Subject: [74attendees] Parking near the Hilton

From: Paul Hoffman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:45:51 -0800

Greetings again. For those of you driving to the meeting and parking, there are cheaper choices than the one at the hotel if you're willing to walk a few blocks. There is a giant multi-story parking structure at Fifth and Mission (<http://www.fifthandmission.com/home.htm>) that charges $30 a day instead of the $45 at the meeting hotel. It is less than 10 minutes walk from the hotel to the garage. 

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

---

From: Derek Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 14:06:47 -0400

I recommend forgoing a car and getting a BART/Muni pass for the week.
At least that's my plan.  There's BART access from SFO and decent bus
and rail within the city.

-derek

Paul Hoffman wrote:
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/74attendees

-- 
Derek Atkins
Principal Software Engineer

PGP Corporation
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Somerville, MA  02144

+1 617 623 3745 | [email-masked]

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From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:08:47 -0700

On Mar 9, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> Greetings again. For those of you driving to the meeting and  
> parking, there are cheaper choices than the one at the hotel if  
> you're willing to walk a few blocks. There is a giant multi-story  
> parking structure at Fifth and Mission (<http://www.fifthandmission.com/home.htm 
> >) that charges $30 a day instead of the $45 at the meeting hotel.  
> It is less than 10 minutes walk from the hotel to the garage.

Seems like you could also park at one of the BART parking structures  
for a lot cheaper still.  Daily parking at the various BART lots  
ranges up to about $4/day, and when you add in the BART ticket you're  
probably looking at under $10 for the day.   Of course, BART takes  
longer, but you avoid the downtown traffic, which is a win, and you  
can read a book on the train.

http://www.bart.gov/guide/parking/index.aspx

---

From: Andy Bierman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 11:27:18 -0700

> and rail within the city.

Excellent advice.
You SHOULD NOT rent a car for the SF IETF.
Parking at the hotel is $51 (USD) per night.
Driving and parking in downtown San Francisco is not that easy.
Public transportation is excellent from the hotel location.
There are lots of 'places of interest' within walking distance.

> -derek

Andy

---

From: "Charles E. Perkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 11:35:57 -0700

Hello folks,

I believe that Caltrain from San Jose would cause one to have a
commute time to IETF of perhaps 90 minutes.  I am planning to
drive every day, and have one rider.  I could take one or two
more people if we can work out a schedule and you promise to
be prompt :-).  Usually, I'd be there all day and into the evening,
especially for the plenaries and maybe some bar bofs.  The
commute time would be under an hour, I expect.

Or maybe this isn't the right place for carpooling requests --
I don't know.  So please don't flame me if I am barking up the
wrong tree here.  Perhaps someone could set up a carpool
website under http://www.ietf.org/meetings/74/

Regards,
Charlie P.

---

From: Paul Hoffman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:43:58 -0800

>and rail within the city.

For folks coming from the Airport, that is of course a good plan. Many of us are coming from the Bay Area itself, and for some of us driving each day is impractical.

At 11:08 AM -0700 3/9/09, Ted Lemon wrote:
>Seems like you could also park at one of the BART parking structures for a lot cheaper still.  Daily parking at the various BART lots ranges up to about $4/day, and when you add in the BART ticket you're probably looking at under $10 for the day.   Of course, BART takes longer, but you avoid the downtown traffic, which is a win, and you can read a book on the train.
>

As that page warns, there is a 24-hour parking limit at most BART parking lots. When I lived next to the North Berkeley BART station, they towed cars that had parked in the lot for more than 24 hours every day. If you use this option, be sure you have the "airport" parking pass and be sure you park in the designated area (which, at many stations, is full by 7AM).

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

---

From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:50:57 -0700

Depends on when you ride.   The 7:56 express from Tamien gets you in  
to San Francisco at 9:02, which is only 64 minutes, and I think  
there's a nice parking lot at Tamien.   Of course you have to get from  
4th and King to the hotel - it's about a fifteen-minute walk, or you  
can take the 30 or 45 bus, which run pretty frequently that time of  
day, and it's about five minutes to where you get off and walk.    
There's also a 7:45 express from Diridion that gets you in to San  
Francisco at 8:42, which should be time enough to make a 9:00 meeting,  
or if you want to make it in time for breakfast, the 6:56 from Tamien  
will get you in at 8:02.

