Subject: Re: 0. General - Spam survey [was Re: [Asrg] Help with academic research survey.]

From: "Alan DeKok" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:55:27 -0500

Markus Stumpf <[email-masked]> wrote:
> We receive enough complaints about mailinglists of customers that
> are strictly double opt-in (and where I have logs that they have confirmed
> per eMail) from people that "cannot remember having subscribed".
...
> Not having enough brain or not being able to track which lists someone
> has subscribed to is not a valid base for marking a message spam, IMHO.

  Going back to the protocols (rather than social issues) this problem
could be addressed by some kind of token exchange.  The difficulty
lies in desiging a system which is accountable to, and believable by
both parties.

  Alan DeKok.

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Asrg mailing list
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From: "Mark E. Mallett" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 17:12:07 -0500

> lies in desiging a system which is accountable to, and believable by

I agree.  The problem may be that people forget, but the solution
isn't to rant against those people.  It's to realize that that is a
fact of life, and make it so people don't have to use their memories;
but to rely on tools, records, and methods that (hopefully) come
into play without always having to specifically be aware of them.

How's that for a content-free observation :-)

mm

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From: Markus Stumpf <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:05:10 +0100

> into play without always having to specifically be aware of them.

This methods exists in the very medium they used to subscribe.
It's called email and is delivered in form of a notification
message, containing a confirmation of the subscription, a description
of the list and detailed help/unsubscribe information. The problem is
they throw it away and I don't think any other "tool" or "record" will
be of more success as they will throw it away, also.

If they sign a contract to get some yellow press magazines each month they
keep the contract, because it costs money. If they subscribe to a mailing
list they don't, as it doesn't cost them money (usually). If they no longer
want to be part of the mailing list they cry "spam spam", because that's
currently more conveniant than to read the header, find the
   List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg>,
	<mailto:[email-masked]?subject=unsubscribe>
and unsubscribe themself.

Spam is trendy and /the/ bad guy, so serious mailing list managers
(humans) are willing to spend a lot of time and effort to not to be
called spammers and that is what those people currently abuse. I've seen
spam complaints from people that had received the weekly newsletter for
two years after double opt-in and then cried "spam" and "I never subscribed
to this".

	\Maex

-- 
SpaceNet AG            | Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 | Fon: +49 (89) 32356-0
Research & Development |       D-80807 Muenchen    | Fax: +49 (89) 32356-299
"The security, stability and reliability of a computer system is reciprocally
 proportional to the amount of vacuity between the ears of the admin"

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From: "Mark E. Mallett" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:10:57 -0500

> be of more success as they will throw it away, also.

Indeed, but that's all part of relying on each participant to do the
right thing over time.  That's not the kind of thing I meant.  That's
more of a description of the problem than the solution.  When millions
of people have to learn even a little bit, or remember a little bit,
or rely on their own records, etc., in order to interoperate correctly,
you'll get millions of failures and problems.  Thus the part of the
sentence about "... that come into play without people having to be
aware of them."  You want reality, fact, verifiability, and
traceability: this can't be up to every individual's record-keeping
ability or their ability to do the right thing in any way.

> keep the contract, because it costs money.

Believe me, people (on both sides) manage to forget agreements
where money is involved, too.  

> If they subscribe to a mailing

Yep.  Agreed.  Blaming them doesn't solve anything, though.  I mean
yes, they are wrong.  They'll be wrong the next time, too.  Or
somebody else will.

> two years after double opt-in and then cried "spam" and "I never subscribed

Agreed.  I've even seen it from people like you and me, people who
should know better.  I'm confident enough of my own ability to make
mistakes that I'm sure I could do it, too.  Relying on every person in
the world (even the smart ones) to behave correctly is futile.  Maybe
especially the smart ones: heaven help you said person is an expert who
couldn't possibly be wrong.

mm

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From: "Jon Kyme" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:36:01 +0000

> be of more success as they will throw it away, also.

Think harder.

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