From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 15 21:08:54 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZGy3-00056h-Dw; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:08:35 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZGy1-00056c-Qg for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:08:33 -0400 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.237]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZGy0-0003yn-Kn for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:08:33 -0400 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t4so1490238wxc for <6lowpan@ietf.org>; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 18:08:32 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=itOpRg3+ekz3TNhbbXmRU2phCCVyvZ+T6OlUmJbUThq9VdY8uB3iRn8mupv8+NAmLEDB+nWxJDFVDjbkVU6DD0Q4k2RYyhbob2ucIaqcET3ELALvcUZfFejE1fse3sZPU2y5b8UHRVbFkyoV6famimX3PhkvWOo8X5FNsMGxAtA= Received: by 10.70.22.10 with SMTP id 10mr10352220wxv; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 18:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.27.11 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 18:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:08:32 +0900 From: "Soohong Daniel Park" To: 6lowpan@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Mark Townsley Subject: [6lowpan] What next ? X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org 6lowpan WG, AFAIC, 1-hour slot is just assigned to the 6lowpan meeting in San Diego. I am curious what will happen in the limited space. Obviously, we will have at least 30 minutes for the WGLC issues regarding both deliverables to move them forward, and at least 10 minutes for the agenda bashing and introductory... Also, I didn't see any notice from the WG (e.g., call for contribution or issue...) What next ? -- Daniel (Soohong Daniel Park) Mobile Convergence Laboratory, SAMSUNG Electronics. _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 15 21:34:57 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZHNR-0001QB-9L; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:34:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZHNQ-0001Q6-2x for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:34:48 -0400 Received: from grab.coslabs.com ([199.233.92.34]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZHNO-0004FZ-OA for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:34:48 -0400 Received: from dellx1.coslabs.com (dellx1.coslabs.com [199.233.92.20]) by grab.coslabs.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9G1YgOQ017450; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:34:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: [6lowpan] What next ? From: Geoff Mulligan To: Soohong Daniel Park In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:35:42 -0600 Message-Id: <1160962542.5749.301.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: Mark Townsley , 6lowpan@ietf.org X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Daniel, There is no next. We cannot do anything new until we complete the two documents. We have completed the problem statement and I feel that we have consensus on the document. On the format document I do not feel we have reached consensus on how to "fix" the mesh delivery field issue nor some of the significant points that David Culler brought up about diagnostics and future capabilities. Folks, if we can't solve these on the list before the meeting I suspect that we will spend the entire hour on just trying to get consensus on this one document. Please every speak up on your thoughts about the mesh delivery field and David Culler's email. Speak now or nothing new at the next ietf! geoff On Mon, 2006-10-16 at 10:08 +0900, Soohong Daniel Park wrote: > 6lowpan WG, > > AFAIC, 1-hour slot is just assigned to the 6lowpan meeting in San > Diego. I am curious what will happen in the limited space. Obviously, > we will have at least 30 minutes for the WGLC issues regarding both > deliverables to move them forward, and at least 10 minutes for the > agenda bashing and introductory... Also, I didn't see any notice from > the WG (e.g., call for contribution or issue...) What next ? > > _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 15 22:22:45 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZI7b-0001GY-09; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:22:31 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZI7a-0001GT-8J for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:22:30 -0400 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.239]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GZI7Y-00008e-0t for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:22:30 -0400 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t4so1504617wxc for <6lowpan@ietf.org>; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:22:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=DhN3JcgNaGl2Sk5PDkznpzUpbMETNnDVjxcRC5TgvwmOaz2iGHlz8iCsLFh6fOmBuLZFgluaOZvJOx8dFkf6HDKsjWoVC9A78S3rhZIFJOtAlLcNktPdqGRsbgZXsQqY3/0ucm/vjhwek/JhHvwb9n6MkmBIU92OPdfE5qVs+JE= Received: by 10.70.109.4 with SMTP id h4mr10495818wxc; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.27.11 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:22:27 +0900 From: "Soohong Daniel Park" To: "Geoff Mulligan" Subject: Re: [6lowpan] What next ? In-Reply-To: <1160962542.5749.301.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1160962542.5749.301.camel@localhost> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: Mark Townsley , 6lowpan@ietf.org X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Geoff, Looks reasonable from the WG perspective. Sure, we should complete both deliverables. I will revisit the relevant thread especially mesh of format document for further details... Thanks your quick reply. On 10/16/06, Geoff Mulligan wrote: > Daniel, > There is no next. We cannot do anything new until we complete the two > documents. We have completed the problem statement and I feel that we > have consensus on the document. > > On the format document I do not feel we have reached consensus on how to > "fix" the mesh delivery field issue nor some of the significant points > that David Culler brought up about diagnostics and future capabilities. > > Folks, if we can't solve these on the list before the meeting I suspect > that we will spend the entire hour on just trying to get consensus on > this one document. > > Please every speak up on your thoughts about the mesh delivery field and > David Culler's email. > > Speak now or nothing new at the next ietf! > > geoff > > On Mon, 2006-10-16 at 10:08 +0900, Soohong Daniel Park wrote: > > 6lowpan WG, > > > > AFAIC, 1-hour slot is just assigned to the 6lowpan meeting in San > > Diego. I am curious what will happen in the limited space. Obviously, > > we will have at least 30 minutes for the WGLC issues regarding both > > deliverables to move them forward, and at least 10 minutes for the > > agenda bashing and introductory... Also, I didn't see any notice from > > the WG (e.g., call for contribution or issue...) What next ? > > > > > > -- Daniel (Soohong Daniel Park) Mobile Convergence Laboratory, SAMSUNG Electronics. _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 22 06:37:58 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbaiB-0002aQ-JQ; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 06:37:47 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbaiA-0002Sc-3y for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 06:37:46 -0400 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.187]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gbai4-0003Ue-67 for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 06:37:46 -0400 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id n15so2113178nfc for <6lowpan@ietf.org>; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 03:37:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=P9ecupBtKxjHsndWmWsYoOoC3WYSeHWi30nhOlzBM2LcUo7t39NQgX4vkSf4jM38U9YHFY6vSgCMsoJ2I4cJVOYtCNOgNp40yViWXVfbEaqvuMCZghoiLXvPn/FWloFBG+g6WU0SyWwvxjdDgqPUzZazwN2dAJJ7FSNv7yapeQg= Received: by 10.78.128.11 with SMTP id a11mr5386451hud; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 03:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.125.18 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 03:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:37:38 +0900 From: "Ki-Hyung Kim" To: "Geoff Mulligan" , "gabriel montenegro" Subject: Re: [6lowpan] Mesh Delivery Field In-Reply-To: <006c01c6e45f$22adf650$7fc0a8c0@netlab.cs.ecnu.edu.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060930021650.49281.qmail@web81913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <006c01c6e45f$22adf650$7fc0a8c0@netlab.cs.ecnu.edu.cn> X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: df1883a27a831c1ea5e8cfe5eb3ad38e Cc: Mario Mao , 6lowpan@ietf.org, David Culler , townsley@cisco.com X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 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(helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gbixi-0004L6-VS; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:26:22 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gbixi-0004L0-1Y for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:26:22 -0400 Received: from web81905.