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boundary="_000_BY3PR05MB80812CA9D7334F08C0C3E3C4C7269BY3PR05MB8081namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY3PR05MB8081.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 99ff69f0-298b-4a64-0a9f-08d9e5926563 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Feb 2022 14:51:57.7132 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: v2d00C2OqVM5cQmMVR3InnwkwUxbvVfgDol53hQOw6UMHxM5rPjkHaSTEKTiTgpNTfDyvizyNsxspPq/Y6zVpw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR05MB3170 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: zndgWSOxW2gxntzyPS_AGZIGOd_n3oBB X-Proofpoint-GUID: zndgWSOxW2gxntzyPS_AGZIGOd_n3oBB X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-02-01_07,2022-02-01_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 impostorscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=748 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202010083 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 14:52:08 -0000 --_000_BY3PR05MB80812CA9D7334F08C0C3E3C4C7269BY3PR05MB8081namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Support and not aware of any IPR Yours Irrespectively, John Juniper Business Use Only From: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) Sent: Monday, January 31, 2022 8:58 AM To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org Subject: WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df= -recovery-03 [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi WG, This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evp= n-fast-df-recovery-03 [1]. This poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022. We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th= is Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF = IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details). If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please re= spond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any releva= nt undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all th= e Authors and Contributors. There is currently no IPR disclosed. If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly= respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i= n conformance with IETF rules. We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. Please indi= cate if you are aware of any implementations. Thank you, Matthew & Stephane [1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF El= ection [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw<= https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1= tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RDo1jBQ_9TVQufIGl4q2LkZntpl8u_71IcEW= LppGsI3bAeWWBMjbrVzjRJ6-XX8$> --_000_BY3PR05MB80812CA9D7334F08C0C3E3C4C7269BY3PR05MB8081namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Support and not aware of any IPR

 

Yours Irrespectively,

 

John

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew= .bocci@nokia.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2022 8:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-= fast-df-recovery-03

 

<= span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",= sans-serif;color:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]=

 

Hi WG,

 

This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call= on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 [1].

 

This poll runs until Monday 14th February= 2022.

 

We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed= IPR that applies to this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed i= n compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for mo= re details).

If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of t= his document, please respond to this email and indicate whether or not you = are aware of any relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress with= out answers from all the Authors and Contributors. 

There is currently no IPR disclosed.

 

If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor,= then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has n= ot yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.<= o:p>

 

We are also polling for any existing implementation = as per [2]. Please indicate if you are aware of any implementations.

 

Thank you,

Matthew & Stephane

 

[1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF Election

[2] https://mai= larchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw=

 

 

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Support the publication of draft. Mankamana From: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) Date: Monday, January 31, 2022 at 5:58 AM To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org , bess@ietf.org Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org Subject: WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df= -recovery-03 Hi WG, This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evp= n-fast-df-recovery-03 [1]. This poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022. We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th= is Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF = IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details). If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please re= spond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any releva= nt undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all th= e Authors and Contributors. There is currently no IPR disclosed. If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly= respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i= n conformance with IETF rules. We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. Please indi= cate if you are aware of any implementations. Thank you, Matthew & Stephane [1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF El= ection [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw --_000_BYAPR11MB272513EE236E8199E915796BDF269BYAPR11MB2725namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Support the publication of draft.

 

Mankamana

 

From: Bocc= i, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Date: Monday, January 31, 2022 at 5:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org <draft-ietf-be= ss-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org><= br> Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-= fast-df-recovery-03

Hi WG,

 

This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call= on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 [1].

 

This poll runs until Monday 14th February= 2022.

 

We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed= IPR that applies to this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed i= n compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for mo= re details).

If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of t= his document, please respond to this email and indicate whether or not you = are aware of any relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress with= out answers from all the Authors and Contributors. 

There is currently no IPR disclosed.

 

If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor,= then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has n= ot yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.<= o:p>

 

We are also polling for any existing implementation = as per [2]. Please indicate if you are aware of any implementations.

 

Thank you,

Matthew & Stephane

 

[1] draft-ietf-be= ss-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF Election

[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/c= G3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw

 

 

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boundary="_000_BY3PR08MB70606FC1FACFF7AEEDCDC92AF7269BY3PR08MB7060namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY3PR08MB7060.namprd08.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3bb74379-c9e9-46c5-c1f3-08d9e59c2f19 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Feb 2022 16:02:01.6262 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: rROpFCoHCraicXJ1DPoZd4SIbGNo5ztoBEcbIJSg6a3FGhBiwNgTh42Q9RXWBzTtQXCteyNkbSM6m52xVJVIPA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR0801MB2178 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 16:02:25 -0000 --_000_BY3PR08MB70606FC1FACFF7AEEDCDC92AF7269BY3PR08MB7060namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, I=92m not aware of any relevant undisclosed IPR. Thanks. Jorge From: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) Date: Monday, January 31, 2022 at 2:58 PM To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org , bess@ietf.org Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org Subject: WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df= -recovery-03 Hi WG, This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evp= n-fast-df-recovery-03 [1]. This poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022. We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th= is Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF = IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details). If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please re= spond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any releva= nt undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all th= e Authors and Contributors. There is currently no IPR disclosed. If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly= respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i= n conformance with IETF rules. We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. Please indi= cate if you are aware of any implementations. Thank you, Matthew & Stephane [1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF El= ection [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw --_000_BY3PR08MB70606FC1FACFF7AEEDCDC92AF7269BY3PR08MB7060namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi everyone,

 

I=92m not aware of any relevant undisclosed IPR.

 

Thanks.

Jorge

 

From: Bocci, Mat= thew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Date: Monday, January 31, 2022 at 2:58 PM
To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org <draft-ietf-be= ss-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org><= br> Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-= fast-df-recovery-03

Hi WG,

 

This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evpn= -fast-df-recovery-03 [1].

 

This poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022.=

 

We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that app= lies to this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance = with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document,= please respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of = any relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all the Authors and Contributors. = ;<= /p>

There is currently no IPR disclosed.

 

If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please = explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been d= isclosed in conformance with IETF rules.

 

We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2].&n= bsp;Please indicate if you are aware of any implementations.

 

Thank you,=

Matthew & Stephane

 

[1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF Election

[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg= 56SEdkjqDpw=

 

 

--_000_BY3PR08MB70606FC1FACFF7AEEDCDC92AF7269BY3PR08MB7060namp_-- From nobody Tue Feb 1 10:56:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3482D3A1A2F; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:56:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dur0YX5NmCNt; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA72D3A1A32; 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boundary="_000_BL3PR02MB813082C688CF2F86BF386D76AF269BL3PR02MB8130namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 18:56:37 -0000 --_000_BL3PR02MB813082C688CF2F86BF386D76AF269BL3PR02MB8130namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support publication and am not aware of undisclosed IPR Cisco IOS-XR has implemented the procedures in this draft Regards, Luc Andr=E9 Luc Andr=E9 Burdet | Cisco | laburdet.ietf@gmail.com | Tel: +1 613 254= 4814 From: BESS on behalf of "Acee Lindem (acee)" Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 10:13 To: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , "draft-ietf-be= ss-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-e= vpn-fast-df-recovery-03 I=92ve reread the draft and support publication. Thanks, Acee From: BESS on behalf of "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB= )" Date: Monday, January 31, 2022 at 9:00 AM To: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-= fast-df-recovery-03 Hi WG, This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evp= n-fast-df-recovery-03 [1]. This poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022. We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th= is Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF = IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details). If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please re= spond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any releva= nt undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all th= e Authors and Contributors. There is currently no IPR disclosed. If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly= respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i= n conformance with IETF rules. We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. Please indi= cate if you are aware of any implementations. Thank you, Matthew & Stephane [1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF El= ection [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw --_000_BL3PR02MB813082C688CF2F86BF386D76AF269BL3PR02MB8130namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I su= pport publication and am not aware of undisclosed IPR

Cisc= o IOS-XR has implemented the procedures in this draft

 

Regards,

Luc Andr=E9

 

Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisc= o  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com  |  Tel: +1 613 254 4814<= o:p>

 

 

From: BESS= <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Acee Lindem (acee)" = <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 10:13
To: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.= com>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" <dra= ft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" = <bess@ietf.org>
Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf= -bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03

 

I=92ve reread the draft and sup= port publication.

Thanks,

Acee

 

From: BESS= <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - G= B)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Date: Monday, January 31, 2022 at 9:00 AM
To: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" <d= raft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org"= ; <bess@ietf.org>
Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org> Subject: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bes= s-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03

&n= bsp;

Hi= WG,

&n= bsp;

Th= is email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 [1].

&n= bsp;

Th= is poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022.<= /p>

&n= bsp;

We= are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to this= Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IP= R rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

If= you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please resp= ond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant= undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all the Authors and Contributors. 

Th= ere is currently no IPR disclosed.

&n= bsp;

If= you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly r= espond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in = conformance with IETF rules.

&n= bsp;

We= are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. Please i= ndicate if you are aware of any implementations.

&n= bsp;

Th= ank you,

Ma= tthew & Stephane

&n= bsp;

[1= ] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-re= covery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF Election

[2= ] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56S= EdkjqDpw

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m2HNlH3C3v7m; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 17:39:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com (mail-pl1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBE2B3A1A48; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 17:39:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id h14so16928197plf.1; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 17:39:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; 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X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530LOAGrM9s3hbZA+wwwMOWfwDdZbEK4KJ2SOeDGY9eXKttzmWBe /hzSBCj2Z/ix9ykJ8JkhqENDUCF+OXH4NIuCJHk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCQfz1O5LR/LmBvVqd0N5qTW8XFdxL++mFs37AfpnVjBH+eaM6X65PZZLG8WB1n8eWjGC675f1Ags8s6UR6CE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:f681:: with SMTP id l1mr28123034plg.80.1643765957868; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 17:39:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6F482562-9903-450E-9387-4A5775CEB8D3@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6F482562-9903-450E-9387-4A5775CEB8D3@cisco.com> From: Gyan Mishra Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 20:39:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" Cc: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000033ffb05d6ff1616" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 01:39:25 -0000 --000000000000033ffb05d6ff1616 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I support publication. Thanks Gyan On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:14 PM Patrice Brissette (pbrisset) wrote: > I support publication and am not aware of undisclosed IPR. > > > > Implementation has been shipped on Cisco IOS-XR. > > Regards, > > Patrice Brissette, Principal Engineer > > Cisco Systems > > > > *http://e-vpn.io * > > *http://go2.cisco.com/evpn * > > > > > > > > > > *From: *"Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" > > > *Date: *Monday, January 31, 2022 at 08:58 > *To: *"draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" < > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" < > bess@ietf.org> > *Cc: *"bess-chairs@ietf.org" > *Subject: *WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 > *Resent-From: * > *Resent-To: *Patrice Brissette , , > , , Ali Sajassi < > sajassi@cisco.com> > *Resent-Date: *Monday, January 31, 2022 at 08:58 > > > > Hi WG, > > > > This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 > [1]. > > > > This poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022. > > > > We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to > this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with > IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details). > > If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please > respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any > relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from > all the Authors and Contributors. > > There is currently no IPR disclosed. > > > > If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please > explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been > disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. > > > > We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. Please > indicate if you are aware of any implementations. > > > > Thank you, > > Matthew & Stephane > > > > [1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF > Election > > > [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > -- *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com * *M 301 502-1347* --000000000000033ffb05d6ff1616 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I support publication.

Thanks=C2=A0

Gyan
On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:14 PM Patrice Bris= sette (pbrisset) <pbrisset=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

I support publication and am not aware of undisclosed IPR.

=C2=A0

Implementation has been = shipped on Cisco IOS-XR.

Regards,<= u>

Patrice B= rissette, Principal Engineer

Cisco Sys= tems

=C2=A0=

http://e-vpn.io=

http://go2.cisco.com/evpn<= /a>

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Date: Monday, January 31, 2022 at 08:58
To: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org>= , "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.or= g>
Cc: "= bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-= fast-df-recovery-03
Resent-From: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
Resent-To: Patrice Brissette <pbrisset@cisco.com>, <jdrake@juniper.net>, <jorge.rabadan@nokia.c= om>, <lbur= det@cisco.com>, Ali Sajassi <sajassi@cisco.com>
Resent-Date: Monday, January 31, 2022 at 08:58<= /p>

<= /u>=C2=A0

Hi W= G,

<= /u>=C2=A0

This= email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 [1].=

=C2= =A0

This= poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022.

=C2= =A0

We a= re also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to this D= ocument, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR = rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

If y= ou are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please respon= d to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant u= ndisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all the Authors and Contributors.=C2=A0

Ther= e is currently no IPR disclosed.<= /span>

=C2= =A0

If y= ou are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly res= pond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in co= nformance with IETF rules.=

=C2= =A0

We a= re also polling for any existing implementation as per [2].=C2=A0Please ind= icate if you are aware of any implementations.<= u>

=C2= =A0

Than= k you,

Matt= hew & Stephane

=C2= =A0

[1]= =C2=A0draft-ietf-bes= s-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF Election<= u>

[2]= =C2=A0https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SE= dkjqDpw

=C2= =A0

<= /u>=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Authors While going through this I have a couple of other comments: Please can you clean up the use of RFC2119 language, in particular capitali= zing SHOULD, MUST etc where appropriate. For example, I think the following= in Section 4.3 should be corrected: Ethernet Tag field value in EVPN Ethernet AD Sub-TLV, should be set according to the context: o For per-ES context, the Ethernet Tag field in the sub-TLV must be set to the reserved MAX-ET value [RFC7432] o For per-EVI context, the Ethernet Tag field in the sub-TLV must be set to the non-reserved value Thanks Matthew From: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) Date: Wednesday, 2 February 2022 at 16:00 To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp-ping@ietf.org Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org Subject: ID-Nits for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp-ping Hi Authors I am finally doing the document shepherds write up for this draft. ID Nits = throws up a few warnings, which I would appreciate if you could fix now bef= ore I request publication: https://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits?url=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/dra= ft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp-ping-06.txt Thanks Matthew --_000_VI1PR0701MB6991C6CAB00824AFBE8EA0E7EB279VI1PR0701MB6991_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Authors

 

While going through this I have a couple of other comments:

 

Please can you clean up the use of RFC2119 language, in particular = capitalizing SHOULD, MUST etc where appropriate. For example, I think the f= ollowing in Section 4.3 should be corrected:

 

Ethernet Tag field value in EVPN Ethernet =
AD Sub-TLV, should be set
   according to the context:
 
   o  For per-ES context, t=
he Ethernet Tag field in the sub-TLV must be
      set to the =
reserved MAX-ET value [RFC7432]
 
   o  For per-EVI context, =
the Ethernet Tag field in the sub-TLV must be
      set to the =
non-reserved value

 

 

Thanks

Matthew

 

From: Bocci, Matthew (Nok= ia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Date: Wednesday, 2 February 2022 at 16:00
To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp-ping@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-= lsp-ping@ietf.org>
Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: ID-Nits for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp-ping=

Hi Authors

 

I am finally doing the document shepherds write up for this draft. = ID Nits throws up a few warnings, which I would appreciate if you could fix= now before I request publication:

 

https://www.ietf.org/= tools/idnits?url=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp= -ping-06.txt

 

 

Thanks

 

Matthew

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Fri, 04 Feb 2022 09:50:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Anoop Ghanwani Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 09:50:07 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" Cc: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059e16605d734e20e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2022 17:50:27 -0000 --00000000000059e16605d734e20e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I support publication of the document as an RFC. However, I think there are some editorial nits that need to be addressed (see below). Anoop == Abstract performed via a simple signaling between the recovered PE and each PEs in the multi-homing group. -> performed via simple signaling between the recovered PE and each of the other PEs in the multi-homing group. Multiple sections multi-homing Ethernet Segment -> multi-homed Ethernet Segment Ethernet-Segment -> Ethernet Segment There are some instances of use of ES (section 3.2). Either ES should be spelled out and used throughout or, which is what I would do, replace the 2 instances of ES in Section 3.2 with Ethernet Segment. It would also be good to provide captions for all figures since it makes it easy to reference. Section 1 EVPN solution [RFC7432] -> The EVPN specification [RFC7432] and it is performed via a simple signaling between the recovered PE and each PE in the multi- homing group. -> and it is performed via simple signaling between the recovered PE and each of the other PEs in the multi- homing group. Section 2 The current state of art (Highest Random Weight) -> The current state of art HRW (Highest Random Weight) duplication of DF roles for a give VLAN is possible. -> duplication of DF roles for a given VLAN is possible. Section 3.1 - A simple uni-directional signaling is all needed -> - A simple uni-directional signaling is all that is needed - (e.g .NTP, PTP, etc.) -> - (e.g. NTP, PTP, etc.) Section 3.2 It would be good to explicitly explain the fields below the figure, e.g. Timestamp Seconds (32 bits): ... Timestamp Fractional Seconds (17 bits): ... (provide details on how this part is created) If this is omitted because it is in some other doc, then provide a reference. [Looks like the figure is wrong about length for Timestamp Fractional Seconds which is why it would help to have a description as above.] PEs in the ES [there are 2 instances] -> PEs attached to the Ethernet Segment want the DF type be of HRW -> want the DF type to be HRW "The use of a 32-bit seconds and 16-bit fractional seconds yields adequate precision of 15 microseconds (2^-16 s)." The figure shows 17 bits for fractional seconds. Now that I double check, the figure is wrong! It uses only 7 bits for the Type which looks like it should be 8 bits. So it looks like Timestamp Fractional Seconds should be 16 bits. Section 3.4 - PE2, it starts its 3sec peering timer as per RFC7432 -> - PE2, starts its 3 sec peering timer as per RFC7432 [RFC7432] aims of favouring traffic black hole over duplicate traffic (Missing period at end of sentence.) Spell out first use of NDF. becomes a no-op -> becomes a non-issue. The usage of SCT approach remedies to the exposed problem with the usage of peering timer. The 3 seconds timer window is shorthen to few milliseconds. -> The usage of SCT approach remedies the problem with the usage of the peering timer. The 3 second timer window is shortened to a few milliseconds. Section 3.5 modulus based -> modulo-based running an baseline DF election -> running a baseline DF election shall simply discard unrecognized new SCT BGP extended community. -> will simply disregard the new SCT BGP extended community. "...all PEs in the Ethernet-Segment may revert back to the RFC7432 timer approach." Is this a "may" or should it be a "must"? On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 5:58 AM Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) < matthew.bocci@nokia.com> wrote: > Hi WG, > > > > This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 > [1]. > > > > This poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022. > > > > We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to > this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with > IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details). > > If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please > respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any > relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from > all the Authors and Contributors. > > There is currently no IPR disclosed. > > > > If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please > explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been > disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. > > > > We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. Please > indicate if you are aware of any implementations. > > > > Thank you, > > Matthew & Stephane > > > > [1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF > Election > > > [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > --00000000000059e16605d734e20e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support publication of the document as an RFC.=C2= =A0 However, I think there are some editorial nits that need to be addresse= d (see below).

Anoop

= =3D=3D

Abstract

performed via a = simple signaling between the recovered PE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and each PEs in t= he multi-homing group.
->
performed via simple signaling between t= he recovered PE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and each of the other PEs in the multi-homi= ng group.


Multiple sections

multi-homing Ethernet Segment ->
multi-h= omed Ethernet Segment

Ethernet-Segment ->=C2=A0=
Ethernet Segment

There are some instanc= es of use of ES (section 3.2).=C2=A0 Either ES should be spelled out and us= ed throughout or, which is what I would do, replace the 2 instances of ES i= n Section 3.2 with Ethernet Segment.

It would also be good to provid= e captions for all figures since it makes it easy to reference.
<= br>
Section 1

EVPN solution [RFC7432]
->
The EVPN specif= ication [RFC7432]

and it is performed via a
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0simple signaling between the recovered PE and each PE in the mult= i-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0homing group.
->
and it is performed via
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0simple signaling between the recovered PE and each of the other P= Es in the multi-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0homing group.


Section 2

The current state = of art (Highest Random Weight)
->
The current state of art HRW (Hi= ghest Random Weight)

duplication of DF roles for a= give VLAN is possible.
->
duplication of DF roles for a given VLA= N is possible.


Sect=
ion 3.1

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- =C2=A0A simple uni-directional signaling is=
 all needed
->
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- =C2=A0A simple uni-directional signa=
ling is all that is needed

- =C2=A0(e.g .NTP, PTP, etc.)
->- =C2=A0(e.g. NTP, PTP, etc.)


Sec=
tion 3.2

It would be good to explicitly explain the field=
s below the figure, e.g.
Timestamp Seconds (32 bits): ...
Timestamp F=
ractional Seconds (17 bits): ... (provide details on how this part is creat=
ed)
If this is omitted because it is in some other doc, then provide a r=
eference.

[Looks like the figure is wrong about le=
ngth for Timestamp Fractional Seconds which is why it would help to have a =
description as above.]

PEs in the ES [there are 2 =
instances]=C2=A0
->
PEs attached to the Ethernet Seg=
ment

want the DF type be of HRW=C2=A0
->
want=
 the DF type to be HRW

"The use
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of=
 a 32-bit seconds and 16-bit fractional seconds yields adequate
=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0precision of 15 microseconds (2^-16 s)."

The figure =
shows 17 bits for fractional seconds.=C2=A0 Now that I double check, the fi=
gure is wrong!=C2=A0 It uses only 7 bits for the Type which looks like it s=
hould be 8 bits.=C2=A0 So it looks like Timestamp Fractional Seconds should=
 be 16 bits.


Section 3.4

=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0- =C2=A0PE2, it starts its 3sec peering timer as per RFC7432
->=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- =C2=A0PE2, starts its 3 sec peering timer as per RFC7432=


[RFC7432] aims of favouring traffic black hole over dup=
licate traffic
(Missing period at end of sentence.)

=

Spell out first use of NDF.

becomes a no-op
-&g=
t;
becomes a non-issue.

The usage of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SCT approac=
h remedies to the exposed problem with the usage of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0peering=
 timer.=C2=A0 The 3 seconds timer window is shorthen to few
=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0milliseconds.
->
The usage of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SCT approach reme=
dies the problem with the usage of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0peering timer.=C2=A0=
 The 3 second timer window is shortened to a few
=C2=A0 =C2=A0millisecon=
ds.


Section 3.5

=

modulus based
->
modulo-based

running an basel=
ine DF election
->
running a baseline DF election

sh=
all simply discard unrecognized new SCT BGP extended community.
->will simply disregard the new SCT BGP extended community.

&q=
uot;...all PEs in the Ethernet-Segment may revert back to the RFC7432 timer=
 approach."
Is this a "may" or should it be a "must&=
quot;?



--00000000000059e16605d734e20e--


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MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 10:08:47 -0800
From: Jeff Tantsura 
Thread-Topic: WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3240D8E3-BEB2-4E78-BA8F-1E3DFDC4F6E0@hxcore.ol>
References: 
To: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" ,  "bess@ietf.org" 
Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03
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Yes/s=
upport
 
Cheers,
Jeff 
 
From: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)
Sent:=
 Monday, January 31, 2022 5:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-rec=
overy@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org
<=
b>Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org<=
br>Subject: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-=
bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03
 
Hi WG,
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal> 
This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 [1].
 
This poll runs until Monday 14=
th February 2022.
 
We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that appli=
es to this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance wi=
th IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
If you are liste=
d as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please respond to this em=
ail and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant undisclosed I=
PR. The Document won't progress without answers from all the Authors and Co=
ntributors. 
There is currently no IPR disclosed.
 
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal>If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, th=
en please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not =
yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.<=
/o:p>
 
We are also polling for any existing implemen=
tation as per [2]. Please indicate if you are aware of any implementat=
ions.
 
Thank you,
Matthew & Step=
hane
 
[1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fas=
t-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF Election=

[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/ar=
ch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw
 
 
 
=


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From: Anoop Ghanwani 
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 15:18:57 -0800
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Cc: BESS , draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org
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I support the publication of the draft as an RFC.

Below are some minor editorial comments.

Anoop

==

Multiple sections

Probably better to replace all uses of Ethernet Segment with ES rather than
use them at random.

Section 1

Expand first use of "SID".

will keeo following
->
will keep following

Section 2.2

A value of 01
   indicates the intend to use
->
A value of 01
   indicates the intent to use

A value of 10 indicates the intend to
   use
->
A value of 10 indicates the intent to
   use

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM  wrote:

> Hello Working Group,
>
>
>
> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon [1].
>
>
>
> This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.
>
>
>
> We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to
> this document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with
> IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>
> If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document please
> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any
> relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from
> all the Authors and Contributors.
>
>
>
> There is no IPR currently disclosed.
>
>
>
> If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please
> explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been
> disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>
>
>
> We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2].
>
>
>
>     Thank you,
>
>     Stephane & Matthew
>
>
>
>     [1]
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon/
>
>     [2]
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>

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I support the publication of the draft as an RFC.

Below are some minor editorial comments.
Anoop

=3D=3D

Mult=
iple sections

Probably better to replace all uses of Eth=
ernet Segment with ES rather than use them at random.

<=
div>Section 1

Expand first use of "SID".
=

will keeo following
->
will keep following

=
Section 2.2

A value of 01
=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the inte=
nd to use
->
A value of 01
=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the intent to=
 use

A value of 10 indicates the intend to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0use
-=
>
A value of 10 indicates the intent to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0use

On W=
ed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM <=
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Working Group,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 
This email starts a two weeks Working Grou=
p Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon [1]. 
=C2=A0
This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.
=C2=A0
We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that appli=
es to this document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance wi=
th IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).=

If you are listed as an Auth=
or or a Contributor of this document please respond to this email and indic=
ate whether or not you are aware of any relevant undisclosed IPR. The Docum=
ent won't progress without answers from all the Authors and Contributor=
s.
=C2=A0
There is no IPR currently disclosed.
=C2=A0
If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributo=
r, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has=
 not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
=C2=A0
We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thank y=
ou,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ste=
phane & Matthew
=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
mh-split-horizon/
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/=
arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw
=C2=A0
____________________________=
___________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess




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Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 17:08:45 -0800
From: Benjamin Kaduk 
To: John E Drake 
Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
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Hi John,

My apologies for taking a few weeks to reply; I was sick when this came in
and a bunch of stuff piled up, which has taken some time to get back to.
I can only take a small amount of solace by noting that at least this is
not the last DISCUSS blocking the document from approval.

Inline...

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 03:28:11PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Benjamin Kaduk 
> > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 10:08 PM
> > To: John E Drake 
> > Cc: The IESG ; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> > Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-
> > 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > 
> > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> > 
> > 
> > Hi John,
> > 
> > Thanks for helping clarify.  Also inline.
> > 
> > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 06:35:43PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:
> > > Ben,
> > >
> > > Comments inline.
> > >
> > > Yours Irrespectively,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > Juniper Business Use Only
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 8:49 PM
> > > > To: The IESG 
> > > > Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> > > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-
> > 13:
> > > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > > >
> > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: Discuss
> > > >
> > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to
> > > > all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
> > > > cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please refer to
> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-
> > > > ballot-
> > > > positions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > >
> > gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSRrxQJ1U$
> > > > for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT
> > positions.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-i
> > > > etf-bess-
> > > > evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > >
> > gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSbOB2k3E$
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > (1) Apparently each PE is supposed to store version flags for each
> > > > other PE in the EVI (I guess on a per-route basis?), but this is
> > > > mentioned just once, in passing, in step 2 of the Leave Group procedures in
> > §4.1.2.
> > >
> > > [JD]  The first hop PE keeps track of which IGMP or MLD versions are active on
> > the ESes to which it is attached and announces this via the BGP SMET route.
> > 
> > Yes.  Should this statement (or something like it) be in the document itself?
> > (Where?)
> 
> [JD] Would you please review sections 4 and 5 of the -16 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16#section-4, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16#section-5) and see if they are is clear enough?

You ask if they are "clear enough?"  The changes to clarify which steps are
done by which PEs are quite helpful, and thank you for that.  But they are
not really addressing the issue that was bothering me.  Nevertheless, in
light of this discuss point being raised in order to have a conversation, I
guess they are clear *enough*, but just barely, and there's plenty of room
to make them more clear.

In short, what bothers me here is that we say something like "compare ...
with its per-PE stored version flags", but we never concretely say "store
some per-PE version flags" anywhere.  Now, this is BGP, so of course you're
storing what you got and from whom, but writing it in the way it's
currently stated makes the reader work pretty hard to figure out what's
going on.  If we said something like (with the caveat that I am surely
using the wrong terminology) "compare ... with the version flags from the
corresponding saved EVPN SMET route in the BGP session with this PE", that
would be very clear about what was saved and why.

We could also go further and talk about the information model concretely, a la:

% The goal of IGMP and MLD proxying is to make the EVPN behave seamlessly for
% the tenant systems with respect to multicast operations, while using a more
% efficient delivery system for signaling and delivery across the VPN.
% Accordingly, group state must be tracked synchronously among the PEs
% serving the VPN, with join and leave events propagated to the peer PEs, and
% each PE tracking the state of each of its peer PEs with respect whether
% there are locally attached group members (and in some cases, senders), what
% version(s) of IGMP/MLD are in use for those locally attached group members,
% etc.  In order to perform this translation, each PE acts as an IGMP router
% for the locally attached domain, and maintains the requisite state on
% locally attached nodes, sends periodic membership queries, etc.  The role
% of EVPN SMET route propagation is to ensure that each PE's local state is
% propagated to the other PEs so that they share a consistent view of the
% overall IGMP Membership Request and Leave Group state.  It is important to
% note that the need to keep such local state can be triggered by either
% local IGMP traffic or BGP EVPN signaling.  In most cases a local IGMP event
% will need to be signaled over EVPN, though state initiated by received EVPN
% traffic will not always need to be relayed to the locally attached domain.

> > 
> > > > Similarly, §6.1 defines, somewhat in passing, some "local IGMP
> > > > Membership Request (x,G) state" that must be maintained in some cases.
> > > > Let's discuss whether it's appropriate/useful to have a general
> > > > introductory section that covers what new state PEs are expected to
> > > > retain as part of supporting IGMP/MLD proxying.  Maybe the answer is
> > > > "no", but I would like to have the conversation.
> > >
> > > [JD]  Section 6 generalizes the notion of a first hop PE to be the set of multi-
> > homed PEs attached to a given ES.  Section 6
> > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-
> > bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-
> > gk!WAMtLTp8pHMhjeyfDY13FOVPAqTuQaEqcCu8hQOf-
> > GMscsBgaRFDzERgy6ZEfS8$ ) explains why the multi-homed PEs need to
> > synchronize state and section 6.1 explains what is that state:
> > 
> > Rereading it, it does explain the need for state synchronization; thanks for
> > pointing that out.  However, it does not appear to use or introduce the specific
> > term that the subsequent subsections are using to refer to that state.  It seems
> > like it could be useful to have a defined term for this state, to help readers make
> > the connection between the need to track the state and where that state is
> > referenced in the subsequent procedures.
> > 
> > >  If the PE doesn't already have local IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state for
> > that BD on that ES, it MUST instantiate local IGMP Membership Request (x,G)
> > state and MUST advertise a BGP IGMP Join Synch route for that (ES,BD).  Local
> > IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state refers to IGMP Membership Request (x,G)
> > state that is created as a result of processing an IGMP Membership Report for
> > (x,G).
> > >
> > > i.e., IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state is the union of the local IGMP Join
> > (x,G) state and the installed IGMP Join Synch route.
> > 
> > This would be a great start to a definition for such a defined term that I propose
> > above.
> 
> [JD]  Would you please review section 6 of the -16 version (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16#section-6) and see if it is clear enough? 

Even if you don't want to use the "concrete information model" approach I
outline above, I think this text would be much clearer with the following
change in §6:

OLD:
   Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coordinate IGMP
   Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, where x may be either
   '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES. [...]

NEW:
   Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coordinate IGMP
   Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, where x may be either
   '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES.  Each PE has a
   local copy of that state, and the EVPN signaling serves to synchronize
   state across PEs.

But is it "clear enough" as-is?  Again, just barely, and I will demote this
topic to a COMMENT-level remark.

> > 
> > > >
> > > > (2) I am not sure if the body text is consistent with what is being
> > > > allocated from IANA.  §8 describes PEs that are not using ingress
> > > > replication as being identifiable as """any PE that has advertised
> > > > an Inclusive Multicast Tag route for the BD without the "IGMP Proxy
> > > > Support" flag""", but the IANA considerations allocate flags for
> > > > both IGMP Proxy Support and MLD Proxy Support.  Is a PE that
> > > > advertises MLD Proxy Support but not IGMP Proxy Support to be treated as
> > not using ingress replication, as the literal interpretation of this text would
> > require?
> > > > Similarly, §9.2.1 and §9.3.1 include restrictions on indication of
> > > > support for "IGMP Proxy" with no mention of "MLD Proxy".
> > >
> > > [JD]  It should be either IGMP or MLD Proxy Support
> > 
> > Yes.  Hopefully this is easy to insert into the document itself.
> 
> [JD]  Would you please review sections 8 and 9.4 of the -16 version (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16#section-8, and https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16#section-9.4) and see if they are is clear enough?

I think they are still problematic in this regard.

§8 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, but we actually
have separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support" flags.

The §9.2.1 and 9.3.1 text still has discussion relating to "indicate that
it supports" proxying of one or the other multicast protocols, and §9.4 has
a paragraph that I paraphrase as "if it supports IGMP proxy, it MUST set
the IGMP proxy flag to 1".  But the disclaimer in §3 is specifically worded
to only cover "IGMP Membership Report" as including MLD Membership Report,
and to have version genericity within IGMP and within MLD.  Being specific
to the Membership Report in this way means that it does *not* come into
effect for discussions of "support for IGMP proxy" or "support for MLD
proxy", which is what seems problematic to me, here.

It seems like it ought to be pretty straightforward to craft some text that
expands the disclaimer in §3 to cover things like "Likewise, when there is
text considering whether a PE indicates support for IGMP proxying, the
corresponding behavior has a natural analogue for indication of support for
MLD proxying, and the analogous requirements apply as well".