If you aren't going to a morning meeting, driving probably is faster,  
both because traffic will be lighter and because there are no express  
trains.   Bear in mind though that when riding Caltrain, you can do  
something else; when driving, you are driving (I hope!).

Probably more information than you wanted, but hey, this is the  
IETF.   Pick any two members, and you'll get three opinions...

---

From: Barry Leiba <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 15:56:28 -0400

To those of you who are considering commuting, let me just give you this story:
In August 1988, I commuted to the SHARE conference in NYC from my home
in Peekskill, NY.  I took the Metro-North commuter train from
Peekskill to Grand Central Terminal, and then walked from there to the
meeting.  On the surface, it seemed a reasonable thing to do.

But here's how the schedule worked out:
I got up at 5:30 in the morning in order to get ready, get to the
train station, and catch the train in time to arrive for 8:30
conference sessions.
I stayed in the evenings, of course, because the value of the
conference continued through dinner, connecting with others and having
further discussion.
I caught a train home between 10:30 and 11.  By the time I got home
and got ready for bed, it was close to 1:00 before I was asleep.
I got up at 5:30 in the morning in order to.......

So, here:
Not counting commuting time, I needed to be alert for about 14 hours
each day, on less than five hours' sleep.  That lasted no more than
two days before it failed utterly, and by Thursday I was falling
face-first into my soup at lunch.

Having 90 minutes or more between leaving home and being in the
meeting room is not a pleasant situation, unless you're willing to go
straight home after the meetings and forgo dinner.  It will make for a
very icky week.  Keep that in mind when you plan your commute.

Barry

---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:57:12 -0400

--On Monday, March 09, 2009 11:43:58 AM -0800 Paul Hoffman 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> For folks coming from the Airport, that is of course a good plan. Many of
> us are coming from the Bay Area itself, and for some of us driving each
> day is impractical.

Sure, but if you're coming from the Bay Area, you probably don't need 
transit advice from this mailing list, except perhaps to move someplace 
with a simpler transit system. :-)

---

From: "Ivancic, William D. (GRC-RHN0)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:26:07 -0500

BART is definitely the way to go if flying it SF Airport.  The stop is about two or three blocks from the meeting hotel.

 Public transportation in SF is very good.  You can get multi-day passes and they are good for buses and trolley.

/Will

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Hutzelman
> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 3:57 PM
> To: Paul Hoffman; Derek Atkins
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [74attendees] Parking near the Hilton
> 
> > For folks coming from the Airport, that is of course a good 
> plan. Many 
> > of us are coming from the Bay Area itself, and for some of 
> us driving 
> > each day is impractical.
> 
> Sure, but if you're coming from the Bay Area, you probably 
> don't need transit advice from this mailing list, except 
> perhaps to move someplace with a simpler transit system. :-)

---

From: Ross Callon <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:19:50 -0400

Is the week long MUNI pass good on the cable cars? Is it good on BART?
Should we get one on arrival in the BART station at the SFO airport? 

thanks, Ross

PS: I agree that a car is a non-starter. If you do park a rental car in
the hotel lot, and use your car to drive to dinner, there will be
nowhere to park once you get to dinner. Easier and cheaper to use almost
any other form of transportation unless you need to drive a significant
distance out of the city. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Derek Atkins
Sent: 09 March 2009 14:07
To: Paul Hoffman
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [74attendees] Parking near the Hilton

-derek

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:22:09 -0400

On 10 Mar 2009, at 00:19, Ross Callon wrote:

> PS: I agree that a car is a non-starter.

Never mind cars, what about parking for black helicopters?

Joe

---

From: Franck Martin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:37:10 +1200 (ANAT)

Ohh... That's how Russ comes to the meetings! Now it figures. ;)

---

From: Bob Hinden <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 07:04:44 -0700

> Never mind cars, what about parking for black helicopters?

There is a special rate for roof parking!

