300-1500. We don't need the full 2h slot, but this seems a good slot (only overlaps with ECRIT WG from RAI). Does anybody see/have a problem with this change? Thanks, Carlos --=20 Carlos Jes=C3=BAs Bernardos Cano http://www.netcoms.net GPG FP: D29B 0A6A 639A A561 93CA 4D55 35DC BA4D D170 4F67 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ IEEE Network Special Issue on Video over Mobile Networks http://dl.comsoc.org/livepubs/ni/info/cfp/cfpnetwork0313.htm=20 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --=-Jn9Xh2M4bNT/dCVyKL3h Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAk/0DCkACgkQNdy6TdFwT2dCqACggHfImaA5U6JAOA7qjvDasHZL 0uMAnA06mi302jZ6gXvMFUFT0BB4d5dY =vJ0P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Jn9Xh2M4bNT/dCVyKL3h-- From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com Wed Jul 4 03:34:26 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DDF21F87D6; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 03:34:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wUVaIoResozv; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 03:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC89921F87D1; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 03:34:24 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7fc16d000005db2-7a-4ff41c3aa49d Received: from esessmw0256.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 8E.D1.23986.A3C14FF4; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 12:34:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [131.160.36.52] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0256.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.97) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.264.0; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 12:34:34 +0200 Message-ID: <4FF41C39.1060306@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 13:34:33 +0300 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "cjbc@it.uc3m.es" , IETF Agenda Subject: Re: P2PSIP change (84th IETF agenda) References: <1341393961.4617.172.camel@acorde.it.uc3m.es> In-Reply-To: <1341393961.4617.172.camel@acorde.it.uc3m.es> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvra6VzBd/g8lfZS1+vQuyaN2xicni 6flWFov/z0+xWOzdPo/R4v/+KYwObB5Llvxk8pi88TCbx7frG1k9vlz+zBbAEsVlk5Kak1mW WqRvl8CV8evXZOaCe5wV63dVNTBO5+hi5OSQEDCReH5yAjOELSZx4d56ti5GLg4hgVOMEj+P X2WEcFYxSrw9vpQFpIpXQFti9rm3TCA2i4CKxImN88G62QQsJLbcug9WIyoQLDGv+yZUvaDE yZlPwGwRATeJ9Xc3s4MMZRY4zihxd8ddsEHCAroSt85uAysSErCUaFyyhA3E5hSwkvj+8iwT xHmSEvfaV4PFmQU0JVq3/2aHsOUlmrfOZobo1ZZY/qyFZQKj0Cwku2chaZmFpGUBI/MqRuHc xMyc9HIjvdSizOTi4vw8veLUTYzA8D+45bfqDsY750QOMUpzsCiJ81pv3eMvJJCeWJKanZpa kFoUX1Sak1p8iJGJg1OqgXGq+MS/LL7P3Jc95387P/0GV4VW6vwtDIytIhJry71/etdk7jn8 yall487Utb5OKiEHD3lVnTh7qv25+H+GeUVnDdcdZpxsM7Hj4lkeq2Q7f3b2wDOXT1uum9Yx debp0KebOXN1T6e+lfAx+r/EnJFdy03RMfTyqmjvS/dU21uqjeQvXNo55aASS3FGoqEWc1Fx IgBuBZ3+TQIAAA== Cc: Working Group Chairs , "p2psip-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "rai-ads@tools.ietf.org" , "irsg@irtf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 10:34:26 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, a P2PSIP-ECRIT conflict will most likely not work for Brian. So, don't do any change to the agenda yet. We will work with the P2PSIP chairs to find a better change. Cheers, Gonzalo On 04/07/2012 12:26 PM, Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano wrote: > Hi, > > In order to avoid a personal conflict between DMM and P2PSIP, I'd > like to request the following change in the agenda: > > - Move P2PSIP to Tuesday 1300-1500. We don't need the full 2h slot, > but this seems a good slot (only overlaps with ECRIT WG from RAI). > > Does anybody see/have a problem with this change? > > Thanks, > > Carlos > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJP9Bw5AAoJENEzUJhwP4c2VHUH/0T2zZPtuB/sroVyzo1sZWtB +3Az2X38wNlZQEAJhMGPfhnV4a9t336iMpIFi2PyfxPZxtxos1vT1wSyqPJjsiPD giVdhUk1eB5XaC+n5aQ6cJan7V1+jFXQdWpJ2/LgM640umWwO57sBwtiJRyKw4gz QvWBzuahwBrrgYy2kcRB2KwrBl4BLOH0xlDnhHdeMkUiTjWiPJITzh7c0+jaNQ+2 H/tdmmNfsr/jfpoH6RN+u06r8BdBcML6dsE/8fsMEt4782pszDCRRPgjfHdheTAO wgE/h2GdMJzHL+VHwnogb8/08cszByH0snxHWOATk14P7nHeDXzLr0oR+Ux0380= =9zcT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From housley@vigilsec.com Wed Jul 4 07:59:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD1021F8844; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:59:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.312, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id djGx9vkLtRu6; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.smetech.net (mail.smetech.net [208.254.26.82]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AB721F86CE; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [208.254.26.81]) by odin.smetech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55FDD9A472A; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 10:59:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smetech.net Received: from odin.smetech.net ([208.254.26.82]) by localhost (ronin.smetech.net [208.254.26.81]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TyaZmcOf5q15; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 10:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.100] (pool-96-255-39-25.washdc.fios.verizon.net [96.255.39.25]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by odin.smetech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719D5F24040; Wed, 4 Jul 2012 10:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Datatracker "tracked" drafts Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <4FF3F9A0.7050309@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 10:58:02 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4FF3F9A0.7050309@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: Working Group Chairs , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 14:59:06 -0000 Magnus: Did you look at RFC 6293? This feature allows people to track documents = of interest to a particular WG. Russ On Jul 4, 2012, at 4:06 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I am checking out this new community tracker "tracked" list. As a WG > chair I apparently got in addition to my personal list also a per WG = set > of tracked documents. This has created a number of questions about the > WG specific lists. >=20 > 1. What is the visibility of these lists? Only for my co-chairs or can > also other see them? >=20 > 2. How do I add individual documents to these lists. Doing a search = only > enables me to add to the personal list, not a WG list what I can see. > Does one have to take the draft filename and add that as a specific = rule > "All I-Ds that contain a particular text string in the name"? >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Jul 5 01:31:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0D221F85D2; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 01:31:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rlowX7rPuQTq; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 01:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw7.ericsson.se (mailgw7.ericsson.se [193.180.251.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518F321F85C6; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 01:31:30 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-b7fb46d0000064f2-51-4ff550efd3d8 Received: from esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw7.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 8B.C3.25842.FE055FF4; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:31:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.264.0; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:31:42 +0200 Message-ID: <4FF550ED.2060703@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:31:41 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ Housley Subject: Re: Datatracker "tracked" drafts References: <4FF3F9A0.7050309@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrALMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre77gK/+BncPyVm8enGT3WL7kbmM Fv/3T2F0YPZYsuQnk8eqO19YA5iiuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0SuDI6391kLJgmXHG4bx1bA+Ns/i5G Tg4JAROJHYcfMUPYYhIX7q1n62Lk4hASOMUosX52IyOEs4xRYtKTbkaQKl4BbYnrbauZQGwW ARWJI9/WgdlsAhYSN380soHYogLBEtOm32OHqBeUODnzCQuILSKgLvF3/gWgOAcHs0CSxKpn dSBhYQFNidWvvoKNERKIl7hw5gQbSAmngIPEj35ziNskJe61rwabziygJzHlagsjhC0v0bx1 NjNEq7ZEQ1MH6wRGoVlIFs9C0jILScsCRuZVjMK5iZk56eXmeqlFmcnFxfl5esWpmxiBoXxw y2+DHYyb7osdYpTmYFES59VT3e8vJJCeWJKanZpakFoUX1Sak1p8iJGJg1OqgVHlfFTxxXfO DrWndknN/njxc570lMKCv3lGnfuYssRm6ngllGny6uZ7Rp5cO0fpney5e79EMxPiV/xetdn/ TW9/Nk/3hNidXZ0GYRUZZc3/JNK2u7/8eb+S+03cc8Yt5knuO+cxVMj8ST3FqDORx6Vk6tHK XxLfZ2yVi1i183P+mT/u/W9t2JVYijMSDbWYi4oTAYCrqwszAgAA Cc: Working Group Chairs , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 08:31:32 -0000 On 2012-07-04 16:58, Russ Housley wrote: > Magnus: > > Did you look at RFC 6293? This feature allows people to track > documents of interest to a particular WG. I have now looked at RFC 6293 and understand the intention. The WG lists would by my interpretation be shared when it comes to editing between the WG chairs. I as chair can provide the link (from export tab) to the WG and they will see the same list but not edit it. I think question 2 below still is valid and I would like to get an answer if this is intentional like this, or simply a failure for the "add" in the search to take into account the fact that WG chairs have more than one list, i.e. their personal one. > > On Jul 4, 2012, at 4:06 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> >> 2. How do I add individual documents to these lists. Doing a search >> only enables me to add to the personal list, not a WG list what I >> can see. Does one have to take the draft filename and add that as a >> specific rule "All I-Ds that contain a particular text string in >> the name"? I also have a feature request: If I as WG chair like to make the WG list made available where it is directly associated by the WG. I would expect that this page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/ does contain a link to RTCWEB WG list. The reason is that I as WG chair don't want to have to periodically inform the WG participants about the pages existence. This should be done using proper access control to the list so that it isn't visible by anyone else then the WG chairs unless the box: "make list publicly visible" is checked. When checked the page (public non-readable) is linked also from the WG tracker. I do have to note that the datatracker these days contains so many features that a user guide to it is really needed. Or rather a couple of different. One for the general public, one for the WG chair tracker and one for ADs and then we have the administration of it. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From henrik@levkowetz.com Thu Jul 5 02:17:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6FD21F8624; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 02:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.44 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.161, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sdPb0abF3EUj; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 02:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (unknown [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2:225:90ff:fe34:720e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 953D121F8540; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 02:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a01:3f0:1:0:1436:2887:d954:ea31] (port=53657 helo=brunello.netnod.se) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1SmiBv-0000XU-3q; Thu, 05 Jul 2012 11:17:39 +0200 Message-ID: <4FF55BA6.7030303@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 11:17:26 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:10.0.5) Gecko/20120601 Thunderbird/10.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Magnus Westerlund References: <4FF3F9A0.7050309@ericsson.com> <4FF550ED.2060703@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4FF550ED.2060703@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig58FFA04C27DF0FA3F9655190" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 2a01:3f0:1:0:1436:2887:d954:ea31 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com, housley@vigilsec.com, wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker "tracked" drafts X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on grenache.tools.ietf.org) Cc: Working Group Chairs , Russ Housley , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 09:17:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig58FFA04C27DF0FA3F9655190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Magnus, On 2012-07-05 10:31 Magnus Westerlund said: > On 2012-07-04 16:58, Russ Housley wrote: >> Magnus: >> >> Did you look at RFC 6293? This feature allows people to track >> documents of interest to a particular WG. >=20 > I have now looked at RFC 6293 and understand the intention. The WG list= s > would by my interpretation be shared when it comes to editing between > the WG chairs. I as chair can provide the link (from export tab) to the= > WG and they will see the same list but not edit it. >=20 > I think question 2 below still is valid and I would like to get an > answer if this is intentional like this, or simply a failure for the > "add" in the search to take into account the fact that WG chairs have > more than one list, i.e. their personal one. >=20 >> >> On Jul 4, 2012, at 4:06 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>> >>> 2. How do I add individual documents to these lists. Doing a search >>> only enables me to add to the personal list, not a WG list what I >>> can see. Does one have to take the draft filename and add that as a >>> specific rule "All I-Ds that contain a particular text string in >>> the name"? It seems that would be the appropriate way of doing it, yes. >=20 > I also have a feature request: >=20 > If I as WG chair like to make the WG list made available where it is > directly associated by the WG. I would expect that this page: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/ >=20 > does contain a link to RTCWEB WG list. The reason is that I as WG chair= > don't want to have to periodically inform the WG participants about the= > pages existence. Agreed. I realized that this would be a good feature, too, yesterday. > This should be done using proper access control to the list so that it > isn't visible by anyone else then the WG chairs unless the box: "make > list publicly visible" is checked. When checked the page (public > non-readable) is linked also from the WG tracker. Umm. This is a completely new requirement going far outside the framework set up by 6293, and I don't understand the background for this. What is so special about a list of tracked documents maintained for the WG? Are you planning to use this as a planning tool exclusively for the chairs? If so, I think that's a separate feature request, which should not be conflated with the community I-D tracking feature. Henrik > I do have to note that the datatracker these days contains so many > features that a user guide to it is really needed. Or rather a couple o= f > different. One for the general public, one for the WG chair tracker and= > one for ADs and then we have the administration of it. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 --------------enig58FFA04C27DF0FA3F9655190 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEARECAAYFAk/1W7IACgkQeVhrtTJkXCNMOACfbTOG0sh/Aj9WjWPtex8sWIff c4EAoLaq3QzSz0fK3OpweztS+cF0eWYS =46UP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig58FFA04C27DF0FA3F9655190-- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Thu Jul 5 07:16:21 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F7E21F8655; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 07:16:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QcHi-Kz1qsWD; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 07:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F33221F84FB; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 07:16:19 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7fc26d000005908-2d-4ff5a1bf1aff Received: from esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C1.24.22792.FB1A5FF4; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:16:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.264.0; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:16:31 +0200 Message-ID: <4FF5A1BE.6000501@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:16:30 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker "tracked" drafts References: <4FF3F9A0.7050309@ericsson.com> <4FF550ED.2060703@ericsson.com> <4FF55BA6.7030303@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <4FF55BA6.7030303@levkowetz.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrDLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre7+hV/9Dc4cMrZobjvEZvHqxU12 i+1H5jJa/N8/hdGBxWPJkp9MHsvn72D0WHXnC2sAcxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxrf5rxkL2uUq eiaXNjBeFO9i5OSQEDCRaLk4gQ3CFpO4cG89kM3FISRwilFi6sxXUM4yRolPCz6wglTxCmhL 7Nh/nBHEZhFQkVh08BgTiM0mYCFx80cj2CRRgWCJadPvsUPUC0qcnPmEBcQWAertu/GHFWQo s0Ano0TLk6/MXYwcHMIClhKnN0dDLFvAKDG/9ynYUE4BXYmDK9vYIc6TlLjXvhpsAbOAnsSU qy2MELa8RPPW2cwgthDQgoamDtYJjEKzkOyehaRlFpKWBYzMqxiFcxMzc9LLDfVSizKTi4vz 8/SKUzcxAkP84JbfujsYT50TOcQozcGiJM7LlbTfX0ggPbEkNTs1tSC1KL6oNCe1+BAjEwen VAOjEA8Xww/Z4u9n5U/d++LHIa28TCEs9Cfj2Qdb9IxenrBir2La6Rk92+d3uItS7NJ1JxP3 T7A8J8k/y2FFxC1W3ukud1WNGTls3i1OOGRx9qv4dEWuWHMjveJ9h1bWcLRW9/rdO/jAxfHa raem+TpuO6Ya1q59OuOKaKXk/p2LH+bs2HZq5rUGJZbijERDLeai4kQAz5t2qD8CAAA= Cc: Working Group Chairs , Russ Housley , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 14:16:21 -0000 On 2012-07-05 11:17, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Magnus, > > On 2012-07-05 10:31 Magnus Westerlund said: >> On 2012-07-04 16:58, Russ Housley wrote: >>> Magnus: >>> >>> Did you look at RFC 6293? This feature allows people to track >>> documents of interest to a particular WG. >> >> I have now looked at RFC 6293 and understand the intention. The >> WG lists would by my interpretation be shared when it comes to >> editing between the WG chairs. I as chair can provide the link >> (from export tab) to the WG and they will see the same list but >> not edit it. >> >> I think question 2 below still is valid and I would like to get >> an answer if this is intentional like this, or simply a failure >> for the "add" in the search to take into account the fact that WG >> chairs have more than one list, i.e. their personal one. >> >>> >>> On Jul 4, 2012, at 4:06 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>>> >>>> 2. How do I add individual documents to these lists. Doing a >>>> search only enables me to add to the personal list, not a WG >>>> list what I can see. Does one have to take the draft filename >>>> and add that as a specific rule "All I-Ds that contain a >>>> particular text string in the name"? > > It seems that would be the appropriate way of doing it, yes. I hope we will see something less cluncky in the future. > >> >> I also have a feature request: >> >> If I as WG chair like to make the WG list made available where it >> is directly associated by the WG. I would expect that this page: >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/ >> >> does contain a link to RTCWEB WG list. The reason is that I as WG >> chair don't want to have to periodically inform the WG >> participants about the pages existence. > > Agreed. I realized that this would be a good feature, too, > yesterday. > >> This should be done using proper access control to the list so >> that it isn't visible by anyone else then the WG chairs unless >> the box: "make list publicly visible" is checked. When checked >> the page (public non-readable) is linked also from the WG >> tracker. > > Umm. This is a completely new requirement going far outside the > framework set up by 6293, and I don't understand the background > for this. What is so special about a list of tracked documents > maintained for the WG? Maybe my suggestion is overstating the actual requirement. The requirement from me as a chair would be the following: With a simple click enable that the WG draft list maintained by the chair is made accessible in a read-only fashion to the WG participants and discoverable from the WG's page in the datatracker. > > Are you planning to use this as a planning tool exclusively for > the chairs? If so, I think that's a separate feature request, > which should not be conflated with the community I-D tracking > feature. I will discuss this with my co-chairs. But I can see that for example for RTCWEB where we have a large number of dependencies on ongoing work we would add the drafts our WG drafts depends on into this page and provide the page publicly for any WG member to easily use as a point of reference for the state of these dependencies. If not I guess I would likely still want to use it with similar content for us chairs to track the progress. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com Thu Jul 5 09:54:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5EC21F86B7 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:54:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.207 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.207 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TabsZ6WjWMWr for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1177921F86C7 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:54:46 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7fc26d000005908-70-4ff5c6e35f25 Received: from esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D8.B6.22792.3E6C5FF4; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 18:55:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [131.160.126.161] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.264.0; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 18:54:58 +0200 Message-ID: <4FF5C6E2.30808@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 19:54:58 +0300 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Working Group Chairs Subject: Re: P2PSIP change (84th IETF agenda) References: <1341393961.4617.172.camel@acorde.it.uc3m.es> <4FF41C39.1060306@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4FF41C39.1060306@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre6TY1/9DU6UWbTu2MRk8fR8K4vF /+enWCz2bp/HaPF//xRGB1aPJUt+MnlM3niYzePb9Y2sHl8uf2YLYInisklJzcksSy3St0vg yrj05wN7wQPOigtTV7E0ME5i72Lk5JAQMJF4+7WXBcIWk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DAKUaJthVbWSCc NYwSO08cZASp4hXQlPjdcIINxGYRUJHY0fQIzGYTsJDYcus+2CRRgWCJed03WSDqBSVOznwC ZosI6Eh0XDzMBDKUWeAQo8SHN2eZQRLCAroSt85uAysSEoiU2DXjItBQDg5OoIYtD9ggrpOU uNe+GsxmBrqhdftvdghbXqJ562xmiFZtieXPWlgmMArNQrJ6FpKWWUhaFjAyr2IUzk3MzEkv N9RLLcpMLi7Oz9MrTt3ECAz6g1t+6+5gPHVO5BCjNAeLkjgvV9J+fyGB9MSS1OzU1ILUovii 0pzU4kOMTBycUg2MQexKbMXxs1sV9Sqn77jjWMLgrvJFJDPfeuG7/Htb5i5kLTkYs2Pxn869 nwpZtMqYnupsXOF+nZPV6UCg9Z/AiUZlc4/mftu9rcx/Q1BWYd/Fuj0+MhwXDhdP+r3z+OJl RxxdrfQezt8huu2Y+szdjT9m+8a/aiz8GON9SZY9ZYWWAEPJrpk7lFiKMxINtZiLihMBBFZg tEgCAAA= Cc: "p2psip-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "rai-ads@tools.ietf.org" , "irsg@irtf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 16:54:48 -0000 Hi, after analyzing the issue, we are going to move the P2PSIP session to the Tuesday 15:20 slot instead. 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II APP dsii Data Set Identifier Interoperability BOF RAI xmpp Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol WG RTG pce Path Computation Element WG RTG rtgwg Routing Area Working Group WG SEC mile Managed Incident Lightweight Exchange WG TSV cdni Content Delivery Networks Interconnection WG Cheers, Gonzalo On 04/07/2012 1:34 PM, Gonzalo Camarillo wrote: > Hi, > > a P2PSIP-ECRIT conflict will most likely not work for Brian. So, > don't do any change to the agenda yet. We will work with the P2PSIP > chairs to find a better change. > > Cheers, > > Gonzalo > > On 04/07/2012 12:26 PM, Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano wrote: >> Hi, > >> In order to avoid a personal conflict between DMM and P2PSIP, >> I'd like to request the following change in the agenda: > >> - Move P2PSIP to Tuesday 1300-1500. We don't need the full 2h >> slot, but this seems a good slot (only overlaps with ECRIT WG >> from RAI). > >> Does anybody see/have a problem with this change? > >> Thanks, > >> Carlos > > From sshepler@microsoft.com Thu Jul 5 15:14:05 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E17321F85A4; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:14:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZTOqlaCt-AUt; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from am1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (am1ehsobe003.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.206]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA0D21F8596; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail94-am1-R.bigfish.com (10.3.201.236) by AM1EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (10.3.204.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 22:12:11 +0000 Received: from mail94-am1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail94-am1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACAB2004A1; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 22:12:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:131.107.125.8; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:TK5EX14MLTC102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: 0 X-BigFish: VS0(zzc85fhzz1202hzz8275bh8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839hd25hf0ah107ah) Received-SPF: pass (mail94-am1: domain of microsoft.com designates 131.107.125.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=131.107.125.8; envelope-from=sshepler@microsoft.com; helo=TK5EX14MLTC102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ; icrosoft.com ; Received: from mail94-am1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail94-am1 (MessageSwitch) id 1341526329698594_30055; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 22:12:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AM1EHSMHS013.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.201.243]) by mail94-am1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E6241E0262; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 22:12:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TK5EX14MLTC102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (131.107.125.8) by AM1EHSMHS013.bigfish.com (10.3.207.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 22:12:09 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC254.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.2.115]) by TK5EX14MLTC102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.79.180]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.005; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 22:14:11 +0000 From: Spencer Shepler To: "agenda@ietf.org" , "'IETF WG Chairs' (wgchairs@ietf.org)" Subject: Possible to move NFSv4 to later in the week? Thread-Topic: Possible to move NFSv4 to later in the week? Thread-Index: Ac1a+zBCB8gTquW1TpWBS0HM5Z9dBQ== Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 22:14:10 +0000 Message-ID: <039D3CB813A4D544863BB7D4F46A18570418F5F5@TK5EX14MBXC254.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.70] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_039D3CB813A4D544863BB7D4F46A18570418F5F5TK5EX14MBXC254r_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 07:28:43 -0700 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 22:14:05 -0000 --_000_039D3CB813A4D544863BB7D4F46A18570418F5F5TK5EX14MBXC254r_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have received some last minute feedback from WG members that our M= onday slot is not going to work for them (coming off other travel...). Is there a slot that we can move to Tuesday or later? We would be willing = to shift from a 2.5 hour to a 2 hour slot to accommodate. Spencer --_000_039D3CB813A4D544863BB7D4F46A18570418F5F5TK5EX14MBXC254r_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

I have received some last minute <sigh> feedba= ck from WG members that our Monday slot is not going to work for them (comi= ng off other travel…).

Is there a slot that we can move to Tuesday or later= ?  We would be willing to shift from a 2.5 hour to a 2 hour slot to ac= commodate.

 

Spencer

 

--_000_039D3CB813A4D544863BB7D4F46A18570418F5F5TK5EX14MBXC254r_-- From d3e3e3@gmail.com Fri Jul 6 07:56:51 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C638C21F8712; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UjGmbc86EwpR; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com (mail-yw0-f44.google.com [209.85.213.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C2621F8707; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yhq56 with SMTP id 56so11109448yhq.31 for ; Fri, 06 Jul 2012 07:57:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JkjRTknoh7lbynY6p9xuZJpawXy8wU1oMWsgW/9ZLWU=; b=BETu8BUCub/OtPpSmEaZ1irQX83BeTBmhzGi2BufGyAk2SeyYv8rZT6qJzeKPwj7f2 pFd5zW5G4R2ihnrQj/0JtxtABKR1/Mgqlmkf0ZCAGVX4HtUCU8ElMO20Rju8r5+askxb OWG8YzCw8UMHPxkraeFYPQJZ8WuQxxJyiyV3NK8LRuAwNJwBOIsvkh6JtGdeHY4V29Ex RYiGUU5+vhUBgx/6Su7ox2SQ8/NoHFCJ1sTsw+4IfwMjhpCPuB9mo1imNpDu7OTyyiWQ 2GpRfJLayOngI4ay1s7Nuvj4HZdsFd6ElZrK0Ogw1nVOA8bIJd4L11/vXL1YqCPn0EUS DaCw== Received: by 10.50.194.200 with SMTP id hy8mr2616683igc.58.1341586626670; Fri, 06 Jul 2012 07:57:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.16.227 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 07:56:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <039D3CB813A4D544863BB7D4F46A18570418F5F5@TK5EX14MBXC254.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <039D3CB813A4D544863BB7D4F46A18570418F5F5@TK5EX14MBXC254.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 10:56:46 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Possible to move NFSv4 to later in the week? To: Spencer Shepler , Erik Nordmark Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "'IETF WG Chairs' \(wgchairs@ietf.org\)" , "agenda@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 14:56:52 -0000 Perhaps we can swap NSFv4 and the first TRILL slot Thursday afternoon? Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Spencer Shepler wr= ote: > > > I have received some last minute feedback from WG members that our > Monday slot is not going to work for them (coming off other travel=85). > > Is there a slot that we can move to Tuesday or later? We would be willin= g > to shift from a 2.5 hour to a 2 hour slot to accommodate. > > > > Spencer > > From spencer.shepler@gmail.com Fri Jul 6 11:19:49 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6594111E80A1; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 11:19:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Y+nmyBfIbz1; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 11:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f172.google.com (mail-ob0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9375411E8079; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 11:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbwc20 with SMTP id wc20so17255754obb.31 for ; Fri, 06 Jul 2012 11:20:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VEi4dTboQ2za+sOdZxV0BMnhbFbz6XTlBsKVjdsV51g=; b=cZwlj8ilF7zCBClFWXi9WngY806yf7hWk+fnyLNtBXIbv3KU7JTHbUw0AFWp60h7+s 6J3sPgE2d+/Aiqdd720TyU+NlT1oBE+L3SKVgzKzdRH5V3mBBZVi3Y8GT5lYn/luHzix 6pxREauarj8FFw42hbwg81fYt2NrG38prHoaA6tc47cJYpsmNWnVOYv39iVbZumukmmr 4rzoCwXqWXKzBt4CyVazvj1Smn0d0DZFA4lzmz+fdCottjQ3iMPDksiqHl+MX8yV/zgF 1xQ+b8Wvd+IX0lVmjFBNPn8FfI7bCP4MhTpm3djpQr0LgnQ1cv101+fJZFUT4gNsSf6o 5khA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.28.162 with SMTP id c2mr32179098oeh.3.1341598805218; Fri, 06 Jul 2012 11:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.81.65 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 11:20:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <039D3CB813A4D544863BB7D4F46A18570418F5F5@TK5EX14MBXC254.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 11:20:05 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Possible to move NFSv4 to later in the week? From: spencer shepler To: Donald Eastlake Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Spencer Shepler , "agenda@ietf.org" , "'IETF WG Chairs' \(wgchairs@ietf.org\)" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 18:19:49 -0000 Thanks for the suggestion, Donald. Sorry for the disruption but we will keep the Monday slot given that I have received other feedback that Thursday would be a more difficult choice. Spencer On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 7:56 AM, Donald Eastlake wrote: > Perhaps we can swap NSFv4 and the first TRILL slot Thursday afternoon? > > Thanks, > Donald > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA > d3e3e3@gmail.com > > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Spencer Shepler = wrote: >> >> >> I have received some last minute feedback from WG members that ou= r >> Monday slot is not going to work for them (coming off other travel=85). >> >> Is there a slot that we can move to Tuesday or later? We would be willi= ng >> to shift from a 2.5 hour to a 2 hour slot to accommodate. >> >> >> >> Spencer >> >> From sshepler@microsoft.com Fri Jul 6 11:17:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BECB11E808F; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 11:17:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pBfP9Nv1BUPL; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (ch1ehsobe003.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.181.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7170011E8079; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail160-ch1-R.bigfish.com (10.43.68.231) by CH1EHSOBE009.bigfish.com (10.43.70.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 18:15:46 +0000 Received: from mail160-ch1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail160-ch1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A31B3600A6; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 18:15:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:131.107.125.8; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:TK5EX14HUBC107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -45 X-BigFish: VS-45(zz98dI9371I542M1432Ibf3W4015I1447Izz1202hzz1033IL8275bhz2fh2a8h668h839h944hd25hf0ah107ah) Received-SPF: pass (mail160-ch1: domain of microsoft.com designates 131.107.125.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=131.107.125.8; envelope-from=sshepler@microsoft.com; helo=TK5EX14HUBC107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ; icrosoft.com ; Received: from mail160-ch1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail160-ch1 (MessageSwitch) id 1341598543116773_21312; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 18:15:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1EHSMHS022.bigfish.com (snatpool1.int.messaging.microsoft.com [10.43.68.249]) by mail160-ch1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A04A42004B; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 18:15:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TK5EX14HUBC107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (131.107.125.8) by CH1EHSMHS022.bigfish.com (10.43.70.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 18:15:42 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC253.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.3.229]) by TK5EX14HUBC107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.80.67]) with mapi id 14.02.0309.003; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 18:17:48 +0000 From: Spencer Shepler To: Donald Eastlake , Erik Nordmark Subject: RE: Possible to move NFSv4 to later in the week? Thread-Topic: Possible to move NFSv4 to later in the week? Thread-Index: Ac1a+zBCB8gTquW1TpWBS0HM5Z9dBQAjF/YAAAbvM+A= Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 18:17:47 +0000 Message-ID: <039D3CB813A4D544863BB7D4F46A18570419FCC9@TK5EX14MBXC253.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <039D3CB813A4D544863BB7D4F46A18570418F5F5@TK5EX14MBXC254.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.78] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 11:40:40 -0700 Cc: "'IETF WG Chairs' \(wgchairs@ietf.org\)" , "agenda@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 18:17:39 -0000 Thanks for the suggestion, Donald. Sorry for the disruption but we will = keep the Monday slot given that I have received other feedback that Thursday would be a more dif= ficult choice. Spencer > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 7:57 AM > To: Spencer Shepler; Erik Nordmark > Cc: agenda@ietf.org; 'IETF WG Chairs' (wgchairs@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: Possible to move NFSv4 to later in the week? >=20 > Perhaps we can swap NSFv4 and the first TRILL slot Thursday afternoon? >=20 > Thanks, > Donald > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Spencer Shepler > wrote: > > > > > > I have received some last minute feedback from WG members that > > our Monday slot is not going to work for them (coming off other travel.= ..). > > > > Is there a slot that we can move to Tuesday or later? We would be > > willing to shift from a 2.5 hour to a 2 hour slot to accommodate. > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > From brian@innovationslab.net Sat Jul 7 04:52:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F8D21F8621 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2012 04:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4fbTmauw-zLQ for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2012 04:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uillean.fuaim.com (uillean.fuaim.com [206.197.161.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFF921F860B for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2012 04:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clairseach.fuaim.com (clairseach.fuaim.com [206.197.161.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by uillean.fuaim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4073A880CF for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2012 04:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clemson.local (unknown [72.170.220.143]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clairseach.fuaim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C25130017 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2012 04:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FF82316.8070700@innovationslab.net> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 07:52:54 -0400 From: Brian Haberman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: 84th IETF DRAFT Agenda References: <20120628235937.1046.89951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20120703115421.P22678@eng-mail01.juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <20120703115421.P22678@eng-mail01.juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 11:52:40 -0000 On 7/3/12 2:55 PM, Leonard Giuliano wrote: > > Multimob and Mboned are scheduled at the same time. Is it too late to > make a change? > Multimob has moved to the Monday 1300 slot to avoid the conflict with Mboned. Brian From ietf-secretariat@ietf.org Wed Jul 11 14:02:07 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE2411E814D; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 14:02:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, GB_I_LETTER=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K1o4Ykmf5d1n; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 14:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D40311E80E1; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 14:02:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Secretariat To: IETF Announcement List Subject: IETF 84 - Meeting Information X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.30p3 Message-ID: <20120711210206.18384.49717.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 14:02:06 -0700 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, irsg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:02:07 -0000 84th IETF Meeting Vancouver, BC, Canada July 29-August 3, 2012 Host: Google Meeting venue: Hyatt Regency Vancouver http://Vancouver.hyatt.com Register online at: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/84/ 1. Registration 2. Visas & Letters of Invitation 3. Sunday Tutorials 4. Bits-N-Bites Networking Event 5. Social Event 6. Accommodations - limited number of rooms available 7. IETF84 Wiki 8. Companion Program 9. Twitter! 1. Registration A. Early-Bird Registration - USD 650.00 Pay by Friday, 20 July 2012 1700 PT= (UTC -7) B. After Early-Bird cutoff - USD 800.00 C. Full-time Student Registrations - USD 150.00 (with proper ID) D. One Day Pass Registration - USD 350.00 E. Registration Cancellation Cut-off for registration cancellation is Monday, 23 July 2012 at 1700 P= T (UTC -7). Cancellations are subject to a 10% (ten percent) cancellation f= ee if requested by that date and time. F. Online Registration and Payment ends Friday, 27 July 2012, 1700 local Va= ncouver time. G. On-site Registration starting Sunday, 29 July 2012 at 1100 local Vancouv= er time. 2. Visas & Letters of Invitation: Information on Visiting Canada, please visit: = http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/index.asp After you complete the registration process, you can request an electronic = IETF Letter of Invitation. You may also request one at a later time by foll= owing the link provided in the confirmation email. Please note that the IETF Letter of Invitation may not be sufficient for ob= taining a visa to enter Canada. At this time local host letters of invitati= on are not available. Please send an email toregistrar@ietf.org if you requ= ire a host letter of invitation, and within the next week one will be provi= ded. 3. Sunday Tutorials The following tutorials will be held on Sunday, July 29, 2012 and are open = to all attendees. 1300-1450 Network Configuration Management with NETCONF and YANG Presented by: Juergen Schoenwalder 1300-1450 Newcomers' Orientation Presented by: Scott Bradner 1300-1450 Meetecho Tutorial for Participants and WG Chairs Presented by: Simon Romano 1500-1650 Introduction to IETF Tools Tutorial Presented by: Alice Russo and Henrik Levkowetz 1500-1650 Security Tutorial Presented by: Radia Perlman For additional information on these tutorials, please visit: = http://www.ietf.org/meeting/84/tutorials.html 4. Bits-N-Bites Networking Event The IETF is pleased to announce Bits-N-Bites, a new community networking ev= ent for IETF 84 in Vancouver. = Bits-N-Bites will be held Thursday evening, August 2nd, from 1900 - 2100 PM= at the Hyatt Vancouver in the Plaza AB room. Please come and enjoy the complimentary beer, wine, and hors d'oeuvres prov= ided by the generous IETF Bits-N-Bites sponsors in support of the IETF comm= unity! = Sponsorship opportunities and tables are still available! For more informat= ion see and contact Dre= w Dvorshak at . 5. Social Event IETF 84 - Social Event Where: Telus World of Science = Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 Time: 1900 - 2300 hours Cost: $25 USD per person. Availability: Open to all!! Host: Google Telus World of Science - Science World has recently completed a $35-million= renovation at its False Creek facility, adding 30,000 square feet of space= , a green roof, and many energy=E2=80=90efficient initiatives with lots of = hands-on exhibits. Food and Beverage: Lots of local cuisine available to suit various dietary= choices. Buffet dinner and beverage service. For more information visit: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/84/social.html NOTE: You must be registered for IETF 84 to purchase a Social Ticket. If yo= u have already registered for the IETF, please use this link to purchase a = social ticket: https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf84/eventticket.py = 6. Accommodations The IETF is holding blocks of guest rooms at 2 hotels in Vancouver: Hyatt Regency Vancouver (Meeting Venue and Headquarter Hotel) and the Shera= ton Wall Centre (approximately 3 blocks from Hyatt, about 5-10 minute walk) Room Rates include in room high-speed Internet access. Taxes of 15% HST, 2%= Occupancy and 1.5% Destination Management fee (applicable taxes are subjec= t to change) are excluded from the above prices. Room rates DO NOT include = daily breakfast. Reservations Cut off Date: 15 July 2012 at the Hyatt Regency Vancouver 06 July 2012 at the Sheraton Wall Centre For additional information on rates and policies, please visit: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/84/hotel.html 7. IETF84 wiki The IETF 84 meeting wiki has been created for the attendees of IETF 84 meet= ing to exchange information. Your IETF 84 (Vancouver) wiki can be found here: http://www.ietf.org/registration/MeetingWiki/wiki/ietf84 = and is also accessible from the Vancouver meeting page on the IETF website. If you are registered for IETF 84, a user account has been automatically cr= eated for you on this Wiki. Your user name is the email address you registe= red under, and your initial password is your 10 digit confirmation number. = You can change your password in your profile settings. 8. Companion Program If you are traveling with a friend or family member over 18 years of age yo= u can register them for the IETF Companion Program for only USD 25.00 Benefits include: - A special welcome reception for companions from 1630-1730 on Sunday, 29 J= uly - Ability to attend the official Welcome Reception from 1700-1900 on Sunday= , 29 July - A distinctive meeting badge that grants access to the venue (not to be us= ed to attend working sessions) - Participation in a separate companion email list if you choose to help co= mmunicate and make plans with other IETF Companions. You can register your companion at any time via the IETF website or onsite = at the meeting. To join the 84 companions mailing list see: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/84companions 9. Twitter! Follow the IETF on Twitter @IETF Only 17 days until the Vancouver IETF! From smccammon@amsl.com Thu Jul 12 14:21:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C5C21F8587 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:21:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y1UclDDmIV0b for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:14]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CACF021F8582 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03E512CBE9 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:21:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gg+7KJklZJQH for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [12.22.58.172] (unknown [12.22.58.172]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D377212CBE3 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:21:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephanie McCammon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-23-896189377 Subject: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:22:05 -0700 Message-Id: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> To: wgchairs@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:30:42 -0700 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:21:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail-23-896189377 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Working Group Chairs! This is a reminder to please submit your picture for the WG Chair Photo = Directory if you have not already done so. You can check to see if your = photo has already been posted at = http://www.ietf.org/wg/chair-photos.html. If you have yet to submit a = picture, please send it to smccammon@amsl.com. Thank you to those who = have already sent in your picture because this is a great resource for = newcomers. Sincerely, Stephanie McCammon IETF Registrar 48377 Fremont Blvd, Ste. 117 Fremont, CA 94538 T: +1.510.492.4081 F: +1.510.492.4001 Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Meeting, and Event Planning www.amsl.com --Apple-Mail-23-896189377 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii http://www.ietf.org/wg/c= hair-photos.html.  If you have yet to submit a picture, please = send it to smccammon@amsl.com.  Thank = you to those who have already sent in your picture because this is a = great resource for = newcomers.

