Subject: Re: [72attendees] Dietary restrictions

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 15:37:12 -0700

At 5:12 AM -0500 7/31/08, Mary Barnes wrote:
>  a salad bar with protein for everyone's restrictions (i.e., no
>  gluten, kosher meats (for non-vegetarians/vegans) and nuts/beans/tofu
>  for vegans/vegetarians)

At 3:41 PM +0300 7/31/08, Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo) wrote:

>  I'm afraid that the IETF does not have the means to address these issues

>  I think the only solution is for us with food restrictions to help
>  ourselves

I thought Mary had some good suggestions, such as salads where pretty 
much everyone can find something to eat.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
   "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful
tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.
   "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean
so many different things."
   "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master  --
that's all."
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From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 06:59:06 -0700

On Aug 1, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
> I thought Mary had some good suggestions, such as salads where  
> pretty much everyone can find something to eat.

If you try to live on nothing but typical salads, you will begin to  
notice symptoms of starvation fairly quickly.   Vegetarians are not  
saladatarians.   Not trying to be negative - just a point of  
information.

This was the most challenging IETF for me food-wise.   I wound up  
switching away from the conference hotel and staying in Tallaght,  
where I was able to subsist on bread and hummus from the local Marks  
and Spencers.

Having said that, I quite enjoyed the visit to Ireland.   I'd never  
been before.   As Mary has said on a number of occasions, those of us  
with food issues tend to be resourceful about it.   If there is any  
one thing that could have made things simpler for me, it would have  
been more information.   Ireland is a relative information desert on  
the Internet, so I had to learn much of what I did about the venue and  
environs simply by going there, or by looking at satellite photos and  
trying to guess what I was seeing.   Which, I have to admit, was a lot  
of fun.

Rather than demanding that we always have venues that suit every need  
perfectly, it might make sense to come up with a list of heuristics  
that can be used to correctly obtain the information we need about a  
local area in advance of our arrival.   I say "heuristics" because  
people tend to answer questions like "is there XXX kind of food  
available" with "yes, that's no problem," which often isn't the case.

And as for hot water, if you get a room at any venue where the staff  
are unable to solve a plumbing problem or HVAC problem, it's perfectly  
reasonable to say "look, I can't stay here, please help me to find a  
suitable place to stay."   If you're calm and reasonable about it, it  
would be astonishing if the hotel staff were unwilling to accommodate  
your needs.

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From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 10:44:50 -0400

--On Friday, 01 August, 2008 15:37 -0700 Randall Gellens
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>>  I think the only solution is for us with food restrictions
>>  to help ourselves
> 
> 

Yes, but let's keep this in perspective.  Beyond a certain
point, Jonne is also right, e.g.,

	* Some food restrictions extend beyond the food itself
	to requirements to have requirements for certified
	preparation facilities and/or restrictions on those who
	prepare or handle the foods.  A salad isn't going to
	meet those requirements, not least because of the chance
	of cross-contamination.  
	
	* Some of us have exotic food allergies, where "exotic"
	means that the usual reaction of people to hearing about
	them is "never heard of someone being allergic to that
	one before" (i.e., it isn't the food that is exotic,
	just the allergy).   In my case, it is sufficiently
	minor that contamination of other foods by trace
	quantities is not an issue so I can generally pick
	thinks out of salads or the equivalent.  But, for
	someone with a severe exotic food allergy, the
	likelihood is fairly low that food prepared as a group
	common subset will help much.

Let's not get carried away by this lest aspirations for a
perfect solution for everyone prevent progress for more
significant numbers of people.

    john

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 10:49:16 -0400

--On Saturday, 02 August, 2008 06:59 -0700 Ted Lemon
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>...
> And as for hot water, if you get a room at any venue where the
> staff are unable to solve a plumbing problem or HVAC problem,
> it's perfectly reasonable to say "look, I can't stay here,
> please help me to find a suitable place to stay."   If you're
> calm and reasonable about it, it would be astonishing if the
> hotel staff were unwilling to accommodate your needs.

You weren't at IETF 28 were you? :-(

    john

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From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 11:26:42 -0700 (PDT)

One thing that isn't completely clear to me is if this "problem" is 
unique to Ireland. Is it really reasonable to expect a hotel in, say,
Minneapolis to be more clued in about this than one in Dublin? By 
"reasonable" I don't mean "fair" -- in an ideal world the full range
of options should be available. I mean "would you just expect them to
know X ?"

Now, when we go to Hiroshima there probably WILL be some issues that 
the local caterers simply do not comprehend and if someone would like
to compile a list of questions/concerns/requirements we (the IAOC in 
cooperation with the local host) can certainly do our best to pass
the information along and, where possible, find acceptale solutions.
We have more than a year to work on this.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 18:49:18 -0400

--On Saturday, 02 August, 2008 11:26 -0700 Ole Jacobsen
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> One thing that isn't completely clear to me is if this
> "problem" is  unique to Ireland. Is it really reasonable to
> expect a hotel in, say, Minneapolis to be more clued in about
> this than one in Dublin? By  "reasonable" I don't mean "fair"
> -- in an ideal world the full range of options should be
> available. I mean "would you just expect them to know X ?"

Ole,

I think that, for any given dietary issue or rule, there will be
places that will be more sensitive to it than others.  To take a
handy example involving ICANN rather than the IETF, there are
special (and quite rigorous) Islamic rules  about types, cuts,
and handling of meat.  One might have more trouble finding
restaurants who understand those rules and can deal with them
in, e.g., Sao Paulo or Los Angeles relative to, e.g., Cairo.
While the list is different, there are places where the degree
of sensitivity to food allergies and digestive sensitivities are
higher or lower than it is in others (the same thing could be
said about cigarette smoke, particulates in the air, and
wheelchair accessibility).

> Now, when we go to Hiroshima there probably WILL be some
> issues that  the local caterers simply do not comprehend

Based on stories and experience during the Yokohama meeting, one
is that "vegetarian" does not mean "vegetables stir-fried in
fish oil".

> and
> if someone would like to compile a list of
> questions/concerns/requirements we (the IAOC in  cooperation
> with the local host) can certainly do our best to pass the
> information along and, where possible, find acceptale
> solutions. We have more than a year to work on this.

Ack.

But let's not make ourselves, or each other, crazy.  The main
goal should be information -- which might even include
information that, for some people, the difficulties are great
enough that they should participate remotely-- not trying to
anticipate and solve every possible problem or meet every
possible need.  I think the IAOC should aspire to a minimum of
surprises and getting the information out early enough that
people can plan accordingly (i.e., not a few days before they
get on airplanes).

    john