-Ben

> > 
> > Thanks again,
> > 
> > Ben
> > 
> > > > I do see that there is a generic disclaimer at the end of Section 3
> > > > but the way it is written does not actually seem to cover this usage.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > COMMENT:
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > As one of the directorate reviewers noted (and Éric promoted to a
> > > > DISCUSS), this document does not really give any specific
> > > > description of how an EVPN PE should construct outgoing IGMP/MLD
> > > > messages to send out on its ACs as a result of receiving EVP
> > > > information over BGP.  From a brief examination of the relevant IGMP
> > > > messages, it seems that the EVPN messages might actually contain
> > > > information to populate literally all the IGMP fields, but this is
> > > > probably worth mentioning explicitly.  In particular, guidance might
> > > > be interesting for
> > > > (e.g.) IGMPv3, that lets multiple Group Records be included in a
> > > > single Membership Report.
> > > > (Pedantically, such IGMPv3 multiplexing might also require phrasing
> > > > changes for the reverse process, taking IGMP and constructing EVPN
> > > > routes, since we refer to (e.g) "the Group address of the IGMP
> > > > Membership Report" in places, and that is not a well-defined concept
> > > > in the absence of some text indicating group-by- group processing.)
> > > >
> > > > Abstract
> > > >
> > > >    This document describes how to support efficiently endpoints running
> > > >    IGMP for the above services over an EVPN network by incorporating
> > > >    IGMP proxy procedures on EVPN PEs.
> > > >
> > > > I see Lars already noted the dangling reference to "above services".
> > > > That really needs to be fixed before approval, and even looking at
> > > > the diff from -
> > > > 12 to -13 does not give me a clear picture of what to suggest as a rewrite.
> > > >
> > > > Section 1
> > > >
> > > > I strongly suggest mentioning and referencing some of the core
> > > > technologies that readers are assumed to be familiar with (e.g., RFC
> > > > 7432 for EVPN, RFC 6514 for various tunnel types including Ingress
> > Replication).
> > > > At present the document is quite unfriendly to a reader from an
> > > > outside field, who has little to no indication as to what background
> > > > material is required in order to be able to make sense of this document.
> > > >
> > > >    In DC applications, a point of delivery (POD) can consist of a
> > > >
> > > > Data Center is not marked as "well-known" at
> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-
> > > > editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > >
> > gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSLlJ3XlU$
> > > > and needs to be expanded on first use.
> > > >
> > > >    2.  Distributed anycast multicast proxy: it is desirable for the EVPN
> > > >        network to act as a distributed anycast multicast router with
> > > >
> > > > I honestly don't know what a "distributed anycast multicast router"
> > > > is supposed to be.  Google finds only a handful of instances of that
> > > > (quoted) phrase, most of which can be traced back to this document.
> > > > There is a similar phrase in §4.2 that perhaps clarifies that the
> > > > collection of EVPN PEs is intended to function as a distributed
> > > > multicast router (that is perhaps in some sense transparent to the CEs).
> > > > But how does the "anycast" part come into play?  How is the anycast
> > > > IP address assigned, and which protocol messages is it conveyed in?
> > > >
> > > > Section 3
> > > >
> > > > I suggest adding SMET to the terminology listed here.
> > > >
> > > >    o  Ethernet Segment (ES): When a customer site (device or network) is
> > > >       connected to one or more PEs via a set of Ethernet links.
> > > >
> > > > That looks like an extremely unconventional definition for "Ethernet
> > Segment".
> > > >
> > > >    Membership Report too.  Similarly, text for IGMPv2 applies to MLDv1
> > > >    and text for IGMPv3 applies to MLDv2.  IGMP / MLD version encoding in
> > > >    BGP update is stated in Section 9
> > > >
> > > > I suggest stating explicitly that this equivalence is possible
> > > > because the indicated versions provide analogous functionality for IPv4 and
> > IPv6, respectively.
> > > >
> > > > Section 4.1.1
> > > >
> > > >        is considered as a new BGP route advertisement.  When different
> > > >        version of IGMP join are received, final state MUST be as per
> > > >        section 5.1 of [RFC3376].  At the end of route processing local
> > > >        and remote group record state MUST be as per section 5.1 of
> > > >        [RFC3376].
> > > >
> > > > I interpret "different version of IGMP join" as "join messages from
> > > > different IGMP protocol versions", which makes this reference to RFC
> > > > 3376 make no sense to me -- the referenced section does not talk
> > > > about multiple protocol versions at all.  Please clarify what
> > > > behavior from RFC 3376 is being referenced.
> > > >
> > > >        logged.  If the v3 flag is set (in addition to v2), then the IE
> > > >        flag MUST indicate "exclude".  If not, then an error SHOULD be
> > > >        logged.  [...]
> > > >
> > > > It's great to say that this is an error condition and should be logged.
> > > > What does the recipient actually do while processing the message?
> > > > An RFC 7606 named behavior would be nice.
> > > >
> > > > Section 4.2
> > > >
> > > >    As mentioned in the previous sections, each PE MUST have proxy
> > > >    querier functionality for the following reasons:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not really sure which previous mentions this is supposed to refer to.
> > > >
> > > > Section 6.2.1
> > > >
> > > > Just to confirm: the PE receiving a BGP Leave Synch route does *not*
> > > > produce local IGMP Query messages, on the assumption that the PE
> > > > that did receive the Leave locally has already done so?  (I don't
> > > > think this necessarily needs to be written out in the document
> > > > itself; I just want to confirm my understanding.)
> > > >
> > > > Section 6.3
> > > >
> > > >    A PE which has received an IGMP Membership Request would have synced
> > > >    the IGMP Join by the procedure defined in section 6.1.  If a PE with
> > > >    local join state goes down or the PE to CE link goes down, it would
> > > >    lead to a mass withdraw of multicast routes.  Remote PEs (PEs
> > > > where
> > > >
> > > > Can we have greater clarity on "would lead to"?  Are there actually
> > > > routes that will be withdrawn and we are just ignoring the
> > > > consequences of that for the purposes of local state, using some
> > > > heuristic (as mentioned later) for detecting whether a mass-withdraw
> > > > is due to a failure at a peer?  Or is the mass withdraw a hypothetical scenario
> > that the procedures described here fully avoid?
> > > >
> > > >    these routes were remote IGMP Joins) SHOULD NOT remove the state
> > > >    immediately; instead General Query SHOULD be generated to refresh the
> > > >    states.  There are several ways to detect failure at a peer, e.g.
> > > >    using IGP next hop tracking or ES route withdraw.
> > > >
> > > > Does each PE initiate the General Query, in this scenario?
> > > >
> > > > Section 7
> > > >
> > > >    Note that to facilitate state synchronization after failover, the PEs
> > > >    attached to a multihomed ES operating in Single-Active redundancy
> > > >    mode SHOULD also coordinate IGMP Join (x,G) state.  In this case
> > > > all
> > > >
> > > > What are the drawbacks of not performing such synchronization?
> > > > Alternately, in what cases does it make sense to not perform
> > > > synchronization (so that the guidance is SHOULD rather than MUST)?
> > > >
> > > > Section 9.1
> > > >
> > > > It might be nice to mention that the length fields are measured in
> > > > bits here in this section, where the NLRI format is laid out, in
> > > > addition to
> > > > §9.1.1 where the procedures for constructing it are laid out.
> > > >
> > > >    o  If route is used for IPv6 (MLD) then bit 7 indicates support for
> > > >       MLD version 1.  The second least significant bit, bit 6
> > > > indicates
> > > >
> > > > How does the receiver know if the route is being used for IPv6?
> > > > (Also applies in §9.2, 9.3)
> > > >
> > > > Section 9.1.1
> > > >
> > > > Is there any requirement for consistency about using IPv4 vs IPv6
> > > > addresses in all three address fields?  The description given here
> > > > would seem to allow mixing address families, but I don't really expect that to
> > work in practice.
> > > >
> > > >    version and any source filtering for a given group membership.  All
> > > >    EVPN SMET routes are announced with per- EVI Route Target extended
> > > >    communities.
> > > >
> > > > Is there a good reference for discussion of these associated ECs?
> > > >
> > > > Section 9.1.2
> > > >
> > > >    PE2 to receive multicast traffic.  In this case PE2 MUST originate a
> > > >    (*,*) SMET route to receive all of the multicast traffic in the EVPN
> > > >    domain.  To generate Wildcards (*,*) routes, the procedure from
> > > >    [RFC6625] SHOULD be used.
> > > >
> > > > Is the PE expected to identify this case based on protocol messages
> > > > received at runtime (e.g., any PIM at all), or is this external configuration?
> > > >
> > > > Section 9.3.1
> > > >
> > > >    Maximum Response Time is value to be used while sending query as
> > > >    defined in [RFC2236]
> > > >
> > > > Is it actually right to describe this as "while sending query
> > > > [messages]"?  My understanding is that a PE receiving this route
> > > > over BGP would in fact *not* actually send IGMP Query messages, but
> > > > simply use the time to set a timer and potentially clear up state if
> > > > certain conditions are met at the end of the period in question.
> > > >
> > > > Section 10
> > > >
> > > > Just to confirm my understanding here: in the immediate leave case,
> > > > the Leave Synch route will be advertised just for the "delta" period
> > > > of time described in
> > > > §6.2 and then withdrawn?
> > > >
> > > >    IGMP MAY be configured with immediate leave option.  This allows
> > > > the
> > > >
> > > > Is there a suitable reference for "immediate leave"?  I did not see
> > > > much relevant in RFCs 2236 and 3376.
> > > >
> > > > Section 12
> > > >
> > > > I support Roman's point about detailing which aspects are covered in
> > > > which referenced RFCs.
> > > >
> > > > I also noted that the "delta" value used in the Last Member Query
> > > > process must be configured on each node, and to the same value.
> > > > Such requirement for identical configuration opens up the chance for
> > > > skew, and sometimes any such skew is security-relevant and must be
> > > > documented in the security considerations.  However, I'm not sure
> > > > that that's the case, here, as it seems that skew would mostly only
> > > > serve to cause a brief "blip" where a PE drops its group state only
> > > > to recreate it when a report shows up later.  Is there a scenario
> > > > where the skew goes the other way, and a PE leaves group state in place
> > indefinitely that should have been dropped?
> > > >
> > > > Section 16.1
> > > >
> > > > Since we only reference RFC 4684 to say that its procedures are not
> > > > applicable to what we describe, it seems like it could be classified
> > > > as only an informative reference.
> > > >
> > > > NITS
> > > >
> > > > We seem quite inconsistent about whether we write "BCP Leave Synch
> > > > route" or "IGMP Leave Synch route" (but I believe these are both
> > > > supposed to be the same thing).
> > > >
> > > > Section 1
> > > >
> > > >    communication and orchestration.  However, EVPN is used as standard
> > > >    way of inter-POD communication for both intra-DC and inter-DC.  A
> > > >
> > > > intra-DC and inter-DC are both adjectives that need to modify some noun.
> > > > Please supply such a noun (e.g., "traffic").
> > > >
> > > >    These hosts express their interests in multicast groups on a given
> > > >    subnet/VLAN by sending IGMP Membership Reports (Joins) for their
> > > >    interested multicast group(s).  [...]
> > > >
> > > > I think that this phrase "IGMP Membership Reports (Joins)" is
> > > > intended to serve some cross-protocol clarification role (e.g.,
> > > > "Join" is used by
> > > > IGMPv3 and MLD but not IGMPv2).  Since this is the first place where
> > > > we use that formulation, some additional text to clarify the shorthand seems
> > in order.
> > > >
> > > > Section 3
> > > >
> > > >    o  BD: Broadcast Domain.  As per [RFC7432], an EVI consists of a
> > > >       single or multiple BDs.  In case of VLAN-bundle and VLAN-aware
> > > >
> > > > RFC 7432 spells "VLAN Bundle" with no hyphen.
> > > >
> > > >    o  Single-Active Redundancy Mode: When only a single PE, among all
> > > >       the PEs attached to an Ethernet segment, is allowed to forward
> > > >       traffic to/from that Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, then the
> > > >       Ethernet segment is defined to be operating in Single-Active
> > > >       redundancy mode.
> > > >
> > > >    o  All-Active Redundancy Mode: When all PEs attached to an Ethernet
> > > >       segment are allowed to forward known unicast traffic to/from that
> > > >       Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, then the Ethernet segment is
> > > >       defined to be operating in All-Active redundancy mode.
> > > >
> > > > Is it important that the second definition only covers "unicast traffic"
> > > > but the former uses the unqualified term "traffic"?
> > > >
> > > >    o  OIF: Outgoing Interface for multicast.  It can be physical
> > > >       interface, virtual interface or tunnel.
> > > >
> > > > s/physical/a physical/
> > > >
> > > > Section 4
> > > >
> > > >    The IGMP Proxy mechanism is used to reduce the flooding of IGMP
> > > >    messages over an EVPN network similar to ARP proxy used in
> > > > reducing
> > > >
> > > > "similarly to how ARP proxy is used"
> > > >
> > > >    speakers.  The information is again translated back to IGMP message
> > > >    at the recipient EVPN speaker.  Thus it helps create an IGMP
> > > > overlay
> > > >
> > > > "IGMP messages" plural, to match the previous sentence.
> > > >
> > > > Section 4.1.1
> > > >
> > > >    1.  When the first hop PE receives several IGMP Membership Reports
> > > >        (Joins), belonging to the same IGMP version, from different
> > > >        attached hosts for the same (*,G) or (S,G), it SHOULD send a
> > > >        single BGP message corresponding to the very first IGMP
> > > >        Membership Request (BGP update as soon as possible) for that
> > > >        (*,G) or (S,G).  [...]
> > > >
> > > > What is an "IGMP Membership Request"?  Is this just a typo for Report?
> > > >
> > > >                         This is because BGP is a stateful protocol and
> > > >        no further transmission of the same report is needed.  If the
> > > >        IGMP Membership Request is for (*,G), then multicast group
> > > >        address MUST be sent along with the corresponding version flag
> > > >        (v2 or v3) set.  [...]
> > > >
> > > > (ditto)
> > > >
> > > >                                    If the IGMP Join is for (S,G), then
> > > >        besides setting multicast group address along with the version
> > > >        flag v3, the source IP address and the IE flag MUST be set.
> > > > It
> > > >
> > > > "setting the multicast group address" (add "the").
> > > >
> > > >    2.  When the first hop PE receives an IGMPv3 Join for (S,G) on a
> > > >        given BD, it SHOULD advertise the corresponding EVPN Selective
> > > >        Multicast Ethernet Tag (SMET) route regardless of whether the
> > > >
> > > > Forward reference Section 9.1, please?
> > > >
> > > >    4.  When the first hop PE receives an IGMP version-X Join first for
> > > >        (*,G) and then later it receives an IGMPv3 Join for the same
> > > >        multicast group address but for a specific source address S, then
> > > >        the PE MUST advertise a new EVPN SMET route with v3 flag set (and
> > > >        v2 reset).  The IE flag also need to be set accordingly.
> > > > Since
> > > >
> > > > What does "v2 reset" mean?  "The v2 flag is not set" or "the v2 flag is
> > cleared"?
> > > > I recommend not using the word "reset" in this context as it's ambiguous.
> > > >
> > > >    7.  Upon receiving EVPN SMET route(s) and before generating the
> > > >        corresponding IGMP Membership Request(s), the PE checks to
> > > > see
> > > >
> > > > "Membership Request" again.
> > > >
> > > >        whether it has any CE multicast router for that BD on any of its
> > > >        ES's . The PE provides such a check by listening for PIM Hello
> > > >        messages on that AC (i.e, ES,BD).  If the PE does have the
> > > >        router's ACs, then the generated IGMP Membership Request(s) are
> > > >        sent to those ACs.  If it doesn't have any of the router's AC,
> > > >        then no IGMP Membership Request(s) needs to be generated.
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > The writing here seems rather jumbled, though perhaps I just
> > > > misunderstand the terminology in question.  Assuming that a PE
> > > > router has one or more ACs connecting it to one or more CE routers
> > > > (possibly in a many-to-many fashion), then I don't see how we can
> > > > write about the PE "have[ing] [any of] the router's ACs" -- wouldn't
> > > > the relevant criterion be that the AC has CE routers participating in
> > multicast?
> > > >
> > > > Section 4.1.2
> > > >
> > > >    2.  When a PE receives an EVPN SMET route for a given (*,G), it
> > > >        compares the received version flags from the route with its per-
> > > >        PE stored version flags.  If the PE finds that a version flag
> > > >        associated with the (*,G) for the remote PE is reset, then
> > > > the PE
> > > >
> > > > [same comment about the word "reset" as above]
> > > >
> > > >        MUST generate IGMP Leave for that (*,G) toward its local
> > > >        interface (if any) attached to the multicast router for that
> > > >
> > > > Probably "router(s)" since there could be more than one.
> > > > And "interface(s)" as well?
> > > >
> > > >        multicast group.  It should be noted that the received EVPN route
> > > >        MUST at least have one version flag set.  If all version flags
> > > >        are reset, it is an error because the PE should have received
> > > > an
> > > >
> > > > ["reset" again]
> > > >
> > > > Section 5
> > > >
> > > >    Consider the EVPN network of Figure-1, where there is an EVPN
> > > >    instance configured across the PEs shown in this figure (namely PE1,
> > > >    PE2, and PE3).  Let's consider that this EVPN instance consists of a
> > > >    single bridge domain (single subnet) with all the hosts, sources,
> > > > and
> > > >
> > > > This is the only instance of the word "bridge" in this document (but
> > > > "broadcast domain" appears as a defined term).  Is "BD" intended?
> > > >
> > > > Section 5.1
> > > >
> > > >    all these local ports are associated with the hosts.  PE1 sends an
> > > >    EVPN Multicast Group route corresponding to this join for (*,G1) and
> > > >    setting v2 flag.  This EVPN route is received by PE2 and PE3 that
> > > > are
> > > >
> > > > s/setting/sets the/
> > > >
> > > >    information.  However, when it receives the IGMPv3 Join from H3 for
> > > >    the same (*,G1).  Besides adding the corresponding port to its
> > > > OIF
> > > >
> > > > incomplete sentence; could add ", EVPN messaging is required" to
> > > > connect to the next sentence.
> > > >
> > > > Section 6
> > > >
> > > >    either DF or non-DF; i.e., different IGMP Membership Request
> > > > messages
> > > >
> > > > "Membership Request" again.
> > > >
> > > >    needed.  All-Active multihoming PEs for a given ES MUST support IGMP
> > > >    synchronization procedures described in this section if they need to
> > > >    perform IGMP proxy for hosts connected to that ES.
> > > >
> > > > Can we unpack the actual requirement here?  Is it: "if a given ES
> > > > uses all-active multihoming, in order for IGMP proxying to be used
> > > > on that ES, all the PEs on that segment must support the
> > > > synchronization procedures described in the following subsections"?
> > > > The analogous text in §6.2 seems more clear to me on what the
> > > > preconditions are.
> > > >
> > > > Also, s/MUST support/MUST support the/ and s/IGMP proxy/IGMP
> > > > proxying/
> > > >
> > > > Section 6.1
> > > >
> > > >    belongs.  If the PE doesn't already have local IGMP Membership
> > > >    Request (x,G) state for that BD on that ES, it MUST instantiate local
> > > >    IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state and MUST advertise a BGP IGMP
> > > >
> > > > "Membership Request", albeit perhaps defensible since it is "state"
> > > > and not a message being sent.
> > > >
> > > >    Join Synch route for that (ES,BD).  Local IGMP Membership Request
> > > >    (x,G) state refers to IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state that is
> > > >    created as a result of processing an IGMP Membership Report for
> > > >    (x,G).
> > > >
> > > > It's typically easier for the reader when the new term is defined
> > > > before it is used, rather than after.  Especially so when the
> > > > defined term is similar to an existing, well-established, term that means
> > something else.
> > > >
> > > > Section 9.1
> > > >
> > > >    o  This EVPN route type is used to carry tenant IGMP multicast group
> > > >       information.  The flag field assists in distributing IGMP
> > > >       Membership Report of a given host for a given multicast route.
> > > >       The version bits help associate IGMP version of receivers
> > > >       participating within the EVPN domain.
> > > >
> > > >    o  The include/exclude bit helps in creating filters for a given
> > > >       multicast route.
> > > >
> > > > Is "assists" and "helps" really the terminology we want to use when
> > > > this information is literally required in order to construct the
> > > > relevant IGMP messages?  (Similarly for the subsequent subsections.)
> > > >
> > > > Section 9.1.1
> > > >
> > > >    The Originator Router Address is the IP address of router originating
> > > >    this route.  The SMET Originator Router IP address MUST match that of
> > > >    the IMET (or S-PMSI AD) route originated for the same EVI by the same
> > > >    downstream PE.
> > > >
> > > > References for IMET and S-PMSI AD might be nice.
> > > >
> > > >    The Flags field indicates the version of IGMP protocol from which the
> > > >    Membership Report was received.  It also indicates whether the
> > > >
> > > > Probably "version(s)" and "Report(s)" since we encourage coalescing.
> > > >
> > > > Section 9.3.1
> > > >
> > > >    Maximum Response Time is value to be used while sending query as
> > > >    defined in [RFC2236]
> > > >
> > > > "the value to be used while sending queries" (though see the non-nit
> > comment).
> > > >
> > > >


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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)" 
To: Anoop Ghanwani , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
CC: BESS , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
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Thank you Anoop. We will fix those in the next version.
Jorge

From: Anoop Ghanwani 
Date: Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:19 AM
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
Cc: BESS , draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org , bess-chairs@ietf.org 
Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-e=
vpn-mh-split-horizon
I support the publication of the draft as an RFC.

Below are some minor editorial comments.

Anoop

=3D=3D

Multiple sections

Probably better to replace all uses of Ethernet Segment with ES rather than=
 use them at random.

Section 1

Expand first use of "SID".

will keeo following
->
will keep following

Section 2.2

A value of 01
   indicates the intend to use
->
A value of 01
   indicates the intent to use

A value of 10 indicates the intend to
   use
->
A value of 10 indicates the intent to
   use

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM > wrote:

Hello Working Group,



This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-ev=
pn-mh-split-horizon [1].



This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.



We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th=
is document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF =
IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document please res=
pond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevan=
t undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all the=
 Authors and Contributors.



There is no IPR currently disclosed.



If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly=
 respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i=
n conformance with IETF rules.



We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2].



    Thank you,

    Stephane & Matthew


    [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-hori=
zon/

    [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjq=
Dpw

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Thank you Anoop. We will fix those in the next version.=



Jorge


 





From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu=
>

Date: Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:19 AM

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Cc: BESS <bess@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizo=
n@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org>, bess-cha=
irs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf=
-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon








I support the publication of the draft as an RFC.






 






Below are some minor editorial comments.






 






Anoop






 






=3D=3D






 




Multiple sections




 






Probably better to replace all uses of Ethernet Segment with ES r=
ather than use them at random.






 






Section 1




 






Expand first use of "SID".






will keeo following

->

will keep following




 






Section 2.2








A value of 01

   indicates the intend to use

->

A value of 01

   indicates the intent to use






A value of 10 indicates the intend to

   use

->

A value of 10 indicates the intent to

   use






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:











Hello Working Group,



    



This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-ev=
pn-mh-split-horizon [1].




 



This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.



 



We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th=
is document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF =
IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).=




If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document please res=
pond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevan=
t undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all the=
 Authors and Contributors.



 



There is no IPR currently disclosed.



 



If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly=
 respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i=
n conformance with IETF rules.



 



We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. =




    



    Thank you,



    Stephane & Matthew



 



    [1] 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon/=




    [2] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw<=
o:p>



 






_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess










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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Multicast Source Redundancy in EVPN Networks
        Authors         : Jorge Rabadan
                          Jayant Kotalwar
                          Senthil Sathappan
                          Zhaohui Zhang
                          Wen Lin
                          Eric C. Rosen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-redundant-mcast-source-03.txt
	Pages           : 32
	Date            : 2022-02-06

Abstract:
   EVPN supports intra and inter-subnet IP multicast forwarding.
   However, EVPN (or conventional IP multicast techniques for that
   matter) do not have a solution for the case where: a) a given
   multicast group carries more than one flow (i.e., more than one
   source), and b) it is desired that each receiver gets only one of the
   several flows.  Existing multicast techniques assume there are no
   redundant sources sending the same flow to the same IP multicast
   group, and, in case there were redundant sources, the receiver's
   application would deal with the received duplicated packets.  This
   document extends the existing EVPN specifications and assumes that IP
   Multicast source redundancy may exist.  It also assumes that, in case
   two or more sources send the same IP Multicast flows into the tenant
   domain, the EVPN PEs need to avoid that the receivers get packet
   duplication by following the described procedures.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-redundant-mcast-source/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-redundant-mcast-source-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-redundant-mcast-source-03


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)" 
To: Alexander Vainshtein , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df.all@ietf.org" 
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Hi Sasha,

Sorry for the delay, this email fell through the cracks..

Please see in-line.

Thanks for the feedback.
Jorge

From: Alexander Vainshtein 
Date: Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:12 PM
To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df.all@ietf.org 
Cc: bess@ietf.org 
Subject: Queries on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df
Hi,
I have a few questions with regard to draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df:

1.       The first statement in Section 4.4 of the draft says that  =93a ca=
pability to NOT preempt the existing DF for a given Ethernet Tag is require=
d and therefore added to the DF Election extended community=94. This statem=
ent looks problematic to me because:

a.       Section 2.2 of RFC 8584 says that =93A PE SHOULD attach the DF Election Extended C=
ommunity to any advertised ES route=94

b.       To the best of my understanding, the ES route in the quoted statem=
ent means an EVPN Ethernet Segment (Type 4) route defined in Section-7.4 of=
 RFC 7432

c.       The NLRI of this route does not contain information about any Ethe=
rnet Tag and, to the best of my understanding, just  a single copy of this =
route per MH ES to which a given PE is attached is advertised by the PE

d.       My conclusion is that non-preemption of the existing DF can be onl=
y advertised per ES/virtual ES and can only be applied to all EVI and all E=
thernet tags that are attached to this MH ES.  Is this understanding correc=
t?

                                                                           =
            i.      If not, can you please clarify what I am missing

                                                                           =
          ii.      If yes, may I suggest that you update the draft accordin=
gly?
[jorge] yes, that=92s a fair point. We changed the text to:
=93a capability to NOT preempt the existing DF (for all the Ethernet Tags i=
n the ES) is required and therefore added to the DF Election extended commu=
nity.=94



2.       The description of the non-preemptive DF Election procedure in ite=
m#5 of Section 4.4. of the draft says that, upon recovery of a previously f=
ailed multi-homed ES, the supporting PE shall start a bott timer (or a hold=
 timer) that is =93applied between the INIT and the DF_WAIT states in the D=
F Election Finite State Machine described in [RFC8584]=94. From my POV:

a.       This description is equivalent to introduction of a  new state in =
the DF Election Finite State Machine defined in Section 2.2 of RFC 8584
[jorge] I think the use of a boot timer is a normal practice in any multiho=
ming scenario (not only EVPN based), so that the PE starts the multi-homing=
 procedures only when the infrastructure protocols are up and running. As a=
n example, this boot timer would prevent a PE from running DF Election and =
take over too soon, if the underlay IGP has not converged yet or BGP is sti=
ll converging. As such, IMO it is applicable to any DF Election and not onl=
y this document. Maybe a topic for rfc-7432bis?


b.       As a consequence, a formal definition of the modified DF Election =
Finite State Machine should be added to the draft, preferably preserving th=
e style of RFC 8584. The following points require explicit clarification IM=
HO:

                                                                           =
            i.      In which cases the new DF Election FSM should be used (=
e.g., I assume that it should not be used if non-preemptive DF election mod=
e is not configured). One scenario that deserves special attention is the s=
cenario in which Non-Preemptive DF Election mode has been advertised by som=
e, but not all PEs attached to the specific MH ES

                                                                           =
          ii.      Whether the ES route for the recovered ES representative=
 eventually should be re-advertised with the configured preference and conf=
igured DF mode, and, if yes, when should this happen.
[jorge] as discussed above, if the boot timer is applicable to all DF Algs =
(I think it is), that modification may belong to rfc-7432bis instead. This =
document should focus on the DF Election Algorithm details only. Also, abou=
t the mix of non-revertive and revertive PEs in the same ES, the text stron=
gly recommends not to do that.


Your timely feedback will be highly appreciated.

Regards, and lots of thanks in advance,
Sasha

Office: +972-39266302
Cell:      +972-549266302
Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com


Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information o=
f Ribbon Communications Inc. and its Affiliates that is confidential and/or=
 proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, disclo=
sure, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express perm=
ission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, pleas=
e notify the sender immediately and then delete all copies, including any a=
ttachments.

--_000_BY3PR08MB7060C180512D22B88615EE8DF72B9BY3PR08MB7060namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Sasha,


 


Sorry for the delay, this email fell through the cracks..


 


Please see in-line.


 


Thanks for the feedback.


Jorge


 





From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vains=
htein@rbbn.com>

Date: Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:12 PM

To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df.all@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-ev=
pn-pref-df.all@ietf.org>

Cc: bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Queries on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df



Hi,


I have a few questions with regard
to draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df:



1. &=
nbsp;    
The first s=
tatement in Section 4.4 of the draft says that  =93a capability to NOT=
 preempt the existing DF for a given Ethernet Tag is required and therefore=
 added to the DF Election extended community=94.
 This statement looks problematic to me because:



a. &=
nbsp;    
Section 2.2 of R=
FC 8584 says that =93A PE SHOULD attach the DF Election Extended Commun=
ity to any advertised ES route=94



b. &=
nbsp;    
To the best=
 of my understanding, the ES route in the quoted statement means an EVPN Et=
hernet Segment (Type 4) route defined in
Secti=
on-7.4 of RFC 7432



c. &=
nbsp;    
The NLRI of=
 this route does not contain information about any Ethernet Tag and, to the=
 best of my understanding, just  a single copy of this route per MH ES=
 to which a given PE is attached is advertised
 by the PE



d. &=
nbsp;    
My conclusi=
on is that non-preemption of the existing DF can be only advertised per ES/=
virtual ES and can only be applied to all EVI and all Ethernet tags that ar=
e attached to this MH ES.  Is this
 understanding correct? 



 &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;         
i.  =
;    If not, can you please clarify what I am missing=




 &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;       
ii. &nbs=
p;    If yes, may I suggest that you update the draft accordingly?=



[jorge] yes, that=92s a fair point. We changed the text to:


=93a capability to NOT preempt the existing DF (for all the Ethernet Tags=
 in the ES) is required and therefore added to the DF Election extended com=
munity.=94


 


 



2. &=
nbsp;    
The descrip=
tion of the non-preemptive DF Election procedure in item#5 of Section 4.4. =
of the draft says that, upon recovery of a previously failed multi-homed ES=
, the supporting PE shall start a
 bott timer (or a hold timer) that is =93applied between the INIT and the D=
F_WAIT states in the DF Election Finite State Machine described in [RFC8584=
]=94. From my POV:



a. &=
nbsp;    
This descri=
ption is equivalent to introduction of a  new state in the DF Election=
 Finite State Machine defined in Section 2.2 of RFC 8584<=
/p>

[jorge] I think the use of a boot timer is a normal practice in any multi=
homing scenario (not only EVPN based), so that the PE starts the multi-homi=
ng procedures only when the infrastructure
 protocols are up and running. As an example, this boot timer would prevent=
 a PE from running DF Election and take over too soon, if the underlay IGP =
has not converged yet or BGP is still converging. As such, IMO it is applic=
able to any DF Election and not
 only this document. Maybe a topic for rfc-7432bis?


 



b. &=
nbsp;    
As a conseq=
uence, a formal definition of the modified DF Election Finite State Machine=
 should be added to the draft, preferably preserving the style of RFC 8584.=
 The following points require explicit
 clarification IMHO:



 &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;         
i.  =
;    In which cases the new DF Election FSM should be used (e.g., I ass=
ume that it should not be used if non-preemptive DF election mode is not
 configured). One scenario that deserves special attention is the scenario =
in which Non-Preemptive DF Election mode has been advertised by some, but n=
ot all PEs attached to the specific MH ES



 &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;       
ii. &nbs=
p;    Whether the ES route for the recovered ES representative eventual=
ly should be re-advertised with the configured preference and configured
 DF mode, and, if yes, when should this happen.


[jorge] as discussed above, if the boot timer is applicable to all DF Alg=
s (I think it is), that modification may belong to rfc-7432bis instead. Thi=
s document should focus on the DF Election
 Algorithm details only. Also, about the mix of non-revertive and revertive=
 PEs in the same ES, the text strongly recommends not to do that.


 


 


Your timely feedback will be highly appreciated.


 


Regards, and lots of thanks in advance,


Sasha


 


Office: +972-39266302


Cell:      +972-549266302


Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com


 




Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information o=
f Ribbon Communications Inc. and its Affiliates that is confidential and/or=
 proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, disclo=
sure, reliance or distribution by
 others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If=
 you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately a=
nd then delete all copies, including any attachments.






--_000_BY3PR08MB7060C180512D22B88615EE8DF72B9BY3PR08MB7060namp_--


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To: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" , The IESG 
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
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From: John E Drake 
To: Benjamin Kaduk 
CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
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Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 15:17:21 +0000
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References: <163477731824.13216.11701195886404718166@ietfa.amsl.com>  <20211022020803.GT88762@kduck.mit.edu>  <20220205010845.GZ11486@mit.edu>
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Ben,

Comments inline below.

Yours Irrespectively,

John


Juniper Business Use Only

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Kaduk 
> Sent: Friday, February 4, 2022 8:09 PM
> To: John E Drake 
> Cc: The IESG ; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.or=
g;
> bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pr=
oxy-
> 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>=20
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
>=20
>=20
> Hi John,
>=20
> My apologies for taking a few weeks to reply; I was sick when this came i=
n and a
> bunch of stuff piled up, which has taken some time to get back to.
> I can only take a small amount of solace by noting that at least this is =
not the
> last DISCUSS blocking the document from approval.
>=20
> Inline...
>=20
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 03:28:11PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Benjamin Kaduk 
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 10:08 PM
> > > To: John E Drake 
> > > Cc: The IESG ;
> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> > > Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on
> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-
> > > 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > >
> > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > Thanks for helping clarify.  Also inline.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 06:35:43PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:
> > > > Ben,
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline.
> > > >
> > > > Yours Irrespectively,
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Juniper Business Use Only
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker 
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 8:49 PM
> > > > > To: The IESG 
> > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> > > > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> > > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on
> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-
> > > 13:
> > > > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > > > >
> > > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: Discuss
> > > > >
> > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
> > > > > to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel
> > > > > free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please refer to
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-i
> > > > > esg-
> > > > > ballot-
> > > > > positions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSRrxQJ1U$
> > > > > for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT
> > > positions.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found her=
e:
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra
> > > > > ft-i
> > > > > etf-bess-
> > > > > evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSbOB2k3E$
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > (1) Apparently each PE is supposed to store version flags for
> > > > > each other PE in the EVI (I guess on a per-route basis?), but
> > > > > this is mentioned just once, in passing, in step 2 of the Leave
> > > > > Group procedures in
> > > =A74.1.2.
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  The first hop PE keeps track of which IGMP or MLD versions
> > > > are active on
> > > the ESes to which it is attached and announces this via the BGP SMET =
route.
> > >
> > > Yes.  Should this statement (or something like it) be in the document=
 itself?
> > > (Where?)
> >
> > [JD] Would you please review sections 4 and 5 of the -16
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_GYAo7RM$ ,
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i=
etf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-5__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_8b_wkkE$ ) and see if they are is
> clear enough?
>=20
> You ask if they are "clear enough?"  The changes to clarify which steps a=
re done
> by which PEs are quite helpful, and thank you for that.  But they are not=
 really
> addressing the issue that was bothering me.  Nevertheless, in light of th=
is discuss
> point being raised in order to have a conversation, I guess they are clea=
r
> *enough*, but just barely, and there's plenty of room to make them more c=
lear.
>=20
> In short, what bothers me here is that we say something like "compare ...
> with its per-PE stored version flags", but we never concretely say "store=
 some
> per-PE version flags" anywhere.  Now, this is BGP, so of course you're st=
oring
> what you got and from whom, but writing it in the way it's currently stat=
ed
> makes the reader work pretty hard to figure out what's going on.  If we s=
aid
> something like (with the caveat that I am surely using the wrong terminol=
ogy)
> "compare ... with the version flags from the corresponding saved EVPN SME=
T
> route in the BGP session with this PE", that would be very clear about wh=
at was
> saved and why.
>=20
> We could also go further and talk about the information model concretely,=
 a la:
>=20
> % The goal of IGMP and MLD proxying is to make the EVPN behave seamlessly
> for % the tenant systems with respect to multicast operations, while usin=
g a
> more % efficient delivery system for signaling and delivery across the VP=
N.
> % Accordingly, group state must be tracked synchronously among the PEs %
> serving the VPN, with join and leave events propagated to the peer PEs, a=
nd %
> each PE tracking the state of each of its peer PEs with respect whether %=
 there
> are locally attached group members (and in some cases, senders), what %
> version(s) of IGMP/MLD are in use for those locally attached group member=
s, %
> etc.  In order to perform this translation, each PE acts as an IGMP route=
r % for
> the locally attached domain, and maintains the requisite state on % local=
ly
> attached nodes, sends periodic membership queries, etc.  The role % of EV=
PN
> SMET route propagation is to ensure that each PE's local state is % propa=
gated
> to the other PEs so that they share a consistent view of the % overall IG=
MP
> Membership Request and Leave Group state.  It is important to % note that=
 the
> need to keep such local state can be triggered by either % local IGMP tra=
ffic or
> BGP EVPN signaling.  In most cases a local IGMP event % will need to be s=
ignaled
> over EVPN, though state initiated by received EVPN % traffic will not alw=
ays
> need to be relayed to the locally attached domain.

[JD]  We can add this text to section 4.=20
>=20
> > >
> > > > > Similarly, =A76.1 defines, somewhat in passing, some "local IGMP
> > > > > Membership Request (x,G) state" that must be maintained in some c=
ases.
> > > > > Let's discuss whether it's appropriate/useful to have a general
> > > > > introductory section that covers what new state PEs are expected
> > > > > to retain as part of supporting IGMP/MLD proxying.  Maybe the
> > > > > answer is "no", but I would like to have the conversation.
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  Section 6 generalizes the notion of a first hop PE to be the
> > > > set of multi-
> > > homed PEs attached to a given ES.  Section 6
> > > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d
> > > raft-ietf-
> > > bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > gk!WAMtLTp8pHMhjeyfDY13FOVPAqTuQaEqcCu8hQOf-
> > > GMscsBgaRFDzERgy6ZEfS8$ ) explains why the multi-homed PEs need to
> > > synchronize state and section 6.1 explains what is that state:
> > >
> > > Rereading it, it does explain the need for state synchronization;
> > > thanks for pointing that out.  However, it does not appear to use or
> > > introduce the specific term that the subsequent subsections are
> > > using to refer to that state.  It seems like it could be useful to
> > > have a defined term for this state, to help readers make the
> > > connection between the need to track the state and where that state i=
s
> referenced in the subsequent procedures.
> > >
> > > >  If the PE doesn't already have local IGMP Membership Request
> > > > (x,G) state for
> > > that BD on that ES, it MUST instantiate local IGMP Membership
> > > Request (x,G) state and MUST advertise a BGP IGMP Join Synch route
> > > for that (ES,BD).  Local IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state refers
> > > to IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state that is created as a result
> > > of processing an IGMP Membership Report for (x,G).
> > > >
> > > > i.e., IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state is the union of the
> > > > local IGMP Join
> > > (x,G) state and the installed IGMP Join Synch route.
> > >
> > > This would be a great start to a definition for such a defined term
> > > that I propose above.
> >
> > [JD]  Would you please review section 6 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_dTYpjPA$ ) and see if it is clear
> enough?
>=20
> Even if you don't want to use the "concrete information model" approach I
> outline above, I think this text would be much clearer with the following=
 change
> in =A76:
>=20
> OLD:
>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coordinate IGMP
>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, where x may be either
>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES. [...]
>=20
> NEW:
>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coordinate IGMP
>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, where x may be either
>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES.  Each PE has a
>    local copy of that state, and the EVPN signaling serves to synchronize
>    state across PEs.

