Subject: [72attendees] New mailing list to discuss IETF Food requirements

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:08:36 -0500

Hi all,

Dan Wing has helped me setup a mailing list to discuss the dietary
requirements for a group of folks at IETF meetings - triggered, of
course, by the many threads of discussion on this topic at IETF-72, but
something that has caused problems for many of us over many years of
IETF meetings - even to the point that the only thing that some folks
could consume at the meeting location was beer - at least the Guinness
had lots of B vitamins and the gluten-free cider had fruit! 

Here's the basic overview and objective for the list:

"This list is for IETF participants that have either medical, religious
or ethical dietary requirements - e.g., celiac/gluten intolerance,
Kosher, Halal, vegetarian/vegan, food allergies, diabetic, other special
diets, etc.. The list is intended to provide a forum for discussion so
that we can understand one another's requirements and plan ahead for
IETF meetings by both preparing ourselves and the meeting planners."

Here's how you can subscribe:
https://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-food

Hopefully, this will keep much of the discussion off the main meeting
lists, although I will post a reminder before and at the meeting for
folks that might not be aware.  We certainly welcome anyone to subscribe
and my guess (based on the population on average) is that at least 10%
of us (really should be 30%, but many folks don't know about their
issues yet :)  have food restrictions of some sort.   Folks that are
just interested in healthy eating might also want to subscribe,  as the
common food denominator for most of these diets is a fairly broad range
of whole foods with known ingredients - i.e., without "mystery"
additives or processing.  

Regards,
Mary H. Barnes

_______________________________________________
72attendees mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/72attendees

---

From: "Eric Gray" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:47:39 -0500

Can we all subscribe, say "Cookies" and then unsubscribe?

--
Eric Gray
Principal Engineer
Ericsson 

________________________________

	From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Mary Barnes
	Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 1:09 PM
	To: [email-masked]
	Subject: [72attendees] New mailing list to discuss IETF Food
requirements

	Hi all, 

	Dan Wing has helped me setup a mailing list to discuss the
dietary requirements for a group of folks at IETF meetings - triggered,
of course, by the many threads of discussion on this topic at IETF-72,
but something that has caused problems for many of us over many years of
IETF meetings - even to the point that the only thing that some folks
could consume at the meeting location was beer - at least the Guinness
had lots of B vitamins and the gluten-free cider had fruit! 

	"This list is for IETF participants that have either medical,
religious or ethical dietary requirements - e.g., celiac/gluten
intolerance, Kosher, Halal, vegetarian/vegan, food allergies, diabetic,
other special diets, etc.. The list is intended to provide a forum for
discussion so that we can understand one another's requirements and plan
ahead for IETF meetings by both preparing ourselves and the meeting
planners."

	Here's how you can subscribe: 
	https://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-food
<https://www.employees.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-food>  

	Hopefully, this will keep much of the discussion off the main
meeting lists, although I will post a reminder before and at the meeting
for folks that might not be aware.  We certainly welcome anyone to
subscribe and my guess (based on the population on average) is that at
least 10% of us (really should be 30%, but many folks don't know about
their issues yet :)  have food restrictions of some sort.   Folks that
are just interested in healthy eating might also want to subscribe,  as
the common food denominator for most of these diets is a fairly broad
range of whole foods with known ingredients - i.e., without "mystery"
additives or processing.  

	Regards, 
	Mary H. Barnes

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:57:14 -0400

No.
You'll have to chew and swallow every reply.
Ray

On Aug 22, 2008, at 1:47 PM, Eric Gray wrote:

> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked] 
> ] On Behalf Of Mary Barnes
> course, by the many threads of discussion on this topic at IETF-72,  
> but something that has caused problems for many of us over many  
> years of IETF meetings - even to the point that the only thing that  
> some folks could consume at the meeting location was beer - at least  
> the Guinness had lots of B vitamins and the gluten-free cider had  
> fruit!
>
> intolerance, Kosher, Halal, vegetarian/vegan, food allergies,  
> diabetic, other special diets, etc.. The list is intended to provide  
> a forum for discussion so that we can understand one another's  
> requirements and plan ahead for IETF meetings by both preparing  
> ourselves and the meeting planners."
>
> meeting lists, although I will post a reminder before and at the  
> meeting for folks that might not be aware.  We certainly welcome  
> anyone to subscribe and my guess (based on the population on  
> average) is that at least 10% of us (really should be 30%, but many  
> folks don't know about their issues yet :)  have food restrictions  
> of some sort.   Folks that are just interested in healthy eating  
> might also want to subscribe,  as the common food denominator for  
> most of these diets is a fairly broad range of whole foods with  
> known ingredients - i.e., without "mystery" additives or processing.
>
> Regards,
> Mary H. Barnes
>

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:28:37 -0500

Well, actually, there are cookies that can meet most (if not all) of our
requirements:
(Top) Allergen-free (including potato!): http://www.enjoylifefoods.com/
(also they are Kosher and Vegan)
Low protein: www.ener-g.com  (also all are GF, NF and some are EF and
SF, as well as Kosher)
Kosher/Pareve: www.macaroonking.com (they are also GF, SF, DF, NF AND
they make a sugar free version that is suitable for diabetics) AND most
importantly for IETF they even make BIG ones) - the only across the
board problem with these is they contain egg, so not vegan. 
 