Bob

---

From: Marc Petit-Huguenin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 07:36:56 -0700

> with a simpler transit system. :-)

Not necessarily.  I live in the Bay Area (Saratoga), but I could
really use some advice (I telecommute most of the time).  What is
the best?  Carpool to Millbrae then BART?  Car to San Jose, Caltrain
then BART?  Cheap hotel room in SFO?

Thanks.

-- 
Marc Petit-Huguenin
Home: [email-masked]
Work: [email-masked]

---

From: Paul Hoffman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:03:06 -0700

At 9:37 AM -0500 3/10/09, Sandra Murphy wrote:
>The transportation info on the IETF 74 web site says that the Powell St Station is closest ("Blocks away" - mighty inspecific there).  The BART web site shows that as about 5 blocks away.  Any words as to whether that's an OK walk and safe if one is arriving after dark (probably 7pm-ish)?

Generally safe, even later in the evening. The Powell St stop is still part of the business district, and the IETF hotel is just a few short blocks from there. If you are at the Montgomery St stop, it's about a 15 minute walk to the IETF hotel, mostly through the business district.

Note, however, if you are at the next stop south, Civic Center, walking to the hotel still will not take you long but you will go through some very seedy neighborhoods. In this case, you are better off walking up Market Street to Mason and then going up to the hotel. This part of Market Street is seedy, but quite busy and therefore only nominally dangerous (tripping over drunks and such).

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

---

From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:23:19 +0100

Any recommendations for save transport from Fishermans Warf to the
conference hotel?
Is by foot a possibility? Or are there good public transport between
locations?
(is there city URL with details on the links etc)

G/

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman
Sent: dinsdag 10 maart 2009 16:03
To: Sandra Murphy
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [74attendees] BART to the hotel

At 9:37 AM -0500 3/10/09, Sandra Murphy wrote:
>The transportation info on the IETF 74 web site says that the Powell St
Station is closest ("Blocks away" - mighty inspecific there).  The BART
web site shows that as about 5 blocks away.  Any words as to whether
that's an OK walk and safe if one is arriving after dark (probably
7pm-ish)?

Generally safe, even later in the evening. The Powell St stop is still
part of the business district, and the IETF hotel is just a few short
blocks from there. If you are at the Montgomery St stop, it's about a 15
minute walk to the IETF hotel, mostly through the business district.

Note, however, if you are at the next stop south, Civic Center, walking
to the hotel still will not take you long but you will go through some
very seedy neighborhoods. In this case, you are better off walking up
Market Street to Mason and then going up to the hotel. This part of
Market Street is seedy, but quite busy and therefore only nominally
dangerous (tripping over drunks and such).

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:32:51 -0400

> (is there city URL with details on the links etc)

There's this thing called Google Maps you could try :-) It'll give you  
directions by car, by foot and by public transport.

 From Fisherman's Wharf to 333 O'Farrell the suggestion for public  
transport is take the Powell-Mason cable car from Taylor and Bay to  
Powell and O'Farrell which, if you walk at the pace they assume and  
don't have to wait for the cable car will take you 28 minutes.

If you walk at a Google Standard Pace it'll take you 40 minutes. It's  
about 3km.

Joe

---

From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:34:36 +0000

The cable cars run up to Union Square, which is 2-3 blocks away I recall.

Tim

-- 
Tim

---

From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:35:09 +0100

Was more wondering about the drunks I have to step over or find sleeping
in the cable-car :-)

G/

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Abley [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: dinsdag 10 maart 2009 16:33
To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)
Cc: Paul Hoffman; Sandra Murphy; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [74attendees] BART to the hotel

Joe

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:38:03 -0400

> Was more wondering about the drunks I have to step over or find  

You're far more likely to get injured by a tourist's camera in the eye.

Joe

---

From: "Ingemar Johansson S" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:45:09 +0100

Hi

I was in SF in '98, on one occasion I missed the last tram (or it was
out or order, don't remember) so I walked all the way from Fishermans
wharf to my hotel not far away from Union Sq. 
Did not bother then about my safety, the worst thing that happened to me
was that the beggars asked for spare change but maybe I was lucky. To be
frank I believe that there is a bigger chance that I get mugged or
beaten up by some gangmembers in my small hometown in northern Sweden
than in SF. On the other hand it is 10 years ago, don't know if things
have become worse, maybe I was just plain lucky ?

