Subject: Re: [74attendees] IETF attendee from Italy or Hong Kong -- visa issue

From: Franck Martin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:22:41 +1200 (ANAT)

Let's see the attendance rate when IETF is in Hiroshima in Japan 

Could be useful to track the number of people that could not attend due to visa issues? 

Anyone for a guestimate? I'm curious 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Huub van Helvoort" <[email-masked]> 
To: [email-masked] 
Sent: Thursday, 19 March, 2009 10:01:39 AM (GMT+1200) Auto-Detected 
Subject: Re: [74attendees] IETF attendee from Italy or Hong Kong -- visa issue 

Hej Lars, 

> I'll looking for someone traveling to the IETF from Italy or Hong Kong; 
> I have a favor to ask. Contact me off-list, please. 

I dounbt if there are many coming from Hong Kong, there were 
again problems with visa, many of my colleagues cannot attend. 

Regards, Huub. 

-- 
================================================================ 
Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else... 
_______________________________________________ 
74attendees mailing list 
[email-masked] 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/74attendees

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 23:33:29 +0100

> Could be useful to track the number of people that could not attend  

Yes, this is extremely important. A few incidents are to be expected,  
but if the US consistently fails to admit significant numbers of IETF  
participants we need to do something about that.

I would very much like to see the numbers of people who registered and  
didn't show up broken down between US, non-visa countries and visa  
countries. This should be relatively easy to tabulate and give a  
useful indication of what's going on.

---

From: Franck Martin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:41:26 +1200 (ANAT)

There is always a compilation of attendance per country. May be someone can analyze trends? And I think someone else compile from which countries RFCs are made.

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:18:01 -0700

> Let's see the attendance rate when IETF is in Hiroshima in Japan

perhaps attendance rate is not a useful measure?

and stockholm is first.

> Could be useful to track the number of people that could not attend

indeed, we should.

randy

---

From: Franck Martin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:41:20 +1200 (ANAT)

Yes Stockholm is first but as it seemed to be an issue with Asia going to the USA, Hiroshima is likely the meeting than most Asian will be able to attend with less visas problems? 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randy Bush" <[email-masked]> 
To: "Franck Martin" <[email-masked]> 
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked] 
Sent: Thursday, 19 March, 2009 11:18:01 AM (GMT+1200) Auto-Detected 
Subject: Re: [74attendees] IETF attendee from Italy or Hong Kong -- visa issue 

and stockholm is first. 

indeed, we should. 

randy

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:47:34 -0700

> Yes Stockholm is first but as it seemed to be an issue with Asia going
> to the USA, Hiroshima is likely the meeting than most Asian will be
> able to attend with less visas problems?

i am not sure about north koreans, but i am not aware that there would
be problems for others.  but i am not sure.

and in many venues there are also significant problems with various
middle-eastern, north african, and gulf countries.  this is aside from
the israelis keeping the palestinians imprisoned in their own country.

randy

---

From: Aaron Stone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 17:54:10 -0700

> perhaps attendance rate is not a useful measure?

I assert that attendance rate is purely economic, and directly proportional
to the tourism value of host city, possibly exchange rates of the host
country, general global economic situation, and not much else.

Nevertheless, it's not good when people get left out due to visas.

>> Could be useful to track the number of people that could not attend

I think this question could be asked directly: email all recent
participants (where recent is 3-5 years), and ask if there was a visa
problem at any point.

Aaron

---

From: "Roni Even" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 07:50:07 +0200

Randy,
I think that if you are not sure about your information you should not write
it. It is strange that you are not sure about the first part and sure about
the second part as if you have facts so I assume that you are not sure about
all your message.

Now for some facts.
Four of my colleagues from China asked for visa in December. Only two got
one. The strange thing is that one of them, attended Minneapolis but did not
get a visa this time and one had the opposite experience.

Regards
Roni

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Randy Bush
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:48 AM
To: Franck Martin
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [74attendees] IETF attendee from Italy or Hong Kong -- visa
issue

randy

---

From: Dmitry Burkov <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:35:20 +0300

> get a visa this time and one had the opposite experience.
Don't know about US visas practice in different countries, but in Russia 
last year
it take not less 3-4 months to get US visa for IT or network 
professionals regarding special DHS check procedure
(as usually embassy guys explain).

regards,
Dmitry

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:46:00 +0800

Roni,

The fact you mentioned is right. It is very diffcult to get the visa from 
US consulate in China. There is not any response for my application which 
was done on December 24, 2008.  It is unfair to us.
The strange thing is also happened to my colleague.
We look forward to the future IETF meeting held in China or out of US.

Best Regards,
Xihua Fu
ZTE Corporation

"Roni Even" <[email-masked]> 
发件人:  [email-masked]
2009-03-19 下午 01:50

收件人
"'Randy Bush'" <[email-masked]>, "'Franck Martin'" <[email-masked]>
抄送
[email-masked]
主题
Re: [74attendees] IETF attendee from Italy or Hong Kong --      visa issue

Randy,
I think that if you are not sure about your information you should not 
write
it. It is strange that you are not sure about the first part and sure 
about
the second part as if you have facts so I assume that you are not sure 
about
all your message.

Now for some facts.
Four of my colleagues from China asked for visa in December. Only two got
one. The strange thing is that one of them, attended Minneapolis but did 
not
get a visa this time and one had the opposite experience.