Sincerely,

Stephanie McCammon
IETF = Registrar
48377 Fremont Blvd, Ste. 117
Fremont, CA 94538
T: = +1.510.492.4081
F: +1.510.492.4001

Association Management = Solutions (AMS)
Forum Management, Meeting, and Event Planning
www.amsl.com



= --Apple-Mail-23-896189377-- From d3e3e3@gmail.com Thu Jul 12 18:14:29 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C6821F84BD for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:14:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.503 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.503 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hhXojgajxtTX for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com (mail-yx0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626A721F8494 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yenq13 with SMTP id q13so3346137yen.31 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:15:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=+eiB6gWz4mjL2Ai0q5AdGEu0Y07h7kmXen0TnOkb+7c=; b=O6YIhrIlxN9J8yzm68aqaHGs04w1UVuqWRD6EzEHLsxweEcNrjyq+j6PqfmPVgDAnP jPmy2bTvQo2Jl/Fs1/fBZUqYw62kFbxJtW4id9gVaqsxxLLmgpa//Zn1wKPCCQ3FD7xg HRBrLJktPV6cb5FcBAzICevdynjt+Jwn95BfL+ZxvTUFwPAA8/vltf+ZAMxyCdOs/TA8 31mwTkbZIyWMOkSbQo3WBcOK00xDyzvO2bm6yqN3eXHplRZtbwXsQ0jFjQyZFgd9eNaJ 5YaKVDjRcLm+G4lgwPkAXU/Ym4UvYztIOTp/LUSTCUNOzYgrfmDnA/znRXLQcV2cPnHA H9SA== Received: by 10.50.236.97 with SMTP id ut1mr208617igc.50.1342142102675; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:15:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.16.227 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:14:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:14:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder To: Stephanie McCammon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 01:14:30 -0000 The vowels seems to be doing particularly well. Looks like only the E, O, and U groups are at 100%. Thanks, Donald ============================= Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Stephanie McCammon wrote: > > > Hello Working Group Chairs! > > This is a reminder to please submit your picture for the WG Chair Photo > Directory if you have not already done so. You can check to see if your > photo has already been posted at http://www.ietf.org/wg/chair-photos.html. > If you have yet to submit a picture, please send it to smccammon@amsl.com. > Thank you to those who have already sent in your picture because this is a > great resource for newcomers. > > Sincerely, > > Stephanie McCammon > IETF Registrar > 48377 Fremont Blvd, Ste. 117 > Fremont, CA 94538 > T: +1.510.492.4081 > F: +1.510.492.4001 > > Association Management Solutions (AMS) > Forum Management, Meeting, and Event Planning > www.amsl.com > > > From adrian@olddog.co.uk Fri Jul 13 04:11:12 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC01721F8688; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 04:11:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.346 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.253, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BFrP-ipxCnjb; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 04:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A733221F866B; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 04:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6DBBiTS012360; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:11:44 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (dsl-sp-81-140-15-32.in-addr.broadbandscope.com [81.140.15.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6DBBgXO012325 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:11:44 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: References: <20120703184906.13086.66803.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120703184906.13086.66803.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Subject: RE: IETF 84 - Working Group Chairs' Lunch Tutorial Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:11:43 +0100 Message-ID: <00cc01cd60e8$4a3d6870$deb83950$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQLU3zO1b1oBEjKt/U8xfDKvxYMDuZUYEbTQ Content-Language: en-gb Cc: 'IETF Agenda' , iab@iab.org, 'Working Group Chairs' , irsg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:11:12 -0000 Hi Edu Team, Thanks once again for organising... > As usual, we will be holding a WG Chairs Training Lunch at IETF 84 in > Vancouver. All current WG chairs, BOF chairs, IESG members and IAB > members are welcome to attend. Add WG Secretaries? I think that would be nice. It is not a large delta. A From adrian@olddog.co.uk Fri Jul 13 07:08:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D393C21F8763; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 07:08:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.387 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.387 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.212, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G0No2Yt40mqA; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 07:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9367B21F8618; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 07:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6DE9CNJ017191; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:09:12 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (dsl-sp-81-140-15-32.in-addr.broadbandscope.com [81.140.15.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6DE9B7k017183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:09:12 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: , , Subject: FW: I-D Action: draft-arkko-iesg-crossarea-01.txt Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:09:12 +0100 Message-ID: <014d01cd6101$14d38340$3e7a89c0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac1hARBAR/lXuStkTcanBLF3dMxRyw== Content-Language: en-gb X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 14:08:39 -0000 Folks, I would really appreciate reviews and discussion of this document before it reaches IETF last call. Comment should, I think, be sent to the author and the IETF discussion list. Thanks, Adrian > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > Title : Experiences from Cross-Area Work at the IETF > Author(s) : Jari Arkko > Filename : draft-arkko-iesg-crossarea-01.txt > > This memo discusses the reasons for IETF work on topics that cross > area boundaries. Such cross-area work presents challenges for the > organization of the IETF as well as on how interested parties can > participate the work. The memo also provides some suggestions on > managing these challenges. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-iesg-crossarea-01.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-iesg-crossarea-01.txt From dcrocker@bbiw.net Fri Jul 13 08:01:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3010321F878E for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:01:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.089, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 52O1zgAFqhdv for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236FD21F85BB for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (adsl-67-127-55-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.127.55.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6DF2EYa009196 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:02:14 -0700 Message-ID: <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:02:05 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:02:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:01:39 -0000 > This is a reminder to please submit your picture for the WG Chair Photo > Directory if you have not already done so. Assuming that the rationale for doing this is to help folk find us outside the wg meeting room, wouldn't it also make sense to have photos of wg draft authors? That greatly expands the number of people/photos, of course. So the current manual method would be an undue imposition on staff, but would it make sense to try to move toward something that supports that larger set? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From bclaise@cisco.com Fri Jul 13 08:15:22 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30EEC21F86F3 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:15:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.432 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.432 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQuBfzQMOh63 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from av-tac-bru.cisco.com (weird-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.118]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01C421F86E8 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:15:20 -0700 (PDT) X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-bru.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6DFCZfp006337; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:12:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.60.67.85] (ams-bclaise-8914.cisco.com [10.60.67.85]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6DFCYXZ011348; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:12:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <50003AE2.2030201@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:12:34 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> In-Reply-To: <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:15:22 -0000 On 13/07/2012 17:02, Dave Crocker wrote: > >> This is a reminder to please submit your picture for the WG Chair Photo >> Directory if you have not already done so. > > > Assuming that the rationale for doing this is to help folk find us > outside the wg meeting room, wouldn't it also make sense to have > photos of wg draft authors? During the registration process, there is an entry for linkedIn. Now sure how to make the link between attendees and their linkedIn accounts though. An URL in https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf84/attendance.py would be great. Regards, Benoit. > > That greatly expands the number of people/photos, of course. > > So the current manual method would be an undue imposition on staff, > but would it make sense to try to move toward something that supports > that larger set? > > d/ From rbarnes@bbn.com Fri Jul 13 09:06:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A65A21F8732 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:06:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.568 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.568 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZDAriEjgmVYV for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.0.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3590721F8722 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.89.253.210] (port=59132) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SpiO4-0000oQ-T6; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:06:36 -0400 Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: "Richard L. Barnes" In-Reply-To: <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:06:33 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> To: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:06:09 -0000 On Jul 13, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: >=20 >> This is a reminder to please submit your picture for the WG Chair = Photo >> Directory if you have not already done so. >=20 >=20 > Assuming that the rationale for doing this is to help folk find us = outside the wg meeting room, wouldn't it also make sense to have photos = of wg draft authors? >=20 > That greatly expands the number of people/photos, of course. >=20 > So the current manual method would be an undue imposition on staff, = but would it make sense to try to move toward something that supports = that larger set? >=20 > d/ I would propose that the indirection we have here is sufficient. = Namely, ask the WG chairs to point out the document authors. --Richard From martin.thomson@gmail.com Fri Jul 13 09:22:46 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E0121F8629 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.704 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.704 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.105, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GvHeccTTW-1e for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bk0-f44.google.com (mail-bk0-f44.google.com [209.85.214.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C008F21F85EF for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bkty7 with SMTP id y7so3003180bkt.31 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:23:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=bjk4Zc3YKncxA4oZYXPHIT3cVCHtR01DpMCnso/coHU=; b=uMT2Y8hV/p5x9wL3hnqeEFsr0h0TeNNG+eZEl+0b4G+Ois6UGDpPXBrgQbpbOIHwNg gu1hC7Fao+CbJY4mh4YdbK+fLdfA7Ud5UCWkuOzf+3gRqxpZCboeQOnRuwxPOPTSHkJ4 DlJz2e31G6ItsYKU/8UMTPiCgQt/e7VZA1JotxJVMxFhrPg/G4Sobxfm7FTzNcxfE0wu 9sjbkhO++chWZtCHWb4aC5vMDowpdTR9tlvwRWKJPwMGK7FqKAk/JegYNsc369JPXgqh bYmGr/ARK+zUytZ7RyUj9JBddFYnP8II9O+vP20WtTJ+Z6FWhogqAwHeNaPJbs31Q8GY 68Mg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.152.206 with SMTP id h14mr1366668bkw.36.1342196601454; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.66.17 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:23:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:23:21 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder From: Martin Thomson To: "Richard L. Barnes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:22:47 -0000 On 13 July 2012 09:06, Richard L. Barnes wrote: > On Jul 13, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: >> So the current manual method would be an undue imposition on staff, but would it make sense to try to move toward something that supports that larger set? > I would propose that the indirection we have here is sufficient. Namely, ask the WG chairs to point out the document authors. I believe that the imposition is with respect to the handling of emails containing images in various formats and sizes with the need to then enter that into the system. Identification (and badgering) is less of a concern. (Yes, my own headshot is notably absent, I'm working on it.) From john-ietf@jck.com Fri Jul 13 09:41:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E4721F875C for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:41:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.573 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.573 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WdkQ0q42X7Yy for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3095B21F8674 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Spiqj-0004TL-CV for wgchairs@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:36:13 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:41:24 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Message-ID: <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:41:01 -0000 Hi. Might I remind those who are getting enthused about picture archives of lots of people, linking meeting pages to assorted URLs (perhaps even automatically), etc., about the recent discussion of Blue Sheets, diversions into photographs of WG participants with their hands up, and privacy policies and regulations. I don't want to draw any conclusions from the possible relationship between the two discussions, but it seems to me that they are related. And, yes, it is not an oversight that I have no picture posted. john From rbarnes@bbn.com Fri Jul 13 09:50:15 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C30611E80C1 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:50:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e+remsI0pldJ for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.0.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7AB511E80BA for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.89.253.210] (port=59400) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Spj4n-0001li-Px; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:50:45 -0400 Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Richard L. Barnes" In-Reply-To: <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:50:45 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <3128457C-B8AF-4DC8-AFC5-34D0A48429A0@bbn.com> References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:50:16 -0000 > And, yes, it is not an oversight that I have no picture posted. Nope, none at all. From adam@nostrum.com Fri Jul 13 09:56:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EC811E8106 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:56:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J7vVF2Ui7-di for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7743C11E80FB for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local ([4.30.77.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6DGvAxk000487 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:57:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:57:10 -0500 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 4.30.77.1 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:56:38 -0000 On 7/13/12 11:41 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > Might I remind those who are getting enthused about picture > archives of lots of people, linking meeting pages to assorted > URLs (perhaps even automatically), etc., about the recent > discussion of Blue Sheets, diversions into photographs of WG > participants with their hands up, and privacy policies and > regulations. > > I don't want to draw any conclusions from the possible > relationship between the two discussions, but it seems to me > that they are related. Related, presumably, in that they are almost opposite. One pertains to the voluntary submission of portraits, in which the person being identified retains control over how, when, and whether he is identified. The other pertains to the situation in which such identification is performed by a third party, outside the control of the person being identified. We're discussing optional, voluntary submission of photos here. > And, yes, it is not an oversight that I have no picture posted. > That's certainly well within your rights, but it's an interesting assertion. If I type your name into Google, I get five pictures (four unique), all of whom I recognize as you, in the list of results without clicking on anything further. (Plus a thumbnail of a video that appears to contain you speaking into a microphone.) And if I click on the "images" link from there, I get a Wall Of Klensin looking back at me. For you in particular, obtaining anonymity would require more effort than could probably be exerted by any single entity (person, company, government). If omitting your picture from the directory is an oversight, I presume it's intentional. Given the above, what are you asserting your intention is? /a From john-ietf@jck.com Fri Jul 13 10:33:49 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F1B21F867F for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:33:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GTMX0ASJZ9ld for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A328221F867E for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Spjfp-0004WP-3K; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 13:29:01 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 13:34:12 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Adam Roach Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:33:49 -0000 --On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:57 -0500 Adam Roach wrote: >> And, yes, it is not an oversight that I have no picture >> posted. >> > > That's certainly well within your rights, but it's an > interesting assertion. If I type your name into Google, I get > five pictures (four unique), all of whom I recognize as you, > in the list of results without clicking on anything further. > (Plus a thumbnail of a video that appears to contain you > speaking into a microphone.) And if I click on the "images" > link from there, I get a Wall Of Klensin looking back at me. > For you in particular, obtaining anonymity would require more > effort than could probably be exerted by any single entity > (person, company, government). But that argument of course applies to many other IETF participants and could have been used in the discussion of WG attendees as well. I tried to make that argument at the time, but got no traction, so am just trying to point out that there is, contrary to your assertion, a relationship. I've decided that, as you suggest, controlling my image is pretty close to impossible, partially because many pictures have been taken without my knowledge and/or posted somewhere without my permission and that trying to get them taken down is probably beyond my capabilities and certainly beyond any level of resources I'm willing to invest. I didn't see a problem with a page where chairs who wanted to wanted to put their pictures up could so do, nor with a procedure where attendees who wanted to post personal URLs could do that. But I do see a problem the moment the discussion shifts in an even more slightly coercive direction, such as the implication that all good WG Chairs will make those postings because they are really useful, speculation about whether links could be captured automatically, and so on. The boundary between that and saying "if you want to participate in this WG and attend its meetings, then..." seems very thin to me. YMMD, of course. > If omitting your picture from the directory is an oversight, I > presume it's intentional. Given the above, what are you > asserting your intention is? I wanted to carry out a small, personal, social experiment in how long it would take to make the transition between "this page is available if you want to put your picture on it" to reminders from the Secretariat to "please submit your picture for the WG Chair Photo Directory if you have not already done so" and comments in both that note and from others on the list that it ought to be semi-obligatory. I don't live in the EU so you (or the others who have pointed out how easy it is to find pictures of me) would probably not be violating any privacy law by grabbing one of those images and posting it on my behalf. You could even infer that the number of images that are out there imply that I might not care (that inference might or might not be correct). But I don't think that would be entirely consistent with principles we have advocated or at least accepted and I don't think pushing people to post pictures is either. john From andy@hxr.us Fri Jul 13 10:33:52 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EDC21F869C for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:33:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Tbhsy9aP9SB for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com (mail-yx0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CE321F8697 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yenq13 with SMTP id q13so4185827yen.31 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:34:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=m96iVpW5rJdQBKFZQfXGoKQEWRgdZCRhrAMRyJoJEvI=; b=on+cHp2C+NJ+txivqaVPQZru4B35N7/zHtKbo3k4D7GRMUDru10ZdafZS5jFR7Z++6 C5Ue1B9jQf5oSPWCw5+QqjbFaIff1uLiKZ8kA1g6N619c+JwxAIj/aERj7rgtGVtD7iv rVHCX7hD201Z7OZuc6rBxmGzsERH5kDmv8NSfSFNfNVAw/AtlkHwmbFYvKvNAVYWM/0O 08nW0EgNlZ2UbzInfv+iOzuGbBGteO9bwkRPQwZsrjJaAzpB7j5N1b+f9ecDA8ektdpy cDAuYLKxAv+8QhUkFOR8nhppvbsRdE1epWj1/tXjp/EUPLfsdg8iZXTfcZ5LLilvY5uv AaXw== Received: by 10.236.190.6 with SMTP id d6mr1958344yhn.16.1342200868148; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:500:4:34::156? ([2001:500:4:34::156]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a64sm15384653yhe.11.2012.07.13.10.34.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Andy Newton In-Reply-To: <3128457C-B8AF-4DC8-AFC5-34D0A48429A0@bbn.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 13:34:23 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <3128457C-B8AF-4DC8-AFC5-34D0A48429A0@bbn.com> To: "Richard L. Barnes" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlyjZ//zkIIvoPQHz88Z2OXWckla5Taer1NpKSWRCaIT7UJK44kpwKIox/F6bB3mnUeY9/x Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:33:52 -0000 On Jul 13, 2012, at 12:50 PM, Richard L. Barnes wrote: >> And, yes, it is not an oversight that I have no picture posted. >=20 > Nope, none at all. > Though any useful discussion on this topic is now in jeopardy, seeing = Steve Balmer come up in the image search for JCK is a bit amusing. -andy= From ned.freed@mrochek.com Fri Jul 13 11:01:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877AB11E80A5 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:01:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bo2phKwQ4XaR for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF42C11E8087 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01OHSRN7L3A8005FCY@mauve.mrochek.com> for wgchairs@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01OHQN2U9IY80006TF@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <01OHSRN53RSM0006TF@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:50:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 13 Jul 2012 13:34:23 -0400" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <3128457C-B8AF-4DC8-AFC5-34D0A48429A0@bbn.com> To: Andy Newton Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 18:01:18 -0000 > On Jul 13, 2012, at 12:50 PM, Richard L. Barnes wrote: > >> And, yes, it is not an oversight that I have no picture posted. > > > > Nope, none at all. > > > Though any useful discussion on this topic is now in jeopardy, seeing Steve Balmer come up in the image search for JCK is a bit amusing. My problem with pictures of me is that they always seem to be of my bad side ;-) Ned From dcrocker@bbiw.net Fri Jul 13 11:10:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8731611E8079 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:10:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qWeut8R7zfTJ for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB46921F85F7 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.85.176] (64.125.189.90.t00817-23.above.net [64.125.189.90] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6DIAT6M012460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:10:29 -0700 Message-ID: <5000648C.9010109@bbiw.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:10:20 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard L. Barnes" Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 18:10:09 -0000 On 7/13/2012 9:06 AM, Richard L. Barnes wrote: > I would propose that the indirection we have here is sufficient. Namely, ask the WG chairs to point out the document authors. So, before posting my original note, I didn't consider this. First, it imposes extra load on the chairs. Worse is that it creates a dependency sequence that's at best a hassle, amont 1200+ people. Some of the followup postings have considered specific solutions. I wanted to get a reading on interest in the increased listings, before pursuing the question of how to do it. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From dcrocker@bbiw.net Fri Jul 13 11:11:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FDD711E8079 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:11:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W2tkBlVU2qaI for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC3021F85FF for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.85.176] (64.125.189.90.t00817-23.above.net [64.125.189.90] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6DICWuT012508 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:12:32 -0700 Message-ID: <50006508.9010707@bbiw.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:12:24 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:12:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 18:11:56 -0000 On 7/13/2012 9:57 AM, Adam Roach wrote: > We're discussing optional, voluntary submission of photos here. indeed. and in a public forum. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From adam@nostrum.com Fri Jul 13 15:23:08 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C70221F858E for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:23:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dZUF3WXRQIeK for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B74E21F8541 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local ([4.30.77.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6DMNg8l033059 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:23:43 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <50009FEE.5060504@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:23:42 -0500 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020607070608060909060603" Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 4.30.77.1 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:23:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020607070608060909060603 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/13/12 12:34 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > I do see a problem the moment the discussion > shifts in an even more slightly coercive direction, such as the > implication that all good WG Chairs will make those postings > because they are really useful, speculation about whether links > could be captured automatically, and so on. The boundary > between that and saying "if you want to participate in this WG > and attend its meetings, then..." seems very thin to me. YMMD, > of course. It seems to me that there's a pretty bright line between suggesting that the utility of having WG chair photos available to the community at large has significant value (and should therefore be /encouraged/) and any form of coercion. Any opt-out or automatic system? Yes, I agree with you. Attempting to link participants to external data without their explicit consent is starting down a dangerous path. But gentle, even frequent, encouragement to those in a leadership role to make themselves more recognizable to the community seems completely innocuous as long as people must take positive action to opt-in. The moment it becomes a prerequisite to chairing a working group, I'll be right there next to you pushing back. /a --------------020607070608060909060603 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 7/13/12 12:34 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
I do see a problem the moment the discussion
shifts in an even more slightly coercive direction, such as the
implication that all good WG Chairs will make those postings
because they are really useful, speculation about whether links
could be captured automatically, and so on.  The boundary
between that and saying "if you want to participate in this WG
and attend its meetings, then..." seems very thin to me.  YMMD,
of course.

It seems to me that there's a pretty bright line between suggesting that the utility of having WG chair photos available to the community at large has significant value (and should therefore be encouraged) and any form of coercion.

Any opt-out or automatic system? Yes, I agree with you. Attempting to link participants to external data without their explicit consent is starting down a dangerous path.

But gentle, even frequent, encouragement to those in a leadership role to make themselves more recognizable to the community seems completely innocuous as long as people must take positive action to opt-in. The moment it becomes a prerequisite to chairing a working group, I'll be right there next to you pushing back.