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.207.184]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gbixf-0000NQ-1o for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:26:22 -0400 Received: (qmail 43429 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Oct 2006 19:26:18 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=BLiCAEVShpWjbYwiT+FdYnCVOMD3GQU56+et9BNQR8t6joqkYukID3pSH/L+5sgw9li4lxbuvB1/9KrKPqvmJvEpVtMLZcm0ebFEVX8O7AINyKy85vys3RAbLSvlRZVv5R4+hoqfYnDhRT1LFk6nCXkPpsF/Px79sGpGou0xGgc= ; Message-ID: <20061022192618.43427.qmail@web81905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.14.130] by web81905.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:26:18 PDT Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:26:18 -0700 (PDT) From: gabriel montenegro Subject: Re: [6lowpan] Mesh Delivery Field To: Ki-Hyung Kim , Geoff Mulligan MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 1c0c3d540ad9f95212b1c2a9a2cc2595 Cc: Mario Mao , 6lowpan@ietf.org, David Culler , townsley@cisco.com X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1253404685==" Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org --===============1253404685== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-783081215-1161545178=:43068" --0-783081215-1161545178=:43068 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for coming forward and expressing your opinion on this. I don't know= if=0Awe have consensus (it's the WG chairs' job to judge that). But perhap= s we can move=0Aforward with the latest understanding based on recent excha= nges, as you suggested.=0AI will prepare a version to reflect this and subm= it. =0A=0AI encourage those involved in the discussion to express their opi= nion on that version=0Aso we can gauge if we're done with it as a WG or not= .=0A=0A-gabriel=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Ki-Hyung Kim =0ATo: Geoff Mulligan ; gabriel montene= gro =0ACc: David Culler ; Soohong Daniel Park ; Mario Mao ; 6lowpan@ietf.org; townsley@cisco.com=0ASent: Sunday, October 22, 2= 006 3:37:38 AM=0ASubject: Re: [6lowpan] Mesh Delivery Field=0A=0A=0AGeoff, = =0AI think we should move forward for "the next" stuff in San Diego.=0AI th= ink we have reached a concensus with regard to the mesh delivery field. =0A= Gabriel replied to all requests including the David's, Mario's, and Mine.= =0AI think the current format document is enough to contain the future flex= ibility which is mentioned by David.=0AAlso the allignment stuff of IP flow= label and traffic class could be handled by padding zero's right now witho= ut having any problem, as Gabriel replied.=0A =0AIsn's it enough for moving= forward at this stage?=0AGabriel, if there is anything we have missed, ple= ase let us know and discuss on line before next meeting.=0A =0AAs Mark ment= ioned, we are now spending too much time for shipping base deliverables.= =0AGeoff, please let us know what is the thing we have to do right now for = moving forward.=0A =0A=0A =0A>Daniel,=0A> There is no next. We cannot do a= nything new until we complete the two=0A>documents. We have completed the = problem statement and I feel that we=0A>have consensus on the document.=0A>= =0A>On the format document I do not feel we have reached consensus on how = to=0A>"fix" the mesh delivery field issue nor some of the significant point= s=0A>that David Culler brought up about diagnostics and future capabilities= . =0A>=0A>Folks, if we can't solve these on the list before the meeting I s= uspect=0A>that we will spend the entire hour on just trying to get consensu= s on=0A>this one document.=0A>=0A>Please every speak up on your thoughts ab= out the mesh delivery field and =0A>David Culler's email.=0A>=0A>Speak now = or nothing new at the next ietf!=0A=0A =0AOn 9/30/06, Mario Mao wrote: =0A=EF=BB=BF =0AHi Gabriel,=0A =0AThanks for you feedback.= =0A =0AAs I mentioned before, the way to combining the Traffic Class and Fl= ow Label with Version field just is a workaround we used temporarily. Also,= the same method is used to solve the UDP compression alignment problem, th= at is, only compress the port field when both source and destination ports = could be compressed. =0A =0AClearly, my workaround is somewhat ugly and not= reasonable, but it do make the implementation more easily. In fact, we do = wait for new draft to clarify this alignment problem. For personal opinion,= it is a good idea to pad bits till all compression fininshed. However, I t= hink we should pay caution to the facility for implementation. I hope we ca= n get conclusion in the next version, thanks. =0A =0ABest Regards,=0A =0AMa= rio Mao=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: gabriel montenegro =0ATo: K= i-Hyung Kim =0ACc: David Culler ; Geoff Mulligan ; Soohong Daniel Park ; 6l= owpan@ietf.org ; Mario Mao =0ASent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:16 AM= =0ASubject: Re: [6lowpan] Mesh Delivery Field=0A=0A =0AKi-Hyung,=0A =0AYou = asked: "So, what is final look of the mesh delivery field?"=0A =0AAs per Ma= rio's suggestion, we'd use one of the 5 reserved bits to signal if the=0Abc= ast/mcast mesh delivery format is being used, and we'd call it the 'B' bit.= =0ASo no change to the mesh delivery fields is required. Since the reserved= bits=0Aare common to all three lowpan header formats, the 'B' bit would ap= ply to all=0Athree. =0A =0AMario also had a comment on how the header compr= ession forces alignment to not=0Afall on octet boundaries:=0AAt last, I fin= d some problem when impliment IPv6 header compression. Please note Traffic = Class and Flow Label bit in HC1. If we don't compress the two field, 28 bit= s (that is three and half bytes) are sent. However, how to send the half by= te? As I know, most hardware could only transmit data in unit of BYTE. Shou= ld we need 4 bits pending data? The workdaround we used is combining the Tr= affic Class and Flow Label with Version field. So, the Traffic Class and Fl= ow Label bit becomes Version, Traffic Class and Flow Label bit. Please see = following as detail.=0A =0AVersion, Traffic Class and Flow Label (bit 4):= =0A0: not compressed, full 4 bits for Version, 8 bits for Traffic Class and= 20 bits for Flow Label are sent =0A1: Traffic Class and Flow Label are zer= o=0AWhat do people think of that? I'd rather not do that because=0A =0A 1= . why send a version field if the version is already known (i.e., IPv6)?=0A= 2. this only fixes the alignment as far as the IPv6 header is concerned,= but=0A there are more headers probably following, and those could als= o have =0A alignment issues.=0A =0AFor example, we also have an issue = with UDP header compression (the only=0Aheader compression scheme currently= defined in addition to IPv6 header):=0A =0A UDP source port (bit 0):= =0A 0: Not compressed, carried "in-line" ( Section 10.3.2)=0A = 1: Compressed to 4 bits. The actual 16-bit source port is=0A = obtained by calculating: P + short_port value. P is a=0A prede= termined port number with value TBD. The short_port is =0A expr= essed as a 4-bit value which is carried "in-line"=0A ( Section 1= 0.3.2)=0A=0A UDP destination port (bit 1):=0A 0: Not compresse= d, carried "in-line" ( Section 10.3.2)=0A 1: Compressed to 4 bits. = The actual 16-bit destination port is=0A obtained by calculatin= g: P + short_port value. P is a=0A predetermined port number wi= th value TBD. The short_port is =0A expressed as a 4-bit value = which is carried "in-line"=0A ( Section 10.3.2)=0A =0A=0ABecause= of the above, it seems quite possible that one would end up with 4 bits=0A= for either the UDP source or destination. In such a case, the misalignment = in the=0AIPv6 header could be offset by the misalignment in the UDP header = compression, =0Aand we'd end up aligned on an octet boundary. Of course, if= one uses the funky=0A4-bit port compression for both source and destinatio= n then one wouldn't offset=0Athe previous misalignment. No way to know, so = perhaps one should wait until the=0Aentire header is laid out to figure out= if any padding with zero bits is to=0Abe done.=0A =0ASo perhaps what we ca= n do is to add text to the effect that one packs the entire=0Aheader and th= en pads as appropriate to align to an octet boundary. Does this =0Asound re= asonable?=0A =0Athanks for any comments,=0A =0A-gabriel=0A=0A=0A=0A-- =0AKi= -Hyung Kim (=EA=B9=80=EA=B8=B0=ED=98=95, =EF=A4=8A=E8=B5=B7=E4=BA=A8)=0AAss= ociate Professor =0ADivision of Information and Computer Eng., Ajou Univers= ity, Suwon, Korea 442-749=0ATel: +82-31-219-2433, Cel: +82-17-760-2551, Fa= x: +82-31-219-2433 http://www.6lowpan.org --0-783081215-1161545178=:43068 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for coming forward and expressing your opini= on on this. I don't know if
=0A
we have consensus (it's the WG= chairs' job to judge that). But perhaps we can move
=0A
forwa= rd with the latest understanding based on recent exchanges, as you suggeste= d.
=0A
I will prepare a version to reflect this and submit. =0A
 