And, these can all be bought in bulk from Amazon.com!
 
Although, I will note that I don't think we're all so picky that we
expect cookies, however, sorbet on "ice cream" Thursdays would sure be a
nice treat:)
 
Mary. 

From: Eric Gray [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 12:48 PM
To: Barnes, Mary (RICH2:AR00)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [72attendees] New mailing list to discuss IETF Food
requirements

--
Eric Gray
Principal Engineer
Ericsson 

	Hi all, 

	Regards, 
	Mary H. Barnes

---

From: Dave CROCKER <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:53:55 -0700

Mary Barnes wrote:
>    The list is intended to provide a forum for discussion so

I hope the discussion distinguishes between defining the burden that is to be 
assumed by IETF meeting planners, versus private efforts by IETF meeting attendees.

 From a pragmatic standpoint, meeting planners cannot accommodate 100% of 
attendees' needs.

So, striking a reasonable balance between the two is the interesting challenge.

d/

ps. Having meetings placed in resource-rich venues, within walking distance of 
those resources, is an important way to accommodate diverse requirements...

-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net
_______________________________________________
72attendees mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/72attendees

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:10:33 -0500

Sure...the idea is for the information flow to go both ways.  But in my
experience, the burden of accomodating folks like us is really quite
minimal if things are properly planned in advance. I also know of other
SDOs that manage this quite well (e.g., providing kosher lunches
separately and there are already accomodations for vegetarians when IETF
provides lunch.  It really is as simple as making the staff aware of the
needs since the venues at which IETF holds meetings are typically the
largest and most experienced available. Even in Dublin, once the staff
was aware, accomodations were made - it just made Monday lunchtime
particularly miserable and hectic for everyone (due to no advance
planning - I had successfully eaten at the hotel, so didn't realize how
constrained our lunch options would be) and for some of us, unless foods
are labeled or servers are trained, we still can't eat it.   

I have no doubt that if everyone was impacted in such a way (i.e., no
suitable meal for over 12 hours during the day) that folks would expect
something to be done. And, as I've said before if IETF were to have a
meeting at a location with no cookies or beer, there would certainly be
far more complaints and concerns. And, the no nuts in the cookies folks
were accomodated in the past.  

I do realize that for folks that don't have these limitations, the whole
idea that this requires ANY discussion seems quite trite and whiny, but
again my experience is that the difference in folks' attitudes about
this changes TREMENDOUSLY when it impacts them personally or they have a
family member that's impacted.  

I have already started looking into food options for Minneapolis and
that's one of the things I will post on that list. 

Thanks,
Mary Barnes.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave CROCKER [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 12:54 PM
To: Barnes, Mary (RICH2:AR00)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [72attendees] New mailing list to discuss IETF Food
requirements

Mary Barnes wrote:
>    The list is intended to provide a forum for discussion so that we 
> can understand one another's requirements and plan ahead for IETF 
> meetings by both preparing ourselves and the meeting planners."

I hope the discussion distinguishes between defining the burden that is
to be assumed by IETF meeting planners, versus private efforts by IETF
meeting attendees.

 From a pragmatic standpoint, meeting planners cannot accommodate 100%
of attendees' needs.

So, striking a reasonable balance between the two is the interesting
challenge.

d/

ps. Having meetings placed in resource-rich venues, within walking
distance of those resources, is an important way to accommodate diverse
requirements...

-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: Dave CROCKER <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:42:38 -0700

Mary,

Given the diversity of IETF participation, we can be assured that there are 
representatives for almost any point of view.  So, yes, I'm sure that some folks 
have no empathy or sympathy for the plight of others with culinary constraints. 
  But I think it is clear that that is not a dominant, or even significant, 
constituency within the IETF.

Rather, I believe the issue is merely one of practicality.  Some needs are 
easily accommodated.  Some are not.

Where more information is needed, the kind of discussion you are planning could 
be quite helpful.

But there are practical limits.  Limited resources and priorities to juggle.

That's why I ended by noting the considerable strategic benefit that accrues 
from placing the IETF somewhere with rich local resources:  It can offload the 
IETF machinery from some considerable burdens.

No matter how accommodating a hotel's staff might wish to be it, too, has 
resource constraints.

d/

> suitable meal for over 12 hours during the day) that folks would expect
...
> idea that this requires ANY discussion seems quite trite and whiny, but
...
> From: Dave CROCKER [mailto:[email-masked]] 
...