/a
--------------020607070608060909060603-- From martin.thomson@gmail.com Fri Jul 13 16:24:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E62311E80EB for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.752 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.752 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.153, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U7kA52ukjrB2 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bk0-f44.google.com (mail-bk0-f44.google.com [209.85.214.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E05811E80B3 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bkty7 with SMTP id y7so3214309bkt.31 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:24:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6gNBMbiPXiA/qEQv/UKTYh0CG0NKhBHa2lv2tNXbFo4=; b=HmJI5zOA9X+3iaRFKrmHneRhBltB1Q5JCoqOSIcu1wFXOF+O1rAXGNq24ECynyuVRZ +d2MlU5g78XNKLBUAyAalOaZDTI4/8I8p6QY2V/12poEz9Az8VIhNAC6gClFOMmyepIt C2Vr8HOUdjThlz2QMf+yfBVQVEpFXIyhFk415AN14xqLID/wKd10X5OWFBms2u+qERkL nCqRbhKb2aAzak4CEA4hvnPnbuBFtHMM4o7oTkZcU2FRFDBnqIJBP0mP3IT8NTWfK0G6 8UbXMBiz6JjINq20+jtVm+NdwsNVSqSjeuIZo52R+616Vd5yc+1WSYj3s/3KN0Xj7rZO 3ZUQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.205.133.11 with SMTP id hw11mr1881962bkc.46.1342221892089; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.66.17 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:24:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <50009FEE.5060504@nostrum.com> References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> <50009FEE.5060504@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:24:51 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder From: Martin Thomson To: Adam Roach Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:24:16 -0000 On 13 July 2012 15:23, Adam Roach wrote: > But gentle, even frequent, encouragement to those in a leadership role to > make themselves more recognizable to the community seems completely > innocuous as long as people must take positive action to opt-in. The moment > it becomes a prerequisite to chairing a working group, I'll be right there > next to you pushing back. Me too. I'll bring the pitchforks. From john-ietf@jck.com Fri Jul 13 20:57:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296AC21F86C5 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 20:57:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.575 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.575 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TL35kiL2KCev for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 20:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C0121F86C2 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 20:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SptPG-00055i-QJ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:52:34 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:57:46 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Adam Roach Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <50009FEE.5060504@nostrum.com> References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> <50009FEE.5060504@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 03:57:23 -0000 --On Friday, July 13, 2012 17:23 -0500 Adam Roach wrote: > On 7/13/12 12:34 PM, John C Klensin wrote: >> I do see a problem the moment the discussion >> shifts in an even more slightly coercive direction, such as >> the implication that all good WG Chairs will make those >> postings because they are really useful, speculation about >> whether links could be captured automatically, and so on. >> The boundary between that and saying "if you want to >> participate in this WG and attend its meetings, then..." >> seems very thin to me. YMMD, of course. > > It seems to me that there's a pretty bright line between > suggesting that the utility of having WG chair photos > available to the community at large has significant value (and > should therefore be /encouraged/) and any form of coercion. I would hope that there would be. But over the last several years I've seen too many things move gradually (and sometimes not so gradually) from "good idea to consider this" to "good idea" to "strongly recommended" to "required". I though the point at which to raise the issue was now, rather than after someone says "required" or "you are not a good WG Chair unless..." > Any opt-out or automatic system? Yes, I agree with you. > Attempting to link participants to external data without their > explicit consent is starting down a dangerous path. > > But gentle, even frequent, encouragement to those in a > leadership role to make themselves more recognizable to the > community seems completely innocuous as long as people must > take positive action to opt-in. The moment it becomes a > prerequisite to chairing a working group, I'll be right there > next to you pushing back. I think we are probably in agreement. john From cabo@tzi.org Sat Jul 14 01:56:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1564721F8718 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 01:56:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.371 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.371 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.122, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O-qZKdTohgJF for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 01:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C468521F871C for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 01:56:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6E8tRJk019726; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 10:55:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p5489311B.dip.t-dialin.net [84.137.49.27]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24FD1BAF; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 10:55:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 10:55:17 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> <50009FEE.5060504@nostrum.com> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 08:56:03 -0000 On Jul 14, 2012, at 05:57, John C Klensin wrote: > rather than after > someone says [...] "you are not a good WG Chair > unless..." Well, then let me say it... > You are not a good WG Chair unless you make your picture available to = other IETFers who might be looking for you. < (Well, actually, you can still be a good WG chair with a single = pronounced character flaw, but let's not get into pesky details. And = I'd make an exception if you are offspring of Medusa. But apart from = that, I really don't understand why people want to take office as WG = chairs and then make it hard for others in the IETF to find them in = person. And, yes, I'm a German and I'm all over data minimization and = all that.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From jmpolk@cisco.com Sat Jul 14 14:28:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE00121F845D for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:28:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.115, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yuQf2uGTgcE9 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1899621F8628 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:28:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; l=1700; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1342301323; x=1343510923; h=message-id:date:to:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to: references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jNkoyINDc19EwpwO9OFVHHIoLwndRJA0+NA7eK94f0w=; b=IzWODzcrln/brANMfspRWDAOrMBJo+RMUqTHrWizGUUmit3Wn5ouWgB4 +yWVqG3CNfvwVUb4KJTt4gq1IMH+QH8Z+ByVz56txmypxcWEN72PP627E 2dnN5P8Kum4k9mWRg+7hc9cMKXcNYIhEgZ0I+huOsbFtZaHmVOLD4IZWK Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EADfkAVCrRDoG/2dsb2JhbABFuCmBB4IgAQEBBBIBJUEQBwQOCi4ZPgYBJgcHh2qaap8oi0CFImADiBY1mxCBZoJ9 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,585,1336348800"; d="scan'208";a="51860857" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Jul 2012 21:28:42 +0000 Received: from jmpolk-WS.cisco.com (rcdn-jmpolk-8714.cisco.com [10.99.80.21]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6ELSfOE030429; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 21:28:42 GMT Message-Id: <201207142128.q6ELSfOE030429@mtv-core-1.cisco.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:28:42 -0500 To: Carsten Bormann , John C Klensin From: James Polk Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder In-Reply-To: References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> <50009FEE.5060504@nostrum.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 21:28:04 -0000 At 03:55 AM 7/14/2012, Carsten Bormann wrote: >On Jul 14, 2012, at 05:57, John C Klensin wrote: > > > rather than after > > someone says [...] "you are not a good WG Chair > > unless..." > >Well, then let me say it... > > > You are not a good WG Chair unless you make=20 > your picture available to other IETFers who might be looking for you. < > >(Well, actually, you can still be a good WG=20 >chair with a single pronounced character flaw,=20 >but let's not get into pesky details. And I'd=20 >make an exception if you are offspring of=20 >Medusa. But apart from that, I really don't=20 >understand why people want to take office as WG=20 >chairs and then make it hard for others in the=20 >IETF to find them in person. And, yes, I'm a=20 >German and I'm all over data minimization and all that.) Damn people, we're engineers, not politicians. We=20 solve problems - and I'm not hearing any solutions other than "if _you_ were a real engineer, _you'd_ fix it _yourself_ so we wouldn't have to complain about _you_ any more". If each of you doesn't know how utterly lame that sounds... If this was *really* important to the community=20 and IETF structure, then there would be a camera=20 available to take WG chair pictures at=20 registration by someone who would - for us -=20 insert that image on the site for this purpose.=20 Everyone knows which color dot is the chair's=20 dot, and simply asking each chair if we=20 (individually) have our picture on the site at=20 check-in could resolve this whole issue in one=20 meeting. If this is too much of a burden, then=20 this isn't really that important. -j >Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From cabo@tzi.org Sat Jul 14 14:36:15 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025A021F8648 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:36:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.367 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.367 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ru9s4ngHO68E for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2310C21F8629 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:36:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6ELaiIj028587; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 23:36:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p548930AD.dip.t-dialin.net [84.137.48.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 80A2FC87; Sat, 14 Jul 2012 23:36:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <201207142128.q6ELSfOE030429@mtv-core-1.cisco.com> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 23:36:43 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> <50009FEE.5060504@nostrum.com> <201207142128.q6ELSfOE030429@mtv-core-1.cisco.com> To: James Polk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 21:36:15 -0000 On Jul 14, 2012, at 23:28, James Polk wrote: > camera available to take WG chair pictures at registration=20 Sounds like a reasonable threat to make people submit non-fugly pictures = :-) No, it's not *important*, and we seem to have exceeded the length of a = reasonable thread about this, so this is my second and last message = about this. But I can't help being amazed at the gaping holes on that page... (And -- hard to believe -- I've been more than once asked to help with = rendezvousing people because they don't have their picture there.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From barryleiba@gmail.com Sun Jul 15 08:41:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD8021F8631 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:41:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.957 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.957 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DiQC1g8+AEHS for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-f51.google.com (mail-qa0-f51.google.com [209.85.216.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582D321F84D1 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qaea16 with SMTP id a16so1106275qae.10 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:42:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=UCVaYqQSXeOfmiqOxRLEViUJAcDAIHlrPxwzLGkIDA0=; b=Ck0uT17R2opoARcBOtKS/CsmQo08AH7Nt0diPC4jYgRGdWnZFHqvhXF+GXITBUK5Lm DLrdZSHU2bVssJ9FlqGCFluuxp/qunuaETm9V025DGQgcA8uwW9Q9HtuCnSsZSIl0izA kwxU2JGTpOhtBaNojBZXwHIBqRw8y9PQHyJ2mFsdNT4pq/o5SelYogdQIJCjz+enh/ZI 1hliuej/4XSHoPtOBbLxcmt+ktHJjDFRIKSNK4YgoSpTKQcFLYcCRDqCwTon3FKxqjkk Gk8YhbHTENf+vyadad+3ue0MepIOmtdKnNVCDtZs3WfkDUGHACRPA4+34B+2FhfCUwJv svfQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.217.9 with SMTP id hk9mr15715323qab.58.1342366952993; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.229.245.85 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 11:42:32 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: pQ--wVmaG3lUh6vcO4qLnJzV2E8 Message-ID: Subject: Comments on document shepherd writeups From: Barry Leiba To: wgchairs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:41:56 -0000 Having had some time, now, to read quite a lot of document shepherd writeups (yes, we do read them, at least some of us), I want to give my thoughts on what makes them more useful to the IESG -- and, so, also, what doesn't help. I'll start by saying that these are my personal thoughts, and not any sort of consensus of the IESG. First: the shepherd writeup has two major purposes. It ensures that certain things have been thought about and checked, and it provides information to the IESG and input to the its evaluation of the document. It's tempting to answer as many of the questions on the writeup questionnaire as possible with "yes" or "no", and that might work for the first goal. In most cases, it doesn't meet the second goal well at all. To be clear, I don't want to see things like "Yes" to question 13 replaced with "All references within this document have been identified as either normative or informative." That doesn't help, and question 13 is one where "Yes" really is a fine answer (but note that "No" is not; that would require some explanation). I'm not suggesting more wordy versions of "yes" and "no", but answers that actually give us information, when there's information to give. I'm looking to avoid perfunctory writeups, of which there are now many. (And I'll add that I've also read many excellent and informative writeups; thanks for those!) I also know that the questionnaire is imperfect. Some of the questions seem like they should be combined, and some (3 and 12 are examples) were worded as they are specifically to avoid "yes" and "no", but the result is often awkward or silly. Two other small items: (a) Remember that the shepherd writeup will be posted publicly; if there's anything you want to communicate privately to the responsible AD or to the IESG as a whole, please do that separately. (b) Please use the tracker to post the writeup yourself, and *also* send it to the responsible AD with CC to . To post it in the tracker, go to the tracker page for the document, sign in (upper right), and click the "Change stream writeup" link. If you are a non-chair shepherd, ask one of the chairs to do it. (The AD or the IESG Secretary will also post the writeup as a comment in the document history.) Let me, then, run through the current questionnaire briefly, and suggest the sorts of things I'd like to see conveyed in the answers. You can follow along with the writeup template; I won't repeat the questions here. https://www.ietf.org/iesg/template/doc-writeup.txt I also won't go through every question -- only the ones I've found often needing more by the shepherd. -------------------------------- (1) There've been a number of cases where a draft was copied from another as a starting point, and the author never changed the intended status. This is a reminder to the shepherd to check that, and to make sure it's as intended. But it's also looking for information about the *reasons* for selecting the intended status. There are plenty of times when it's obvious to anyone that a document needs to be Standards Track, or Informational, and just a brief answer is fine. There are also many instances of the IESG quibbling about the status, wondering why this document is Experimental, why that one is BCP instead of Informational or Standards Track, why this is Standards Track when it just registers a code point, and shouldn't it be Informational, and so on. Use this question to tell us something about the working group's discussion of the status of this document. For Experimental, especially, explain why it's Experimental, and talk about how we'll know if or when it might be revised to a different status. If a document doesn't specify a protocol but it's Standards Track, explain that. There aren't "right" or "wrong" answers; this is information for the IESG. Help us avoid discussion about things that were already done to death in the working group. (2) In the Working Group Summary section, please talk about the discussions the document went through, and give specifics (you can use questions (6) and (9) for this also). I think it's best for a document shepherd to be assigned as soon as a draft is proposed for adoption by a working group, and the shepherd's job begins then and runs through the publication as an RFC. The shepherd should be following the discussions, moving them forward, ensuring that the authors/editors are responsive, and helping things converge. Tell us something about those discussions. When you say, "There was some controversy, but it was soon resolved," tell us what the controversy was, tell us (briefly) what the two (or more) sides of the issue were, and what compromises were made to come to rough consensus. One reason we need to know this is so we can evaluate how the process went, but it's also often the case that some of the same issues come up during IESG evaluation. If you tell us what happened in the working group, we won't have to revisit it as we review the document. A couple of times, I've put a DISCUSS position on documents that came from not knowing the history. The chairs explained the situation and I cleared my DISCUSSes before the telechat... no terrible harm was done, but some time was wasted for me, the responsible AD, the chairs, and the authors. Avoid that by explaining things up front. Try to anticipate what the IESG might need to know. In the "Document Quality" section is a question about existing implementations and plans to implement. Those questions are often misconstrued: as with much of the rest, there's not a "right" answer, and the IESG is not requiring that there be implementations. We're looking for *information*. So if there are no implementations, it's OK: say so. If there are neither implementations nor plans to implement, and the document is going for Proposed Standard, it will be useful to say a few words about why it's useful to proceed with the protocol -- is there related work that has to finish first, or are there other factors that are likely to spur implementations soon? (4) (5) (12) I think these should be merged (and there's a small overlap with (9) as well), but the point here is to talk about how the reviews of the document went. "No" might sometimes seem a fine answer for question 4, but in general we're looking for something more specific. Tell us, in some rough sense, how many people reviewed it in the working group, whether people from other working groups or areas reviewed it (and how those reviews went), whether directorate reviews have come in yet and how those went. If your document specifies an XML schema, defines a new HTTP header field, or uses public keys or hash functions, tell us who reviewed those and what the discussion was like. If there was already some discussion with an AD, discuss that. You want to show us that we need worry little about this, or alert us that we might need to take a closer look. Again, try to anticipate what we might ask about -- you know the Security ADs will perk up if your document talks about key management, so anticipate the questions in your explanation of the reviews. (7) This question has been a bit problematic, not in its existence or in the answers, but in the process of getting the answers. Note that the question is looking for assurance of compliance with BCP 79, and note that BCP 79 specifically requires disclosure only for IPR that the contributor personally knows about. *Very* often, I'm seeing some delays in getting documents to the responsible AD because one or more of the authors has to go off and ask her company's legal department before answering the query from the shepherd or chair. In general, it should NOT be necessary to ask one's legal advisors about this, and the question the shepherds ask should be worded so as not to give that impression. "Do you or your company have any IPR on this document?" is a clear prompt for someone to check with the lawyers. "Do you personally know of any IPR related to this document that has not already been disclosed?" is more likely to get the right sense across. If people want to voluntarily take the extra step of checking with their companies, that's OK... but please don't phrase your question in a way that makes them think they have to. (8) (14) (15) These questions are here for a particular reason: our process requires that the Last Call announcement informs the community of these sorts of things, and if the shepherd fails to highlight something that needs to be noted for Last Call, and the responsible AD doesn't catch it, there will need to be a second Last Call to cover it. That will usually delay the document by at least two weeks, and will cause unnecessary hassle. Please be careful about getting these right. As with most of the other questions, it's not an issue of "right" and "wrong" answers, but of accurate ones. (11) I find this question a little funny. On the one hand, I personally think it's silly to worry about some of the nits that are called out by the idnits check. On the other hand, I think authors should be required to run idnits and to either clean up or explain every one of them before asking the shepherd to move forward with the document. The shepherd should then re-check it. I've seen shepherd writeups that said there were no nits called out, when there were. I've seen ones that said "there are nits, but they're OK," when some clearly *do* need to be fixed (and, it's true, some really don't -- some are false positives, some are the way they are for a reason, and some would just happily be fixed by the RFC Editor). But just know that some ADs will run idnits themselves, and will comment on any errors or warnings that come out of it. Don't be easy game for the IESG in that regard: make us *earn* our pay. (12) Apart from what I said above (under (4) (5) (12)), if the document is registering a value in a registry that requires expert review, please make sure the proper process has been followed. Part of the shepherd's responsibility is to follow through with any necessary expert reviews, and to make sure they get done. If you aren't sure what the process is, ask your AD for help. (16) Related to that, one of the things that idnits calls out is failure to say "This document updates RFC xyz" in the abstract when the document header says "Updates: xyz". Many of us think that's a little silly, and it sometimes is, but here's the thing: Sometimes the abstract is read on its own, separated from the rest of the document and from the metadata (the stuff in the header). And sometimes it's not obvious *why* a document updates another. More than just checking mechanically that the abstract has a brief phrase in it that's redundant with the document header, please make sure that someone reading the abstract and introduction will *understand* what's going on, and will know why things are updating or obsoleting other things. "This document is a complete replacement for RFC xyz." "This document obsoletes RFC xyz by providing an alternative solution." "This document changes the definition of the BANANA field, and updates RFC xyz in doing so." That's the sort of thing that's of actual use in the document; make sure it's there. (17) Finally, one of my pet-peeve sections: I would say that *half* of the IANA Considerations sections I read are lacking in one way or another. IANA are very good at figuring out what you mean, even when you're not clear. But don't make them have to figure it out -- they do guess wrong sometimes, and, despite all the checks and counter-checks, errors don't always get caught. I look closely at these during my review, and will call out problems, though these days IANA will have tried to sort them out during Last Call. I'm asking that the shepherds address it *before* then. - Make sure that each IANA action that's needed is clear and distinct. I like to put each action in its own subsection. A numbered list also works nicely, I think. Some put each action in a separate paragraph. In any case, try to avoid things like "IANA are asked to register item 1 in registry 1 and item 2 in registry 2," because it just makes it harder to separate the actions. - Make sure that all existing registries are *clearly* identified by their *exact* names. Don't guess; look them up. The IANA registries are here: https://www.iana.org/protocols/ I can't stress enough how important it is to use the *exact* name. We recently had a document that aimed to register something in the "vCard Property Parameters" registry. If you look at the link above, you'll see that there's a "vCard Parameters" registry and a "vCard Properties" registry. IANA guessed the latter, but the former was the correct one, and the result was several rounds of discussion with IANA to make sure it was done right and that the document was correctly updated. Don't guess, and don't make them guess. Look it up (and here: if *you* can't find it, what makes you think IANA can?). - It doesn't hurt to include the URL for the registry, as well. Something like this: IANA is asked to make the following registration in the vCard Parameters registry. [https://www.iana.org/assignments/vcard-elements] - If the document is creating a new registry, make sure it specifies whether it should be a top-level registry, or a sub-registry of an existing one. Using vCard as an example again, something like this works: IANA is asked to create a new sub-registry under vCard Elements. The new registry will be called "vCard Avatars", and registrations in it will be by the Specification Required policy [RFC5226]. - If the document is creating a new registry, make sure it specifies the policy to be used for registrations in that registry. We normally specify one of the well-known policies defined in BCP 26 (currently RFC 5226, though we're starting work on an update), and BCP 26 is a normative reference (so check that too). - Please include a brief explanation for the reason the selected policy was chosen, and summarize working group discussion about that. I would prefer to see that in the document itself, and you might ask the authors to add it if there isn't already something there. But if there's a reason not to put it in the document, an explanation in the shepherd writeup will do as a backup. This doesn't have to be long, but its importance increases with the strictness of the policy chosen: "Standards Action", for example, is a heavyweight process that makes new registrations difficult, and should include some justification for that. At the same time, though, "First Come First Served" could do with a few words of assurance that no review is needed for this registry. I said "summarize working group discussion", and I'll especially note that if there is no working group discussion there to summarize, that should set warning bells off. Registration policies shouldn't just be picked out of a hat; there should be discussion, even if it's brief, about whether the right one's been selected. The policy needs to balance the level of review and approval required with the need to encourage registrations and the consequences of people's using unregistered values. -------------------------------- I'm sorry that this has been a bit long-winded, but these shepherd writeups really do provide a lot of value when they're done with some thought and care. Thanks for reading, and I welcome feedback. (And here's a reminder that these are my thoughts, and don't necessarily reflect the opinions of any other ADs.) Barry, Applications AD From barryleiba@gmail.com Sun Jul 15 08:53:08 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7209D21F84BF for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:53:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xU1+P5X6Z7Xk for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-f172.google.com (mail-qc0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A5E21F850F for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qcac10 with SMTP id c10so3243793qca.31 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=JmaCGq0oaXAh6hUdeT34DbAEuWkwSlGR95sLxE6ne90=; b=Up1vIx5r/NBvaAAk08W3ZlRiXQPB0Bi978K/DtYmCHcyX+bVVDkIBRlwpf3SlmKjjR e+2j6Rup1rt02bJ0fbQ9NnK0hscadlgb/oTAIbKnMGcate9n8xpKMHOliZrMUrFPomF5 NIiAzU+OLJ5GLRPLe4YyFKeysqG6lMP4bwr51NjzZaOrsp6K5oa2f6quq73Nhn0edUOE UMBSxflZExt72itusd1dbVHHL4MTw9Q0sGBtbMGrulLciDsxXH3mvGBCAedMYTA5t0m6 SNxAFWRNMCGYXtjHQ1kBH+C8pskpSDDs2lW6WIXnpsFWLcMNohmX25iKoK2XFvVtIsNk 0Log== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.202.73 with SMTP id fd9mr15792857qab.23.1342367623613; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.229.245.85 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 11:53:43 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: qOJoX3KFW2nSYQMFNsw9j5T62RU Message-ID: Subject: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup From: Barry Leiba To: wgchairs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:53:09 -0000 In case my other message about the document shepherd writeup in general[1] is too long, and anyone should choose not to read it, I want to extract the comment about question 7. Question 7 is this: > (7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR > disclosures required for full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 > and BCP 79 have already been filed. If not, explain why. Here's what I said about that in the other message: (7) This question has been a bit problematic, not in its existence or in the answers, but in the process of getting the answers. Note that the question is looking for assurance of compliance with BCP 79, and note that BCP 79 specifically requires disclosure only for IPR that the contributor personally knows about. *Very* often, I'm seeing some delays in getting documents to the responsible AD because one or more of the authors has to go off and ask her company's legal department before answering the query from the shepherd or chair. In general, it should NOT be necessary to ask one's legal advisors about this, and the question the shepherds ask should be worded so as not to give that impression. "Do you or your company have any IPR on this document?" is a clear prompt for someone to check with the lawyers. "Do you personally know of any IPR related to this document that has not already been disclosed?" is more likely to get the right sense across. If people want to voluntarily take the extra step of checking with their companies, that's OK... but please don't phrase your question in a way that makes them think they have to. Barry, Applications AD [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/wgchairs/current/msg10978.html From david.black@emc.com Sun Jul 15 09:28:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8795F21F846C for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:28:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.114, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tk9sOM6vgT8b for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (hop-nat-141.emc.com [168.159.213.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD00421F8491 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si02.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI02.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.55]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id q6FGSeZk014673 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 15 Jul 2012 12:28:41 -0400 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhubhoprd03.lss.emc.com [10.254.221.145]) by hop04-l1d11-si02.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Sun, 15 Jul 2012 12:28:24 -0400 Received: from mxhub23.corp.emc.com (mxhub23.corp.emc.com [128.222.70.135]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id q6FGSNJV000688; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 12:28:23 -0400 Received: from mx15a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.189]) by mxhub23.corp.emc.com ([128.222.70.135]) with mapi; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 12:28:23 -0400 From: To: , Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 12:28:21 -0400 Subject: RE: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Topic: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Index: Ac1iohE8FzzqgdafSPuuvPmQLQGx+AAAvOLw Message-ID: <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE71208DD869B@MX15A.corp.emc.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 16:28:03 -0000 Barry, > In general, it should NOT be necessary to ask one's legal advisors > about this, and the question the shepherds ask should be worded so as > not to give that impression. "Do you or your company have any IPR on > this document?" is a clear prompt for someone to check with the > lawyers. "Do you personally know of any IPR related to this document > that has not already been disclosed?" is more likely to get the right > sense across. If people want to voluntarily take the extra step of > checking with their companies, that's OK... but please don't phrase > your question in a way that makes them think they have to. The suggestions for how to better phrase the question so that it's scoped to the BCP 79 responsibilities are good (IMHO), but it's inevitable that some authors will go for their lawyers regardless of how carefully that question is phrased :-(. I might suggest asking authors about this at the *start* of WG Last Call so that any time required to deal with lawyers runs concurrently w/WG Last Call instead of sequentially. OTOH, here's the form of the question I used last time I sent a draft to the IESG - none of the authors involved went for their lawyers (AFAIK): ------------------ In order to submit the RFC Publication Request for this draft, I need each author to independently confirm that: Any and all appropriate IPR disclosures required for full conformanc= e with the provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79 have already been filed. This is only about disclosures that *you* are required to file. If you are not aware of any such required disclosure, the answer to this request is "Yes, confirmed". ------------------ Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf > Of Barry Leiba > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 11:54 AM > To: wgchairs@ietf.org > Subject: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup >=20 > In case my other message about the document shepherd writeup in > general[1] is too long, and anyone should choose not to read it, I > want to extract the comment about question 7. Question 7 is this: >=20 > > (7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR > > disclosures required for full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 > > and BCP 79 have already been filed. If not, explain why. >=20 > Here's what I said about that in the other message: >=20 > (7) This question has been a bit problematic, not in its existence or > in the answers, but in the process of getting the answers. Note that > the question is looking for assurance of compliance with BCP 79, and > note that BCP 79 specifically requires disclosure only for IPR that > the contributor personally knows about. *Very* often, I'm seeing some > delays in getting documents to the responsible AD because one or more > of the authors has to go off and ask her company's legal department > before answering the query from the shepherd or chair. >=20 > In general, it should NOT be necessary to ask one's legal advisors > about this, and the question the shepherds ask should be worded so as > not to give that impression. "Do you or your company have any IPR on > this document?" is a clear prompt for someone to check with the > lawyers. "Do you personally know of any IPR related to this document > that has not already been disclosed?" is more likely to get the right > sense across. If people want to voluntarily take the extra step of > checking with their companies, that's OK... but please don't phrase > your question in a way that makes them think they have to. >=20 > Barry, Applications AD >=20 > [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/wgchairs/current/msg10978.html From dcrocker@bbiw.net Sun Jul 15 09:42:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1950C21F8484 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cu6VoYIXbKaH for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2011321F84A7 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.11] (adsl-67-127-55-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.127.55.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6FGh0P1013536 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:43:01 -0700 Message-ID: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:42:50 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Barry Leiba Subject: Re: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 16:42:23 -0000 On 7/15/2012 8:53 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: >> (7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR >> disclosures required for full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 >> and BCP 79 have already been filed. If not, explain why. > > Here's what I said about that in the other message: > > (7) This question has been a bit problematic, not in its existence or > in the answers, but in the process of getting the answers. Note that > the question is looking for assurance of compliance with BCP 79, and > note that BCP 79 specifically requires disclosure only for IPR that > the contributor personally knows about. *Very* often, I'm seeing some > delays in getting documents to the responsible AD because one or more > of the authors has to go off and ask her company's legal department > before answering the query from the shepherd or chair. > > In general, it should NOT be necessary to ask one's legal advisors > about this, and the question the shepherds ask should be worded so as > not to give that impression. "Do you or your company have any IPR on > this document?" is a clear prompt for someone to check with the > lawyers. "Do you personally know of any IPR related to this document > that has not already been disclosed?" is more likely to get the right > sense across. If people want to voluntarily take the extra step of > checking with their companies, that's OK... but please don't phrase > your question in a way that makes them think they have to. In its current form, Q7 forces a level of indirection and interpretation. This invites extra work and misinterpretation. The form should itself present the question to be asked. If I'm reading things correctly, that means Q7 should be revised to be: (7) Has each author confirmed that their direct, personal knowledge of any IPR related to this document has already been disclosed, per BCP 79? I added the reference to bcp 79 merely to anchor the question. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Mon Jul 16 03:48:46 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872CF21F8658 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 03:48:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.702, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z+WbMyVL86Er for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 03:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DEBB21F86FD for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 03:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 594B78A031 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 10:49:29 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 06:49:29 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Message-ID: <20120716104928.GA96149@mail.yitter.info> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 10:48:46 -0000 On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 11:53:43AM -0400, Barry Leiba wrote: > > (7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR > > disclosures required for full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 > > and BCP 79 have already been filed. If not, explain why. > note that BCP 79 specifically requires disclosure only for IPR that > the contributor personally knows about. Even though BCP 79 requires that, the question is (perhaps unfortunately) not worded that way. The question asks whether each author has "confirmed" that "any and all appropriate … disclosures" have been made. Given BCP 78's section 5.1, I'm not surprised that our asking people to be sure about this is causing them to talk to their legal departments. But more importantly, why shouldn't the question cause people to ask their legal departments? I seem to recall a recent event in which there turned out to be IPR and someone claimed to be naive or foolish or whatever. Isn't the point of this question to cause people to be unable to claim ignorance when they "ought to have known"? Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From stpeter@stpeter.im Mon Jul 16 07:39:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B5921F867B for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:39:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.514 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.514 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SCVcVvNDTlTy for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB6821F8616 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.101.72.115] (unknown [64.101.72.115]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DE5C40075; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 08:59:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 08:40:21 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup References: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> In-Reply-To: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:39:38 -0000 On 7/15/12 10:42 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > > On 7/15/2012 8:53 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: >>> (7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR >>> disclosures required for full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 >>> and BCP 79 have already been filed. If not, explain why. >> >> Here's what I said about that in the other message: >> >> (7) This question has been a bit problematic, not in its existence or >> in the answers, but in the process of getting the answers. Note that >> the question is looking for assurance of compliance with BCP 79, and >> note that BCP 79 specifically requires disclosure only for IPR that >> the contributor personally knows about. *Very* often, I'm seeing some >> delays in getting documents to the responsible AD because one or more >> of the authors has to go off and ask her company's legal department >> before answering the query from the shepherd or chair. >> >> In general, it should NOT be necessary to ask one's legal advisors >> about this, and the question the shepherds ask should be worded so as >> not to give that impression. "Do you or your company have any IPR on >> this document?" is a clear prompt for someone to check with the >> lawyers. "Do you personally know of any IPR related to this document >> that has not already been disclosed?" is more likely to get the right >> sense across. If people want to voluntarily take the extra step of >> checking with their companies, that's OK... but please don't phrase >> your question in a way that makes them think they have to. > > > In its current form, Q7 forces a level of indirection and > interpretation. This invites extra work and misinterpretation. > > The form should itself present the question to be asked. > > If I'm reading things correctly, that means Q7 should be revised to be: > > (7) Has each author confirmed that their direct, personal knowledge > of any IPR related to this document has already been disclosed, per BCP 79? > > I added the reference to bcp 79 merely to anchor the question. That seems sensible. I like the focus on "direct, personal knowledge"; Tim Polk and I emphasized that as well in our I-D on "Promoting Compliance with Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) Disclosure Rules": https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-polk-ipr-disclosure/ Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From dworley@avaya.com Mon Jul 16 09:26:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF1621F8628 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:26:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SjV25-0nM4qT for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com (p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com [135.11.29.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD1D21F85F9 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:26:19 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFAHpABFCHCzI1/2dsb2JhbABFhWmyNYEegQeCIAEBAQECARIREUUQAgEIDQ0CJgICAjAVEAEBBA4NGodlBp8tih6SU4Egj1UyYAObM4oOgns X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,594,1336363200"; d="scan'208";a="18355326" Received: from unknown (HELO p-us1-erheast.us1.avaya.com) ([135.11.50.53]) by p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP; 16 Jul 2012 12:22:32 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO DC-US1HCEX4.global.avaya.com) ([135.11.52.35]) by p-us1-erheast-out.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP; 16 Jul 2012 12:07:47 -0400 Received: from DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com ([169.254.2.202]) by DC-US1HCEX4.global.avaya.com ([135.11.52.35]) with mapi; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:27:00 -0400 From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" To: "stpeter@stpeter.im" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:26:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Topic: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Index: Ac1jb9MUeZ8nkh67SuSj+CCDIEvZgw== Message-ID: References: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , "barryleiba@computer.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:26:20 -0000 PiA+IEluIGl0cyBjdXJyZW50IGZvcm0sIFE3IGZvcmNlcyBhIGxldmVsIG9mIGluZGlyZWN0aW9u IGFuZAo+ID4gaW50ZXJwcmV0YXRpb24uICBUaGlzIGludml0ZXMgZXh0cmEgd29yayBhbmQgbWlz aW50ZXJwcmV0YXRpb24uCj4gPiAKPiA+IFRoZSBmb3JtIHNob3VsZCBpdHNlbGYgcHJlc2VudCB0 aGUgcXVlc3Rpb24gdG8gYmUgYXNrZWQuCj4gPiAKPiA+IElmIEknbSByZWFkaW5nIHRoaW5ncyBj b3JyZWN0bHksIHRoYXQgbWVhbnMgUTcgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHJldmlzZWQgdG8gYmU6Cj4gPiAKPiA+ ICAgICAgKDcpIEhhcyBlYWNoIGF1dGhvciBjb25maXJtZWQgdGhhdCB0aGVpciBkaXJlY3QsIHBl cnNvbmFsIGtub3dsZWRnZQo+ID4gb2YgYW55IElQUiByZWxhdGVkIHRvIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQg aGFzIGFscmVhZHkgYmVlbiBkaXNjbG9zZWQsIHBlciBCQ1AgNzk/Cj4gPiAKPiA+IEkgYWRkZWQg dGhlIHJlZmVyZW5jZSB0byBiY3AgNzkgbWVyZWx5IHRvIGFuY2hvciB0aGUgcXVlc3Rpb24uCgpJ ZGVhbGx5LCB0aGUgcXVlc3Rpb24gd291bGQgcXVvdGUgYWxsIHRoZSBuZWNlc3NhcnkgcGFydHMg b2YgdGhlIEJDUHMsCnNvIHRoYXQgdGhlIHNlY3Rpb24gb2YgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHNoZXBoZXJk IHdyaXRldXAgY291bGQgYmUgY29tcGxldGVseQpzZWxmLWNvbnRhaW5lZCwgYW5kIHNpbXBseSBt YWlsZWQgdG8gZWFjaCBvZiB0aGUgYXV0aG9ycy4gIEZyb20gbXkKZXhwZXJpZW5jZSBhcyBhIGRv Y3VtZW50IHNoZXBoZXJkLCB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIGhhdmUgYmVlbiB0aGUgZWFzaWVzdApzaXR1YXRp b24uCgpUaGUgcXVlc3Rpb24gdGhlbiBpcyB3aGV0aGVyIHF1b3RpbmcgdGhlIG5lY2Vzc2FyeSBw YXJ0cyBvZiB0aGUgQkNQcwp3b3VsZCBtYWtlIHRoZSBzZWN0aW9uIHNvIGxvbmcgYXMgdG8gYmUg aW1wcmFjdGljYWwuCgpJbiByZWdhcmQgdG8gdGhlIGFib3ZlIHByb3Bvc2FsLCB0aGF0IHRleHQg c3VnZ2VzdHMgdGhhdCAqbm8qIHBhcnRzIG9mCnRoZSBCQ1BzIGhhdmUgdG8gYmUgcmVhZCB0byBh bnN3ZXIgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uLiAgU28gSSB3b3VsZCBwaHJhc2UgaXQKdGhpcyB3YXk6CgogICg3 KSBIYXMgZWFjaCBhdXRob3IgY29uZmlybWVkIHRoYXQgdGhlaXIgZGlyZWN0LCBwZXJzb25hbCBr bm93bGVkZ2UKICAgICAgb2YgYW55IElQUiByZWxhdGVkIHRvIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgaGFzIGFs cmVhZHkgYmVlbiBkaXNjbG9zZWQsCiAgICAgIGFzIGlzIHJlcXVpcmVkIGJ5IEJDUCA3OT8KClRo YXQgcGhyYXNpbmcgaW1wbGllcyB0aGF0IHJlYWRpbmcgQkNQIDc5IGlzIG5vdCByZXF1aXJlZCB0 byBhbnN3ZXIgdGhlCnF1ZXN0aW9uLgoKRGFsZQoK From dcrocker@bbiw.net Mon Jul 16 13:25:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D30821F87A8 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:25:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.526 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.526 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.073, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BeNrM9+tpHWK for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846B311E8091 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.11] (adsl-67-127-55-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.127.55.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6GKQHnr010052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:26:18 -0700 Message-ID: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:26:04 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Working Group Chairs Subject: Criteria for removing "unused" features Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:26:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:25:34 -0000 Howdy. This note is a preliminary query about a continuing point of IETF debate, namely the criteria for removing features from a specification, when there is a -bis revision effort. We have little documented guidance about the issue. This encourages inconsistency or, worse, semantics debates. I'm sending a note to wgchairs, before wider IETF circulation, to seek discussion in a smaller-but-experienced group. The topic has currency for a number of us in this group. I'm hoping folks can converge on a consistent view about criteria. RFC 6410 moved the IETF to two standards levels. It includes: "the change will result in the incorporation of lessons from implementation and deployment experience, and recognition that protocols are improved by removing complexity associated with unused features." Note the word "unused". While the text nicely cites the benefit of reducing complexity -- and since it's not the focus of the document, there isn't a discussion of why reduced complexity is a benefit -- it does not provide any concrete basis for determining that something is "unused". An example of a semantics debate is whether its presence in a charter means that there must be literally no software supporting the feature or whether there must merely be an extremely small amount of software. It also raises the question of whether there the requirement is for absolutely no field operation that exercises the code or whether there can be only a small amount. Absent clarification, the word invites debate about development versus operation, and mathematically perfect zero or statistically meaningful "little". Thoughts? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From leifj@sunet.se Mon Jul 16 13:52:19 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E05E11E829D for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:52:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3RRkOytRqNq7 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from backup-server.nordu.net (backup-server.nordu.net [IPv6:2001:948:4:1::66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163CF11E82AD for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.11] (ua-83-227-179-169.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se [83.227.179.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by backup-server.nordu.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6GKqwN8001665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 22:53:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <50047F2A.3070700@sunet.se> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 22:52:58 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120615 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Criteria for removing "unused" features References: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> In-Reply-To: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:52:19 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07/16/2012 10:26 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > Howdy. > > This note is a preliminary query about a continuing point of IETF > debate, namely the criteria for removing features from a > specification, when there is a -bis revision effort. > > We have little documented guidance about the issue. This > encourages inconsistency or, worse, semantics debates. I'm sending > a note to wgchairs, before wider IETF circulation, to seek > discussion in a smaller-but-experienced group. The topic has > currency for a number of us in this group. > > I'm hoping folks can converge on a consistent view about criteria. > > RFC 6410 moved the IETF to two standards levels. It includes: > > "the change will result in the incorporation of lessons from > implementation and deployment experience, and recognition that > protocols are improved by removing complexity associated with > unused features." > > Note the word "unused". While the text nicely cites the benefit > of reducing complexity -- and since it's not the focus of the > document, there isn't a discussion of why reduced complexity is a > benefit -- it does not provide any concrete basis for determining > that something is "unused". > > An example of a semantics debate is whether its presence in a > charter means that there must be literally no software supporting > the feature or whether there must merely be an extremely small > amount of software. It also raises the question of whether there > the requirement is for absolutely no field operation that exercises > the code or whether there can be only a small amount. > > Absent clarification, the word invites debate about development > versus operation, and mathematically perfect zero or statistically > meaningful "little". Its often very hard to tell the difference between "very little" and "widely deployed but only in small communities", especially when one is wearing the "internetscale-spectacles" (as we tend to in the IETF). Maybe a better yardstick is if the spec has lead to interoperable implementations of the feature, rather than attempting to measure its impact. Leif -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAEfyUACgkQ8Jx8FtbMZneYFACfT6Qy21mCxffUj/GPYGpGZMQE 79IAoLSMfnwO4tPieb2qGQEGeT1LUw34 =B17w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ajs@crankycanuck.ca Mon Jul 16 14:14:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF99A11E80C0 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:14:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.541 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.541 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GHYQuTFuFMSa for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBFF711E8085 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BACF08A031 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:14:48 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 17:14:45 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Criteria for removing "unused" features Message-ID: <20120716211445.GO96149@crankycanuck.ca> References: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:27:58 -0700 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:14:06 -0000 Dear colleagues, Dave: On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 01:26:04PM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: > We have little documented guidance about the issue. This encourages > inconsistency or, worse, semantics debates. I'm not actually sure why a semantic debate in this case would be worse, since as a matter of fact this issue is one of semantics. I take your mail to be an attempt to resolve the semantics of "unused" once and for all. > An example of a semantics debate is whether its presence in a > charter means that there must be literally no software supporting > the feature or whether there must merely be an extremely small > amount of software. It also raises the question of whether there the > requirement is for absolutely no field operation that exercises the > code or whether there can be only a small amount. > > Absent clarification, the word invites debate about development > versus operation, and mathematically perfect zero or statistically > meaningful "little". In one example with which I am familiar (SPFBIS), there is an additional matter at work: the charter was, on purpose, scoped very narrowly. I therefore would like to suggest that any attempt to answer the meaning of "unused" once and for all neglects the context in which the term is employed. In the case I'm thinking of, the overall thrust of the charter is to move a protocol from the experimental track to the standards track with as few changes as possible.[1] Future work might be chartered to advance the resulting protocol along the standards track, at which time additional changes might be contemplated. In that context, the bar for showing a feature is "unused" is -- or in my opinion anyway ought to be -- somewhat high. Evidence of deployment of the feature is _prima facie_ evidence that the feature is used, even if it is used rarely. An ugly feature for which we have evidence of actual use, even if we think that use is stupid or foolish, is still a used feature. I don't see how it would help to pretend that it's not really used, just because it's not used by our friends. A similar bar might not exist in other cases. Perhaps, for instance, deployment of the protocol is narrow and recent, and it is practical to ask everybody who's ever been involved with the protocol what has happened. Perhaps the experiment has actually run according to its original estimates, and hasn't become a part of production code in large sites on the Internet. Perhaps the feature is obviously redundant. All of these seem to me to be factors that need to be weighed by the WG in making its decision as to what is going to count as "unused". Unfortunately, that boils down to a semantic question. Again in the case of SPFBIS, the debate about the meaning of "unused" revealed an important feature of the use of RRTYPE 99, which was that the protocol was actually broken as written. This meant that, even if the RRTYPE was used, it could not be used reliably and interoperably; the WG made its determinations accordingly. I'd be reluctant to constrain the freedom of other WGs in attacking similar problems. Best, A [1] One response to this state of affairs might be to object that the original charter was in error: if changes are to be made to a protocol, it seems that it would be preferable to introduce them when moving from experimental to standards track, partly on the basis of experience from the experiment. While I see the merits of that argument in the abstract, it appears to me that in the example I'm thinking of the conclusion was otherwise. In any case, it's irrelevant to the meaning of "unused". -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@crankycanuck.ca From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Mon Jul 16 14:31:49 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B01E21F8732 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.661, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i0RPMRGkWL0n for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7270521F8575 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BC1EB8A031 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:32:33 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 17:32:32 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Criteria for removing "unused" features Message-ID: <20120716213231.GR96149@crankycanuck.ca> References: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:31:49 -0000 Trying again, from my subscribed address. Sigh. Dear colleagues, Dave: On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 01:26:04PM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: > We have little documented guidance about the issue. This encourages > inconsistency or, worse, semantics debates. I'm not actually sure why a semantic debate in this case would be worse, since as a matter of fact this issue is one of semantics. I take your mail to be an attempt to resolve the semantics of "unused" once and for all. > An example of a semantics debate is whether its presence in a > charter means that there must be literally no software supporting > the feature or whether there must merely be an extremely small > amount of software. It also raises the question of whether there the > requirement is for absolutely no field operation that exercises the > code or whether there can be only a small amount. > > Absent clarification, the word invites debate about development > versus operation, and mathematically perfect zero or statistically > meaningful "little". In one example with which I am familiar (SPFBIS), there is an additional matter at work: the charter was, on purpose, scoped very narrowly. I therefore would like to suggest that any attempt to answer the meaning of "unused" once and for all neglects the context in which the term is employed. In the case I'm thinking of, the overall thrust of the charter is to move a protocol from the experimental track to the standards track with as few changes as possible.[1] Future work might be chartered to advance the resulting protocol along the standards track, at which time additional changes might be contemplated. In that context, the bar for showing a feature is "unused" is -- or in my opinion anyway ought to be -- somewhat high. Evidence of deployment of the feature is _prima facie_ evidence that the feature is used, even if it is used rarely. An ugly feature for which we have evidence of actual use, even if we think that use is stupid or foolish, is still a used feature. I don't see how it would help to pretend that it's not really used, just because it's not used by our friends. A similar bar might not exist in other cases. Perhaps, for instance, deployment of the protocol is narrow and recent, and it is practical to ask everybody who's ever been involved with the protocol what has happened. Perhaps the experiment has actually run according to its original estimates, and hasn't become a part of production code in large sites on the Internet. Perhaps the feature is obviously redundant. All of these seem to me to be factors that need to be weighed by the WG in making its decision as to what is going to count as "unused". Unfortunately, that boils down to a semantic question. Again in the case of SPFBIS, the debate about the meaning of "unused" revealed an important feature of the use of RRTYPE 99, which was that the protocol was actually broken as written. This meant that, even if the RRTYPE was used, it could not be used reliably and interoperably; the WG made its determinations accordingly. I'd be reluctant to constrain the freedom of other WGs in attacking similar problems. Best, A [1] One response to this state of affairs might be to object that the original charter was in error: if changes are to be made to a protocol, it seems that it would be preferable to introduce them when moving from experimental to standards track, partly on the basis of experience from the experiment. While I see the merits of that argument in the abstract, it appears to me that in the example I'm thinking of the conclusion was otherwise. In any case, it's irrelevant to the meaning of "unused". -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From dworley@avaya.com Mon Jul 16 15:09:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84BB611E8257 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:09:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.195 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.195 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.404, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SRvxcjSASXcn for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from co300216-co-outbound.net.avaya.com (co300216-co-outbound.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A62811E8112 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:09:36 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFANeQBFDGmAcF/2dsb2JhbABFhWmyS4EcgQeCIAEBAQEDEhERRRACAQgNCwICJgICAjAVEAEBBA4NGodrnyKKHpJ/gSCPVTJgA5szig6Cew X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,597,1336363200"; d="scan'208";a="357577187" Received: from unknown (HELO co300216-co-erhwest.avaya.com) ([198.152.7.5]) by co300216-co-outbound.net.avaya.com with ESMTP; 16 Jul 2012 18:06:51 -0400 Received: from dc-us1hcex1.us1.avaya.com (HELO DC-US1HCEX1.global.avaya.com) ([135.11.52.20]) by co300216-co-erhwest-out.avaya.com with ESMTP; 16 Jul 2012 18:06:48 -0400 Received: from DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com ([169.254.2.202]) by DC-US1HCEX1.global.avaya.com ([2002:870b:3414::870b:3414]) with mapi; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:10:22 -0400 From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" To: "cabo@tzi.org" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:10:21 -0400 Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Thread-Topic: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Thread-Index: Ac1jn8q70xsepYyYQ8Oy44aPMBhVOg== Message-ID: References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> <50009FEE.5060504@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 22:09:39 -0000 T24gU2F0LCAyMDEyLTA3LTE0IGF0IDEwOjU1ICswMjAwLCBDYXJzdGVuIEJvcm1hbm4gd3JvdGU6 Cj4gQnV0IGFwYXJ0IGZyb20gdGhhdCwgSSByZWFsbHkgZG9uJ3QgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB3aHkgcGVv cGxlIHdhbnQgdG8gdGFrZQo+IG9mZmljZSBhcyBXRyBjaGFpcnMgYW5kIHRoZW4gbWFrZSBpdCBo YXJkIGZvciBvdGhlcnMgaW4gdGhlIElFVEYgdG8KPiBmaW5kIHRoZW0gaW4gcGVyc29uLgoKV0cg Y2hhaXJzIGFscmVhZHkgaGF2ZSB0byB3ZWFyIHRoZSBkcmVhZGVkIEdyZWVuIERvdC4gIEl0J3Mg b25seSB0d28Kc3RlcHMgYmVmb3JlIHRoZXkgaGF2ZSB0byBzaG91dCAiVW5jbGVhbiEgIFVuY2xl YW4hIiB3aGlsZSB3YWxraW5nIGRvd24KdGhlIGhhbGx3YXlzLgoKRGFsZQoK From sob@harvard.edu Mon Jul 16 15:10:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB8C021F8642 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:10:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vihDyOxlOA0f for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ackroyd.harvard.edu (ackroyd.harvard.edu [128.103.208.29]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C191C21F85D6 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 15:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.university.harvard.edu (entwedge0000004.university.harvard.edu [10.35.202.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ackroyd.harvard.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39261E914F; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ENTWHUBT0000005.university.harvard.edu (10.32.208.51) by entwedge0000004.university.harvard.edu (10.35.202.51) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:11:27 -0400 Received: from ENTWEXMB0000008.university.harvard.edu ([169.254.1.84]) by ENTWHUBT0000005.university.harvard.edu ([10.32.208.51]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:11:35 -0400 From: "Bradner, Scott" To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" Subject: Re: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Thread-Topic: WG Chair Photo Directory Reminder Thread-Index: Ac1jn8q70xsepYyYQ8Oy44aPMBhVOgAIcOGA Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 22:11:35 +0000 Message-ID: <09C00A42-533C-474A-8E14-8D7B348FB247@harvard.edu> References: <08CB3318-D2E1-4833-85CF-36D1FC74280D@amsl.com> <5000386D.4090004@bbiw.net> <7202FD15D548F71CA2D4F4F4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <50005366.2010800@nostrum.com> <50009FEE.5060504@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.166.5.69] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3798A0381142634DA2B78BD89AFE3162@Exchange.university.harvard.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 22:10:54 -0000 s/green/blue/ On Jul 16, 2012, at 6:10 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: > On Sat, 2012-07-14 at 10:55 +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> But apart from that, I really don't understand why people want to take >> office as WG chairs and then make it hard for others in the IETF to >> find them in person. >=20 > WG chairs already have to wear the dreaded Green Dot. It's only two > steps before they have to shout "Unclean! Unclean!" while walking down > the hallways. >=20 > Dale >=20 From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Jul 16 16:20:15 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E6F011E829C for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:20:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.727 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.727 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.478, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SATaRQ2uCIvH for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [62.23.212.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F7B11E8141 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.62]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id q6GNKl9R004939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Jul 2012 01:20:49 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.44]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.62]) with mapi; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 01:20:47 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: Dave Crocker , Working Group Chairs Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 01:20:45 +0200 Subject: RE: Criteria for removing "unused" features Thread-Topic: Criteria for removing "unused" features Thread-Index: Ac1jkVOwG3d7SDpCSYOYfh91YO84kgAAR6Ew Message-ID: References: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> In-Reply-To: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.69 on 155.132.188.80 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 23:20:15 -0000 I'd offer two thoughts: 1) In order to advance to the new level (which is I assume what you are try= ing to do) you need to test all the features for interoperability. If the f= eatured is unused, then you will not be able to do the test, because no one= will have implemented. So your search for implementations to cover the com= plete set of features may already identify this. If you cannot perform such= tests, then you either have to assume that the document is not ready to ad= vance, or that it is "unused". 2) Is removing a feature effectively putting it in the same status as "hist= orical" when applied to an entire RFC? RFC 2023 gives very little input on = what criteria to apply to declare an RFC historical, but at least it has ha= ppened in the past, and may provide some input. Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Dave Crocker > Sent: 16 July 2012 21:26 > To: Working Group Chairs > Subject: Criteria for removing "unused" features >=20 > Howdy. >=20 > This note is a preliminary query about a continuing point of IETF > debate, namely the criteria for removing features from a specification, > when there is a -bis revision effort. >=20 > We have little documented guidance about the issue. This encourages > inconsistency or, worse, semantics debates. I'm sending a note to > wgchairs, before wider IETF circulation, to seek discussion in a > smaller-but-experienced group. The topic has currency for a number of > us in this group. >=20 > I'm hoping folks can converge on a consistent view about criteria. >=20 > RFC 6410 moved the IETF to two standards levels. It includes: >=20 > "the change will result in the > incorporation of lessons from implementation and deployment > experience, and recognition that protocols are improved by removing > complexity associated with unused features." >=20 > Note the word "unused". While the text nicely cites the benefit of > reducing complexity -- and since it's not the focus of the document, > there isn't a discussion of why reduced complexity is a benefit -- it > does not provide any concrete basis for determining that something is > "unused". >=20 > An example of a semantics debate is whether its presence in a charter > means that there must be literally no software supporting the feature or > whether there must merely be an extremely small amount of software. It > also raises the question of whether there the requirement is for > absolutely no field operation that exercises the code or whether there > can be only a small amount. >=20 > Absent clarification, the word invites debate about development versus > operation, and mathematically perfect zero or statistically meaningful > "little". >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > d/ > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net From mnot@mnot.net Mon Jul 16 16:48:42 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A71D11E82F9 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:48:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.611, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cu-Zq1DHFlBU for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E2C11E828B for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mnot-mini.mnot.net (unknown [118.209.196.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EFA2D22E256; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Criteria for removing "unused" features Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:49:23 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <962AB9B0-B98A-4522-8E71-4EA3D425DA8C@mnot.net> References: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> To: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: Working Group Chairs X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 23:48:42 -0000 In HTTPbis, we aren't removing features, but we will sometimes deprecate = them (i.e., offer advice cautioning against their use). In something as = widely deployed as HTTP, there aren't any completely unused features. Cheers, On 17/07/2012, at 6:26 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > Howdy. >=20 > This note is a preliminary query about a continuing point of IETF = debate, namely the criteria for removing features from a specification, = when there is a -bis revision effort. >=20 > We have little documented guidance about the issue. This encourages = inconsistency or, worse, semantics debates. I'm sending a note to = wgchairs, before wider IETF circulation, to seek discussion in a = smaller-but-experienced group. The topic has currency for a number of = us in this group. >=20 > I'm hoping folks can converge on a consistent view about criteria. >=20 > RFC 6410 moved the IETF to two standards levels. It includes: >=20 > "the change will result in the > incorporation of lessons from implementation and deployment > experience, and recognition that protocols are improved by removing > complexity associated with unused features." >=20 > Note the word "unused". While the text nicely cites the benefit of = reducing complexity -- and since it's not the focus of the document, = there isn't a discussion of why reduced complexity is a benefit -- it = does not provide any concrete basis for determining that something is = "unused". >=20 > An example of a semantics debate is whether its presence in a charter = means that there must be literally no software supporting the feature or = whether there must merely be an extremely small amount of software. It = also raises the question of whether there the requirement is for = absolutely no field operation that exercises the code or whether there = can be only a small amount. >=20 > Absent clarification, the word invites debate about development versus = operation, and mathematically perfect zero or statistically meaningful = "little". >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > d/ > --=20 > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net >=20 -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From david.black@emc.com Mon Jul 16 16:53:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20CE11E8166 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:53:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.493 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.493 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.106, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GMHMYvRNK4Dw for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (hop-nat-141.emc.com [168.159.213.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E187F11E8086 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI01.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.54]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id q6GNrwvV016588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:53:59 -0400 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhub.lss.emc.com [10.254.222.226]) by hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:53:42 -0400 Received: from mxhub14.corp.emc.com (mxhub14.corp.emc.com [128.222.70.235]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id q6GNrfuc024496; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:53:42 -0400 Received: from mx15a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.189]) by mxhub14.corp.emc.com ([128.222.70.235]) with mapi; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:53:41 -0400 From: To: , Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:53:39 -0400 Subject: RE: Criteria for removing "unused" features Thread-Topic: Criteria for removing "unused" features Thread-Index: Ac1jkVOwG3d7SDpCSYOYfh91YO84kgAAR6EwAAalUsA= Message-ID: <8D3D17ACE214DC429325B2B98F3AE71208DD882C@MX15A.corp.emc.com> References: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 23:53:19 -0000 > 1) In order to advance to the new level (which is I assume what you are > trying to do) you need to test all the features for interoperability. If = the > featured is unused, then you will not be able to do the test, because no = one > will have implemented. So your search for implementations to cover the > complete set of features may already identify this. If you cannot perform= such > tests, then you either have to assume that the document is not ready to > advance, or that it is "unused". Not exactly ... excerpting selectively from RFC 6410 that defines the new level: The IESG, in an IETF-wide Last Call of at least four weeks, confirms that a document advances from Proposed Standard to Internet Standard. The request for reclassification is sent to the IESG along with an explanation of how the criteria have been met. The criteria are: (3) There are no unused features in the specification that greatly increase implementation complexity. 3.2. Requirement for Interoperability Testing Reporting Testing for interoperability is a long tradition in the development of Internet protocols and remains important for reliable deployment of services. The IETF Standards Process no longer requires a formal interoperability report, recognizing that deployment and use is sufficient to show interoperability. So, unused features are not a bar to advancement, but the IESG owns the judgment call on whether they're ok vs. "greatly increase implementation complexity." OTOH, the burden of explaining why they should remain (correctly, IMHO) falls on the WG or people making the request for reclassification. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf > Of DRAGE, Keith (Keith) > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:21 PM > To: Dave Crocker; Working Group Chairs > Subject: RE: Criteria for removing "unused" features >=20 > I'd offer two thoughts: >=20 > 1) In order to advance to the new level (which is I assume what you are > trying to do) you need to test all the features for interoperability. If = the > featured is unused, then you will not be able to do the test, because no = one > will have implemented. So your search for implementations to cover the > complete set of features may already identify this. If you cannot perform= such > tests, then you either have to assume that the document is not ready to > advance, or that it is "unused". >=20 > 2) Is removing a feature effectively putting it in the same status as > "historical" when applied to an entire RFC? RFC 2023 gives very little in= put > on what criteria to apply to declare an RFC historical, but at least it h= as > happened in the past, and may provide some input. >=20 > Keith >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Dave Crocker > > Sent: 16 July 2012 21:26 > > To: Working Group Chairs > > Subject: Criteria for removing "unused" features > > > > Howdy. > > > > This note is a preliminary query about a continuing point of IETF > > debate, namely the criteria for removing features from a specification, > > when there is a -bis revision effort. > > > > We have little documented guidance about the issue. This encourages > > inconsistency or, worse, semantics debates. I'm sending a note to > > wgchairs, before wider IETF circulation, to seek discussion in a > > smaller-but-experienced group. The topic has currency for a number of > > us in this group. > > > > I'm hoping folks can converge on a consistent view about criteria. > > > > RFC 6410 moved the IETF to two standards levels. It includes: > > > > "the change will result in the > > incorporation of lessons from implementation and deployment > > experience, and recognition that protocols are improved by removing > > complexity associated with unused features." > > > > Note the word "unused". While the text nicely cites the benefit of > > reducing complexity -- and since it's not the focus of the document, > > there isn't a discussion of why reduced complexity is a benefit -- it > > does not provide any concrete basis for determining that something is > > "unused". > > > > An example of a semantics debate is whether its presence in a charter > > means that there must be literally no software supporting the feature o= r > > whether there must merely be an extremely small amount of software. It > > also raises the question of whether there the requirement is for > > absolutely no field operation that exercises the code or whether there > > can be only a small amount. > > > > Absent clarification, the word invites debate about development versus > > operation, and mathematically perfect zero or statistically meaningful > > "little". > > > > Thoughts? > > > > d/ > > -- > > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > > bbiw.net >=20 From dcrocker@bbiw.net Tue Jul 17 10:15:05 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA4F21F85D4 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.529 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.529 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BQHKi8a6U-Zf for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF18A21F862F for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (adsl-67-127-55-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.127.55.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6HHFpbf019918 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:15:52 -0700 Message-ID: <50059DB9.1030403@bbiw.net> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:15:37 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Criteria for removing "unused" features References: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> <50047F2A.3070700@sunet.se> In-Reply-To: <50047F2A.3070700@sunet.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:15:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 17:15:05 -0000 On 7/16/2012 1:52 PM, Leif Johansson wrote: > Its often very hard to tell the difference between "very little" and > "widely deployed but only in small communities", especially when one > is wearing the "internetscale-spectacles" (as we tend to in the > IETF). > > Maybe a better yardstick is if the spec has lead to interoperable > implementations of the feature, rather than attempting to measure its > impact. A word like "unused" is relatively common for -bis working group charters. I believe that charters for such working groups are typically worded to be relatively restrictive, to avoid a working group's possible tendency towards too much change, ignoring effects on the installed base. In querying the group, I am hoping that we can work with that type of word, since it represents established IETF practice. Rather than considering a change to the basic practice of wording charters, I'm hoping to get a stable interpretation of meaning. I believe an essential point behind a word like "unused", and especially for a -bis effort to revise a specification that has been deployed into production service, is what the field /use/ of the feature has been. Note that we no longer have Draft standards status. While -bis efforts have often been for deployed specifications, it is now essentially guaranteed. The case of revising a specification that has merely undergone 'testing' is essentially removed from the IETF standards process and, I think, therefore removed from likely wg chartering language. When talking about possible changes for a specification that has not received much or any field operation, there is greater flexibility. When talking about possible changes for a specification that has an installed base of Internet users, things are more challenging, primarily from a concern about the effect on the installed base of users. So that's the case I meant to focus on with my query. My own preference would be a group consensus that is not subtle or contingent. That is, one that interprets "unused" in a reasonably consistent manner across a wide range of cases. There might be additional language the would constrain or expand the charter's scope and flexibility, but I would hope that it would not change the IETF definition of "unused"... As a simple example, I would hope that "unused" is not confused with (or by) "broken". Something can be broken and used. Something can be entirely functional but unused. It's really an orthogonal construct. So I would hope that a charter intending to cover both concerns would explicitly distinguish between features that do not function as intended (broken) and those that have not gained traction (unused). On 7/16/2012 4:49 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > In HTTPbis, we aren't removing features, but we will sometimes > deprecate them (i.e., offer advice cautioning against their use). In > something as widely deployed as HTTP, there aren't any completely > unused features. I think that deprecating vs. removing is another independent issue. It arises once one has satisfied some criteria that classes a feature as a candidate for removal or deprecation. An example of a criterion would be... that it is unused. Again, I'm hoping we can agree on a definition of unused that neither depends upon context nor upon what action will be taken. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From dcrocker@bbiw.net Tue Jul 17 10:20:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981EB11E8095 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:20:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zETjrvpNr406 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E951611E8087 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (adsl-67-127-55-201.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.127.55.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6HHKMUW020036 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:20:22 -0700 Message-ID: <50059EC7.70002@bbiw.net> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:20:07 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan Subject: semantics References: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> <20120716213231.GR96149@crankycanuck.ca> In-Reply-To: <20120716213231.GR96149@crankycanuck.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 17:20:06 -0000 On 7/16/2012 2:32 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 01:26:04PM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: > >> >We have little documented guidance about the issue. This encourages >> >inconsistency or, worse, semantics debates. > I'm not actually sure why a semantic debate in this case > would be worse, since as a matter of fact this issue is one of > semantics. I take your mail to be an attempt to > resolve the semantics of "unused" once and for all. Indeed, I meant that qualifying text a bit ironically. Since communications relies on shared meaning and semantics means meaning, I too consider it a core issue. However what most people mean when they say that someone is arguing semantics is that they are quibbling about small differences. That most people don't understand (or intend) the correct meaning of semantics is the irony. As for why I meant "worse", I consider quibbling worse than worrying about specification inconsistency because worrying about inconsistency is productive. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Tue Jul 17 10:49:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C655A21F866C for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:49:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.475 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.475 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.635, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XzadWO82IlQD for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A48921F860E for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A80468A031 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 17:50:05 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 13:50:03 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Criteria for removing "unused" features Message-ID: <20120717175003.GU96149@mail.yitter.info> References: <500478DC.9050508@bbiw.net> <50047F2A.3070700@sunet.se> <50059DB9.1030403@bbiw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <50059DB9.1030403@bbiw.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 17:49:18 -0000 On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 10:15:37AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: > I believe an essential point behind a word like "unused", and especially > for a -bis effort to revise a specification that has been deployed into > production service, is what the field /use/ of the feature has been. > My own preference would be a group consensus that is not subtle or > contingent. > Again, I'm hoping we can agree on a definition of unused that neither > depends upon context nor upon what action will be taken. The above is easily achieved. We can do it by fiat. If and only if there is not at least one observed occasion of the deployment of a feature on the Internet, then the feature is unused. This meets all your criteria above, though it has two problems: 1. It depends on the observers. If nobody we know has looked (this definition doesn't require that anyone has), then the feature meets the test for "unused" even if it's in wide use. 2. It sets the bar for being used lower than your message yesterday suggested you wanted it to be set. To solve (1), of course, we could appeal to good behaviour on the IETF participants' part, the open standards process, and assumptions about our ability to attract operators of standards into our processes. Even if I thought those were good points (and, frankly, there are very few operators at the IETF), that's all contingent. To solve (2), of course, we could just change the value of "at least one" to some other value. But it seems unlikely that we are going to come up with a number that will satisfy there, because the right number surely needs to depend on judgements about actual deployments. For instance, "at least one person" doing something with an EPP extension probably qualifies as "use", because the EPP-using population is small and narrow in diversity. "At least one person" doing something with DNS is a little harder to defend. We moved A6 to HISTORIC even as A6 queries continued to land at the root servers. I am having a hard time understanding what problem you are trying to solve. Consistency is nice, sure, but I wonder whether we're into hobgoblin-land here. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From ietf-secretariat@ietf.org Tue Jul 17 14:41:59 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A5921F857A; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:41:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.071, BAYES_20=-0.74, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, GB_I_LETTER=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZV1Zo8KqOuPm; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB8A21F856F; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:41:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Secretariat To: IETF Announcement List Subject: IETF 84 - Registration: Early Bird Cut-off 20 July 2012 X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.30p3 Message-ID: <20120717214158.17412.3657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:41:58 -0700 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, irsg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:41:59 -0000 84th IETF Meeting Vancouver, BC, Canada July 29-August 3, 2012 Host: Google Meeting venue: Hyatt Regency Vancouver http://Vancouver.hyatt.com Register online at: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/84/ 1. 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From yaakov_s@rad.com Wed Jul 18 00:06:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413F011E8145 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 00:06:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4LOVFm6NmJyP for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 00:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rad.co.il (mailrelay02.rad.co.il [62.0.23.237]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA6611E80B7 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 00:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Internal Mail-Server by MailRelay02 (envelope-from yaakov?s@rad.com) with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 18 Jul 2012 09:31:23 +0300 Received: from EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il ([192.114.24.28]) by EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il ([192.114.24.28]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.004; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:07:34 +0300 From: Yaakov Stein To: Peter Saint-Andre , Dave Crocker Subject: RE: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Topic: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Index: AQHNYqINgK2z7HWgRUGX3gXZmtnFNJcqWi8AgAFwHICAAtaUQA== Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 07:07:34 +0000 Message-ID: <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9302@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> References: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.115.243.62] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Commtouch-Refid: str=0001.0A090205.500660B7.009A,ss=1,fgs=0 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 07:06:56 -0000 PiBUaGF0IHNlZW1zIHNlbnNpYmxlLiBJIGxpa2UgdGhlIGZvY3VzIG9uICJkaXJlY3QsIHBlcnNv bmFsIGtub3dsZWRnZSI7DQo+IFRpbSBQb2xrIGFuZCBJIGVtcGhhc2l6ZWQgdGhhdCBhcyB3ZWxs IGluIG91ciBJLUQgb24gIlByb21vdGluZw0KPiBDb21wbGlhbmNlIHdpdGggSW50ZWxsZWN0dWFs IFByb3BlcnR5IFJpZ2h0cyAoSVBSKSBEaXNjbG9zdXJlIFJ1bGVzIjoNCg0KPiBodHRwczovL2Rh dGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC1wb2xrLWlwci1kaXNjbG9zdXJlLw0KDQoNCkhv d2V2ZXIsIHRoaXMgaXMgTk9UIHRoZSB3b3JkaW5nIGluIFJGQyAzOTc5LiANClRoZXJlIHRoZSBl eHByZXNzaW9uIGlzICJyZWFzb25hYmx5IGFuZCBwZXJzb25hbGx5IGtub3duIg0KYW5kIHRoZSBl eHBsYW5hdGlvbiBpcyBxdWl0ZSBwcmVjaXNlIDoNCiAgICAgICJSZWFzb25hYmx5IGFuZCBwZXJz b25hbGx5IGtub3duIjogbWVhbnMgc29tZXRoaW5nIGFuIGluZGl2aWR1YWwNCiAgICAgIGtub3dz IHBlcnNvbmFsbHkgb3IsIGJlY2F1c2Ugb2YgdGhlIGpvYiB0aGUgaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBob2xkcywN CiAgICAgIHdvdWxkIHJlYXNvbmFibHkgYmUgZXhwZWN0ZWQgdG8ga25vdy4NCg0KU28sIHdoaWxl IGEgZnVsbCBwYXRlbnQgc2VhcmNoIGlzIGNlcnRhaW5seSBub3QgcmVxdWlyZWQsDQp0aGUgc2lt cGxlIHN0ZXBzIHRoYXQgYSByZWFzb25hYmxlIHBlcnNvbiB3b3VsZCB0YWtlLCANCnN1Y2ggYXMg dGFsa2luZyB3aXRoIGNvLXdvcmtlcnMgYW5kIGNoZWNraW5nIGJhY2sgZW1haWxzIHRvIGpvZyBo aXMvaGVyIG1lbW9yeSwNCkFSRSByZXF1aXJlZCBiZWZvcmUgc2F5aW5nICJJIGRvbid0IGtub3cg b2YgYW55IElQUiIuDQoNClkoSilTDQoNCg== From ietf-secretariat@ietf.org Wed Jul 18 13:19:07 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A359311E8197; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:19:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.956 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.956 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.357, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R5-mgDtEcjWF; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A0F11E814A; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:19:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Secretariat To: IETF Announcement List Subject: IETF 84: Early Bird Registration Cut-off 20 July 2012 X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.30p3 Message-ID: <20120718201907.9788.62732.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:19:07 -0700 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, 84all@ietf.org, irsg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:19:07 -0000 84th IETF Meeting Vancouver, BC, Canada July 29-August 3, 2012 Host: Google Meeting venue: Hyatt Regency Vancouver http://Vancouver.hyatt.com Register online at: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/84/ Registration A. **Early-Bird Registration - USD 650.00 Pay by Friday, 20 July 2012 1700 = PT (UTC -7)** B. After Early-Bird cutoff - USD 800.00 C. Full-time Student Registrations - USD 150.00 (with proper ID) D. One Day Pass Registration - USD 350.00 E. Registration Cancellation Cut-off for registration cancellation is Monday, 23 July 2012 at 1700 PT (= UTC -7). Cancellations are subject to a 10% (ten percent) cancellation fee = if requested by that date and time. F. Online Registration and Payment ends Friday, 27 July 2012, 1700 local Va= ncouver time. G. On-site Registration starting Sunday, 29 July 2012 at 1100 local Vancouv= er time. From jmpolk@cisco.com Wed Jul 18 13:53:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A77911E80A6 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:53:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.095, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30F9T6qa83Sf for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A6711E8087 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:53:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; l=1169; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1342644883; x=1343854483; h=message-id:date:to:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to: references:mime-version; bh=HxXAvsSOmv4sGlizqUvw0Cw2gm0rXvhvZXml5x5h510=; b=YOFcQuIp+Shjb99h/GQb7VaoE+P27GbYJvhZ+UAxjoMrcqLRCVHKdrUj YBs1qtHagn6pS33bGLcxa1ASbDwkj/9skQ+6cVY8kRnqIXFC5h1SdZv64 6lCXP4jAdVWK0uC3w66yUF4vSZXfdRJ5tveJvyypok9yIvsJV+gncqstr w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAFghB1CrRDoJ/2dsb2JhbABFuTWBB4IgAQEBBBIBJQI/EAcEGB4QGT4GATSHagydeaAlBItAGgaGcAOITZsagWaCfYE5CA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,611,1336348800"; d="scan'208";a="49216352" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Jul 2012 20:54:43 +0000 Received: from jmpolk-WS.cisco.com (rcdn-jmpolk-8714.cisco.com [10.99.80.21]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6IKsg4G024607; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:54:43 GMT Message-Id: <201207182054.q6IKsg4G024607@mtv-core-4.cisco.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 15:54:44 -0500 To: Yaakov Stein , Peter Saint-Andre , Dave Crocker From: James Polk Subject: RE: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup In-Reply-To: <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9302@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co. il> References: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9302@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:53:53 -0000 At 02:07 AM 7/18/2012, Yaakov Stein wrote: > > That seems sensible. I like the focus on "direct, personal knowledge"; > > Tim Polk and I emphasized that as well in our I-D on "Promoting > > Compliance with Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) Disclosure Rules": > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-polk-ipr-disclosure/ > > >However, this is NOT the wording in RFC 3979. >There the expression is "reasonably and personally known" >and the explanation is quite precise : > "Reasonably and personally known": means something an individual > knows personally or, because of the job the individual holds, > would reasonably be expected to know. > >So, while a full patent search is certainly not required, >the simple steps that a reasonable person would take, >such as talking with co-workers and checking back emails to jog >his/her memory, I have 12GB of email - having had the same mail program since 1994, am I expected to examine my whole storage of email before answering this part of the question each time? This is not reasonable IMO. James >ARE required before saying "I don't know of any IPR". > >Y(J)S From fred@cisco.com Wed Jul 18 15:04:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46EA811E8087 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 15:04:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q5EUjdVJiXb2 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 15:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4084F11E8157 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 15:04:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; l=1847; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1342649122; x=1343858722; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=h7aXp4EosnE18CnKk6VSw++RaJCPElsKoiVtz7MVlBA=; b=eX2V860bNTKLNzpryZq+DSLI0Ltu0lox7lZu8eUM5rN4L7eDJlBM2WhP vIDgMNPh74S42mA5R2GsIVq+/eWBJikytM4HdO/wI7bByQbxZgzfiCgqH ecQLtAeL8WGEqvgi484p2fC8Vlw7wcxG97KG2ApRDtIDO+QQglFtA/hFm g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EACEyB1CtJV2c/2dsb2JhbABFuTqBB4IgAQEBAwESASc/EAIBCDYQMiUCBA4nh2UGC517oB8Ei0CGMGADlUSOI4Fmgl8 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,611,1336348800"; d="scan'208";a="103199196" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Jul 2012 22:05:22 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6IM5MdP002135 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Jul 2012 22:05:22 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([169.254.9.118]) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com ([173.37.183.79]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.004; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:05:21 -0500 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: Yaakov Stein Subject: Re: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Topic: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Index: AQHNYqILZPDLDova1kyKdjKFf9tDmZcq4EsAgAFwHICAAqYoAIAA+tSA Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 22:05:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9302@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> In-Reply-To: <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9302@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.32.244.221] x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-10.2.0.1135-7.000.1014-19050.000 x-tm-as-result: No--22.860700-8.000000-31 x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: No x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <0BD4E859EE056B47837AFF4C3777C1EB@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 22:04:32 -0000 On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:07 AM, Yaakov Stein wrote: >> That seems sensible. I like the focus on "direct, personal knowledge"; >> Tim Polk and I emphasized that as well in our I-D on "Promoting >> Compliance with Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) Disclosure Rules": >=20 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-polk-ipr-disclosure/ >=20 >=20 > However, this is NOT the wording in RFC 3979.=20 > There the expression is "reasonably and personally known" > and the explanation is quite precise : > "Reasonably and personally known": means something an individual > knows personally or, because of the job the individual holds, > would reasonably be expected to know. >=20 > So, while a full patent search is certainly not required, > the simple steps that a reasonable person would take,=20 > such as talking with co-workers and checking back emails to jog his/her m= emory, > ARE required before saying "I don't know of any IPR". I guess the question I have is what is "reasonable". If I'm a patent troll,= it is *entirely* reasonable for me to believe that you should know about m= y IPR. The place I wouldn't want this to take us is that someone in a long = black robe has to figure out how to answer it. I like David Black's approach. I did something similar recently, telling th= e authors of a given draft that I was going to say "yes", and that if they = thought otherwise they needed to do something to correct the situation. I d= on't recall whether they were Cisco authors; if they were, I would expect t= hat they either said "I don't know of anything" or went to a certain web pa= ge and filled it out (which they were supposed to do when filing the -00 dr= aft), and perhaps mentioned the draft on a certain internal malling list. W= hat happens after that is out of their control.= From yaakov_s@rad.com Wed Jul 18 21:59:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ABCA21F8552 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 21:59:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.505 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.505 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dC-NUG1-sVDX for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 21:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rad.co.il (mailrelay02.rad.co.il [62.0.23.237]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2C621F8548 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 21:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Internal Mail-Server by MailRelay02 (envelope-from yaakov?s@rad.com) with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 19 Jul 2012 07:23:49 +0300 Received: from EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il ([192.114.24.28]) by EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il ([192.114.24.28]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.004; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 08:00:14 +0300 From: Yaakov Stein To: James Polk , Peter Saint-Andre , Dave Crocker Subject: RE: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Topic: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Index: AQHNZSeOgK2z7HWgRUGX3gXZmtnFNJcwC1vw Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 05:00:13 +0000 Message-ID: <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9A20@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> References: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9302@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> <201207182054.q6IKsg4G024607@mtv-core-4.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <201207182054.q6IKsg4G024607@mtv-core-4.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.17.141.36] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Commtouch-Refid: str=0001.0A090205.5007945F.006B,ss=1,fgs=0 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 04:59:32 -0000 > I have 12GB of email - having had the same mail program since 1994,=20 > am I expected to examine my whole storage of email before answering=20 > this part of the question each time? This is not reasonable IMO. James If you have no way of finding anything in your 12GB of back mails, then I suggest deleting them. They are just taking up disk space. However, I expect that you have some way of searching through them. So do a search for "foo" or "oof", spending a few minutes before answering. Y(J)S From iad@ietf.org Thu Jul 19 11:59:22 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A419C21F871D; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:59:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uw2CBjRHUNTL; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A450A21F8715; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:59:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Administrative Director To: IETF Announcement List Subject: Agenda Tool RFP Deadline Extended X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.30p3 Message-ID: <20120719185921.19473.27600.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:59:21 -0700 Cc: iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:59:23 -0000 On 25 May 2012 the IETF Administrative Oversight Committee (IAOC), on beha= lf of the = IETF, announced a Request for Proposals for an IETF Meeting Agenda Scheduli= ng Tool. = Proposals were due 9 July 2012. Today the IAOC announces the deadline for the submission of proposals is ex= tended until 31 = August 2012. Proposals must be received via email at agenda-tool@ietf-bids= .org no later = than 31 August. = The agenda tool will manage all meeting scheduling and space allocation ass= ociated with = interim meetings, Large Interim Meetings and regular IETF meetings. This in= cludes = working group sessions, leadership meetings, EDU sessions, BoFs, office hou= rs, registration, = breaks, and more. Bidders may propose customization of an existing product(s), and/or develop= ment of the = solution. The RFP can be found at: http://iaoc.ietf.org/rfpsrfis.html = All questions/inquiries must be submitted in writing and must be received n= o later than 10 = August 2012. Responses to questions and inquiries shall be posted online a= t: http:// iaoc.ietf.org/rfpsrfis.html by 17 August. = The point of contact regarding this RFP is the IETF Administrative Director= , Ray Pelletier, = iad@ietf.org. Ray Pelletier From jmpolk@cisco.com Thu Jul 19 13:49:00 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED1221F8435 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 13:49:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nZ8P9fy3d8Sg for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 13:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FE2211E808A for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 13:48:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; l=2242; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1342730993; x=1343940593; h=message-id:date:to:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to: references:mime-version; bh=hZexzasHocE2BF+kt3Zxs7G8ZW5HrsBsnruqg22vbEg=; b=P8ZdvZ0lg94ty/z1YlekLpA/ifaFnwtR7NavFqNwXxBZD0LHh9xpYU5P UE9rO1CndfrHuiE8kux2W3f+okHYRNZMRQxdx3NzcjaDHPjPv3Gy8yRTl iN6gWr15Sma5n1cVbvUF+a3pp0iCzt5k/DDJiHKFUzAGqiKTYpAt/LfCC Y=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,617,1336348800"; d="scan'208";a="52359660" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Jul 2012 20:49:53 +0000 Received: from jmpolk-WS.cisco.com (rcdn-jmpolk-8714.cisco.com [10.99.80.21]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6JKnq5l028739; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:49:53 GMT Message-Id: <201207192049.q6JKnq5l028739@mtv-core-1.cisco.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 15:49:51 -0500 To: Yaakov Stein , James Polk , Peter Saint-Andre , Dave Crocker From: James Polk Subject: RE: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup In-Reply-To: <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9A20@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co. il> References: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9302@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> <201207182054.q6IKsg4G024607@mtv-core-4.cisco.com> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9A20@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:49:00 -0000 At 12:00 AM 7/19/2012, Yaakov Stein wrote: > > I have 12GB of email - having had the same mail program since 1994, > > am I expected to examine my whole storage of email before answering > > this part of the question each time? This is not reasonable IMO. > >James > >If you have no way of finding anything in your 12GB of back mails, >then I suggest deleting them. They are just taking up disk space. > >However, I expect that you have some way of searching through them. >So do a search for "foo" or "oof", spending a few minutes before answering. Imagine if I wrote a draft that went to the IESG about SIP or RSVP or Geopriv (i.e., geolocation) or SDP or DiffServ or DHCP or ECRIT (i.e., emergency calling), just how easy would any one of those searches be through my email database of 12GB to "know", and "not guess", whether there was any IPR discussion related to any one of those topics that I knew about? I have authored standards track or BCP RFCs on each of these topics listed here. I'd have to _review_ every single time the word or initialism/acronym appeared in those 12GB to accurately state whether or not I knew *at one time* about IPR. And you think this will only take a few minutes? We're not talking about a simple search to see if the word/acronym/initialism appears - we're talking about understanding the context it was used in, wherever it appears in any and every single email it appears in. Who's kidding who here? And this doesn't include all the Cisco internal discussions and documentation involving each of these topics that do not involve IPR, since we do have products in each technology mentioned here. Now, perhaps if my email database had a Google style search engine capability, it wouldn't take as long, but it doesn't, and it is not reasonable for me to have to move to a mail program that has such a capability just to satisfy this Question 7 (if there even is a mail program with that king of search capability). and I don't delete any non-spam emails, ever, and I shouldn't have to either, especially to make searches to satisfy Question 7 easier. I can only tell you what I remember, and that's reasonable. James >Y(J)S From warren@kumari.net Thu Jul 19 18:08:07 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD7711E80CF for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:08:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWW6RoqjEkcB for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vimes.kumari.net (vimes.kumari.net [198.186.192.250]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF5311E80CE for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.26.33.237] (unknown [72.14.228.1]) by vimes.kumari.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41A751B413EF; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 21:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Warren Kumari In-Reply-To: <20120716104928.GA96149@mail.yitter.info> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 21:08:57 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9BE989D6-2C06-47C4-9C69-8E49150090F4@kumari.net> References: <20120716104928.GA96149@mail.yitter.info> To: Andrew Sullivan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 01:08:07 -0000 On Jul 16, 2012, at 6:49 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 11:53:43AM -0400, Barry Leiba wrote: >=20 >>> (7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR >>> disclosures required for full conformance with the provisions of BCP = 78 >>> and BCP 79 have already been filed. If not, explain why. >=20 >> note that BCP 79 specifically requires disclosure only for IPR that >> the contributor personally knows about. >=20 > Even though BCP 79 requires that, the question is (perhaps > unfortunately) not worded that way. The question asks whether each > author has "confirmed" that "any and all appropriate =85 disclosures" > have been made. Given BCP 78's section 5.1, I'm not surprised that > our asking people to be sure about this is causing them to talk to > their legal departments. >=20 > But more importantly, why shouldn't the question cause people to ask > their legal departments? Maybe it should, but expect the throughput to drop significantly=85 I am a co-author on a draft -- the WG chair sent Q7 to all authors, = asking them to ACK on May 21st.=20 One of the authors wanted to check with his / her legal group[0] -- of = course, no engineer likes talking to legal, so he / she delayed for a = few weeks, then went to poke them. Legal (moving at their standard = glacial pace) finally replied saying "No IPR" on July 12th=85 I am not sure if this is a feature or a bug, but at the very least, it = is an anecdote :-P W [0]: Normally he / she doesn't, but the wording of Q7 makes makes it = seem like maybe you should... > I seem to recall a recent event in which > there turned out to be IPR and someone claimed to be naive or foolish > or whatever. Isn't the point of this question to cause people to be > unable to claim ignorance when they "ought to have known"? >=20 > Best, >=20 > A >=20 > --=20 > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com >=20 --=20 There are only 10 types of people in this world -- those who understand = binary arithmetic and those who don't. From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Thu Jul 19 19:11:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC76811E80C7 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:11:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.314 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.314 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.474, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X1cq2yUg6Qx3 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEBC11E80BE for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5665B8A031 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 02:12:33 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 22:12:31 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Message-ID: <20120720021231.GE2952@crankycanuck.ca> References: <20120716104928.GA96149@mail.yitter.info> <9BE989D6-2C06-47C4-9C69-8E49150090F4@kumari.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <9BE989D6-2C06-47C4-9C69-8E49150090F4@kumari.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 02:11:40 -0000 On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 09:08:57PM -0400, Warren Kumari wrote: > > Maybe it should, but expect the throughput to drop significantly… Of course. When the decision about making double-double-sure that people really had read the boilerplate they were submitting happened, I sort of figured that people were making this trade off. If you thought you already understood what you'd submitted (as every single person I have asked this question of said they already had, why am I bothering them again, and so on), then your natural reaction to this new "are you sure?" question is to kick it to a higher authority, which in the case of legal questions is the legal department. I was and remain of the position that Q7 is an instantiation of the principle, "Hard cases make bad law." The old version of that approximate question was better. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From yaakov_s@rad.com Thu Jul 19 23:22:10 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C38621F85A7 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 23:22:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GChS-ihTD9lz for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 23:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rad.co.il (mailrelay01.rad.co.il [62.0.23.252]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958C721F85A2 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2012 23:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Internal Mail-Server by MailRelay01 (envelope-from yaakov?s@rad.com) with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 20 Jul 2012 09:02:11 +0300 Received: from EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il ([192.114.24.28]) by EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il ([192.114.24.28]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.004; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:22:58 +0300 From: Yaakov Stein To: James Polk , Peter Saint-Andre , Dave Crocker Subject: RE: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Topic: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Index: AQHNZfAKgK2z7HWgRUGX3gXZmtnFNJcxsAEQ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 06:22:58 +0000 Message-ID: <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC90451A66F@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> References: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9302@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> <201207182054.q6IKsg4G024607@mtv-core-4.cisco.com> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9A20@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> <201207192049.q6JKnq5l028739@mtv-core-1.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <201207192049.q6JKnq5l028739@mtv-core-1.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [207.232.33.112] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Commtouch-Refid: str=0001.0A090209.5008F943.005F,ss=1,fgs=0 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 06:22:10 -0000 > I can only tell you what I remember, and that's reasonable. In the interest of expediting disclosures, we seem to have forgotten why we have the disclosure process at all. It is for those participating in the process: We need working groups to be able to make informed decisions before standardizing a mechanism that may have a heavy tax on it. Perhaps we can't find everything (e.g., what recently happened in CODEC) but we need to expend a reasonable effort. It is for the good of the organizations who send people to SDOs: YOU may not be able to find anything in your email file, but as part of a deposition process the lawyers will get that file and they WILL find that you were informed at some point of some IPR (they have experts at going through Gigabytes of data)=20 and they CAN have that IPR ruled unenforceable and may further instigate investigations of your company by anti-trust or competition law enforcement= agencies. I fully understand your not wanting to waste time on searching. But there were two recent cases here at the IETF where active participants forgot to disclose patents on which they were listed as inventors. I completely believe them that they forgot about these patents, but a quick search would have saved them the embarrassment=20 and would have saved the IETF second LCs. Y(J)S From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Fri Jul 20 03:02:46 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CDD321F859B for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.77 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.77 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.521, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lRrcwF+2ZLra for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail3.alcatel.fr (smail3.alcatel.fr [62.23.212.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B1B21F8599 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.62]) by smail3.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id q6KA1J08016865 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:03:27 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.44]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB02.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.62]) with mapi; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:02:54 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: Yaakov Stein , James Polk , Peter Saint-Andre , Dave Crocker Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:02:52 +0200 Subject: RE: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Topic: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Thread-Index: AQHNZfAKgK2z7HWgRUGX3gXZmtnFNJcxsAEQgAA/qjA= Message-ID: References: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9302@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> <201207182054.q6IKsg4G024607@mtv-core-4.cisco.com> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9A20@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> <201207192049.q6JKnq5l028739@mtv-core-1.cisco.com> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC90451A66F@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> In-Reply-To: <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC90451A66F@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.69 on 155.132.188.83 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:02:46 -0000 I'd also point out that providing the answer to all the questions in the pu= blication request is not something that suddenly introduces a set of rules = at publication request time. Rather it is making sure the appropriate discu= ssion or declaration has occurred at some point. If you are editor or author of a document, you should have been asking your= self the IPR question from the very point you created a word to the documen= t, or entered into an IETF discussion about it. So this hardly becomes some= thing you go and ask your lawyers about at publication request time. Further if you do have an IPR declaration to make at publication request ti= me, the WG should then be taking time out to ask themselves the question of= whether the solution is the correct technical solution in the face of that= IPR declaration, so you have just delayed the IETF process by at least a m= onth. It is like leaving the NIT analysis or the evaluation of normative versus i= nformative references to that point. Either of those could lead to a comple= te rewrite of the document so you need to do those before WGLC. Surely working out your IPR position is what the Note Well is all about, am= ong other things. Regards Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Yaakov Stein > Sent: 20 July 2012 07:23 > To: James Polk; Peter Saint-Andre; Dave Crocker > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; Barry Leiba > Subject: RE: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup >=20 > > I can only tell you what I remember, and that's reasonable. >=20 > In the interest of expediting disclosures, > we seem to have forgotten why we have the disclosure process at all. >=20 > It is for those participating in the process: > We need working groups to be able to make informed decisions > before standardizing a mechanism that may have a heavy tax on it. > Perhaps we can't find everything (e.g., what recently happened in CODEC) > but we need to expend a reasonable effort. >=20 > It is for the good of the organizations who send people to SDOs: > YOU may not be able to find anything in your email file, > but as part of a deposition process the lawyers will get that file > and they WILL find that you were informed at some point of some IPR > (they have experts at going through Gigabytes of data) > and they CAN have that IPR ruled unenforceable and may further instigate > investigations of your company by anti-trust or competition law > enforcement agencies. >=20 > I fully understand your not wanting to waste time on searching. > But there were two recent cases here at the IETF where active participant= s > forgot to disclose patents on which they were listed as inventors. > I completely believe them that they forgot about these patents, > but a quick search would have saved them the embarrassment > and would have saved the IETF second LCs. >=20 > Y(J)S From ietf-secretariat@ietf.org Fri Jul 20 03:41:31 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F9E21F8599; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:41:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.867 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.867 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.268, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6pWl0t-NdslU; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE27821F8575; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:41:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Secretariat To: IETF Announcement List Subject: IETF 84 - Early Bird and Cancellation Cutoff Dates X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.30p3 Message-ID: <20120720104130.30504.49110.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 03:41:30 -0700 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, 84all@ietf.org, irsg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:41:32 -0000 84th IETF Meeting Vancouver, BC, Canada July 29-August 3, 2012 Host: Google Meeting venue: Hyatt Regency Vancouver http://Vancouver.hyatt.com Register online at: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/84/ Registration A. **Early-Bird Registration - USD 650.00 Pay by Friday, 20 July 2012 1700 = PT (UTC -7)** B. After Early-Bird cutoff - USD 800.00 C. Full-time Student Registrations - USD 150.00 (with proper ID) D. One Day Pass Registration - USD 350.00 E. **Registration Cancellation Cut-off for registration cancellation is Monday, 23 July 2012 at 1700 PT (U= TC -7). Cancellations are subject to a 10% (ten percent) cancellation fee i= f requested by that date and time.** F. Online Registration and Payment ends Friday, 27 July 2012, 1700 local Va= ncouver time. G. On-site Registration starting Sunday, 29 July 2012 at 1100 local Vancouv= er time. Only 9 days until the Vancouver IETF! From iad@ietf.org Fri Jul 20 06:07:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3873621F865E; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 06:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vGG1xjJsI3jP; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 06:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB38D21F8643; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 06:07:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Administrative Director To: IETF Announcement List Subject: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.30p3 Message-ID: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 06:07:33 -0700 Cc: iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:07:34 -0000 The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed policy by the IAOC to = impose = fees to produce information and authenticate documents in response to subpo= enas and = other legal requests. The IETF receives requests for information, documentation, authentication o= r other = matters through subpoenas and less formal means that require manpower and m= aterials = to be expended. These requests are on the rise. During the period 2005 to = 2010 the IETF = responded to nine subpoenas. Since 2011 the IETF has received five subpoen= as and three = other legal requests for authenticated documents. = Each such request is time sensitive and involves the IETF Counsel, the IAD,= and members = of the IAOC, who together form the Legal Management Committee, to rapidly a= nalyze and = identify the means for satisfying the request. Often there is a need to re= tain outside counsel, = especially in cases that might lead to depositions or court testimony. = The IAOC believes a Schedule of Fees is an appropriate and reasonable means= to recover = costs associated with such efforts. The draft policy entitled Draft Fee Policy for Legal Requests can be found = at: Before adopting a policy the IAOC would like feedback on this before making= a = decision. Comments appreciated to ietf@ietf.org by 6 August 2012. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director From yaojk@cnnic.cn Fri Jul 20 06:22:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BAA221F867D for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 06:22:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.285 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.285 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.313, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FLW7IGM3xE+r for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 06:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cnnic.cn (smtp.cnnic.cn [159.226.7.146]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CAFB21F8681 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 06:22:23 -0700 (PDT) X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown127.0.0.1 (HELO computer) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 21:23:13 +0800 Message-ID: <006801cd667a$d10b89d0$c801a8c0@computer> From: "Jiankang Yao" To: "IETF Administrative Director" , "IETF Announcement List" References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 21:23:12 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 Cc: iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:22:27 -0000 I have taken a look at this policy. but still not very clear about this policy. could you kindly show some examples for charging the fee? Jiankang Yao ----- Original Message ----- From: "IETF Administrative Director" To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: ; ; ; Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 9:07 PM Subject: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed policy by the IAOC to impose fees to produce information and authenticate documents in response to subpoenas and other legal requests. The IETF receives requests for information, documentation, authentication or other matters through subpoenas and less formal means that require manpower and materials to be expended. These requests are on the rise. During the period 2005 to 2010 the IETF responded to nine subpoenas. Since 2011 the IETF has received five subpoenas and three other legal requests for authenticated documents. Each such request is time sensitive and involves the IETF Counsel, the IAD, and members of the IAOC, who together form the Legal Management Committee, to rapidly analyze and identify the means for satisfying the request. Often there is a need to retain outside counsel, especially in cases that might lead to depositions or court testimony. The IAOC believes a Schedule of Fees is an appropriate and reasonable means to recover costs associated with such efforts. The draft policy entitled Draft Fee Policy for Legal Requests can be found at: Before adopting a policy the IAOC would like feedback on this before making a decision. Comments appreciated to ietf@ietf.org by 6 August 2012. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director From warren@kumari.net Fri Jul 20 07:04:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12BA921F8621; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:04:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KTFdvYYaM308; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vimes.kumari.net (vimes.kumari.net [198.186.192.250]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EBEE21F85A3; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.12] (unknown [64.13.52.115]) by vimes.kumari.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BEB411B402E4; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Warren Kumari In-Reply-To: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:05:33 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: IETF Administrative Director X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, IETF Announcement List X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:04:40 -0000 On Jul 20, 2012, at 9:07 AM, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed policy by the = IAOC to impose=20 > fees to produce information and authenticate documents in response to = subpoenas and=20 > other legal requests. >=20 > The IETF receives requests for information, documentation, = authentication or other=20 > matters through subpoenas and less formal means that require manpower = and materials=20 > to be expended. These requests are on the rise. During the period = 2005 to 2010 the IETF=20 > responded to nine subpoenas. Since 2011 the IETF has received five = subpoenas and three=20 > other legal requests for authenticated documents. =20 >=20 > Each such request is time sensitive and involves the IETF Counsel, the = IAD, and members=20 > of the IAOC, who together form the Legal Management Committee, to = rapidly analyze and=20 > identify the means for satisfying the request. Often there is a need = to retain outside counsel,=20 > especially in cases that might lead to depositions or court testimony.=20= >=20 > The IAOC believes a Schedule of Fees is an appropriate and reasonable = means to recover=20 > costs associated with such efforts. >=20 > The draft policy entitled Draft Fee Policy for Legal Requests can be = found=20 > at: >=20 > Before adopting a policy the IAOC would like feedback on this before = making a=20 > decision. Comments appreciated to ietf@ietf.org by 6 August 2012. >=20 > Ray Pelletier > IETF Administrative Director >=20 LGTM++. Seems like a grand idea -- who knows, may even help avoid nuisance suits = (although the fees are so small (compared to all the other costs) that I = don't hold much hope of this=85). W -- For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and = wrong. -- H. L. Mencken From rbarnes@bbn.com Fri Jul 20 07:07:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1929C21F862F; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:07:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.592 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.592 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sjkiUZJNPuzT; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.0.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D6521F862B; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ros-dhcp192-1-51-20.bbn.com ([192.1.51.20]:65431) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SsDsr-000JqX-E6; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:08:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: "Richard L. Barnes" In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:08:43 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Warren Kumari X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, IETF Announcement List X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:07:54 -0000 +1 Although I wonder whether radical openness would be cheaper in the long = run: Put everything online and have an auto-responder at = subpoena@ietf.org that says "Go look it up yourself." --Richard On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Warren Kumari wrote: >=20 > On Jul 20, 2012, at 9:07 AM, IETF Administrative Director wrote: >=20 >> The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed policy by the = IAOC to impose=20 >> fees to produce information and authenticate documents in response to = subpoenas and=20 >> other legal requests. >>=20 >> The IETF receives requests for information, documentation, = authentication or other=20 >> matters through subpoenas and less formal means that require manpower = and materials=20 >> to be expended. These requests are on the rise. During the period = 2005 to 2010 the IETF=20 >> responded to nine subpoenas. Since 2011 the IETF has received five = subpoenas and three=20 >> other legal requests for authenticated documents. =20 >>=20 >> Each such request is time sensitive and involves the IETF Counsel, = the IAD, and members=20 >> of the IAOC, who together form the Legal Management Committee, to = rapidly analyze and=20 >> identify the means for satisfying the request. Often there is a need = to retain outside counsel,=20 >> especially in cases that might lead to depositions or court = testimony.=20 >>=20 >> The IAOC believes a Schedule of Fees is an appropriate and reasonable = means to recover=20 >> costs associated with such efforts. >>=20 >> The draft policy entitled Draft Fee Policy for Legal Requests can be = found=20 >> at: >>=20 >> Before adopting a policy the IAOC would like feedback on this before = making a=20 >> decision. Comments appreciated to ietf@ietf.org by 6 August 2012. >>=20 >> Ray Pelletier >> IETF Administrative Director >>=20 >=20 >=20 > LGTM++. >=20 > Seems like a grand idea -- who knows, may even help avoid nuisance = suits (although the fees are so small (compared to all the other costs) = that I don't hold much hope of this=85). >=20 > W >=20 > -- > For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, = and wrong. > -- H. L. Mencken >=20 >=20 >=20 From sob@harvard.edu Fri Jul 20 07:16:15 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C88221F8682; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:16:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TWOUOoCiaa-L; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ackroyd.harvard.edu (ackroyd.harvard.edu [128.103.208.29]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04AA21F8672; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.university.harvard.edu (entwedge0000000.university.harvard.edu [10.35.2.151]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ackroyd.harvard.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E032EE8F93; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ENTWHUBT0000007.university.harvard.edu (192.168.236.27) by ENTWEDGE0000000.university.harvard.edu (10.35.2.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:16:31 -0400 Received: from ENTWEXMB0000008.university.harvard.edu ([169.254.1.84]) by ENTWHUBT0000007.university.harvard.edu ([192.168.236.29]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:17:09 -0400 From: "Bradner, Scott" To: Scott Brim Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Thread-Topic: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Thread-Index: AQHNZoJYmCUNzXWKXEamw9YDfsScmw== Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:17:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [140.247.60.212] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "iaoc@ietf.org" , "iab@iab.org" , IETF Announcement List X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:16:16 -0000 great idea - just does not jive with the legal system which often need auth= enticated=20 copies of documents Scott On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:14 AM, Scott Brim wrote: > > On Jul 20, 2012, at 9:07 AM, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > >> The draft policy entitled Draft Fee Policy for Legal Requests can be f= ound > >> at: >=20 > Fine idea.=20 From scott.brim@gmail.com Fri Jul 20 07:13:42 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686F021F8681; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:13:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pTyxW+7Y3lzX; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com (mail-pb0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43AD121F864B; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pbcwy7 with SMTP id wy7so6471590pbc.31 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:14:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=FlEJgWCzhVDBxNmXFhly4LbID15IR3dQxh1C2/Wh910=; b=R6BkLQ1paXkGI38nILY6KD7cW96qRiUJOyxjjljXwwJnQa2rj4wX3sPVIVGDB48xm6 ynntQjtzV3SkSCP8TG8Q5WyqEMjvwAj9H8CZq0VxPPL+yiHjFC2z0HT9aKLmNNfds8fw GRbutttOr3biGC0OfhSGd1uDXpePX9vGO7D8SHsmyULUR1Qw683kndms4z48jrlm4q8q 6wbxV4zWPGTsRVhE2TuF633o3bl6nrw76huuR2P1YBJQ3vyEsPgkiSbmU9MuaK/f+3SE EbfIs2/d8DKny73HgiFvgSeTqubvPPCvwDJtaz423eVsRZwBZ61dtbyOB1S5fRUDX3jk MdBQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.129.168 with SMTP id nx8mr14076758pbb.112.1342793674128; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.220.132 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:14:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:14:34 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy From: Scott Brim To: "Richard L. Barnes" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10cb6ff3fe1504c54383ba X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:21:33 -0700 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "iaoc@ietf.org" , "iab@iab.org" , IETF Announcement List X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:13:43 -0000 --047d7b10cb6ff3fe1504c54383ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > On Jul 20, 2012, at 9:07 AM, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > >> The draft policy entitled Draft Fee Policy for Legal Requests can be > found > >> at: > Fine idea. --047d7b10cb6ff3fe1504c54383ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> On Jul 20, 2012, at 9:07 AM, IETF Admin= istrative Director wrote:
>> The draft policy entitled Draft Fee P= olicy for Legal Requests can be found
>> at: <http://iaoc.ietf.org/policyandprocedures.html>
=