Regards
Roni

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] 
On
Behalf Of Randy Bush
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:48 AM
To: Franck Martin
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [74attendees] IETF attendee from Italy or Hong Kong -- visa
issue

randy

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 23:54:04 -0700

> The fact you mentioned is right. It is very diffcult to get the visa from US
> consulate in China.

i know.  i fight to get fellow researchers to conferences all the time.
and it is not just the US.

stockholm and hiroshima will be much better for chinese and many others,
but not all.  it was the "not all" to which i was speaing.

we should not hold meetings where all people can not freely attend.  we
go over this time and time again, and yet disenfranchise a vast number
of people.  and the ietf claims to be open.  pfui!

randy

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:34:13 +0100

On 19 mrt 2009, at 0:41, Franck Martin wrote:

> Yes Stockholm is first but as it seemed to be an issue with Asia  
> going to the USA, Hiroshima is likely the meeting than most Asian  
> will be able to attend with less visas problems?

But the attendence numbers alone don't tell us that. It's always  
easier to go to an IETF meeting closer to home.

That's why I suggested comparing the registration and attendence  
numbers per region (or even country). If people register, they intend  
to come. If then a lot of them don't come, visa issues are a likely  
explanation. (Of course we need to correct for a baseline by looking  
at people who we know don't have visa issues = American attendees.)

A survey would be much better but also a lot of work.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:41:10 +0800

Agree with the suggestion made by Mr. Fu Xihua.
To get a visa from US consulate seems impossible. We strongly suggest that 
all the future meeting of IETF should be held out of US.

BR

Xinquan Zhang

[email-masked] 
2009-03-19 14:46

收件人
"Roni Even" <[email-masked]>
抄送
[email-masked], [email-masked]
主题
[74attendees] 答复: Re:  IETF attendee from Italy or Hong Kong -- visa 
issue

Roni, 

Best Regards, 
Xihua Fu 
ZTE Corporation 

收件人
"'Randy Bush'" <[email-masked]>, "'Franck Martin'" <[email-masked]> 
抄送
[email-masked] 
主题
Re: [74attendees] IETF attendee from Italy or Hong Kong --        visa  
issue

Randy,

Now for some facts.

Regards
Roni

-----Original Message-----

randy

---

From: Richard Barnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:49:29 -0400

> we should not hold meetings where all people can not freely attend.

Don't we go over this every IETF?  There is no such place within any
country on earth, since every nation has the sovereign right to
control who passes its borders, and almost all countries exercise that
right.

Which means that if absolute openness is an absolute requirement, you
end up having to hold the IETF out in international waters, or in
Antarctica (or on the moon!).  Not that I don't want an adventure, but
it's just not practical to have an absolute requirement of free
passage.

(NB: This is not to say we should go places that are easy for most
people to reach.  But as the above discussion is shown, it's really
hard to get anything other than anecdotal data on which places are
"easy" for whom.)

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:41:35 -0400

> we should not hold meetings where all people can not freely attend.

Is there such a place ?

Regards
Marshall

>  we

Marshall Eubanks
CTO / Iformata Communications
[email-masked]

---

From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:44:08 +0000

> >we should not hold meetings where all people can not freely attend.

International waters?   The IETF liner could cruise the world's oceans, 
picking people up as it went... how's the accounts looking? :)

Tim

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:49:05 -0400

> picking people up as it went... how's the accounts looking? :)

Not good enough for that.

Marshall Eubanks

---

From: "Drew Dvorshak" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:49:50 -0400

Wow- get someone to sponsor the SS IETF...  I might be able to get Ted Lance
(Issac from the TV show "Love Boat")to bar tend at a welcome reception, but
the rest of the ship is a tall order even for me-- he says hoping to
pre-empt the e-mail Marshall is no-doubt writing to me right now to ask ;^).

Andrew Dvorshak
Sr. Mgr., Organizational Membership
Internet Society (ISOC)
1775 Wiehle Ave., Ste. 201
Reston, VA 20910-5108
USA
 
[email-masked]
Office: +1 703 439 2129
Fax: +1 703 326 9881

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Tim Chown
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:44 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [74attendees]??: Re: IETF attendee from Italy or Hong Kong --
visa issue

Tim

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:03:39 -0700

The IETF already has enough icebergs to navigate around thank your very
much...

joelja

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:09:05 -0700

>> we should not hold meetings where all people can not freely attend.

stockholm may be one of the places closest to this goal.  the US is one
of furthest.  the conclusion is left as an exercise to the student.

randy

---

From: Wes Hardaker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:35:39 -0700

>>>>> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:49:29 -0400, Richard Barnes <[email-masked]> said:

RB> Which means that if absolute openness is an absolute requirement, you
RB> end up having to hold the IETF out in international waters, or in
RB> Antarctica (or on the moon!).

Lets pick Mars instead.  Then we can have a plenary where we do a
DTN-only experiment to see how well it's doing.
-- 
"In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
 and much more difficult to find."  -- Terry Pratchett

---

From: "" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:42:59 -0500

Well, we cannot have them in China. The government there reputedly tends to throw free-thinking IETF types in jail. Imagine showing up in a "Free Tibet for the Dalai Lama" T-shirt after having just coordinated a public Falun Gong fundraiser, blogging in support of an armed and fully independent Taiwan, and while carrying a laptop full of high-grade porn. Now that may not be every IETF attendee, but it would not surprise me to find a few folks who have been even more creative. And we are certainly prone to saying politically incorrect things, especcially after a late bar BOF. It might get really ugly.