/Ingemar

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Gunter Van 
> de Velde (gvandeve)
> Sent: den 10 mars 2009 16:35
> To: Joe Abley
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Was more wondering about the drunks I have to step over or 
> find sleeping in the cable-car :-)
> 
> G/
>

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:47:37 -0400

> Any recommendations for save transport from Fishermans Warf to the

An outsiders viewpoint...

>
> Is by foot a possibility?

Yes, of course. You can walk all the way up Taylor or Mason or...

It is a ways, over some significant hills, and some great views.
Or, you could walk to Embarcadero and then up Market, or take a street  
car up Market. (No Hills).
Neither is very fast, or fun in the rain.

> Or are there good public transport between
> locations?

I would seriously consider the Cable Car - the Powell Mason or Powell  
Hyde lines.

http://www.sfcablecar.com/routes.html

That will take you to within a very
short walk to the hotel.

The Cable Car is limited, but it is transportation and it actually  
works reasonably well in my experience.

Note that if you get a pass you can ride the Cable Car.

Passports:  and allow riding on streetcars, buses, and cable cars.
One Day: $9.00.
Three Days: $15.00.
Seven Days: $20.00.

FastPasses: allow monthly unlimited riding for cable cars, streetcars,  
buses, and BART (within SF).
Adult (ages 18-64): $45.00.
Youth (ages 5-17): $10.00.
Senior (ages 65+) and Disabled: $10.00.

If you are in a hurry, you need to be prepared to ride outside and  
even cling to the side of the Car.

BART will not really help you. If you walk to Embarcadero, you might  
as well walk to the Hotel.
http://www.bart.gov/stations/closest.aspx

Or, you could take a Muni bus - I think that the F Market & Wharves  
line is what you want.
http://www.sfmta.com/cms/asystem/routelist.php

Note that all of the above will stop working at some point in the  
evening...

Marshall

---

From: "Spencer Dawkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:49:34 -0500

I did as Joe suggested from my hotel at Fisherman's Wharf to the Muscone 
Center for JavaOne several years ago, and it was actually a lot of fun.

> Powell and O'Farrell which, if you walk at the pace they assume and  don't 
> have to wait for the cable car will take you 28 minutes.
>

I may be dreaming here, but I'm remembering that a cab ride across the 
peninsula (say, from Fisherman's Wharf to the Hilton) was something like $5 
last September, so if you get wrapped up in a really fascinating bar bof 
until 2 AM, after the cable cars stop running, that's not a horrible thing, 
either.

Thanks,

Spencer

---

From: Bob Hinden <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:52:08 -0700

> (is there city URL with details on the links etc)

Google Maps has nice directions via public transport or walking.  For  
example:

   http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Fishermans+Wharf,+San+Francisco,+CA+94133&daddr=333+O'Farrell+Street,+San+Francisco,+CA+94102+(San+Francisco+Hilton+%26+Towers)&hl=en&geocode=%3BFTKSQAId6yq0-CGOWutedU_WKQ&mra=cc&rtol=0,1&dirflg=r&date=03%2F10%2F09&time=8:48am&ttype=dep&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=&tline=&sll=37.797916,-122.414303&sspn=0.041778,0.070724&ie=UTF8&z=14&start=0

Bob

---

From: Paul Hoffman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:52:05 -0700

At 11:32 AM -0400 3/10/09, Joe Abley wrote:
>There's this thing called Google Maps you could try :-) It'll give you directions by car, by foot and by public transport.
>
>From Fisherman's Wharf to 333 O'Farrell the suggestion for public transport is take the Powell-Mason cable car from Taylor and Bay to Powell and O'Farrell which, if you walk at the pace they assume and don't have to wait for the cable car will take you 28 minutes.
>
>If you walk at a Google Standard Pace it'll take you 40 minutes. It's about 3km.