Fine idea.=A0
--047d7b10cb6ff3fe1504c54383ba-- From rbarnes@bbn.com Fri Jul 20 07:24:22 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5460021F865D; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:24:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OHSbDcNzi8F8; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.1.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D73B21F8659; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ros-dhcp192-1-51-20.bbn.com ([192.1.51.20]:65533) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SsE8f-000Caa-Qa; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:25:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: "Richard L. Barnes" In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:25:03 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1657B5B7-4680-4E32-991F-10BC70A84347@bbn.com> References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> To: "Bradner, Scott" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, Scott Brim , ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:24:22 -0000 [assuming you mean the "go look it up" idea] We have the technology. Surely a CMS signed object (or even just an = HTTPS download) would provide adequate authentication that it came from = the IETF. And it doesn't seem like we would have a problem providing = authenticated documents to the world. On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Bradner, Scott wrote: > great idea - just does not jive with the legal system which often need = authenticated=20 > copies of documents >=20 > Scott >=20 > On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:14 AM, Scott Brim wrote: >=20 >>> On Jul 20, 2012, at 9:07 AM, IETF Administrative Director wrote: >>>> The draft policy entitled Draft Fee Policy for Legal Requests can = be found >>>> at: >>=20 >> Fine idea.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Fri Jul 20 07:27:13 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7DEC21F8625; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:27:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.744 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.744 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.505, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3e6THmzY9tQ3; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB30D21F8608; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.63]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id q6KERscc017507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:27:55 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.44]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB03.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.63]) with mapi; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:27:54 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "Richard L. Barnes" , "Bradner, Scott" Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:27:54 +0200 Subject: RE: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Thread-Topic: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Thread-Index: Ac1mg5dvioxOXU28T0WsJOfvTEhayAAACVAg Message-ID: References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> <1657B5B7-4680-4E32-991F-10BC70A84347@bbn.com> In-Reply-To: <1657B5B7-4680-4E32-991F-10BC70A84347@bbn.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.69 on 155.132.188.80 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , "iab@iab.org" , Scott Brim , "ietf@ietf.org" , "iaoc@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:27:14 -0000 Except that there is a cost of taking all the existing paper archives and m= aking them available in such a manner. How many thousand pages are out ther= e? Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Richard L. Barnes > Sent: 20 July 2012 15:25 > To: Bradner, Scott > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; iab@iab.org; Scott Brim; ietf@ietf.org; > iaoc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy >=20 > [assuming you mean the "go look it up" idea] >=20 > We have the technology. Surely a CMS signed object (or even just an HTTP= S > download) would provide adequate authentication that it came from the IET= F. > And it doesn't seem like we would have a problem providing authenticated > documents to the world. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Bradner, Scott wrote: >=20 > > great idea - just does not jive with the legal system which often need > authenticated > > copies of documents > > > > Scott > > > > On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:14 AM, Scott Brim wrote: > > > >>> On Jul 20, 2012, at 9:07 AM, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > >>>> The draft policy entitled Draft Fee Policy for Legal Requests can be > found > >>>> at: > >> > >> Fine idea. > > > > > > From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Fri Jul 20 07:38:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B639A21F852B; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:38:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.359, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iWxGcbbQHEeJ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f178.google.com (mail-wi0-f178.google.com [209.85.212.178]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213AE21F852C; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibhr14 with SMTP id hr14so494104wib.13 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:39:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=X+RCIWgVBQZ0JYybN+L+nVe3mMc5nQbFMckE14DPA38=; b=uKagygbVWNSD9Bm2xyPAKCWIVw5m8vfMmI8KKr1Ni5MjdeYEnwyX2xoQeOvjtXWh5B 9acU7fADFo2TadoT0E78u8o23iHMtHsnPdj+Q4H0x6T7fWwql5yiRhQn1pPGohjRlbMz Sb7oNVyyuvskuyWRlut81K6MsZPMNQiAEQ5BzdAnGPSWlR5ECZikrvsx94/uOn1zdtaU LLgMMadRRbQXNFXn76oSbxGQMsonP8n3vw5jOGsvecP/SHUC2lpK76lj/EoRqXMF6N20 GRVPzDD/cZ2Hk89tsHpjf0/t6gzLuPFJoWflq6dCIsxgaeUN6eYmWQHnCB2reyDk0uet KuIA== Received: by 10.180.14.8 with SMTP id l8mr15095605wic.6.1342795162556; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-102-218-72.as13285.net. [2.102.218.72]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e43sm14960795eep.4.2012.07.20.07.39.20 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <50096DA3.6080800@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 15:39:31 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF Administrative Director Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, IETF discussion list , wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:38:29 -0000 On 20/07/2012 14:07, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed policy by the IAOC to impose > fees to produce information and authenticate documents in response to subpoenas and > other legal requests. Do it. This will dissuade trivial requests and will be a drop in the ocean of costs for serious lawsuits. Don't forget to appropriately update http://iaoc.ietf.org/subpoena.html. Brian From john-ietf@jck.com Fri Jul 20 08:44:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 031F921F8565 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:44:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uRUFrP6r3avA for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E63A21F855D for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SsFId-000I0a-EC; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:39:27 -0400 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:44:50 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Barry Leiba , wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup Message-ID: <49FF64DDDC0C20ACAE47E86F@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 15:44:19 -0000 Barry, I notice with interest that, despite the relatively long thread your remark spawned, neither you nor any other IESG member have commented further. I have to deal with this for four document today, so want to suggest two principles that have not been mentioned in the thread: (i) It is generally a bad idea for non-lawyers to interpret text with legal meaning and implications to others. IMO, it is especially bad if those interpretations are made on behalf of the IETF. I shouldn't be doing it as a WG Chair and the IESG shouldn't be doing it either. (ii) In general, the IESG has no authority to impose restrictions on the process for reviewing and approving documents unless those restrictions represent community consensus (normally after Last Call, etc.) Combining those two, I think it is entirely reasonable for the IESG to require that, as document shepherd, I remind authors and editors that, by submitting documents, they have already agreed that they are in compliance with BCP 79. I think it is reasonable for me to ask that they affirm that, if anything has changed or come to their attention that requires a statement or update to have them in conformance with BCP 79, they affirm that they have done that or are in the process of doing that. And I think is is reasonable for the IESG to ask that I verify that I've done that. If more is needed beyond that, the pointers in the Note Well, and the boilerplate language in the I-Ds, I think we need to open up BCP 79 and clarify it, not, however unintentionally, apply new interpretations or restrictions via a document writeup. john --On Sunday, July 15, 2012 11:53 -0400 Barry Leiba wrote: > In case my other message about the document shepherd writeup in > general[1] is too long, and anyone should choose not to read > it, I want to extract the comment about question 7. Question > 7 is this: > >> (7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR >> disclosures required for full conformance with the provisions >> of BCP 78 and BCP 79 have already been filed. If not, explain >> why. > > Here's what I said about that in the other message: >... From dhc@dcrocker.net Fri Jul 20 08:55:46 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24FC021F8637; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:55:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2dKRuH09QZAc; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3884921F862F; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.82.26] (64.125.189.90.t00817-23.above.net [64.125.189.90] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6KFuaBN013392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:56:37 -0700 Message-ID: <50097FAE.9060805@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:56:30 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard L. Barnes" Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> <1657B5B7-4680-4E32-991F-10BC70A84347@bbn.com> In-Reply-To: <1657B5B7-4680-4E32-991F-10BC70A84347@bbn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 15:55:46 -0000 On 7/20/2012 7:25 AM, Richard L. Barnes wrote: > We have the technology. Surely a CMS signed object (or even just an HTTPS download) would provide adequate authentication that it came from the IETF. And it doesn't seem like we would have a problem providing authenticated documents to the world. Do you know that these are acceptable to most/all courts? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From iad@ietf.org Fri Jul 20 09:06:26 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1E621F85A4; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:06:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I0NF9I37cy6P; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5429521F857D; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:06:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Administrative Director To: IETF Announcement List Subject: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.30p3 Message-ID: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:06:24 -0700 Cc: iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:06:27 -0000 The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed date change for IETF 95 scheduled for March 2016. Currently IETF 95 is scheduled for 27 March to 1 April 2016. 27 March is E= aster. The IAOC is proposing IETF 95 be rescheduled for 20 - 25 March 2016 and wou= ld like = feedback on those dates before making a decision. Comments appreciated to = ietf@ietf.org = by 6 August 2012. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director From joelja@bogus.com Fri Jul 20 09:35:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D9321F84C9; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:35:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.224, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s91qL9eIDar2; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9F721F855E; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (host-64-47-153-50.masergy.com [64.47.153.50]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q6KGaNSI048081 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:36:24 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <50098901.7090009@bogus.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:36:17 -0700 From: Joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF Administrative Director Subject: Re: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change References: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:36:24 +0000 (UTC) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, IETF Announcement List X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:35:28 -0000 On 7/20/12 09:06 , IETF Administrative Director wrote: > The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed date change for IETF 95 > scheduled for March 2016. > > Currently IETF 95 is scheduled for 27 March to 1 April 2016. 27 March is Easter. > > The IAOC is proposing IETF 95 be rescheduled for 20 - 25 March 2016 and would like > feedback on those dates before making a decision. Comments appreciated to ietf@ietf.org > by 6 August 2012. 20 march is palm sunday on the western calender. If one's a conflict presumably the other is too... > Ray Pelletier > IETF Administrative Director > From rbarnes@bbn.com Fri Jul 20 09:39:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F1221F858E; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:39:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bok80T1bdDRa; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.1.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1740121F8555; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ros-dhcp192-1-51-20.bbn.com ([192.1.51.20]:50094) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SsGFu-000E81-5l; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:40:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: "Richard L. Barnes" In-Reply-To: <50097FAE.9060805@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:40:39 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> <1657B5B7-4680-4E32-991F-10BC70A84347@bbn.com> <50097FAE.9060805@dcrocker.net> To: dcrocker@bbiw.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:39:56 -0000 On Jul 20, 2012, at 11:56 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 7/20/2012 7:25 AM, Richard L. Barnes wrote: >> We have the technology. Surely a CMS signed object (or even just an = HTTPS download) would provide adequate authentication that it came from = the IETF. And it doesn't seem like we would have a problem providing = authenticated documents to the world. >=20 >=20 > Do you know that these are acceptable to most/all courts? >=20 > d/ IANAL, so no. But what else are we going to provide that's better? --Richard From johnl@iecc.com Fri Jul 20 09:51:50 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F40B21F85DF for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:51:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.141 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.141 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6BkSYIZ6wNNB for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D8921F85D5 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6300 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2012 16:52:45 -0000 Received: from leila.iecc.com (64.57.183.34) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 20 Jul 2012 16:52:45 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:vbr-info; s=50098cdd.xn--btvx9d.k1207; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=1fOWACJYtRp4dMBxF500YZqn9wiPLv7vwPVMXcHn4CU=; b=ao2Ww4cDcmQYhnW6jz3+P+T3TbGcyC0m+3SLzEYVIMqU8vBUleKBsrJofUWUVs59kppUSRQWzJGHJLjQjnaamVSaJCaFSqE9CekrLG0+xHR9+Ttmk9iOtpUF883Ly2S4U0InWLzB10lQziy5nSboIi0d3SjLQabcU/3Z7535moQ= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:vbr-info; s=50098cdd.xn--btvx9d.k1207; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=1fOWACJYtRp4dMBxF500YZqn9wiPLv7vwPVMXcHn4CU=; b=nxNaIImLUpvZ7dJYq15rsQiucKyLPGKgc65KZWQYyC78B+4Mx3vGmO2PN77AP5+xfF3YjOaCXTNItWkXkTCRAQE3qIyoyqrqmgYpLp07HNLY41Kas0wh53Jpmrzx3SwapaFWmWx0UO3uDm82IgWT9T/R/IX/R/OY5k5O6mhvTkY= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Date: 20 Jul 2012 16:52:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20120720165223.8315.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:51:50 -0000 >>> We have the technology. Surely a CMS signed object (or even just an HTTPS >download) would provide adequate authentication that it came from the IETF. >And it doesn't seem like we would have a problem providing authenticated >documents to the world. >> >> Do you know that these are acceptable to most/all courts? > >IANAL, so no. But what else are we going to provide that's better? Technically, nothing. But that's not how courts work. When they want an authenticated document, they want one that is authenticated by a person. A blob of text with a bunch of crypto signatures would need a technical expert to tell the court why the crypto means the document is authentic. Keep in mind that RFCs and I-Ds are used in lawsuits all the time (speaking from personal experience here) and in most cases, both sides accept that the copy of the document is OK and that's that. In the few cases that show up at the IETF, it means that someone in the case is being pissy, and they don't want a streamlined process. R's, John PS: I still think we should set an hourly rate for research, to deter subpoenas for "all mail from A about B" and so forth. From rbarnes@bbn.com Fri Jul 20 10:22:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE4821F850F for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:22:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k3ImhIogEdO9 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.1.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18EB421F850B for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ros-dhcp192-1-51-20.bbn.com ([192.1.51.20]:50289) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SsGvf-000EZO-L5; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:23:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Richard L. Barnes" In-Reply-To: <20120720165223.8315.qmail@joyce.lan> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:23:49 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2C405097-9223-4F53-9482-BC794731AEC9@bbn.com> References: <20120720165223.8315.qmail@joyce.lan> To: "John Levine" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:22:57 -0000 On Jul 20, 2012, at 12:52 PM, John Levine wrote: >>>> We have the technology. Surely a CMS signed object (or even just = an HTTPS >> download) would provide adequate authentication that it came from the = IETF.=20 >> And it doesn't seem like we would have a problem providing = authenticated >> documents to the world. >>>=20 >>> Do you know that these are acceptable to most/all courts? >>=20 >> IANAL, so no. But what else are we going to provide that's better? >=20 > Technically, nothing. But that's not how courts work. When they want > an authenticated document, they want one that is authenticated by a > person. A blob of text with a bunch of crypto signatures would need a > technical expert to tell the court why the crypto means the document > is authentic. For the US, at least:=20 = From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Fri Jul 20 10:40:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4BE021F8637; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:40:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3fsITZxTy4KS; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5F621F85D3; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F74C39E800B; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:41:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RvY5FXTbaaeR; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs-211-24.cs.ucla.edu (Cs-211-24.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.211.24]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A950739E8008; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Lixia Zhang In-Reply-To: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:41:43 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: IETF Administrative Director X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, IETF Announcement List X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:40:48 -0000 On Jul 20, 2012, at 9:06 AM, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed date change for = IETF 95 > scheduled for March 2016. >=20 > Currently IETF 95 is scheduled for 27 March to 1 April 2016. 27 March = is Easter. >=20 > The IAOC is proposing IETF 95 be rescheduled for 20 - 25 March 2016 = and would like=20 > feedback on those dates before making a decision. Comments = appreciated to ietf@ietf.org=20 > by 6 August 2012. >=20 > Ray Pelletier > IETF Administrative Director 2016 is far away but UCLA has calendars that far out ;) The new dates (20 - 25 March 2016) are much better, that is our spring = break week. Our spring 2016 teaching starts Monday 3/28/2016 (for all UC campuses = except Berkeley, and perhaps other schools running quarter system), = making it almost impossible to travel. Lixia=20= From bob.hinden@gmail.com Fri Jul 20 10:52:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCA5011E8088; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:52:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.514 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.514 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ubcpFc-QzQft; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f170.google.com (mail-wi0-f170.google.com [209.85.212.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BF721F867E; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12so773276wib.1 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=ut51MmnumkpjnvZvjWl9gV7t+OGEOB429NijOlkApnc=; b=Nd2OqG11XDP1AbbaejJYRcnKgiGm/0vN77teyt4IYFzp++sT7FKbx7wY5/Ox8mPaCN HqzjuYz7VRGt2J+35p4WJ1cmf90xdwePJxkNVXlhB8vlXeMng0T4iYOaCEJaFUGHQZHx 4wqyA1F60ZOaw6ruGMi5Xitu4W/oUTNXiK1wglPPvPBP7mqlcGnQrBOaeZA9lQdSYqQ/ UBQlcHJW/BkrrIctohxENWCJjIDMZTTkSQB+HPHnDln+m6wMv+btWNYRu0ACwAPcqxR1 6uWuXnIf+hiPm9Ss5iVFR/gr4JK5Cu5SMdd08gESQddyPy8uJ38HphDV20q6QLGUSswN GXrw== Received: by 10.216.255.68 with SMTP id i46mr740877wes.35.1342806812449; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:9:4080:10:21e:c2ff:febb:8dfb? ([2601:9:4080:10:21e:c2ff:febb:8dfb]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g46sm16142186eep.15.2012.07.20.10.53.30 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [IAOC] Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Bob Hinden In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:53:27 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> <1657B5B7-4680-4E32-991F-10BC70A84347@bbn.com> <50097FAE.9060805@dcrocker.net> To: Richard L. Barnes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:52:37 -0000 Richard, On Jul 20, 2012, at 9:40 AM, Richard L. Barnes wrote: >=20 > On Jul 20, 2012, at 11:56 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: >=20 >> On 7/20/2012 7:25 AM, Richard L. Barnes wrote: >>> We have the technology. Surely a CMS signed object (or even just an = HTTPS download) would provide adequate authentication that it came from = the IETF. And it doesn't seem like we would have a problem providing = authenticated documents to the world. >>=20 >>=20 >> Do you know that these are acceptable to most/all courts? >>=20 >> d/ >=20 >=20 > IANAL, so no. But what else are we going to provide that's better? >=20 We are doing things like signing internet-drafts and RFCs to make this = possible, but it will be a long while before the courts catch up. They = are not exactly early adopters of things like this :-) Bob From john-ietf@jck.com Fri Jul 20 11:07:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6D821F854B for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.578 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.578 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mUHIEEgEMUxM for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A435321F853E for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SsHXQ-000IwB-QY; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:02:52 -0400 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:08:15 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: John Levine , wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy Message-ID: <02D8627B01F054119A1BC081@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <20120720165223.8315.qmail@joyce.lan> References: <20120720165223.8315.qmail@joyce.lan> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 18:07:34 -0000 --On Friday, July 20, 2012 16:52 +0000 John Levine wrote: > Keep in mind that RFCs and I-Ds are used in lawsuits all the > time (speaking from personal experience here) and in most > cases, both sides accept that the copy of the document is OK > and that's that. In the few cases that show up at the IETF, > it means that someone in the case is being pissy, and they > don't want a streamlined process. > > R's, > John > > PS: I still think we should set an hourly rate for research, > to deter subpoenas for "all mail from A about B" and so forth. FWIW, +1 to both of these comments. If I recall, John's first version of the research comment was "all mail from A about B during month M". If someone is trying to use the document process to be difficult, "all mail from A about B within a three-year period" is as, or more, likely and could involve serious time. Where possible, I'd rather see us reject such requests than return documents (even if we have to tell them where the associates can go to learn how to work the archives or hire a consultant to do the search). If that isn't possible, we shouldn't incur uncompensated costs. john From johnl@taugh.com Fri Jul 20 11:12:41 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC4F11E8097 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:12:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hidiCJyv5cKO for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CA3611E8093 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20232 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2012 18:13:27 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=4f07.50099fc7.k1207; bh=I0aLRzyfl1wNqu6xx8PtbjOXRoM2tpMApcd2JFLL/K0=; b=Kh4c+p6Vz4MNS1K2ddz7lr2ptzMnFlTLfzjcGHqMyQ8L+grioshPFArt8MeH42JllDEPNxeLR+vx7rxcV2AZ58D0/xEWbikd/+/szAkjqWEK/cZM+3KUQXgLiG7WsGsLHe1oUiwQTkz2B5ow9+CWiJWOBGxnWMWvhuTIo/X5OVE= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=4f07.50099fc7.k1207; bh=I0aLRzyfl1wNqu6xx8PtbjOXRoM2tpMApcd2JFLL/K0=; b=JnRnAgvi5KU5ozSqJTGn0R2VlQEFk4wsVgvsxVloMSQHWOzJ68PeiG7MpUL2JsGq6EJURnYRyn7KaLGhvfFR2Hb83TiEAlsrQ8Ew4gaebIaGmdtmNJU2YbIGWsedho3dKIgs8G5hLbWLyGVASFReYKWZLoqPNU6RqcBBafSY/7s= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1); 20 Jul 2012 18:13:05 -0000 Date: 20 Jul 2012 14:13:27 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Richard L. Barnes" Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy In-Reply-To: <2C405097-9223-4F53-9482-BC794731AEC9@bbn.com> References: <20120720165223.8315.qmail@joyce.lan> <2C405097-9223-4F53-9482-BC794731AEC9@bbn.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 18:12:41 -0000 >> Technically, nothing. But that's not how courts work. When they want >> an authenticated document, they want one that is authenticated by a >> person. A blob of text with a bunch of crypto signatures would need a >> technical expert to tell the court why the crypto means the document >> is authentic. > > For the US, at least: > That's about contracts, not authenticated documents. An RFC may be many things, but it's not a contract. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY "I dropped the toothpaste", said Tom, crestfallenly. From sarikaya2012@gmail.com Fri Jul 20 11:36:21 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DEFA11E807F; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:36:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8XCUT0C+XyzX; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com (mail-yx0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E69411E8073; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yenq13 with SMTP id q13so4706354yen.31 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:37:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=+aF9cE5YH5i/p4BHx7UlDylYuiswVa6Vwxpra1b69D8=; b=xT5yiB4MIrRwCpl1z/Rh7VEzEz/dxmUz7daKI/iw7JHFz2znP0hVjlXbpeTGLImBzW OsEfHQ5qujpVRMPpugXDeHSppHvqHgUGmSvj1epfHdVjClOp7iygSChZguXrCb5WmVey QiKkDpGQvvDgLMhRy3Np2nSRAWHSDb9pgSpp7vvaHpBW7nppsmMXb8n3Jjpsadw61ECH Ysht2Uq5F7AUaqlMdxdMmHy9Mi21Z2vYLJMkK93j+Ma3mlC95SRtlktBsNqFXr2p2qmK ofC3sN0cy9o9MPntjtbkthMSRyeUsAeb66KKPDRXAcbiqHxQME9SXpP2WpzafegGHCJl H8ZQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.6.229 with SMTP id e5mr5319566iga.9.1342809436421; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.207.167 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:37:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:37:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change From: Behcet Sarikaya To: IETF Administrative Director Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, IETF Announcement List X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 18:36:21 -0000 I don't understand why this issue is coming up. Maybe you don't know, IETF 84 falls in the month of Ramadan for Muslims and nobody asked to change it? My 2 cents. Behcet On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 11:06 AM, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed date change for IETF 95 > scheduled for March 2016. > > Currently IETF 95 is scheduled for 27 March to 1 April 2016. 27 March is Easter. > > The IAOC is proposing IETF 95 be rescheduled for 20 - 25 March 2016 and would like > feedback on those dates before making a decision. Comments appreciated to ietf@ietf.org > by 6 August 2012. > > Ray Pelletier > IETF Administrative Director From leifj@nordu.net Fri Jul 20 08:32:25 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D26121F85E1; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:32:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 51DMdRQ4Xoyy; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from backup-server.nordu.net (backup-server.nordu.net [IPv6:2001:948:4:1::66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F87321F849C; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kerio.nordu.net (kerio.nordu.net [109.105.110.42]) by backup-server.nordu.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6KFXCrV007081 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:33:15 +0200 (CEST) VBR-Info: md=nordu.net; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org,swamid.se DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nordu.net; s=default; t=1342798398; bh=1iPcAh11llZAy1xl8gtasG3ntcLP+/iUYB0Q/L9FMd0=; h=From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Message-Id: Date:To:Mime-Version; b=qok6xI4qgzngbHqULaeONst6GIFIz3OATMu6eRPXlItk9E0mCUq6G84/JFdJGtAzd aPA5UQsNrWkYdTh3VGHGdTmMgx0miM1iGgp59PxQlQ+RFzg0UK/71U0vtWHioMZXKt h0hqBm6Jx+NFjsayFF/JAdNhEmC1QD94YWpO4MFU= X-Footer: bm9yZHUubmV0 Received: from [2.68.154.170] ([2.68.154.170]) by kerio.nordu.net; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:33:10 +0200 From: "Leif Johansson" Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 In-Reply-To: <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> Message-Id: <5DC517E1-12ED-4DCD-B1F1-8B67157727AA@nordu.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:33:01 +0200 To: "Richard L. Barnes" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:53:18 -0700 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "iaoc@ietf.org" , "iab@iab.org" , IETF Announcement List X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 15:32:25 -0000 DQoNCjIwIGp1bCAyMDEyIGtsLiAxNjowOSBza3JldiAiUmljaGFyZCBMLiBCYXJuZXMiIDxyYmFy bmVzQGJibi5jb20+Og0KDQo+ICsxDQo+IA0KPiBBbHRob3VnaCBJIHdvbmRlciB3aGV0aGVyIHJh ZGljYWwgb3Blbm5lc3Mgd291bGQgYmUgY2hlYXBlciBpbiB0aGUgbG9uZyBydW46IFB1dCBldmVy eXRoaW5nIG9ubGluZSBhbmQgaGF2ZSBhbiBhdXRvLXJlc3BvbmRlciBhdCBzdWJwb2VuYUBpZXRm Lm9yZyB0aGF0IHNheXMgIkdvIGxvb2sgaXQgdXAgeW91cnNlbGYuIg0KPiANCg0KSSBjb3VsZCB0 aGluayBvZiBzb21lIG90aGVyIHRoaW5ncyBpdCBjb3VsZCBzYXkgdG9vLi4uDQoNCj4gLS1SaWNo YXJkDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IE9uIEp1bCAyMCwgMjAxMiwgYXQgMTA6MDUgQU0sIFdhcnJlbiBL dW1hcmkgd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPj4gDQo+PiBPbiBKdWwgMjAsIDIwMTIsIGF0IDk6MDcgQU0sIElF VEYgQWRtaW5pc3RyYXRpdmUgRGlyZWN0b3Igd3JvdGU6DQo+PiANCj4+PiBUaGUgSUFPQyBpcyBz ZWVraW5nIGNvbW11bml0eSBmZWVkYmFjayBvbiBhIHByb3Bvc2VkIHBvbGljeSBieSB0aGUgSUFP QyB0byBpbXBvc2UgDQo+Pj4gZmVlcyB0byBwcm9kdWNlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGFuZCBhdXRoZW50 aWNhdGUgZG9jdW1lbnRzIGluIHJlc3BvbnNlIHRvIHN1YnBvZW5hcyBhbmQgDQo+Pj4gb3RoZXIg bGVnYWwgcmVxdWVzdHMuDQo+Pj4gDQo+Pj4gVGhlIElFVEYgcmVjZWl2ZXMgcmVxdWVzdHMgZm9y IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uLCBkb2N1bWVudGF0aW9uLCBhdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBvciBvdGhlciANCj4+ PiBtYXR0ZXJzIHRocm91Z2ggc3VicG9lbmFzIGFuZCBsZXNzIGZvcm1hbCBtZWFucyB0aGF0IHJl cXVpcmUgbWFucG93ZXIgYW5kIG1hdGVyaWFscyANCj4+PiB0byBiZSBleHBlbmRlZC4gIFRoZXNl IHJlcXVlc3RzIGFyZSBvbiB0aGUgcmlzZS4gRHVyaW5nIHRoZSBwZXJpb2QgMjAwNSB0byAyMDEw IHRoZSBJRVRGIA0KPj4+IHJlc3BvbmRlZCB0byBuaW5lIHN1YnBvZW5hcy4gIFNpbmNlIDIwMTEg dGhlIElFVEYgaGFzIHJlY2VpdmVkIGZpdmUgc3VicG9lbmFzIGFuZCB0aHJlZSANCj4+PiBvdGhl ciBsZWdhbCByZXF1ZXN0cyBmb3IgYXV0aGVudGljYXRlZCBkb2N1bWVudHMuICANCj4+PiANCj4+ PiBFYWNoIHN1Y2ggcmVxdWVzdCBpcyB0aW1lIHNlbnNpdGl2ZSBhbmQgaW52b2x2ZXMgdGhlIElF VEYgQ291bnNlbCwgdGhlIElBRCwgYW5kIG1lbWJlcnMgDQo+Pj4gb2YgdGhlIElBT0MsIHdobyB0 b2dldGhlciBmb3JtIHRoZSBMZWdhbCBNYW5hZ2VtZW50IENvbW1pdHRlZSwgdG8gcmFwaWRseSBh bmFseXplIGFuZCANCj4+PiBpZGVudGlmeSB0aGUgbWVhbnMgZm9yIHNhdGlzZnlpbmcgdGhlIHJl cXVlc3QuICBPZnRlbiB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIG5lZWQgdG8gcmV0YWluIG91dHNpZGUgY291bnNlbCwg DQo+Pj4gZXNwZWNpYWxseSBpbiBjYXNlcyB0aGF0IG1pZ2h0IGxlYWQgdG8gZGVwb3NpdGlvbnMg b3IgY291cnQgdGVzdGltb255LiANCj4+PiANCj4+PiBUaGUgSUFPQyBiZWxpZXZlcyBhIFNjaGVk dWxlIG9mIEZlZXMgaXMgYW4gYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgYW5kIHJlYXNvbmFibGUgbWVhbnMgdG8gcmVj b3ZlciANCj4+PiBjb3N0cyBhc3NvY2lhdGVkIHdpdGggc3VjaCBlZmZvcnRzLg0KPj4+IA0KPj4+ IFRoZSBkcmFmdCBwb2xpY3kgZW50aXRsZWQgRHJhZnQgRmVlIFBvbGljeSBmb3IgTGVnYWwgUmVx dWVzdHMgY2FuIGJlIGZvdW5kIA0KPj4+IGF0OiA8aHR0cDovL2lhb2MuaWV0Zi5vcmcvcG9saWN5 YW5kcHJvY2VkdXJlcy5odG1sPg0KPj4+IA0KPj4+IEJlZm9yZSBhZG9wdGluZyBhIHBvbGljeSB0 aGUgSUFPQyB3b3VsZCBsaWtlIGZlZWRiYWNrIG9uIHRoaXMgYmVmb3JlIG1ha2luZyBhIA0KPj4+ IGRlY2lzaW9uLiAgQ29tbWVudHMgYXBwcmVjaWF0ZWQgdG8gaWV0ZkBpZXRmLm9yZyBieSA2IEF1 Z3VzdCAyMDEyLg0KPj4+IA0KPj4+IFJheSBQZWxsZXRpZXINCj4+PiBJRVRGIEFkbWluaXN0cmF0 aXZlIERpcmVjdG9yDQo+Pj4gDQo+PiANCj4+IA0KPj4gTEdUTSsrLg0KPj4gDQo+PiBTZWVtcyBs aWtlIGEgZ3JhbmQgaWRlYSAtLSB3aG8ga25vd3MsIG1heSBldmVuIGhlbHAgYXZvaWQgbnVpc2Fu Y2Ugc3VpdHMgKGFsdGhvdWdoIHRoZSBmZWVzIGFyZSBzbyBzbWFsbCAoY29tcGFyZWQgdG8gYWxs IHRoZSBvdGhlciBjb3N0cykgdGhhdCBJIGRvbid0IGhvbGQgbXVjaCBob3BlIG9mIHRoaXPigKYp Lg0KPj4gDQo+PiBXDQo+PiANCj4+IC0tDQo+PiBGb3IgZXZlcnkgY29tcGxleCBwcm9ibGVtLCB0 aGVyZSBpcyBhIHNvbHV0aW9uIHRoYXQgaXMgc2ltcGxlLCBuZWF0LCBhbmQgd3JvbmcuDQo+PiAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0tIEguIEwuIE1lbmNrZW4NCj4+IA0KPj4gDQo+PiANCj4gDQo= From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Fri Jul 20 11:44:31 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB62211E80BD; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:44:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MQAPLxRdTfDo; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bk0-f44.google.com (mail-bk0-f44.google.com [209.85.214.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E049711E807F; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bkty7 with SMTP id y7so3511183bkt.31 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:45:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ycytE1loYRuQpsYgQfER3x77rLrWpg2/ub7uEB52t/I=; b=XCZrLQFDnUPE4jDqL1rVfVr3nZlDWrFwsQCpld4z++iMgJG0Qt/RDekbNM0Q+aUYYT 5YCC4wuCgWyj3x9nPIU8jSL6ob5uHHWAG+xydriiJ9UlnoYOF+pPfXWymCvTE5G6d2x6 o2EjdveZDb0Fb+cMhl+x6fZjt5olpc9brgGMWXULy0uMFnm4+fUw42olgYJYutXSnHWl 1JIO7R1YxMtR6ebpZdSGplAcvYC8eXSK7Kv8sFOSRY7UQdphtQzNbQvF9PwWKTLsTvmH fGU+dqSklCSeAIWONJQSARYMi5Yt9xKs1gaNu6za6XJrxcSuAnlhgMA22Gf5dbEG1DQF zMVw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.152.136 with SMTP id g8mr3571991bkw.44.1342809925649; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.205.119.137 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:45:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <006801cd667a$d10b89d0$c801a8c0@computer> References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <006801cd667a$d10b89d0$c801a8c0@computer> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:45:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [IAOC] Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy From: Marshall Eubanks To: Jiankang Yao Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:53:19 -0700 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, IETF Announcement List X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 18:44:32 -0000 On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Jiankang Yao wrote: > > > I have taken a look at this policy. but still not very clear about this > policy. > > could you kindly show some examples for charging the fee? > > I looked at this before the policy was created. Many internet companies do this. Yahoo : http://cryptome.org/isp-spy/yahoo-spy.pdf =95 Basic subscriber records: approx. $20 for the first ID, $10 per ID ther= eafter =95 Basic Group Information (including information about moderators): approx. $20 for a group with a single moderator =95 Contents of subscriber accounts, including email: approx. $30-$40 per user =95 Contents of Groups: approx. $40 - $80 per group Verizon : http://www.verizon.net/policies/civil_subpoena.asp Verizon Online charges the following rates for compliance with civil subpoenas and other legal process. For subpoenas and other legal process that require substantial effort by Verizon Online, Verizon Online reserves the right to charge a rate of $75 per hour (plus overtime costs if necessary) and to collect an estimated fee in advance. Except as set forth in the preceding sentence, Verizon Online's subpoena compliance fees and charges are as follows: $40.00 per IP record requested (unless overtime charges apply) $22.00 per Federal Express or actual shipping charges if higher $0.25 cents per copy Sprint http://info.publicintelligence.net/SprintSubpoenaManual.pdf Lots of different fees. Minimum $50.00 administrative processing fee for Civil requests. AT&T https://contact.bellsouth.com/subpoena/ Fees for Subpoena Processing: AT&T charges a fee for the processing of civil subpoenas. I do not think that the fees suggested here are at all out of line with either the actual burden or with what other organizations do. Regards Marshall > > Jiankang Yao > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "IETF Administrative Director" > > To: "IETF Announcement List" > Cc: ; ; ; > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 9:07 PM > Subject: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy > > > > The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed policy by the IAOC t= o > impose > fees to produce information and authenticate documents in response to > subpoenas and > other legal requests. > > The IETF receives requests for information, documentation, authentication= or > other > matters through subpoenas and less formal means that require manpower and > materials > to be expended. These requests are on the rise. During the period 2005 t= o > 2010 the IETF > responded to nine subpoenas. Since 2011 the IETF has received five > subpoenas and three > other legal requests for authenticated documents. > > Each such request is time sensitive and involves the IETF Counsel, the IA= D, > and members > of the IAOC, who together form the Legal Management Committee, to rapidly > analyze and > identify the means for satisfying the request. Often there is a need to > retain outside counsel, > especially in cases that might lead to depositions or court testimony. > > The IAOC believes a Schedule of Fees is an appropriate and reasonable mea= ns > to recover > costs associated with such efforts. > > The draft policy entitled Draft Fee Policy for Legal Requests can be foun= d > at: > > Before adopting a policy the IAOC would like feedback on this before maki= ng > a > decision. Comments appreciated to ietf@ietf.org by 6 August 2012. > > Ray Pelletier > IETF Administrative Director > From jmpolk@cisco.com Fri Jul 20 12:39:41 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1B611E807F for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:39:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5wrVmV7RcX0v for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-2.cisco.com (mtv-iport-2.cisco.com [173.36.130.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA61F21F84F3 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:39:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; l=5672; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1342813237; x=1344022837; h=message-id:date:to:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to: references:mime-version; bh=8EuZhJfMHxMy6PYt/idtyoWYwnazFaoUD1S9BPjx+ms=; b=LoldJLcRrWZ6y/3GBh33zr5Xy7IRW3o9bPaSh8tA+QUpv1RAqQSik0Dx NZL6hyJFETPdmOeFgKITpfDlgm8EdeRlxO/sAOKL8rkoF8QHh8u8KBb0Q njpnyrAtLnRE/iefL3EAwFWoEqTMGDud00bzxaD9qCAs7RP4FF1uZRx0/ Q=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,625,1336348800"; d="scan'208";a="52539130" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by mtv-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Jul 2012 19:40:37 +0000 Received: from jmpolk-WS.cisco.com (rcdn-jmpolk-8714.cisco.com [10.99.80.21]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6KJeamH023618; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:40:36 GMT Message-Id: <201207201940.q6KJeamH023618@mtv-core-3.cisco.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:40:33 -0500 To: Yaakov Stein , James Polk , Peter Saint-Andre , Dave Crocker From: James Polk Subject: RE: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup In-Reply-To: <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC90451A66F@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co. il> References: <5002F30A.5070905@bbiw.net> <500427D5.4000006@stpeter.im> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9302@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> <201207182054.q6IKsg4G024607@mtv-core-4.cisco.com> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC9044E9A20@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> <201207192049.q6JKnq5l028739@mtv-core-1.cisco.com> <07F7D7DED63154409F13298786A2ADC90451A66F@EXRAD5.ad.rad.co.