That is why the ITU meets in Geneva.

--
Dean

------- Original message -------
From:  <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Sent: 19.3.'09,  3:43

> To get a visa from US consulate seems impossible. We strongly suggest that all the future meeting of IETF should be held out of US.
> 
> BR
> 
> Xinquan Zhang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [email-masked]
> cent1/4þÈË:  [email-masked]
> 
> 2009-03-19 14:46 
> ÊÕ1/4þÈË
> ³ËÍ
> Ö÷Ìâ
> [74attendees] 'ð¸': Re:  IETF attendee from Italy or Hong Kong --        visa        issue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roni,
> 
> The fact you mentioned is right. It is very diffcult to get the visa from US consulate in China. There is not any response for my application which was done on December 24, 2008.  It is unfair to us.
> cent1/4þÈË:  [email-masked]
> 
> 2009-03-19 ÏÂÎç 01:50
> ÊÕ1/4þÈË
> ³ËÍ
> Ö÷Ìâ

---

From: "David B Harrington" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:55:24 -0400

Well, then I guess we should not schedule a session for the FreeTibet
WG ;-)

dbh 

> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of 
> [email-masked]
> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [74attendees]´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: Re: IETF attende e from 
> Italy or Hong Kong --?visa?issue
> 
> 
> Well, we cannot have them in China. The government there 
> reputedly tends to throw free-thinking IETF types in jail. 
> Imagine showing up in a "Free Tibet for the Dalai Lama" 
> T-shirt after having just coordinated a public Falun Gong 
> fundraiser, blogging in support of an armed and fully 
> independent Taiwan, and while carrying a laptop full of 
> high-grade porn. Now that may not be every IETF attendee, but 
> it would not surprise me to find a few folks who have been 
> even more creative. And we are certainly prone to saying 
> politically incorrect things, especcially after a late bar 
> BOF. It might get really ugly.
> 
> > To get a visa from US consulate seems impossible. We 
> strongly suggest that all the future meeting of IETF should 
> be held out of US.
> > 
> > BR
> > 
> > Xinquan Zhang
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [email-masked]
> > ?cent1/4þÈË:  [email-masked]
> > 
> > 2009-03-19 14:46 
> > ÊÕ1/4þÈË
> > The fact you mentioned is right. It is very diffcult to get 
> the visa from US consulate in China. There is not any 
> response for my application which was done on December 24, 
> 2008.  It is unfair to us.
> > ?cent1/4þÈË:  [email-masked]
> > 
> > 2009-03-19 ÏÂÎç 01:50
> > ÊÕ1/4þÈË

---

From: Ebw <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:59:46 -0500

If anyone would care to make the case that the CDNC/JET proposal was  
as carefully considered (and rejected) for SC/TC mapping in  
Minneapolis and London as it would have been in Beijing or Taipei or  
Seoul or Tokyo, please do so.

Responses of the form "the IETF doesn't do charsets or mappings" or  
"they didn't understand the problem" to /deb/null, the issue is do  
gatekeepers ($xenophobia) influence outcomes.

If so, action is required, in one form or another.

I'm with Randy. When the UK demanded crypto keys, the dropped off the  
list of places to do IETF work. The US has been visa abusive of PRC  
engineers since l

Sent from my iPhone, painfully.

---

From: Al Morton <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:02:54 -0400

At 12:42 PM 3/19/2009,  wrote:
>...And we are certainly prone to saying politically incorrect 
>things, especcially after a late bar BOF. It might get really ugly. 
>That is why the ITU meets in Geneva. -- Dean -------

Yes, people here right now from about 40 countries,
and nobody blogging about visa problems...

fondue here is the best!
(attempting to change the subject),
Al

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:17:30 -0400

> (attempting to change the subject),

Only at les Bains des Paquis

---

From: Olaf Kolkman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:46:47 +0100

On 19 mrt 2009, at 17:42, "" <[email-masked]> <[email-masked] 
 > wrote:

> Well, we cannot have them in China. The government there reputedly  
> tends to throw free-thinking IETF types in jail. Imagine showing up  
> in a "Free Tibet for the Dalai Lama" T-shirt after having just  
> coordinated a public Falun Gong fundraiser, blogging in support of  
> an armed and fully independent Taiwan, and while carrying a laptop  
> full of high-grade porn. Now that may not be every IETF attendee,  
> but it would not surprise me to find a few folks who have been even  
> more creative. And we are certainly prone to saying politically  
> incorrect things, especcially after a late bar BOF. It might get  
> really ugly.
>

Please do not exaggerate. You won't be thrown in jail if you show  
little respect and understanding for local habits in any country. But  
being insensitive to local habits will get you in trouble in every  
country (if only with the locals). But the point is: I don't see how  
wearing a political statement T-shirt would make any IETF work more or  
less productive. I would think that such IETF participant would have  
other garment.