=0A
I encourage those involved in the d= iscussion to express their opinion on that version
=0A
so we c= an gauge if we're done with it as a WG or not.
=0A
 =0A
-gabriel

=0A
----- Original Message ----=
From: Ki-Hyung Kim <kkim86@gmail.com>
To: Geoff Mulligan <g= eoff@mulligan.com>; gabriel montenegro <gabriel_montenegro_2000@yahoo= .com>
Cc: David Culler <david.culler@gmail.com>; Soohong Daniel= Park <soohongp@gmail.com>; Mario Mao <mariomao@gmail.com>; 6lo= wpan@ietf.org; townsley@cisco.com
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 3:37:38= AM
Subject: Re: [6lowpan] Mesh Delivery Field

=0A
Geoff, =0A
I think we should move forward for "the next" stuff in= San Diego.
=0A
I think we have reached a concensus with regard to=  the mesh delivery field.
=0A
Gabriel replied to all request= s including the David's, Mario's, and Mine.
=0A
I think the curren= t format document is enough to contain the future flexibility which is= mentioned by David.
=0A
Also the allignment stuff of IP flow= label and traffic class could be handled by padding zero's right now = without having any problem, as Gabriel replied.
=0A
 
= =0A
Isn's it enough for moving forward at this stage?
=0A
Gabr= iel, if there is anything we have missed, please let us know and discuss on= line before next meeting.
=0A
 
=0A
As Mark mention= ed, we are now spending too much time for shipping  base deliverables.=
=0A
Geoff, please let us know what is the thing we have to do rig= ht now for moving forward.
=0A
 
=0A

 =0A
>Daniel,
> There is no next.  We cannot do anyt= hing new until we complete the two
>documents.  We have complete= d the problem statement and I feel that we
>have consensus on the doc= ument.
>
>On the format document I do not feel we have reached= consensus on how to
>"fix" the mesh delivery field issue nor some of= the significant points
>that David Culler brought up about diagnosti= cs and future capabilities.
>
>Folks, if we can't solve these = on the list before the meeting I suspect
>that we will spend the enti= re hour on just trying to get consensus on
>this one document.
>= ;
>Please every speak up on your thoughts about the mesh delivery fie= ld and
>David Culler's email.
>
>Speak now or nothing ne= w at the next ietf!
=0A

 
=0A
On 9/30/06, Mario Mao <mariomao@gmai= l.com> wrote: =0A
=EF= =BB=BF =0A
=0A
=0A
= Hi Gabriel,
=0A
 =0A
Thanks for you feedback.=0A
 
=0A
As I mentioned before, the way to combining the Traffic C= lass and Flow Label with Version field just is a workaround we used tempora= rily. Also, the same method is used to solve the UDP compression = alignment problem, that is, only compress the port field when both&nbs= p;source and destination ports could be compressed.
=0A
 
=0A
Clearly, my workaround is somewhat ugly and not reasonable, but it do= make the implementation more easily. In fact, we do wait for new draft to = clarify this alignment problem. For personal opinion, it is a good idea to = pad bits till all compression fininshed. However, I think we should pay cau= tion to the facility for implementation. I hope we can get conclusion in th= e next version, thanks.
=0A
 
=0A
Best Regards,=0A
 
=0A
Mario Mao
=0A
=0A
--= --- Original Message -----
=0A=0A= =0A=0A
Sent: Saturday, Septemb= er 30, 2006 10:16 AM
=0A
Subject: Re: [6lowpan] Mesh Delive= ry Field
=0A

 
=0A
=0A
=0A
Ki-Hyung,
=0A
&nbs= p;
=0A
You asked: "So, what is final look of the mesh delivery= field?"
=0A
 
=0A
As per Mario's suggestion= , we'd use one of the 5 reserved bits to signal if the
=0A
b= cast/mcast mesh delivery format is being used, and we'd call it t= he 'B' bit.
=0A
So no change to the mesh delivery fields is re= quired. Since the reserved bits
=0A
are common to all three lo= wpan header formats, the 'B' bit would apply to all
=0A
three.=
 
=0A
Mario also had a comment on how the header com= pression forces alignment to not
=0A
fall on octet boundaries:=
=0A
=0A
At last, I find some problem when impliment IPv6 = header compression. Please note Traffic Class and Flow Label bit in HC1. If= we don't compress the two field, 28 bits (that is three and half byte= s) are sent. However, how to send the half byte? As I know, most hardware c= ould only transmit data in unit of BYTE. Should we need 4 bits pending= data? The workdaround we used is combining the Traffic Class and Flow= Label with Version field. So, the Traffic Class and Flow Label bit becomes= Version, Traffic Class and Flow Label bit. Please see following as detail.
=0A
 
=0A
Version, Traffic Class and Flow Label (bit 4):
0: not= compressed, full 4 bits for Version, 8 bits for Traffic Class and 20 bits = for Flow Label are sent
1: Traffic Class and Flow= Label are zero
=0A
W= hat do people think of that? I'd rather not do that because
=0A
   1. why send a version field if the v= ersion is already known (i.e., IPv6)?
=0A
   2. this= only fixes the alignment as far as the IPv6 header is concerned, but
= =0A
      there are more headers prob= ably following, and those could also have
=0A
  &nb= sp;   alignment issues.
=0A
 
=0AFor example, we also have an issue with UDP header compression (the on= ly
=0A
header compression scheme currently defined in addition= to IPv6 header):
=0A
 
=0A
  &nbs= p;   UDP source port (bit 0):
     &n= bsp;   0: Not compressed, carried "in-line" ( Section 10.3.2)
     &n= bsp;   1: Compressed to 4 bits.  The actual 16-bit source po= rt is
           = obtained by calculating: P + short_port value.  P is a
  = ;          predetermined port = number with value TBD.  The short_port is
    =         expressed as a 4-bit value which= is carried "in-line"
        &n= bsp;   ( Section 10.3.2)

 &nbs= p;    UDP destination port (bit 1):
   &nb= sp;     0: Not compressed, carried "in-line" ( Section 10.3.2)
   &= nbsp;     1: Compressed to 4 bits.  The actual 16-= bit destination port is
        =     obtained by calculating: P + short_port value.  P i= s a
            p= redetermined port number with value TBD.  The short_port is
 =            expressed as a= 4-bit value which is carried "in-line"
          &= nbsp; ( Section 10.3.2)
 = ;
=0A

Because of the above, it seems quite possible that o= ne would end up with 4 bits
=0A
for either the UDP source or d= estination. In such a case, the misalignment in the
=0A
IPv6 h= eader could be offset by the misalignment in the UDP header compression, =0A
and we'd end up aligned on an octet boundary. Of course, if= one uses the funky
=0A
4-bit port compression for both source= and destination then one wouldn't offset
=0A
the previous mis= alignment. No way to know, so perhaps one should wait until the
=0Aentire header is laid out to figure out if any padding with zero bits= is to
=0A
be done.
=0A
 