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:39:41 -0000 At 01:22 AM 7/20/2012, Yaakov Stein wrote: > > I can only tell you what I remember, and that's reasonable. > >In the interest of expediting disclosures, >we seem to have forgotten why we have the disclosure process at all. I think some may be underestimating what's reasonable for one or some might not be reasonable for some others. >It is for those participating in the process: >We need working groups to be able to make informed decisions >before standardizing a mechanism that may have a heavy tax on it. And if I am the author of an ID and I don't have direct knowledge of all the claims within Cisco's patents (counted in the thousands) and patent submissions (several times the number of patents), how's the WG to make that informed decision? Before anyone goes off on the finite concept of "we're only talking about what I am aware of", that conflicts with the "are you sure?" question that's been brought up several times on this thread alone. I can tell you what I'm aware of. I should be held accountable for IPR that has my name on it. There's no doubt about that, and I have little sympathy for those who forget that they were aware of IPR that is still valid and don't claim to know about it. It's just the "are you sure?" question about all these emails I (and others) have where an idea might have been discussed in the 90s that I'm not a listed inventor of that someone else believes I should have remembered. That's what I have a problem with. >Perhaps we can't find everything (e.g., what recently happened in CODEC) >but we need to expend a reasonable effort. > >It is for the good of the organizations who send people to SDOs: >YOU may not be able to find anything in your email file, file? I don't use MS Outlook. I have hundreds of separate email files that each are directories or folders within my email program. Searching for a phrase means an exact pattern match, or no match. This isn't the case with my Internet search engines, so someone (me?) is going to have to go through every file searching for every instance of a single word or string and look at the context of how that word or string was used to know if it happens to approaching any IPR claim you are looking for or what a draft is discussing. >but as part of a deposition process the lawyers will get that file >and they WILL find that you were informed at some point of some IPR >(they have experts at going through Gigabytes of data) sure, the are law firms that do this, and those assigned to this task get to do this for however long it takes *because* that is their job at that moment. Mine is not writing standards, but I believe in interoperable solutions so I take the extra time to coordinate with other organizations to ensure how my company builds products will work with other products. >and they CAN have that IPR ruled unenforceable and may further instigate >investigations of your company by anti-trust or competition law >enforcement agencies. > >I fully understand your not wanting to waste time on searching. >But there were two recent cases here at the IETF where active participants >forgot to disclose patents on which they were listed as inventors. You may forgive that situation, but I currently cannot. I know everything about what I'm listed as an inventor of, therefore I find it impossible for others not to have same memory about what they are listed as inventors of. But that is not the point you are making to me, because I am fully aware of many other inventions in which I'm not listed as an inventor, and you or the IETF want to know about what I know about that IPR as well, don't you? This is the rub, because I don't have intimate knowledge about the individual claims of nearly all those other inventions, yet I know about the inventions. Is IPR considered knowing about inventions, including others' inventions? or knowing about my own inventions? That isn't covered in anything I've read yet. That's where "searching through my email" becomes a problem/hassle/pain-in-the-a$$ due to its size. >I completely believe them that they forgot about these patents, >but a quick search there's nothing quick about a search, and that's what isn't getting through. For example, if you and Dave have a technical email discussion about a new thing, and you don't do anything further with that discussion, and in fact delete the thread, are you held accountable for the information exchanged within that thread, even if it took place 5 or 10 or 15 years ago? If you say "I'm not accountable for reporting it", yet some lawyer finds that thread on Dave's computer - what kind of pickle are you in now? According to what you wrote above, let me quote "they CAN have that IPR ruled unenforceable and may further instigate investigations of your company by anti-trust or competition law enforcement agencies." So, it sounds like deleting emails is a really bad idea too... how embarrassing would that be for you? Now, I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying "a quick search" is a naive view point IMO. Having to remember every discussion you've ever had about a certain technology to the point of remembering each claim of a patent is also unreasonable. What is reasonable is "I can tell you what I remember doing or inventing", and that should involve only the ideas I've had direct input in. That's all I'm saying. James >would have saved them the embarrassment >and would have saved the IETF second LCs. > >Y(J)S From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Fri Jul 20 14:06:30 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F18811E809A for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.966 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.966 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vfVYbhl5KqnN for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com (mail-lb0-f172.google.com [209.85.217.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B23811E8088 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbgo11 with SMTP id go11so6069018lbb.31 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=yCN9j+JuTA6mBP2QL4GEhEjNcoO+cVEje1Pi/CUiVt4=; b=kdvf1iFC6J7L723GTEO/3sqxHfOWoDM5PlaDnLwnwJDtdRFc2X0F8hthlyP5PO/PBq o1aombza9jwjH6AFvgjvg+E1owdtY2Zne+V2jSwsJRaYoNOyw6jba+6xwVSPZfKlJa9f PaXuZFeggE9e95q+dbhlJsPc+7O0Gs4ydJAwcYaV4ojyLbqamm95HLI4WAfEKt9Z1TUQ DHQDHrkn/330XYyx8Mtr7lW7TUQdpYK42yiyXW2gPz5T5wLDSh91eG18WtMrpyKhYj70 TfKVZcbdZc/wBHZV1db+JpPY7E/79MqxMTBQpi+N2vK6b2tbpphjnE/Eb447yXI0KRrS jnkQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.108.144 with SMTP id hk16mr7749408lab.2.1342818445252; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.17.133 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <49FF64DDDC0C20ACAE47E86F@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> References: <49FF64DDDC0C20ACAE47E86F@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:07:25 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: WkGoAzTYMWpwYAIv7eV8mwojUx4 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Question 7 (IPR) on the document shepherd writeup From: Barry Leiba To: John C Klensin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 21:06:30 -0000 > I notice with interest that, despite the relatively long thread > your remark spawned, neither you nor any other IESG member have > commented further. I can't speak for other IESG members, but perhaps one reason they haven't commented is that I started this with a personal view, not reflecting any IESG discussion. The reason *I* haven't said anything further is that I think the conversation has been going in a reasonable direction, and I haven't had anything more to say until your message. > (ii) In general, the IESG has no authority to impose > restrictions on the process for reviewing and approving > documents unless those restrictions represent community > consensus (normally after Last Call, etc.) Absolutely correct, as I see it. And I don't believe it's been the IESG's intent to try to do anything of the sort. > Combining those two, I think it is entirely reasonable for the > IESG to require that, as document shepherd, I remind authors and > editors that, by submitting documents, they have already agreed > that they are in compliance with BCP 79. I think it is > reasonable for me to ask that they affirm that, if anything has > changed or come to their attention that requires a statement or > update to have them in conformance with BCP 79, they affirm that > they have done that or are in the process of doing that. And I > think is is reasonable for the IESG to ask that I verify that > I've done that. Yes. And that is what I believe the intent of Question 7 is. That was the full purpose of my comment about Question 7: to make the point that all it is asking is that the chairs or shepherds double-check with the authors in the manner you say above, and nothing more. I am (again, personally) in complete disagreement with Yakov's comments in this thread. I don't think there's anything in BCP 79 that *requires* anyone but the contributor, personally, to be involved in determining what the contributor "reasonably and personally" knows about. But as you say, we can debate that until penguins meet puffins, and it ultimately comes down to each individual's (or her lawyer's) interpretation of BCP 79. Barry From michawe@ifi.uio.no Sat Jul 21 13:33:17 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F86E21F84B6; Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:33:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xtc2Hdz+i-fx; Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out1.uio.no (mail-out1.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A1E21F8534; Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx5.uio.no ([129.240.10.46]) by mail-out1.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1SsgNN-0005xE-7M; Sat, 21 Jul 2012 22:34:09 +0200 Received: from 108.134.189.109.customer.cdi.no ([109.189.134.108] helo=[192.168.0.197]) by mail-mx5.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1SsgNM-0000o1-Lk; Sat, 21 Jul 2012 22:34:09 +0200 Message-Id: <73976B18-FB0C-4FF5-8942-1EC737B40298@ifi.uio.no> From: Michael Welzl To: IETF Agenda , Working Group Chairs In-Reply-To: <4FED599E.9050307@ifi.uio.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: ICCRG looking for a group to swap with - offering a long slot for a short one! Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 22:33:45 +0200 References: <20120628235937.1046.89951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FED599E.9050307@ifi.uio.no> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 3 msgs/h 1 sum rcpts/h 5 sum msgs/h 2 total rcpts 21611 max rcpts/h 58 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, FSL_RCVD_USER=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=0.001, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: 813601B0D8207EE506584A8A6A11B8E4E25AD36A X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 109.189.134.108 spam_score: -49 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 1 total 914 max/h 14 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Cc: irsg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 20:33:17 -0000 Hi all, My email below hasn't worked out - we still have that overlap. On top of that, we now have a very short agenda: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/84/agenda/iccrg/ - ICCRG's usual last-minute-rush of presentation requests didn't happen this time around. A shorter slot would therefore suffice - so, maybe ICCRG could still be swapped with a group that has a short slot but would prefer a longer one? Overlaps to avoid: tcpm tsvarea tsvwg conex mptcp rtcweb Cheers, Michael On Jun 29, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Michael Welzl wrote: > Hi, > > ICCRG overlaps with RTCWEB, which isn't good. > > Would it be possible to fix this, please? If ICCRG is the preferred > one to move around, for instance, I don't see conflicts with ICCRG > on tuesday morning, sessions 1 or 2, tuesday afternoon, session 2, > or wednesday morning. > > Cheers, > Michael > > > > On 6/29/12 1:59 AM, IETF Agenda wrote: >> The DRAFT agenda is ready for viewing. Please note the cutoff date >> for >> requests to reschedule Working Group and BoF meetings is July 2, 2012 >> 17:00 PT. The final agenda will be published on July 6, 2012. >> >> HTML version is broken and will get fixed soon. >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/84/agenda.txt >> >> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/84/index.html >> >> >> Thanks, >> Wanda >> >> Only 30 days until Vancouver, 84th IETF! >> Online registration for the IETF meeting is at: >> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/register.html > > From hallam@gmail.com Sun Jul 22 07:53:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496E621F85CC; Sun, 22 Jul 2012 07:53:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.941, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fJoRquHEZ4YU; Sun, 22 Jul 2012 07:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f172.google.com (mail-vc0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED94921F859B; Sun, 22 Jul 2012 07:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vcbfo14 with SMTP id fo14so4404971vcb.31 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2012 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=IaJ1A4lEFT4QHdDoBoWq58I5TLfm4lplc7qjRcAFtb8=; b=BQ1aIGp+0IlQMC2nPEfsCUvSsJLlKZMcrUywhtsP1HwJdjX35ai6C5iv8JDMz2Kxmi rTgcB1WqqiPYuOrw4utSu1jfT6kdytmA1nfB3dBSkQV5nLhbjfg6UlqXp8oKvPkM9+ZO 7vslKBva24DwEdXBET7GidBSi5INTBPPV/Z2wwmKPWBFASFHkW554zzDFJKqjHT+Dvlh /oMjqWkw7paKHzZJf7sXxnrylOY7Ql0+EvLTM07kX+TbNQ39lziyTFG/r4oizbOOxspX C9yXAg5/Utm+ecU7dA754UI+as7OkZSgMFJcwvUi4YDjweiy3nAlw8kj5Sq19u2N9VxO lUtw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.240.178 with SMTP id wb18mr8568739vdc.100.1342968897511; Sun, 22 Jul 2012 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.116.233 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jul 2012 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1657B5B7-4680-4E32-991F-10BC70A84347@bbn.com> References: <20120720130733.14364.19024.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <9B2F2766-DB92-4B7B-88DC-1B90FF6707B7@bbn.com> <1657B5B7-4680-4E32-991F-10BC70A84347@bbn.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 10:54:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Feedback Requested on Draft Fees Policy From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: "Richard L. Barnes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, Scott Brim X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 14:53:57 -0000 In theory yes, a signed document would be sufficient. In practice it would then require an expert witness at $400/hr to explain that it meant it was authentic. The schedule of fees seems a reasonable response to a real cost being imposed on the organization. On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Richard L. Barnes wrote: > [assuming you mean the "go look it up" idea] > > We have the technology. Surely a CMS signed object (or even just an HTTPS download) would provide adequate authentication that it came from the IETF. And it doesn't seem like we would have a problem providing authenticated documents to the world. > > > > > On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Bradner, Scott wrote: > >> great idea - just does not jive with the legal system which often need authenticated >> copies of documents >> >> Scott >> >> On Jul 20, 2012, at 10:14 AM, Scott Brim wrote: >> >>>> On Jul 20, 2012, at 9:07 AM, IETF Administrative Director wrote: >>>>> The draft policy entitled Draft Fee Policy for Legal Requests can be found >>>>> at: >>> >>> Fine idea. >> >> >> > -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Jul 23 05:31:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9A321F867D; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 05:31:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.779 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.779 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.470, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gd86wxYFhBL8; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 05:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (smail2.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86CA21F8668; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 05:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com (FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com [135.120.45.64]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (8.14.3/8.14.3/ICT) with ESMTP id q6NCT6ID017830 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 23 Jul 2012 14:31:26 +0200 Received: from FRMRSSXCHMBSC3.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.44]) by FRMRSSXCHHUB04.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.120.45.64]) with mapi; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 14:30:47 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: IETF Administrative Director , IETF Announcement List Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 14:28:45 +0200 Subject: RE: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change Thread-Topic: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change Thread-Index: Ac1mkgugs2pN3305ScqOJTSML5WOpwCMvHow Message-ID: References: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.69 on 155.132.188.80 Cc: "iaoc@ietf.org" , "iab@iab.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 12:31:37 -0000 Let's forget the religious discussion that seems to have broken out as a re= sult of this. While Easter may be a major Christian festival, I don't believe the issue i= s such (I can think of no reasons why Christians would have a doctrinal rea= son other than those that apply to any other Sunday and those obligations c= ould mostly be met at the venue rather than at home). Rather it is Easter t= he secular public holiday that happens to occur in many countries. This is the set of days when schools take an extended break, parents take s= aid children off on short holidays; cheap air tickets cease to be available= ; when you get on the plane, it is full of screaming children; local transp= ort all works to a reduced timetable; for those IETFers who end up wishing = to travel by train, they find themselves moving to busses to cater for the = engineering works which a 4 day weekend seems to encourage. So my advice would be, change the dates if it looks like you are going to h= old the meeting in a country that takes such holidays, or where a significa= nt number of people would need to transit through such a country. If so you= need to take into account at least both the Friday and Monday in some coun= tries. Keith P.S. Trying to avoid every religious and public holiday is an impossible ta= sk. Do what other organizations have done and concentrate on the impact of = such holidays on holding the meeting in any location. > -----Original Message----- > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of IETF Administrative Director > Sent: 20 July 2012 17:06 > To: IETF Announcement List > Cc: iaoc@ietf.org; iab@iab.org; ietf@ietf.org; wgchairs@ietf.org > Subject: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change >=20 > The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed date change for IETF > 95 > scheduled for March 2016. >=20 > Currently IETF 95 is scheduled for 27 March to 1 April 2016. 27 March is > Easter. >=20 > The IAOC is proposing IETF 95 be rescheduled for 20 - 25 March 2016 and > would like > feedback on those dates before making a decision. Comments appreciated t= o > ietf@ietf.org > by 6 August 2012. >=20 > Ray Pelletier > IETF Administrative Director From cabo@tzi.org Mon Jul 23 06:46:29 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 960FA21F868A; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 06:46:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.462 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.462 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.213, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KE8o0zEx7Rg2; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 06:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531C521F85F9; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 06:46:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6NDkKQY009884; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p54893609.dip.t-dialin.net [84.137.54.9]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BB0F36CC; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:46:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:46:20 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "iaoc@ietf.org" , "iab@iab.org" , IETF Announcement List X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 13:46:30 -0000 On Jul 23, 2012, at 14:28, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: > you need to take into account at least both the Friday and Monday in = some countries. +1 In much of Europe, the Easter holidays run from Good Friday to Easter = Monday, and exhibit -- strong travel activity -- zero to reduced opening times of various essential facilities -- reduced public transport schedules (*) When meeting in Europe, avoid both weeks around Easter. (Clearly, we need to have IETF95 in Bali. :-) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten (*) A bit counterintuitive -- the reason is that public transport = agencies tend to cater to their employees as opposed to their customers, = and these employees want to enjoy the holidays, too. Since everybody knows that public transport is overcrowded on these long = weekends, there isn't even any backlash. From jmpolk@cisco.com Mon Jul 23 10:04:41 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FF3411E80D7; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 10:04:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eu89dBD4mX8s; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 10:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-1.cisco.com (mtv-iport-1.cisco.com [173.36.130.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5DC11E80D5; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 10:04:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; l=2757; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1343063080; x=1344272680; h=message-id:date:to:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to: references:mime-version; bh=w4icnHtpjmaCqF+h7AbCuvKvhJaN2UjTqmA5yKRpYYU=; b=kZ0JWkcq1B9uLb5jEcfhyFOdB2xNVfkzZJV0F76JqGHpEEU2wdHC9sg1 BuJor4HgVy3OAGapMGGpMd93vdfVJAwhTfcMtS+ZwQ8zWfGTMjyCU+RLE 3bEKL48flMS4Wz2GnpYwb2YvYF7GFA5jRdx5sozBsONfbSFLA+cZJZBnT 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAJqDDVCrRDoI/2dsb2JhbABFuTmBB4IgAQEBBBIBJQI/DAQHBBEEAQEBFQkJBxktCQgGARIUDodqnSmPFpBOi00kgweCSGADiE6bIoFmgn0 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,639,1336348800"; d="scan'208";a="49667487" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by mtv-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2012 17:04:40 +0000 Received: from jmpolk-WS.cisco.com (rcdn-jmpolk-8714.cisco.com [10.99.80.21]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6NH4dtB025884; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 17:04:39 GMT Message-Id: <201207231704.q6NH4dtB025884@mtv-core-3.cisco.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 12:04:39 -0500 To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , IETF Administrative Director , IETF Announcement List From: James Polk Subject: RE: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change In-Reply-To: References: <20120720160624.12163.25321.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: "iaoc@ietf.org" , "iab@iab.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 17:04:41 -0000 At 07:28 AM 7/23/2012, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) wrote: >Let's forget the religious discussion that seems to have broken out >as a result of this. > >While Easter may be a major Christian festival, I don't believe the >issue is such (I can think of no reasons why Christians would have a >doctrinal reason other than those that apply to any other Sunday and >those obligations could mostly be met at the venue rather than at >home). Rather it is Easter the secular public holiday that happens >to occur in many countries. > >This is the set of days when schools take an extended break, parents >take said children off on short holidays; cheap air tickets cease to >be available; when you get on the plane, it is full of screaming children; kinda like we're all going to experience at next year's IETF86 timed exactly in the middle of US spring break going to/from Orlando (home to 4(?) amusement parks including Disneyworld)? Air travel will be crazy (families book tickets many months - like 6 - in advance), and depending on which hotel we're in, it could be worse than staying at the airport each day. -j >local transport all works to a reduced timetable; for those IETFers >who end up wishing to travel by train, they find themselves moving >to busses to cater for the engineering works which a 4 day weekend >seems to encourage. > >So my advice would be, change the dates if it looks like you are >going to hold the meeting in a country that takes such holidays, or >where a significant number of people would need to transit through >such a country. If so you need to take into account at least both >the Friday and Monday in some countries. > >Keith > >P.S. Trying to avoid every religious and public holiday is an >impossible task. Do what other organizations have done and >concentrate on the impact of such holidays on holding the meeting in >any location. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of IETF Administrative Director > > Sent: 20 July 2012 17:06 > > To: IETF Announcement List > > Cc: iaoc@ietf.org; iab@iab.org; ietf@ietf.org; wgchairs@ietf.org > > Subject: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change > > > > The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed date change for IETF > > 95 > > scheduled for March 2016. > > > > Currently IETF 95 is scheduled for 27 March to 1 April 2016. 27 March is > > Easter. > > > > The IAOC is proposing IETF 95 be rescheduled for 20 - 25 March 2016 and > > would like > > feedback on those dates before making a decision. Comments appreciated to > > ietf@ietf.org > > by 6 August 2012. > > > > Ray Pelletier > > IETF Administrative Director From adrian@olddog.co.uk Mon Jul 23 13:52:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D6611E809A; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 13:52:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y7GNnVlPYGMK; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 13:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F12111E808E; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 13:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6NKpvPt017269; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 21:51:58 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (natint3.juniper.net [66.129.224.36]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6NKpsLb017252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Jul 2012 21:51:56 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Working Group Chairs'" Subject: WG Secretaries : IETF 84 - Working Group Chairs' Lunch Tutorial Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 21:51:54 +0100 Message-ID: <026a01cd6914$ffeac210$ffc04630$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac1pFP0R9U4U+yySRqGg9mDc/GyfyA== Content-Language: en-gb Cc: 'IETF Agenda' , edu-team@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, irsg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 20:52:02 -0000 Hi, After discussion with the EDU team and for the avoidance of doubt... WG Secretaries are invited to this and all WG chairs' lunch tutorials = (except the one about how to keep things secret from WG secretaries). Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: iesg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:iesg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of IETF > Agenda > Sent: 03 July 2012 19:49 > To: Working Group Chairs > Cc: iab@iab.org; iesg@ietf.org; irsg@irtf.org > Subject: IETF 84 - Working Group Chairs' Lunch Tutorial >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > As usual, we will be holding a WG Chairs Training Lunch at IETF 84 in > Vancouver. All current WG chairs, BOF chairs, IESG members and IAB > members are welcome to attend. The lunch meeting will take place on > Wednesday, 1 August at 11:30am, location TBD, and a complementary = lunch > will be provided. >=20 > For this session, Michelle Cotton will talk about the IANA > considerations and what WG chairs need to know to write and to review > this section in their WG documents. There will also be time for > questions and answers. >=20 > We hope this will help WG chairs do their jobs, meet other WG chairs, > and get a free lunch in the process. >=20 > If you would like to attend this session, please RSVP to = agenda@ietf.org > ASAP and the cutoff will be July 25, 2012. The location will be sent = to those who > RSVP. >=20 > Thanks, > Wanda > (on behalf of Mirjam Kuehne, Radia Perlman, & Edu Team) From D.Malas@cablelabs.com Mon Jul 23 15:01:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADED511E808E; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:01:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xxx4cRct6N0a; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231B411E808C; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6NM1P0G007745; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:01:25 -0600 Received: from srvxchg.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.15) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:01:25 -0600 (MDT) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from srvxchg.cablelabs.com ([10.5.0.15]) by srvxchg ([10.5.0.15]) with mapi; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:01:25 -0600 From: Daryl Malas To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" , IETF Administrative Director , IETF Announcement List Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:01:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change Thread-Topic: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change Thread-Index: Ac1pHrOT0fsvAUBmShaTl0OFDsvRug== Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.3.120616 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Approved: ondar Cc: "iaoc@ietf.org" , "iab@iab.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:01:28 -0000 +1 On 7/23/12 6:28 AM, "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" wrote: >Let's forget the religious discussion that seems to have broken out as a >result of this. > >While Easter may be a major Christian festival, I don't believe the issue >is such (I can think of no reasons why Christians would have a doctrinal >reason other than those that apply to any other Sunday and those >obligations could mostly be met at the venue rather than at home). Rather >it is Easter the secular public holiday that happens to occur in many >countries. > >This is the set of days when schools take an extended break, parents take >said children off on short holidays; cheap air tickets cease to be >available; when you get on the plane, it is full of screaming children; >local transport all works to a reduced timetable; for those IETFers who >end up wishing to travel by train, they find themselves moving to busses >to cater for the engineering works which a 4 day weekend seems to >encourage. > >So my advice would be, change the dates if it looks like you are going to >hold the meeting in a country that takes such holidays, or where a >significant number of people would need to transit through such a >country. If so you need to take into account at least both the Friday and >Monday in some countries. > >Keith > >P.S. Trying to avoid every religious and public holiday is an impossible >task. Do what other organizations have done and concentrate on the impact >of such holidays on holding the meeting in any location. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of IETF Administrative Director >> Sent: 20 July 2012 17:06 >> To: IETF Announcement List >> Cc: iaoc@ietf.org; iab@iab.org; ietf@ietf.org; wgchairs@ietf.org >> Subject: Proposed IETF 95 Date Change >>=20 >> The IAOC is seeking community feedback on a proposed date change for >>IETF >> 95 >> scheduled for March 2016. >>=20 >> Currently IETF 95 is scheduled for 27 March to 1 April 2016. 27 March >>is >> Easter. >>=20 >> The IAOC is proposing IETF 95 be rescheduled for 20 - 25 March 2016 and >> would like >> feedback on those dates before making a decision. Comments appreciated >>to >> ietf@ietf.org >> by 6 August 2012. >>=20 >> Ray Pelletier >> IETF Administrative Director From jhutz@cmu.edu Mon Jul 23 18:26:26 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F80D11E80F3; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:26:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lJmVVu68NdAQ; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A7211E8085; Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.202.99] (pool-74-111-100-191.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net [74.111.100.191]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id q6O1QLnC006357 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Jul 2012 21:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: WG Secretaries : IETF 84 - Working Group Chairs' Lunch Tutorial From: Jeffrey Hutzelman To: adrian@olddog.co.uk In-Reply-To: <1241_1343076726_q6NKq5Dg002426_026a01cd6914$ffeac210$ffc04630$@olddog.co.uk> References: <1241_1343076726_q6NKq5Dg002426_026a01cd6914$ffeac210$ffc04630$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 21:26:33 -0400 Message-ID: <1343093193.12556.1.camel@tuzanor.jhutz.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 Cc: 'Working Group Chairs' , 'IETF Agenda' , irsg@irtf.org, iab@iab.org, edu-team@ietf.org, jhutz@cmu.edu X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 01:26:26 -0000 On Mon, 2012-07-23 at 21:51 +0100, Adrian Farrel wrote: > (except the one about how to keep things secret from WG secretaries). Hm; I seem to have missed that one. Does the EDU team have a secretary who might be able to send me a copy of the slides? -- Jeff From john-ietf@jck.com Tue Jul 24 09:02:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E387021F861D for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 09:02:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.578 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.578 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1uWOruxZnkTB for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 09:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ECE121F85CC for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 09:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.115] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SthTw-0007wR-Bn; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:57:08 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:02:38 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Barry Leiba , wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Comments on document shepherd writeups Message-ID: <38825C8EA62866969CBCD8A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:02:56 -0000 --On Sunday, July 15, 2012 11:42 -0400 Barry Leiba wrote: > Having had some time, now, to read quite a lot of document > shepherd writeups (yes, we do read them, at least some of us), > I want to give my thoughts on what makes them more useful to > the IESG -- and, so, also, what doesn't help. I'll start by > saying that these are my personal thoughts, and not any sort > of consensus of the IESG. >... You can follow along with the writeup template; I > won't repeat the questions here. > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/template/doc-writeup.txt Having now tried to use it, that file is almost unusable as a template. As others pointed out over a month ago, it is a bit hard to use from the standpoint of filling in information (quite independent of the substantive issues addressed in your note). When I retrieved it prior to today, I got a version with hard double-spacing. Since I've got several of these to do at once (and rather than just complain), I've hacked together a XML template that incorporates the document writeup material and that can be easily filled in and used to generate readable output (or used to generate a text file). If the tools or xml2rfc teams think that such a thing might be useful to others and want to post it somewhere, I'd be happy to contribute it (I'll also accept individual email requests if there aren't too many of them). best, john From iad@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 11:46:10 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6477B21F8601; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:46:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jzUJesFuWEjd; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FD821F85D5; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:46:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Administrative Director To: IETF Announcement List Subject: Co-Hosts Announced for IETF 86 in Orlando X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.30p3 Message-ID: <20120724184608.32185.77247.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:46:08 -0700 Cc: iaoc@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 18:46:11 -0000 The IAOC is pleased to announce the Co-Hosts for IETF 86 in Orlando Florida= , USA = March 10 - 15, 2013. The Co-Hosts are Comcast and NBCUniversal. Comcast Hosted IETF 71 in Phila= delphia, is = sponsoring IETF 85 in Atlanta, and has sponsored meeting breaks and ice cre= am socials at other meetings. NBCUniversal is Hosting its first meeting with the IETF. We want to thank our benefactors. The IETF cannot support its technical st= andards efforts, = including the Secretariat and RFC Editor, without the generous support of i= ts hosts and = sponsors. Interested in hosting or sponsoring an IETF meeting? Contact Drew Dvorshak= at = dvorshak@isoc.org. The meeting schedule is here: Thanks again to Comcast and NBCUniversal! We are just days away from IETF 84 in Vancouver. Registrations are open an= d operators = are standing by (so to speak). Visit and join the 1,250 who have already registered. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director From ietf-secretariat@ietf.org Wed Jul 25 12:08:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5A321F87A0; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:08:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HrG1tZSDedB7; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E9421F8675; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:08:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Secretariat To: IETF Announcement List Subject: IETF 84 - Registration X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.30p3 Message-ID: <20120725190839.12521.27721.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:08:39 -0700 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, 84all@ietf.org, irsg@irtf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 19:08:40 -0000 84th IETF Meeting Vancouver, BC, Canada July 29-August 3, 2012 Host: Google Meeting venue: Hyatt Regency Vancouver http://Vancouver.hyatt.com Register online at: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/84/ Registration A. Registration - USD 800.00 = B. Full-time Student Registrations - USD 150.00 (with proper ID) C. One Day Pass Registration - USD 350.00 D. Online Registration and Payment ends Friday, 27 July 2012, 1700 local Va= ncouver time. E. On-site Registration starting Sunday, 29 July 2012 at 1100 local Vancouv= er time. On-site registration at the Hyatt Regency will be located on the Convention= Level (Third Floor) in Balmoral. Only 4 days until the Vancouver IETF! From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Wed Jul 25 22:51:30 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72EB621F8701 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 22:51:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OSYgpR9dsWQL for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 22:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F69C21F8700 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 22:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lagv3 with SMTP id v3so1139588lag.31 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 22:51:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=RiGLq/uHE6HICTTv1cMnn9/PMTBcPu94D2wjbVDWTPw=; b=Iyo+xadFuR2NMihOhCd1iATatowB/WEZH9FfzeMqpvrihtHkStGPno6ZjTJB2AzIsz aEridMuOKAbX/BGJLG6k0wk/FFiR2eeKYnGBHz6UeBAUjhcsinyFImiKmcWmvbRTMtW3 lumcrVd9jZ/rP70UzKKLZhpzNk6IET+80IE4I/mjjbt42yI6/0HjRydP62nDr/bR6Nrr eYYhfc/VDMqQOf09gtVrc4W8U95Mz0E3DvEfmTZotugRmpwfT2jxAoh2gZKP0uoUr2FO I/Im/iFXoKJO3+TESz3UtrXjOf8Q63ytBmDYvcwkMpJ9ws5oP7/U28ASTd14FX7II/1Q SjVA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.42.164 with SMTP id p4mr12889158lbl.54.1343281888449; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 22:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.17.133 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 22:51:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <38825C8EA62866969CBCD8A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> References: <38825C8EA62866969CBCD8A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 01:51:28 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: x8JMhazzOKjvGopbPLh6xVAV7wg Message-ID: Subject: Re: Comments on document shepherd writeups From: Barry Leiba To: John C Klensin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 05:51:30 -0000 > Having now tried to use it, that file is almost unusable as a > template. As others pointed out over a month ago, it is a bit > hard to use from the standpoint of filling in information (quite > independent of the substantive issues addressed in your note). > When I retrieved it prior to today, I got a version with hard > double-spacing. Ah. The link from the IESG page gives you the text version, which is OK: http://www.ietf.org/iesg/template/doc-writeup.txt The link from the WG Chairs page gives you the HTML version, which is bad: http://www.ietf.org/iesg/template/doc-writeup.html I've put a ticket in to IT, asking them to fix the HTML page. Apart from that, an XML version that could be processed with something like XML2RFC might be nice, yes. Barry From leifj@sunet.se Thu Jul 26 02:45:08 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34A321F8655 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2012 02:45:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.444, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IjlzRif7Z4ng for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2012 02:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from backup-server.nordu.net (backup-server.nordu.net [IPv6:2001:948:4:1::66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FC521F85EA for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2012 02:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.11] (ua-83-227-179-169.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se [83.227.179.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by backup-server.nordu.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6Q9j0rT010810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2012 11:45:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5011119B.6060000@sunet.se> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 11:44:59 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120714 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: Comments on document shepherd writeups References: <38825C8EA62866969CBCD8A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:45:08 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Apart from that, an XML version that could be processed with > something like XML2RFC might be nice, yes. > Or maybe just turn it into surveymonkey. Thats basically what it is: a questionnaire. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAREZcACgkQ8Jx8FtbMZndJ6ACfV1dQhTzfP9gJm7ey/UESQp6Q pLsAnidhrAz0WGuJKQj7wQr3cD0KO+L6 =jtCs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From glenzorn@gmail.com Thu Jul 26 18:55:45 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DA921F8540 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:55:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.849, BAYES_00=-2.599, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE=1, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TdbOreIU9D0J for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gh0-f172.google.com (mail-gh0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1AC621F853F for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ghbg16 with SMTP id g16so2918031ghb.31 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:55:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:organization :date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=5B7hR+oXInVKvqsMPTUIi6JbsW+XqGAj+Vfg9q2PBYk=; b=DtpKi4+u7i1baDuVRzLVHgxYood2F0uNUE/Bme1Og/srdVjbpNvffgbjaePfPxPmqJ zn7fhawWjp4ejmjbSr32uOaISqPuMno40HNRzJlTGiyOgAsJuuwjFg+oCTO2G+cYOVTR SaTQ7Evb0RwkAcvSqAGTVrmFAgNLe9U0WT/trE6akDCCupZVEJgtPCRmJl9jgi7uYS8G CNXE1GYjHcYe6D8RcflmO0rLBP18C0JiNw1fl2q9QeuCjswJ9SKmDcNZi1ZBfTEGNM0q pvFrrfoC4QHC1IPC/QQLFLlzBD/d6hrsvaAHKLx6Kdwkp57G6Q0IRI/i01tB7PlZwdxG Km6Q== Received: by 10.50.10.230 with SMTP id l6mr3260846igb.64.1343354143271; Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (ppp-58-11-233-151.revip2.asianet.co.th. [58.11.233.151]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ch4sm4894039igb.2.2012.07.26.18.55.40 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Co-Hosts Announced for IETF 86 in Orlando From: Glen Zorn To: wgchairs@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20120724184608.32185.77247.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20120724184608.32185.77247.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=-2WqYlX+slgftj+ZQo0Sp" Organization: Network Zen Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 08:55:38 +0700 Message-ID: <1343354138.27813.30.camel@gwz-laptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.3 (2.32.3-1.fc14) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 01:55:45 -0000 --=-2WqYlX+slgftj+ZQo0Sp Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-L2xdrd0J6Q0q4NEFDyib" --=-L2xdrd0J6Q0q4NEFDyib Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 11:46 -0700, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > The IAOC is pleased to announce the Co-Hosts for IETF 86 in Orlando Florida, USA > March 10 - 15, 2013. Does this mean the the social event will be here ;-)? > > The Co-Hosts are Comcast and NBCUniversal. Comcast Hosted IETF 71 in Philadelphia, is > sponsoring IETF 85 in Atlanta, and has sponsored meeting breaks and ice cream socials at > other meetings. > > NBCUniversal is Hosting its first meeting with the IETF. > > We want to thank our benefactors. The IETF cannot support its technical standards efforts, > including the Secretariat and RFC Editor, without the generous support of its hosts and > sponsors. > > Interested in hosting or sponsoring an IETF meeting? Contact Drew Dvorshak at > dvorshak@isoc.org. The meeting schedule is here: upcoming.html> > > Thanks again to Comcast and NBCUniversal! > > We are just days away from IETF 84 in Vancouver. Registrations are open and operators > are standing by (so to speak). Visit and join > the 1,250 who have already registered. > > Ray Pelletier > IETF Administrative Director --=-L2xdrd0J6Q0q4NEFDyib Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 11:46 -0700, IETF Administrative Director wrote: 
The IAOC is pleased to announce the Co-Hosts for IETF 86 in Orlando Florida, USA 
March 10 - 15, 2013.