-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:13:44 -0500

Actually, in the U.S., celiac, for example (and I believe diabetes) is
covered by the American Disabilities Act (section 504), since it
substantially limits the "major life activity" of eating.  So, while
IETF no longer receives government funding as far as I'm aware, it was
my understanding the organization in general follows the spirit of the
law. 

I also think it's important that folks are aware that at least for the
medical restrictions, we are talking about a "need" and not a "want".
Since cookies are considered a requirement per the IETF Tao, it's
important to consider that for some of us it's not that we "want"
gluten-free or sugar-free cookies, but if we were to eat cookies, we
would "need" gluten-free or sugar-free ones.  

My personal opinion is that when we stay at full service hotels, then we
should expect full service (i.e., we're at a Hilton and not a Hampton
Inn). And, per the law in the U.S. hotels are required to support the
ADA act:
http://www.ada.gov/hsurvey.htm

Regards,
Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave CROCKER [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 1:43 PM
To: Barnes, Mary (RICH2:AR00)
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [72attendees] New mailing list to discuss IETF Food
requirements

Mary,

Given the diversity of IETF participation, we can be assured that there
are representatives for almost any point of view.  So, yes, I'm sure
that some folks have no empathy or sympathy for the plight of others
with culinary constraints. 
  But I think it is clear that that is not a dominant, or even
significant, constituency within the IETF.

Rather, I believe the issue is merely one of practicality.  Some needs
are easily accommodated.  Some are not.

Where more information is needed, the kind of discussion you are
planning could be quite helpful.

But there are practical limits.  Limited resources and priorities to
juggle.

That's why I ended by noting the considerable strategic benefit that
accrues from placing the IETF somewhere with rich local resources:  It
can offload the IETF machinery from some considerable burdens.

No matter how accommodating a hotel's staff might wish to be it, too,
has resource constraints.

d/

...
> I do realize that for folks that don't have these limitations, the 
> whole idea that this requires ANY discussion seems quite trite and 
> whiny, but
...
...
> distance of those resources, is an important way to accommodate 
> diverse requirements...
> 

-- 

   Dave Crocker

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:01:54 -0700 (PDT)

Mary,

I encourage you to come up with some kind of "requirements document" 
for this in words that are clearly understandable and translateable
into the various cultures we deal with (read Japan for example).

I am still a bit puzzled why this was all triggered by Dublin of all 
places, but be that as it may, if this is something we need to pay 
attention to (and it clearly is from reading this list), then the best 
approach would be the usual IETF way: send text.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:16:30 -0500

Yes, my plan is to write a document including some background and then
summarizing common requirements, which really won't be as extensive (or
demanding) as I think folks are thinking.  And, yes, there are gotchas
depending upon the venue, which is really why I think this is needed.

Dublin triggered this because many of us had eaten in the hotel
restaurants and found nicely labeled menus and found the staff very
willing and able to accommodate us. Then on Monday during lunch we found
our only option was the buffet, for which the staff were not aware of
all the ingredients or method of preparation. So, some of us had to be
very resourceful and track down a manager type or ask the workers to
accommodate us as best they could. I got a salad with somewhat old
iceberg lettuce and plain chicken, which was okay. Others found that
even french fries had been cooked in animal fat (not good for most
vegans/vegetarians and often problematic for Kosher/Halal). And, I had
more than one person comment that they only thing they could be sure of
was the Guinness (although, I'm not sure everyone was aware it is not
vegan/vegetarian!).  If we had known ahead of time, we all could have
done a whole lot more shopping in the city before the meeting. And, yes,
most of us in the end can manage (and often do) on nut butters, some
fresh fruit/veg (canned if not easily managed) and canned beans, salmon,
safe snacks that we smuggle across border, etc. if the need be.  

Overall, Dublin was great as there were plenty of restaurants in the
city to accommodate us. And, the hotel was very accomodating when I
requested a refrigerator, but that unfortunately was sparsely filled
because I did not have time during the week to get to a market (online
shopping/delivery options weren't feasible as there were no detailed
lists of ingredients). And, AMS did arrange a nice salad for me for WG
chairs tutorial. But, in the end I lost about 8 pounds that week - of
course, some could say that was needed, but that doesn't make my doctor
happy. 

Thanks,
Mary. 
--and yes, we should continue this discussion on the ieft-food list
(@employees.org)

-----Original Message-----
From: Ole Jacobsen [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:02 PM
To: Barnes, Mary (RICH2:AR00)
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [72attendees] New mailing list to discuss IETF Food
requirements

Mary,

I encourage you to come up with some kind of "requirements document" 
for this in words that are clearly understandable and translateable into
the various cultures we deal with (read Japan for example).

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj