Subject: [96attendees] IETF Berlin registration, VAT and non-profit organizations

From: Alexandre PETRESCU <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:53:41 +0200

Hi,

I registered for the IETF Berlin and paid additional Value Added Tax (VAT).

But I work for a non-profit research and technology organization - could 
the VAT get reimbursed somehow? (and if yes why isn't it deduced in the 
first place).

Yours,

Alex Petrescu

---

From: Job Snijders <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:57:40 +0200

Hi,

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 02:53:41PM +0200, Alexandre PETRESCU wrote:
> But I work for a non-profit research and technology organization - could the
> VAT get reimbursed somehow? (and if yes why isn't it deduced in the first
> place).

You should consult with your accountant or some other financial advisor.

Kind regards,

Job

---

From: Alexandre PETRESCU <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 10:28:00 +0200

The amount per person (around 120 United States Dollars - why not Euros, 
which country's conversion rate) seems high for one registration but 
very low compared to the effort needed to recover it.

There should be VAT exemption applied at the source, otherwise Germany 
wins undeserved money.

Alexandre Petrescu,
Ingénieur Chercheur, AS,
CEA-SAC/DRT/LIST/DIASI/LSC,
[email-masked], tél 0169089223.

---

From: "Harish Chowdhary" <[email-masked]>
Date: 13 Jul 2016 09:26:59 -0000

Hi,I am also working for a not for profit organization.Kindly suggest a way to refund the VAT somehow.Thanks,Harish ChowdharyFrom: Alexandre PETRESCU &lt;[email-masked]&gt;Sent: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 14:49:31To: Job Snijders &lt;[email-masked]&gt;Cc: [email-masked]: Re: [96attendees] IETF Berlin registration, VAT and non-profit organizationsThe amount per person (around 120 United States Dollars - why not Euros, which country&#39;s conversion rate) seems high for one registration but very low compared to the effort needed to recover it.There should be VAT exemption applied at the source, otherwise Germany wins undeserved money.
Alexandre Petrescu,
Ing&eacute;nieur Chercheur, AS,
CEA-SAC/DRT/LIST/DIASI/LSC,
[email-masked], t&eacute;l 0169089223.

Le 11/07/2016 &agrave; 14:57, Job Snijders a &eacute;crit&nbsp;:
Hi,

But I work for a non-profit research and technology organization - could the
VAT get reimbursed somehow? (and if yes why isn&#39;t it deduced in the first
place).

Kind regards,

Job

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---

From: Alexandre PETRESCU <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 11:34:03 +0200

The advice I got on this list is to go contact my local accountant with 
this FAQ:

https://www.ietf.org/meeting/96/vat-faq.html

Yours,

Alexandre Petrescu,
Ingénieur Chercheur, AS,

Le 13/07/2016 à 11:26, Harish Chowdhary a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I am also working for a not for profit organization.Kindly suggest a 
> way to refund the VAT somehow.
>
> Thanks,
> Harish Chowdhary
>
> From: Alexandre PETRESCU <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 14:49:31
> To: Job Snijders <[email-masked]>
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [96attendees] IETF Berlin registration, VAT and 
> non-profit organizations
>
> The amount per person (around 120 United States Dollars - why not 
> Euros, which country's conversion rate) seems high for one 
> registration but very low compared to the effort needed to recover it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> 96attendees mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/96attendees 
> <//prolinks.rediffmailpro.com/cgi-bin/prored.cgi?red=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eietf%2Eorg%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F96attendees&rediffng=0>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 96attendees mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/96attendees

---

From: Saku Ytti <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 12:58:34 +0300

On 13 July 2016 at 12:26, Harish Chowdhary <[email-masked]> wrote:
> I am also working for a not for profit organization.Kindly suggest a way to
> refund the VAT somehow.

I'm curious, why is this suddenly problem for the IETF invoice itself,
not for other costs incurred. Generally tourists cannot recover hotel
bills, coffee cup, metro ticket etc., but can recover VAT from goods
exported out of EU.

However, if this is business trip, you can recover pretty much
everything, as they are all occupational expenses (ostensibly you are
only there, as you need to be, to enable your income).
In practice how this has worked for me, for every EU employer I've had
is that I get obviously all expenses paid by my employer. And they
then recover the VATs. It's something I don't have to know or care
about, unless I happen to be the employer. If you are the employer,
and you don't know how to do this, then accountant is better bet than
IETF, unless we start VAT-WG.

-- 
  ++ytti

---

From: Jerome Martinez <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 12:21:47 +0200

> IETF, unless we start VAT-WG.

My accountant said that it would be a lot better if I get an invoice 
without VAT, as it should be between businesses from 2 different EU 
countries and providing their EU VAT numbers (and as I use to do when I 
invoice a business in another EU country). It would be a lot better for 
everyone if IETF does not bill the VAT, less paperwork and no money to 
pay in advance (waiting for reimbursement from the country which may 
come later or never, and additional cost from the accountant for doing 
the paperwork). Maybe there are specific rules for events like IETF 
which forbids to do as any other B2B in that case, but the FAQ does not 
say that. Maybe the FAQ about VAT could be a bit improved with more 
explanations about the reasons the VAT is invoiced for businesses (or 
non profit organizations, this is not a source of difference, the 
difference is if you have a EU VAT number or not) .

So, now we get people saying to see with accountant and accountant 
saying to see with IETF.

Looks like that the main question is : must IETF invoice VAT, which is 
something it is not expected to do in the case a EU VAT number (and/or 
if it is an US business) is provided?

---

From: Saku Ytti <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 14:09:58 +0300

On 13 July 2016 at 13:21, Jerome Martinez <[email-masked]> wrote:

> My accountant said that it would be a lot better if I get an invoice without
> VAT, as it should be between businesses from 2 different EU countries and

By better they mean easier to them. But you're not gonna get your
flight, cab, metro, hotel,  restaurant, coffee without VAT, but you
can still recover those VATs too. I see no point making the IETF
invoice a special case.

Or are you happy to leave VAT for other purchases except IETF conference?

-- 
  ++ytti

---

From: Jerome Martinez <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:25:38 +0200

Le 13/07/2016 à 13:09, Saku Ytti a écrit :
> By better they mean easier to them.

They don't care, they invoice me for extra work. It is just an advice.

>   But you're not gonna get your

I do it low cost and the VAT on the other bills is lower than the cost 
for retrieving them and/or the cost of being refunded, so no I am not 
happy but I do what costs me the less (=I don't reclaim VAT for that 
tiny amount). IETF conference VAT is the thing that makes VAT refund 
"possible" for me (=above the minimum amount for refund) and as a very 
small business paying an external accounting service, being billed the 
VAT from IETF means that I have the choice between doing nothing and 
lose 100% of the VAT, paying my accountant for doing the paperwork and 
lose e.g. 25-50% of the VAT due to paperwork and tracking; I just say 
that having a classic B2B invoice without VAT would permit me (ad 
others) to save 100% of the VAT.
(and now the time of writing this email is some time too so money, in 
all cases being invoiced with VAT costs me something).

Just be aware that we are not all supported by big companies spending a 
lot for IETF conferences and having a dedicated accountant happy to have 
more work for free.

---

From: "Olle E. Johansson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:38:01 +0200

> On 13 Jul 2016, at 12:21, Jerome Martinez <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> My accountant said that it would be a lot better if I get an invoice without VAT, as it should be between businesses from 2 different EU countries and providing their EU
That’s the default, but does NOT apply to conferences, music concerts and similar events where the service
is produced locally and consumed locally, it’s not exported. I’ve had numerous discussions with VAT authorities 
in multiple countries about that, as it unfortunately applies to my trainings as well.

For an IETF conference you have to pay the local VAT, and then reclaim it in the EU country you live in.

Yes, this is bad for everyone.

/O

---

From: Jerome Martinez <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:45:13 +0200

Le 13/07/2016 à 13:38, Olle E. Johansson a écrit :
> [...]

Thanks for the explanation, now I understand better the difference 
between what I use to see (it is exported) and IETF VAT. I actually 
didn't get it because I pay it from my country (I pay restaurant and so 
on locally).
I guess it should be added to the VAT FAQ so people don't try anymore to 
understand the reason they are billed the VAT and don't use to be billed 
the VAT when they pay from their country (before going to the conference)

So great, more paperwork and more money for the accountant.

---

From: Alexandre PETRESCU <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 10:42:56 +0200

Should I request anything from the IETF Registration Desk now while I am 
in Berlin?  (like a VAT proof or such, to be used later in the 
reimbursement process).

Yours,

Alexandre Petrescu,
Ingénieur Chercheur, AS,

Le 13/07/2016 à 13:45, Jerome Martinez a écrit :
>> is produced locally and consumed locally, it’s not exported. I’ve had 
>> numerous discussions with VAT authorities
> didn't get it because I pay it from my country (I pay restaurant and 
> so on locally).
> I guess it should be added to the VAT FAQ so people don't try anymore 
> to understand the reason they are billed the VAT and don't use to be 
> billed the VAT when they pay from their country (before going to the 
> conference)
>
>> For an IETF conference you have to pay the local VAT, and then 
>> reclaim it in the EU country you live in.
>>