=0A
S= o perhaps what we can do is to add text to the effect that one packs the en= tire
=0A
header and then pads as appropriate to align to an oc= tet boundary. Does this
=0A
sound reasonable?
=0A
thanks for any comments,
=0A
 <= /DIV>=0A
-gabriel



--
Ki-Hyung Kim (=EA=B9=80=EA=B8= =B0=ED=98=95, =EF=A4=8A=E8=B5=B7=E4=BA=A8)
Associate Professor
Divis= ion of Information and Computer Eng., Ajou University, Suwon, Korea 442-749=
Tel: +82-31-219-2433, Cel: +82-17-760-2551,  Fax: +82-31-219-= 2433 htt= p://www.6lowpan.org
=0A

--0-783081215-1161545178=:43068-- --===============1253404685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan --===============1253404685==-- From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 22 15:52:45 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbjN9-000262-GF; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:52:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbjN8-00021q-9A for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:52:38 -0400 Received: from agp.stanford.edu ([171.67.73.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbjN7-0004JJ-0G for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:52:38 -0400 Received: from cs-smtp-3.stanford.edu ([172.24.64.17] helo=agp.Stanford.EDU) by agp.stanford.edu with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.43) id 1GbjN1-0000gq-E3; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:52:31 -0700 Received: from dnab422341.stanford.edu ([171.66.35.65]) by cs-smtp-3.Stanford.EDU with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1GbjMz-000749-IF; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:52:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20061022192618.43427.qmail@web81905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061022192618.43427.qmail@web81905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Philip Levis Subject: Re: [6lowpan] Mesh Delivery Field Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:52:34 -0700 To: gabriel montenegro X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Spam-Score: -104.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cs-csdcf (2005-06-05) on cs-smtp-3.Stanford.EDU X-Scan-Signature: f219e97bb238ccbb8ed40879dafdba3c X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: Mario Mao , David Culler , townsley@cisco.com, 6lowpan@ietf.org X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org On Oct 22, 2006, at 12:26 PM, gabriel montenegro wrote: > Thanks for coming forward and expressing your opinion on this. I > don't know if > we have consensus (it's the WG chairs' job to judge that). But > perhaps we can move > forward with the latest understanding based on recent exchanges, as > you suggested. > I will prepare a version to reflect this and submit. > > I encourage those involved in the discussion to express their > opinion on that version > so we can gauge if we're done with it as a WG or not. I think that the approach of making the first 16 bits the same on all three header formats is a good idea. At the very least, it simplifies protocol processing, reducing code size and complexity. I am unsure whether the five bits will be sufficient. However, we are likely to only know this from practice, rather than idle postulation. I think David raised this point when he asked active developers whether they have found it sufficient. Even with these reservations, though, I think it is OK to be standards track. It is common for standards track RFCs to have subsequent versions that obsolete earlier ones, based on experience and use. Phil _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 26 10:22:00 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd67H-0000zz-JW; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:21:55 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd67G-0000wt-D8 for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:21:54 -0400 Received: from agp.stanford.edu ([171.67.73.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd67B-0002ya-23 for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:21:54 -0400 Received: from cs-smtp-1.stanford.edu ([172.24.64.20] helo=agp.Stanford.EDU) by agp.stanford.edu with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.43) id 1Gd67A-0002qQ-EG for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:21:48 -0700 Received: from c-71-198-71-178.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([71.198.71.178] helo=[192.168.2.101]) by cs-smtp-1.Stanford.EDU with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Gd678-0006oK-GV for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:21:48 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2001CE40-7D29-4331-A418-CBE64D611652@cs.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: 6lowpan@ietf.org From: Philip Levis Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:21:52 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cs-csdcf (2005-06-05) on cs-smtp-1.Stanford.EDU X-Scan-Signature: 980022258218d8e0da9e8fd80fb6777b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Subject: [6lowpan] 802.15.4 behavior X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org The discussions on this list led Kannan Srinivasan, one of the students working with me, to submit a paper to HotNets. It was just accepted. Given that the IETF is in two weeks, we probably won't have the camera-ready prepared by then, so the link below is for the submitted version. The title of the paper is "Some Implications of Low-Power Wireless to IP Routing." It examines the behavior of 802.15.4 using the ChipCon 2420 radio on common sensor node platforms. The four key observations are: o Links are predominantly bimodal for short packet bursts. o Sporadic traffic observes intermediate links, which are due to SNR variations. o There are ETX asymmetries, which are larger over longer time intervals. o Acknowledgement failures are correlated. I thought this community might find the paper helpful. It's 6 pages, so not a long read. http://csl.stanford.edu/~pal/pubs/hotnets-v-submit.pdf See you in San Diego... Phil _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 26 16:36:46 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdBN0-00027W-O8; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:58:30 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdBMu-00021s-2n for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:58:24 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdBFO-0007Gw-KG for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:50:38 -0400 Received: from ns4.neustar.com ([156.154.24.139]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdBFO-0005wd-6V for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:50:38 -0400 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C982AD26; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:50:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1GdBEt-0005JY-Kp; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:50:07 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:50:07 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Cc: 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org Subject: [6lowpan] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-6lowpan-format-05.txt X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 over Low power WPAN Working Group of the IETF. Title : Transmission of IPv6 Packets over IEEE 802.15.4 Networks Author(s) : G. Montenegro, N. Kushalnagar Filename : draft-ietf-6lowpan-format-05.txt Pages : 29 Date : 2006-10-26 This document describes the frame format for transmission of IPv6 packets and the method of forming IPv6 link-local addresses and statelessly autoconfigured addresses on IEEE 802.15.4 networks. Additional specifications include a simple header compression scheme using shared context and provisions for packet delivery in IEEE 802.15.4 meshes. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6lowpan-format-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-6lowpan-format-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6lowpan-format-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-26103941.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6lowpan-format-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-6lowpan-format-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-26103941.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan --NextPart-- From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 26 18:09:27 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdDLM-0003Dj-HZ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:04:56 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdDL9-0001UE-Fz for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:04:43 -0400 Received: from web81914.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.207.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdD9w-0005nB-5s for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:53:10 -0400 Received: (qmail 38832 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Oct 2006 21:53:07 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=icucIUXW7ahGHGtA2C3TNhaCY+kTFaPVbYRx95GV3Nax+ajmt1etwh8P5O40nZgt8XaDhMtbG//G+j6JGztX+Cdh0kfK9xgZhNqW7G7SCzywXIZ3kY4Xn/sv4Wdrr4I1AN4ZSi18TS3ttrF7nt2Mxz5mOO4l0qaWqbA78R0QmY8= ; Message-ID: <20061026215307.38830.qmail@web81914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.107.0.103] by web81914.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:53:07 PDT Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:53:07 -0700 (PDT) From: gabriel montenegro Subject: Re: [6lowpan] 802.15.4 behavior To: Philip Levis , 6lowpan@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: a0534e6179a1e260079328e8b03c7901 Cc: X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1130711854==" Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org --===============1130711854== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1858328180-1161899587=:38098" --0-1858328180-1161899587=:38098 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for sharing this work, Phil.=0AIs there anything in there that would= prompt you to suggest a change in the=0Abase format document? =0A=0AMost o= f the points raised seem particularly relevant=0Ato the design of the routi= ng protocols. As you know, the format document=0Adoes not do this, so I'm w= ondering how much (if anything) is relevant to it=0Aas opposed to the routi= ng specifications for lowpan (of which there are=0Aseveral drafts in existe= nce). One could add some text calling for better=0Afeedback from the link-l= ayer (as the paper recommends), but I cannot see=0Awhat difference this wou= ld make on the actual protocol, as in, "bits in the air".=0A=0AI noticed th= at the first point about links being bimodal leads to some text=0Ain the pa= per that points out a potential flaw in the current fragment reassembly=0Al= ogic.=0A=0AIn particular, your paper points out some issue with this text i= n the format document:=0A=0A If a link fragment is received that overlaps= another fragment as=0A identified above, the fragment(s) already accumul= ated in the=0A reassembly buffer SHALL be discarded. A fresh reassembly = may be=0A commenced with the most recently received link fragment. Fragm= ent=0A overlap is determined by the combination of datagram_offset from t= he=0A encapsulation header and "Frame Length" from the 802.15.4 PPDU pack= et=0A header.=0A=0AThe text in the paper mentions an issue with duplicate= fragments:=0A=0A ...if a system follows the 6lowpan requirements that a= n overlapping fragment=0A flush all other fragments, then imperfect dupl= icate suppression may cause a=0A receiver to flush fragments that were a= cknowledged at the data link layer.=0A=0AI believe there is some confusion = here. The intent is not for duplicate fragments to=0Acause a flush of all p= reviously received fragments. That case is actually not =0Amentioned explic= itly, but the sensible thing to do would be to simply ignore=0Athe duplicat= e fragments. These you can recognize by their datagram tags=0A(dgram_tag), = your header and the "Frame Length" from the 802.15.4 frame. =0A=0AThe *inte= nt* of the text is error-handling. If there is a non-duplicate fragment =0A= that has an overlap (not a dup) over previously received fragments, this is= an=0Aerror condition: this implies the sender laid out its IP datagram, sl= iced it into=0Afragments in two different ways and is sending you fragments= from those two =0Adifferent ways, using the same datagram_tag. Very confus= ing. =0A=0AThe normal occurrence is for the sender to cut the IP datagram i= n only one given way,=0Agive it a datagram_tag and send those fragments out= to the receiver. The receiver =0Awill either:=0A 1. receive fragments wi= th no overlap at all (they all cover different ranges in =0A the origi= nal IP datagram), or=0A 2. receive fragments which are duplicates (I gues= s one could call them "perfect =0A overlaps", hence the confusion abov= e?)=0A=0AI'm not sure how likely #2 is, but the format document certainly h= as no intention=0Ato mess with it.=0A=0AIs this clearer? Would you suggest = some text change to avoid this confusion?=0A=0Athanks in advance for your c= omments or clarifications.=0A=0A-gabriel=0A=0A----- Original Message ----= =0AFrom: Philip Levis =0ATo: 6lowpan@ietf.org=0ASent: = Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:21:52 AM=0ASubject: [6lowpan] 802.15.4 behavio= r=0A=0A=0AThe discussions on this list led Kannan Srinivasan, one of the = =0Astudents working with me, to submit a paper to HotNets. It was just =0A= accepted. Given that the IETF is in two weeks, we probably won't have =0At= he camera-ready prepared by then, so the link below is for the =0Asubmitte= d version. The title of the paper is "Some Implications of =0ALow-Power Wi= reless to IP Routing." It examines the behavior of =0A802.15.4 using the C= hipCon 2420 radio on common sensor node =0Aplatforms. The four key observa= tions are:=0A=0A o Links are predominantly bimodal for short packet bursts= .=0A o Sporadic traffic observes intermediate links, which are due to =0A= SNR variations.=0A o There are ETX asymmetries, which are larger over long= er time =0Aintervals.=0A o Acknowledgement failures are correlated.=0A=0A= I thought this community might find the paper helpful. It's 6 pages, =0Aso= not a long read.=0A=0Ahttp://csl.stanford.edu/~pal/pubs/hotnets-v-submit.p= df=0A=0ASee you in San Diego...=0A=0APhil=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________= _________________________=0A6lowpan mailing list=0A6lowpan@ietf.org=0Ahttps= ://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan --0-1858328180-1161899587=:38098 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for sharing this work, Phil.
=0A
base format document?
=0A
 