[JD]  This is fine.=20

>=20
> But is it "clear enough" as-is?  Again, just barely, and I will demote th=
is topic to a
> COMMENT-level remark.
>=20
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > (2) I am not sure if the body text is consistent with what is
> > > > > being allocated from IANA.  =A78 describes PEs that are not using
> > > > > ingress replication as being identifiable as """any PE that has
> > > > > advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag route for the BD without
> > > > > the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag""", but the IANA considerations
> > > > > allocate flags for both IGMP Proxy Support and MLD Proxy
> > > > > Support.  Is a PE that advertises MLD Proxy Support but not IGMP
> > > > > Proxy Support to be treated as
> > > not using ingress replication, as the literal interpretation of this
> > > text would require?
> > > > > Similarly, =A79.2.1 and =A79.3.1 include restrictions on indicati=
on
> > > > > of support for "IGMP Proxy" with no mention of "MLD Proxy".
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  It should be either IGMP or MLD Proxy Support
> > >
> > > Yes.  Hopefully this is easy to insert into the document itself.
> >
> > [JD]  Would you please review sections 8 and 9.4 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-8__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_U63FOVo$ , and
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i=
etf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-9.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-
> gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_QXUa-Og$ )
> and see if they are is clear enough?
>=20
> I think they are still problematic in this regard.
>=20
> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, but we actually=
 have
> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support" flags.
[
JD]  We will fix this.=20

>=20
> The =A79.2.1 and 9.3.1 text still has discussion relating to "indicate th=
at it
> supports" proxying of one or the other multicast protocols, and =A79.4 ha=
s a
> paragraph that I paraphrase as "if it supports IGMP proxy, it MUST set th=
e IGMP
> proxy flag to 1".  But the disclaimer in =A73 is specifically worded to o=
nly cover
> "IGMP Membership Report" as including MLD Membership Report, and to have
> version genericity within IGMP and within MLD.  Being specific to the
> Membership Report in this way means that it does *not* come into effect f=
or
> discussions of "support for IGMP proxy" or "support for MLD proxy", which=
 is
> what seems problematic to me, here.
>=20
> It seems like it ought to be pretty straightforward to craft some text th=
at
> expands the disclaimer in =A73 to cover things like "Likewise, when there=
 is text
> considering whether a PE indicates support for IGMP proxying, the
> corresponding behavior has a natural analogue for indication of support f=
or
> MLD proxying, and the analogous requirements apply as well".

[JD]  We will add this.=20

>=20
> -Ben
>=20
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > >
> > > Ben
> > >
> > > > > I do see that there is a generic disclaimer at the end of
> > > > > Section 3 but the way it is written does not actually seem to cov=
er this
> usage.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > COMMENT:
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > As one of the directorate reviewers noted (and =C9ric promoted to
> > > > > a DISCUSS), this document does not really give any specific
> > > > > description of how an EVPN PE should construct outgoing IGMP/MLD
> > > > > messages to send out on its ACs as a result of receiving EVP
> > > > > information over BGP.  From a brief examination of the relevant
> > > > > IGMP messages, it seems that the EVPN messages might actually
> > > > > contain information to populate literally all the IGMP fields,
> > > > > but this is probably worth mentioning explicitly.  In
> > > > > particular, guidance might be interesting for
> > > > > (e.g.) IGMPv3, that lets multiple Group Records be included in a
> > > > > single Membership Report.
> > > > > (Pedantically, such IGMPv3 multiplexing might also require
> > > > > phrasing changes for the reverse process, taking IGMP and
> > > > > constructing EVPN routes, since we refer to (e.g) "the Group
> > > > > address of the IGMP Membership Report" in places, and that is
> > > > > not a well-defined concept in the absence of some text
> > > > > indicating group-by- group processing.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Abstract
> > > > >
> > > > >    This document describes how to support efficiently endpoints r=
unning
> > > > >    IGMP for the above services over an EVPN network by incorporat=
ing
> > > > >    IGMP proxy procedures on EVPN PEs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see Lars already noted the dangling reference to "above service=
s".
> > > > > That really needs to be fixed before approval, and even looking
> > > > > at the diff from -
> > > > > 12 to -13 does not give me a clear picture of what to suggest as =
a
> rewrite.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 1
> > > > >
> > > > > I strongly suggest mentioning and referencing some of the core
> > > > > technologies that readers are assumed to be familiar with (e.g.,
> > > > > RFC
> > > > > 7432 for EVPN, RFC 6514 for various tunnel types including
> > > > > Ingress
> > > Replication).
> > > > > At present the document is quite unfriendly to a reader from an
> > > > > outside field, who has little to no indication as to what
> > > > > background material is required in order to be able to make sense=
 of this
> document.
> > > > >
> > > > >    In DC applications, a point of delivery (POD) can consist of
> > > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > > Data Center is not marked as "well-known" at
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-
> > > > > editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSLlJ3XlU$
> > > > > and needs to be expanded on first use.
> > > > >
> > > > >    2.  Distributed anycast multicast proxy: it is desirable for t=
he EVPN
> > > > >        network to act as a distributed anycast multicast router
> > > > > with
> > > > >
> > > > > I honestly don't know what a "distributed anycast multicast route=
r"
> > > > > is supposed to be.  Google finds only a handful of instances of
> > > > > that
> > > > > (quoted) phrase, most of which can be traced back to this documen=
t.
> > > > > There is a similar phrase in =A74.2 that perhaps clarifies that
> > > > > the collection of EVPN PEs is intended to function as a
> > > > > distributed multicast router (that is perhaps in some sense trans=
parent to
> the CEs).
> > > > > But how does the "anycast" part come into play?  How is the
> > > > > anycast IP address assigned, and which protocol messages is it co=
nveyed
> in?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 3
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest adding SMET to the terminology listed here.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  Ethernet Segment (ES): When a customer site (device or netw=
ork) is
> > > > >       connected to one or more PEs via a set of Ethernet links.
> > > > >
> > > > > That looks like an extremely unconventional definition for
> > > > > "Ethernet
> > > Segment".
> > > > >
> > > > >    Membership Report too.  Similarly, text for IGMPv2 applies to =
MLDv1
> > > > >    and text for IGMPv3 applies to MLDv2.  IGMP / MLD version enco=
ding in
> > > > >    BGP update is stated in Section 9
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest stating explicitly that this equivalence is possible
> > > > > because the indicated versions provide analogous functionality
> > > > > for IPv4 and
> > > IPv6, respectively.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > >        is considered as a new BGP route advertisement.  When diff=
erent
> > > > >        version of IGMP join are received, final state MUST be as =
per
> > > > >        section 5.1 of [RFC3376].  At the end of route processing =
local
> > > > >        and remote group record state MUST be as per section 5.1 o=
f
> > > > >        [RFC3376].
> > > > >
> > > > > I interpret "different version of IGMP join" as "join messages
> > > > > from different IGMP protocol versions", which makes this
> > > > > reference to RFC
> > > > > 3376 make no sense to me -- the referenced section does not talk
> > > > > about multiple protocol versions at all.  Please clarify what
> > > > > behavior from RFC 3376 is being referenced.
> > > > >
> > > > >        logged.  If the v3 flag is set (in addition to v2), then t=
he IE
> > > > >        flag MUST indicate "exclude".  If not, then an error SHOUL=
D be
> > > > >        logged.  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > It's great to say that this is an error condition and should be l=
ogged.
> > > > > What does the recipient actually do while processing the message?
> > > > > An RFC 7606 named behavior would be nice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.2
> > > > >
> > > > >    As mentioned in the previous sections, each PE MUST have proxy
> > > > >    querier functionality for the following reasons:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not really sure which previous mentions this is supposed to r=
efer to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 6.2.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to confirm: the PE receiving a BGP Leave Synch route does
> > > > > *not* produce local IGMP Query messages, on the assumption that
> > > > > the PE that did receive the Leave locally has already done so?
> > > > > (I don't think this necessarily needs to be written out in the
> > > > > document itself; I just want to confirm my understanding.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 6.3
> > > > >
> > > > >    A PE which has received an IGMP Membership Request would have
> synced
> > > > >    the IGMP Join by the procedure defined in section 6.1.  If a P=
E with
> > > > >    local join state goes down or the PE to CE link goes down, it =
would
> > > > >    lead to a mass withdraw of multicast routes.  Remote PEs (PEs
> > > > > where
> > > > >
> > > > > Can we have greater clarity on "would lead to"?  Are there
> > > > > actually routes that will be withdrawn and we are just ignoring
> > > > > the consequences of that for the purposes of local state, using
> > > > > some heuristic (as mentioned later) for detecting whether a
> > > > > mass-withdraw is due to a failure at a peer?  Or is the mass
> > > > > withdraw a hypothetical scenario
> > > that the procedures described here fully avoid?
> > > > >
> > > > >    these routes were remote IGMP Joins) SHOULD NOT remove the sta=
te
> > > > >    immediately; instead General Query SHOULD be generated to refr=
esh
> the
> > > > >    states.  There are several ways to detect failure at a peer, e=
.g.
> > > > >    using IGP next hop tracking or ES route withdraw.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does each PE initiate the General Query, in this scenario?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 7
> > > > >
> > > > >    Note that to facilitate state synchronization after failover, =
the PEs
> > > > >    attached to a multihomed ES operating in Single-Active redunda=
ncy
> > > > >    mode SHOULD also coordinate IGMP Join (x,G) state.  In this
> > > > > case all
> > > > >
> > > > > What are the drawbacks of not performing such synchronization?
> > > > > Alternately, in what cases does it make sense to not perform
> > > > > synchronization (so that the guidance is SHOULD rather than MUST)=
?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1
> > > > >
> > > > > It might be nice to mention that the length fields are measured
> > > > > in bits here in this section, where the NLRI format is laid out,
> > > > > in addition to
> > > > > =A79.1.1 where the procedures for constructing it are laid out.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  If route is used for IPv6 (MLD) then bit 7 indicates suppor=
t for
> > > > >       MLD version 1.  The second least significant bit, bit 6
> > > > > indicates
> > > > >
> > > > > How does the receiver know if the route is being used for IPv6?
> > > > > (Also applies in =A79.2, 9.3)
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there any requirement for consistency about using IPv4 vs
> > > > > IPv6 addresses in all three address fields?  The description
> > > > > given here would seem to allow mixing address families, but I
> > > > > don't really expect that to
> > > work in practice.
> > > > >
> > > > >    version and any source filtering for a given group membership.=
  All
> > > > >    EVPN SMET routes are announced with per- EVI Route Target exte=
nded
> > > > >    communities.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there a good reference for discussion of these associated ECs?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1.2
> > > > >
> > > > >    PE2 to receive multicast traffic.  In this case PE2 MUST origi=
nate a
> > > > >    (*,*) SMET route to receive all of the multicast traffic in th=
e EVPN
> > > > >    domain.  To generate Wildcards (*,*) routes, the procedure fro=
m
> > > > >    [RFC6625] SHOULD be used.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the PE expected to identify this case based on protocol
> > > > > messages received at runtime (e.g., any PIM at all), or is this e=
xternal
> configuration?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.3.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    Maximum Response Time is value to be used while sending query =
as
> > > > >    defined in [RFC2236]
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it actually right to describe this as "while sending query
> > > > > [messages]"?  My understanding is that a PE receiving this route
> > > > > over BGP would in fact *not* actually send IGMP Query messages,
> > > > > but simply use the time to set a timer and potentially clear up
> > > > > state if certain conditions are met at the end of the period in q=
uestion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 10
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to confirm my understanding here: in the immediate leave
> > > > > case, the Leave Synch route will be advertised just for the
> > > > > "delta" period of time described in
> > > > > =A76.2 and then withdrawn?
> > > > >
> > > > >    IGMP MAY be configured with immediate leave option.  This
> > > > > allows the
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there a suitable reference for "immediate leave"?  I did not
> > > > > see much relevant in RFCs 2236 and 3376.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 12
> > > > >
> > > > > I support Roman's point about detailing which aspects are
> > > > > covered in which referenced RFCs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also noted that the "delta" value used in the Last Member
> > > > > Query process must be configured on each node, and to the same va=
lue.
> > > > > Such requirement for identical configuration opens up the chance
> > > > > for skew, and sometimes any such skew is security-relevant and
> > > > > must be documented in the security considerations.  However, I'm
> > > > > not sure that that's the case, here, as it seems that skew would
> > > > > mostly only serve to cause a brief "blip" where a PE drops its
> > > > > group state only to recreate it when a report shows up later.
> > > > > Is there a scenario where the skew goes the other way, and a PE
> > > > > leaves group state in place
> > > indefinitely that should have been dropped?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 16.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Since we only reference RFC 4684 to say that its procedures are
> > > > > not applicable to what we describe, it seems like it could be
> > > > > classified as only an informative reference.
> > > > >
> > > > > NITS
> > > > >
> > > > > We seem quite inconsistent about whether we write "BCP Leave
> > > > > Synch route" or "IGMP Leave Synch route" (but I believe these
> > > > > are both supposed to be the same thing).
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 1
> > > > >
> > > > >    communication and orchestration.  However, EVPN is used as sta=
ndard
> > > > >    way of inter-POD communication for both intra-DC and
> > > > > inter-DC.  A
> > > > >
> > > > > intra-DC and inter-DC are both adjectives that need to modify som=
e
> noun.
> > > > > Please supply such a noun (e.g., "traffic").
> > > > >
> > > > >    These hosts express their interests in multicast groups on a g=
iven
> > > > >    subnet/VLAN by sending IGMP Membership Reports (Joins) for the=
ir
> > > > >    interested multicast group(s).  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that this phrase "IGMP Membership Reports (Joins)" is
> > > > > intended to serve some cross-protocol clarification role (e.g.,
> > > > > "Join" is used by
> > > > > IGMPv3 and MLD but not IGMPv2).  Since this is the first place
> > > > > where we use that formulation, some additional text to clarify
> > > > > the shorthand seems
> > > in order.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 3
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  BD: Broadcast Domain.  As per [RFC7432], an EVI consists of=
 a
> > > > >       single or multiple BDs.  In case of VLAN-bundle and
> > > > > VLAN-aware
> > > > >
> > > > > RFC 7432 spells "VLAN Bundle" with no hyphen.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  Single-Active Redundancy Mode: When only a single PE, among=
 all
> > > > >       the PEs attached to an Ethernet segment, is allowed to forw=
ard
> > > > >       traffic to/from that Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, the=
n the
> > > > >       Ethernet segment is defined to be operating in Single-Activ=
e
> > > > >       redundancy mode.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  All-Active Redundancy Mode: When all PEs attached to an Eth=
ernet
> > > > >       segment are allowed to forward known unicast traffic to/fro=
m that
> > > > >       Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, then the Ethernet segmen=
t is
> > > > >       defined to be operating in All-Active redundancy mode.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it important that the second definition only covers "unicast t=
raffic"
> > > > > but the former uses the unqualified term "traffic"?
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  OIF: Outgoing Interface for multicast.  It can be physical
> > > > >       interface, virtual interface or tunnel.
> > > > >
> > > > > s/physical/a physical/
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4
> > > > >
> > > > >    The IGMP Proxy mechanism is used to reduce the flooding of IGM=
P
> > > > >    messages over an EVPN network similar to ARP proxy used in
> > > > > reducing
> > > > >
> > > > > "similarly to how ARP proxy is used"
> > > > >
> > > > >    speakers.  The information is again translated back to IGMP me=
ssage
> > > > >    at the recipient EVPN speaker.  Thus it helps create an IGMP
> > > > > overlay
> > > > >
> > > > > "IGMP messages" plural, to match the previous sentence.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    1.  When the first hop PE receives several IGMP Membership Rep=
orts
> > > > >        (Joins), belonging to the same IGMP version, from differen=
t
> > > > >        attached hosts for the same (*,G) or (S,G), it SHOULD send=
 a
> > > > >        single BGP message corresponding to the very first IGMP
> > > > >        Membership Request (BGP update as soon as possible) for th=
at
> > > > >        (*,G) or (S,G).  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > What is an "IGMP Membership Request"?  Is this just a typo for Re=
port?
> > > > >
> > > > >                         This is because BGP is a stateful protoco=
l and
> > > > >        no further transmission of the same report is needed.  If =
the
> > > > >        IGMP Membership Request is for (*,G), then multicast group
> > > > >        address MUST be sent along with the corresponding version =
flag
> > > > >        (v2 or v3) set.  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > (ditto)
> > > > >
> > > > >                                    If the IGMP Join is for (S,G),=
 then
> > > > >        besides setting multicast group address along with the ver=
sion
> > > > >        flag v3, the source IP address and the IE flag MUST be set=
.
> > > > > It
> > > > >
> > > > > "setting the multicast group address" (add "the").
> > > > >
> > > > >    2.  When the first hop PE receives an IGMPv3 Join for (S,G) on=
 a
> > > > >        given BD, it SHOULD advertise the corresponding EVPN Selec=
tive
> > > > >        Multicast Ethernet Tag (SMET) route regardless of whether
> > > > > the
> > > > >
> > > > > Forward reference Section 9.1, please?
> > > > >
> > > > >    4.  When the first hop PE receives an IGMP version-X Join firs=
t for
> > > > >        (*,G) and then later it receives an IGMPv3 Join for the sa=
me
> > > > >        multicast group address but for a specific source address =
S, then
> > > > >        the PE MUST advertise a new EVPN SMET route with v3 flag s=
et (and
> > > > >        v2 reset).  The IE flag also need to be set accordingly.
> > > > > Since
> > > > >
> > > > > What does "v2 reset" mean?  "The v2 flag is not set" or "the v2
> > > > > flag is
> > > cleared"?
> > > > > I recommend not using the word "reset" in this context as it's am=
biguous.
> > > > >
> > > > >    7.  Upon receiving EVPN SMET route(s) and before generating th=
e
> > > > >        corresponding IGMP Membership Request(s), the PE checks
> > > > > to see
> > > > >
> > > > > "Membership Request" again.
> > > > >
> > > > >        whether it has any CE multicast router for that BD on any =
of its
> > > > >        ES's . The PE provides such a check by listening for PIM H=
ello
> > > > >        messages on that AC (i.e, ES,BD).  If the PE does have the
> > > > >        router's ACs, then the generated IGMP Membership Request(s=
) are
> > > > >        sent to those ACs.  If it doesn't have any of the router's=
 AC,
> > > > >        then no IGMP Membership Request(s) needs to be generated.
> > > > > [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > The writing here seems rather jumbled, though perhaps I just
> > > > > misunderstand the terminology in question.  Assuming that a PE
> > > > > router has one or more ACs connecting it to one or more CE
> > > > > routers (possibly in a many-to-many fashion), then I don't see
> > > > > how we can write about the PE "have[ing] [any of] the router's
> > > > > ACs" -- wouldn't the relevant criterion be that the AC has CE
> > > > > routers participating in
> > > multicast?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.1.2
> > > > >
> > > > >    2.  When a PE receives an EVPN SMET route for a given (*,G), i=
t
> > > > >        compares the received version flags from the route with it=
s per-
> > > > >        PE stored version flags.  If the PE finds that a version f=
lag
> > > > >        associated with the (*,G) for the remote PE is reset,
> > > > > then the PE
> > > > >
> > > > > [same comment about the word "reset" as above]
> > > > >
> > > > >        MUST generate IGMP Leave for that (*,G) toward its local
> > > > >        interface (if any) attached to the multicast router for
> > > > > that
> > > > >
> > > > > Probably "router(s)" since there could be more than one.
> > > > > And "interface(s)" as well?
> > > > >
> > > > >        multicast group.  It should be noted that the received EVP=
N route
> > > > >        MUST at least have one version flag set.  If all version f=
lags
> > > > >        are reset, it is an error because the PE should have
> > > > > received an
> > > > >
> > > > > ["reset" again]
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 5
> > > > >
> > > > >    Consider the EVPN network of Figure-1, where there is an EVPN
> > > > >    instance configured across the PEs shown in this figure (namel=
y PE1,
> > > > >    PE2, and PE3).  Let's consider that this EVPN instance consist=
s of a
> > > > >    single bridge domain (single subnet) with all the hosts,
> > > > > sources, and
> > > > >
> > > > > This is the only instance of the word "bridge" in this document
> > > > > (but "broadcast domain" appears as a defined term).  Is "BD" inte=
nded?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 5.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    all these local ports are associated with the hosts.  PE1 send=
s an
> > > > >    EVPN Multicast Group route corresponding to this join for (*,G=
1) and
> > > > >    setting v2 flag.  This EVPN route is received by PE2 and PE3
> > > > > that are
> > > > >
> > > > > s/setting/sets the/
> > > > >
> > > > >    information.  However, when it receives the IGMPv3 Join from H=
3 for
> > > > >    the same (*,G1).  Besides adding the corresponding port to
> > > > > its OIF
> > > > >
> > > > > incomplete sentence; could add ", EVPN messaging is required" to
> > > > > connect to the next sentence.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 6
> > > > >
> > > > >    either DF or non-DF; i.e., different IGMP Membership Request
> > > > > messages
> > > > >
> > > > > "Membership Request" again.
> > > > >
> > > > >    needed.  All-Active multihoming PEs for a given ES MUST suppor=
t IGMP
> > > > >    synchronization procedures described in this section if they n=
eed to
> > > > >    perform IGMP proxy for hosts connected to that ES.
> > > > >
> > > > > Can we unpack the actual requirement here?  Is it: "if a given
> > > > > ES uses all-active multihoming, in order for IGMP proxying to be
> > > > > used on that ES, all the PEs on that segment must support the
> > > > > synchronization procedures described in the following subsections=
"?
> > > > > The analogous text in =A76.2 seems more clear to me on what the
> > > > > preconditions are.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, s/MUST support/MUST support the/ and s/IGMP proxy/IGMP
> > > > > proxying/
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 6.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    belongs.  If the PE doesn't already have local IGMP Membership
> > > > >    Request (x,G) state for that BD on that ES, it MUST instantiat=
e local
> > > > >    IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state and MUST advertise a BGP
> > > > > IGMP
> > > > >
> > > > > "Membership Request", albeit perhaps defensible since it is "stat=
e"
> > > > > and not a message being sent.
> > > > >
> > > > >    Join Synch route for that (ES,BD).  Local IGMP Membership Requ=
est
> > > > >    (x,G) state refers to IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state that=
 is
> > > > >    created as a result of processing an IGMP Membership Report fo=
r
> > > > >    (x,G).
> > > > >
> > > > > It's typically easier for the reader when the new term is
> > > > > defined before it is used, rather than after.  Especially so
> > > > > when the defined term is similar to an existing,
> > > > > well-established, term that means
> > > something else.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  This EVPN route type is used to carry tenant IGMP multicast=
 group
> > > > >       information.  The flag field assists in distributing IGMP
> > > > >       Membership Report of a given host for a given multicast rou=
te.
> > > > >       The version bits help associate IGMP version of receivers
> > > > >       participating within the EVPN domain.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  The include/exclude bit helps in creating filters for a giv=
en
> > > > >       multicast route.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is "assists" and "helps" really the terminology we want to use
> > > > > when this information is literally required in order to
> > > > > construct the relevant IGMP messages?  (Similarly for the
> > > > > subsequent subsections.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    The Originator Router Address is the IP address of router orig=
inating
> > > > >    this route.  The SMET Originator Router IP address MUST match =
that of
> > > > >    the IMET (or S-PMSI AD) route originated for the same EVI by t=
he same
> > > > >    downstream PE.
> > > > >
> > > > > References for IMET and S-PMSI AD might be nice.
> > > > >
> > > > >    The Flags field indicates the version of IGMP protocol from wh=
ich the
> > > > >    Membership Report was received.  It also indicates whether
> > > > > the
> > > > >
> > > > > Probably "version(s)" and "Report(s)" since we encourage coalesci=
ng.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.3.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    Maximum Response Time is value to be used while sending query =
as
> > > > >    defined in [RFC2236]
> > > > >
> > > > > "the value to be used while sending queries" (though see the
> > > > > non-nit
> > > comment).
> > > > >
> > > > >


From nobody Mon Feb  7 13:46:53 2022
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Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-09: Discuss

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email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


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for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for the work put into this document. This protocol is important for
scalable and deployable SRv6 services.

Please find below some blocking DISCUSS points (easy to address), some
non-blocking COMMENT points (but replies would be appreciated even if only for
my own education).

Special thanks to Matthew Bocci for the shepherd's write-up including the
section about the WG consensus and document history.

Please also expect an INT directorate review before the IESG telechat (I may
update this ballot accordingly).

I hope that this helps to improve the document,

Regards,

-éric

# DISCUSS

As noted in https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/, a
DISCUSS ballot is a request to have a discussion on the following topics:

## Section 3.1

"IANA registry defined in section 9.2 of [RFC8986]" but there is no section 9.2
in RFC 8986. I guess it is section 10.2. Moreover, IANA registries are usually
referred to via their name/URL, e.g.,
https://www.iana.org/assignments/segment-routing/segment-routing.xhtml, and not
by a section of the RFC that created them.

## Section 3.2.1

Where is "locator node" defined ? "locator block" is defined in section 3.1 of
RFC 8986 but not the node (I can only guess that this is the "N" in the "B:N"
notation used in RFC 8986).

## Section 6

Section 9 of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16 indeed defines route types
7 and 8 but it uses non IPv4-only wording. So, s/IGMP join sync route/Multicast
Membership Report Synch Route/ + same for type 8.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

# COMMENTS

## Section 1

More details on the encapsulation (plain IP in IPv6 ?) will be welcome in "The
   ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 header where the
   destination address is the SRv6 Service SID provided by the egress
   Provider Edge (PE). "

## Section 3.2.1

The transposition field appears to be about "labels", which are not qualified.
Should the reader assume that those are "MPLS labels" ? A reference to some
text would be welcome. Not being a SRv6 expert (but somehow knowledgeable on
the topic), all the text about transposition is completely opaque to me.

The section 4 appears to give some information, but there should at least be a
forward reference to it in section 3.2.1 or even better the section 4 should be
moved before section 3.2.1.

## Section 4

This section would benefit from examples & figures.

While the specification probably works well, mapping a 128-bit IPv6 SID into
what looks like a 20-bit MPLS label looks like a smart kludge (for compression
efficiency) but still...

## Section 5

"...optionally insert an SRH [RFC8754] when required..." looks like an oxymoron
to me, i.e., if it is required then it is no more optional. Same issue in other
places (notably section 6).

5th § "the ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 header", is it
"payload" of the ingress packet or the whole packet itself ?

## Section 10

The protocol defined in this document is a sibling of the EPVN and other
layer-3 VPN using BGP as a control plane. I would have expected to have a
mostly identical security section. The similarity is indeed indicated in the
2nd § but this 2nd § would benefit by also giving the RFC titles rather than a
dry list of RFCs.

The 3rd § appears a little self-contradicting to my reading. The first part
rightfully confirms that SRv6 domain should be closed and makes reference to
SRH and network-programming security sections, i.e., isolation/protection in
the data plane. Then, the last part of this § is "Therefore, precaution is
necessary to ensure that the BGP service information (including associated SRv6
SID) advertised via BGP sessions are limited to peers within this trusted SR
domain. " which seems to contradict the first part. IMHO, the words "is
necessary" is an overkill, something like "Precautions should be taken to
ensure..." would be more appropriate.

To elaborate on the previous comment:

- isn't it *exactly* the same security issues as for EPVN and other BGP-based
VPN ? So, already covered by the 2nd § ?

- even if there is yet-another BGP leak with SRv6 SID, then what are the
consequences ? SRv6 data plane (as explained in the first sentences of this 3rd
§) MUST be protected anyway and will protect the SRv6 domain completely, else
the operator has more critical issues.

In short, readers will benefit from a shorter and clearer 3rd paragraph.

Final suggestion for the security section: what happens when the length of all
sub-sub-TLVs exceeds the length of the sub-TLV ? And similar corner cases. This
is of course more an implementation issue but should it be mentioned here ?

I note that the security directorate review result is "ready".




From nobody Mon Feb  7 16:52:16 2022
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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws-fxc-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : EVPN VPWS Flexible Cross-Connect Service
        Authors         : Ali Sajassi
                          Patrice Brissette
                          James Uttaro
                          John Drake
                          Sami Boutros
                          Jorge Rabadan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws-fxc-04.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2022-02-07

Abstract:
   This document describes a new EVPN VPWS service type specifically for
   multiplexing multiple attachment circuits across different Ethernet
   Segments and physical interfaces into a single EVPN VPWS service
   tunnel and still providing Single-Active and All-Active multi-homing.
   This new service is referred to as flexible cross-connect service.
   After a description of the rationale for this new service type, the
   solution to deliver such service is detailed.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws-fxc/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws-fxc-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws-fxc-04


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : EVPN VPWS Flexible Cross-Connect Service
        Authors         : Ali Sajassi
                          Patrice Brissette
                          James Uttaro
                          John Drake
                          Sami Boutros
                          Jorge Rabadan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws-fxc-05.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2022-02-08

Abstract:
   This document describes a new EVPN VPWS service type specifically for
   multiplexing multiple attachment circuits across different Ethernet
   Segments and physical interfaces into a single EVPN VPWS service
   tunnel and still providing Single-Active and All-Active multi-homing.
   This new service is referred to as flexible cross-connect service.
   After a description of the rationale for this new service type, the
   solution to deliver such service is detailed.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws-fxc/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws-fxc-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws-fxc-05


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



From nobody Tue Feb  8 09:02:15 2022
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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : SRv6 BGP based Overlay Services
        Authors         : Gaurav Dawra
                          Clarence Filsfils
                          Ketan Talaulikar
                          Robert Raszuk
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Shunwan Zhuang
                          Jorge Rabadan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10.txt
	Pages           : 31
	Date            : 2022-02-08

Abstract:
   This document defines procedures and messages for SRv6-based BGP
   services including L3VPN, EVPN, and Internet services.  It builds on
   RFC4364 "BGP/MPLS IP Virtual Private Networks (VPNs)" and RFC7432
   "BGP MPLS-Based Ethernet VPN".


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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Hi Eric,

Thanks for your review and comments/feedback. Please check inline below for
responses.

We've also just posted an update to address your comments:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10


On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 3:16 AM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker 
wrote:

> =C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-09: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thank you for the work put into this document. This protocol is important
> for
> scalable and deployable SRv6 services.
>
> Please find below some blocking DISCUSS points (easy to address), some
> non-blocking COMMENT points (but replies would be appreciated even if onl=
y
> for
> my own education).
>
> Special thanks to Matthew Bocci for the shepherd's write-up including the
> section about the WG consensus and document history.
>
> Please also expect an INT directorate review before the IESG telechat (I
> may
> update this ballot accordingly).
>
> I hope that this helps to improve the document,
>
> Regards,
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
> # DISCUSS
>
> As noted in https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/, a
> DISCUSS ballot is a request to have a discussion on the following topics:
>
> ## Section 3.1
>
> "IANA registry defined in section 9.2 of [RFC8986]" but there is no
> section 9.2
> in RFC 8986. I guess it is section 10.2. Moreover, IANA registries are
> usually
> referred to via their name/URL, e.g.,
> https://www.iana.org/assignments/segment-routing/segment-routing.xhtml,
> and not
> by a section of the RFC that created them.
>

KT> Ack. It should have been Section 10.2. We have updated the text as
below:

Encodes SRv6 Endpoint behavior codepoint value that is associated with SRv6
SID. The codepoints used are from the SRv6 Endpoint Behavior registry under
the IANA Segment Routing Parameters registry that was introduced by
[RFC8986].


>
> ## Section 3.2.1
>
> Where is "locator node" defined ? "locator block" is defined in section
> 3.1 of
> RFC 8986 but not the node (I can only guess that this is the "N" in the
> "B:N"
> notation used in RFC 8986).
>

KT> Your understanding is correct. We have added the text below

The terms Locator Block and Locator Node correspond to the B and N parts
respectively of the SRv6 Locator that are defined in section 3.1 of
[RFC8986].


>
> ## Section 6
>
> Section 9 of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16 indeed defines route
> types
> 7 and 8 but it uses non IPv4-only wording. So, s/IGMP join sync
> route/Multicast
> Membership Report Synch Route/ + same for type 8.
>

KT> Ack. We have fixed to use route type names as per the latest version of
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy.


>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> # COMMENTS
>
> ## Section 1
>
> More details on the encapsulation (plain IP in IPv6 ?) will be welcome in
> "The
>    ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 header where the
>    destination address is the SRv6 Service SID provided by the egress
>    Provider Edge (PE). "
>

KT> The inner packet being the service traffic, will vary (IPv4, IPv6, or
Ethernet) and hence is not described here. We have added text in sections 5
and 6 to refer to the H.Encaps and H.Encaps.L2 behaviors introduced in
RFC8986 to explain the encapsulations.


>
> ## Section 3.2.1
>
> The transposition field appears to be about "labels", which are not
> qualified.
> Should the reader assume that those are "MPLS labels" ? A reference to so=
me
> text would be welcome. Not being a SRv6 expert (but somehow knowledgeable
> on
> the topic), all the text about transposition is completely opaque to me.
>
> The section 4 appears to give some information, but there should at least
> be a
> forward reference to it in section 3.2.1 or even better the section 4
> should be
> moved before section 3.2.1.
>

KT> We have qualified the word "label" as "MPLS label" in section 3.2.1.
Changing the order of sections may affect readability - we now introduce
the TLVs first and then explain how they are used for encoding.


>
> ## Section 4
>
> This section would benefit from examples & figures.
>
> While the specification probably works well, mapping a 128-bit IPv6 SID
> into
> what looks like a 20-bit MPLS label looks like a smart kludge (for
> compression
> efficiency) but still...
>

KT> The last two paragraphs of this section do provide examples; they do
assume a good understanding of the concerned BGP features though.


>
> ## Section 5
>
> "...optionally insert an SRH [RFC8754] when required..." looks like an
> oxymoron
> to me, i.e., if it is required then it is no more optional. Same issue in
> other
> places (notably section 6).
>

KT> We have removed the "optionally" from it.


>
> 5th =C2=A7 "the ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 head=
er",
> is it
> "payload" of the ingress packet or the whole packet itself ?
>

KT> The payload is the inner IPv4/IPv6/Ethernet packet. We have clarified
this.


>
> ## Section 10
>
> The protocol defined in this document is a sibling of the EPVN and other
> layer-3 VPN using BGP as a control plane. I would have expected to have a
> mostly identical security section. The similarity is indeed indicated in
> the
> 2nd =C2=A7 but this 2nd =C2=A7 would benefit by also giving the RFC title=
s rather
> than a
> dry list of RFCs.
>

KT> We have provided abbreviated RFC titles.


>
> The 3rd =C2=A7 appears a little self-contradicting to my reading. The fir=
st part
> rightfully confirms that SRv6 domain should be closed and makes reference
> to
> SRH and network-programming security sections, i.e., isolation/protection
> in
> the data plane. Then, the last part of this =C2=A7 is "Therefore, precaut=
ion is
> necessary to ensure that the BGP service information (including associate=
d
> SRv6
> SID) advertised via BGP sessions are limited to peers within this trusted
> SR
> domain. " which seems to contradict the first part. IMHO, the words "is
> necessary" is an overkill, something like "Precautions should be taken to
> ensure..." would be more appropriate.
>

KT> Agree. Please see the further responses as well.


>
> To elaborate on the previous comment:
>
> - isn't it *exactly* the same security issues as for EPVN and other
> BGP-based
> VPN ? So, already covered by the 2nd =C2=A7 ?
>

KT> Yes


>
> - even if there is yet-another BGP leak with SRv6 SID, then what are the
> consequences ? SRv6 data plane (as explained in the first sentences of
> this 3rd
> =C2=A7) MUST be protected anyway and will protect the SRv6 domain complet=
ely,
> else
> the operator has more critical issues.
>

KT> Yes, this is correct.


>
> In short, readers will benefit from a shorter and clearer 3rd paragraph.
>

KT> We have updated the text for clarity.


>
> Final suggestion for the security section: what happens when the length o=
f
> all
> sub-sub-TLVs exceeds the length of the sub-TLV ? And similar corner cases=
.
> This
> is of course more an implementation issue but should it be mentioned here=
 ?
>

KT> This is covered in section 8 and the reference to RFC7606 explains how
these errors are to be handled.

Thanks,
Ketan


>
> I note that the security directorate review result is "ready".
>
>
>
>

--000000000000b367fa05d784bc0f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Eric,

Thanks for yo=
ur review and comments/feedback. Please check inline below for responses.

We've also just posted an update to address you=
r comments:

On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 3:16 AM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatra=
cker <noreply@ietf=
.org> wrote:
=C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-09: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/h=
andling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-bess-srv6-services/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



Thank you for the work put into this document. This protocol is important f=
or

scalable and deployable SRv6 services.



Please find below some blocking DISCUSS points (easy to address), some

non-blocking COMMENT points (but replies would be appreciated even if only =
for

my own education).



Special thanks to Matthew Bocci for the shepherd's write-up including t=
he

section about the WG consensus and document history.



Please also expect an INT directorate review before the IESG telechat (I ma=
y

update this ballot accordingly).



I hope that this helps to improve the document,



Regards,



-=C3=A9ric



# DISCUSS



As noted in https://www.ietf.org/blog/handl=
ing-iesg-ballot-positions/, a

DISCUSS ballot is a request to have a discussion on the following topics:


## Section 3.1



"IANA registry defined in section 9.2 of [RFC8986]" but there is =
no section 9.2

in RFC 8986. I guess it is section 10.2. Moreover, IANA registries are usua=
lly

referred to via their name/URL, e.g.,

https://www.iana.org/assignmen=
ts/segment-routing/segment-routing.xhtml, and not

by a section of the RFC that created them.

<=
div>KT> Ack. It should have been Section 10.2. We have updated the text =
as below:

Encodes SRv6 Endpoint behavior codepoint=
 value that is associated with SRv6 SID. The codepoints used are from the S=
Rv6 Endpoint Behavior registry under the IANA Segment Routing Parameters re=
gistry that was introduced by [RFC8986].
=C2=A0



## Section 3.2.1



Where is "locator node" defined ? "locator block" is de=
fined in section 3.1 of

RFC 8986 but not the node (I can only guess that this is the "N" =
in the "B:N"

notation used in RFC 8986).