We are an international organization and that means that IETF  
participants sometimes will have to respect other local culture, law,  
and habits than we are used too. I think the guiding principle should  
be: Can we get work done without barriers to participation or barriers  
to our own working methods. If the boundary conditions are such that  
we cannot get relevant IETF work done, then that would be a (strong)   
reason not to go to such place. If the boundary conditions are such  
that the IETF itself will need to make (implicit) political statements  
we may also not be able to go to such place.

But to me the guiding principle is: If people from certain regions  
come to the IETF, the IETF should come to them too. I don't think  
closing the door on China with a hyperbole does justice to the issue....

But then again.. I think I just missed a bunch of smileys.

--Olaf

---

From: Huub van Helvoort <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:38:33 +0100

Hello Dean,

You wrote:

> coordinated a public Falun Gong fundraiser, blogging in support of an
> armed and fully independent Taiwan, and while carrying a laptop full
> of high-grade porn.

So what is the differnece with this:
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/congressional_test/laptop_searches.xml

> That is why the ITU meets in Geneva.

Even there you have to behave civilised...

Regards, Huub.

---

From: Franck Martin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:59:47 +1200 (ANAT)

The UN did the World Summit of the Information Society in Tunisia. After that, all is possible! 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Olaf Kolkman" <[email-masked]> 
To: "\"\" <[email-masked]>" <[email-masked]> 
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked] 
Sent: Friday, 20 March, 2009 5:46:47 AM (GMT+1200) Auto-Detected 
Subject: Re: [74attendees] ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: Re: IETF attende e from Italy or Hong Kong --?visa?issue 

On 19 mrt 2009, at 17:42, "" wrote: > Well, we cannot have them in China. The government there reputedly > tends to throw free-thinking IETF types in jail. Imagine showing up > in a "Free Tibet for the Dalai Lama" T-shirt after having just > coordinated a public Falun Gong fundraiser, blogging in support of > an armed and fully independent Taiwan, and while carrying a laptop > full of high-grade porn. Now that may not be every IETF attendee, > but it would not surprise me to find a few folks who have been even > more creative. And we are certainly prone to saying politically > incorrect things, especcially after a late bar BOF. It might get > really ugly. > > That is why the ITU meets in Geneva. Please do not exaggerate. You won't be thrown in jail if you show little respect and understanding for local habits in any country. But being insensitive to local habits will get you in trouble in every country (if only with the locals). But the point is: I don't see how wearing a political statement T-shirt would make any IETF work more or less productive. I would think that such IETF participant would have other garment. We are an international organization and that means that IETF participants sometimes will have to respect other local culture, law, and habits than we are used too. I think the guiding principle should be: Can we get work done without barriers to participation or barriers to our own working methods. If the boundary conditions are such that we cannot get relevant IETF work done, then that would be a (strong) reason not to go to such place. If the boundary conditions are such that the IETF itself will need to make (implicit) political statements we may also not be able to go to such place. But to me the guiding principle is: If people from certain regions come to the IETF, the IETF should come to them too. I don't think closing the door on China with a hyperbole does justice to the issue.... But then again.. I think I just missed a bunch of smileys. --Olaf 
_______________________________________________ 74attendees mailing list [email-masked] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/74attendees

---

From: Huub van Helvoort <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:38:33 +0100

Hello Dean,

Regards, Huub.

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:22:06 -0500

> Even there you have to behave civilised...

Ah yes, but the Geneva definition of civilized behavior is closer to  
IETF norms and more tolerant of personal expression than certain other  
locations might be.

For example, one is not likely to be imprisoned in Geneva for any  
imaginable political speech (one might be shunned, laughed at, or  
taunted, but not imprisoned). One could march down the street with a  
banner demanding the suspension of the treaty of Westphalia and a  
return to putative rule by the Church, and people would just point and  
giggle.

Further, one is not likely to be arrested or beaten for failure to  
have a beard, having a Western-style (or any other style, for that  
matter) haircut, nor for immodestly displaying the body parts commonly  
exposed by Western clothing. More importantly, women are not  
persecuted for not wearing veils and body-sacks -- nor are they likely  
to be persecuted for wearing them if that's what they want to do.  
Flagrant homosexuals are not executed in Geneva for their preferences.

Cultural relativism aside, there really are places in the world so  
behavior-intolerant that the IETF really shouldn't be meeting there.  
There are places where armed and extra-legal "religious police"  
enforce their standards-du-jour with brutal efficiency. Geneva isn't  
one.  Geneva's only definition of intolerance that is likely to affect  
IETFers is that if you're dressed too poorly, you might not be seated  
for dinner in a decent restaurant.

This is, of course, a fundamentally different problem from the  
countries that just won't let people in completely independently of  
their behavior once they get there.

--
Dean Willis

---

From: Thomas Walsh <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:35:48 -0400

I see lots of ITU-T meetings in the USA.  Current ones include Indian Wells, CA, Atlanta, and Nashville for instance.  Whoever wrote the ITU Geneva comment isn't up to date I think.

And I agree with Huub we should be civilized no matter where we are.

> On Behalf Of Huub van Helvoort
> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:39 AM
> To: [email-masked]

---

From: Huub van Helvoort <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:38:33 +0100

Hello Dean,

Regards, Huub.