=0A=
Most of the points raised seem particularly relevant
=0A
to the design of the routing protocols. As you know, the format documen= t
=0A
does not do this, so I'm wondering how much (if anything= ) is relevant to it
=0A
as opposed to the routing specificatio= ns for lowpan (of which there are
=0A
several drafts in existe= nce). One could add some text calling for better
=0A
feedback = from the link-layer (as the paper recommends), but I cannot see
=0Awhat difference this would make on the actual protocol, as in, "bits = in the air".
=0A
 
=0A
I noticed that the fi= rst point about links being bimodal leads to some text
=0A
i= n the paper that points out a potential flaw in the current fragment reasse= mbly
=0A
logic.
=0A
 
=0A
In pa= rticular, your paper points out some issue with this text in the format doc= ument:
=0A
 
=0A
   If a link frag= ment is received that overlaps another fragment as
   identifi= ed above, the fragment(s) already accumulated in the
   reasse= mbly buffer SHALL be discarded.  A fresh reassembly may be
 &n= bsp; commenced with the most recently received link fragment.  Fragmen= t
   overlap is determined by the combination of datagram_offs= et from the
   encapsulation header and "Frame Length" from th= e 802.15.4 PPDU packet
   header.

The text in the paper= mentions an issue with duplicate fragments:
=0A
 
= =0A
    ...if a system follows the 6lowpan requireme= nts that an overlapping fragment
=0A
    flush = all other fragments, then imperfect duplicate suppression may cause a
= =0A
    receiver to flush fragments that were acknow= ledged at the data link layer.
=0A
 
=0A
I= believe there is some confusion here. The intent is not for duplicate frag= ments to
=0A
cause a flush of all previously received fragment= s. That case is actually not
=0A
mentioned explicitly, but th= e sensible thing to do would be to simply ignore
=0A
the dupli= cate fragments. These you can recognize by their datagram tags
=0A(dgram_tag), your header and the "Frame Length" from the 802.15.4= frame.
=0A
 
=0A
The *intent* of the text = is error-handling. If there is a non-duplicate fragment
=0A
t= hat has an overlap (not a dup) over previously received fragments, this is = an
=0A
error condition: this implies the sender laid out its I= P datagram, sliced it into
=0A
fragments in two different ways= and is sending you fragments from those two
=0A
different wa= ys, using the same datagram_tag. Very confusing.
=0A
 =0A
The normal occurrence is for the sender to cut the IP datag= ram in only one given way,
=0A
give it a datagram_tag and send= those fragments out to the receiver. The receiver
=0A
will e= ither:
=0A
   1. receive fragments with no over= lap at all (they all cover different ranges in
=0A
 &nbs= p;    the original IP datagram), or
=0A
 &= nbsp; 2. receive fragments which are duplicates (I guess one could cal= l them "perfect
=0A
      overl= aps", hence the confusion above?)
=0A
 
=0A
= I'm not sure how likely #2 is, but the format document certainly has no int= ention
=0A
to mess with it.
=0A
 
=0AIs this clearer? Would you suggest some text change to avoid this co= nfusion?
=0A
 
=0A
thanks in advance for you= r comments or clarifications.
=0A
 
=0A
-gab= riel
=0A
----- Original Message ----
From: Philip Levi= s <pal@cs.stanford.edu>
To: 6lowpan@ietf.org
Sent: Thursday, Oc= tober 26, 2006 7:21:52 AM
Subject: [6lowpan] 802.15.4 behavior

= =0A
The discussions on this list led Kannan Srinivasan, one of the = ; 
students working with me, to submit a paper to HotNets. It was j= ust  
accepted. Given that the IETF is in two weeks, we probab= ly won't have  
the camera-ready prepared by then, so the link= below is for the  
submitted version. The title of the paper = is "Some Implications of  
Low-Power Wireless to IP Routing." = It examines the behavior of  
802.15.4 using the ChipCon 2420 = radio on common sensor node  
platforms. The four key observat= ions are:

  o Links are predominantly bimodal for short pa= cket bursts.
  o Sporadic traffic observes intermediate links,= which are due to  
SNR variations.
  o There are= ETX asymmetries, which are larger over longer time  
interval= s.
  o Acknowledgement failures are correlated.