Maybe you didn't look at the map with the "terrain" feature turned on. There is a *massive* hill between the hotel and Fisherman's Wharf. If you can walk to Fisherman's Wharf in 40 minutes, you are in better shape than 95% of IETFers. The reason the cable cars were created was to go over the steep hills in San Francisco, not to be quaint.

If you truly want to walk, you can take Market Street to the Embarcadero and walk along the water. But this isn't all that nice. A bit more vertically challenging but much more fun would be Market to Montgomery (business district) to Columbus (Little Italy and Chinatown) to Bay. But tourists seem to love the SF cable cars, so consider them as well.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

---

From: "Charles E. Perkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 11:18:44 -0700

Hello folks,

Regards,
Charlie P.

---

From: Sandra Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:37:19 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)

> For folks coming from the Airport, that is of course a good plan. Many of us are coming from the Bay Area itself, and for some of us driving each day is impractical.

<snip>

Speaking of coming in from the Airport.

--Sandy

---

From: Henry Sinnreich <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 07:40:19 -0700

Take the Bart Yellow Line to Powell Street: It's a couple of blocks only to walk.
Henry

On 3/10/09 9:36 AM, "Marc Petit-Huguenin" <[email-masked]> wrote:

Thanks.

---

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:32:29 +0100

On 10 mar 2009, at 15.37, Sandra Murphy wrote:

> The transportation info on the IETF 74 web site says that the Powell  
> St Station is closest ("Blocks away" - mighty inspecific there).   
> The BART web site shows that as about 5 blocks away.  Any words as  
> to whether that's an OK walk and safe if one is arriving after dark  
> (probably 7pm-ish)?

...or 11PM-ish...a Friday...

    Patrik

---

From: Andy Bierman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:09:07 -0700

Patrik Fältström wrote:
>> St Station is closest ("Blocks away" - mighty inspecific there).  The 
>> BART web site shows that as about 5 blocks away.  Any words as to 
>> whether that's an OK walk and safe if one is arriving after dark 
>> (probably 7pm-ish)?
> 

maybe not alone, but YMMV.

It it a short walk, but there are some steep hills around there.

0) arrive Powell St. station
1) leave Hallidie Plaza exit near 5th st exit.
2) west on Eddy St
3) north on Mason St
4) hotel has an entrance on Ellis St.
    (don't need to walk up to O'Farrell St.)

(This is 2X shorter than the route shown on Google Earth)

Andy

---

From: Ignacio Goyret <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:12:01 -0700

>You're far more likely to get injured by a tourist's camera in the eye.

Site for SFMTA, MUNI et al.: http://www.sfmta.com/cms/home/sfmta.php
Muni and Cable Car Fares: http://www.sfmta.com/cms/mfares/basic.htm
Multi-day passes: http://www.sfmta.com/cms/mfares/passports.htm

A couple of words about the Cable Car: if you come from out of town,
by all means, you gotta try it. It is a lot of fun.

But, it is more expensive than regular buses ($5 vs $0.50). If you
plan on taking the cable car often, consider the multi-day passes.

Also, the two Powell lines (Powell-Mason and Powell-Hyde) are
the heaviest of the three cable car lines. It is not rare to
wait several hours for a ride (the waiting lines are usually
very long). A similar thing happens at the other ends of these
lines: Hyde and Bay (shortest walk to Pier 39) or Mason and Bay
(right next to Ghirardelli Square).

I don't want to discourage anyone to ride on the cable cars:
they are a lot of fun! Just plan for the waits.

If you just want to ride a cable car and go up and down the hills,
the easiest line to get on is the California line. There is hardly
any wait ever, even in the middle of summertime.

One really neat line is Line F, that runs from Pier 39 through
Embarcadero up to Market St and then on to the Castro. It only
runs historic cars and there aren't two cars alike.

Another thing for the people coming from other locales: legend
says that the most sold items in SF are sweaters, fleezes, etc.
It seems people tend to forget that SF sometimes gets a bit nippy...
Just remember Mark Twain's quote (*):
     "The coldest winter I ever saw was the summer I spent
      in San Francisco"
'nough said. :-)

Cheers,
-Ignacio

(*) Not verified as Twain's. See http://www.twainquotes.com/SanFrancisco.html

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:17:34 -0400

> ...or 11PM-ish...a Friday...