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:49:46 -0700

> IETF norms and more tolerant of personal expression than certain other

Oddly enough a few of IETF attendees spent significant amounts of time
during and after of the 56th IETF meeting out in the streets engaged in
civil protest...

http://nagasaki.bogus.com/joelja/03202003protest/dsc00180.jpg

> banner demanding the suspension of the treaty of Westphalia and a return
> to putative rule by the Church, and people would just point and giggle.
> 
> Further, one is not likely to be arrested or beaten for failure to have
> a beard, having a Western-style (or any other style, for that matter)
> haircut, nor for immodestly displaying the body parts commonly exposed
> by Western clothing. More importantly, women are not persecuted for not
> wearing veils and body-sacks -- nor are they likely to be persecuted for
> wearing them if that's what they want to do. Flagrant homosexuals are
> not executed in Geneva for their preferences.
> 
> There are places where armed and extra-legal "religious police" enforce
> their standards-du-jour with brutal efficiency. Geneva isn't one. 
> Geneva's only definition of intolerance that is likely to affect IETFers
> is that if you're dressed too poorly, you might not be seated for dinner
> in a decent restaurant.
> 
> This is, of course, a fundamentally different problem from the countries
> that just won't let people in completely independently of their behavior
> once they get there.
> 
> -- 
> Dean Willis
>

---

From: Stewart Bryant <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:50:26 +0000

> And I agree with Huub we should be civilized no matter where we are.
+1

I go to IETF to help make the Internet work better, not to make 
political statements about the host government.

My only criteria on location selection is whether we can get the work 
done and return home safely afterwards.

BTW Next ITU-SG15 plenary is in Tunis, and ITU-SG13 are going to 
Argentina, so they do not
always meet in Geneva.

Stewart

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:54:51 -0400

> Flagrant homosexuals are not executed in Geneva for their preferences.

Apparently, we could even have our first clothing optional IETF there,  
as long as
we met outdoors :

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/03/17/europe/swiss.php

I am not sure whether or not this would increase or cut down on  
attendance.

Regards
Marshall

Marshall Eubanks

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:36:19 -0400

--On Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:50 PM +0000 Stewart Bryant
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>...
> BTW Next ITU-SG15 plenary is in Tunis, and ITU-SG13 are going
> to Argentina, so they do not always meet in Geneva.

Of course not.  And the Plenipots and other ITU-wide "big"
meetings are almost never in Geneva.

But comparisons to the ITU are bogus for a different reason.  I
don't know if the rules extend down to the SG level or below (I
suspect not below), but major meetings occur at formal
invitation of the host country under UN rules, not at the
invitation of some more or less private group.  And that "under
UN rules" part permits the ITU to insist, as a condition of
considering the meeting location offer, on special (and very
binding) visa provisions for those meetings including guaranteed
visas for people who might otherwise get tied up in the system.  

If one really wanted to avoid meeting in places that would limit
attendance, getting the ITU -- in conjunction with host country
governments -- to arrange our meetings for us would probably be
more effective than trying to pick out the country with the
fewest restrictions.   On the other hand, we might not like what
they would expect in return for that service or to do in
conjunction with it.

    john

---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:08:54 -0400

--On Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:59:46 AM -0500 Ebw 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> If anyone would care to make the case that the CDNC/JET proposal was as
> carefully considered (and rejected) for SC/TC mapping in Minneapolis and
> London as it would have been in Beijing or Taipei or Seoul or Tokyo,
> please do so.
>
> Responses of the form "the IETF doesn't do charsets or mappings" or "they
> didn't understand the problem" to /deb/null, the issue is do gatekeepers
> ($xenophobia) influence outcomes.
>

Folks, this list is for issues related to actually attending IETF74. 
Questions about getting visas for that meeting are on-topic, though 
probably too late.  Reports about problems getting visas for that meeting 
_might_ be on-topic.

General complaints about the foreign policy of the US or any other nation, 
or accusations that the IETF somehow didn't properly address an issue 
because it happened to be meeting in Minneapolis are _not_ on-topic. 
Please take the pointless arguments to [email-masked]; some of us have real 
work to do.

-- Jeff

---

From: Huub van Helvoort <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:38:33 +0100

Hello Dean,

Regards, Huub.

---

From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:20:19 +0100

Actually you don't. What you see are mainly rapporteurs meetings which do not have ITU-T status, and are essentially a meeting of friends called by the rapporteur and with some resource support supplied by ITU-T in terms of documentation and so on. The results of those meetings have to be endorsed by an ITU-T meeting.

ITU-T meetings are those called by collective letters, and used at least to have status in that you could not be refused entry if you were coming as a delegate to the meeting.

Keith

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Thomas Walsh
> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:36 PM
> To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> I see lots of ITU-T meetings in the USA.  Current ones 
> include Indian Wells, CA, Atlanta, and Nashville for 
> instance.  Whoever wrote the ITU Geneva comment isn't up to 
> date I think.
> 
> > [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > Subject: Re: [74attendees] ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: Re: IETF attende e 
> from Italy 
> > or Hong Kong --?visa?issue
> > 
> > Hello Dean,
> > 
> > You wrote:
> > 
> reputedly 
> > > full of high-grade porn.

---

From: Richard Bennett <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:28:32 -0700

I wonder how hard it is for Taiwanese to get visas for China.

RB

-- 
Richard Bennett

---

From: Thomas Walsh <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:29:28 -0400

And your point is what?  