Does this mean the the social event will be here ;-)?


The Co-Hosts are Comcast and NBCUniversal.  Comcast Hosted IETF 71 in Philadelphia, is 
sponsoring IETF 85 in Atlanta, and has sponsored meeting breaks and ice cream socials at
other meetings.  <http://www.comcast.com>

NBCUniversal is Hosting its first meeting with the IETF.  <http://www.nbcuni.com/>

We want to thank our benefactors.  The IETF cannot support its technical standards efforts, 
including the Secretariat and RFC Editor, without the generous support of its hosts and 
sponsors.

Interested in hosting or sponsoring an IETF meeting?  Contact Drew Dvorshak at 
dvorshak@isoc.org.  The meeting schedule is here:  <https://www.ietf.org/meeting/
upcoming.html>

Thanks again to Comcast and NBCUniversal!

We are just days away from IETF 84 in Vancouver.  Registrations are open and operators 
are standing by (so to speak).  Visit <https://www.ietf.org/meeting/84/index.html> and join
the 1,250 who have already registered.

Ray Pelletier
IETF Administrative Director

--=-L2xdrd0J6Q0q4NEFDyib-- --=-2WqYlX+slgftj+ZQo0Sp Content-ID: <1343354138.27813.29.camel@gwz-laptop> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="face-wink.png" Content-Type: image/png; name="face-wink.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQCAYAAAAf8/9hAAAABHNCSVQICAgIfAhkiAAAAAlwSFlz AAAN1wAADdcBQiibeAAAABl0RVh0U29mdHdhcmUAd3d3Lmlua3NjYXBlLm9yZ5vuPBoAAAAXdEVY dEF1dGhvcgBMYXBvIENhbGFtYW5kcmVp35EaKgAAACl0RVh0RGVzY3JpcHRpb24AQmFzZWQgb2Yg SmFrdWIgU3RlaW5lciBkZXNpZ26ghAVzAAADQUlEQVQ4jWWTW2jVdQCAv//t3HbqzF3cOluL1kWi 3DTP3NAt3bAeokKCXoISFHUEhQ9d3grxKWh0gYxJSAwSKQh8KAkqtcZWtqXTww562NnZpq6dTbdz ds75337/36/Xhd/zx/f2aUopNnL6g96koRmvhw21F13bAYBUk26gXQxUcObgx6N3NvraxsDI+30H o/EHvnhmZ0+4ofUhs6ahEZSislJgeWFRXB0fcyvl8juHPx07fV/g2/d2/dT65Pb+1MDzEc39By1U gJAAFLgW+M0EViejP//o5DNTFwa//PtFAB3gm3d7B1se39rf1bs7EuROId1JVAL0xnq0xnpIKALn L2T+a/YM7Iu0tD+1d+hIahBAP3Wsr80IRYd27Hoh4lwfRgZL6PEa9FgcFY5COMZKRefDr+ZQ/iJO +iTP7XspaljhoeMHUm26L/xD27Z1h+X8BWRplttrNQyfLXH46BgyCNCUIp1eZvxKCQWIUh5u/c7u nr5wEIhDZiC8/vqmh43VqfMIKUi2hnjjlU7erH8Uw7sBKKLYCLcKnocmJd7tyzQ9dsAIhNdvesro iNc2UVnPk1mFijlLe9jFMDJIz0JDo6PJ58j+NpRTQXkCsT5LYmcST+gdpi800ykuIT2X7W11nL/h 8ev1LD3P1tH5dC0AIdvltZTEKThU130iro/vVPECZZq2XU3nb17tbjUTyHKJl7u3UrQ288v4FX77 M4eUCuFJasOSjmbYUiPA3MTM9GVc10mbTsClTPZmV0MsplvOPcrzacxNLewf2IMWq0Pay8jiHHpl CYoFgqKLG4szlclIR3DJFIEauTZTeDvZbkS3BBIdB8dboFy4hdINLBNiBigRgO0iXUVOWYxdy7ue 0EeM8enC8rmRz0Nzd+2uemvNSiiBqRS6UoS0gJAUaI4PtotX8cnZOt9P69WSLT85ezH3nQ7QVEme KHpW9tydZHVy1WRl3Yeyjbluo63ZuEWbf4uCiXsGZ7J11ZUq2WVj/sT/XjiaSlmVB+8eV0odeyRe irREXa056gKwWA2xUA2rmWLcUWifNTibPxqemPDvuxHg1b72Th3/LQ2tN5DaEwCGrrIKNSqxTv7w R25qo/8f4VCvV0QXv9gAAAAASUVORK5CYII= --=-2WqYlX+slgftj+ZQo0Sp-- From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Sat Jul 28 09:45:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7FC21F85C7 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:45:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.232 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.232 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.745, BAYES_05=-1.11, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tio8O6BjbKJe for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F08F21F85C5 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lagv3 with SMTP id v3so2802456lag.31 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:45:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=BmMccLryW4jVcaS9dZV+GH+z0z8aU9daitLgh8CBMx0=; b=IErpKZQXApHMqdd6uuC8Wz2Na7Oe4xCkwH/dDNrBs3PIkHYmWB0bVpvUXN8WU+SMbA c6v1acxSrXqYZj3taZcZylG7c3BDCGTFT3hGzbHIUk2DqZifKSjN9MA77UmzlV27oGvk bzwkCWt3ePbRNAo+Cd452PTM+PoiZ6f5Hwlq8JLyUamPDa/lAQ0uno5WC0wvOLayXApw OExAj/blOFlrpb/olGb5yX4EkhqAMU5Vdra423gKT9XD1+CUpLUTpjKQD0jBqRmKSTdB qeEQtJt19M6lMlz9KOWYBPCNGukrkdFMK27uGir39pXyfE3+xhe+CcFt0vW1X5M4Up3S bTTQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.113.199 with SMTP id ja7mr6302641lab.10.1343493935982; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.17.133 with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:45:35 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: gete8dpuJHWeP0zT0L6OZg91Np4 Message-ID: Subject: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday From: Barry Leiba To: Working Group Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04088ee5cfe9da04c5e68ee1 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 16:45:38 -0000 --f46d04088ee5cfe9da04c5e68ee1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 May I suggest that we (chairs, secretaries, and whatever ADs want to join) gather at Chill Winston in Gastown (3 Alexander St, Vancouver, BC) for social interaction and to get to know each other better, as soon as we can get there after the plenary on Wednesday? They have a good selection of beers and what seems decent food. It's a 15-20 minute walk and easy to find. I'll see about letting them know that we'll be descending upon them, if we get a few "Yeah, that seems great" responses here. Barry --f46d04088ee5cfe9da04c5e68ee1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May I suggest that we (chairs, secretaries, and whatever ADs want to join) = gather at Chill Winston in Gastown (3 Alexander St, Vancouver, BC) for soci= al interaction and to get to know each other better, as soon as we can get = there after the plenary on Wednesday? =A0They have a good selection of beer= s and what seems decent food. =A0It's a 15-20 minute walk and easy to f= ind. =A0I'll see about letting them know that we'll be descending u= pon them, if we get a few "Yeah, that seems great" responses here= .

Barry
--f46d04088ee5cfe9da04c5e68ee1-- From joelja@bogus.com Sat Jul 28 10:29:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013CA21F85F0 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:29:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iVWc2syBk3ra for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCE221F85E6 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-6624.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.102.36]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q6SHTRBo005195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:29:28 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:29:19 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120717 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Barry Leiba Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:29:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Working Group Chairs X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:29:36 -0000 On 7/28/12 9:45 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: > May I suggest that we (chairs, secretaries, and whatever ADs want to > join) gather at Chill Winston in Gastown (3 Alexander St, Vancouver, > BC) for social interaction and to get to know each other better, as > soon as we can get there after the plenary on Wednesday? They have a > good selection of beers and what seems decent food. It's a 15-20 > minute walk and easy to find. I'll see about letting them know that > we'll be descending upon them, if we get a few "Yeah, that seems > great" responses here. the locals don't seem to like it that much. steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some balance of favorable attention. 375 Water Street Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Canada > Barry From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Sat Jul 28 10:45:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4CB021F8653 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:45:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.927 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.927 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mfEzwjrJzgTg for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B656F21F861F for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lagv3 with SMTP id v3so2819154lag.31 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:45:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=0QWTK/R1PdpxqlgMDnSFS0kd5yEdARzy5XGy/4kmqyc=; b=GAjP4PnIsMBkv+ElmzvTEpq8jB/3jCIJ5dKYNeh22EhJiPbDElMIh3FdDxwIRL9P65 keJhULjLAkVt0SDjH+nXXUBhiB0BcNAYLbIVMj4nQ9nDz7VJcsS58bdiaaWrIbAIgkv/ CSffvvqSWoLUU3BTpyw92/aLqxwJJTBIYuLLOXMiLrEARexW420MNfnIV5xNj2GeUM44 ipBOETbudWJLu0dKsVL+/PVrLHi8MDDkuTDYVcOcwfn3Zq9M6Xx8PfdxhS60Xlt+/7lp bjA/AJMAhd2aU8rTKZJEIJigojtns2TnNbmXRsRBPABAZ8+DcmHFo0KoazuO3Koyi7+m hgzA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.111.200 with SMTP id ik8mr6413925lab.15.1343497534733; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.17.133 with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:45:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:45:34 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: aN1duUkaRt96YcLuqtkAlWcmgbM Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday From: Barry Leiba To: Working Group Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04089131507dc104c5e76513 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:45:38 -0000 --f46d04089131507dc104c5e76513 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: > steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some > balance of favorable attention. > 375 Water Street sa=D&oi=plus&q=https://maps.**google.com/maps?ie%3DUTF8%** > 26cid%3D18199275471910539258%**26q%3DSteamworks%2BBrewing%** > 2BCo%26iwloc%3DA%26gl%3DUS%**26hl%3Den>Vancouver, > BC V6B 1B8 Canada > OK, that works for me. Updated plan: Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve some space after allowing time for more feedback. Other comments? Barry --f46d04089131507dc104c5e76513 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote:
steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner so= me balance of favorable attention.
375 Water Street <https://www.google.com/url?sa=3DD&oi=3Dplus&q= =3Dhttps://maps.google.com/maps?ie%3DUTF8%26cid%3D18199275471= 910539258%26q%3DSteamworks%2BBrewing%2BCo%26iwloc%3DA%26gl%3D= US%26hl%3Den>Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Canada

OK, that works for me.
Updated p= lan:
Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll= try to reserve some space after allowing time for more feedback.

Other comments?

Barry
=A0 --f46d04089131507dc104c5e76513-- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Sat Jul 28 10:54:44 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E827421F8655 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:54:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.195 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.195 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GwHgFwM1qUh6 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw2.ericsson.se (mailgw2.ericsson.se [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF48421F8596 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:54:43 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-b7fb66d000003bb6-6c-50142762eb9a Received: from esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw2.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 31.78.15286.26724105; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 19:54:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.264.0; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 19:54:42 +0200 Message-ID: <5014275F.6050805@ericsson.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:54:39 -0700 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmplluLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3VjdJXSTAYPtVTYv/+6cwOjB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEro2etYkEjd8XnD71MDYzzObsYOTkkBEwkejY8YoGwxSQu3FvP 1sXIxSEkcIpR4tn0pawQznJGiYc3O9hBqngFtCXWtE0FquLgYBFQlbi1WA4kzCZgIXHzRyMb iC0qECjxbetxVohyQYmTM5+ALRAREJWYc/AQWI2wgJ7EymntTBDzNzBKTPpwhxkkwQnUPPHK GnaQ+RICkhK3D6SAhJmB6qdcbWGEsOUlmrfOBisXAjqnoamDdQKj4Cwk62YhaZmFpGUBI/Mq RuHcxMyc9HIjvdSizOTi4vw8veLUTYzAoDy45bfqDsY750QOMUpzsCiJ81pv3eMvJJCeWJKa nZpakFoUX1Sak1p8iJGJg1OqgXEH31zZnzVhjMUu299ZbrMvfLrrYuINQf+Ak7umhz/hr7zw KT8kaMK52jT5tZEztlUu+PdA56VLpu0ZBaHHOVOOsTPbLPqcuLHhxs7IKoYrAZy9Ph9jFyw7 4PRTcpfTFlvPbLMnDrdvbJ5xUuJFjubGExdCsyRKzNS/cqy8fKpYfPmLm1Vrsx4osRRnJBpq MRcVJwIAggt1QxgCAAA= X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:54:45 -0000 On 2012-07-28 10:45, Barry Leiba wrote: > On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: > > steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner > some balance of favorable attention. > 375 Water Street > >Vancouver, > BC V6B 1B8 Canada > > > OK, that works for me. > Updated plan: > Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve > some space after allowing time for more feedback. > > Other comments? Sounds good, I will try to be their unless something really importat pops up. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From barryleiba@gmail.com Sat Jul 28 10:58:29 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA70F21F85D0 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:58:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.93 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.93 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7pZ5vskyKHoh for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com (mail-pb0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B85521F85CC for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pbcwy7 with SMTP id wy7so7121827pbc.31 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:58:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=h2dUD9Vfd7ELfyNT9ZfPhNVKqqI9bQXpvTy5IAfVe1w=; b=p3fpcJrUfjiAurT3mo2Frd+aTb5fapkMPYjImxHCnV7M59No/hpRmWubs1LWWI4xWU lSb5nljtTiNegPW3S7N4iGJ6DaxFZg1XO4FJ8J6N/zzgxM/jMY5jGtOGS2aG2Xb0ay55 uyyXGzEjHO4TRQo45RxUBUyYrlcM9HSz3sHEGguNU9CxX8iZBJJEz+YcgabmfpinzAeC DQJ3/wGCKBWpIUabyQlK63UBcMEnyOyFkylNo+/VN/mEKbDeDhBqKF5zC6Sizgx7SsRC PDs5jLc7eKqwF0FlYImWYApfbp2+f9E/qhTFJ08Cp48eXxDcMV7IpVBlcUjUz4sZzewo utAg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.234.6 with SMTP id ua6mr23019446pbc.117.1343498309031; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.64.103 with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:58:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5014275F.6050805@ericsson.com> References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <5014275F.6050805@ericsson.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:58:29 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2LZsBhlDU4-793PAAFL9BwpcKjE Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday From: Barry Leiba To: Magnus Westerlund Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b33d6f67755ac04c5e79370 Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:58:29 -0000 --047d7b33d6f67755ac04c5e79370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Sounds good, I will try to be their unless something really importat > pops up. > Oh, Magnus, what could be more important than beer with your buds? b --047d7b33d6f67755ac04c5e79370 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sounds good, I will try to be their unless s= omething really importat
pops up.

Oh, Magnus, what could be more important t= han beer with your buds?

b
=A0
--047d7b33d6f67755ac04c5e79370-- From ajs@crankycanuck.ca Sat Jul 28 12:25:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C6921F85D4 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:25:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.348 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.348 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.508, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZzgFAh4lNDt0 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B806721F85C6 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-227.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5D8408A031 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 19:25:35 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:25:33 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday Message-ID: <20120728192533.GL12788@crankycanuck.ca> References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 19:25:37 -0000 I _think_ I can still make that. The week is looking a little crowded, but unless I failed to write something down Wed night is still open. Best, A On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 01:45:34PM -0400, Barry Leiba wrote: > On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: > > > steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some > > balance of favorable attention. > > 375 Water Street > sa=D&oi=plus&q=https://maps.**google.com/maps?ie%3DUTF8%** > > 26cid%3D18199275471910539258%**26q%3DSteamworks%2BBrewing%** > > 2BCo%26iwloc%3DA%26gl%3DUS%**26hl%3Den>Vancouver, > > BC V6B 1B8 Canada > > > > OK, that works for me. > Updated plan: > Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve > some space after allowing time for more feedback. > > Other comments? > > Barry -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@crankycanuck.ca From dcrocker@bbiw.net Sat Jul 28 12:26:47 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E78821F85D4 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:26:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IoQkkt74w1cV for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF2221F85C6 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (S0106002401e57197.vc.shawcable.net [24.84.118.170]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6SJQbiv017683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:26:38 -0700 Message-ID: <50143CE4.4070700@bbiw.net> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:26:28 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Barry Leiba Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <5014275F.6050805@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 19:26:47 -0000 On 7/28/2012 10:58 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: > Oh, Magnus, what could be more important than beer with your buds? I'd hope the place could serve better than Bud. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From hallam@gmail.com Sat Jul 28 15:33:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65BF621F8667; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:33:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.048, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bjL9XpTxEln6; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f172.google.com (mail-ob0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6203421F8604; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbwc20 with SMTP id wc20so7343111obb.31 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:33:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Igh2QTPuWVWzKYO9+2EZAfGqYSdb2ObBB9+TtSY5du8=; b=D5CM8F1cfMUBbyBCMkNzOCQFttgJkdeFdgWlN3uPhaWVgT0zjAINgpqvpsmDA95XTi 2LtDzMIHYPgD++WrDVvqeR5F1SZq/hGrS/zjcK1SDYphBcPta//ltEQ8YCZypZoRzMe+ V7SUL6vT8xJiu72IwqCkPgwHkW23shIIasrGuq5K0PCK+HMUWULcvOTyafXO9vTnsvV+ Xu7dOvZQmDO7s/F4U7qyHOTZjPFj9a8+lbW6+6fshElpNIJUQMAdnSk2dyIeKXMkH2Q6 84AJe9Y2M/gOSZbX+Yh3scLvTqUX3NiVs3ngLQLfmA0qA47s2EO3WwqZEwfGcYkJawg0 n44w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.25.38 with SMTP id z6mr10184696oef.15.1343514832907; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.71.169 with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:33:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120724184608.32185.77247.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20120724184608.32185.77247.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 18:33:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Co-Hosts Announced for IETF 86 in Orlando From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: IETF Administrative Director Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff253ae5daef704c5eb6c29 Cc: "iaoc@ietf.org" , "iab@iab.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , IETF Announcement List , "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 22:33:54 -0000 --e89a8ff253ae5daef704c5eb6c29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 There must be a cheaper way for NBC commentators to work out who Sir Tim Berners-Lee is. Perhaps we should have someone give an innane commentary... On Tuesday, July 24, 2012, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > The IAOC is pleased to announce the Co-Hosts for IETF 86 in Orlando > Florida, USA > March 10 - 15, 2013. > > The Co-Hosts are Comcast and NBCUniversal. Comcast Hosted IETF 71 in > Philadelphia, is > sponsoring IETF 85 in Atlanta, and has sponsored meeting breaks and ice > cream socials at > other meetings. > > NBCUniversal is Hosting its first meeting with the IETF. < > http://www.nbcuni.com/> > > We want to thank our benefactors. The IETF cannot support its technical > standards efforts, > including the Secretariat and RFC Editor, without the generous support of > its hosts and > sponsors. > > Interested in hosting or sponsoring an IETF meeting? Contact Drew > Dvorshak at > dvorshak@isoc.org . The meeting schedule is here: < > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/ > upcoming.html> > > Thanks again to Comcast and NBCUniversal! > > We are just days away from IETF 84 in Vancouver. Registrations are open > and operators > are standing by (so to speak). Visit < > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/84/index.html> and join > the 1,250 who have already registered. > > Ray Pelletier > IETF Administrative Director > -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ --e89a8ff253ae5daef704c5eb6c29 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There must be a cheaper way for NBC commentators to work out who Sir T= im Berners-Lee is.

Perhaps we should have someone = give an innane commentary...


On Tuesday, July 24,= 2012, IETF Administrative Director wrote:
The IAOC is pleased to announce the Co-Hosts= for IETF 86 in Orlando Florida, USA
March 10 - 15, 2013.

The Co-Hosts are Comcast and NBCUniversal. =A0Comcast Hosted IETF 71 in Phi= ladelphia, is
sponsoring IETF 85 in Atlanta, and has sponsored meeting breaks and ice cre= am socials at
other meetings. =A0<http://www.comcast.com>

NBCUniversal is Hosting its first meeting with the IETF. =A0<http://www.nbcuni.com/>
We want to thank our benefactors. =A0The IETF cannot support its technical = standards efforts,
including the Secretariat and RFC Editor, without the generous support of i= ts hosts and
sponsors.

Interested in hosting or sponsoring an IETF meeting? =A0Contact Drew Dvorsh= ak at
dvorshak@isoc.org. =A0The meeting schedule is here: = =A0<https://www.ietf.org/meeting/
upcoming.html>

Thanks again to Comcast and NBCUniversal!

We are just days away from IETF 84 in Vancouver. =A0Registrations are open = and operators
are standing by (so to speak). =A0Visit <https://www.ietf.org/meeting/84/i= ndex.html> and join
the 1,250 who have already registered.