I thoug= ht this community might find the paper helpful. It's 6 pages,  
so no= t a long read.

http://csl.stanford.edu/~pal/pubs/hotnets-v-s= ubmit.pdf

See you in San Diego...

Phil



___= ____________________________________________
6lowpan mailing list
6lo= wpan@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan
=0A

--0-1858328180-1161899587=:38098-- --===============1130711854== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan --===============1130711854==-- From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 26 20:42:43 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdFnr-00052V-DZ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:42:31 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdFhf-00031e-D9 for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:36:07 -0400 Received: from agp.stanford.edu ([171.67.73.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdFZy-0000oJ-SV for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:28:13 -0400 Received: from cs-smtp-3.stanford.edu ([172.24.64.17] helo=agp.Stanford.EDU) by agp.stanford.edu with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.43) id 1GdFZy-0004mC-3c; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:28:10 -0700 Received: from bldmz-nat-161-214.berkeley.intel-research.net ([12.155.161.214] helo=[10.212.112.94]) by cs-smtp-3.Stanford.EDU with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1GdFZv-00055A-8C; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:28:09 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20061026215307.38830.qmail@web81914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061026215307.38830.qmail@web81914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9A1E13B4-5BA6-4408-AA77-1F13CF30DDC2@cs.stanford.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Philip Levis Subject: Re: [6lowpan] 802.15.4 behavior Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:28:13 -0700 To: gabriel montenegro X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Spam-Score: -4.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cs-csdcf (2005-06-05) on cs-smtp-3.Stanford.EDU X-Scan-Signature: 469cbda2c1b9342134459a8db56b3baa X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 Cc: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org On Oct 26, 2006, at 2:53 PM, gabriel montenegro wrote: > Thanks for sharing this work, Phil. > Is there anything in there that would prompt you to suggest a > change in the > base format document? > > Most of the points raised seem particularly relevant > to the design of the routing protocols. As you know, the format > document > does not do this, so I'm wondering how much (if anything) is > relevant to it > as opposed to the routing specifications for lowpan (of which there > are > several drafts in existence). One could add some text calling for > better > feedback from the link-layer (as the paper recommends), but I > cannot see > what difference this would make on the actual protocol, as in, > "bits in the air". > > I noticed that the first point about links being bimodal leads to > some text > in the paper that points out a potential flaw in the current > fragment reassembly > logic. > > In particular, your paper points out some issue with this text in > the format document: > > If a link fragment is received that overlaps another fragment as > identified above, the fragment(s) already accumulated in the > reassembly buffer SHALL be discarded. A fresh reassembly may be > commenced with the most recently received link fragment. Fragment > overlap is determined by the combination of datagram_offset from > the > encapsulation header and "Frame Length" from the 802.15.4 PPDU > packet > header. > > The text in the paper mentions an issue with duplicate fragments: > > ...if a system follows the 6lowpan requirements that an > overlapping fragment > flush all other fragments, then imperfect duplicate suppression > may cause a > receiver to flush fragments that were acknowledged at the data > link layer. > > I believe there is some confusion here. The intent is not for > duplicate fragments to > cause a flush of all previously received fragments. That case is > actually not > mentioned explicitly, but the sensible thing to do would be to > simply ignore > the duplicate fragments. These you can recognize by their datagram > tags > (dgram_tag), your header and the "Frame Length" from the 802.15.4 > frame. > > The *intent* of the text is error-handling. If there is a non- > duplicate fragment > that has an overlap (not a dup) over previously received fragments, > this is an > error condition: this implies the sender laid out its IP datagram, > sliced it into > fragments in two different ways and is sending you fragments from > those two > different ways, using the same datagram_tag. Very confusing. > > The normal occurrence is for the sender to cut the IP datagram in > only one given way, > give it a datagram_tag and send those fragments out to the > receiver. The receiver > will either: > 1. receive fragments with no overlap at all (they all cover > different ranges in > the original IP datagram), or > 2. receive fragments which are duplicates (I guess one could > call them "perfect > overlaps", hence the confusion above?) > > I'm not sure how likely #2 is, but the format document certainly > has no intention > to mess with it. The text refers to 2. Our reading of "overlap" included the degenerate case of what you call perfect overlap. Does that seem reasonable? As an aside, I assumed that besides error conditions, the draft was also considering problems such as encountered by TCP stacks (IIRC, some stacks discard the new payload, others use the new payload). While CRCs would likely makes this moot, it *is* an error condition and so you might as well preclude it. > > Is this clearer? Would you suggest some text change to avoid this > confusion? > I think just saying what you want (I think?) to say would be best, and distinguish the two cases. "If a link fragment is received that overlaps another fragment as identified above and differs in either the size or datagram_offset of the overlapped fragment..." Apologies for the terseness: it's a product of preparing the next release of TinyOS and so being a bit overwhelmed. See you in San Diego... Phil _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 27 00:59:37 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdJob-0001nB-RS; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:59:33 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdJoa-0001mq-4g for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:59:32 -0400 Received: from grab.coslabs.com ([199.233.92.34]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdJoY-0007o0-MH for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:59:32 -0400 Received: from x1.coslabs.com (x1.coslabs.com [199.233.92.20]) by grab.coslabs.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9R4xNw7007521; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:59:23 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: [6lowpan] 802.15.4 behavior From: Geoff Mulligan To: gabriel montenegro In-Reply-To: <20061026215307.38830.qmail@web81914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061026215307.38830.qmail@web81914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:59:20 -0600 Message-Id: <1161925160.5385.59.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21bf7a2f1643ae0bf20c1e010766eb78 Cc: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Gabriel, I'm wondering if the entire text around this should be eliminated and should the text about buffer handling? These are implementation details and might instead be left as an exercise for the implementer. Maybe the text around overlapping fragments should read: If an overlapping fragment is received and that fragment is not a duplicate, this should be considered an error. The implementation can determine what to do with the current fragment or the previously received fragments. geoff On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 14:53 -0700, gabriel montenegro wrote: > Thanks for sharing this work, Phil. > Is there anything in there that would prompt you to suggest a change > in the > base format document? > > Most of the points raised seem particularly relevant > to the design of the routing protocols. As you know, the format > document > does not do this, so I'm wondering how much (if anything) is relevant > to it > as opposed to the routing specifications for lowpan (of which there > are > several drafts in existence). One could add some text calling for > better > feedback from the link-layer (as the paper recommends), but I cannot > see > what difference this would make on the actual protocol, as in, "bits > in the air". > > I noticed that the first point about links being bimodal leads to some > text > in the paper that points out a potential flaw in the current fragment > reassembly > logic. > > In particular, your paper points out some issue with this text in the > format document: > > If a link fragment is received that overlaps another fragment as > identified above, the fragment(s) already accumulated in the > reassembly buffer SHALL be discarded. A fresh reassembly may be > commenced with the most recently received link fragment. Fragment > overlap is determined by the combination of datagram_offset from > the > encapsulation header and "Frame Length" from the 802.15.4 PPDU > packet > header. > > The text in the paper mentions an issue with duplicate fragments: > > ...if a system follows the 6lowpan requirements that an > overlapping fragment > flush all other fragments, then imperfect duplicate suppression > may cause a > receiver to flush fragments that were acknowledged at the data > link layer. > > I believe there is some confusion here. The intent is not for > duplicate fragments to > cause a flush of all