Subject: Re: PaceDateModified

From: Danny Ayers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:56:32 +0200

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 07:16:32 -0700, Walter Underwood <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> I think there are a couple of modes for Atom feeds.
> 
> One is the cached, loose-consistency, bandwidth-efficient distribution
> mode. DateUpdated is exactly what is needed for this. This mode is a
> REST architecture approach. Also, most consumers in this mode only
> need the most recent content. 

But that's just it - you can't tell the most recent content from
atom:updated, only the version  the publisher last considered to be a
significant revision.

Accurate archiving in these circumstances is a non-starter. The only
changes that can be detected are those declared by the publisher, or
which by luck happen to have been intercepted in real time in live
feeds.

I can accept that archiving may be considered an edge case. But not
being able to tell which of several entries is the most recent is
close to the core of syndication, whether or not certain individual
aggregators have the capability to use the information.

Cheers,
Danny.

-- 

http://dannyayers.com

---

From: "Roger B." <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:43:59 -0500

> atom:updated, only the version  the publisher last considered to be a

Danny: You're over-thinking it.

(a) The definition of "significant" is left to the publisher.

(b) Last I looked at the list of vendor-specific dates on the wiki,
not much of anyone had anything more subtle than a plain ol' "last
modified" date for tracking changes.

Put them both together and it suggests that the data you're looking
for will probably end up in atom:updated. In practical terms,
atom:updated is simply a version of atom:modified that gives the
publisher the option *not* to indicate a change.

--
Roger Benningfield
http://admin.support.journurl.com/

---

From: Dare Obasanjo <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:02:24 -0700 (PDT)

> publisher the option *not* to indicate a change.

Exactly. 

=====
THINGS TO DO IF I BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD #222
I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!"

_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. 
http://messenger.yahoo.com

---

From: Danny Ayers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:08:11 +0200

> > publisher the option *not* to indicate a change.

I look forward to hearing your responses to Bob's last post, about the
revisions being considered equivalent.

Dare, how do you propose to handle atom:updated in RSS Bandit?
Displaying every revision as a new entry, even if (as Robert's
proposing) it only contains spelling corrections?

Cheers,
Danny.

-- 

http://dannyayers.com

---

From: Dare Obasanjo <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:19:14 -0700 (PDT)

> revisions being considered equivalent.

OK. 

> proposing) it only contains spelling corrections?

Of course not. I'll update the date field of the post.
I might also make the post italicized if it has
already been read. I'll have to see how often people
use atom:updated in feeds to see if it makes the UI
more annoying or not to italicize updated posts. 

Given that RSS Bandit always uses the most recently
fetched version of the content for an entry, the only
thing atom:updated adds is an explict directive to
also update the date field in the UI. 

=====

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

---

From: Robert Sayre <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:23:20 -0400

> proposing) it only contains spelling corrections?

I'm not "proposing" anything. As the publisher, I choose what 
constitutes an important update.

I sure hope your aggregator doesn't alert you every time I realize 
there's a spelling or grammatical error in something I've written. That 
would be an extremely tedious way to observe well-formed sentences 
emerge from my mind.

Robert Sayre

---

From: Danny Ayers <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:51:43 +0200

atom:updated is for 
[[
...a change to the feed was made that the publisher wishes to
bring_to_the_attention_of_subscribers.
]]

(my underscoring)

Publisher side:

"I sure hope your aggregator doesn't alert you every time I realize
there's a spelling or grammatical error in something I've written."

Consumer side:

"I'll update the date field of the post."

My, this must be a record for how soon a spec can be ignored...

Cheers,
Danny.

-- 

http://dannyayers.com

---

From: Graham Parks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:58:46 +0100

> publisher the option *not* to indicate a change.

If they do that, they'd only be compliant with the spec if their 
intention was "YOU MUST SEE THIS SPELLING CORRECTION". I'd hope what 
they'd do is put the plain publishing date in there, ie atom:issued, and 
have it never change.

(FYI: "The "atom:updated" element is a Date construct indicating the 
most recent instant in time when a change to the entry was made that the 
publisher wishes to bring to the attention of subscribers.")

Graham

---

From: Robert Sayre <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:44:43 -0400

Graham Parks wrote:
> intention was "YOU MUST SEE THIS SPELLING CORRECTION". 

That's not my interpretation of the spec. atom:updated means that a 
change occurred that publisher wishes to record (aka "bring to the 
attention of subscribers"). It doesn't communicate anything about the 
urgency of the change.