This is just a tourists impression, so YMMV, and pay attention to what  
you see around you.

However, the Union Sq area in my experience is busy with people  
walking around until well after 11:00 PM on most Fridays, and I have  
never had any problems there.

For the most street traffic, from the Bart station I would walk on  
Powell (the Cable Car route) 1 block uphill to O'Farrell, turn left  
and walk the 2 blocks to the hotel.

Marshall

> <PGP.sig><ATT00001.txt>

---

From: Bob Hinden <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:49:23 -0700

> never had any problems there.

Right, San Francisco is not a city where they roll up the sidewalks  
when it gets dark.

Bob

---

From: Stephan Wenger <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:18:10 -0700

Be careful in the Eddy/Ellis neighborhoods: this is the area which was
described here as "seedy".
Stephan

---

From: Thomas Walsh <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:11:20 -0400

I basically concur with Paul's advice.  Although I do not know San
Francisco well, I do know you should check with the hotel staff before
you start walking toward any destination to ensure you will be taking a
safe route.  There are many wonderful sights and places in San
Francisco, but if you venture out on foot be sure you have thoroughly
checked the safety of the route you plan to follow.

As Paul noted, the direct walking path between the Hotel and Civic
Center is seedy and I would never recommend it as it is potentially
dangerous.  His suggested route from Civic Center via Market to Mason is
much better, but still not pleasant.  I walked this route in the other
direction with my wife one night between Union Square and the Symphony
(via Mason, Market and Civic Center) and wished I had taken a taxi.  

The same warning applies for walking directly from the Hotel to Davies
Hall where the San Francisco Symphony plays.  Do not do it.  You are
much better off and safer to take a taxi there.

On the other hand, the area around the hotel, Union Square, etc. are
just fine.  

If you are not sure, please ask at the hotel.

Tom

> From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 8:03 AM
> To: Sandra Murphy
> Cc: [email-masked]
St
> that's an OK walk and safe if one is arriving after dark (probably
7pm-
> ish)?
> Note, however, if you are at the next stop south, Civic Center,
walking to
> the hotel still will not take you long but you will go through some
very
> seedy neighborhoods. In this case, you are better off walking up
Market
> Street to Mason and then going up to the hotel. This part of Market
Street
> is seedy, but quite busy and therefore only nominally dangerous
(tripping
> over drunks and such).

---

From: Vince Fuller <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:36:13 -0700

> (via Mason, Market and Civic Center) and wished I had taken a taxi.  

Walking from the Powell street BART station to the Hilton via Powell and
Geary or O'Farrell should be perfectly safe during all but the latest hours
of the night. That section of Geary goes through Union Square and the theater
district and is lined on both sides by shops, theaters, restaurants, and lots
of people. The intersection of Powell and Market is also the downtown terminus
of the cable car line that runs to Fisherman's Wharf, so it tends to be
swarming with tourists who are looking to ride the country's only "moving
national landmark". There is also a big shopping center across the street, so
there will be lots of non-homeless people wandering around there, too.

The walking route from Civic Center to the Hilton, will be rather more
seedy, particularly around 6th and Market; that area is called the Tenderloin
and is not one of San Francisco's most scenic neighborhoods.

Market Street will have some seedy sections but should be generally safe
during daylight hours. In fact, the same goes for most, if not all, of the
streets near the Hilton; the biggest "danger" will be panhandlers asking you
for money.

	--Vince

---

From: Huub van Helvoort <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:10:50 +0100

Hi Marshall,

> Yes, of course. You can walk all the way up Taylor or Mason or...

This morning I walked it the other direction with a short detour
to Lomabard "Crookedest" street. Took me 45 min.

> It is a ways, over some significant hills, and some great views.

Indeed.

> Or, you could walk to Embarcadero and then up Market  (No Hills).

This is how I returned. The weather was nice and the wind in
the back  ;-)

A good way to get rid of any jet legs...

Cheers, Huub.

-- 
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