Only ITU-T Study Group meetings are announced via collective letter.  ITU-T Rapporteur meetings must be authorized by an ITU-T SG.  They are not a meeting of friends of the Rapporteur.  

Oh I missed another one.  Suunyvale CA is also having an ITU-T meeting too.

> From: DRAGE, Keith (Keith) [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:20 PM
> To: Thomas Walsh; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: [74attendees] ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: Re: IETF attende e from Italy or
> Hong Kong --?visa?issue
> 
> Actually you don't. What you see are mainly rapporteurs meetings which do
> not have ITU-T status, and are essentially a meeting of friends called by
> the rapporteur and with some resource support supplied by ITU-T in terms
> of documentation and so on. The results of those meetings have to be
> endorsed by an ITU-T meeting.
> 
> ITU-T meetings are those called by collective letters, and used at least
> to have status in that you could not be refused entry if you were coming
> as a delegate to the meeting.
> 
> Keith
> 
> > from Italy or Hong Kong --?visa?issue
> >

---

From: Ebw <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:59:22 -0500

Resated, your position is that the presence, or absence, of engineers  
with subject matter expertise, on particular, equivalence classes in  
the UTC 3.1 CJK reperitoire, has no bearing on meetings, or the  
outcomes of working groups.

That's possibly true.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 19, 2009, at 3:08 PM, Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]> wrote:

> --On Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:59:46 AM -0500 Ebw <[email-masked] 
> > wrote:
>
>> "they
> probably too late.  Reports about problems getting visas for that  
> meeting _might_ be on-topic.
>
> General complaints about the foreign policy of the US or any other  
> nation, or accusations that the IETF somehow didn't properly address  
> an issue because it happened to be meeting in Minneapolis are _not_  
> on-topic. Please take the pointless arguments to [email-masked]; some  
> of us have real work to do.
>
> -- Jeff
>

---

From: Ondřej Surý <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:06:49 +0100

Olaf and all,

First let me say: please all - if you want to discuss reply off-list.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Olaf Kolkman <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> On 19 mrt 2009, at 17:42, "" <[email-masked]>
> <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>> Well, we cannot have them in China..
>
> Please do not exaggerate.

Dean made the mistake of taking things into extreme. So I thought I could
share my personal experience - I did attend few Days of Tibet in front
of Chinese embassy here in Czech Republic and I still remember that
chinese looking woman taking close pictures of faces of people holding
banners including myself.

Sure, I do not know if she was connected to the Chinese embassy or if she
was just independent journalist or whatever. But my suspicion is that I won't
be granted visa for this reason - but of course I could be mistaken - I didn't
have a reason to try to apply for a one.

Ondrej.
P.S.: And yes, I was also extremely offended by U.S. visa forms and it took
me several months to convince myself to really fill them.
-- 
 Ondrej Sury
 technicky reditel/Chief Technical Officer
 -----------------------------------------
 CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o.  --  .cz domain registry
 Americka 23,120 00 Praha 2,Czech Republic
 mailto:[email-masked]  http://nic.cz/
 sip:[email-masked] tel:+420.222745110
 mob:+420.739013699     fax:+420.222745112
 -----------------------------------------

---

From: Huub van Helvoort <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:38:33 +0100

Hello Dean,

Regards, Huub.

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:26:49 -0700

> Folks, this list is for issues related to actually attending IETF74. 

or not being allowed to attend ietf74

randy

---

From: Bernie Hoeneisen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:20:34 +0100 (CET)

Hi Marshall et al.

> Is there such a place ?

Whereas the U.S. is far away with this respect, many European countries 
are close to this. I am not aware of that e.g. Switzerland would refuse 
a visa based on nationality (given the applicant shows an invitation 
letter confirming he/she is attending an IETF meeting).

Having IETF meetings in the U.S. excluds many participants due to visa 
policies. I suggest to have more meetings outside North America (e.g. 
Europe, Asia, ...) and move the remaining North American meetings to 
Canada.

cheers,
  Bernie

---

From: Ebw <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:41:30 -0500

Marshall,

Some of our work, IDN in particular in Apps, is human-sensative. Few  
Chinese in 2003, few Arabic and Farsi in 2008, these have adverse  
outcomes.

Some of our work, delay tolerant or low power, is capital-sensative.  
Few non-OEDC contributors also has adverse outcomes.

The goal of unrestricted access, even a lesser goal of equal access,  
should not obscure our specific needs.

And no small number of IETF contributors are unconcerned by things not  
ASCII, or the performance implications of thin or spotty wires, and  
have go inhibitions about keeping the agenda focused on their needs.

Eric

On Mar 19, 2009, at 6:20 PM, Bernie Hoeneisen  
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> Whereas the U.S. is far away with this respect, many European  
> countries are close to this. I am not aware of that e.g. Switzerland  
> would refuse a visa based on nationality (given the applicant shows  
> an invitation letter confirming he/she is attending an IETF meeting).
>
> Having IETF meetings in the U.S. excluds many participants due to  
> visa policies. I suggest to have more meetings outside North America  
> (e.g. Europe, Asia, ...) and move the remaining North American  
> meetings to Canada.
>
> cheers,
> Bernie

---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:33:36 -0400

--On Thursday, March 19, 2009 03:59:22 PM -0500 Ebw 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> with subject matter expertise, on particular, equivalence classes in the
> UTC 3.1 CJK reperitoire, has no bearing on meetings, or the outcomes of
> working groups.