Robert Sayre

---

From: Dare Obasanjo <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:07:59 -0700 (PDT)

> they'd do is put the plain publishing date in there,

Ummm, if the publisher did not expect subscribers to
pick up the changes in the typo then what exactly is
the point of fixing the typo? 

=====

---

From: Graham Parks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:54:51 +0100

Robert Sayre wrote:

> wishes to record (aka "bring to the attention of subscribers")

How are these at all synonymous?

The spec explicitly says that changes occuring at the same time as a 
change of atom:updated are meant to be brought to the attention of the 
user. A publisher that used Last Modified as atom:updated would be 
saying "I want my subscribers to be shown I've corrected that typo".

Graham

---

From: Robert Sayre <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:26:22 -0400

> saying "I want my subscribers to be shown I've corrected that typo".

Are you saying that the date field implies some sort of interface 
behavior? If that's your definition, we should change it, because 
behavioral directives in data formats are evil.

My interpretation of "bring to attention" is "record the date in the 
format, and transfer it to the subscriber".

Robert Sayre

---

From: Graham Parks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:15:12 +0100

> the point of fixing the typo? 

Where did I say they shouldn't "pick up" the changes? Of course they 
should update their databases etc, and show the new version if the user 
selects the entry again, but atom:updated should only change if the 
publisher needs/wants to bring the changes to the user's attention.

Graham

---

From: Graham Parks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:32:47 +0100

> format, and transfer it to the subscriber".

If that was what was meant, that's what it would say. "bring to the 
attention of subscribers" definitely implies much more than recording 
the change.

This isn't a "behavioural directive". All it says is that the publisher 
would like to bring it the subscribers attention - there's no 
requirement for the UA to follow through.

Graham

---

From: Robert Sayre <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:55:31 -0400

> requirement for the UA to follow through.

Then it doesn't mean "YOU MUST SEE THIS SPELLING CORRECTION" does it?

"Bring to the attention of subscribers" is bogus language. I'll write a 
Pace to get it out of there.

Robert Sayre

---

From: "Roger B." <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:07:34 -0500

> atom:updated should only change if the

Graham: Assuming atom:updated is the sole "changed" date in the Atom
core, I suspect many publishers will decide that it's better to bring
all changes to the user's attention than none. That's certainly what
I'd be inclined to do when putting together a default Atom template.

Personally, I think we'd be better off with an "atom:entry must
contain a 'changed' date, either atom:modified or atom:updated" rule
than make either of them mandatory to the exclusion of the other. But
we've already approved updated as a required element, and modified has
little traction... so look for the former to be used like the latter.

---

From: Tim Bray <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:34:54 -0700

> publisher the option *not* to indicate a change.

Exactly.  Mind you, people could lie with atom:modified too.  Filthy 
creatures, publishers. -Tim

---

From: Tim Bray <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:59:56 -0700

> the point of fixing the typo?

You don't feel it's worth suggesting that subscribers who read it 
should re-read, but you'd like people who pick it up in future not to 
have to read around the typo.  I do this all the time on 'ongoing'. 
-Tim

---

From: Eric Scheid <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:24:09 +1000

> the point of fixing the typo?

Didn't I already ask that?

Fact is, it seems people do like to fix typos.

I use the diffs function in NNW, and while I do see lots of posts with
significant updates, I also see lots of posts where dumb quotes get smarty,
typos get fixed, egregious line breaks removed, etc, etc, etc.

e.

---

From: Asbjørn Ulsberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:06:48 +0200

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:59:56 -0700, Tim Bray <[email-masked]> wrote:

> You don't feel it's worth suggesting that subscribers who read it should  
> re-read, but you'd like people who pick it up in future not to have to  
> read around the typo.  I do this all the time on 'ongoing'. -Tim

How do you know which version of your entry, which has the same  
atom:updated date and the same atom:id, is the most recent and correct one?

This is not a good question if your entry is read in your feed only, but  
as Danny Ayers showed with his examples, one might pick up the same entry  
in several different feeds. So, the above question needs to be answered,  
imo.

-- 
Asbjørn Ulsberg         -=|=-        [email-masked]
«He's a loathsome offensive brute, yet I can't look away»

---

From: Eric Scheid <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:35:41 +1000

> in several different feeds. So, the above question needs to be answered,

also to consider is the odd effect of seeing a well written entry getting
replaced with one with subtle spelling errors ... the reader may well assume
you meant it that way and then send you email "correcting" you on your
apparent bone-headed mis-spellings.

I still get nit-picky email for stuff I wrote ages ago which I just wish I
could fix and be done with.

e.