KT> Your=
 understanding is correct. We have added the text below=C2=A0
The terms Locator Block and Locator Node correspond to the B an=
d N parts respectively of the SRv6 Locator that are defined in section 3.1 =
of [RFC8986].
=C2=A0



## Section 6



Section 9 of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16 indeed defines route ty=
pes

7 and 8 but it uses non IPv4-only wording. So, s/IGMP join sync route/Multi=
cast

Membership Report Synch Route/ + same for type 8.

=

KT> Ack. We have fixed to use route type names as per the lat=
est version of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy.
=C2=A0
<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">




----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



# COMMENTS



## Section 1



More details on the encapsulation (plain IP in IPv6 ?) will be welcome in &=
quot;The

=C2=A0 =C2=A0ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 header wh=
ere the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0destination address is the SRv6 Service SID provided by the eg=
ress

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Provider Edge (PE). "

KT> The inner packet being the service traffic, will vary (IPv4, IPv6, =
or Ethernet) and hence is not described here. We have added text in section=
s 5 and 6 to refer to the H.Encaps and H.Encaps.L2 behaviors introduced in =
RFC8986 to explain the encapsulations.
=C2=A0



## Section 3.2.1



The transposition field appears to be about "labels", which are n=
ot qualified.

Should the reader assume that those are "MPLS labels" ? A referen=
ce to some

text would be welcome. Not being a SRv6 expert (but somehow knowledgeable o=
n

the topic), all the text about transposition is completely opaque to me.


The section 4 appears to give some information, but there should at least b=
e a

forward reference to it in section 3.2.1 or even better the section 4 shoul=
d be

moved before section 3.2.1.

KT> We h=
ave qualified the word "label" as "MPLS label" in secti=
on 3.2.1. Changing the order of sections may affect readability - we now in=
troduce the TLVs first and then explain how they are used for encoding.
=C2=A0



## Section 4



This section would benefit from examples & figures.



While the specification probably works well, mapping a 128-bit IPv6 SID int=
o

what looks like a 20-bit MPLS label looks like a smart kludge (for compress=
ion

efficiency) but still...

KT> The las=
t two paragraphs of this section do provide examples; they do assume a good=
 understanding of the concerned BGP features though.
=C2=A0
=




## Section 5



"...optionally insert an SRH [RFC8754] when required..." looks li=
ke an oxymoron

to me, i.e., if it is required then it is no more optional. Same issue in o=
ther

places (notably section 6).

KT> We h=
ave removed the "optionally" from it.
=C2=A0



5th =C2=A7 "the ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 h=
eader", is it

"payload" of the ingress packet or the whole packet itself ?
<=
/blockquote>

KT> The payload is the inner IPv4/IPv6/E=
thernet packet. We have clarified this.
=C2=A0



## Section 10



The protocol defined in this document is a sibling of the EPVN and other
layer-3 VPN using BGP as a control plane. I would have expected to have a
mostly identical security section. The similarity is indeed indicated in th=
e

2nd =C2=A7 but this 2nd =C2=A7 would benefit by also giving the RFC titles =
rather than a

dry list of RFCs.

KT> We have provid=
ed abbreviated RFC titles.
=C2=A0



The 3rd =C2=A7 appears a little self-contradicting to my reading. The first=
 part

rightfully confirms that SRv6 domain should be closed and makes reference t=
o

SRH and network-programming security sections, i.e., isolation/protection i=
n

the data plane. Then, the last part of this =C2=A7 is "Therefore, prec=
aution is

necessary to ensure that the BGP service information (including associated =
SRv6

SID) advertised via BGP sessions are limited to peers within this trusted S=
R

domain. " which seems to contradict the first part. IMHO, the words &q=
uot;is

necessary" is an overkill, something like "Precautions should be =
taken to

ensure..." would be more appropriate.

<=
div>KT> Agree. Please see the further responses as well.
=C2=
=A0



To elaborate on the previous comment:



- isn't it *exactly* the same security issues as for EPVN and other BGP=
-based

VPN ? So, already covered by the 2nd =C2=A7 ?

KT> Yes
=C2=A0



- even if there is yet-another BGP leak with SRv6 SID, then what are the
consequences ? SRv6 data plane (as explained in the first sentences of this=
 3rd

=C2=A7) MUST be protected anyway and will protect the SRv6 domain completel=
y, else

the operator has more critical issues.

=
KT> Yes, this is correct.
=C2=A0



In short, readers will benefit from a shorter and clearer 3rd paragraph.

KT> We have updated the text for clari=
ty.
=C2=A0



Final suggestion for the security section: what happens when the length of =
all

sub-sub-TLVs exceeds the length of the sub-TLV ? And similar corner cases. =
This

is of course more an implementation issue but should it be mentioned here ?=


KT> This is covered in section 8 an=
d the reference to RFC7606 explains how these errors are to be handled.

Thanks,
Ketan
=C2=A0



I note that the security directorate review result is "ready".









--000000000000b367fa05d784bc0f--


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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum : All PEs as DF: Distributed firewall-gateways across Overlay fabrics
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--_000_SJ0PR84MB1992FB25FB7CE702912AF016942E9SJ0PR84MB1992NAMP_
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Hello Members,
I think this document should be part of the Bess WG as it attends to specif=
ic and unattended use-case.

Thanks
Saumya.

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dikshit, Saumya
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 10:34 AM
To: bess@ietf.org
Subject: [bess] draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum : All PEs as DF: Distribu=
ted firewall-gateways across Overlay fabrics

[changing the subject line]

Hello Bess Members, Chairs,

We have covered a use-case which is not handled by any of the existing stan=
dard documents in bess.
The details of use-case are also discussed in the email chain below.

Kindly provide you inputs or feedback on the proposed changes in the draft =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/

Thanks
Saumya.

From: Dikshit, Saumya
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 12:46 PM
To: Dikshit, Saumya >=
; Joshi, Vinayak >; Rab=
adan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) >; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df-=
election-framework@ietf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and =
rfc

Hi Jorge and Bess member

Can you please go provide your inputs on the use-case and solution describe=
d in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/

Thanks
Saumya.

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dikshit, Saumya
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 4:44 PM
To: Joshi, Vinayak >; R=
abadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) >; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-d=
f-election-framework@ietf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recove=
ry and rfc

Hi Jorge and Members of Bess WG,

Please let us know your views on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sau=
mvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/.
We have described the use-case this draft intends to solve, leveraging the =
existing TLVs.
Please include this as wg draft.

Thanks
Saumya.

From: Dikshit, Saumya
Sent: Friday, September 3, 2021 5:53 PM
To: Joshi, Vinayak >; R=
abadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) >; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-d=
f-election-framework@ietf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and =
rfc

Hi Jorge and others in Bess WG,

We have come out with a new draft to which proposes a DF-election-mode wher=
e in all the PEs intend to play the DF-role.
Please go through the document and provide your comments: https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/

Thanks
Saumya.


From: Joshi, Vinayak
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 5:22 PM
To: Dikshit, Saumya >=
; Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) >; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org<=
mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-bess-evp=
n-df-election-framework@ietf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and =
rfc

+1 for standard compliance on the control plane to indicate [All Active + A=
ll DF].
However, I think local bias is still needed to prevent some scenarios

E.g.:
1)  Host1 sends out ARP request for the Firewall.
2)  It reaches VTEP-1 over VxLAN from Vtep_Host1. Two options at Vtep_1

a)      Proprietary Option:  VTEP 2 does not forward it over the VxLAN DCI =
tunnel to Vtep2. I.e. VTEP 1 has to match the ARP for Firewall.

b)       Vtep_1 sends it over VTEP 2 on VxLAN DCI. VTEP 2's local bias proc=
edure prevents it from getting into Firewall_2.  This makes it easier to im=
plement on Vtep_2. This is because Vtep_1 need not selectively block BUM ov=
er the VxLAN tunnel (ARP from Host1 to resolve Host2's IP has to be forward=
ed by Vtep_1 to Vtep_2).

Regards,
Vinayak



From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dikshit, Saumya
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 11:39 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) >; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.or=
g; draft-ietf-bess-e=
vpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recove=
ry and rfc


>>>> If you still want to control the unicast and BUM flows to one FW or th=
e other depending on the leaf, you can still do it but that's implementatio=
n specific since it relies on the route selection in vtep_host1 and vtep_ho=
st2.
+1 on the implementation part. It's good to have few proprietary solutions =
in place.
On another note, the best way forward could be the standards-support/enable=
r for EVPN control-plane;
like an option to allow more than one PEs (in active-active) to process the=
 BUM (arp request) traffic.

Thanks
Saumya.

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) [mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia=
.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 9:40 PM
To: Dikshit, Saumya >=
; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ie=
tf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and =
rfc

I think you are saying that the FW can fail but it's interface to the leaf =
is oper-up. I don't think the network can do anything to prevent traffic to=
 that interface then.

And of course, in your new diagram local bias does not play. As I said, loc=
al bias works in the previous diagram.
Those new leaf nodes will do aliasing to the remote all-active ES.

If you still want to control the unicast and BUM flows to one FW or the oth=
er depending on the leaf, you can still do it but that's implementation spe=
cific since it relies on the route selection in vtep_host1 and vtep_host2.

Thx
Jorge


From: Dikshit, Saumya >
Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 8:49 AM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) >, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.or=
g >, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org >
Cc: bess@ietf.org >
Subject: RE: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and =
rfc
>>> the static mac is configured associated to an interface and conditional=
ly active based on the oper-status of the interface
Ack on that and that's pretty organic (tying it to the interface/AC state).
But it may not solve the case where other hosts (other than firewall) are b=
ehind the interface/AC (which is live and kicking).
Need to track firewall state and trigger an administrative delete of the st=
atic-MAC.


>>>
As I mentioned I should have added first_hop vtep/PE for Host1/2 as well,
to reflect that reachability to firewall from the host(s) is across the Ove=
rlay (EVPN fabric).

I have redone the topology to show host1 and host2 behind first hop vteps "=
Vtep_host1" and "Vtep_host2" respectively.
In this updated topology local-bias will not come into play, as traffic fro=
m host1/2 to firewall arrives over the evpn-fabric.
.

    SITE-1                 |                         SITE-2
------------------------------------------------------
      Host1                                          Host2
          \                                              /
Vtep_host1                              Vtep_host2
         |                                                   |
         |       [ EVPN-fabric ]                |
         |                                                   |
     Vtep1  =3D=3D =3D=3DWAN=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D  Vtep2
       /                                                     \
Firewall _1                              Firewall_2
  (MAC_F)                                  (MAC_F)



From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) [mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia=
.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 9:04 PM
To: Dikshit, Saumya >=
; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ie=
tf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and =
rfc

About this:

>>>> the local static MAC disappears
As I have observed in few implementations that static MACs are admin-config=
ured (other than control-plane published with sticky-bit).
So will need a admin intervention to clean them up.


In the implementations I know, the static mac is configured associated to a=
n interface and conditionally active based on the oper-status of the interf=
ace. So no admin intervention. IMHO it does not make much sense to keep a s=
tatic mac installed if the associated attachment circuit is down.

Thanks.
Jorge

From: Dikshit, Saumya >
Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 8:28 AM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) >, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.or=
g >, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org >
Cc: bess@ietf.org >
Subject: RE: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and =
rfc
Thanks Again Rabadan and apology for the confusion.

As I mentioned I should have added first_hop vtep/PE for Host1/2 as well,
to reflect that reachability to firewall from the host(s) is across the Ove=
rlay (EVPN fabric).

I have redone the topology to show host1 and host2 behind first hop vteps "=
Vtep_host1" and "Vtep_host2" respectively.
In this updated topology local-bias will not come into play, as traffic fro=
m host1/2 to firewall arrives over the evpn-fabric.
.

    SITE-1                 |                         SITE-2
------------------------------------------------------
      Host1                                          Host2
          \                                              /
Vtep_host1                              Vtep_host2
         |                                                   |
         |       [ EVPN-fabric ]                |
         |                                                   |
     Vtep1  =3D=3D =3D=3DWAN=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D  Vtep2
       /                                                     \
Firewall _1                              Firewall_2
  (MAC_F)                                  (MAC_F)

>>>> the local static MAC disappears
As I have observed in few implementations that static MACs are admin-config=
ured (other than control-plane published with sticky-bit).
So will need a admin intervention to clean them up.

Thanks
Saumya.

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) [mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia=
.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 8:35 PM
To: Dikshit, Saumya >=
; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ie=
tf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and =
rfc

For the first case, again, for the local hosts, local bias makes sure the A=
RP requests go only to the local FW, i.e. host-1 ARP Requests goes to FW-1 =
only, irrespective of the DF state.

For the second case, I don't understand. When the local FW goes down, the l=
ocal static MAC disappears and the one from the EVPN route should be instal=
led.

Thx
Jorge

From: Dikshit, Saumya >
Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 7:56 AM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) >, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.or=
g >, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org >
Cc: bess@ietf.org >
Subject: RE: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and =
rfc
Thanks a lot for a prompt reply Jorge.

Well I missed drawing the Host(s) behind the remote Vtep (PE) assuming that=
 it will not make any difference (except aliasing as you mentioned).

>>>> FW1 and FW2 can be attached to the same all-active ES
How to handle the broadcast packets like ARP request for the firewaill cred=
entials ? ARP request (MAC_F) should to sent to the local vtep, which shoul=
d act as a DF.
The hairpinning of ARP request to remote DF (over WAN), should be avoided. =
That's the reason it would be good to have two DFs for the {ESI, Bridge-dom=
ain} in this scenario.

>>>> In the implementations that I know, the local static MAC will be prefe=
rred over the EVPN MAC/IP route with the static bit, hence again you will h=
ave the behavior you want
The static-mac approach has an issue, when the local firewall goes down, th=
ere is no organic way to prefer/plumb the MAC_F published by remote vtep.

Thanks
Saumya.

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) [mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia=
.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 7:47 PM
To: Dikshit, Saumya >=
; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ie=
tf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and =
rfc

Hi Saumya,

To be clear, your query has nothing to do with the two documents you refer =
to. In fact I don't see any issue related to multihoming.
Given that in your example host-1 and FW-1 are directly connected to the sa=
me leaf, and host-2 and FW-2 are connected to the same leaf too, I can see =
your use-case resolved in two ways:

a) FW1 and FW2 can be attached to the same all-active ES, I assume local-bi=
as behavior as in RFC8365 (seems you are using VXLAN as data plane). Host-1=
 will send unicast and BUM to FW-1. Host-2 will send unicast and BUM to FW-=
2. In case of failure, the behavior will be as per your description. Note t=
hat a third leaf with a local host will do aliasing to both, but since it s=
eems you only have directly connected leaf nodes, you are fine.

b) instead of attaching FW-1 and FW-2 to the same ES, EVPN allows 'static' =
MACs that are advertised with the sticky bit set. You can configure MAC F a=
s static in the two leaf nodes. There is no mobility procedures for static =
MACs, hence forwarding comes down to the local selection on each node. In t=
he implementations that I know, the local static MAC will be preferred over=
 the EVPN MAC/IP route with the static bit, hence again you will have the b=
ehavior you want.. and again, only in your example with two directly connec=
ted leaf nodes.

My 2 cents.
Thx
Jorge


From: Dikshit, Saumya >
Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 4:51 AM
To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org >, draft-ietf-bes=
s-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org >
Cc: bess@ietf.org >
Subject: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery and rfc
Hello Authors of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8584/ and https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery

I have a query regarding the following use-case which I could not find supp=
orted with existing DF-election procedures.

Scenario:
All PE (Vtep1 and Vtep2 in below example) routers attached to same ES and b=
oth act as DF.

This is a typical case of distributed firewall (active/active) across fabri=
cs (sites),
Where in, the preferred firewall is the one local to the site, whereas, upo=
n failure,
packets need to be redirected (over WAN, via DCI/VPN) towards the remote si=
te firewall.
The firewall-device is connected to it's first-hop vtep over the same bridg=
e-domain and same ESI.
All in all, it's an emulated multi-homing scenario.

This is scenario of distributed firewall devices host same MAC credentials.

Simplistic example :
There are two sites, SITE-1 and SITE-2 in the below diagram.
Traffic (including BUM) generated by Host1 (in SITE-1) (for a bridge-domain)
 should run through site-local firewall instance (firewall_1) preferably.
Only in case of local-outage, the traffic should be send across over WAN to=
 the remote firewall (firewall_2).
Same should apply to traffic generated by Host2 (in SITE-2), wherein,
it should preferably run through the local firewall (firewall_2) and over a=
 failure should go over the WAN towards firewall_1.

Vtep1/2 learn the firewall MAC (MAC_F) as local learning and also from the =
remote Vtep2/1.
But since both the learnings are over the same ESI, it should not lead to M=
AC move.
Cometh the local firewall failure, Vteps (1 or 2) should start redirecting =
the traffic to remote SITE.

Any ARP request (BUM traffic) for firewall credentials landing at either Vt=
ep1 or Vtep2 should be flooded to network towards the local firewall.

    SITE-1                 |                         SITE-2
------------------------------------------------------
      Host1               |                        Host2
         |                     |                          |
     Vtep1  =3D=3D =3D=3DWAN=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D  Vtep2
       |                       |                           |
Firewall _1           |                   Firewall_2
  (MAC_F)                                  (MAC_F)

Please let me know if there is a way out (with out) using existing standard=
s.

Thanks
Saumya.

-----Original Message-----
From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf=
.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 8:31 PM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-02.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Fast Recovery for EVPN DF Election
        Authors         : Patrice Brissette
                          Ali Sajassi
                          Luc Andre Burdet
                          John Drake
                          Jorge Rabadan
        Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-02.txt
        Pages           : 11
        Date            : 2021-07-06

Abstract:
   Ethernet Virtual Private Network (EVPN) solution provides Designated
   Forwarder election procedures for multi-homing Ethernet Segments.
   These procedures have been enhanced further by applying Highest
   Random Weight (HRW) Algorithm for Designated Forwarded election in
   order to avoid unnecessary DF status changes upon a failure.  This
   draft improves these procedures by providing a fast Designated
   Forwarder (DF) election upon recovery of the failed link or node
   associated with the multi-homing Ethernet Segment.  The solution is
   independent of number of EVIs associated with that Ethernet Segment
   and it is performed via a simple signaling between the recovered PE
   and each PEs in the multi-homing group.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery=
-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-0=
2


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

--_000_SJ0PR84MB1992FB25FB7CE702912AF016942E9SJ0PR84MB1992NAMP_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hello Members,


I think this document =
should be part of the Bess WG as it attends to specific and unattended use-=
case.


 


Thanks


Saumya.


 






From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] =
On Behalf Of
Dikshit, Saumya

Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 10:34 AM

To: bess@ietf.org

Subject: [bess] draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum : All PEs as DF: D=
istributed firewall-gateways across Overlay fabrics






 


[changing the subject =
line]


 


Hello Bess Members, Ch=
airs,


 


We have covered a use-=
case which is not handled by any of the existing standard documents in bess=
.


The details of use-cas=
e are also discussed in the email chain below.


 


Kindly provide you inp=
uts or feedback on the proposed changes in the draft
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/  


 


Thanks


Saumya.


 



 


Hi Jorge and Bess memb=
er


 


Can you please go prov=
ide your inputs on the use-case and solution described in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/  


 


Thanks


Saumya.


 






From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Dikshit, Saumya

Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 4:44 PM

To: Joshi, Vinayak <vina=
yak.joshi@hpe.com>; Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>;
draft-iet=
f-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org;
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org

Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [bess] Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df=
-recovery and rfc






 


Hi Jorge and Members o=
f Bess WG,


 


Please let us know you=
r views on
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/.


We have described the =
use-case this draft intends to solve, leveraging the existing TLVs.


Please include this as=
 wg draft.


 


Thanks


Saumya.


 






From: Dikshit, Saumya 

Sent: Friday, September 3, 2021 5:53 PM

To: Joshi, Vinayak <vina=
yak.joshi@hpe.com>; Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>;
draft-iet=
f-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org;
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org

Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: RE: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recove=
ry and rfc






 


Hi Jorge and others in=
 Bess WG,


 


We have come out with =
a new draft to which proposes a DF-election-mode where in all the PEs inten=
d to play the DF-role.


Please go through the =
document and provide your comments:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/


 


Thanks


Saumya.


 


 



 


+1 for standard compli=
ance on the control plane to indicate [All Active + All DF].


However, I think local=
 bias is still needed to prevent some scenarios



 


E.g.:


1)  Host1 sends o=
ut ARP request for the Firewall.


2)  It reaches VT=
EP-1 over VxLAN from Vtep_Host1. Two options at Vtep_1



a) &nbs=
p;   
Proprietary Op=
tion:  VTEP 2 does not forward it over the VxLAN DCI tunnel to Vtep2. =
I.e. VTEP 1 has to match the ARP for Firewall.



b) &nbs=
p;   
 Vtep_1 s=
ends it over VTEP 2 on VxLAN DCI. VTEP 2’s local bias procedure preve=
nts it from getting into Firewall_2.  This makes it easier to implemen=
t on Vtep_2. This is because Vtep_1 need not selectively
 block BUM over the VxLAN tunnel (ARP from Host1 to resolve Host2’s I=
P has to be forwarded by Vtep_1 to Vtep_2).


 


Regards,


Vinayak


 


 


 






From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Dikshit, Saumya

Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 11:39 PM

To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>;
draft-iet=
f-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org;
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org

Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [bess] Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df=
-recovery and rfc






 


 


>>>>
If you still want to control the unicast an=
d BUM flows to one FW or the other depending on the leaf, you can still do =
it but that’s implementation specific
 since it relies on the route selection in vtep_host1 and vtep_host2.


+1 on the implementation part. It’s good to have few proprietary so=
lutions in place.



On another note, the best way forward could be the standards-support/enab=
ler for EVPN control-plane;


like an option to allow more than one PEs (in active-active) to process t=
he BUM (arp request) traffic.



 


Thanks


Saumya.


 






From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain Vie=
w) [mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.c=
om]


Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 9:40 PM

To: Dikshit, Saumya <sa=
umya.dikshit@hpe.com>;
draft-iet=
f-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org;
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org

Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: Re: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recove=
ry and rfc






 


I think you are saying that the FW can fail but it’s interface to t=
he leaf is oper-up. I don’t think the network can do anything to prev=
ent traffic to that interface then.


 


And of course, in your new diagram local bias does not play. As I said, l=
ocal bias works in the previous diagram.


Those new leaf nodes will do aliasing to the remote all-active ES.



 


If you still want to control the unicast and BUM flows to one FW or the o=
ther depending on the leaf, you can still do it but that’s implementa=
tion specific since it relies on the route
 selection in vtep_host1 and vtep_host2. 


 


Thx


Jorge


 


 





From: Dikshit, Saumya <saumya.dikshit@hpe.com>

Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 8:49 AM

To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>,
draft-iet=
f-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@=
ietf.org>,
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df=
-election-framework@ietf.org>

Cc: bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recove=
ry and rfc




>>> the static mac is configured associated to an interface and c=
onditionally active based on the oper-status of the
 interface


Ack on that and that’s pretty organic (tying it to the interface=
/AC state).


But it may not solve the case where other hosts (other than firewall) =
are behind the interface/AC (which is live and kicking).



Need to track firewall state and trigger an administrative delete of t=
he static-MAC.


 


 


>>> 


As I mentioned I should have added first_hop vtep/PE for Host1/2 as w=
ell,



to reflect that reachability to firewall from the host(s) is across t=
he Overlay (EVPN fabric).


 


I have redone the topology to show host1 and host2 behind first hop v=
teps “Vtep_host1” and “Vtep_host2” respectively.


In this updated topology local-bias will not come into play, as traff=
ic from host1/2 to firewall arrives over the evpn-fabric.=



.


 


    SITE-=
1            &n=
bsp;    |        &nb=
sp;            =
    SITE-2

------------------------------------------------------   &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;  


      Host1      &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;          Host2<=
/p>

    =
      \       &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p; /


Vtep_host1  &n=
bsp;            =
;             &=
nbsp; Vtep_host2         =
           


         |    &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;             =
            &nb=
sp;        |


    =
     |       [ EVPN-fabri=
c ]             =
;   |



         |    &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;         |

     Vtep1  =3D=3D =3D=3DWAN=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&nbs=
p; Vtep2           &=
nbsp; 

       /      &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;             =
             &n=
bsp;       \     &nb=
sp;            =
 


Firewall _1           &nb=
sp;            =
      Firewall_2     &nbs=
p;        

  (MAC_F)          &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;           (MAC_F)


 


 


 






From: Rabadan, Jor=
ge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) [m=
ailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com]


Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 9:04 PM

To: Dikshit, Saumya <sa=
umya.dikshit@hpe.com>;
draft-iet=
f-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org;
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org

Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: Re: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recove=
ry and rfc






 


About this:


 


>>>> the local static MAC =
disappears=



As I have observed in few implementations that=
 static MACs are admin-configured (other than control-plane published with =
sticky-bit).


So will need a admin intervention to clean the=
m up.


 


 


In the implementations I know, the static mac =
is configured associated to an interface and conditionally active based on =
the oper-status of the interface. So no
 admin intervention. IMHO it does not make much sense to keep a static mac =
installed if the associated attachment circuit is down.

 


Thanks.


Jorge


 





From: Dikshit, Saumya <saumya.dikshit@hpe.com>

Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 8:28 AM

To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>,
draft-iet=
f-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@=
ietf.org>,
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df=
-election-framework@ietf.org>

Cc: bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recove=
ry and rfc




Thanks Again Rabadan and apology for the confusion.



 


As I mentioned I should have added first_hop vtep/PE for Host1/2 as w=
ell,



to reflect that reachability to firewall from the host(s) is across t=
he Overlay (EVPN fabric).


 


I have redone the topology to show host1 and host2 behind first hop v=
teps “Vtep_host1” and “Vtep_host2” respectively.


In this updated topology local-bias will not come into play, as traff=
ic from host1/2 to firewall arrives over the evpn-fabric.=



.


 


    SITE-=
1            &n=
bsp;    |        &nb=
sp;            =
    SITE-2

------------------------------------------------------   &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;  


      Host1      &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;          Host2<=
/p>

    =
      \       &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p; /


Vtep_host1  &n=
bsp;            =
;             &=
nbsp; Vtep_host2         =
           


         |    &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;             =
            &nb=
sp;        |


    =
     |       [ EVPN-fabri=
c ]             =
;   |



         |    &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;         |

     Vtep1  =3D=3D =3D=3DWAN=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&nbs=
p; Vtep2           &=
nbsp; 

       /      &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;             =
             &n=
bsp;       \     &nb=
sp;            =
 


Firewall _1           &nb=
sp;            =
      Firewall_2     &nbs=
p;        

  (MAC_F)          &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;           (MAC_F)


 


>>>>=
 the local static MAC disappears


As I have observed in few implementations tha=
t static MACs are admin-configured (other than control-plane published with=
 sticky-bit).


So will need a admin intervention to clean th=
em up.


 


Thanks


Saumya.


 






From: Rabadan, Jo=
rge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) [=
mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com]


Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 8:35 PM

To: Dikshit, Saumya <sa=
umya.dikshit@hpe.com>;
draft-iet=
f-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org;
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org

Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: Re: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recove=
ry and rfc






 


For the first case, again, for the local host=
s, local bias makes sure the ARP requests go only to the local FW, i.e. hos=
t-1 ARP Requests goes to FW-1 only, irrespective
 of the DF state.


 


For the second case, I don’t understand=
. When the local FW goes down, the local static MAC disappears and the one =
from the EVPN route should be installed.


 


Thx


Jorge


 





From: Dikshit, Saumya <saumya.dikshit@hpe.com>

Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 7:56 AM

To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>,
draft-iet=
f-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@=
ietf.org>,
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df=
-election-framework@ietf.org>

Cc: bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recove=
ry and rfc




Thanks a lot for a promp=
t reply Jorge.



 


Well I missed drawing th=
e Host(s) behind the remote Vtep (PE) assuming that it will not make any di=
fference (except aliasing as you mentioned).


 


>>>>
FW1 and FW2 can be attached to =
the same all-active ES


How to handle the broadc=
ast packets like ARP request for the firewaill credentials ? ARP request (M=
AC_F) should to sent to the local vtep, which should act as a DF.


The hairpinning of ARP r=
equest to remote DF (over WAN), should be avoided. That’s the reason =
it would be good to have two DFs for the {ESI, Bridge-domain} in this scena=
rio.


 


>>>>=
 In the implementations that I
 know, the local static MAC will be preferred over the EVPN MAC/IP route wi=
th the static bit, hence again you will have the behavior you want


The static-mac approach =
has an issue, when the local firewall goes down, there is no organic way to=
 prefer/plumb the MAC_F published by remote vtep.


 


Thanks


Saumya.


 






From: Rabadan, Jo=
rge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) [=
mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com]


Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 7:47 PM

To: Dikshit, Saumya <sa=
umya.dikshit@hpe.com>;
draft-iet=
f-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org;
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org

Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: Re: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recove=
ry and rfc






 


Hi Saumya,


 


To be clear, your query has nothing to do wit=
h the two documents you refer to. In fact I don’t see any issue relat=
ed to multihoming.


Given that in your example host-1 and FW-1 ar=
e directly connected to the same leaf, and host-2 and FW-2 are connected to=
 the same leaf too, I can see your use-case
 resolved in two ways:


 


a) FW1 and FW2 can be attached to the same al=
l-active ES, I assume local-bias behavior as in RFC8365 (seems you are usin=
g VXLAN as data plane). Host-1 will send
 unicast and BUM to FW-1. Host-2 will send unicast and BUM to FW-2. In case=
 of failure, the behavior will be as per your description. Note that a thir=
d leaf with a local host will do aliasing to both, but since it seems you o=
nly have directly connected leaf
 nodes, you are fine.


 


b) instead of attaching FW-1 and FW-2 to the =
same ES, EVPN allows ‘static’ MACs that are advertised with the=
 sticky bit set. You can configure MAC F as static
 in the two leaf nodes. There is no mobility procedures for static MACs, he=
nce forwarding comes down to the local selection on each node. In the imple=
mentations that I know, the local static MAC will be preferred over the EVP=
N MAC/IP route with the static bit,
 hence again you will have the behavior you want.. and again, only in your =
example with two directly connected leaf nodes.


 


My 2 cents.


Thx


Jorge


 


 





From: Dikshit, Saumya <saumya.dikshit@hpe.com>

Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 4:51 AM

To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-d=
f-recovery@ietf.org>,
draf=
t-ietf-bess-evpn-df-election-framework@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-df=
-election-framework@ietf.org>

Cc: bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Query to authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery a=
nd rfc






Hello Authors of https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/rfc8584/ and https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-b=
ess-evpn-fast-df-recovery



I have a query regarding the following use-case which I could not find supp=
orted with existing DF-election procedures.



Scenario: 

All PE (Vtep1 and Vtep2 in below example) routers attached to same ES and b=
oth act as DF. 




This is a typical case of distributed firewall (active/active) across fabri=
cs (sites),

Where in, the preferred firewall is the one local to the site, whereas, upo=
n failure,


packets need to be redirected (over WAN, via DCI/VPN) towards the remote si=
te firewall.

The firewall-device is connected to it's first-hop vtep over the same bridg=
e-domain and same ESI.

All in all, it's an emulated multi-homing scenario.



This is scenario of distributed firewall devices host same MAC credentials.=
 



Simplistic example :

There are two sites, SITE-1 and SITE-2 in the below diagram. 

Traffic (including BUM) generated by Host1 (in SITE-1) (for a bridge-domain=
)

 should run through site-local firewall instance (firewall_1) preferab=
ly. 

Only in case of local-outage, the traffic should be send across over WAN to=
 the remote firewall (firewall_2).

Same should apply to traffic generated by Host2 (in SITE-2), wherein, 

it should preferably run through the local firewall (firewall_2) and over a=
 failure should go over the WAN towards firewall_1.



Vtep1/2 learn the firewall MAC (MAC_F) as local learning and also from the =
remote Vtep2/1.

But since both the learnings are over the same ESI, it should not lead to M=
AC move.

Cometh the local firewall failure, Vteps (1 or 2) should start redirecting =
the traffic to remote SITE.



Any ARP request (BUM traffic) for firewall credentials landing at either Vt=
ep1 or Vtep2 should be flooded to network towards the local firewall.



    SITE-1        &n=
bsp;        |    &nb=
sp;            =
        SITE-2

------------------------------------------------------   &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;  


      Host1      &nb=
sp;        |    &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;      Host2

         |    &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;    |         =
;            &n=
bsp;    |

     Vtep1  =3D=3D =3D=3DWAN=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&nbs=
p; Vtep2           &=
nbsp; 

       |      &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;    |         =
;            &n=
bsp;     |       &nb=
sp;            

Firewall _1           |&n=
bsp;            =
;      Firewall_2     &nb=
sp;        

  (MAC_F)          &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;           (MAC_F)



Please let me know if there is a way out (with out) using existing standard=
s.



Thanks

Saumya.



-----Original Message-----

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ie=
tf.org] On Behalf Of
internet-drafts@ietf.org

Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 8:31 PM

To: i-d-announce@ietf.org

Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-02.txt





A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.

This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.



        Title    &nb=
sp;      : Fast Recovery for EVPN DF Election

        Authors    &=
nbsp;    : Patrice Brissette

            &nb=
sp;            =
 Ali Sajassi

            &nb=
sp;            =
 Luc Andre Burdet

            &nb=
sp;            =
 John Drake

            &nb=
sp;            =
 Jorge Rabadan

        Filename    =
    : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-02.txt

        Pages    &nb=
sp;      : 11

        Date    &nbs=
p;       : 2021-07-06



Abstract:

   Ethernet Virtual Private Network (EVPN) solution provides Desi=
gnated

   Forwarder election procedures for multi-homing Ethernet Segmen=
ts.

   These procedures have been enhanced further by applying Highes=
t

   Random Weight (HRW) Algorithm for Designated Forwarded electio=
n in

   order to avoid unnecessary DF status changes upon a failure.&n=
bsp; This

   draft improves these procedures by providing a fast Designated=


   Forwarder (DF) election upon recovery of the failed link or no=
de

   associated with the multi-homing Ethernet Segment.  The s=
olution is

   independent of number of EVIs associated with that Ethernet Se=
gment

   and it is performed via a simple signaling between the recover=
ed PE

   and each PEs in the multi-homing group.







The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-reco=
very/




There is also an htmlized version available at:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
fast-df-recovery-02




A diff from the previous version is available at:

https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast=
-df-recovery-02






Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet=
-drafts/






_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/bess









--_000_SJ0PR84MB1992FB25FB7CE702912AF016942E9SJ0PR84MB1992NAMP_--


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--_000_64EE4A9859A447AE8B467C2FBC7F3F14ciscocom_--


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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp-ping-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : LSP-Ping Mechanisms for EVPN and PBB-EVPN
        Authors         : Parag Jain
                          Samer Salam
                          Ali Sajassi
                          Sami Boutros
                          Greg Mirsky
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp-ping-07.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2022-02-10

Abstract:
   LSP Ping is a widely deployed Operation, Administration, and
   Maintenance mechanism in MPLS networks.  This document describes
   mechanisms for detecting data-plane failures using LSP Ping in MPLS
   based EVPN and PBB-EVPN networks.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp-ping/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp-ping-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-lsp-ping-07


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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References: <081c01d8129a$0ded7900$29c86b00$@gmail.com>  
In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 16:10:54 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)" 
Cc: Anoop Ghanwani , BESS ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org" ,  "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000654aa505d7b06322"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
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I support publication.

Thanks

Gyan

On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 1:41 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) <
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:

> Thank you Anoop. We will fix those in the next version.
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> *From: *Anoop Ghanwani 
> *Date: *Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:19 AM
> *To: *slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
> *Cc: *BESS , draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org
> , bess-chairs@ietf.org <
> bess-chairs@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
>
> I support the publication of the draft as an RFC.
>
>
>
> Below are some minor editorial comments.
>
>
>
> Anoop
>
>
>
> ==
>
>
>
> Multiple sections
>
>
>
> Probably better to replace all uses of Ethernet Segment with ES rather
> than use them at random.
>
>
>
> Section 1
>
>
>
> Expand first use of "SID".
>
>
> will keeo following
> ->
> will keep following
>
>
>
> Section 2.2
>
>
> A value of 01
>    indicates the intend to use
> ->
> A value of 01
>    indicates the intent to use
>
>
> A value of 10 indicates the intend to
>    use
> ->
> A value of 10 indicates the intent to
>    use
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM  wrote:
>
> Hello Working Group,
>
>
>
> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon [1].
>
>
>
> This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.
>
>
>
> We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to
> this document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with
> IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>
> If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document please
> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any
> relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from
> all the Authors and Contributors.
>
>
>
> There is no IPR currently disclosed.
>
>
>
> If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please
> explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been
> disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>
>
>
> We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2].
>
>
>
>     Thank you,
>
>     Stephane & Matthew
>
>
>
>     [1]
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon/
>
>     [2]
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
-- 



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

--000000000000654aa505d7b06322
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



I support publication.

Thanks=C2=A0

Gyan

On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 1:41 AM Rabadan, Jorge=
 (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) <jorg=
e.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:











Thank you Anoop. We will fix those in the next version.
<=
/div>


Jorge


=C2=A0





From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>

Date: Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:19 AM

To: sli=
tkows.ietf@gmail.com <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Cc: BESS <bess=
@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org<=
/a> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.or=
g <bess-ch=
airs@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf=
-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon








I support the publication of the draft as an RFC.