Ray Pelletier
IETF Administrative Director


--
Website: ht= tp://hallambaker.com/

--e89a8ff253ae5daef704c5eb6c29-- From hallam@gmail.com Sat Jul 28 16:19:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B57621F8691; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 16:19:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.627 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.627 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o2q7LYKBMxY5; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f172.google.com (mail-ob0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6720521F860B; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbwc20 with SMTP id wc20so7398621obb.31 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=8Jt+yMIE4VN0PhrvbjzXGu7wUWdPmuNs0Y0Z2vf+zes=; b=Uqhx75yUbf6Uh+w3mWTb5XAUcO/bz7/i4H20MAnQGM9oldVkfsJDdUNY+VTBhpoA6m lW3vqIZNxV0S30MVqBCT6T5eP9QLxZwpwZXJW9okCVGaeTF7jWUW8KzsAs/MU5Faierc OP2yqo4vUtEoXDEFIaMAsYx/QtQOOX1C2pjoQ0d5bONEQHvIx155cDnFV2RMsNXVlYZS r7gu2seJIXCyeoQDJRBJlkZUZHmprHYtO/oiiThcqMGvJm2pYakjFk+OVlRkMzeWHSW0 pGceB6QN79B2SWKvCOnLVEzodZdi+5VWQO8WPhPESIdJSQH9YDv5QGcch5U6Nhw+RbxQ wJnQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.50.98 with SMTP id b2mr10344293obo.28.1343517552968; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 16:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.71.169 with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 16:19:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120724184608.32185.77247.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20120724184608.32185.77247.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 19:19:12 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Co-Hosts Announced for IETF 86 in Orlando From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: IETF Administrative Director Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044481d97e84a204c5ec0ef6 Cc: "iaoc@ietf.org" , "iab@iab.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , IETF Announcement List , "wgchairs@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 23:19:14 -0000 --f46d044481d97e84a204c5ec0ef6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 There must be a cheaper way for NBC commentators to work out who Sir Tim Berners-Lee is. Perhaps we should have someone give an innane commentary... On Tuesday, July 24, 2012, IETF Administrative Director wrote: > The IAOC is pleased to announce the Co-Hosts for IETF 86 in Orlando > Florida, USA > March 10 - 15, 2013. > > The Co-Hosts are Comcast and NBCUniversal. Comcast Hosted IETF 71 in > Philadelphia, is > sponsoring IETF 85 in Atlanta, and has sponsored meeting breaks and ice > cream socials at > other meetings. > > NBCUniversal is Hosting its first meeting with the IETF. < > http://www.nbcuni.com/> > > We want to thank our benefactors. The IETF cannot support its technical > standards efforts, > including the Secretariat and RFC Editor, without the generous support of > its hosts and > sponsors. > > Interested in hosting or sponsoring an IETF meeting? Contact Drew > Dvorshak at > dvorshak@isoc.org . The meeting schedule is here: < > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/ > upcoming.html> > > Thanks again to Comcast and NBCUniversal! > > We are just days away from IETF 84 in Vancouver. Registrations are open > and operators > are standing by (so to speak). Visit < > https://www.ietf.org/meeting/84/index.html> and join > the 1,250 who have already registered. > > Ray Pelletier > IETF Administrative Director > -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ --f46d044481d97e84a204c5ec0ef6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There must be a cheaper way for NBC commentators to work out who Sir T= im Berners-Lee is.

Perhaps we should have someone = give an innane commentary...


On Tuesday, July 24,= 2012, IETF Administrative Director wrote:
The IAOC is pleased to announce the Co-Hosts= for IETF 86 in Orlando Florida, USA
March 10 - 15, 2013.

The Co-Hosts are Comcast and NBCUniversal. =A0Comcast Hosted IETF 71 in Phi= ladelphia, is
sponsoring IETF 85 in Atlanta, and has sponsored meeting breaks and ice cre= am socials at
other meetings. =A0<http://www.comcast.com>

NBCUniversal is Hosting its first meeting with the IETF. =A0<http://www.nbcuni.com/>
We want to thank our benefactors. =A0The IETF cannot support its technical = standards efforts,
including the Secretariat and RFC Editor, without the generous support of i= ts hosts and
sponsors.

Interested in hosting or sponsoring an IETF meeting? =A0Contact Drew Dvorsh= ak at
dvorshak@isoc.org. =A0The meeting schedule is here: = =A0<https://www.ietf.org/meeting/
upcoming.html>

Thanks again to Comcast and NBCUniversal!

We are just days away from IETF 84 in Vancouver. =A0Registrations are open = and operators
are standing by (so to speak). =A0Visit <https://www.ietf.org/meeting/84/i= ndex.html> and join
the 1,250 who have already registered.

Ray Pelletier
IETF Administrative Director


--
Website: ht= tp://hallambaker.com/

--f46d044481d97e84a204c5ec0ef6-- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Sat Jul 28 17:49:21 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530EE21F86C9 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:49:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.053, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IQHpCP-zp7JX for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B04B21F86C4 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:49:20 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f6c6d000001cc5-04-5014888f94e0 Received: from esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 87.DE.07365.F8884105; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 02:49:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.264.0; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 02:49:18 +0200 Message-ID: <5014888A.5060503@ericsson.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:49:14 -0700 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <5014275F.6050805@ericsson.com> <50143CE4.4070700@bbiw.net> In-Reply-To: <50143CE4.4070700@bbiw.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvrW5/h0iAwe6HQhaHFl9itfj96QOb xf/9UxgdmD0u7TzJ5tGyqpfZY8mSn0wBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGct3LmMpOMJWsWfvUfYG xlWsXYycHBICJhK7nyxnhrDFJC7cW8/WxcjFISRwilHi4NHDLBDOckaJGS2P2UCqeAW0Jd71 bwbrZhFQlWhbdpQRxGYTsJC4+aMRrEZUIFDi29bjrBD1ghInZz4BGsTBISKgIrF8SjRImFkg VOL13e0sILawgJ7EymntTBC7NjJJNE1sZAJJcApoAPVuYQPplRCQlLh9IAWiV09iytUWRghb XqJ562ywB4SATmto6mCdwCg0C8nmWUhaZiFpWcDIvIpRODcxMye93FAvtSgzubg4P0+vOHUT IzCsD275rbuD8dQ5kUOM0hwsSuK8XEn7/YUE0hNLUrNTUwtSi+KLSnNSiw8xMnFwSjUw9s2e pS+uWZ68eoqrhlCW9VL5kxYqi6byvv31bavNYqNkwwfMz996qnx9/aPi3AftgmMbZxydGiv8 Kd3t20HzQ59KsvcvXHzoVL/qJKGqczlH7+ddmhYktUw4PD7kscT7roUK/l7BRlK7PyZueOga rdR//Thnn7KPTafX1wptE0GuznS2iwzHlFiKMxINtZiLihMBSf6laDkCAAA= Cc: "wgchairs@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 00:49:21 -0000 On 2012-07-28 12:26, Dave Crocker wrote: > > > On 7/28/2012 10:58 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: >> Oh, Magnus, what could be more important than beer with your buds? > > > I'd hope the place could serve better than Bud. > Yes, they are a brewpub. So they have a number of their own beers. http://www.ratebeer.com/p/steamworks-brewing-co-canada/398/ Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From eburger@standardstrack.com Sun Jul 29 13:41:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F02721F85D5 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:41:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7hKbAsgebE7E for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biz104.inmotionhosting.com (biz104.inmotionhosting.com [74.124.215.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2B321F85D7 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.239.250.1] (port=38522 helo=[10.20.240.171]) by biz104.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SvaIn-0003o3-Sj; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:41:29 -0700 Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-215066455; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Eric Burger In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:41:26 -0700 Message-Id: <6F949E16-D887-4B88-85AF-C386F593004F@standardstrack.com> References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> To: Barry Leiba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - biz104.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - standardstrack.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: Working Group Chairs X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 20:41:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail-1-215066455 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Boy, we're hopeless. I believe the protocol specification required this in response: "Yeah, that seems great" Yeah, that seems great On Jul 28, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: > On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: > steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some = balance of favorable attention. > 375 Water Street = Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Canada >=20 > OK, that works for me. > Updated plan: > Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to = reserve some space after allowing time for more feedback. >=20 > Other comments? >=20 > Barry >=20 --Apple-Mail-1-215066455 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIPODCCBN0w ggPFoAMCAQICEHGS++YZX6xNEoV0cTSiGKcwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwezELMAkGA1UEBhMCR0Ix GzAZBgNVBAgMEkdyZWF0ZXIgTWFuY2hlc3RlcjEQMA4GA1UEBwwHU2FsZm9yZDEaMBgGA1UECgwR 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DQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEADX4C99zxp5HWPJuTkClYkl6zeRz+ucAyRyP79dNFhw0lkxo3gQCv KaaKBt5HtHY5Kyq8EZg6spNaCjT83ke6FvdxS9+J378eGjkiZRv4ARJtMXHRwt8ZpTTJDFtY61Ij PCYTXGmOgSLOb03k84LvYh78SKx8oOwevVjBHFuEMUr92ClAnToC6hwwsTVfJ6sz2mqq3+4gp1kf phjoEeNtyn/pO3JmbiiJbH/Vd5bi/WvvyednV7ehrj0xYkMLLuVm3Qlw0FXQ4jyWUoObHccJzv65 sc+8qlg6ifRU/dMdn50oiDtFalU9ew8drNpiv4zDndIaYz+m/MAOMU+VUGx0fAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-1-215066455-- From ynir@checkpoint.com Sun Jul 29 13:50:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AD721F84E4 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:50:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.282 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.282 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.317, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sd2tn4SG8iVC for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.checkpoint.com (smtp.checkpoint.com [194.29.34.68]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0B121F849D for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from il-ex01.ad.checkpoint.com (il-ex01.ad.checkpoint.com [194.29.34.26]) by smtp.checkpoint.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6TKoJKD027657; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 23:50:19 +0300 X-CheckPoint: {50159FA5-0-1B221DC2-4FFFF} Received: from il-ex01.ad.checkpoint.com ([126.0.0.2]) by il-ex01.ad.checkpoint.com ([126.0.0.2]) with mapi; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 23:50:18 +0300 From: Yoav Nir To: Eric Burger Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 23:50:18 +0300 Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday Thread-Topic: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday Thread-Index: Ac1ty8NH5UfNh4cSTFS8g8arSaZqag== Message-ID: <40635216-1410-42AA-9053-637687EB9FC4@checkpoint.com> References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <6F949E16-D887-4B88-85AF-C386F593004F@standardstrack.com> In-Reply-To: <6F949E16-D887-4B88-85AF-C386F593004F@standardstrack.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US x-kse-antivirus-interceptor-info: scan successful x-kse-antivirus-info: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Working Group Chairs , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 20:50:32 -0000 Yeah, that seems great On Jul 29, 2012, at 1:41 PM, Eric Burger wrote: > Boy, we're hopeless. >=20 > I believe the protocol specification required this in response: >=20 > "Yeah, that seems great" >=20 > Yeah, that seems great >=20 >=20 > On Jul 28, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: >=20 >> On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: >> steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some ba= lance of favorable attention. >> 375 Water Street Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Ca= nada >>=20 >> OK, that works for me. >> Updated plan: >> Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve = some space after allowing time for more feedback. >>=20 >> Other comments? >>=20 >> Barry >>=20 >=20 From dcrocker@bbiw.net Sun Jul 29 13:58:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F41421F8700 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:58:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HLk1K-f6bqhO for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9155221F86AD for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.129.22.217] ([130.129.22.217]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6TKwmKZ028773 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:58:50 -0700 Message-ID: <5015A3FA.8030801@bbiw.net> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:58:34 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Burger Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <6F949E16-D887-4B88-85AF-C386F593004F@standardstrack.com> In-Reply-To: <6F949E16-D887-4B88-85AF-C386F593004F@standardstrack.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Working Group Chairs , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 20:58:56 -0000 On 7/29/2012 1:41 PM, Eric Burger wrote: > Boy, we're hopeless. > > I believe the protocol specification required this in response: > > "Yeah, that seems great" > > Yeah, that seems great ytsg d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From lee.howard@twcable.com Sun Jul 29 14:02:22 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C192911E80C5 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:02:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GolpZvtLuyL4 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdpipgw02.twcable.com (cdpipgw02.twcable.com [165.237.59.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2019511E80AE for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:02:22 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.15 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,675,1336363200"; d="scan'208";a="399051646" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB06.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.15]) by cdpipgw02.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 29 Jul 2012 17:02:09 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS03.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.27]) by PRVPEXHUB06.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.15]) with mapi; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 17:02:20 -0400 From: "Howard, Lee" To: Eric Burger , Barry Leiba Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 17:02:18 -0400 Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday Thread-Topic: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday Thread-Index: Ac1tzXEjKEbLixhVTP2ybtRKyJirug== Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6F949E16-D887-4B88-85AF-C386F593004F@standardstrack.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.3.120616 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Working Group Chairs X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 21:02:23 -0000 Yeah, that seems great. Too bad I have to leave Tuesday night. Have fun! Please select a dark ale (maybe a porter) and put on the table or bar for me. Lee On 7/29/12 4:41 PM, "Eric Burger" wrote: >Boy, we're hopeless. > >I believe the protocol specification required this in response: > >"Yeah, that seems great" > >Yeah, that seems great > > >On Jul 28, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: >> steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some >>balance of favorable attention. >> 375 Water Street >>>e%3DUTF8%26cid%3D18199275471910539258%26q%3DSteamworks%2BBrewing%2BCo%26i >>wloc%3DA%26gl%3DUS%26hl%3Den>Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Canada >> >> OK, that works for me. >> Updated plan: >> Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve >>some space after allowing time for more feedback. >> >> Other comments? >> >> Barry >> > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. From adam@nostrum.com Sun Jul 29 14:12:10 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6B511E80D3 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:12:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jQnYiI52x7PY for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AB311E80BC for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-435b.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.67.91]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6TLC0wr049642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 29 Jul 2012 16:12:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <5015A714.9010006@nostrum.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:11:48 -0700 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <6F949E16-D887-4B88-85AF-C386F593004F@standardstrack.com> <5015A3FA.8030801@bbiw.net> In-Reply-To: <5015A3FA.8030801@bbiw.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 130.129.67.91 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: Working Group Chairs , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 21:12:11 -0000 On 7/29/12 1:58 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > On 7/29/2012 1:41 PM, Eric Burger wrote: >> Boy, we're hopeless. >> >> I believe the protocol specification required this in response: >> >> "Yeah, that seems great" >> >> Yeah, that seems great > > > ytsg y /a From simon.perreault@viagenie.ca Sun Jul 29 14:47:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D6E11E80D6 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:47:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c04L325aZzvs for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000:226:55ff:fe57:14db]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57CB11E80D5 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from porto.nomis80.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:16:d4f2:dfff:aecc:1f25]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0350D400AB for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 17:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5015AF54.4020807@viagenie.ca> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:47:00 -0700 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120717 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <6F949E16-D887-4B88-85AF-C386F593004F@standardstrack.com> In-Reply-To: <6F949E16-D887-4B88-85AF-C386F593004F@standardstrack.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 21:47:03 -0000 Le 2012-07-29 13:41, Eric Burger a écrit : > Boy, we're hopeless. > > I believe the protocol specification required this in response: > > "Yeah, that seems great" > > Yeah, that seems great +1 Had lunch there (Steamworks) today. Beer was fine. Food was ok. Service was super slow. Fixable with more interrupts from our part, we were just not in a hurry. Simon -- DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca From leifj@nordu.net Sat Jul 28 12:28:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B471E21F85D4 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:28:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id igGY6pI1JnHH for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from backup-server.nordu.net (backup-server.nordu.net [IPv6:2001:948:4:1::66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A249721F85C6 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 12:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kerio.nordu.net (kerio.nordu.net [109.105.110.42]) by backup-server.nordu.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6SJSjrO009585 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 28 Jul 2012 21:28:48 +0200 (CEST) VBR-Info: md=nordu.net; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org,swamid.se DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nordu.net; s=default; t=1343503728; bh=FLqqx+swe1tV4x3EkG+21n0xhXkwL3JG74kyin4BPUk=; h=From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Message-Id: Date:To:Mime-Version; b=LfEJjIHKcyDlWo31wmcUrJjR2z7pyNfKZZ8vCUHGpYxN7UxeBc8Pg4YqIfPRfmn8s GFXQnGwV5qC4MP/0MHs8hZWi4hP2qMIdl0AjN433cswNt07v6ycgYMoX4/Zaq3PGfp 3+/kkdNXxzur0BzEUkp7iki8iyDTqplENsaBggcY= X-Footer: bm9yZHUubmV0 Received: from [208.54.15.10] ([208.54.15.10]) by kerio.nordu.net; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 21:28:43 +0200 From: "Leif Johansson" Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-AD4E6A80-F514-4BDC-B16D-1E8BE608E846 In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 14:28:41 -0500 To: Barry Leiba Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 16:21:21 -0700 Cc: Working Group Chairs X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 19:28:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail-AD4E6A80-F514-4BDC-B16D-1E8BE608E846 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 28 jul 2012 kl. 12:45 skrev "Barry Leiba" : > On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: > steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some bala= nce of favorable attention. > 375 Water Street Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Canada= >=20 > OK, that works for me. > Updated plan: > Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve so= me space after allowing time for more feedback. >=20 > Other comments? >=20 > Barry ok by my beer-rule #1: joel knows --Apple-Mail-AD4E6A80-F514-4BDC-B16D-1E8BE608E846 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8


28 jul 2012 kl. 12:45 skrev "Barry Leiba" <barryleiba@computer.org>:

On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote:
steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some balance of favorable attention.
375 Water Street <https://www.google.com/url?sa=D&oi=plus&q=https://maps.google.com/maps?ie%3DUTF8%26cid%3D18199275471910539258%26q%3DSteamworks%2BBrewing%2BCo%26iwloc%3DA%26gl%3DUS%26hl%3Den>Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Canada

OK, that works for me.
Updated plan:
Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve some space after allowing time for more feedback.

Other comments?

Barry

ok by my beer-rule #1: joel knows
--Apple-Mail-AD4E6A80-F514-4BDC-B16D-1E8BE608E846-- From nomcom-chair@ietf.org Sun Jul 29 20:22:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864E721F8460 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 20:22:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J4UGwI1ztCyl for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 20:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD08521F8446 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 20:22:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: NomCom Chair To: Working Group Chairs Subject: Need volunteers for the NomCom X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.32 Message-ID: <20120730032233.17770.35790.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 20:22:33 -0700 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 09:38:40 -0700 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 03:22:34 -0000 We are currently looking for volunteers to serve on the 2012-2013 NomCom. As you know, the success of the NomCom process depends crucially on = having a large pool of volunteers from throughout the IETF community. = In particular, it is valuable for the pool of volunteers to have strong = representation from all of the technical areas within the IETF. = I understand that not all IETF participants read the IETF announce list = frequently. Therefore, if you would be willing to inform active participant= s = in your working groups about this year's call for NomCom volunteers, I = would greatly appreciate it. = The NomCom 2012-2013 Call for Volunteers is open until this Sunday, = August 5. Details can be found at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/ann/nomcom/= 49851/ Thank you for your help, - Matt Lepinski mlepinski.ietf@gmail.com nomcom-chair@ietf.org From marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca Mon Jul 30 12:53:50 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5EC11E81E4 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 12:53:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jx2-kFO1Hk2S for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 12:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000:226:55ff:fe57:14db]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F3D11E81C7 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 12:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:ac0f:18cc:147:9d09] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:ac0f:18cc:147:9d09]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6042641582 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 15:53:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Blanchet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: etherpad service Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 12:53:47 -0700 Message-Id: <0A7CF4B8-C689-48B4-8B96-F091366E0162@viagenie.ca> To: wgchairs@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 19:53:50 -0000 hello, my wg meeting is starting in a few minutes, and I'm still looking to = where is the ether pad assigned for our wg. I assumed it was going to = appear at this link (http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sunset4/minutes) but it = does not. =20 Should I conclude that we don't have ether pad service this week? (I = really liked it for collective minute taking) Marc.= From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Mon Jul 30 13:03:04 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C4D321F8505 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:03:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gk2vIw+wuSw6 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A29621F84A2 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6UK2xEN019633 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:02:59 +0100 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk q6UK2xEN019633 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1343678580; bh=UEDYCcF13akcrDEGeJv0piBo+3s=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=hKfZwhWhqSQCAjD8D4YP6d9oJ0wZUCwq8ReeG1Qaa6+pbnbrkWF/3vd12Arrj2tDz ybcNVj79xiBqu+Ff9Rx4zCS4QSkPisR8X90cXTRglWamT++QhJKD1Ns3R4ewZbz9zd IRs1kOezsuUdz/IsYBKIL23pZB21097cZnYm0BEY= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id o6YL2x0430643127DZ ret-id none; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:02:59 +0100 Received: from dhcp-1197.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-1197.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.17.151]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q6UK2p69001823 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:02:52 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.0 \(1485\)) Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <5014888A.5060503@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:02:49 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <5014275F.6050805@ericsson.com> <50143CE4.4070700@bbiw.net> <5014888A.5060503@ericsson.com> <67533046-ADE2-40DD-AD65-E13C98F23006@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1485) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=o6YL2x043064312700; tid=o6YL2x0430643127DZ; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: q6UK2xEN019633 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:03:04 -0000 On 29 Jul 2012, at 01:49, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: > Yes, they are a brewpub. So they have a number of their own beers. > http://www.ratebeer.com/p/steamworks-brewing-co-canada/398/ Looks like a great choice. Tim= From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Mon Jul 30 13:53:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2618011E81AA for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:53:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ds+dzH3CWZDQ for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com (mail-lb0-f172.google.com [209.85.217.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DEC11E81A8 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbgo11 with SMTP id go11so3912713lbb.31 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:53:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=y7Ad6yb9oSNPei6WJqLTmuUzSzffyJztgP/GEprMqjo=; b=MmF8jbq78YcEOyd998trltxXZECHVm43K0tR85OXMxTYdUvX+ixtRpHOWFJOZ6V9Ud Z65KpVvT3GevIxWav8yLHiApfizG4OZa/XhGv3f/RWr1P0QL1zQ3+ZLwOFOtIy+8tUdD dJKg26XUu76ti4eRfXZdtVQlES3PZBKJfBDmJGpOWIrOsx20J9w+j72F1AAfzB9HS9UR nELB3BNHhtWnf8HK0tuD3lmDAe5M6qMoPN8hNMhHYCm0i9McWROmZNXMD+sUMmNGioTM 9dlSLboK204st+EoFUVfrl63o5NluYYCDOBf71Ao2DyQNxp9RhsfuA5mqsL+eOPeBC0E iOoQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.10.198 with SMTP id k6mr5861250lbb.83.1343681581130; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.17.133 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:53:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:53:00 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8LaNaIYGTqno8b5GnObZGa-xKuE Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday From: Barry Leiba To: Working Group Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4efe350255a3fb04c6123ffb X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:53:03 -0000 --e0cb4efe350255a3fb04c6123ffb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Saturday, July 28, 2012, Barry Leiba wrote: > On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: > >> steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some >> balance of favorable attention. >> 375 Water Street > sa=D&oi=plus&q=https://maps.**google.com/maps?ie%3DUTF8%** >> 26cid%3D18199275471910539258%**26q%3DSteamworks%2BBrewing%** >> 2BCo%26iwloc%3DA%26gl%3DUS%**26hl%3Den>Vancouver, >> BC V6B 1B8 Canada >> > > OK, that works for me. > Updated plan: > Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve > some space after allowing time for more feedback. > Update: I've tried to reserve space for us, and they say they have no private space available for Wednesday. They do have space across the street at "Rogue", but they want a $500 deposit and there's a $1000 "minimum spend". I suggest that we just descend on the place as individuals, and figure that we can gather and mix, with no "minimum spend", but no private space. In other words, plan is as stated above, and we'll find each other there. Barry --e0cb4efe350255a3fb04c6123ffb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, July 28, 2012, Barry Leiba wrote:
On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote:
steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some balan= ce of favorable attention.
375 Water Street <https://www.google.com/url?sa=3DD&oi=3Dplus&q= =3Dhttps://maps.google.com/maps?ie%3DUTF8%26cid%3D18199275471= 910539258%26q%3DSteamworks%2BBrewing%2BCo%26iwloc%3DA%26gl%3D= US%26hl%3Den>Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Canada

OK, that works for me.
Updated p= lan:
Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll= try to reserve some space after allowing time for more feedback.

Update:
I've tried to reserv= e space for us, and they say they have no private space available for Wedne= sday. =A0They do have space across the street at "Rogue", but the= y want a $500 deposit and there's a $1000 "minimum spend".

I suggest that we just descend on the place as individu= als, and figure that we can gather and mix, with no "minimum spend&quo= t;, but no private space. =A0In other words, plan is as stated above, and w= e'll find each other there.

Barry

--e0cb4efe350255a3fb04c6123ffb-- From eburger@standardstrack.com Mon Jul 30 13:59:02 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CF311E81AD for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.25 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.25 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.048, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J8sJs1dxq10u for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biz104.inmotionhosting.com (biz104.inmotionhosting.com [74.124.215.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D793111E818E for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-625f.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.98.95]:51363) by biz104.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Svx3M-00070E-CC; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:59:00 -0700 References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-4A35B14B-3EDE-4635-8446-0889416B5AEF Message-Id: <5EEDD187-0DBE-4EB1-AFBD-5798D2A0EC01@standardstrack.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) From: Eric Burger Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:58:57 -0700 To: Barry Leiba X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - biz104.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - standardstrack.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: Working Group Chairs X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:59:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail-4A35B14B-3EDE-4635-8446-0889416B5AEF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm confused. Meet at Steamworks Brewing, NOT Rogue? -- Sent from a mobile device. Sorry for typos or weird auto-correct. Thank IETF= LEMONADE for mobile email! On Jul 30, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Barry Leiba wrote: > On Saturday, July 28, 2012, Barry Leiba wrote: > On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: > steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some bala= nce of favorable attention. > 375 Water Street Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Canada= >=20 > OK, that works for me. > Updated plan: > Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve so= me space after allowing time for more feedback. >=20 > Update: > I've tried to reserve space for us, and they say they have no private spac= e available for Wednesday. They do have space across the street at "Rogue",= but they want a $500 deposit and there's a $1000 "minimum spend". >=20 > I suggest that we just descend on the place as individuals, and figure tha= t we can gather and mix, with no "minimum spend", but no private space. In o= ther words, plan is as stated above, and we'll find each other there. >=20 > Barry >=20 --Apple-Mail-4A35B14B-3EDE-4635-8446-0889416B5AEF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I'm confused. Meet at Steamworks Brewing, NOT Rogue?

--
Sent from a mobile device. Sorry for typos or weird auto-correct. Thank IETF LEMONADE for mobile email!

On Jul 30, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:

On Saturday, July 28, 2012, Barry Leiba wrote:
On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote:
steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some balance of favorable attention.
375 Water Street <https://www.google.com/url?sa=D&oi=plus&q=https://maps.google.com/maps?ie%3DUTF8%26cid%3D18199275471910539258%26q%3DSteamworks%2BBrewing%2BCo%26iwloc%3DA%26gl%3DUS%26hl%3Den>Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Canada

OK, that works for me.
Updated plan:
Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve some space after allowing time for more feedback.

Update:
I've tried to reserve space for us, and they say they have no private space available for Wednesday.  They do have space across the street at "Rogue", but they want a $500 deposit and there's a $1000 "minimum spend".

I suggest that we just descend on the place as individuals, and figure that we can gather and mix, with no "minimum spend", but no private space.  In other words, plan is as stated above, and we'll find each other there.

Barry

--Apple-Mail-4A35B14B-3EDE-4635-8446-0889416B5AEF-- From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Mon Jul 30 14:03:59 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDCB11E81DA for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:03:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h7N1xsv9P6-R for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com (mail-lb0-f172.google.com [209.85.217.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C100E11E81D9 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbgo11 with SMTP id go11so3918263lbb.31 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:03:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=gWc+ksrjtRrgEGlm6o2AyuBc7dcT4UHmpMFtju9HPxA=; b=eAyEMBmsxyByGdI+YwfppU6fbxrcVy0SOa8OSRaHmrD6jhoNQDFtvFQF3S/okhrisH gsqjCgsywISJlajTeMttjrrnlJisjoJSSGlU1BjVJ3OCGMgxzGDRRYMq57SxZ8BzK8O7 Eq3akYeiK0wLjxRVknFKuw/K2fl67vyEEoqV+m5AdNKz38EZBDIlgiQB15BKjsLlgO2v Ts0wA0KrPZOl66hU/hOlP7jlY4pERYG4qRz8WeCZLvTylIhuBqqshp6OUV1DYjAZfq8K hRN/sr9PBt8FEQ6gEFo/wSstbvnnFGNcTiZLHVvxRQr/tuzjdIzcSsYZB6wnXYwyE+YZ 3qJw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.111.200 with SMTP id ik8mr12688411lab.15.1343682237647; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.17.133 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:03:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5EEDD187-0DBE-4EB1-AFBD-5798D2A0EC01@standardstrack.com> References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <5EEDD187-0DBE-4EB1-AFBD-5798D2A0EC01@standardstrack.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:03:57 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: RxVgrBAwXklqzGsrK-lrdGnDB48 Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday From: Barry Leiba To: Eric Burger Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04089131774b7504c61266ba Cc: Working Group Chairs , Barry Leiba X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:03:59 -0000 --f46d04089131774b7504c61266ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I'm confused. Meet at Steamworks Brewing, NOT Rogue? > You confuse easily, I guess. Yes. Steamworks. As planned: > On Saturday, July 28, 2012, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: >> >>> steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some >>> balance of favorable attention. >>> 375 Water Street >> sa=D&oi=plus&q=https://maps.**google.com/maps?ie%3DUTF8%** >>> 26cid%3D18199275471910539258%**26q%3DSteamworks%2BBrewing%** >>> 2BCo%26iwloc%3DA%26gl%3DUS%**26hl%3Den>Vancouver, >>> BC V6B 1B8 Canada >>> >> >> OK, that works for me. >> Updated plan: >> Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try to reserve >> some space after allowing time for more feedback. >> > > Only change is that no space will be reserved. Barry --f46d04089131774b7504c61266ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm confus= ed. Meet at Steamworks Brewing, NOT Rogue?
You confuse easily, I guess. =A0Yes. =A0Steamworks. =A0As planned:=A0<= span>
=A0
On Saturday, July 28, 2012, Barry Leiba wro= te:
On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeg= gli wrote:
steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to garner some balan= ce of favorable attention.
375 Water Street <https://www.google.com/url?sa=3DD&oi=3Dplus&q= =3Dhttps://maps.google.com/maps?ie%3DUTF8%26cid%3D18199275471= 910539258%26q%3DSteamworks%2BBrewing%2BCo%26iwloc%3DA%26gl%3D= US%26hl%3Den>Vancouver, BC V6B 1B8 Canada

OK, that works for me.
Updated p= lan:
Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll= try to reserve some space after allowing time for more feedback.

Only chang= e is that no space will be reserved.

Barry
=A0
--f46d04089131774b7504c61266ba-- From simon.perreault@viagenie.ca Mon Jul 30 14:40:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A0911E814F for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:40:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uuozUKHmHjfo for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000:226:55ff:fe57:14db]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B702511E8101 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from porto.nomis80.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:16:d4f2:dfff:aecc:1f25]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1489A41582 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5016FF4F.70606@viagenie.ca> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:40:31 -0700 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120717 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <5EEDD187-0DBE-4EB1-AFBD-5798D2A0EC01@standardstrack.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:40:33 -0000 yeah, that seems great Le 2012-07-30 14:03, Barry Leiba a écrit : > I'm confused. Meet at Steamworks Brewing, NOT Rogue? > > > You confuse easily, I guess. Yes. Steamworks. As planned: > >> On Saturday, July 28, 2012, Barry Leiba wrote: >> >> On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: >> >> steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to >> garner some balance of favorable attention. >> 375 Water Street >> > >Vancouver, >> BC V6B 1B8 Canada >> >> >> OK, that works for me. >> Updated plan: >> Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try >> to reserve some space after allowing time for more feedback. >> >> > Only change is that no space will be reserved. > > Barry -- DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca From adam@nostrum.com Mon Jul 30 17:35:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17C121F85ED for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:35:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TyZ5MXO05-mS for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2097D21F85E1 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-1418.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-1418.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.20.24]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6V0ZGx7018074 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 30 Jul 2012 19:35:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <50172843.3000208@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:35:15 -0700 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Perreault Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday References: <5014216F.90009@bogus.com> <5EEDD187-0DBE-4EB1-AFBD-5798D2A0EC01@standardstrack.com> <5016FF4F.70606@viagenie.ca> In-Reply-To: <5016FF4F.70606@viagenie.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 130.129.20.24 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 00:35:18 -0000 200 OK /a On 7/30/12 2:40 PM, Simon Perreault wrote: > yeah, that seems great > > Le 2012-07-30 14:03, Barry Leiba a écrit : >> I'm confused. Meet at Steamworks Brewing, NOT Rogue? >> >> >> You confuse easily, I guess. Yes. Steamworks. As planned: >> >>> On Saturday, July 28, 2012, Barry Leiba wrote: >>> >>> On Saturday, July 28, 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: >>> >>> steamworks brewing. is a block or two closer and seems to >>> garner some balance of favorable attention. >>> 375 Water Street >>> >> >Vancouver, >>> BC V6B 1B8 Canada >>> >>> >>> OK, that works for me. >>> Updated plan: >>> Steamworks Brewing, after the plenary on Wednesday; I'll try >>> to reserve some space after allowing time for more feedback. >>> >>> >> Only change is that no space will be reserved. >> >> Barry > > From lberger@labn.net Mon Jul 30 17:56:17 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E23121F8616 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.766, BAYES_20=-0.74, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rY9Uz4qb47k4 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oproxy7-pub.bluehost.com (oproxy7.bluehost.com [IPv6:2605:dc00:100:2::a7]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B86A921F85BB for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30686 invoked by uid 0); 31 Jul 2012 00:56:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box313.bluehost.com) (69.89.31.113) by oproxy7.bluehost.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 2012 00:56:16 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=63SZ6XU4ixL6e2Fvv/+em6mWQRc0PdpTOp1kD2UVCUI=; b=kkjRSoFLBv6tt880Royuo4JEtf1gNCMRf2DMtdxLP91kuGZFd5lQ+rVi5kVjMK7E2avQ4hUAqvsi9+zhlmQiES+hWNTOYzlv6qOPhWpavxxY39lSKpYAGfK8BKETQIVG; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:45598 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Sw0ky-0001Hy-4L; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 18:56:16 -0600 Message-ID: <50172D2C.3010802@labn.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:56:12 -0700 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: etherpad service References: <0A7CF4B8-C689-48B4-8B96-F091366E0162@viagenie.ca> In-Reply-To: <0A7CF4B8-C689-48B4-8B96-F091366E0162@viagenie.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 00:56:17 -0000 ours seems to be up: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ccamp/minutes Lou (PS Much thanks to whoever made this happen.) On 7/30/2012 12:53 PM, Marc Blanchet wrote: > hello, > my wg meeting is starting in a few minutes, and I'm still looking to where is the ether pad assigned for our wg. I assumed it was going to appear at this link (http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sunset4/minutes) but it does not. > > Should I conclude that we don't have ether pad service this week? (I really liked it for collective minute taking) > > Marc. > > > From johnl@iecc.com Tue Jul 31 08:46:41 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85ED421F861F for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 08:46:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.841 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.841 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.242, BAYES_50=0.001, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VpCssAtjCHZn for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 08:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leila.iecc.com (leila6.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:4c:6569:6c61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C8C21F8620 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 08:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 81773 invoked from network); 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mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Date: 31 Jul 2012 15:46:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20120731154616.17811.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: WG Chairs Beer Evening, Wednesday In-Reply-To: <5015A714.9010006@nostrum.com> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:46:41 -0000 ytsg, but keep in mind that the fireworks start at 22:00 R's, John From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Tue Jul 31 14:57:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F3421F86C9 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:57:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0F1YJM+aA8Ar for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nominet.org.uk (mx4.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F3121F85DB for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:57:55 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:Received:From:To:Subject: Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:Date:Message-ID:Accept-Language: Content-Language:X-MS-Has-Attach:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type:Content-ID:Content-Transfer-Encoding: MIME-Version; b=yUTiDi7kccpVCvujXyMIS5sVv8xCJlO2K7a9FMSS8dLSen+vfgVth/7/ 3aVK4HoTXN2pm/2Uql7ei2ReTx9P8xKmU0Aoi5rhNjMsPhpNQb/y/7eyB NkPID5KOHRiugaD; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1343771875; x=1375307875; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Subject:=20"tools"=20vs=20"proceedings"=20content|Date: =20Tue,=2031=20Jul=202012=2021:57:49=20+0000|Message-ID: =20<0FA55DED-69CE-4824-AB1F-0D29B5903EA7@nominet.org.uk> |To:=20WG=20Chairs=20|MIME-Version:=20 1.0|Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20quoted-printable |Content-ID:=20<438385fa-a892-40bf-953c-11e9eb5ec5d2>; bh=d7h8e80xGO0Tsx11wqhFBQsXlJvM4PWvL5k0Rwc45eQ=; b=MNNQLaDxZHdTrKcfTw5GTE/MfTvgcNLBhEzN0hvLF5MVsSz7Z9blFrla tvgALr9aEp03BzZW8AGOaH37EjqRG3O0Abx3HrVQUaXVSbx/aLHtL57Qr T/urp/1JV/EgGwq; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,689,1336345200"; d="scan'208";a="34465580" Received: from wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.144]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 31 Jul 2012 22:57:54 +0100 Received: from WDS-EXC2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::7577:eaca:5241:25d4]) by wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::1593:1394:a91f:8f5f%19]) with mapi; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 22:57:51 +0100 From: Ray Bellis To: WG Chairs Subject: "tools" vs "proceedings" content Thread-Topic: "tools" vs "proceedings" content Thread-Index: AQHNb2eHmzzBe00WzEOjz80O2mVcBg== Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 21:57:49 +0000 Message-ID: <0FA55DED-69CE-4824-AB1F-0D29B5903EA7@nominet.org.uk> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <438385fa-a892-40bf-953c-11e9eb5ec5d2> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Working Group Chairs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 21:57:56 -0000 How often does content get synced from the Meeting Materials manager into t= he "tools" site? I noticed that a file that I uploaded by mistake and subsequently corrected= still links to the incorrect copy of the content on the version of the age= nda linked off the "tools" WG page, but is correct on the "proceedings" pag= e. Ray