Don't put words in my mouth.  I made no such statement, and I'm taking no 
position in that particular argument.  I'm simply telling you that it is 
off topic here, and asking you take it elsewhere.

---

From: Ebw <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:54:06 -0500

Actually you wrote "pointless" and offered your own, personal view  
that the issue is "political" rather than the process and protocol  
outcomes that selective visa policies may incidently accomplish.

So your "ask" was ... opinionated?

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:33 PM, Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]> wrote:

> --On Thursday, March 19, 2009 03:59:22 PM -0500 Ebw <[email-masked] 
> > wrote:
>
> Don't put words in my mouth.  I made no such statement, and I'm  
> taking no position in that particular argument.  I'm simply telling  
> you that it is off topic here, and asking you take it elsewhere.
>

---

From: RJ Atkinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:50:21 -0400

On  19 Mar 2009, at 02:46, [email-masked] wrote:
> The fact you mentioned is right. It is very diffcult to get the visa
> from US consulate in China. There is not any response for my  
> application
> which was done on December 24, 2008.

You have said the "visa issue" is that visa application
processing takes time.  That is very helpful data.

People I know at Huawei in China have repeatedly told me that
one must apply for a US visa at least 4 full months in advance.

Note also that all US Embassies are closed on December 25th,
and generally are understaffed (due to a number of US Embassy
employees going home to the US on holiday that week) between
the 24th December and first week of January.

> It is unfair to us.

The PR China Embassy regularly takes a very long time to
process US applications for visas to PR China.

Business visas, which would be needed to attend an IETF
held in PR China, are almost impossible for a US national
to obtain in less than 4-6 months from application.  Such
visas also require an impressively large number of signed
forms from folks in China.

Yours,

Ran

---

From: Ebw <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:15:17 -0500

Ran,

Your experience may be more recent, but my experience was getting a  
single visit visa (twice in the space of July to November, 2001), was  
the total time for each was a few days, with most of the time taken by  
sending a passport from WDC to NYC.

I was invited, and of was for DNS / IDN / IETF business, but that  
should be true for any hypothetical meeting we might hold in Beijing.

Eric

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:17:39 -0400

> sending a passport from WDC to NYC.

That was my experience both times I applied for a visa to visit the  
PRC from Canada, through the embassy in Ottawa. Service was extremely  
prompt and courteous.

Joe

---

From: RJ Atkinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:47:02 -0400

On  20 Mar 2009, at 14:58, Christopher LILJENSTOLPE wrote:
> 	Not sure about that.  I usually could get an Chinese business
> visa in about 24-48 hours.  It may be related to sponsorship of the  
> visa,
> but it can be done.

Interesting.

Was the PR China government, or some government organisation,
the party sponsoring the business visa from the Chinese side ?

I know of a number of visa applications, to PR China embassies
in several countries, by folks of varying nationalities.  That
is the first issuance that I have heard of that took less
than 4 months.

> I really don't know of anyone that has had to wait 6 months
> to get a Chinese business visa.

I know of several such folks, including at least 2 from
EU countries.

Yours,

Ran

---

From: RJ Atkinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:48:18 -0400

On  20 Mar 2009, at 15:15, Ebw wrote:
> Your experience may be more recent,

Yes,  My data are more recent.

Ran

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:53:30 -0400

> the party sponsoring the business visa from the Chinese side ?

Not in the case of either of my visits.

Whilst not as well-travelled as some here, I've had some experience  
travelling to a reasonable assortment of places who required visas, to  
work. The only country I've consistently had any problem entering is  
the US. I offer this as a simple data point, as someone who holds  
Canadian, British and New Zealand passports.

I think it's uncontentious to assert that entering the US is more  
difficult than many other countries where it might be possible to host  
an IETF meeting.

I think it's also fair to say that there are more relevant criteria  
when it comes to choosing a meeting venue than just this one,  
important though it is.

Perhaps we can move on now and talk about IETF 74.

Joe

---

From: "David B Harrington" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 16:26:16 -0400

Here are a few more fact sfor you.

In October 2007, I got a 12 month Chinese multi-entry visa in less
than a month. Most of that time was sending my papers to Houston from
NH, and back. I am an employee of Huawei, which might have helped.

My coworkers in Beijing were told by the US embassy on February 4th
that processing their visa applications would take 10-12 weeks, and
they were told to get a new invitation letter with dates at least
10-12 weeks away. They will not be attending ietf74 because they did
not get visas in time.

David Harrington
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Joe Abley
> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 3:54 PM
> To: RJ Atkinson
> Cc: [email-masked]; Christopher LILJENSTOLPE
> Subject: Re: [74attendees] : visa issue
> 
>

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:34:02 -0500

> 10-12 weeks away. They will not be attending ietf74 because they did

I would agree that the US has been the singularly most unfriendly border 
I have crossed that we might be likely to cross when attending an IETF. 
Some places are apathetic, some are very formal, but the US is just 
downright unwelcoming, even to those of us born there. I really enjoy 
Zurich -- it seems like the border officers there are mostly for giving 
advice on shopping and dining. That is a friendly place for travelers!