=C2=A0






Below are some minor editorial comments.






=C2=A0






Anoop






=C2=A0






=3D=3D






=C2=A0




Multiple sections




=C2=A0






Probably better to replace all uses of Ethernet Segment with ES r=
ather than use them at random.






=C2=A0






Section 1




=C2=A0






Expand first use of "SID".






will keeo following

->

will keep following




=C2=A0






Section 2.2








A value of 01

=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the intend to use

->

A value of 01

=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the intent to use






A value of 10 indicates the intend to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0use

->

A value of 10 indicates the intent to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0use






=C2=A0






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:











Hello Working Group,



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 



This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-ev=
pn-mh-split-horizon [1].




=C2=A0



This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.



=C2=A0



We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th=
is document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF =
IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).<=
/u>



If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document please res=
pond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevan=
t undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all=
 the Authors and Contributors.



=C2=A0



There is no IPR currently disclosed.



=C2=A0



If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly=
 respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i=
n conformance with IETF rules.



=C2=A0



We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. <=
/u>



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thank you,



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Stephane & Matthew



=C2=A0



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0[1] 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon/=




=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [2] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw<=
u>



=C2=A0






_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess










_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess


-- 


--000000000000654aa505d7b06322--


From nobody Thu Feb 10 14:19:14 2022
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To: "The IESG" 
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org, bess-chairs@ietf.org, bess@ietf.org, matthew.bocci@nokia.com, matthew.bocci@nokia.com
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Subject: [bess] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ietf?= =?utf-8?q?-bess-srv6-services-10=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
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Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for the work put into this document. This protocol is important for
scalable and deployable SRv6 services. With revised -10, all my blocking
DISCUSS points are addressed, I am therefore clearing my DISCUSS ballot (the
points are kept below for archiving). As replied by email, the -10 also
addresses most of my previous COMMENTs.

Special thanks to Matthew Bocci for the shepherd's write-up including the
section about the WG consensus and document history.

Please also expect an INT directorate review before the IESG telechat (I may
update this ballot accordingly).

I hope that this helps to improve the document,

Regards,

-éric

# previous DISCUSS (for archiving)

As noted in https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/, a
DISCUSS ballot is a request to have a discussion on the following topics:

## Section 3.1

"IANA registry defined in section 9.2 of [RFC8986]" but there is no section 9.2
in RFC 8986. I guess it is section 10.2. Moreover, IANA registries are usually
referred to via their name/URL, e.g.,
https://www.iana.org/assignments/segment-routing/segment-routing.xhtml, and not
by a section of the RFC that created them.

## Section 3.2.1

Where is "locator node" defined ? "locator block" is defined in section 3.1 of
RFC 8986 but not the node (I can only guess that this is the "N" in the "B:N"
notation used in RFC 8986).

## Section 6

Section 9 of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16 indeed defines route types
7 and 8 but it uses non IPv4-only wording. So, s/IGMP join sync route/Multicast
Membership Report Synch Route/ + same for type 8.

# COMMENTS

## Section 1

More details on the encapsulation (plain IP in IPv6 ?) will be welcome in "The
   ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 header where the
   destination address is the SRv6 Service SID provided by the egress
   Provider Edge (PE). "

## Section 3.2.1

The transposition field appears to be about "labels", which are not qualified.
Should the reader assume that those are "MPLS labels" ? A reference to some
text would be welcome. Not being a SRv6 expert (but somehow knowledgeable on
the topic), all the text about transposition is completely opaque to me.

The section 4 appears to give some information, but there should at least be a
forward reference to it in section 3.2.1 or even better the section 4 should be
moved before section 3.2.1.

## Section 4

This section would benefit from examples & figures.

While the specification probably works well, mapping a 128-bit IPv6 SID into
what looks like a 20-bit MPLS label looks like a smart kludge (for compression
efficiency) but still...

## Section 5

"...optionally insert an SRH [RFC8754] when required..." looks like an oxymoron
to me, i.e., if it is required then it is no more optional. Same issue in other
places (notably section 6).

5th § "the ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 header", is it
"payload" of the ingress packet or the whole packet itself ?

## Section 10

The protocol defined in this document is a sibling of the EPVN and other
layer-3 VPN using BGP as a control plane. I would have expected to have a
mostly identical security section. The similarity is indeed indicated in the
2nd § but this 2nd § would benefit by also giving the RFC titles rather than a
dry list of RFCs.

The 3rd § appears a little self-contradicting to my reading. The first part
rightfully confirms that SRv6 domain should be closed and makes reference to
SRH and network-programming security sections, i.e., isolation/protection in
the data plane. Then, the last part of this § is "Therefore, precaution is
necessary to ensure that the BGP service information (including associated SRv6
SID) advertised via BGP sessions are limited to peers within this trusted SR
domain. " which seems to contradict the first part. IMHO, the words "is
necessary" is an overkill, something like "Precautions should be taken to
ensure..." would be more appropriate.

To elaborate on the previous comment:

- isn't it *exactly* the same security issues as for EPVN and other BGP-based
VPN ? So, already covered by the 2nd § ?

- even if there is yet-another BGP leak with SRv6 SID, then what are the
consequences ? SRv6 data plane (as explained in the first sentences of this 3rd
§) MUST be protected anyway and will protect the SRv6 domain completely, else
the operator has more critical issues.

In short, readers will benefit from a shorter and clearer 3rd paragraph.

Final suggestion for the security section: what happens when the length of all
sub-sub-TLVs exceeds the length of the sub-TLV ? And similar corner cases. This
is of course more an implementation issue but should it be mentioned here ?

I note that the security directorate review result is "ready".




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To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , The IESG 
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
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Subject: Re: [bess]  =?windows-1252?q?=C9ric_Vyncke=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?windows-1252?q?bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMME?= =?windows-1252?q?NT=29?=
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--_000_BYAPR11MB2725C6F2D8034657798F921ADF2F9BYAPR11MB2725namp_
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Hi Eric,
Thanks for comment.


  1.  For text which talks about how to decode BGP routes back , will it be=
 ok to have common section after BPG encoding (https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16#section-9) ? which talks a=
bout fact that receiving PE need to decode it back and consider it as IGMP =
membership request and process it ?
  2.  About number restarting =96 There was comment by Alvaro where he want=
ed these numbers to be restarting to differentiate sender and receiver proc=
essing
  3.  SMET, I would take care of it in terminology.

Mankamana

From: Eric Vyncke (evyncke) 
Date: Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:11 AM
To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) , The IESG 
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org , bess-chairs@ietf.org , bess@iet=
f.org , slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
Subject: Re: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy=
-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Hello Mankamana and other authors,

Is there a plan to solve my remaining blocking DISCUSS point ? I.e., how ca=
n a recipient EVPN speaker can translate back the BGP information into MLD/=
IGMP packets?

Section 4.1 contains " The information is again translated back to IGMP mes=
sage at the recipient EVPN speaker." But the translation is not specified. =
This should be required in a proposed standard document. I.e., multiple sec=
tions are about MLD/IGMP messages received by a PE, format of the BGP messa=
ges, but never how to generate MLD/IGMP from those routes. Even if trivial =
for the authors, some description, even short, is really required.

BTW, in section 4.1.1 of revision -16, I find the numbering of the rules re=
ally confusing as it restarts from 1. Strongly suggest adding a preamble be=
tween rule 4 and rule 1.

BTW2, "SMET" is used in the text before its expansion in section 9.1.1 (fir=
st use in section 4.1.1).

I still hope that the above email helps improving this document,

Regards

-=E9ric


From: Eric Vyncke 
Date: Thursday, 28 October 2021 at 13:49
To: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" , The IESG 
Cc: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bes=
s@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
Subject: Re: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy=
-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Hello Mankamana,

Thank you for your constructive reply, please see below for EV> as I am afr=
aid that your answers do not address completely my concerns.

Regards

-=E9ric

From: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" 
Date: Monday, 25 October 2021 at 20:26
To: Eric Vyncke , The IESG 
Cc: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bes=
s@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
Subject: Re: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy=
-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Hi Eric,
Thanks for comment. Please find inline comment for blocking disucss .

Mankamana

From: =C9ric Vyncke via Datatracker 
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 1:28 AM
To: The IESG 
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org , bess-chairs@ietf.org , bess@iet=
f.org , slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
Subject: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13:=
 (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
=C9ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for the work put into this document. I have to state that I am
neither a EVPN expert not a multicast one.

Please find below some blocking DISCUSS points (probably easy to address), =
some
non-blocking COMMENT points (but replies would be appreciated even if only =
for
my own education), and some nits.

Special thanks to St=E9phane Litkowski for his shepherd's write-up about th=
e WG
consensus.

I hope that this helps to improve the document,

Regards,

-=E9ric

=3D=3D DISCUSS =3D=3D

The text covers in details how to map MLD/IGMP into BGP routes but does not=
 say
a word on how to recreate the MLD/IGMP packets. Should there be any such
specification ?
Mankamana :  This draft covers what is EVPN related procedures. IGMP / MLD =
packets are generated by multicast host. And this document does not define =
any procedure about what needs to be done at host. Host is not even aware o=
f presense of EVPN
EV> AFAIK, MLD/IGMP packets are also generated by routers and not only by h=
osts, but this is a detail.
EV> More important in my eyes: when one MLD/IGMP proxy receives some inform=
ation via BGP, it also needs to forward the recreated MLD/IGMP locally to t=
he attached hosts in order to be transparent. And I strongly believe that a=
 short section on the document should describe the process. Hence keeping m=
y blocking DISCUSS on this point.

Are all multicast group address treated as the same ? I would have apprecia=
ted
some text about link-local multicast as well as global multicast groups
addresses.
Mankamana : Since this draft transport all Valid IGMP / MLD join over BGP. =
It does not differentiate between different group range. All verification a=
nd handeling would be still IGMP / MLD router responsibility, so I do not t=
hink we would need to mention any of this.
EV> thank you for the confirmation, I still believe though that this is wor=
th mentioning in the text in one sentence.
EV> I will 'degrade' this blocking DISCUSS into a non-blocking DISCUSS anyw=
ay.

-- Abstract --
While this point is pretty light for a blocking DISCUSS, let's fix it:
- the abstract should also mention MLD and not only IGMP
- what are 'the above services' ?

-- Section 1 --
In the same vein, is it about IGMP only ? Or does it include MLD as well ? =
It
is really unclear.
Mankamana : Added MLD in abstract. But later in terminology, it has been me=
ntioned that even though we have used term IGMP, its valid for MLD too. For=
 better redability, MLD has been not used in rest of document.
EV> Thank you for fixing the abstract (I will clear my DISCUSS on this poin=
t), but, honestly using "IGMP" rather than "MLD" in 2021... this smells lik=
e a museum to my taste.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A very generic comment (but no need to reply): how can an IETF draft still
prefers to use "IGMP" rather than "MLD" in the text in 2021 ? ...

-- Section 1 --
When reading this section, I really and genuinely wonder what is "distribut=
ed
anycast multicast router" ? AFAIK "any cast" and "multicast" addresses are
vastly different.
Anycast multicast is well known , and do not think there is need to mention=
 it more in document about it.
EV> rather than assuming that it is well-known, I strongly suggest to add a=
 reference to this term or add it in the terminology section. If well-know,=
 then let's copy and paste.

-- Section 3 --
Is there any reason why the terminology is not alphabetically sorted ?

Please also add 'BD'.

Usually a terminology section is not only about acronym expansions but also
about definitions.
Done
EV> Thanks

-- Section 4.1 --
What is the definition of a 'first hop PE'? What is the difference with a E=
VPN
PE ?
EVPN PE  is PE were EVPN is enabled. Not adding detail for some of obvious =
terminology.
EV> It was not really obvious to me that using "first hop PE" is the same a=
s "PE" which is the same as "EPVN PE". If so, why using different wordings =
rather than the simple "PE" (even if just to avoid confusing the reader- ?

-- Section 4.2 --
May be that I overlooked it, but what is a 'proxy querier' ?
IGMP spec defines need for Querier on LAN. EVPN provides mechanism to exten=
d layer-2 network across core.  And this draft defines mechanism to convert=
 these local IGMP / MLD join to BGP routes and send it across core. Each of=
 these location should have own Querier configured and refresh joins on beh=
alf of other sites.
EV> ok

What is the difference between "EVPN core" and "MPLS/IP core" ?
EVPN core is generic term, it could be SR / SRv6 / MPLS or IP underlay base=
d.
EV> then may I assume that section 4.2 and figures 1 and 2 are not applicab=
le to all EVPN ? Should this be clearly explained in the abstract/introduct=
ion that this I-D is mainly about MPLS/IP core and not for all EVPN ?

-- Section 5.1 --
What is "viz" ? (Sorry not being a native English speaker)


viz introduce examples or further details to illustrate a point

EV> Should then probably written as "viz." per wikipedia. I will let the RF=
C editor check whether this Latin expression is well-known.

-- Section 8 --
Is there a difference between (*, G) and (x, G) ?
(x,G) is generic term to denote both (S,G) and (*,G).
EV> suggest to add something in the terminology section

-- Section 9.1 --
Please formally specify "IE" as "include/exclude" (if not mistaken).
done
EV> thanks

I find the description of the bits for MLD confusing, it really appears as =
a
last-minute add-on to the text. Why not describing the MLDv1 in the same bu=
llet
as in IGMPv1 for the bit 7 ?
IGMP and MLD have historically version number mismatch. So we added it inde=
pendently to avoid confusion. IGMP has V1, V2, V3 and MLD has only V1 and V=
2. And for mapping
  IGMP V1
  IGMP V2 ---- MLD V2
 IGMP V3 =96 MLD V3
So I think keeping it independent would be better.
EV> up to you

Is "SHOULD" the right word for the sender of the reserved bits ? Especially=
 as
section 9.1.1. specifies a "MUST".
Changed

-- Sections 9.1, 9.2 --
The flags description appears to be different in the text while it seems to=
 me
that they have the same semantics.
9.2 adds little more text , may not no change needed.

=3D=3D NITS =3D=3D

Is it "ToR" or "TOR" ?
ToR
EV> then please update section 9.1.1

-- Section 4.1.2 --
Please use a consistent quoting in the document, e.g. in :
        IGMPv2 Leave Group (Leave) or IGMPv3 "Leave"
Removed extra leave for V2
EV> I probably expressed myself badly, but there are double quotes around "=
Leave" and none around "Leave Group"

--_000_BYAPR11MB2725C6F2D8034657798F921ADF2F9BYAPR11MB2725namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Eric,


Thanks for comment. 


 


    

  1. For text which talks about how to decode BGP routes back , will it be=
 ok to have common section after BPG encoding (http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16#se=
ction-9)
 ? which talks about fact that receiving PE need to decode it back and cons=
ider it as IGMP membership request and process it ?

  2. About number restarting =96 There was comment by Alva=
ro where he wanted these numbers to be restarting to differentiate sender a=
nd receiver processing

  3. SMET, I would take care of it in terminology.



 


Mankamana 


 




From:
Eric Vyncke (evynck=
e) <evyncke@cisco.com>

Date: Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:11 AM

To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <mankamis@cisco.com>, The IESG=
 <iesg@ietf.org>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess=
-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@iet=
f.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <=
;slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-ml=
d-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




Hello Mankamana and other authors,


 <=
/span>


Is ther=
e a plan to solve my remaining blocking DISCUSS point ? I.e., how can a rec=
ipient EVPN speaker can translate back the BGP information into MLD/IGMP pa=
ckets?


 <=
/span>


Section=
 4.1 contains "
The information is again trans=
lated back to IGMP message at the recipient EVPN speaker." But the tra=
nslation is not specified. This should be required in a proposed standard d=
ocument. I.e., multiple sections are about
 MLD/IGMP messages received by a PE, format of the BGP messages, but never =
how to generate MLD/IGMP from those routes. Even if trivial for the authors=
, some description, even short, is really required.


 <=
/span>


BTW, in=
 section 4.1.1 of revision -16, I find the numbering of the rules really co=
nfusing as it restarts from 1. Strongly suggest adding a preamble between r=
ule 4 and rule 1.


 <=
/span>


BTW2, &=
quot;SMET" is used in the text before its expansion in section 9.1.1 (=
first use in section 4.1.1).


 <=
/span>


I still=
 hope that the above email helps improving this document,=



 <=
/span>


Regards=



 <=
/span>


-=E9ric=



 


 




From=
: Eric Vyncke <e=
vyncke@cisco.com>

Date: Thursday, 28 October 2021 at 13:49

To: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" <mankamis@cisco.com&g=
t;, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>

Cc: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" <dra=
ft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org&q=
uot; <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.=
org>, "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>=
;

Subject: Re: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-ml=
d-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






 




Hello Mankamana,


 


Thank you for your constructive reply, please see be=
low for EV> as I am afraid that your answers do not address completely m=
y concerns.


 


Regards


 


-=E9ric


 




From=
: "Mankamana M=
ishra (mankamis)" <mankamis@cisco.com>

Date: Monday, 25 October 2021 at 20:26

To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.or=
g>

Cc: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" <dra=
ft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org&q=
uot; <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.=
org>, "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>=
;

Subject: Re: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-ml=
d-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






 




Hi Eric, 


Thanks for comment. Please find inline comment for b=
locking disucss .



 


Mankamana 


 




From:
=C9ric Vyncke via D=
atatracker <noreply@ietf.org>

Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 1:28 AM

To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess=
-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@iet=
f.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <=
;slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Subject: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pr=
oxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






=C9ric Vyncke has ent=
ered the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy=
/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



Thank you for the work put into this document. I have to state that I am
neither a EVPN expert not a multicast one.



Please find below some blocking DISCUSS points (probably easy to address), =
some

non-blocking COMMENT points (but replies would be appreciated even if only =
for

my own education), and some nits.



Special thanks to St=E9phane Litkowski for his shepherd's write-up about th=
e WG

consensus.



I hope that this helps to improve the document,



Regards,



-=E9ric



=3D=3D DISCUSS =3D=3D



The text covers in details how to map MLD/IGMP into BGP routes but does not=
 say

a word on how to recreate the MLD/IGMP packets. Should there be any such
specification ?


Mankamana :&nb=
sp; 
This draft covers what is EVPN related procedures. IGMP / MLD packets are g=
enerated by multicast host. And this document does not define any procedure=
 about what needs to be done at host. Host is not even aware of presense of=
 EVPN



EV> AFAIK, MLD/IGM=
P packets are also generated by routers and not only by hosts, but this is =
a detail.


EV> More important=
 in my eyes: when one MLD/IGMP proxy receives some information via BGP, it =
also needs to forward the recreated MLD/IGMP locally to the attached hosts =
in order to be transparent. And I strongly
 believe that a short section on the document should describe the process. =
Hence keeping my blocking DISCUSS on this point.



Are all multicast group address treated as the same ? I would have apprecia=
ted

some text about link-local multicast as well as global multicast groups

addresses.


Mankamana : Since this draft trans=
port all Valid IGMP / MLD join over BGP. It does not differentiate between =
different group range. All verification
 and handeling would be still IGMP / MLD router responsibility, so I do not=
 think we would need to mention any of this.



EV> thank you for =
the confirmation, I still believe though that this is worth mentioning in t=
he text in one sentence.



EV> I will 'degrad=
e' this blocking DISCUSS into a non-blocking DISCUSS anyway.



-- Abstract --

While this point is pretty light for a blocking DISCUSS, let's fix it:

- the abstract should also mention MLD and not only IGMP

- what are 'the above services' ?



-- Section 1 --

In the same vein, is it about IGMP only ? Or does it include MLD as well ? =
It

is really unclear.


Mankamana : 
Added MLD in abstract. But later in terminology, it has been mentioned that=
 even though we have used term IGMP, its valid for MLD too. For better reda=
bility, MLD has been not used in rest of document.



EV> Thank you for =
fixing the abstract (I will clear my DISCUSS on this point), but, honestly =
using "IGMP" rather than "MLD" in 2021... this smells l=
ike a museum to my taste.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



A very generic comment (but no need to reply): how can an IETF draft still<=
br>
prefers to use "IGMP" rather than "MLD" in the text in =
2021 ? ...



-- Section 1 --

When reading this section, I really and genuinely wonder what is "dist=
ributed

anycast multicast router" ? AFAIK "any cast" and "multi=
cast" addresses are

vastly different.


Anycast multicast is well known , and do =
not think there is need to mention it more in document about it.



EV> rather than as=
suming that it is well-known, I strongly suggest to add a reference to this=
 term or add it in the terminology section. If well-know, then let's copy a=
nd paste.




-- Section 3 --

Is there any reason why the terminology is not alphabetically sorted ?



Please also add 'BD'.



Usually a terminology section is not only about acronym expansions but also=


about definitions.


Done



EV> Thanks



-- Section 4.1 --

What is the definition of a 'first hop PE'? What is the difference with a E=
VPN

PE ?


EVPN PE  is PE were EVPN is enabled.=
 Not adding detail for some of obvious terminology.



EV> It was not rea=
lly obvious to me that using "first hop PE" is the same as "=
PE" which is the same as "EPVN PE". If so, why using differe=
nt wordings rather than the simple "PE" (even if just to avoid co=
nfusing
 the reader- ?




-- Section 4.2 --

May be that I overlooked it, but what is a 'proxy querier' ?


IGMP spec defines need for Querier on LAN=
. EVPN provides mechanism to extend layer-2 network across core.  And =
this draft defines mechanism to convert these
 local IGMP / MLD join to BGP routes and send it across core. Each of these=
 location should have own Querier configured and refresh joins on behalf of=
 other sites.



EV> ok



What is the difference between "EVPN core" and "MPLS/IP core=
" ?


EVPN core is generic term, it could be SR=
 / SRv6 / MPLS or IP underlay based.



EV> then may I assume that section 4.2 and figure=
s 1 and 2 are not applicable to all EVPN ? Should this be clearly explained=
 in the abstract/introduction that this I-D is mainly about MPLS/IP core an=
d not for all EVPN ?



-- Section 5.1 --

What is "viz" ? (Sorry not being a native English speaker)


 




viz introduce exampl=
es or further details to illustrate a point


 


EV> Should then pr=
obably written as "viz." per wikipedia. I will let the RFC editor=
 check whether this Latin expression is well-known.




-- Section 8 --

Is there a difference between (*, G) and (x, G) ?

(x,G) is generic ter=
m to denote both (S,G) and (*,G).



EV> suggest to add=
 something in the terminology section




-- Section 9.1 --

Please formally specify "IE" as "include/exclude" (if n=
ot mistaken).

done


EV> thanks




I find the description of the bits for MLD confusing, it really appears as =
a

last-minute add-on to the text. Why not describing the MLDv1 in the same bu=
llet

as in IGMPv1 for the bit 7 ?


IGMP and MLD have historically version nu=
mber mismatch. So we added it independently to avoid confusion. IGMP has V1=
, V2, V3 and MLD has only V1 and V2. And
 for mapping 


  IGMP V1



  IGMP V2 ---- MLD V2



 IGMP V3 =96 MLD V3



So I think keeping it independent would b=
e better.



EV> up to you=





Is "SHOULD" the right word for the sender of the reserved bits ? =
Especially as

section 9.1.1. specifies a "MUST".


Changed





-- Sections 9.1, 9.2 --

The flags description appears to be different in the text while it seems to=
 me

that they have the same semantics.


9.2 adds little more text , may not no ch=
ange needed.





=3D=3D NITS =3D=3D



Is it "ToR" or "TOR" ?


ToR


EV> then please up=
date section 9.1.1




-- Section 4.1.2 --

Please use a consistent quoting in the document, e.g. in :

        IGMPv2 Leave Group (Leave) or IG=
MPv3 "Leave"


Removed extra leave for V2



EV> I probably exp=
ressed myself badly, but there are double quotes around "Leave" a=
nd none around "Leave Group"








--_000_BYAPR11MB2725C6F2D8034657798F921ADF2F9BYAPR11MB2725namp_--


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From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:49:18 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" 
Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess]  =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-bess?= =?utf-8?q?-srv6-services-09=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Eric,

Thanks again for your review and for confirming that the changes look good
to you.

Thanks,
Ketan


On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 8:26 PM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) 
wrote:

> Hello Ketan
>
>
>
> Thank you for your prompt reply and for uploading a revised I-D. I am als=
o
> sorry for my belated reply :-(
>
>
>
> The revised I-D addresses all my DISCUSS points, i.e., I am clearing my
> ballot into a NO OBJECTION in a couple of hours (I have a call now).
>
>
>
> About the non-blocking COMMENT, I still find the examples of section 4
> really unclear but let's hope that readers, who are more fluent than me
> about BGP, will find them useful.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Ketan Talaulikar 
> *Date: *Tuesday, 8 February 2022 at 18:06
> *To: *Eric Vyncke 
> *Cc: *The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" =
<
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <
> bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" , "Bocci, Matthew
> (Nokia - GB)" 
> *Subject: *Re: =C3=89ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-service=
s-09:
> (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
> Hi Eric,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your review and comments/feedback. Please check inline below
> for responses.
>
>
>
> We've also just posted an update to address your comments:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 3:16 AM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> =C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-09: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thank you for the work put into this document. This protocol is important
> for
> scalable and deployable SRv6 services.
>
> Please find below some blocking DISCUSS points (easy to address), some
> non-blocking COMMENT points (but replies would be appreciated even if onl=
y
> for
> my own education).
>
> Special thanks to Matthew Bocci for the shepherd's write-up including the
> section about the WG consensus and document history.
>
> Please also expect an INT directorate review before the IESG telechat (I
> may
> update this ballot accordingly).
>
> I hope that this helps to improve the document,
>
> Regards,
>
> -=C3=A9ric
>
> # DISCUSS
>
> As noted in https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/, a
> DISCUSS ballot is a request to have a discussion on the following topics:
>
> ## Section 3.1
>
> "IANA registry defined in section 9.2 of [RFC8986]" but there is no
> section 9.2
> in RFC 8986. I guess it is section 10.2. Moreover, IANA registries are
> usually
> referred to via their name/URL, e.g.,
> https://www.iana.org/assignments/segment-routing/segment-routing.xhtml,
> and not
> by a section of the RFC that created them.
>
>
>
> KT> Ack. It should have been Section 10.2. We have updated the text as
> below:
>
>
>
> Encodes SRv6 Endpoint behavior codepoint value that is associated with
> SRv6 SID. The codepoints used are from the SRv6 Endpoint Behavior registr=
y
> under the IANA Segment Routing Parameters registry that was introduced by
> [RFC8986].
>
>
>
>
> ## Section 3.2.1
>
> Where is "locator node" defined ? "locator block" is defined in section
> 3.1 of
> RFC 8986 but not the node (I can only guess that this is the "N" in the
> "B:N"
> notation used in RFC 8986).
>
>
>
> KT> Your understanding is correct. We have added the text below
>
>
>
> The terms Locator Block and Locator Node correspond to the B and N parts
> respectively of the SRv6 Locator that are defined in section 3.1 of
> [RFC8986].
>
>
>
>
> ## Section 6
>
> Section 9 of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16 indeed defines route
> types
> 7 and 8 but it uses non IPv4-only wording. So, s/IGMP join sync
> route/Multicast
> Membership Report Synch Route/ + same for type 8.
>
>
>
> KT> Ack. We have fixed to use route type names as per the latest version
> of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> # COMMENTS
>
> ## Section 1
>
> More details on the encapsulation (plain IP in IPv6 ?) will be welcome in
> "The
>    ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 header where the
>    destination address is the SRv6 Service SID provided by the egress
>    Provider Edge (PE). "
>
>
>
> KT> The inner packet being the service traffic, will vary (IPv4, IPv6, or
> Ethernet) and hence is not described here. We have added text in sections=
 5
> and 6 to refer to the H.Encaps and H.Encaps.L2 behaviors introduced in
> RFC8986 to explain the encapsulations.
>
>
>
>
> ## Section 3.2.1
>
> The transposition field appears to be about "labels", which are not
> qualified.
> Should the reader assume that those are "MPLS labels" ? A reference to so=
me
> text would be welcome. Not being a SRv6 expert (but somehow knowledgeable
> on
> the topic), all the text about transposition is completely opaque to me.
>
> The section 4 appears to give some information, but there should at least
> be a
> forward reference to it in section 3.2.1 or even better the section 4
> should be
> moved before section 3.2.1.
>
>
>
> KT> We have qualified the word "label" as "MPLS label" in section 3.2.1.
> Changing the order of sections may affect readability - we now introduce
> the TLVs first and then explain how they are used for encoding.
>
>
>
>
> ## Section 4
>
> This section would benefit from examples & figures.
>
> While the specification probably works well, mapping a 128-bit IPv6 SID
> into
> what looks like a 20-bit MPLS label looks like a smart kludge (for
> compression
> efficiency) but still...
>
>
>
> KT> The last two paragraphs of this section do provide examples; they do
> assume a good understanding of the concerned BGP features though.
>
>
>
>
> ## Section 5
>
> "...optionally insert an SRH [RFC8754] when required..." looks like an
> oxymoron
> to me, i.e., if it is required then it is no more optional. Same issue in
> other
> places (notably section 6).
>
>
>
> KT> We have removed the "optionally" from it.
>
>
>
>
> 5th =C2=A7 "the ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 head=
er",
> is it
> "payload" of the ingress packet or the whole packet itself ?
>
>
>
> KT> The payload is the inner IPv4/IPv6/Ethernet packet. We have clarified
> this.
>
>
>
>
> ## Section 10
>
> The protocol defined in this document is a sibling of the EPVN and other
> layer-3 VPN using BGP as a control plane. I would have expected to have a
> mostly identical security section. The similarity is indeed indicated in
> the
> 2nd =C2=A7 but this 2nd =C2=A7 would benefit by also giving the RFC title=
s rather
> than a
> dry list of RFCs.
>
>
>
> KT> We have provided abbreviated RFC titles.
>
>
>
>
> The 3rd =C2=A7 appears a little self-contradicting to my reading. The fir=
st part
> rightfully confirms that SRv6 domain should be closed and makes reference
> to
> SRH and network-programming security sections, i.e., isolation/protection
> in
> the data plane. Then, the last part of this =C2=A7 is "Therefore, precaut=
ion is
> necessary to ensure that the BGP service information (including associate=
d
> SRv6
> SID) advertised via BGP sessions are limited to peers within this trusted
> SR
> domain. " which seems to contradict the first part. IMHO, the words "is
> necessary" is an overkill, something like "Precautions should be taken to
> ensure..." would be more appropriate.
>
>
>
> KT> Agree. Please see the further responses as well.
>
>
>
>
> To elaborate on the previous comment:
>
> - isn't it *exactly* the same security issues as for EPVN and other
> BGP-based
> VPN ? So, already covered by the 2nd =C2=A7 ?
>
>
>
> KT> Yes
>
>
>
>
> - even if there is yet-another BGP leak with SRv6 SID, then what are the
> consequences ? SRv6 data plane (as explained in the first sentences of
> this 3rd
> =C2=A7) MUST be protected anyway and will protect the SRv6 domain complet=
ely,
> else
> the operator has more critical issues.
>
>
>
> KT> Yes, this is correct.
>
>
>
>
> In short, readers will benefit from a shorter and clearer 3rd paragraph.
>
>
>
> KT> We have updated the text for clarity.
>
>
>
>
> Final suggestion for the security section: what happens when the length o=
f
> all
> sub-sub-TLVs exceeds the length of the sub-TLV ? And similar corner cases=
.
> This
> is of course more an implementation issue but should it be mentioned here=
 ?
>
>
>
> KT> This is covered in section 8 and the reference to RFC7606 explains ho=
w
> these errors are to be handled.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
>
> I note that the security directorate review result is "ready".
>
>
>

--000000000000b9fcdf05d7b80c33
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Eric,

Thanks again for your review a=
nd for confirming that the changes look good to you.

Thanks,
Ketan


On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 8:26=
 PM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@=
cisco.com> wrote:











Hello Ketan

=C2=A0


Thank you for your prompt reply an=
d for uploading a revised I-D. I am also sorry for my belated reply :-(<=
/u>


=C2=A0


The revised I-D addresses all my D=
ISCUSS points, i.e., I am clearing my ballot into a NO OBJECTION in a coupl=
e of hours (I have a call now).


=C2=A0


About the non-blocking COMMENT, I =
still find the examples of section 4 really unclear but let's hope that=
 readers, who are more fluent than me about BGP, will find them useful.<=
/u>


=C2=A0


Best regards<=
/p>

=C2=A0


-=C3=A9ric

=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: =
Ketan Talaulikar <=
ketant.ietf@gmai=
l.com>

Date: Tuesday, 8 February 2022 at 18:06

To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>

Cc: The IESG <=
iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org&qu=
ot; <draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org"=
; <bess-chairs=
@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nok=
ia.com>

Subject: Re: =C3=89ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-=
services-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






=C2=A0








Hi Eric,




=C2=A0






Thanks for your review and comments/feedback. Please=
 check inline below for responses.






=C2=A0






We've also just posted an update to address your=
 comments:







=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 3:16 AM =C3=89ric Vyncke via =
Datatracker <norep=
ly@ietf.org> wrote:






=C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot po=
sition for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-09: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-se=
rvices/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



Thank you for the work put into this document. This protocol is important f=
or

scalable and deployable SRv6 services.



Please find below some blocking DISCUSS points (easy to address), some

non-blocking COMMENT points (but replies would be appreciated even if only =
for

my own education).



Special thanks to Matthew Bocci for the shepherd's write-up including t=
he

section about the WG consensus and document history.



Please also expect an INT directorate review before the IESG telechat (I ma=
y

update this ballot accordingly).



I hope that this helps to improve the document,



Regards,



-=C3=A9ric



# DISCUSS



As noted in 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/, a

DISCUSS ballot is a request to have a discussion on the following topics:


## Section 3.1



"IANA registry defined in section 9.2 of [RFC8986]" but there is =
no section 9.2

in RFC 8986. I guess it is section 10.2. Moreover, IANA registries are usua=
lly

referred to via their name/URL, e.g.,

https://www.iana.org/assignments/segment-routing/=
segment-routing.xhtml, and not

by a section of the RFC that created them.






=C2=A0






KT> Ack. It should have been Section 10.2. We hav=
e updated the text as below:






=C2=A0






Encodes SRv6 Endpoint behavior codepoint value that =
is associated with SRv6 SID. The codepoints used are from the SRv6 Endpoint=
 Behavior registry under the IANA Segment Routing Parameters registry that =
was introduced by [RFC8986].






=C2=A0








## Section 3.2.1



Where is "locator node" defined ? "locator block" is de=
fined in section 3.1 of

RFC 8986 but not the node (I can only guess that this is the "N" =
in the "B:N"

notation used in RFC 8986).






=C2=A0






KT> Your understanding is correct. We have added =
the text below=C2=A0






=C2=A0






The terms Locator Block and Locator Node correspond =
to the B and N parts respectively of the SRv6 Locator that are defined in s=
ection 3.1 of [RFC8986].






=C2=A0








## Section 6



Section 9 of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16 indeed defines route ty=
pes

7 and 8 but it uses non IPv4-only wording. So, s/IGMP join sync route/Multi=
cast

Membership Report Synch Route/ + same for type 8.






=C2=A0






KT> Ack. We have fixed to use route type names as=
 per the latest version of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy.






=C2=A0










----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



# COMMENTS



## Section 1



More details on the encapsulation (plain IP in IPv6 ?) will be welcome in &=
quot;The

=C2=A0 =C2=A0ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 header wh=
ere the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0destination address is the SRv6 Service SID provided by the eg=
ress

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Provider Edge (PE). "






=C2=A0






KT> The inner packet being the service traffic, w=
ill vary (IPv4, IPv6, or Ethernet) and hence is not described here. We have=
 added text in sections 5 and 6 to refer to the H.Encaps and H.Encaps.L2 be=
haviors introduced in RFC8986 to explain
 the encapsulations.






=C2=A0








## Section 3.2.1



The transposition field appears to be about "labels", which are n=
ot qualified.

Should the reader assume that those are "MPLS labels" ? A referen=
ce to some

text would be welcome. Not being a SRv6 expert (but somehow knowledgeable o=
n

the topic), all the text about transposition is completely opaque to me.


The section 4 appears to give some information, but there should at least b=
e a

forward reference to it in section 3.2.1 or even better the section 4 shoul=
d be

moved before section 3.2.1.






=C2=A0






KT> We have qualified the word "label" =
as "MPLS label" in section 3.2.1. Changing the order of sections =
may affect readability - we now introduce the TLVs first and then explain h=
ow they are used for encoding.






=C2=A0








## Section 4



This section would benefit from examples & figures.



While the specification probably works well, mapping a 128-bit IPv6 SID int=
o

what looks like a 20-bit MPLS label looks like a smart kludge (for compress=
ion

efficiency) but still...






=C2=A0






KT> The last two paragraphs of this section do pr=
ovide examples; they do assume a good understanding of the concerned BGP fe=
atures though.






=C2=A0








## Section 5



"...optionally insert an SRH [RFC8754] when required..." looks li=
ke an oxymoron

to me, i.e., if it is required then it is no more optional. Same issue in o=
ther

places (notably section 6).






=C2=A0






KT> We have removed the "optionally" fr=
om it.






=C2=A0








5th =C2=A7 "the ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 h=
eader", is it

"payload" of the ingress packet or the whole packet itself ?






=C2=A0






KT> The payload is the inner IPv4/IPv6/Ethernet p=
acket. We have clarified this.






