Subject: RE: [16NG]I-DACTION:draft-ietf-16ng-ip-over-ethernet-over-802.16-01.txt

From: "Burcak Beser" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 06:20:48 -0700

Max,

Let me ask again, what is the objective? Is "(from the abstract)
transmission of IPv4 as well as IPv6 over Ethernet in a network
deploying the IEEE 802.16 cellular radio transmission technology" the
sole objective? Without a clear objective it is not possible to give
complete picture.

Regards,
-burcak

-----Original Message-----
From: Riegel, Maximilian [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 3:33 AM
To: Burcak Beser
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:
[16NG]I-DACTION:draft-ietf-16ng-ip-over-ethernet-over-802.16-01.txt 

Burcak,

I am still missing the explanation how multicast and broadcast may work
in IEEE802.16? You mentioned multicast and broadcast CIDs, but they are
only available in downlink, and how to realize Ethernet behavior on top
of IEEE802.16? In the best case I can imagine some fragments, but no
complete picture.

Bye
Max

-----Original Message-----
From: Burcak Beser [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 8:16 PM
To: Riegel, Maximilian
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:
[16NG]I-DACTION:draft-ietf-16ng-ip-over-ethernet-over-802.16-01.txt 

Max, 

Since you agree with my first point now, let's look at the second point
before jumping into any conclusions:

What is the objective of the draft? Is this simply "(from the abstract)
transmission of IPv4 as well as IPv6 over Ethernet in a network
deploying the IEEE 802.16 cellular radio transmission technology" or
something more?

Regards,
-burcak

-----Original Message-----
From: Riegel, Maximilian [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 12:02 PM
To: Burcak Beser
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:
[16NG]I-DACTION:draft-ietf-16ng-ip-over-ethernet-over-802.16-01.txt 

Burcak,

Downlink multicast and broadcast is not the issue, but how does this
work in the uplink direction?
Can you point me to the sections in the IEEE802.16 specification, where
I can find the details?

Bye
Max

-----Original Message-----
From: Burcak Beser [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 3:01 AM
To: Riegel, Maximilian
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:
[16NG]I-DACTION:draft-ietf-16ng-ip-over-ethernet-over-802.16-01.txt 

Max,

I am not aware of anything missing in the 802.16 regarding downlink
broadcast and multicast data transmissions. Can you elaborate on what is
missing? 

Regards,
-burcak 

-----Original Message-----
From: Riegel, Maximilian [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 11:28 AM
To: Burcak Beser
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:
[16NG]I-DACTION:draft-ietf-16ng-ip-over-ethernet-over-802.16-01.txt 

Burcak,

First, even when there are examples out how to provide IP multicast and
broadcast on link layers providing uplink unicast and downlink
multicast, the IEEE802.16 specification does not provide the details how
to accomplish this over an 802.16 transport connection (... as stated in
the I-D). 

Second, I agree with you that there is not enough normative language in
this revision. More normative language is due for the next version when
we have established the right framework for it. When reviewing all the
comments on -00.txt we found that most of the comments were addressing
just clarifications on how the pieces are fitting together.

Bye
Max

-----Original Message-----
From: Burcak Beser [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:08 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:
[16NG]I-DACTION:draft-ietf-16ng-ip-over-ethernet-over-802.16-01.txt 

I have two basic issues before going into a detailed readout fo the
draft.

First, the draft states that (from section 5.2.) "Current IEEE 802.16
[IEEE802.16][IEEE802.16e] does not define any transport connection for
IP broadcast and multicast data." 

Even though it is true that the IEEE 802.16 MAC does not natively
support bi-directional broadcast domains, it is my understanding that
IEEE 802.16 has both broadcast and multicast downlink CID's defined,
which is being used effectively to transport IP broadcast and multicast
data on downlink direction for various deployments today. 

If the aim of the draft is "(from the abstract) transmission of IPv4 as
well as IPv6 over Ethernet in a network deploying the IEEE 802.16
cellular radio transmission technology", the subject is well researched
and there are many simpler schemes alrady deployed for this purpose on
systems where uplink is unicast and broadcast downlink exists. If there
are other implied requirements I would like to see them on a problem
statement section since these are beyond the published scope of this
draft.

Second, the use of minimal normative language with only one "SHOULD"
statement along with a single non-normative "shall" statement alludes to
the fact that it is possible and highly probable that various
implentations will not behave the same manner. One example is whether a
Proxy ARP (section 6.2.) is required or not; further where should it
reside?

It can further be said that the draft does not even meet its own purpose
of emulating broadcast domains for the purpose of IPv4 and IPv6
transmissions. The draft will be improved greately by the careful
addition of normative statements which would also make sure that all
implentations based on this draft will behave in a predictable manner.

Regards,
-burcak

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From: "Riegel, Maximilian" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 15:51:13 +0200

Burcak,

The rest of the abstract is providing further details. And reading
chapter 5 may provide you the bigger picture.

Bye
Max

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Burcak Beser [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 3:21 PM
To: Riegel, Maximilian
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:

Max,

Regards,
-burcak

-----Original Message-----
From: Riegel, Maximilian [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 3:33 AM
To: Burcak Beser
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:

Burcak,

Bye
Max

-----Original Message-----
From: Burcak Beser [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 8:16 PM
To: Riegel, Maximilian
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:

Max, 

Regards,
-burcak

-----Original Message-----
From: Riegel, Maximilian [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 12:02 PM
To: Burcak Beser
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:

Burcak,

Bye
Max

-----Original Message-----
From: Burcak Beser [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 3:01 AM
To: Riegel, Maximilian
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:

Max,

Regards,
-burcak 

-----Original Message-----
From: Riegel, Maximilian [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 11:28 AM
To: Burcak Beser
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:

Burcak,

Bye
Max

-----Original Message-----
From: Burcak Beser [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:08 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE:

Regards,
-burcak