IETF 74 Hotel recommendation: I'm at the Mark Twain, directly across the 
street from the Hilton, which I booked at Expedia for about $65 a night. 
I just arrived, having come early for the code sprint tomorrow. The 
hotel is  not shiny and new, but seems adequate, and the staff is very 
friendly. So far, 4 stars from the cheap travel guy. You shoulda seen 
the closet I slept in in Oslo!

I used Bart from the airport, which worked nicely. The walk from the 
Powell Street station was bout 3 blocks and took maybe 5 minutes. Fare 
was, IIRC, $5.30 and the ticket vending machine accepted my Visa debit card.

Apparently the tickets are sold in whole-dollar amounts, and are 
refillable at the same vending machine. So don't throw your ticket away 
after getting here . . .

--
Dean

---

From: "Mei Wang (anitwang)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:39:53 -0700

Anybody interested in carpooling from the south bay to San Francisco? 

Thanks, 
Mei

---

From: Christopher LILJENSTOLPE <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:58:32 -0700

Hi Ran,

	Not sure about that.  I usually could get an Chinese business visa in  
about 24-48 hours.  It may be related to sponsorship of the visa, but  
it can be done.  I really don't know of anyone that has had to wait 6  
months to get a Chinese business visa.

	Chris

> forms from folks in China.

---
李柯睿
Check my PGP key here:
https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:28:10 -0400

IMPORTANT! This message has been blind-carbon-copied to you.
Do not reply-to-all or forward it without the author's
permission.

(off list)

--On Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:46 PM +0100 Olaf Kolkman
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>...
> Please do not exaggerate. You won't be thrown in jail if you
> show little respect and understanding for local habits in any
> country. 

Olaf, while Dean is engaging in a rather extreme form of
hyperbole (and I trust knows that), I trust you know that your
statement quoted above isn't true either (or that you have a
very narrow definition, much narrower than Dean's, of "local
habits".  

As only one specific example, I would not recommend taking even
small quantities of some mildly consciousness-altering materials
that can be obtained and used legally in parts of your country
into, e.g., Turkey, Thailand, or Indonesia, flaunting the "local
habits" there.

And, while I would not expect the behaviors Dean identifies to
result in serious trouble for an attendee at an international
meeting in China that was held in a major city with tourism and
conference aspirations and who stayed close to the meeting
venue, foreigners have been detained, held, and eventually
expelled (sometimes after rather long periods) for some of the
activities on Dean's list.

You could argue, probably correctly, that, if he went to
Beijing, put on his Falun Gong or Free Tibet tee shirt, and
attended an active demonstration in favor of those movements
that he wasn't don't anything IETF-ish but was taking advantage
of his IETF-induced presence to participate in irrelevant
activities and it was the latter that got him into trouble.  But
the line there is thinner than it might appear.

To illustrate with a small (but extreme) example, suppose we
started getting a significant attendance from an extremely
conservative Islamic county (take you pick) and were considering
a meeting there.  They would be happy to grant visas (although
Saudi Arabia, and even Egypt (which is not conservative in that
regard) would about as likely to issue visas to the Iranians as
the US), but with the condition that the women never leave the
conference venue except fully covered and in the company/care of
a male relative.  Certainly that is the "local habit".  I think
we have some women in the community who would take fairly
serious exception to that sort of restriction... possibly to the
extent of feeling a need to protest the boundaries, either by
not attending or by attending and protesting. as a fundamental
moral issue.  Would we meet there anyway?  I'd hope not.   But
I'm not quite sure I see the boundary between that and the
Tibetan or Falun Gong examples as very clear.

     john

---

From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:54:30 -0700

The BART fare was $5.35 one way, and you can purchase the exact amount
- using the buttons you can increment the amount up or down by $1 and
by $.05. The only hangup in the process was the long lines at the fare
machines outside the BART station at the airport.

The exit from the Powell St. BART platform that's most direct to the
hotel (Hallidie Plaza) has stairs rather than an escalator, which is
inconvenient with bags, but if you go further down the platform you
can go up an escalator and then backtrack on the upper station level
to the Hallidie Plaza exit.

Cheers,
Andy

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Dean Willis <[email-masked]> wrote:
> I would agree that the US has been the singularly most unfriendly border I
> have crossed that we might be likely to cross when attending an IETF. Some
> places are apathetic, some are very formal, but the US is just downright
> unwelcoming, even to those of us born there. I really enjoy Zurich -- it
> seems like the border officers there are mostly for giving advice on
> shopping and dining. That is a friendly place for travelers!
>
> street from the Hilton, which I booked at Expedia for about $65 a night. I
> just arrived, having come early for the code sprint tomorrow. The hotel is
>  not shiny and new, but seems adequate, and the staff is very friendly. So
> far, 4 stars from the cheap travel guy. You shoulda seen the closet I slept
> in in Oslo!
>
> I used Bart from the airport, which worked nicely. The walk from the Powell
> Street station was bout 3 blocks and took maybe 5 minutes. Fare was, IIRC,
> $5.30 and the ticket vending machine accepted my Visa debit card.
>
> Apparently the tickets are sold in whole-dollar amounts, and are refillable
> at the same vending machine. So don't throw your ticket away after getting
> here . . .
>
> --
> Dean
>