=C2=A0








## Section 10



The protocol defined in this document is a sibling of the EPVN and other
layer-3 VPN using BGP as a control plane. I would have expected to have a
mostly identical security section. The similarity is indeed indicated in th=
e

2nd =C2=A7 but this 2nd =C2=A7 would benefit by also giving the RFC titles =
rather than a

dry list of RFCs.






=C2=A0






KT> We have provided abbreviated RFC titles.






=C2=A0








The 3rd =C2=A7 appears a little self-contradicting to my reading. The first=
 part

rightfully confirms that SRv6 domain should be closed and makes reference t=
o

SRH and network-programming security sections, i.e., isolation/protection i=
n

the data plane. Then, the last part of this =C2=A7 is "Therefore, prec=
aution is

necessary to ensure that the BGP service information (including associated =
SRv6

SID) advertised via BGP sessions are limited to peers within this trusted S=
R

domain. " which seems to contradict the first part. IMHO, the words &q=
uot;is

necessary" is an overkill, something like "Precautions should be =
taken to

ensure..." would be more appropriate.






=C2=A0






KT> Agree. Please see the further responses as we=
ll.






=C2=A0








To elaborate on the previous comment:



- isn't it *exactly* the same security issues as for EPVN and other BGP=
-based

VPN ? So, already covered by the 2nd =C2=A7 ?






=C2=A0






KT> Yes






=C2=A0








- even if there is yet-another BGP leak with SRv6 SID, then what are the
consequences ? SRv6 data plane (as explained in the first sentences of this=
 3rd

=C2=A7) MUST be protected anyway and will protect the SRv6 domain completel=
y, else

the operator has more critical issues.






=C2=A0






KT> Yes, this is correct.






=C2=A0








In short, readers will benefit from a shorter and clearer 3rd paragraph.=







=C2=A0






KT> We have updated the text for clarity.<=
u>






=C2=A0








Final suggestion for the security section: what happens when the length of =
all

sub-sub-TLVs exceeds the length of the sub-TLV ? And similar corner cases. =
This

is of course more an implementation issue but should it be mentioned here ?=







=C2=A0






KT> This is covered in section 8 and the referenc=
e to RFC7606 explains how these errors are to be handled.






=C2=A0






Thanks,






Ketan






=C2=A0








I note that the security directorate review result is "ready".




















--000000000000b9fcdf05d7b80c33--


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From: Lizhenbin 
To: slitkows.ietf , bess , draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon 
CC: bess-chairs 
Thread-Topic: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:12:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
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From: "UTTARO, JAMES" 
To: Lizhenbin , "slitkows.ietf" , bess , draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon 
CC: bess-chairs 
Thread-Topic: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:19:46 +0000
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From: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" 
To: John E Drake , Benjamin Kaduk 
CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 16:01:51 +0000
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References: <163477731824.13216.11701195886404718166@ietfa.amsl.com>  <20211022020803.GT88762@kduck.mit.edu>  <20220205010845.GZ11486@mit.edu> 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Ben,
Making the changes as you suggested. Attached diff which I would be pushing=
 today.

One question

> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, but we actually=
 have
> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support" flags.

Does IGMP or MLD Proxy Support not mean that either of them can be set / un=
set. Any thing specific you want to be added here ?

Mankamana

From: John E Drake 
Date: Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:17 AM
To: Benjamin Kaduk 
Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org =
, bess-chairs@ietf.org , bess@ietf.org , slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-prox=
y-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Ben,

Comments inline below.

Yours Irrespectively,

John


Juniper Business Use Only

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Kaduk 
> Sent: Friday, February 4, 2022 8:09 PM
> To: John E Drake 
> Cc: The IESG ; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.or=
g;
> bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pr=
oxy-
> 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> My apologies for taking a few weeks to reply; I was sick when this came i=
n and a
> bunch of stuff piled up, which has taken some time to get back to.
> I can only take a small amount of solace by noting that at least this is =
not the
> last DISCUSS blocking the document from approval.
>
> Inline...
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 03:28:11PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Benjamin Kaduk 
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 10:08 PM
> > > To: John E Drake 
> > > Cc: The IESG ;
> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> > > Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on
> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-
> > > 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > >
> > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > Thanks for helping clarify.  Also inline.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 06:35:43PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:
> > > > Ben,
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline.
> > > >
> > > > Yours Irrespectively,
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Juniper Business Use Only
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker 
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 8:49 PM
> > > > > To: The IESG 
> > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> > > > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> > > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on
> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-
> > > 13:
> > > > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > > > >
> > > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: Discuss
> > > > >
> > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
> > > > > to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel
> > > > > free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please refer to
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-i<=
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/blog/handling-i>
> > > > > esg-
> > > > > ballot-
> > > > > positions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSRrxQJ1U$
> > > > > for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT
> > > positions.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found her=
e:
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra<=
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra>
> > > > > ft-i
> > > > > etf-bess-
> > > > > evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSbOB2k3E$
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > (1) Apparently each PE is supposed to store version flags for
> > > > > each other PE in the EVI (I guess on a per-route basis?), but
> > > > > this is mentioned just once, in passing, in step 2 of the Leave
> > > > > Group procedures in
> > > =A74.1.2.
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  The first hop PE keeps track of which IGMP or MLD versions
> > > > are active on
> > > the ESes to which it is attached and announces this via the BGP SMET =
route.
> > >
> > > Yes.  Should this statement (or something like it) be in the document=
 itself?
> > > (Where?)
> >
> > [JD] Would you please review sections 4 and 5 of the -16
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_GYAo7RM$ ,
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i=
etf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-5__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_8b_wkkE$ ) and see if they are is
> clear enough?
>
> You ask if they are "clear enough?"  The changes to clarify which steps a=
re done
> by which PEs are quite helpful, and thank you for that.  But they are not=
 really
> addressing the issue that was bothering me.  Nevertheless, in light of th=
is discuss
> point being raised in order to have a conversation, I guess they are clea=
r
> *enough*, but just barely, and there's plenty of room to make them more c=
lear.
>
> In short, what bothers me here is that we say something like "compare ...
> with its per-PE stored version flags", but we never concretely say "store=
 some
> per-PE version flags" anywhere.  Now, this is BGP, so of course you're st=
oring
> what you got and from whom, but writing it in the way it's currently stat=
ed
> makes the reader work pretty hard to figure out what's going on.  If we s=
aid
> something like (with the caveat that I am surely using the wrong terminol=
ogy)
> "compare ... with the version flags from the corresponding saved EVPN SME=
T
> route in the BGP session with this PE", that would be very clear about wh=
at was
> saved and why.
>
> We could also go further and talk about the information model concretely,=
 a la:
>
> % The goal of IGMP and MLD proxying is to make the EVPN behave seamlessly
> for % the tenant systems with respect to multicast operations, while usin=
g a
> more % efficient delivery system for signaling and delivery across the VP=
N.
> % Accordingly, group state must be tracked synchronously among the PEs %
> serving the VPN, with join and leave events propagated to the peer PEs, a=
nd %
> each PE tracking the state of each of its peer PEs with respect whether %=
 there
> are locally attached group members (and in some cases, senders), what %
> version(s) of IGMP/MLD are in use for those locally attached group member=
s, %
> etc.  In order to perform this translation, each PE acts as an IGMP route=
r % for
> the locally attached domain, and maintains the requisite state on % local=
ly
> attached nodes, sends periodic membership queries, etc.  The role % of EV=
PN
> SMET route propagation is to ensure that each PE's local state is % propa=
gated
> to the other PEs so that they share a consistent view of the % overall IG=
MP
> Membership Request and Leave Group state.  It is important to % note that=
 the
> need to keep such local state can be triggered by either % local IGMP tra=
ffic or
> BGP EVPN signaling.  In most cases a local IGMP event % will need to be s=
ignaled
> over EVPN, though state initiated by received EVPN % traffic will not alw=
ays
> need to be relayed to the locally attached domain.

[JD]  We can add this text to section 4.
>
> > >
> > > > > Similarly, =A76.1 defines, somewhat in passing, some "local IGMP
> > > > > Membership Request (x,G) state" that must be maintained in some c=
ases.
> > > > > Let's discuss whether it's appropriate/useful to have a general
> > > > > introductory section that covers what new state PEs are expected
> > > > > to retain as part of supporting IGMP/MLD proxying.  Maybe the
> > > > > answer is "no", but I would like to have the conversation.
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  Section 6 generalizes the notion of a first hop PE to be the
> > > > set of multi-
> > > homed PEs attached to a given ES.  Section 6
> > > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d
> > > raft-ietf-
> > > bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > gk!WAMtLTp8pHMhjeyfDY13FOVPAqTuQaEqcCu8hQOf-
> > > GMscsBgaRFDzERgy6ZEfS8$ ) explains why the multi-homed PEs need to
> > > synchronize state and section 6.1 explains what is that state:
> > >
> > > Rereading it, it does explain the need for state synchronization;
> > > thanks for pointing that out.  However, it does not appear to use or
> > > introduce the specific term that the subsequent subsections are
> > > using to refer to that state.  It seems like it could be useful to
> > > have a defined term for this state, to help readers make the
> > > connection between the need to track the state and where that state i=
s
> referenced in the subsequent procedures.
> > >
> > > >  If the PE doesn't already have local IGMP Membership Request
> > > > (x,G) state for
> > > that BD on that ES, it MUST instantiate local IGMP Membership
> > > Request (x,G) state and MUST advertise a BGP IGMP Join Synch route
> > > for that (ES,BD).  Local IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state refers
> > > to IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state that is created as a result
> > > of processing an IGMP Membership Report for (x,G).
> > > >
> > > > i.e., IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state is the union of the
> > > > local IGMP Join
> > > (x,G) state and the installed IGMP Join Synch route.
> > >
> > > This would be a great start to a definition for such a defined term
> > > that I propose above.
> >
> > [JD]  Would you please review section 6 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_dTYpjPA$ ) and see if it is clear
> enough?
>
> Even if you don't want to use the "concrete information model" approach I
> outline above, I think this text would be much clearer with the following=
 change
> in =A76:
>
> OLD:
>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coordinate IGMP
>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, where x may be either
>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES. [...]
>
> NEW:
>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coordinate IGMP
>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, where x may be either
>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES.  Each PE has a
>    local copy of that state, and the EVPN signaling serves to synchronize
>    state across PEs.

[JD]  This is fine.

>
> But is it "clear enough" as-is?  Again, just barely, and I will demote th=
is topic to a
> COMMENT-level remark.
>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > (2) I am not sure if the body text is consistent with what is
> > > > > being allocated from IANA.  =A78 describes PEs that are not using
> > > > > ingress replication as being identifiable as """any PE that has
> > > > > advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag route for the BD without
> > > > > the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag""", but the IANA considerations
> > > > > allocate flags for both IGMP Proxy Support and MLD Proxy
> > > > > Support.  Is a PE that advertises MLD Proxy Support but not IGMP
> > > > > Proxy Support to be treated as
> > > not using ingress replication, as the literal interpretation of this
> > > text would require?
> > > > > Similarly, =A79.2.1 and =A79.3.1 include restrictions on indicati=
on
> > > > > of support for "IGMP Proxy" with no mention of "MLD Proxy".
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  It should be either IGMP or MLD Proxy Support
> > >
> > > Yes.  Hopefully this is easy to insert into the document itself.
> >
> > [JD]  Would you please review sections 8 and 9.4 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-8__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_U63FOVo$ , and
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i=
etf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-9.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-
> gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_QXUa-Og$ )
> and see if they are is clear enough?
>
> I think they are still problematic in this regard.
>
> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, but we actually=
 have
> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support" flags.
[
JD]  We will fix this.

>
> The =A79.2.1 and 9.3.1 text still has discussion relating to "indicate th=
at it
> supports" proxying of one or the other multicast protocols, and =A79.4 ha=
s a
> paragraph that I paraphrase as "if it supports IGMP proxy, it MUST set th=
e IGMP
> proxy flag to 1".  But the disclaimer in =A73 is specifically worded to o=
nly cover
> "IGMP Membership Report" as including MLD Membership Report, and to have
> version genericity within IGMP and within MLD.  Being specific to the
> Membership Report in this way means that it does *not* come into effect f=
or
> discussions of "support for IGMP proxy" or "support for MLD proxy", which=
 is
> what seems problematic to me, here.
>
> It seems like it ought to be pretty straightforward to craft some text th=
at
> expands the disclaimer in =A73 to cover things like "Likewise, when there=
 is text
> considering whether a PE indicates support for IGMP proxying, the
> corresponding behavior has a natural analogue for indication of support f=
or
> MLD proxying, and the analogous requirements apply as well".

[JD]  We will add this.

>
> -Ben
>
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > >
> > > Ben
> > >
> > > > > I do see that there is a generic disclaimer at the end of
> > > > > Section 3 but the way it is written does not actually seem to cov=
er this
> usage.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > COMMENT:
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > As one of the directorate reviewers noted (and =C9ric promoted to
> > > > > a DISCUSS), this document does not really give any specific
> > > > > description of how an EVPN PE should construct outgoing IGMP/MLD
> > > > > messages to send out on its ACs as a result of receiving EVP
> > > > > information over BGP.  From a brief examination of the relevant
> > > > > IGMP messages, it seems that the EVPN messages might actually
> > > > > contain information to populate literally all the IGMP fields,
> > > > > but this is probably worth mentioning explicitly.  In
> > > > > particular, guidance might be interesting for
> > > > > (e.g.) IGMPv3, that lets multiple Group Records be included in a
> > > > > single Membership Report.
> > > > > (Pedantically, such IGMPv3 multiplexing might also require
> > > > > phrasing changes for the reverse process, taking IGMP and
> > > > > constructing EVPN routes, since we refer to (e.g) "the Group
> > > > > address of the IGMP Membership Report" in places, and that is
> > > > > not a well-defined concept in the absence of some text
> > > > > indicating group-by- group processing.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Abstract
> > > > >
> > > > >    This document describes how to support efficiently endpoints r=
unning
> > > > >    IGMP for the above services over an EVPN network by incorporat=
ing
> > > > >    IGMP proxy procedures on EVPN PEs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see Lars already noted the dangling reference to "above service=
s".
> > > > > That really needs to be fixed before approval, and even looking
> > > > > at the diff from -
> > > > > 12 to -13 does not give me a clear picture of what to suggest as =
a
> rewrite.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 1
> > > > >
> > > > > I strongly suggest mentioning and referencing some of the core
> > > > > technologies that readers are assumed to be familiar with (e.g.,
> > > > > RFC
> > > > > 7432 for EVPN, RFC 6514 for various tunnel types including
> > > > > Ingress
> > > Replication).
> > > > > At present the document is quite unfriendly to a reader from an
> > > > > outside field, who has little to no indication as to what
> > > > > background material is required in order to be able to make sense=
 of this
> document.
> > > > >
> > > > >    In DC applications, a point of delivery (POD) can consist of
> > > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > > Data Center is not marked as "well-known" at
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-
> > > > > editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSLlJ3XlU$
> > > > > and needs to be expanded on first use.
> > > > >
> > > > >    2.  Distributed anycast multicast proxy: it is desirable for t=
he EVPN
> > > > >        network to act as a distributed anycast multicast router
> > > > > with
> > > > >
> > > > > I honestly don't know what a "distributed anycast multicast route=
r"
> > > > > is supposed to be.  Google finds only a handful of instances of
> > > > > that
> > > > > (quoted) phrase, most of which can be traced back to this documen=
t.
> > > > > There is a similar phrase in =A74.2 that perhaps clarifies that
> > > > > the collection of EVPN PEs is intended to function as a
> > > > > distributed multicast router (that is perhaps in some sense trans=
parent to
> the CEs).
> > > > > But how does the "anycast" part come into play?  How is the
> > > > > anycast IP address assigned, and which protocol messages is it co=
nveyed
> in?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 3
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest adding SMET to the terminology listed here.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  Ethernet Segment (ES): When a customer site (device or netw=
ork) is
> > > > >       connected to one or more PEs via a set of Ethernet links.
> > > > >
> > > > > That looks like an extremely unconventional definition for
> > > > > "Ethernet
> > > Segment".
> > > > >
> > > > >    Membership Report too.  Similarly, text for IGMPv2 applies to =
MLDv1
> > > > >    and text for IGMPv3 applies to MLDv2.  IGMP / MLD version enco=
ding in
> > > > >    BGP update is stated in Section 9
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest stating explicitly that this equivalence is possible
> > > > > because the indicated versions provide analogous functionality
> > > > > for IPv4 and
> > > IPv6, respectively.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > >        is considered as a new BGP route advertisement.  When diff=
erent
> > > > >        version of IGMP join are received, final state MUST be as =
per
> > > > >        section 5.1 of [RFC3376].  At the end of route processing =
local
> > > > >        and remote group record state MUST be as per section 5.1 o=
f
> > > > >        [RFC3376].
> > > > >
> > > > > I interpret "different version of IGMP join" as "join messages
> > > > > from different IGMP protocol versions", which makes this
> > > > > reference to RFC
> > > > > 3376 make no sense to me -- the referenced section does not talk
> > > > > about multiple protocol versions at all.  Please clarify what
> > > > > behavior from RFC 3376 is being referenced.
> > > > >
> > > > >        logged.  If the v3 flag is set (in addition to v2), then t=
he IE
> > > > >        flag MUST indicate "exclude".  If not, then an error SHOUL=
D be
> > > > >        logged.  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > It's great to say that this is an error condition and should be l=
ogged.
> > > > > What does the recipient actually do while processing the message?
> > > > > An RFC 7606 named behavior would be nice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.2
> > > > >
> > > > >    As mentioned in the previous sections, each PE MUST have proxy
> > > > >    querier functionality for the following reasons:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not really sure which previous mentions this is supposed to r=
efer to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 6.2.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to confirm: the PE receiving a BGP Leave Synch route does
> > > > > *not* produce local IGMP Query messages, on the assumption that
> > > > > the PE that did receive the Leave locally has already done so?
> > > > > (I don't think this necessarily needs to be written out in the
> > > > > document itself; I just want to confirm my understanding.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 6.3
> > > > >
> > > > >    A PE which has received an IGMP Membership Request would have
> synced
> > > > >    the IGMP Join by the procedure defined in section 6.1.  If a P=
E with
> > > > >    local join state goes down or the PE to CE link goes down, it =
would
> > > > >    lead to a mass withdraw of multicast routes.  Remote PEs (PEs
> > > > > where
> > > > >
> > > > > Can we have greater clarity on "would lead to"?  Are there
> > > > > actually routes that will be withdrawn and we are just ignoring
> > > > > the consequences of that for the purposes of local state, using
> > > > > some heuristic (as mentioned later) for detecting whether a
> > > > > mass-withdraw is due to a failure at a peer?  Or is the mass
> > > > > withdraw a hypothetical scenario
> > > that the procedures described here fully avoid?
> > > > >
> > > > >    these routes were remote IGMP Joins) SHOULD NOT remove the sta=
te
> > > > >    immediately; instead General Query SHOULD be generated to refr=
esh
> the
> > > > >    states.  There are several ways to detect failure at a peer, e=
.g.
> > > > >    using IGP next hop tracking or ES route withdraw.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does each PE initiate the General Query, in this scenario?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 7
> > > > >
> > > > >    Note that to facilitate state synchronization after failover, =
the PEs
> > > > >    attached to a multihomed ES operating in Single-Active redunda=
ncy
> > > > >    mode SHOULD also coordinate IGMP Join (x,G) state.  In this
> > > > > case all
> > > > >
> > > > > What are the drawbacks of not performing such synchronization?
> > > > > Alternately, in what cases does it make sense to not perform
> > > > > synchronization (so that the guidance is SHOULD rather than MUST)=
?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1
> > > > >
> > > > > It might be nice to mention that the length fields are measured
> > > > > in bits here in this section, where the NLRI format is laid out,
> > > > > in addition to
> > > > > =A79.1.1 where the procedures for constructing it are laid out.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  If route is used for IPv6 (MLD) then bit 7 indicates suppor=
t for
> > > > >       MLD version 1.  The second least significant bit, bit 6
> > > > > indicates
> > > > >
> > > > > How does the receiver know if the route is being used for IPv6?
> > > > > (Also applies in =A79.2, 9.3)
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there any requirement for consistency about using IPv4 vs
> > > > > IPv6 addresses in all three address fields?  The description
> > > > > given here would seem to allow mixing address families, but I
> > > > > don't really expect that to
> > > work in practice.
> > > > >
> > > > >    version and any source filtering for a given group membership.=
  All
> > > > >    EVPN SMET routes are announced with per- EVI Route Target exte=
nded
> > > > >    communities.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there a good reference for discussion of these associated ECs?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1.2
> > > > >
> > > > >    PE2 to receive multicast traffic.  In this case PE2 MUST origi=
nate a
> > > > >    (*,*) SMET route to receive all of the multicast traffic in th=
e EVPN
> > > > >    domain.  To generate Wildcards (*,*) routes, the procedure fro=
m
> > > > >    [RFC6625] SHOULD be used.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the PE expected to identify this case based on protocol
> > > > > messages received at runtime (e.g., any PIM at all), or is this e=
xternal
> configuration?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.3.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    Maximum Response Time is value to be used while sending query =
as
> > > > >    defined in [RFC2236]
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it actually right to describe this as "while sending query
> > > > > [messages]"?  My understanding is that a PE receiving this route
> > > > > over BGP would in fact *not* actually send IGMP Query messages,
> > > > > but simply use the time to set a timer and potentially clear up
> > > > > state if certain conditions are met at the end of the period in q=
uestion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 10
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to confirm my understanding here: in the immediate leave
> > > > > case, the Leave Synch route will be advertised just for the
> > > > > "delta" period of time described in
> > > > > =A76.2 and then withdrawn?
> > > > >
> > > > >    IGMP MAY be configured with immediate leave option.  This
> > > > > allows the
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there a suitable reference for "immediate leave"?  I did not
> > > > > see much relevant in RFCs 2236 and 3376.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 12
> > > > >
> > > > > I support Roman's point about detailing which aspects are
> > > > > covered in which referenced RFCs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also noted that the "delta" value used in the Last Member
> > > > > Query process must be configured on each node, and to the same va=
lue.
> > > > > Such requirement for identical configuration opens up the chance
> > > > > for skew, and sometimes any such skew is security-relevant and
> > > > > must be documented in the security considerations.  However, I'm
> > > > > not sure that that's the case, here, as it seems that skew would
> > > > > mostly only serve to cause a brief "blip" where a PE drops its
> > > > > group state only to recreate it when a report shows up later.
> > > > > Is there a scenario where the skew goes the other way, and a PE
> > > > > leaves group state in place
> > > indefinitely that should have been dropped?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 16.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Since we only reference RFC 4684 to say that its procedures are
> > > > > not applicable to what we describe, it seems like it could be
> > > > > classified as only an informative reference.
> > > > >
> > > > > NITS
> > > > >
> > > > > We seem quite inconsistent about whether we write "BCP Leave
> > > > > Synch route" or "IGMP Leave Synch route" (but I believe these
> > > > > are both supposed to be the same thing).
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 1
> > > > >
> > > > >    communication and orchestration.  However, EVPN is used as sta=
ndard
> > > > >    way of inter-POD communication for both intra-DC and
> > > > > inter-DC.  A
> > > > >
> > > > > intra-DC and inter-DC are both adjectives that need to modify som=
e
> noun.
> > > > > Please supply such a noun (e.g., "traffic").
> > > > >
> > > > >    These hosts express their interests in multicast groups on a g=
iven
> > > > >    subnet/VLAN by sending IGMP Membership Reports (Joins) for the=
ir
> > > > >    interested multicast group(s).  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that this phrase "IGMP Membership Reports (Joins)" is
> > > > > intended to serve some cross-protocol clarification role (e.g.,
> > > > > "Join" is used by
> > > > > IGMPv3 and MLD but not IGMPv2).  Since this is the first place
> > > > > where we use that formulation, some additional text to clarify
> > > > > the shorthand seems
> > > in order.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 3
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  BD: Broadcast Domain.  As per [RFC7432], an EVI consists of=
 a
> > > > >       single or multiple BDs.  In case of VLAN-bundle and
> > > > > VLAN-aware
> > > > >
> > > > > RFC 7432 spells "VLAN Bundle" with no hyphen.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  Single-Active Redundancy Mode: When only a single PE, among=
 all
> > > > >       the PEs attached to an Ethernet segment, is allowed to forw=
ard
> > > > >       traffic to/from that Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, the=
n the
> > > > >       Ethernet segment is defined to be operating in Single-Activ=
e
> > > > >       redundancy mode.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  All-Active Redundancy Mode: When all PEs attached to an Eth=
ernet
> > > > >       segment are allowed to forward known unicast traffic to/fro=
m that
> > > > >       Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, then the Ethernet segmen=
t is
> > > > >       defined to be operating in All-Active redundancy mode.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it important that the second definition only covers "unicast t=
raffic"
> > > > > but the former uses the unqualified term "traffic"?
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  OIF: Outgoing Interface for multicast.  It can be physical
> > > > >       interface, virtual interface or tunnel.
> > > > >
> > > > > s/physical/a physical/
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4
> > > > >
> > > > >    The IGMP Proxy mechanism is used to reduce the flooding of IGM=
P
> > > > >    messages over an EVPN network similar to ARP proxy used in
> > > > > reducing
> > > > >
> > > > > "similarly to how ARP proxy is used"
> > > > >
> > > > >    speakers.  The information is again translated back to IGMP me=
ssage
> > > > >    at the recipient EVPN speaker.  Thus it helps create an IGMP
> > > > > overlay
> > > > >
> > > > > "IGMP messages" plural, to match the previous sentence.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    1.  When the first hop PE receives several IGMP Membership Rep=
orts
> > > > >        (Joins), belonging to the same IGMP version, from differen=
t
> > > > >        attached hosts for the same (*,G) or (S,G), it SHOULD send=
 a
> > > > >        single BGP message corresponding to the very first IGMP
> > > > >        Membership Request (BGP update as soon as possible) for th=
at
> > > > >        (*,G) or (S,G).  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > What is an "IGMP Membership Request"?  Is this just a typo for Re=
port?
> > > > >
> > > > >                         This is because BGP is a stateful protoco=
l and
> > > > >        no further transmission of the same report is needed.  If =
the
> > > > >        IGMP Membership Request is for (*,G), then multicast group
> > > > >        address MUST be sent along with the corresponding version =
flag
> > > > >        (v2 or v3) set.  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > (ditto)
> > > > >
> > > > >                                    If the IGMP Join is for (S,G),=
 then
> > > > >        besides setting multicast group address along with the ver=
sion
> > > > >        flag v3, the source IP address and the IE flag MUST be set

--_000_BYAPR11MB27253D4166AB6157C6C53720DF309BYAPR11MB2725namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Ben, 


Making the changes as you suggested. Attached diff w=
hich I would be pushing today.



 


One question 


 


> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy=
 Support" flag, but we actually have

> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support&qu=
ot; flags.


 


Does IGMP or MLD Proxy Support not mean that either =
of them can be set / unset. Any thing specific you want to be added here ?



 


Mankamana 


 




From:
John E Drake <jd=
rake@juniper.net>

Date: Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:17 AM

To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>

Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pr=
oxy@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org>, bess-cha=
irs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org&=
gt;, slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-m=
ld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






Ben,



Comments inline below.



Yours Irrespectively,



John





Juniper Business Use Only



> -----Original Message-----

> From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>

> Sent: Friday, February 4, 2022 8:09 PM

> To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>

> Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-prox=
y@ietf.org;

> bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com

> Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld=
-proxy-

> 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> 

> [External Email. Be cautious of content]

> 

> 

> Hi John,

> 

> My apologies for taking a few weeks to reply; I was sick when this cam=
e in and a

> bunch of stuff piled up, which has taken some time to get back to.

> I can only take a small amount of solace by noting that at least this =
is not the

> last DISCUSS blocking the document from approval.

> 

> Inline...

> 

> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 03:28:11PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:

> >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>

> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 10:08 PM

> > > To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>

> > > Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>;

> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;

> > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com=


> > > Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on

> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-

> > > 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> > >

> > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi John,

> > >

> > > Thanks for helping clarify.  Also inline.

> > >

> > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 06:35:43PM +0000, John E Drake wrote=
:

> > > > Ben,

> > > >

> > > > Comments inline.

> > > >

> > > > Yours Irrespectively,

> > > >

> > > > John

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Juniper Business Use Only

> > > >

> > > > > -----Original Message-----

> > > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@i=
etf.org>

> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 8:49 PM

> > > > > To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>

> > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;<=
br>
> > > > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf=
@gmail.com

> > > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on

> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-

> > > 13:

> > > > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> > > > >

> > > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot po=
sition for

> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: Discuss
> > > > >

> > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line inta=
ct and reply

> > > > > to all email addresses included in the To and CC l=
ines. (Feel

> > > > > free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)=


> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Please refer to

> > > > > 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-i

> > > > > esg-

> > > > > ballot-

> > > > > positions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-

> > > > >

> > >

> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSRrxQJ1U$
> > > > > for more information about how to handle DISCUSS a=
nd COMMENT

> > > positions.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, c=
an be found here:

> > > > > 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra

> > > > > ft-i

> > > > > etf-bess-

> > > > > evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/__;!!NEt6yMaO-

> > > > >

> > >

> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSbOB2k3E$
> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > > DISCUSS:

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > (1) Apparently each PE is supposed to store versio=
n flags for

> > > > > each other PE in the EVI (I guess on a per-route b=
asis?), but

> > > > > this is mentioned just once, in passing, in step 2=
 of the Leave

> > > > > Group procedures in

> > > =A74.1.2.

> > > >

> > > > [JD]  The first hop PE keeps track of which IGMP o=
r MLD versions

> > > > are active on

> > > the ESes to which it is attached and announces this via the =
BGP SMET route.

> > >

> > > Yes.  Should this statement (or something like it) be i=
n the document itself?

> > > (Where?)

> >

> > [JD] Would you please review sections 4 and 5 of the -16

> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra=
ft-ietf-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_GYAo7RM$ ,

> 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iet=
f-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-5__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_8b_wkkE$ ) and see if they are=
 is

> clear enough?

> 

> You ask if they are "clear enough?"  The changes to cla=
rify which steps are done

> by which PEs are quite helpful, and thank you for that.  But they=
 are not really

> addressing the issue that was bothering me.  Nevertheless, in lig=
ht of this discuss

> point being raised in order to have a conversation, I guess they are c=
lear

> *enough*, but just barely, and there's plenty of room to make them mor=
e clear.

> 

> In short, what bothers me here is that we say something like "com=
pare ...

> with its per-PE stored version flags", but we never concretely sa=
y "store some

> per-PE version flags" anywhere.  Now, this is BGP, so of cou=
rse you're storing

> what you got and from whom, but writing it in the way it's currently s=
tated

> makes the reader work pretty hard to figure out what's going on. =
 If we said

> something like (with the caveat that I am surely using the wrong termi=
nology)

> "compare ... with the version flags from the corresponding saved =
EVPN SMET

> route in the BGP session with this PE", that would be very clear =
about what was

> saved and why.

> 

> We could also go further and talk about the information model concrete=
ly, a la:

> 

> % The goal of IGMP and MLD proxying is to make the EVPN behave seamles=
sly

> for % the tenant systems with respect to multicast operations, while u=
sing a

> more % efficient delivery system for signaling and delivery across the=
 VPN.

> % Accordingly, group state must be tracked synchronously among the PEs=
 %

> serving the VPN, with join and leave events propagated to the peer PEs=
, and %

> each PE tracking the state of each of its peer PEs with respect whethe=
r % there

> are locally attached group members (and in some cases, senders), what =
%

> version(s) of IGMP/MLD are in use for those locally attached group mem=
bers, %

> etc.  In order to perform this translation, each PE acts as an IG=
MP router % for

> the locally attached domain, and maintains the requisite state on % lo=
cally

> attached nodes, sends periodic membership queries, etc.  The role=
 % of EVPN

> SMET route propagation is to ensure that each PE's local state is % pr=
opagated

> to the other PEs so that they share a consistent view of the % overall=
 IGMP

> Membership Request and Leave Group state.  It is important to % n=
ote that the

> need to keep such local state can be triggered by either % local IGMP =
traffic or

> BGP EVPN signaling.  In most cases a local IGMP event % will need=
 to be signaled

> over EVPN, though state initiated by received EVPN % traffic will not =
always

> need to be relayed to the locally attached domain.



[JD]  We can add this text to section 4. 

> 

> > >

> > > > > Similarly, =A76.1 defines, somewhat in passing, so=
me "local IGMP

> > > > > Membership Request (x,G) state" that must be =
maintained in some cases.

> > > > > Let's discuss whether it's appropriate/useful to h=
ave a general

> > > > > introductory section that covers what new state PE=
s are expected

> > > > > to retain as part of supporting IGMP/MLD proxying.=
  Maybe the

> > > > > answer is "no", but I would like to have=
 the conversation.

> > > >

> > > > [JD]  Section 6 generalizes the notion of a first =
hop PE to be the

> > > > set of multi-

> > > homed PEs attached to a given ES.  Section 6

> > > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/html/d

> > > raft-ietf-

> > > bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-

> > > gk!WAMtLTp8pHMhjeyfDY13FOVPAqTuQaEqcCu8hQOf-

> > > GMscsBgaRFDzERgy6ZEfS8$ ) explains why the multi-homed PEs n=
eed to

> > > synchronize state and section 6.1 explains what is that stat=
e:

> > >

> > > Rereading it, it does explain the need for state synchroniza=
tion;

> > > thanks for pointing that out.  However, it does not app=
ear to use or

> > > introduce the specific term that the subsequent subsections =
are

> > > using to refer to that state.  It seems like it could b=
e useful to

> > > have a defined term for this state, to help readers make the=


> > > connection between the need to track the state and where tha=
t state is

> referenced in the subsequent procedures.

> > >

> > > >  If the PE doesn't already have local IGMP Members=
hip Request

> > > > (x,G) state for

> > > that BD on that ES, it MUST instantiate local IGMP Membershi=
p

> > > Request (x,G) state and MUST advertise a BGP IGMP Join Synch=
 route

> > > for that (ES,BD).  Local IGMP Membership Request (x,G) =
state refers

> > > to IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state that is created as a =
result

> > > of processing an IGMP Membership Report for (x,G).

> > > >

> > > > i.e., IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state is the union =
of the

> > > > local IGMP Join

> > > (x,G) state and the installed IGMP Join Synch route.

> > >

> > > This would be a great start to a definition for such a defin=
ed term

> > > that I propose above.

> >

> > [JD]  Would you please review section 6 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra=
ft-ietf-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_dTYpjPA$ ) and see if it is cl=
ear

> enough?

> 

> Even if you don't want to use the "concrete information model&quo=
t; approach I

> outline above, I think this text would be much clearer with the follow=
ing change

> in =A76:

> 

> OLD:

>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coord=
inate IGMP

>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, wher=
e x may be either

>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES=
. [...]

> 

> NEW:

>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coord=
inate IGMP

>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, wher=
e x may be either

>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES=
.  Each PE has a

>    local copy of that state, and the EVPN signaling ser=
ves to synchronize

>    state across PEs.



[JD]  This is fine. 



> 

> But is it "clear enough" as-is?  Again, just barely, an=
d I will demote this topic to a

> COMMENT-level remark.

> 

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > (2) I am not sure if the body text is consistent w=
ith what is

> > > > > being allocated from IANA.  =A78 describes PE=
s that are not using

> > > > > ingress replication as being identifiable as "=
;""any PE that has

> > > > > advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag route for th=
e BD without

> > > > > the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag""=
;", but the IANA considerations

> > > > > allocate flags for both IGMP Proxy Support and MLD=
 Proxy

> > > > > Support.  Is a PE that advertises MLD Proxy S=
upport but not IGMP

> > > > > Proxy Support to be treated as

> > > not using ingress replication, as the literal interpretation=
 of this

> > > text would require?

> > > > > Similarly, =A79.2.1 and =A79.3.1 include restricti=
ons on indication

> > > > > of support for "IGMP Proxy" with no ment=
ion of "MLD Proxy".

> > > >

> > > > [JD]  It should be either IGMP or MLD Proxy Suppor=
t

> > >

> > > Yes.  Hopefully this is easy to insert into the documen=
t itself.

> >

> > [JD]  Would you please review sections 8 and 9.4 of the -16 =
version

> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra=
ft-ietf-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-8__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_U63FOVo$ , and

> 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iet=
f-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-9.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-

> gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_QXUa-Og$ )<=
br>
> and see if they are is clear enough?

> 

> I think they are still problematic in this regard.

> 

> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, bu=
t we actually have

> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support&qu=
ot; flags.

[

JD]  We will fix this. 



> 

> The =A79.2.1 and 9.3.1 text still has discussion relating to "ind=
icate that it

> supports" proxying of one or the other multicast protocols, and =
=A79.4 has a

> paragraph that I paraphrase as "if it supports IGMP proxy, it MUS=
T set the IGMP

> proxy flag to 1".  But the disclaimer in =A73 is specificall=
y worded to only cover

> "IGMP Membership Report" as including MLD Membership Report,=
 and to have

> version genericity within IGMP and within MLD.  Being specific to=
 the

> Membership Report in this way means that it does *not* come into effec=
t for

> discussions of "support for IGMP proxy" or "support for=
 MLD proxy", which is

> what seems problematic to me, here.