previously received fragments. That case is > actually not > mentioned explicitly, but the sensible thing to do would be to simply > ignore > the duplicate fragments. These you can recognize by their datagram > tags > (dgram_tag), your header and the "Frame Length" from the 802.15.4 > frame. > > The *intent* of the text is error-handling. If there is a > non-duplicate fragment > that has an overlap (not a dup) over previously received fragments, > this is an > error condition: this implies the sender laid out its IP datagram, > sliced it into > fragments in two different ways and is sending you fragments from > those two > different ways, using the same datagram_tag. Very confusing. > > The normal occurrence is for the sender to cut the IP datagram in only > one given way, > give it a datagram_tag and send those fragments out to the receiver. > The receiver > will either: > 1. receive fragments with no overlap at all (they all cover > different ranges in > the original IP datagram), or > 2. receive fragments which are duplicates (I guess one could call > them "perfect > overlaps", hence the confusion above?) > > I'm not sure how likely #2 is, but the format document certainly has > no intention > to mess with it. > > Is this clearer? Would you suggest some text change to avoid this > confusion? > > thanks in advance for your comments or clarifications. > > -gabriel > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Philip Levis > To: 6lowpan@ietf.org > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:21:52 AM > Subject: [6lowpan] 802.15.4 behavior > > The discussions on this list led Kannan Srinivasan, one of the > students working with me, to submit a paper to HotNets. It was just > accepted. Given that the IETF is in two weeks, we probably won't > have > the camera-ready prepared by then, so the link below is for the > submitted version. The title of the paper is "Some Implications of > Low-Power Wireless to IP Routing." It examines the behavior of > 802.15.4 using the ChipCon 2420 radio on common sensor node > platforms. The four key observations are: > > o Links are predominantly bimodal for short packet bursts. > o Sporadic traffic observes intermediate links, which are due to > SNR variations. > o There are ETX asymmetries, which are larger over longer time > intervals. > o Acknowledgement failures are correlated. > > I thought this community might find the paper helpful. It's 6 pages, > so not a long read. > > http://csl.stanford.edu/~pal/pubs/hotnets-v-submit.pdf > > See you in San Diego... > > Phil > > > > _______________________________________________ > 6lowpan mailing list > 6lowpan@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan > > > _______________________________________________ > 6lowpan mailing list > 6lowpan@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 27 02:31:07 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdLF9-0007df-Cp; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:31:03 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdLF8-0007d5-Ek for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:31:02 -0400 Received: from grab.coslabs.com ([199.233.92.34]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdLF6-0005Io-23 for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:31:02 -0400 Received: from x1.coslabs.com (x1.coslabs.com [199.233.92.20]) by grab.coslabs.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9R6UvZ9007968 for <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:30:57 -0600 (MDT) From: Geoff Mulligan To: 6lowpan <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:30:55 -0600 Message-Id: <1161930655.5385.119.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Cc: Subject: [6lowpan] comments on draft 5 X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Gabriel, First some editorial comments: Section 3 Paragraph 1 Line 12 - occurred should be occurring Section 5.1 Paragraph on datagram_size (page 8): I think that the NOTE: should read: While it may appear that this field does not need to be in every packet, as one could send it with the first fragment and elide it subsequently, it is included it in every link fragment to ease the task of reassembly in the event that a second (or subsequent) link fragment arrives before the first. ... Section 5.2: Possible rewrite: The recipient of link fragments SHALL use (1) ... I think that the next paragraph in the text, the paragraph starting with "Upon receipt" should be removed since this is an implementation choice. For the same reason and and per the discussion with Phil, I think that the next paragraph (starting with "If a link fragment") should also be removed. And for the same reason, this is an implementation detail, the paragraph starting with "Upon detection of a IEEE" should be removed unless there is a specific reason for the 15 second time out - where did 15 seconds come from? Section 6: Paragraph 2 Line 6: I'm not sure that the phrase "concatenated with" is clear as to the ordering. I'm not sure that "concatenated to" is precise (as used in the previous sentence). Section 10.1: I think that it should be written as: It is possible to use header compression even in advance of setting up the customary state. The following common IPv6 header... Appendix A Paragraph 1 line 18: frament should be fragment. Questions: Section 5.1 Paragraph on datagram_size (page 8): The datagram_size is set to 40 octets more than the Payload Length value in the IPv6 header, but if the IPv6 header is compressed doesn't this lead to the wrong datagram size calculation? Section 5.1 Encapsulation header format (meta question): if we were to allow multiple mesh protocols under this adaptation layer do we think that this should be carried in the prot_type field or should we add or define the "rsv" field for the mesh network type, though 3 bits would probably suffice or should we add one more byte. I think that this is partially what David was asking about. Having this flexibility might be especially important to allow for diagnosing the mesh layer. Section 9 about Multicast Address mapping: Does this preclude a network from using 64-bit addressing for multicasting? It seems to indicate that you must use 16-bit addresses for multicast addresses. Section 10.2 in the Length (bit 2) paragraph: can we really compute the udp length field from the possibly compressed frame length field or the datagram_size field in a fragment header? Is this a simple calculation? Section 11 - It doesn't look like we fixed the problem with the sequence number before the destination address? Did I miss a different solution? _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 27 10:07:26 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdSMk-0001eI-3s; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:07:22 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdSMj-0001eC-BF for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:07:21 -0400 Received: from s4.cableone.net ([24.116.0.230]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdSMe-0008WO-N2 for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:07:21 -0400 Received: from RonStrich (unverified [67.60.0.96]) by S4.cableone.net (CableOne SMTP Service S4) with ESMTP id 79869791 for <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:07:14 -0700 From: "Ron Strich" To: "'6lowpan'" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:07:09 -0500 Message-ID: <002801c6f9d1$33c16030$6501a8c0@RonStrich> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C6F9A7.4AEB5830" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <1161930655.5385.119.camel@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-Index: Acb5kXxxijI6fPx+QwimjYESTyCWbAALya4g X-SpamDetect: **: 2.900000 NakedCR=0.2,Aspam=2.7 X-NakedCr: Body contained naked cr characters X-IP-stats: Incoming Last 0, First 22, in=29, out=0, spam=0 X-External-IP: 67.60.0.96 X-Abuse-Info: Send abuse complaints to abuse@cableone.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e16ce0269ccb2f59707d16700199d13b Cc: Subject: [6lowpan] 6lowpan Architecture Questions X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C6F9A7.4AEB5830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. Many sensor and control devices will be too small to support a full mesh/ip adaptation implementation. Some of these devices may be as small as 4K of flash and 100s of bytes of RAM and may only be used in a point to point (P2P), simple star, or very simple mesh implementation (please see the attached pdf drawing). Incorporation of these very small devices, I believe, is important to the broad adoption of 6lowpan. Should we consider how to support these extremely limited devices? Should we make it easy for these simple protocol implementations at this level to adapt to 6lowpan? If we want to include these small devices, should we consider a more constrained design (limited payload, P2P/star only) that would simplify the adaptation layer? 2. How will the group evaluate what mesh, P2P or star protocols should be supported? As David pointed out, we may not be allowing for future capabilities in the current structure of the adaptation layer should we want to support multiple types of L2 protocols. 3. Related to the pending mesh protocol evaluation, is the evaluation of any functionality related to the "cost" of those technical choices in terms of power, code size, complexity, RAM, instructions executed, etc? 4. As was mentioned on the list a while ago, neither the Problem Statement nor the Format documents discuss the overall 6LoWPAN architecture. As we move forward with our next working group items, shouldn't we create a document to describe the high level architecture which might well encompass the criteria for evaluation of the protocols and costs mentioned above? 