> 

> It seems like it ought to be pretty straightforward to craft some text=
 that

> expands the disclaimer in =A73 to cover things like "Likewise, wh=
en there is text

> considering whether a PE indicates support for IGMP proxying, the

> corresponding behavior has a natural analogue for indication of suppor=
t for

> MLD proxying, and the analogous requirements apply as well".



[JD]  We will add this. 



> 

> -Ben

> 

> > >

> > > Thanks again,

> > >

> > > Ben

> > >

> > > > > I do see that there is a generic disclaimer at the=
 end of

> > > > > Section 3 but the way it is written does not actua=
lly seem to cover this

> usage.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > > COMMENT:

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > As one of the directorate reviewers noted (and =C9=
ric promoted to

> > > > > a DISCUSS), this document does not really give any=
 specific

> > > > > description of how an EVPN PE should construct out=
going IGMP/MLD

> > > > > messages to send out on its ACs as a result of rec=
eiving EVP

> > > > > information over BGP.  From a brief examinati=
on of the relevant

> > > > > IGMP messages, it seems that the EVPN messages mig=
ht actually

> > > > > contain information to populate literally all the =
IGMP fields,

> > > > > but this is probably worth mentioning explicitly.&=
nbsp; In

> > > > > particular, guidance might be interesting for

> > > > > (e.g.) IGMPv3, that lets multiple Group Records be=
 included in a

> > > > > single Membership Report.

> > > > > (Pedantically, such IGMPv3 multiplexing might also=
 require

> > > > > phrasing changes for the reverse process, taking I=
GMP and

> > > > > constructing EVPN routes, since we refer to (e.g) =
"the Group

> > > > > address of the IGMP Membership Report" in pla=
ces, and that is

> > > > > not a well-defined concept in the absence of some =
text

> > > > > indicating group-by- group processing.)

> > > > >

> > > > > Abstract

> > > > >

> > > > >    This document describes how to s=
upport efficiently endpoints running

> > > > >    IGMP for the above services over=
 an EVPN network by incorporating

> > > > >    IGMP proxy procedures on EVPN PE=
s.

> > > > >

> > > > > I see Lars already noted the dangling reference to=
 "above services".

> > > > > That really needs to be fixed before approval, and=
 even looking

> > > > > at the diff from -

> > > > > 12 to -13 does not give me a clear picture of what=
 to suggest as a

> rewrite.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 1

> > > > >

> > > > > I strongly suggest mentioning and referencing some=
 of the core

> > > > > technologies that readers are assumed to be famili=
ar with (e.g.,

> > > > > RFC

> > > > > 7432 for EVPN, RFC 6514 for various tunnel types i=
ncluding

> > > > > Ingress

> > > Replication).

> > > > > At present the document is quite unfriendly to a r=
eader from an

> > > > > outside field, who has little to no indication as =
to what

> > > > > background material is required in order to be abl=
e to make sense of this

> document.

> > > > >

> > > > >    In DC applications, a point of d=
elivery (POD) can consist of

> > > > > a

> > > > >

> > > > > Data Center is not marked as "well-known"=
; at

> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-

> > > > > editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt__;!!NEt6=
yMaO-

> > > > >

> > >

> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSLlJ3XlU$
> > > > > and needs to be expanded on first use.

> > > > >

> > > > >    2.  Distributed anycast mul=
ticast proxy: it is desirable for the EVPN

> > > > >        network =
to act as a distributed anycast multicast router

> > > > > with

> > > > >

> > > > > I honestly don't know what a "distributed any=
cast multicast router"

> > > > > is supposed to be.  Google finds only a handf=
ul of instances of

> > > > > that

> > > > > (quoted) phrase, most of which can be traced back =
to this document.

> > > > > There is a similar phrase in =A74.2 that perhaps c=
larifies that

> > > > > the collection of EVPN PEs is intended to function=
 as a

> > > > > distributed multicast router (that is perhaps in s=
ome sense transparent to

> the CEs).

> > > > > But how does the "anycast" part come int=
o play?  How is the

> > > > > anycast IP address assigned, and which protocol me=
ssages is it conveyed

> in?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 3

> > > > >

> > > > > I suggest adding SMET to the terminology listed he=
re.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  Ethernet Segment (ES): W=
hen a customer site (device or network) is

> > > > >       connected to o=
ne or more PEs via a set of Ethernet links.

> > > > >

> > > > > That looks like an extremely unconventional defini=
tion for

> > > > > "Ethernet

> > > Segment".

> > > > >

> > > > >    Membership Report too.  Sim=
ilarly, text for IGMPv2 applies to MLDv1

> > > > >    and text for IGMPv3 applies to M=
LDv2.  IGMP / MLD version encoding in

> > > > >    BGP update is stated in Section =
9

> > > > >

> > > > > I suggest stating explicitly that this equivalence=
 is possible

> > > > > because the indicated versions provide analogous f=
unctionality

> > > > > for IPv4 and

> > > IPv6, respectively.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4.1.1

> > > > >

> > > > >        is consi=
dered as a new BGP route advertisement.  When different

> > > > >        version =
of IGMP join are received, final state MUST be as per

> > > > >        section =
5.1 of [RFC3376].  At the end of route processing local

> > > > >        and remo=
te group record state MUST be as per section 5.1 of

> > > > >        [RFC3376=
].

> > > > >

> > > > > I interpret "different version of IGMP join&q=
uot; as "join messages

> > > > > from different IGMP protocol versions", which=
 makes this

> > > > > reference to RFC

> > > > > 3376 make no sense to me -- the referenced section=
 does not talk

> > > > > about multiple protocol versions at all.  Ple=
ase clarify what

> > > > > behavior from RFC 3376 is being referenced.

> > > > >

> > > > >        logged.&=
nbsp; If the v3 flag is set (in addition to v2), then the IE

> > > > >        flag MUS=
T indicate "exclude".  If not, then an error SHOULD be

> > > > >        logged.&=
nbsp; [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > It's great to say that this is an error condition =
and should be logged.

> > > > > What does the recipient actually do while processi=
ng the message?

> > > > > An RFC 7606 named behavior would be nice.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4.2

> > > > >

> > > > >    As mentioned in the previous sec=
tions, each PE MUST have proxy

> > > > >    querier functionality for the fo=
llowing reasons:

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not really sure which previous mentions this i=
s supposed to refer to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 6.2.1

> > > > >

> > > > > Just to confirm: the PE receiving a BGP Leave Sync=
h route does

> > > > > *not* produce local IGMP Query messages, on the as=
sumption that

> > > > > the PE that did receive the Leave locally has alre=
ady done so?

> > > > > (I don't think this necessarily needs to be writte=
n out in the

> > > > > document itself; I just want to confirm my underst=
anding.)

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 6.3

> > > > >

> > > > >    A PE which has received an IGMP =
Membership Request would have

> synced

> > > > >    the IGMP Join by the procedure d=
efined in section 6.1.  If a PE with

> > > > >    local join state goes down or th=
e PE to CE link goes down, it would

> > > > >    lead to a mass withdraw of multi=
cast routes.  Remote PEs (PEs

> > > > > where

> > > > >

> > > > > Can we have greater clarity on "would lead to=
"?  Are there

> > > > > actually routes that will be withdrawn and we are =
just ignoring

> > > > > the consequences of that for the purposes of local=
 state, using

> > > > > some heuristic (as mentioned later) for detecting =
whether a

> > > > > mass-withdraw is due to a failure at a peer? =
 Or is the mass

> > > > > withdraw a hypothetical scenario

> > > that the procedures described here fully avoid?

> > > > >

> > > > >    these routes were remote IGMP Jo=
ins) SHOULD NOT remove the state

> > > > >    immediately; instead General Que=
ry SHOULD be generated to refresh

> the

> > > > >    states.  There are several =
ways to detect failure at a peer, e.g.

> > > > >    using IGP next hop tracking or E=
S route withdraw.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does each PE initiate the General Query, in this s=
cenario?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 7

> > > > >

> > > > >    Note that to facilitate state sy=
nchronization after failover, the PEs

> > > > >    attached to a multihomed ES oper=
ating in Single-Active redundancy

> > > > >    mode SHOULD also coordinate IGMP=
 Join (x,G) state.  In this

> > > > > case all

> > > > >

> > > > > What are the drawbacks of not performing such sync=
hronization?

> > > > > Alternately, in what cases does it make sense to n=
ot perform

> > > > > synchronization (so that the guidance is SHOULD ra=
ther than MUST)?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.1

> > > > >

> > > > > It might be nice to mention that the length fields=
 are measured

> > > > > in bits here in this section, where the NLRI forma=
t is laid out,

> > > > > in addition to

> > > > > =A79.1.1 where the procedures for constructing it =
are laid out.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  If route is used for IPv=
6 (MLD) then bit 7 indicates support for

> > > > >       MLD version 1.=
  The second least significant bit, bit 6

> > > > > indicates

> > > > >

> > > > > How does the receiver know if the route is being u=
sed for IPv6?

> > > > > (Also applies in =A79.2, 9.3)

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.1.1

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there any requirement for consistency about usi=
ng IPv4 vs

> > > > > IPv6 addresses in all three address fields?  =
The description

> > > > > given here would seem to allow mixing address fami=
lies, but I

> > > > > don't really expect that to

> > > work in practice.

> > > > >

> > > > >    version and any source filtering=
 for a given group membership.  All

> > > > >    EVPN SMET routes are announced w=
ith per- EVI Route Target extended

> > > > >    communities.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there a good reference for discussion of these =
associated ECs?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.1.2

> > > > >

> > > > >    PE2 to receive multicast traffic=
.  In this case PE2 MUST originate a

> > > > >    (*,*) SMET route to receive all =
of the multicast traffic in the EVPN

> > > > >    domain.  To generate Wildca=
rds (*,*) routes, the procedure from

> > > > >    [RFC6625] SHOULD be used.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is the PE expected to identify this case based on =
protocol

> > > > > messages received at runtime (e.g., any PIM at all=
), or is this external

> configuration?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.3.1

> > > > >

> > > > >    Maximum Response Time is value t=
o be used while sending query as

> > > > >    defined in [RFC2236]

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it actually right to describe this as "whi=
le sending query

> > > > > [messages]"?  My understanding is that a=
 PE receiving this route

> > > > > over BGP would in fact *not* actually send IGMP Qu=
ery messages,

> > > > > but simply use the time to set a timer and potenti=
ally clear up

> > > > > state if certain conditions are met at the end of =
the period in question.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 10

> > > > >

> > > > > Just to confirm my understanding here: in the imme=
diate leave

> > > > > case, the Leave Synch route will be advertised jus=
t for the

> > > > > "delta" period of time described in

> > > > > =A76.2 and then withdrawn?

> > > > >

> > > > >    IGMP MAY be configured with imme=
diate leave option.  This

> > > > > allows the

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there a suitable reference for "immediate =
leave"?  I did not

> > > > > see much relevant in RFCs 2236 and 3376.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 12

> > > > >

> > > > > I support Roman's point about detailing which aspe=
cts are

> > > > > covered in which referenced RFCs.

> > > > >

> > > > > I also noted that the "delta" value used=
 in the Last Member

> > > > > Query process must be configured on each node, and=
 to the same value.

> > > > > Such requirement for identical configuration opens=
 up the chance

> > > > > for skew, and sometimes any such skew is security-=
relevant and

> > > > > must be documented in the security considerations.=
  However, I'm

> > > > > not sure that that's the case, here, as it seems t=
hat skew would

> > > > > mostly only serve to cause a brief "blip"=
; where a PE drops its

> > > > > group state only to recreate it when a report show=
s up later.

> > > > > Is there a scenario where the skew goes the other =
way, and a PE

> > > > > leaves group state in place

> > > indefinitely that should have been dropped?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 16.1

> > > > >

> > > > > Since we only reference RFC 4684 to say that its p=
rocedures are

> > > > > not applicable to what we describe, it seems like =
it could be

> > > > > classified as only an informative reference.

> > > > >

> > > > > NITS

> > > > >

> > > > > We seem quite inconsistent about whether we write =
"BCP Leave

> > > > > Synch route" or "IGMP Leave Synch route&=
quot; (but I believe these

> > > > > are both supposed to be the same thing).

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 1

> > > > >

> > > > >    communication and orchestration.=
  However, EVPN is used as standard

> > > > >    way of inter-POD communication f=
or both intra-DC and

> > > > > inter-DC.  A

> > > > >

> > > > > intra-DC and inter-DC are both adjectives that nee=
d to modify some

> noun.

> > > > > Please supply such a noun (e.g., "traffic&quo=
t;).

> > > > >

> > > > >    These hosts express their intere=
sts in multicast groups on a given

> > > > >    subnet/VLAN by sending IGMP Memb=
ership Reports (Joins) for their

> > > > >    interested multicast group(s).&n=
bsp; [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > I think that this phrase "IGMP Membership Rep=
orts (Joins)" is

> > > > > intended to serve some cross-protocol clarificatio=
n role (e.g.,

> > > > > "Join" is used by

> > > > > IGMPv3 and MLD but not IGMPv2).  Since this i=
s the first place

> > > > > where we use that formulation, some additional tex=
t to clarify

> > > > > the shorthand seems

> > > in order.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 3

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  BD: Broadcast Domain.&nb=
sp; As per [RFC7432], an EVI consists of a

> > > > >       single or mult=
iple BDs.  In case of VLAN-bundle and

> > > > > VLAN-aware

> > > > >

> > > > > RFC 7432 spells "VLAN Bundle" with no hy=
phen.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  Single-Active Redundancy=
 Mode: When only a single PE, among all

> > > > >       the PEs attach=
ed to an Ethernet segment, is allowed to forward

> > > > >       traffic to/fro=
m that Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, then the

> > > > >       Ethernet segme=
nt is defined to be operating in Single-Active

> > > > >       redundancy mod=
e.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  All-Active Redundancy Mo=
de: When all PEs attached to an Ethernet

> > > > >       segment are al=
lowed to forward known unicast traffic to/from that

> > > > >       Ethernet segme=
nt for a given VLAN, then the Ethernet segment is

> > > > >       defined to be =
operating in All-Active redundancy mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it important that the second definition only co=
vers "unicast traffic"

> > > > > but the former uses the unqualified term "tra=
ffic"?

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  OIF: Outgoing Interface =
for multicast.  It can be physical

> > > > >       interface, vir=
tual interface or tunnel.

> > > > >

> > > > > s/physical/a physical/

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4

> > > > >

> > > > >    The IGMP Proxy mechanism is used=
 to reduce the flooding of IGMP

> > > > >    messages over an EVPN network si=
milar to ARP proxy used in

> > > > > reducing

> > > > >

> > > > > "similarly to how ARP proxy is used"

> > > > >

> > > > >    speakers.  The information =
is again translated back to IGMP message

> > > > >    at the recipient EVPN speaker.&n=
bsp; Thus it helps create an IGMP

> > > > > overlay

> > > > >

> > > > > "IGMP messages" plural, to match the pre=
vious sentence.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4.1.1

> > > > >

> > > > >    1.  When the first hop PE r=
eceives several IGMP Membership Reports

> > > > >        (Joins),=
 belonging to the same IGMP version, from different

> > > > >        attached=
 hosts for the same (*,G) or (S,G), it SHOULD send a

> > > > >        single B=
GP message corresponding to the very first IGMP

> > > > >        Membersh=
ip Request (BGP update as soon as possible) for that

> > > > >        (*,G) or=
 (S,G).  [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > What is an "IGMP Membership Request"?&nb=
sp; Is this just a typo for Report?

> > > > >

> > > > >        &nb=
sp;            =
    This is because BGP is a stateful protocol and

> > > > >        no furth=
er transmission of the same report is needed.  If the

> > > > >        IGMP Mem=
bership Request is for (*,G), then multicast group

> > > > >        address =
MUST be sent along with the corresponding version flag

> > > > >        (v2 or v=
3) set.  [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > (ditto)

> > > > >

> > > > >        &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;  If the IGMP Join is for (S,G), then

> > > > >        besides =
setting multicast group address along with the version

> > > > >        flag v3,=
 the source IP address and the IE flag MUST be set








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From: John E Drake 
To: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" , Benjamin Kaduk 
CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 16:12:59 +0000
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References: <163477731824.13216.11701195886404718166@ietfa.amsl.com>  <20211022020803.GT88762@kduck.mit.edu>  <20220205010845.GZ11486@mit.edu>  
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi,

Here are my proposed changes:

8.  Selective Multicast Procedures for IR tunnels

   If an ingress PE uses ingress replication, then for a given (x,G)
   group in a given BD:

   1.  It sends (x,G) traffic to the set of PEs not supporting IGMP
       Proxy.  This set consists of any PE that has advertised an
       Inclusive Multicast Tag route for the BD without the "IGMP Proxy
       Support" flag.

*****JD  This set consists of any PE that has advertised an IMET route for =
the BD
without a  Multicast Flags extended community or with a Multicast Flags ext=
ended
community in which neither the IGMP Proxy support nor the  MLD Proxy suppor=
t
flags are set.

   2.  It sends (x,G) traffic to the set of PEs supporting IGMP Proxy
       and having listeners for that (x,G) group in that BD.  This set
       consists of any PE that has advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag
       route for the BD with the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag and that has
       advertised a SMET route for that (x,G) group in that BD.

*****JD  This set consists of any PE that has advertised an IMET route for =
the BD
with a Multicast Flags extended community in which the IGMP Proxy support a=
nd/or
the  MLD Proxy support flags are set and that has advertised a SMET route f=
or that (x,G)
group in that BD.

   If an ingress PE's Selective P-Tunnel for a given BD uses P2MP and
   all of the PEs in the BD support that tunnel type and IGMP proxy,

*****JD and IGMP and/or MLD proxy,

   then for a given (x,G) group in a given BD it sends (x,G) traffic
   using the Selective P-Tunnel for that (x,G) group in that BD.  This
   tunnel includes those PEs that have advertised a SMET route for that
   (x,G) group on that BD (for Selective P-tunnel) but it may include
   other PEs as well (for Aggregate Selective P-tunnel).

9.4.  Multicast Flags Extended Community

   The 'Multicast Flags' extended community is a new EVPN extended
   community.  EVPN extended communities are transitive extended
   communities with a Type field value of 6.  IANA will assign a Sub-
   Type from the 'EVPN Extended Community Sub-Types' registry.

   A PE that supports IGMP proxy on a given BD MUST attach this extended
   community to the Inclusive Multicast Ethernet Tag (IMET) route it
   advertises for that BD and it MUST set the IGMP Proxy Support flag to
   1.  Note that an [RFC7432=
] compliant PE will not advertise this
   extended community so its absence indicates that the advertising PE
   does not support IGMP Proxy.

*****JD     A PE that supports IGMP and/or MLD Proxy on a given BD
MUST attach this extended community to the IMET route it advertises
advertises for that BD and it MUST set the IGMP and/or MLD Proxy
Support flags to 1.  Note that an [RFC7432] compliant PE will not advertise this
extended community so its absence indicates that the advertising PE
does not support either IGMP or MLD Proxy.


Yours Irrespectively,

John



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) 
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 11:02 AM
To: John E Drake ; Benjamin Kaduk 
Cc: The IESG ; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;=
 bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-prox=
y-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Hi Ben,
Making the changes as you suggested. Attached diff which I would be pushing=
 today.

One question

> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, but we actually=
 have
> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support" flags.

Does IGMP or MLD Proxy Support not mean that either of them can be set / un=
set. Any thing specific you want to be added here ?

Mankamana

From: John E Drake >
Date: Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:17 AM
To: Benjamin Kaduk >
Cc: The IESG >, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-ig=
mp-mld-proxy@ietf.org =
>, bess-chairs@ietf.org=
 >, bess@ietf.org >, slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om >
Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-prox=
y-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Ben,

Comments inline below.

Yours Irrespectively,

John


Juniper Business Use Only

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Kaduk >
> Sent: Friday, February 4, 2022 8:09 PM
> To: John E Drake >
> Cc: The IESG >; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pr=
oxy-
> 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> My apologies for taking a few weeks to reply; I was sick when this came i=
n and a
> bunch of stuff piled up, which has taken some time to get back to.
> I can only take a small amount of solace by noting that at least this is =
not the
> last DISCUSS blocking the document from approval.
>
> Inline...
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 03:28:11PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Benjamin Kaduk >
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 10:08 PM
> > > To: John E Drake >
> > > Cc: The IESG >;
> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> > > Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on
> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-
> > > 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > >
> > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > Thanks for helping clarify.  Also inline.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 06:35:43PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:
> > > > Ben,
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline.
> > > >
> > > > Yours Irrespectively,
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Juniper Business Use Only
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker >
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 8:49 PM
> > > > > To: The IESG >
> > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> > > > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org<=
mailto:bess@ietf.org>; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> > > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on
> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-
> > > 13:
> > > > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > > > >
> > > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: Discuss
> > > > >
> > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
> > > > > to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel
> > > > > free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please refer to
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-i<=
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/blog/handling-i>
> > > > > esg-
> > > > > ballot-
> > > > > positions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSRrxQJ1U$
> > > > > for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT
> > > positions.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found her=
e:
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra<=
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra>
> > > > > ft-i
> > > > > etf-bess-
> > > > > evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSbOB2k3E$
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > (1) Apparently each PE is supposed to store version flags for
> > > > > each other PE in the EVI (I guess on a per-route basis?), but
> > > > > this is mentioned just once, in passing, in step 2 of the Leave
> > > > > Group procedures in
> > > =A74.1.2.
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  The first hop PE keeps track of which IGMP or MLD versions
> > > > are active on
> > > the ESes to which it is attached and announces this via the BGP SMET =
route.
> > >
> > > Yes.  Should this statement (or something like it) be in the document=
 itself?
> > > (Where?)
> >
> > [JD] Would you please review sections 4 and 5 of the -16
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_GYAo7RM$ ,
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i=
etf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-5__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_8b_wkkE$ ) and see if they are is
> clear enough?
>
> You ask if they are "clear enough?"  The changes to clarify which steps a=
re done
> by which PEs are quite helpful, and thank you for that.  But they are not=
 really
> addressing the issue that was bothering me.  Nevertheless, in light of th=
is discuss
> point being raised in order to have a conversation, I guess they are clea=
r
> *enough*, but just barely, and there's plenty of room to make them more c=
lear.
>
> In short, what bothers me here is that we say something like "compare ...
> with its per-PE stored version flags", but we never concretely say "store=
 some
> per-PE version flags" anywhere.  Now, this is BGP, so of course you're st=
oring
> what you got and from whom, but writing it in the way it's currently stat=
ed
> makes the reader work pretty hard to figure out what's going on.  If we s=
aid
> something like (with the caveat that I am surely using the wrong terminol=
ogy)
> "compare ... with the version flags from the corresponding saved EVPN SME=
T
> route in the BGP session with this PE", that would be very clear about wh=
at was
> saved and why.
>
> We could also go further and talk about the information model concretely,=
 a la:
>
> % The goal of IGMP and MLD proxying is to make the EVPN behave seamlessly
> for % the tenant systems with respect to multicast operations, while usin=
g a
> more % efficient delivery system for signaling and delivery across the VP=
N.
> % Accordingly, group state must be tracked synchronously among the PEs %
> serving the VPN, with join and leave events propagated to the peer PEs, a=
nd %
> each PE tracking the state of each of its peer PEs with respect whether %=
 there
> are locally attached group members (and in some cases, senders), what %
> version(s) of IGMP/MLD are in use for those locally attached group member=
s, %
> etc.  In order to perform this translation, each PE acts as an IGMP route=
r % for
> the locally attached domain, and maintains the requisite state on % local=
ly
> attached nodes, sends periodic membership queries, etc.  The role % of EV=
PN
> SMET route propagation is to ensure that each PE's local state is % propa=
gated
> to the other PEs so that they share a consistent view of the % overall IG=
MP
> Membership Request and Leave Group state.  It is important to % note that=
 the
> need to keep such local state can be triggered by either % local IGMP tra=
ffic or
> BGP EVPN signaling.  In most cases a local IGMP event % will need to be s=
ignaled
> over EVPN, though state initiated by received EVPN % traffic will not alw=
ays
> need to be relayed to the locally attached domain.

[JD]  We can add this text to section 4.
>
> > >
> > > > > Similarly, =A76.1 defines, somewhat in passing, some "local IGMP
> > > > > Membership Request (x,G) state" that must be maintained in some c=
ases.
> > > > > Let's discuss whether it's appropriate/useful to have a general
> > > > > introductory section that covers what new state PEs are expected
> > > > > to retain as part of supporting IGMP/MLD proxying.  Maybe the
> > > > > answer is "no", but I would like to have the conversation.
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  Section 6 generalizes the notion of a first hop PE to be the
> > > > set of multi-
> > > homed PEs attached to a given ES.  Section 6
> > > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d<=
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d>
> > > raft-ietf-
> > > bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > gk!WAMtLTp8pHMhjeyfDY13FOVPAqTuQaEqcCu8hQOf-
> > > GMscsBgaRFDzERgy6ZEfS8$ ) explains why the multi-homed PEs need to
> > > synchronize state and section 6.1 explains what is that state:
> > >
> > > Rereading it, it does explain the need for state synchronization;
> > > thanks for pointing that out.  However, it does not appear to use or
> > > introduce the specific term that the subsequent subsections are
> > > using to refer to that state.  It seems like it could be useful to
> > > have a defined term for this state, to help readers make the
> > > connection between the need to track the state and where that state i=
s
> referenced in the subsequent procedures.
> > >
> > > >  If the PE doesn't already have local IGMP Membership Request
> > > > (x,G) state for
> > > that BD on that ES, it MUST instantiate local IGMP Membership
> > > Request (x,G) state and MUST advertise a BGP IGMP Join Synch route
> > > for that (ES,BD).  Local IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state refers
> > > to IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state that is created as a result
> > > of processing an IGMP Membership Report for (x,G).
> > > >
> > > > i.e., IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state is the union of the
> > > > local IGMP Join
> > > (x,G) state and the installed IGMP Join Synch route.
> > >
> > > This would be a great start to a definition for such a defined term
> > > that I propose above.
> >
> > [JD]  Would you please review section 6 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_dTYpjPA$ ) and see if it is clear
> enough?
>
> Even if you don't want to use the "concrete information model" approach I
> outline above, I think this text would be much clearer with the following=
 change
> in =A76:
>
> OLD:
>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coordinate IGMP
>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, where x may be either
>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES. [...]
>
> NEW:
>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coordinate IGMP
>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, where x may be either
>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES.  Each PE has a
>    local copy of that state, and the EVPN signaling serves to synchronize
>    state across PEs.

[JD]  This is fine.

>
> But is it "clear enough" as-is?  Again, just barely, and I will demote th=
is topic to a
> COMMENT-level remark.
>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > (2) I am not sure if the body text is consistent with what is
> > > > > being allocated from IANA.  =A78 describes PEs that are not using
> > > > > ingress replication as being identifiable as """any PE that has
> > > > > advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag route for the BD without
> > > > > the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag""", but the IANA considerations
> > > > > allocate flags for both IGMP Proxy Support and MLD Proxy
> > > > > Support.  Is a PE that advertises MLD Proxy Support but not IGMP
> > > > > Proxy Support to be treated as
> > > not using ingress replication, as the literal interpretation of this
> > > text would require?
> > > > > Similarly, =A79.2.1 and =A79.3.1 include restrictions on indicati=
on
> > > > > of support for "IGMP Proxy" with no mention of "MLD Proxy".
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  It should be either IGMP or MLD Proxy Support
> > >
> > > Yes.  Hopefully this is easy to insert into the document itself.
> >
> > [JD]  Would you please review sections 8 and 9.4 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-8__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_U63FOVo$ , and
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i=
etf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-9.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-
> gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_QXUa-Og$ )
> and see if they are is clear enough?
>
> I think they are still problematic in this regard.
>
> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, but we actually=
 have
> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support" flags.
[
JD]  We will fix this.

>
> The =A79.2.1 and 9.3.1 text still has discussion relating to "indicate th=
at it
> supports" proxying of one or the other multicast protocols, and =A79.4 ha=
s a
> paragraph that I paraphrase as "if it supports IGMP proxy, it MUST set th=
e IGMP
> proxy flag to 1".  But the disclaimer in =A73 is specifically worded to o=
nly cover
> "IGMP Membership Report" as including MLD Membership Report, and to have
> version genericity within IGMP and within MLD.  Being specific to the
> Membership Report in this way means that it does *not* come into effect f=
or
> discussions of "support for IGMP proxy" or "support for MLD proxy", which=
 is
> what seems problematic to me, here.
>
> It seems like it ought to be pretty straightforward to craft some text th=
at
> expands the disclaimer in =A73 to cover things like "Likewise, when there=
 is text
> considering whether a PE indicates support for IGMP proxying, the
> corresponding behavior has a natural analogue for indication of support f=
or
> MLD proxying, and the analogous requirements apply as well".

[JD]  We will add this.

>
> -Ben
>
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > >
> > > Ben
> > >
> > > > > I do see that there is a generic disclaimer at the end of
> > > > > Section 3 but the way it is written does not actually seem to cov=
er this
> usage.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > COMMENT:
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > As one of the directorate reviewers noted (and =C9ric promoted to
> > > > > a DISCUSS), this document does not really give any specific
> > > > > description of how an EVPN PE should construct outgoing IGMP/MLD
> > > > > messages to send out on its ACs as a result of receiving EVP
> > > > > information over BGP.  From a brief examination of the relevant
> > > > > IGMP messages, it seems that the EVPN messages might actually
> > > > > contain information to populate literally all the IGMP fields,
> > > > > but this is probably worth mentioning explicitly.  In
> > > > > particular, guidance might be interesting for
> > > > > (e.g.) IGMPv3, that lets multiple Group Records be included in a
> > > > > single Membership Report.
> > > > > (Pedantically, such IGMPv3 multiplexing might also require
> > > > > phrasing changes for the reverse process, taking IGMP and
> > > > > constructing EVPN routes, since we refer to (e.g) "the Group
> > > > > address of the IGMP Membership Report" in places, and that is
> > > > > not a well-defined concept in the absence of some text
> > > > > indicating group-by- group processing.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Abstract
> > > > >
> > > > >    This document describes how to support efficiently endpoints r=
unning
> > > > >    IGMP for the above services over an EVPN network by incorporat=
ing
> > > > >    IGMP proxy procedures on EVPN PEs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see Lars already noted the dangling reference to "above service=
s".
> > > > > That really needs to be fixed before approval, and even looking
> > > > > at the diff from -
> > > > > 12 to -13 does not give me a clear picture of what to suggest as =
a
> rewrite.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 1
> > > > >
> > > > > I strongly suggest mentioning and referencing some of the core
> > > > > technologies that readers are assumed to be familiar with (e.g.,
> > > > > RFC
> > > > > 7432 for EVPN, RFC 6514 for various tunnel types including
> > > > > Ingress
> > > Replication).
> > > > > At present the document is quite unfriendly to a reader from an
> > > > > outside field, who has little to no indication as to what
> > > > > background material is required in order to be able to make sense=
 of this
> document.
> > > > >
> > > > >    In DC applications, a point of delivery (POD) can consist of
> > > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > > Data Center is not marked as "well-known" at
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-
> > > > > editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSLlJ3XlU$
> > > > > and needs to be expanded on first use.
> > > > >
> > > > >    2.  Distributed anycast multicast proxy: it is desirable for t=
he EVPN
> > > > >        network to act as a distributed anycast multicast router
> > > > > with
> > > > >
> > > > > I honestly don't know what a "distributed anycast multicast route=
r"
> > > > > is supposed to be.  Google finds only a handful of instances of
> > > > > that
> > > > > (quoted) phrase, most of which can be traced back to this documen=
t.
> > > > > There is a similar phrase in =A74.2 that perhaps clarifies that
> > > > > the collection of EVPN PEs is intended to function as a
> > > > > distributed multicast router (that is perhaps in some sense trans=
parent to
> the CEs).
> > > > > But how does the "anycast" part come into play?  How is the
> > > > > anycast IP address assigned, and which protocol messages is it co=
nveyed
> in?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 3
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest adding SMET to the terminology listed here.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  Ethernet Segment (ES): When a customer site (device or netw=
ork) is
> > > > >       connected to one or more PEs via a set of Ethernet links.
> > > > >
> > > > > That looks like an extremely unconventional definition for
> > > > > "Ethernet
> > > Segment".
> > > > >
> > > > >    Membership Report too.  Similarly, text for IGMPv2 applies to =
MLDv1
> > > > >    and text for IGMPv3 applies to MLDv2.  IGMP / MLD version enco=
ding in
> > > > >    BGP update is stated in Section 9
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest stating explicitly that this equivalence is possible
> > > > > because the indicated versions provide analogous functionality
> > > > > for IPv4 and
> > > IPv6, respectively.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > >        is considered as a new BGP route advertisement.  When diff=
erent
> > > > >        version of IGMP join are received, final state MUST be as =
per
> > > > >        section 5.1 of [RFC3376].  At the end of route processing =
local
> > > > >        and remote group record state MUST be as per section 5.1 o=
f
> > > > >        [RFC3376].
> > > > >
> > > > > I interpret "different version of IGMP join" as "join messages
> > > > > from different IGMP protocol versions", which makes this
> > > > > reference to RFC
> > > > > 3376 make no sense to me -- the referenced section does not talk
> > > > > about multiple protocol versions at all.  Please clarify what
> > > > > behavior from RFC 3376 is being referenced.
> > > > >
> > > > >        logged.  If the v3 flag is set (in addition to v2), then t=
he IE
> > > > >        flag MUST indicate "exclude".  If not, then an error SHOUL=
D be
> > > > >        logged.  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > It's great to say that this is an error condition and should be l=
ogged.
> > > > > What does the recipient actually do while processing the message?
> > > > > An RFC 7606 named behavior would be nice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.2
> > > > >
> > > > >    As mentioned in the previous sections, each PE MUST have proxy
> > > > >    querier functionality for the following reasons:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not really sure which previous mentions this is supposed to r=
efer to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 6.2.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to confirm: the PE receiving a BGP Leave Synch route does
> > > > > *not* produce local IGMP Query messages, on the assumption that
> > > > > the PE that did receive the Leave locally has already done so?
> > > > > (I don't think this necessarily needs to be written out in the
> > > > > document itself; I just want to confirm my understanding.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 6.3
> > > > >
> > > > >    A PE which has received an IGMP Membership Request would have
> synced
> > > > >    the IGMP Join by the procedure defined in section 6.1.  If a P=
E with
> > > > >    local join state goes down or the PE to CE link goes down, it =
would
> > > > >    lead to a mass withdraw of multicast routes.  Remote PEs (PEs
> > > > > where
> > > > >
> > > > > Can we have greater clarity on "would lead to"?  Are there
> > > > > actually routes that will be withdrawn and we are just ignoring
> > > > > the consequences of that for the purposes of local state, using
> > > > > some heuristic (as mentioned later) for detecting whether a
> > > > > mass-withdraw is due to a failure at a peer?  Or is the mass
> > > > > withdraw a hypothetical scenario
> > > that the procedures described here fully avoid?
> > > > >
> > > > >    these routes were remote IGMP Joins) SHOULD NOT remove the sta=
te
> > > > >    immediately; instead General Query SHOULD be generated to refr=
esh
> the
> > > > >    states.  There are several ways to detect failure at a peer, e=
.g.
> > > > >    using IGP next hop tracking or ES route withdraw.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does each PE initiate the General Query, in this scenario?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 7
> > > > >
> > > > >    Note that to facilitate state synchronization after failover, =
the PEs
> > > > >    attached to a multihomed ES operating in Single-Active redunda=
ncy
> > > > >    mode SHOULD also coordinate IGMP Join (x,G) state.  In this
> > > > > case all
> > > > >
> > > > > What are the drawbacks of not performing such synchronization?
> > > > > Alternately, in what cases does it make sense to not perform
> > > > > synchronization (so that the guidance is SHOULD rather than MUST)=
?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1
> > > > >
> > > > > It might be nice to mention that the length fields are measured
> > > > > in bits here in this section, where the NLRI format is laid out,
> > > > > in addition to
> > > > > =A79.1.1 where the procedures for constructing it are laid out.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  If route is used for IPv6 (MLD) then bit 7 indicates suppor=
t for
> > > > >       MLD version 1.  The second least significant bit, bit 6
> > > > > indicates
> > > > >
> > > > > How does the receiver know if the route is being used for IPv6?
> > > > > (Also applies in =A79.2, 9.3)
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there any requirement for consistency about using IPv4 vs
> > > > > IPv6 addresses in all three address fields?  The description
> > > > > given here would seem to allow mixing address families, but I
> > > > > don't really expect that to
> > > work in practice.
> > > > >
> > > > >    version and any source filtering for a given group membership.=
  All
> > > > >    EVPN SMET routes are announced with per- EVI Route Target exte=
nded
> > > > >    communities.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there a good reference for discussion of these associated ECs?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1.2
> > > > >
> > > > >    PE2 to receive multicast traffic.  In this case PE2 MUST origi=
nate a
> > > > >    (*,*) SMET route to receive all of the multicast traffic in th=
e EVPN
> > > > >    domain.  To generate Wildcards (*,*) routes, the procedure fro=
m
> > > > >    [RFC6625] SHOULD be used.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the PE expected to identify this case based on protocol
> > > > > messages received at runtime (e.g., any PIM at all), or is this e=
xternal
> configuration?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.3.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    Maximum Response Time is value to be used while sending query =
as
> > > > >    defined in [RFC2236]
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it actually right to describe this as "while sending query
> > > > > [messages]"?  My understanding is that a PE receiving this route
> > > > > over BGP would in fact *not* actually send IGMP Query messages,
> > > > > but simply use the time to set a timer and potentially clear up
> > > > > state if certain conditions are met at the end of the period in q=
uestion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 10
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to confirm my understanding here: in the immediate leave
> > > > > case, the Leave Synch route will be advertised just for the
> > > > > "delta" period of time described in
> > > > > =A76.2 and then withdrawn?
> > > > >
> > > > >    IGMP MAY be configured with immediate leave option.  This
> > > > > allows the
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there a suitable reference for "immediate leave"?  I did not
> > > > > see much relevant in RFCs 2236 and 3376.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 12
> > > > >
> > > > > I support Roman's point about detailing which aspects are
> > > > > covered in which referenced RFCs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also noted that the "delta" value used in the Last Member
> > > > > Query process must be configured on each node, and to the same va=
lue.
> > > > > Such requirement for identical configuration opens up the chance
> > > > > for skew, and sometimes any such skew is security-relevant and
> > > > > must be documented in the security considerations.  However, I'm
> > > > > not sure that that's the case, here, as it seems that skew would
> > > > > mostly only serve to cause a brief "blip" where a PE drops its
> > > > > group state only to recreate it when a report shows up later.
> > > > > Is there a scenario where the skew goes the other way, and a PE
> > > > > leaves group state in place
> > > indefinitely that should have been dropped?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 16.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Since we only reference RFC 4684 to say that its procedures are
> > > > > not applicable to what we describe, it seems like it could be
> > > > > classified as only an informative reference.
> > > > >
> > > > > NITS
> > > > >
> > > > > We seem quite inconsistent about whether we write "BCP Leave
> > > > > Synch route" or "IGMP Leave Synch route" (but I believe these
> > > > > are both supposed to be the same thing).
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 1
> > > > >
> > > > >    communication and orchestration.  However, EVPN is used as sta=
ndard
> > > > >    way of inter-POD communication for both intra-DC and
> > > > > inter-DC.  A
> > > > >
> > > > > intra-DC and inter-DC are both adjectives that need to modify som=
e
> noun.
> > > > > Please supply such a noun (e.g., "traffic").
> > > > >
> > > > >    These hosts express their interests in multicast groups on a g=
iven
> > > > >    subnet/VLAN by sending IGMP Membership Reports (Joins) for the=
ir
> > > > >    interested multicast group(s).  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that this phrase "IGMP Membership Reports (Joins)" is
> > > > > intended to serve some cross-protocol clarification role (e.g.,
> > > > > "Join" is used by
> > > > > IGMPv3 and MLD but not IGMPv2).  Since this is the first place
> > > > > where we use that formulation, some additional text to clarify
> > > > > the shorthand seems
> > > in order.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 3
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  BD: Broadcast Domain.  As per [RFC7432], an EVI consists of=
 a
> > > > >       single or multiple BDs.  In case of VLAN-bundle and
> > > > > VLAN-aware
> > > > >
> > > > > RFC 7432 spells "VLAN Bundle" with no hyphen.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  Single-Active Redundancy Mode: When only a single PE, among=
 all
> > > > >       the PEs attached to an Ethernet segment, is allowed to forw=
ard
> > > > >       traffic to/from that Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, the=
n the
> > > > >       Ethernet segment is defined to be operating in Single-Activ=
e
> > > > >       redundancy mode.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  All-Active Redundancy Mode: When all PEs attached to an Eth=
ernet
> > > > >       segment are allowed to forward known unicast traffic to/fro=
m that
> > > > >       Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, then the Ethernet segmen=
t is
> > > > >       defined to be operating in All-Active redundancy mode.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it important that the second definition only covers "unicast t=
raffic"
> > > > > but the former uses the unqualified term "traffic"?
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  OIF: Outgoing Interface for multicast.  It can be physical
> > > > >       interface, virtual interface or tunnel.
> > > > >
> > > > > s/physical/a physical/
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4
> > > > >
> > > > >    The IGMP Proxy mechanism is used to reduce the flooding of IGM=
P
> > > > >    messages over an EVPN network similar to ARP proxy used in
> > > > > reducing
> > > > >
> > > > > "similarly to how ARP proxy is used"
> > > > >
> > > > >    speakers.  The information is again translated back to IGMP me=
ssage
> > > > >    at the recipient EVPN speaker.  Thus it helps create an IGMP
> > > > > overlay
> > > > >
> > > > > "IGMP messages" plural, to match the previous sentence.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    1.  When the first hop PE receives several IGMP Membership Rep=
orts
> > > > >        (Joins), belonging to the same IGMP version, from differen=
t
> > > > >        attached hosts for the same (*,G) or (S,G), it SHOULD send=
 a
> > > > >        single BGP message corresponding to the very first IGMP
> > > > >        Membership Request (BGP update as soon as possible) for th=
at
> > > > >        (*,G) or (S,G).  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > What is an "IGMP Membership Request"?  Is this just a typo for Re=
port?
> > > > >
> > > > >                         This is because BGP is a stateful protoco=
l and
> > > > >        no further transmission of the same report is needed.  If =
the
> > > > >        IGMP Membership Request is for (*,G), then multicast group
> > > > >        address MUST be sent along with the corresponding version =
flag
> > > > >        (v2 or v3) set.  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > (ditto)
> > > > >
> > > > >                                    If the IGMP Join is for (S,G),=
 then
> > > > >        besides setting multicast group address along with the ver=
sion
> > > > >        flag v3, the source IP address and the IE flag MUST be set