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------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C6F9A7.4AEB5830-- From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 27 11:31:16 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdTfv-0007J1-T9; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:31:15 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdTfu-0007G6-H1 for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:31:14 -0400 Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de ([2001:638:708:30c9:209:3dff:fe00:7136] helo=informatik.uni-bremen.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GdTfr-000661-S9 for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:31:14 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (maildrop [134.102.201.19]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.13.4/8.13.2) with ESMTP id k9RFV7AA008680; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:31:07 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <002801c6f9d1$33c16030$6501a8c0@RonStrich> References: <002801c6f9d1$33c16030$6501a8c0@RonStrich> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [6lowpan] 6lowpan Architecture Questions Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:31:07 +0200 To: "Ron Strich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: Carsten Bormann , '6lowpan' <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org> X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Ron, good input. Let me just pick up on one of these points: The IETF is quite wary about "architecture" documents. (The OSI reference model is the textbook example here: ISO did an architecture ["reference model"], and then, only when defining the protocols, found out that the architecture didn't make sense. But it was too late to fix the architecture, so the bad layers limped on until OSI finally died. The really funny thing, of course, is that, in 2006, people are *still* citing the layers of the defunct reference model...) In the IETF, we tend to standardize functional components and leave it to the market how to build "architectures" out of these. Of course, that is not always possible. Also, it may be necessary to have an (really: one or more) architectures in mind when building components. So, I'd welcome discussion of architecture(s). I'm just not sure we actually want to "standardize" them. Gruesse, Carsten _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 27 23:35:00 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gdey7-0001T8-NQ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:34:47 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gdey7-0001Pq-1S for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:34:47 -0400 Received: from agp.stanford.edu ([171.67.73.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Gdey5-0008DK-Or for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:34:47 -0400 Received: from cs-smtp-3.stanford.edu ([172.24.64.17] helo=agp.Stanford.EDU) by agp.stanford.edu with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.43) id 1GdUSt-0004o1-Ih; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:21:51 -0700 Received: from dnab423224.stanford.edu ([171.66.50.36]) by cs-smtp-3.Stanford.EDU with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1GdUDq-0002NH-5S; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:06:20 -0700 In-Reply-To: <1161930655.5385.119.camel@localhost> References: <1161930655.5385.119.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Philip Levis Subject: Re: [6lowpan] comments on draft 5 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:00:49 -0700 To: Geoff Mulligan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Spam-Score: -104.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-cs-csdcf (2005-06-05) on cs-smtp-3.Stanford.EDU X-Scan-Signature: c34b9e52c8715c7e60548704bd659ba6 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: 6lowpan <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org> X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org On Oct 26, 2006, at 11:30 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: > > For the same reason and and per the discussion with Phil, I think that > the next paragraph (starting with "If a link fragment") should also be > removed. I'd differ on this one; it's good to describe what to do in error conditions without constraining the implementation unduly. Otherwise adversaries can profile your device based on its responses. That being said, it's really not a big deal, and so if nobody else feels strongly in this direction I have no objections to removing the paragraph. Phil _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 29 23:42:06 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeOyM-0005yq-CS; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 23:42:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeOy1-0005Ew-MG for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 23:41:45 -0500 Received: from mailout2.samsung.com ([203.254.224.25]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeOxy-0008F3-Pi for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 23:41:45 -0500 Received: from ep_mmp2 (mailout2.samsung.com [203.254.224.25]) by mailout2.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J7X009RZMDGDR@mailout2.samsung.com> for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:41:41 +0900 (KST) Received: from your655e9d6f61 ([168.219.198.109]) by mmp2.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.17 (built Jun 23 2003)) with ESMTPA id <0J7X00MUJMDGYA@mmp2.samsung.com> for 6lowpan@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:41:40 +0900 (KST) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:41:11 +0900 From: Soohong Daniel Park Subject: Re: [6lowpan] 6lowpan Architecture Questions To: Carsten Bormann , Ron Strich Message-id: <006901c6fbdd$a05a3b50$6dc6dba8@your655e9d6f61> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <002801c6f9d1$33c16030$6501a8c0@RonStrich> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Cc: Carsten Bormann , '6lowpan' <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org> X-BeenThere: 6lowpan@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Working group discussion for IPv6 over LowPan networks <6lowpan.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Carsten, I think it's a good concern especially from the implementation prespective. Even it seems not scope of 6lowpan standardization itself, I think we can input this concern to the relevant place, v6ops (IPv6 operations) working group in conjunciton with 6lowpan coordination in my mind. Anyhow, I'd encourage Ron to continue this thread on this list if we don't see any critical objection. Daniel (Soohong Daniel Park) Mobile Convergence Laboratory, SAMSUNG Electronics. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carsten Bormann" To: "Ron Strich" Cc: "Carsten Bormann" ; "'6lowpan'" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 12:31 AM Subject: Re: [6lowpan] 6lowpan Architecture Questions > Ron, > > good input. > > Let me just pick up on one of these points: > > The IETF is quite wary about "architecture" documents. > > (The OSI reference model is the textbook example here: > ISO did an architecture ["reference model"], and then, only when > defining the protocols, found out that the architecture didn't make > sense. > But it was too late to fix the architecture, so the bad layers limped > on until OSI finally died. > The really funny thing, of course, is that, in 2006, people are > *still* citing the layers of the defunct reference model...) > > In the IETF, we tend to standardize functional components and leave > it to the market how to build "architectures" out of these. > Of course, that is not always possible. > Also, it may be necessary to have an (really: one or more) > architectures in mind when building components. > > So, I'd welcome discussion of architecture(s). I'm just not sure we > actually want to "standardize" them. > > Gruesse, Carsten > > > _______________________________________________ > 6lowpan mailing list > 6lowpan@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan > > _______________________________________________ 6lowpan mailing list 6lowpan@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lowpan From 6lowpan-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 30 01:53:32 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeR1X-00058H-V3; Mon, 30 Oct 2006 01:53:31 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeQvG-0006Wx-Hj for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2006 01:47:02 -0500 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.239]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GeQvB-0000kF-59 for 6lowpan@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2006 01:47:02 -0500 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t4so1355513wxc for <6lowpan@ietf.org>; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 22:46:56 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:to:subject:date:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:x-mimeole:from; b=Lx848QHWLdMPaWQQs6JvSMfPR37InxcWWVjsqqY57vS4O1NTv0v3QM+eSMNEcgRsqxecp7QcEaG7cxtfLynIZ3mF/oDAFtzoH6I0TCUxhCktOA0oUu/dDrwvtpixf8YmtXn8dIKSADl3h122hiLNsPAyRJN98N7JqdAvKcwLOno= Received: by 10.70.68.11 with SMTP id q11mr4275369wxa; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 22:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from Maoer ( [211.144.102.60]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25sm4234855wra.2006.10.29.22.46.52; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 22:46:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <015501c6fbef$5582aa60$7fc0a8c0@netlab.cs.ecnu.edu.cn> To: <6lowpan@ietf.org> Subject: [6LoWPAN] Router Dynamic Advertisement Algorithm (RDA) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 14:47:52 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft 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