--_000_BY3PR05MB808147F0542140840F9CB093C7309BY3PR05MB8081namp_
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Hi,


 


Here are my proposed changes:


 


8.  Selective Multi=
cast Procedures for IR tunnels


 


   If an ingress PE uses ingress replicati=
on, then for a given (x,G)


   group in a given BD:


 


   1.  It sends (x,G) traffic to the =
set of PEs not supporting IGMP


       Proxy.  Th=
is set consists of any PE that has advertised an


       Inclusive Multi=
cast Tag route for the BD without the "IGMP Proxy


       Support" f=
lag.


 


*****JD  This set consists of any PE that has a=
dvertised an IMET route for the BD



without a  Multicast Flags extended community o=
r with a Multicast Flags extended



community in which neither the IGMP Proxy support no=
r the  MLD Proxy support


flags are set.


 


   2.  It sends (x,G) traffic to the =
set of PEs supporting IGMP Proxy


       and having list=
eners for that (x,G) group in that BD.  This set


       consists of any=
 PE that has advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag


       route for the B=
D with the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag and that has


       advertised a SM=
ET route for that (x,G) group in that BD.


 


*****JD  This set consists of any PE that has a=
dvertised an IMET route for the BD



with a Multicast Flags extended community in which t=
he IGMP Proxy support and/or


the  MLD Proxy support flags are set and that h=
as advertised a SMET route for that (x,G)


group in that BD.


 


   If an ingress PE's Selective P-Tunnel f=
or a given BD uses P2MP and


   all of the PEs in the BD support that t=
unnel type and IGMP proxy,


 


*****JD and IGMP and/or MLD proxy,


 


   then for a given (x,G) group in a given=
 BD it sends (x,G) traffic


   using the Selective P-Tunnel for that (=
x,G) group in that BD.  This


   tunnel includes those PEs that have adv=
ertised a SMET route for that


   (x,G) group on that BD (for Selective P=
-tunnel) but it may include


   other PEs as well (for Aggregate Select=
ive P-tunnel).


 


9.4.  Multicast F=
lags Extended Community


 


   The 'Multicast Flags' extended communit=
y is a new EVPN extended


   community.  EVPN extended communit=
ies are transitive extended


   communities with a Type field value of =
6.  IANA will assign a Sub-


   Type from the 'EVPN Extended Community =
Sub-Types' registry.


 


   A PE that supports IGMP proxy on a give=
n BD MUST attach this extended


   community to the Inclusive Multicast Et=
hernet Tag (IMET) route it


   advertises for that BD and it MUST set =
the IGMP Proxy Support flag to


   1.  Note that an [RFC7432] compliant PE will not advertise this


   extended community so its absence indic=
ates that the advertising PE


   does not support IGMP Proxy.=



 


*****JD     A PE that supports I=
GMP and/or MLD Proxy on a given BD


MUST attach this extended community to the IMET rout=
e it advertises


advertises for that BD and it MUST set the IGMP and/=
or MLD Proxy


Support flags to 1.  Note that an [RFC7432] compliant PE will not advertise this=



extended community so its absence indicates that the=
 advertising PE


does not support either IGMP or MLD Proxy.


 


 




Yours Irrespectively,


 


John




 


 



Juniper Business Use Only








From: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <mankami=
s@cisco.com>


Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 11:02 AM

To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; Benjamin Kaduk <kadu=
k@mit.edu>

Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pr=
oxy@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com<=
br>
Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-m=
ld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






 


<=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]


 




Hi Ben, 


Making the changes as you suggested. Attached diff w=
hich I would be pushing today.



 


One question 


 


> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy=
 Support" flag, but we actually have

> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support&qu=
ot; flags.


 


Does IGMP or MLD Proxy Support not mean that either =
of them can be set / unset. Any thing specific you want to be added here ?



 


Mankamana 


 




From:
John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>

Date: Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:17 AM

To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.ed=
u>

Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org&=
gt;, 
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pro=
xy@ietf.org>,
bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>,
bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>,
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <=
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com><=
br>
Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-m=
ld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






Ben,



Comments inline below.



Yours Irrespectively,



John





Juniper Business Use Only



> -----Original Message-----

> From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.ed=
u>

> Sent: Friday, February 4, 2022 8:09 PM

> To: John E Drake <jdrake@juni=
per.net>

> Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>=
;; 
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;

> bess-chairs@ietf.org; 
bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf=
@gmail.com

> Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld=
-proxy-

> 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> 

> [External Email. Be cautious of content]

> 

> 

> Hi John,

> 

> My apologies for taking a few weeks to reply; I was sick when this cam=
e in and a

> bunch of stuff piled up, which has taken some time to get back to.

> I can only take a small amount of solace by noting that at least this =
is not the

> last DISCUSS blocking the document from approval.

> 

> Inline...

> 

> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 03:28:11PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:

> >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: Benjamin Kaduk <ka=
duk@mit.edu>

> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 10:08 PM

> > > To: John E Drake <j=
drake@juniper.net>

> > > Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.=
org>;

> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;

> > > bess-chairs@ietf.org=
; 
bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf=
@gmail.com

> > > Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on

> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-

> > > 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> > >

> > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi John,

> > >

> > > Thanks for helping clarify.  Also inline.

> > >

> > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 06:35:43PM +0000, John E Drake wrote=
:

> > > > Ben,

> > > >

> > > > Comments inline.

> > > >

> > > > Yours Irrespectively,

> > > >

> > > > John

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Juniper Business Use Only

> > > >

> > > > > -----Original Message-----

> > > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>

> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 8:49 PM

> > > > > To: The IESG <=
iesg@ietf.org>

> > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;

> > > > > bess-chair=
s@ietf.org; 
bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf=
@gmail.com

> > > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on

> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-

> > > 13:

> > > > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> > > > >

> > > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot po=
sition for

> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: Discuss
> > > > >

> > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line inta=
ct and reply

> > > > > to all email addresses included in the To and CC l=
ines. (Feel

> > > > > free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)=


> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Please refer to

> > > > > 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-i

> > > > > esg-

> > > > > ballot-

> > > > > positions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-

> > > > >

> > >

> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSRrxQJ1U$
> > > > > for more information about how to handle DISCUSS a=
nd COMMENT

> > > positions.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, c=
an be found here:

> > > > > 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra

> > > > > ft-i

> > > > > etf-bess-

> > > > > evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/__;!!NEt6yMaO-

> > > > >

> > >

> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSbOB2k3E$
> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > > DISCUSS:

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > (1) Apparently each PE is supposed to store versio=
n flags for

> > > > > each other PE in the EVI (I guess on a per-route b=
asis?), but

> > > > > this is mentioned just once, in passing, in step 2=
 of the Leave

> > > > > Group procedures in

> > > =A74.1.2.

> > > >

> > > > [JD]  The first hop PE keeps track of which IGMP o=
r MLD versions

> > > > are active on

> > > the ESes to which it is attached and announces this via the =
BGP SMET route.

> > >

> > > Yes.  Should this statement (or something like it) be i=
n the document itself?

> > > (Where?)

> >

> > [JD] Would you please review sections 4 and 5 of the -16

> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/draft-ietf-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_GYAo7RM$ ,

> 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iet=
f-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-5__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_8b_wkkE$ ) and see if they are=
 is

> clear enough?

> 

> You ask if they are "clear enough?"  The changes to cla=
rify which steps are done

> by which PEs are quite helpful, and thank you for that.  But they=
 are not really

> addressing the issue that was bothering me.  Nevertheless, in lig=
ht of this discuss

> point being raised in order to have a conversation, I guess they are c=
lear

> *enough*, but just barely, and there's plenty of room to make them mor=
e clear.

> 

> In short, what bothers me here is that we say something like "com=
pare ...

> with its per-PE stored version flags", but we never concretely sa=
y "store some

> per-PE version flags" anywhere.  Now, this is BGP, so of cou=
rse you're storing

> what you got and from whom, but writing it in the way it's currently s=
tated

> makes the reader work pretty hard to figure out what's going on. =
 If we said

> something like (with the caveat that I am surely using the wrong termi=
nology)

> "compare ... with the version flags from the corresponding saved =
EVPN SMET

> route in the BGP session with this PE", that would be very clear =
about what was

> saved and why.

> 

> We could also go further and talk about the information model concrete=
ly, a la:

> 

> % The goal of IGMP and MLD proxying is to make the EVPN behave seamles=
sly

> for % the tenant systems with respect to multicast operations, while u=
sing a

> more % efficient delivery system for signaling and delivery across the=
 VPN.

> % Accordingly, group state must be tracked synchronously among the PEs=
 %

> serving the VPN, with join and leave events propagated to the peer PEs=
, and %

> each PE tracking the state of each of its peer PEs with respect whethe=
r % there

> are locally attached group members (and in some cases, senders), what =
%

> version(s) of IGMP/MLD are in use for those locally attached group mem=
bers, %

> etc.  In order to perform this translation, each PE acts as an IG=
MP router % for

> the locally attached domain, and maintains the requisite state on % lo=
cally

> attached nodes, sends periodic membership queries, etc.  The role=
 % of EVPN

> SMET route propagation is to ensure that each PE's local state is % pr=
opagated

> to the other PEs so that they share a consistent view of the % overall=
 IGMP

> Membership Request and Leave Group state.  It is important to % n=
ote that the

> need to keep such local state can be triggered by either % local IGMP =
traffic or

> BGP EVPN signaling.  In most cases a local IGMP event % will need=
 to be signaled

> over EVPN, though state initiated by received EVPN % traffic will not =
always

> need to be relayed to the locally attached domain.



[JD]  We can add this text to section 4. 

> 

> > >

> > > > > Similarly, =A76.1 defines, somewhat in passing, so=
me "local IGMP

> > > > > Membership Request (x,G) state" that must be =
maintained in some cases.

> > > > > Let's discuss whether it's appropriate/useful to h=
ave a general

> > > > > introductory section that covers what new state PE=
s are expected

> > > > > to retain as part of supporting IGMP/MLD proxying.=
  Maybe the

> > > > > answer is "no", but I would like to have=
 the conversation.

> > > >

> > > > [JD]  Section 6 generalizes the notion of a first =
hop PE to be the

> > > > set of multi-

> > > homed PEs attached to a given ES.  Section 6

> > > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/d

> > > raft-ietf-

> > > bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-

> > > gk!WAMtLTp8pHMhjeyfDY13FOVPAqTuQaEqcCu8hQOf-

> > > GMscsBgaRFDzERgy6ZEfS8$ ) explains why the multi-homed PEs n=
eed to

> > > synchronize state and section 6.1 explains what is that stat=
e:

> > >

> > > Rereading it, it does explain the need for state synchroniza=
tion;

> > > thanks for pointing that out.  However, it does not app=
ear to use or

> > > introduce the specific term that the subsequent subsections =
are

> > > using to refer to that state.  It seems like it could b=
e useful to

> > > have a defined term for this state, to help readers make the=


> > > connection between the need to track the state and where tha=
t state is

> referenced in the subsequent procedures.

> > >

> > > >  If the PE doesn't already have local IGMP Members=
hip Request

> > > > (x,G) state for

> > > that BD on that ES, it MUST instantiate local IGMP Membershi=
p

> > > Request (x,G) state and MUST advertise a BGP IGMP Join Synch=
 route

> > > for that (ES,BD).  Local IGMP Membership Request (x,G) =
state refers

> > > to IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state that is created as a =
result

> > > of processing an IGMP Membership Report for (x,G).

> > > >

> > > > i.e., IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state is the union =
of the

> > > > local IGMP Join

> > > (x,G) state and the installed IGMP Join Synch route.

> > >

> > > This would be a great start to a definition for such a defin=
ed term

> > > that I propose above.

> >

> > [JD]  Would you please review section 6 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/draft-ietf-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_dTYpjPA$ ) and see if it is cl=
ear

> enough?

> 

> Even if you don't want to use the "concrete information model&quo=
t; approach I

> outline above, I think this text would be much clearer with the follow=
ing change

> in =A76:

> 

> OLD:

>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coord=
inate IGMP

>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, wher=
e x may be either

>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES=
. [...]

> 

> NEW:

>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coord=
inate IGMP

>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, wher=
e x may be either

>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES=
.  Each PE has a

>    local copy of that state, and the EVPN signaling ser=
ves to synchronize

>    state across PEs.



[JD]  This is fine. 



> 

> But is it "clear enough" as-is?  Again, just barely, an=
d I will demote this topic to a

> COMMENT-level remark.

> 

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > (2) I am not sure if the body text is consistent w=
ith what is

> > > > > being allocated from IANA.  =A78 describes PE=
s that are not using

> > > > > ingress replication as being identifiable as "=
;""any PE that has

> > > > > advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag route for th=
e BD without

> > > > > the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag""=
;", but the IANA considerations

> > > > > allocate flags for both IGMP Proxy Support and MLD=
 Proxy

> > > > > Support.  Is a PE that advertises MLD Proxy S=
upport but not IGMP

> > > > > Proxy Support to be treated as

> > > not using ingress replication, as the literal interpretation=
 of this

> > > text would require?

> > > > > Similarly, =A79.2.1 and =A79.3.1 include restricti=
ons on indication

> > > > > of support for "IGMP Proxy" with no ment=
ion of "MLD Proxy".

> > > >

> > > > [JD]  It should be either IGMP or MLD Proxy Suppor=
t

> > >

> > > Yes.  Hopefully this is easy to insert into the documen=
t itself.

> >

> > [JD]  Would you please review sections 8 and 9.4 of the -16 =
version

> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/draft-ietf-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-8__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_U63FOVo$ , and

> 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iet=
f-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-9.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-

> gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_QXUa-Og$ )<=
br>
> and see if they are is clear enough?

> 

> I think they are still problematic in this regard.

> 

> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, bu=
t we actually have

> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support&qu=
ot; flags.

[

JD]  We will fix this. 



> 

> The =A79.2.1 and 9.3.1 text still has discussion relating to "ind=
icate that it

> supports" proxying of one or the other multicast protocols, and =
=A79.4 has a

> paragraph that I paraphrase as "if it supports IGMP proxy, it MUS=
T set the IGMP

> proxy flag to 1".  But the disclaimer in =A73 is specificall=
y worded to only cover

> "IGMP Membership Report" as including MLD Membership Report,=
 and to have

> version genericity within IGMP and within MLD.  Being specific to=
 the

> Membership Report in this way means that it does *not* come into effec=
t for

> discussions of "support for IGMP proxy" or "support for=
 MLD proxy", which is

> what seems problematic to me, here.

> 

> It seems like it ought to be pretty straightforward to craft some text=
 that

> expands the disclaimer in =A73 to cover things like "Likewise, wh=
en there is text

> considering whether a PE indicates support for IGMP proxying, the

> corresponding behavior has a natural analogue for indication of suppor=
t for

> MLD proxying, and the analogous requirements apply as well".



[JD]  We will add this. 



> 

> -Ben

> 

> > >

> > > Thanks again,

> > >

> > > Ben

> > >

> > > > > I do see that there is a generic disclaimer at the=
 end of

> > > > > Section 3 but the way it is written does not actua=
lly seem to cover this

> usage.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > > COMMENT:

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > As one of the directorate reviewers noted (and =C9=
ric promoted to

> > > > > a DISCUSS), this document does not really give any=
 specific

> > > > > description of how an EVPN PE should construct out=
going IGMP/MLD

> > > > > messages to send out on its ACs as a result of rec=
eiving EVP

> > > > > information over BGP.  From a brief examinati=
on of the relevant

> > > > > IGMP messages, it seems that the EVPN messages mig=
ht actually

> > > > > contain information to populate literally all the =
IGMP fields,

> > > > > but this is probably worth mentioning explicitly.&=
nbsp; In

> > > > > particular, guidance might be interesting for

> > > > > (e.g.) IGMPv3, that lets multiple Group Records be=
 included in a

> > > > > single Membership Report.

> > > > > (Pedantically, such IGMPv3 multiplexing might also=
 require

> > > > > phrasing changes for the reverse process, taking I=
GMP and

> > > > > constructing EVPN routes, since we refer to (e.g) =
"the Group

> > > > > address of the IGMP Membership Report" in pla=
ces, and that is

> > > > > not a well-defined concept in the absence of some =
text

> > > > > indicating group-by- group processing.)

> > > > >

> > > > > Abstract

> > > > >

> > > > >    This document describes how to s=
upport efficiently endpoints running

> > > > >    IGMP for the above services over=
 an EVPN network by incorporating

> > > > >    IGMP proxy procedures on EVPN PE=
s.

> > > > >

> > > > > I see Lars already noted the dangling reference to=
 "above services".

> > > > > That really needs to be fixed before approval, and=
 even looking

> > > > > at the diff from -

> > > > > 12 to -13 does not give me a clear picture of what=
 to suggest as a

> rewrite.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 1

> > > > >

> > > > > I strongly suggest mentioning and referencing some=
 of the core

> > > > > technologies that readers are assumed to be famili=
ar with (e.g.,

> > > > > RFC

> > > > > 7432 for EVPN, RFC 6514 for various tunnel types i=
ncluding

> > > > > Ingress

> > > Replication).

> > > > > At present the document is quite unfriendly to a r=
eader from an

> > > > > outside field, who has little to no indication as =
to what

> > > > > background material is required in order to be abl=
e to make sense of this

> document.

> > > > >

> > > > >    In DC applications, a point of d=
elivery (POD) can consist of

> > > > > a

> > > > >

> > > > > Data Center is not marked as "well-known"=
; at

> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-

> > > > > editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt__;!!NEt6=
yMaO-

> > > > >

> > >

> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSLlJ3XlU$
> > > > > and needs to be expanded on first use.

> > > > >

> > > > >    2.  Distributed anycast mul=
ticast proxy: it is desirable for the EVPN

> > > > >        network =
to act as a distributed anycast multicast router

> > > > > with

> > > > >

> > > > > I honestly don't know what a "distributed any=
cast multicast router"

> > > > > is supposed to be.  Google finds only a handf=
ul of instances of

> > > > > that

> > > > > (quoted) phrase, most of which can be traced back =
to this document.

> > > > > There is a similar phrase in =A74.2 that perhaps c=
larifies that

> > > > > the collection of EVPN PEs is intended to function=
 as a

> > > > > distributed multicast router (that is perhaps in s=
ome sense transparent to

> the CEs).

> > > > > But how does the "anycast" part come int=
o play?  How is the

> > > > > anycast IP address assigned, and which protocol me=
ssages is it conveyed

> in?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 3

> > > > >

> > > > > I suggest adding SMET to the terminology listed he=
re.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  Ethernet Segment (ES): W=
hen a customer site (device or network) is

> > > > >       connected to o=
ne or more PEs via a set of Ethernet links.

> > > > >

> > > > > That looks like an extremely unconventional defini=
tion for

> > > > > "Ethernet

> > > Segment".

> > > > >

> > > > >    Membership Report too.  Sim=
ilarly, text for IGMPv2 applies to MLDv1

> > > > >    and text for IGMPv3 applies to M=
LDv2.  IGMP / MLD version encoding in

> > > > >    BGP update is stated in Section =
9

> > > > >

> > > > > I suggest stating explicitly that this equivalence=
 is possible

> > > > > because the indicated versions provide analogous f=
unctionality

> > > > > for IPv4 and

> > > IPv6, respectively.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4.1.1

> > > > >

> > > > >        is consi=
dered as a new BGP route advertisement.  When different

> > > > >        version =
of IGMP join are received, final state MUST be as per

> > > > >        section =
5.1 of [RFC3376].  At the end of route processing local

> > > > >        and remo=
te group record state MUST be as per section 5.1 of

> > > > >        [RFC3376=
].

> > > > >

> > > > > I interpret "different version of IGMP join&q=
uot; as "join messages

> > > > > from different IGMP protocol versions", which=
 makes this

> > > > > reference to RFC

> > > > > 3376 make no sense to me -- the referenced section=
 does not talk

> > > > > about multiple protocol versions at all.  Ple=
ase clarify what

> > > > > behavior from RFC 3376 is being referenced.

> > > > >

> > > > >        logged.&=
nbsp; If the v3 flag is set (in addition to v2), then the IE

> > > > >        flag MUS=
T indicate "exclude".  If not, then an error SHOULD be

> > > > >        logged.&=
nbsp; [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > It's great to say that this is an error condition =
and should be logged.

> > > > > What does the recipient actually do while processi=
ng the message?

> > > > > An RFC 7606 named behavior would be nice.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4.2

> > > > >

> > > > >    As mentioned in the previous sec=
tions, each PE MUST have proxy

> > > > >    querier functionality for the fo=
llowing reasons:

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not really sure which previous mentions this i=
s supposed to refer to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 6.2.1

> > > > >

> > > > > Just to confirm: the PE receiving a BGP Leave Sync=
h route does

> > > > > *not* produce local IGMP Query messages, on the as=
sumption that

> > > > > the PE that did receive the Leave locally has alre=
ady done so?

> > > > > (I don't think this necessarily needs to be writte=
n out in the

> > > > > document itself; I just want to confirm my underst=
anding.)

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 6.3

> > > > >

> > > > >    A PE which has received an IGMP =
Membership Request would have

> synced

> > > > >    the IGMP Join by the procedure d=
efined in section 6.1.  If a PE with

> > > > >    local join state goes down or th=
e PE to CE link goes down, it would

> > > > >    lead to a mass withdraw of multi=
cast routes.  Remote PEs (PEs

> > > > > where

> > > > >

> > > > > Can we have greater clarity on "would lead to=
"?  Are there

> > > > > actually routes that will be withdrawn and we are =
just ignoring

> > > > > the consequences of that for the purposes of local=
 state, using

> > > > > some heuristic (as mentioned later) for detecting =
whether a

> > > > > mass-withdraw is due to a failure at a peer? =
 Or is the mass

> > > > > withdraw a hypothetical scenario

> > > that the procedures described here fully avoid?

> > > > >

> > > > >    these routes were remote IGMP Jo=
ins) SHOULD NOT remove the state

> > > > >    immediately; instead General Que=
ry SHOULD be generated to refresh

> the

> > > > >    states.  There are several =
ways to detect failure at a peer, e.g.

> > > > >    using IGP next hop tracking or E=
S route withdraw.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does each PE initiate the General Query, in this s=
cenario?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 7

> > > > >

> > > > >    Note that to facilitate state sy=
nchronization after failover, the PEs

> > > > >    attached to a multihomed ES oper=
ating in Single-Active redundancy

> > > > >    mode SHOULD also coordinate IGMP=
 Join (x,G) state.  In this

> > > > > case all

> > > > >

> > > > > What are the drawbacks of not performing such sync=
hronization?

> > > > > Alternately, in what cases does it make sense to n=
ot perform

> > > > > synchronization (so that the guidance is SHOULD ra=
ther than MUST)?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.1

> > > > >

> > > > > It might be nice to mention that the length fields=
 are measured

> > > > > in bits here in this section, where the NLRI forma=
t is laid out,

> > > > > in addition to

> > > > > =A79.1.1 where the procedures for constructing it =
are laid out.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  If route is used for IPv=
6 (MLD) then bit 7 indicates support for

> > > > >       MLD version 1.=
  The second least significant bit, bit 6

> > > > > indicates

> > > > >

> > > > > How does the receiver know if the route is being u=
sed for IPv6?

> > > > > (Also applies in =A79.2, 9.3)

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.1.1

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there any requirement for consistency about usi=
ng IPv4 vs

> > > > > IPv6 addresses in all three address fields?  =
The description

> > > > > given here would seem to allow mixing address fami=
lies, but I

> > > > > don't really expect that to

> > > work in practice.

> > > > >

> > > > >    version and any source filtering=
 for a given group membership.  All

> > > > >    EVPN SMET routes are announced w=
ith per- EVI Route Target extended

> > > > >    communities.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there a good reference for discussion of these =
associated ECs?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.1.2

> > > > >

> > > > >    PE2 to receive multicast traffic=
.  In this case PE2 MUST originate a

> > > > >    (*,*) SMET route to receive all =
of the multicast traffic in the EVPN

> > > > >    domain.  To generate Wildca=
rds (*,*) routes, the procedure from

> > > > >    [RFC6625] SHOULD be used.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is the PE expected to identify this case based on =
protocol

> > > > > messages received at runtime (e.g., any PIM at all=
), or is this external

> configuration?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.3.1

> > > > >

> > > > >    Maximum Response Time is value t=
o be used while sending query as

> > > > >    defined in [RFC2236]

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it actually right to describe this as "whi=
le sending query

> > > > > [messages]"?  My understanding is that a=
 PE receiving this route

> > > > > over BGP would in fact *not* actually send IGMP Qu=
ery messages,

> > > > > but simply use the time to set a timer and potenti=
ally clear up

> > > > > state if certain conditions are met at the end of =
the period in question.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 10

> > > > >

> > > > > Just to confirm my understanding here: in the imme=
diate leave

> > > > > case, the Leave Synch route will be advertised jus=
t for the

> > > > > "delta" period of time described in

> > > > > =A76.2 and then withdrawn?

> > > > >

> > > > >    IGMP MAY be configured with imme=
diate leave option.  This

> > > > > allows the

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there a suitable reference for "immediate =
leave"?  I did not

> > > > > see much relevant in RFCs 2236 and 3376.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 12

> > > > >

> > > > > I support Roman's point about detailing which aspe=
cts are

> > > > > covered in which referenced RFCs.

> > > > >

> > > > > I also noted that the "delta" value used=
 in the Last Member

> > > > > Query process must be configured on each node, and=
 to the same value.

> > > > > Such requirement for identical configuration opens=
 up the chance

> > > > > for skew, and sometimes any such skew is security-=
relevant and

> > > > > must be documented in the security considerations.=
  However, I'm

> > > > > not sure that that's the case, here, as it seems t=
hat skew would

> > > > > mostly only serve to cause a brief "blip"=
; where a PE drops its

> > > > > group state only to recreate it when a report show=
s up later.

> > > > > Is there a scenario where the skew goes the other =
way, and a PE

> > > > > leaves group state in place

> > > indefinitely that should have been dropped?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 16.1

> > > > >

> > > > > Since we only reference RFC 4684 to say that its p=
rocedures are

> > > > > not applicable to what we describe, it seems like =
it could be

> > > > > classified as only an informative reference.

> > > > >

> > > > > NITS

> > > > >

> > > > > We seem quite inconsistent about whether we write =
"BCP Leave

> > > > > Synch route" or "IGMP Leave Synch route&=
quot; (but I believe these

> > > > > are both supposed to be the same thing).

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 1

> > > > >

> > > > >    communication and orchestration.=
  However, EVPN is used as standard

> > > > >    way of inter-POD communication f=
or both intra-DC and

> > > > > inter-DC.  A

> > > > >

> > > > > intra-DC and inter-DC are both adjectives that nee=
d to modify some

> noun.

> > > > > Please supply such a noun (e.g., "traffic&quo=
t;).

> > > > >

> > > > >    These hosts express their intere=
sts in multicast groups on a given

> > > > >    subnet/VLAN by sending IGMP Memb=
ership Reports (Joins) for their

> > > > >    interested multicast group(s).&n=
bsp; [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > I think that this phrase "IGMP Membership Rep=
orts (Joins)" is

> > > > > intended to serve some cross-protocol clarificatio=
n role (e.g.,

> > > > > "Join" is used by

> > > > > IGMPv3 and MLD but not IGMPv2).  Since this i=
s the first place

> > > > > where we use that formulation, some additional tex=
t to clarify

> > > > > the shorthand seems

> > > in order.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 3

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  BD: Broadcast Domain.&nb=
sp; As per [RFC7432], an EVI consists of a

> > > > >       single or mult=
iple BDs.  In case of VLAN-bundle and

> > > > > VLAN-aware

> > > > >

> > > > > RFC 7432 spells "VLAN Bundle" with no hy=
phen.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  Single-Active Redundancy=
 Mode: When only a single PE, among all

> > > > >       the PEs attach=
ed to an Ethernet segment, is allowed to forward

> > > > >       traffic to/fro=
m that Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, then the

> > > > >       Ethernet segme=
nt is defined to be operating in Single-Active

> > > > >       redundancy mod=
e.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  All-Active Redundancy Mo=
de: When all PEs attached to an Ethernet

> > > > >       segment are al=
lowed to forward known unicast traffic to/from that

> > > > >       Ethernet segme=
nt for a given VLAN, then the Ethernet segment is

> > > > >       defined to be =
operating in All-Active redundancy mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it important that the second definition only co=
vers "unicast traffic"

> > > > > but the former uses the unqualified term "tra=
ffic"?

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  OIF: Outgoing Interface =
for multicast.  It can be physical

> > > > >       interface, vir=
tual interface or tunnel.

> > > > >

> > > > > s/physical/a physical/

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4

> > > > >

> > > > >    The IGMP Proxy mechanism is used=
 to reduce the flooding of IGMP

> > > > >    messages over an EVPN network si=
milar to ARP proxy used in

> > > > > reducing

> > > > >

> > > > > "similarly to how ARP proxy is used"

> > > > >

> > > > >    speakers.  The information =
is again translated back to IGMP message

> > > > >    at the recipient EVPN speaker.&n=
bsp; Thus it helps create an IGMP

> > > > > overlay

> > > > >

> > > > > "IGMP messages" plural, to match the pre=
vious sentence.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4.1.1

> > > > >

> > > > >    1.  When the first hop PE r=
eceives several IGMP Membership Reports

> > > > >        (Joins),=
 belonging to the same IGMP version, from different

> > > > >        attached=
 hosts for the same (*,G) or (S,G), it SHOULD send a

> > > > >        single B=
GP message corresponding to the very first IGMP

> > > > >        Membersh=
ip Request (BGP update as soon as possible) for that

> > > > >        (*,G) or=
 (S,G).  [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > What is an "IGMP Membership Request"?&nb=
sp; Is this just a typo for Report?

> > > > >

> > > > >        &nb=
sp;            =
    This is because BGP is a stateful protocol and

> > > > >        no furth=
er transmission of the same report is needed.  If the

> > > > >        IGMP Mem=
bership Request is for (*,G), then multicast group

> > > > >        address =
MUST be sent along with the corresponding version flag

> > > > >        (v2 or v=
3) set.  [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > (ditto)

> > > > >

> > > > >        &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;  If the IGMP Join is for (S,G), then

> > > > >        besides =
setting multicast group address along with the version

> > > > >        flag v3,=
 the source IP address and the IE flag MUST be set












--_000_BY3PR05MB808147F0542140840F9CB093C7309BY3PR05MB8081namp_--


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Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss

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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE routers
using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within a
single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that the BGP
service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sessions
are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to (from
RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST NOT be
leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."

However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID’s
contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available to
the public into perpetuity.

While the document states that border filtering should protect against traffic
injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there is
the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets are
off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic
into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to
include the customer's networks too.

Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they have
to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any border
node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and machine
within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply saying
that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occur, when
the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seems to
not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a missing
ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot in, so
that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand how
this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.




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Hi Warren,

Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start discussing it perhaps it
would be good to align on what this document really defines as I am sensing
from your description there can be some disconnect (modulo some text may be
indeed misleading in the draft).

You said:

> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
available to
> the public into perpetuity.

I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.

Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines
extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not used to peer outside of
a domain, collection of domains under same administration +
of course inter-as also could happen.

With that being said I do not see risk that due to leaking there could be a
situation where customer networks are exposed in any way externally -
leaving alone that to even get at the transport level to the customer
facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from outside. But this is out
of scope of this document as here the focus is not on underlay but overlay.

Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little piece perhaps
misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 which
defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other co-authors believe
this is applicable to the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be
valid.

Many thx,
R.




On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE
> routers
> using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
> trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes
> within a
> single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that the
> BGP
> service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP
> sessions
> are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to
> (from
> RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST
> NOT be
> leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."
>
> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
> available to
> the public into perpetuity.
>
> While the document states that border filtering should protect against
> traffic
> injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure,
> there is
> the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bet=
s
> are
> off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traff=
ic
> into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface t=
o
> include the customer's networks too.
>
> Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they
> have
> to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any
> border
> node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and
> machine
> within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply
> saying
> that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occur=
,
> when
> the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from
> seems to
> not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a
> missing
> ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot in,
> so
> that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my
> understand how
> this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
>
>
>
>

--000000000000523d3505d7d57bdc
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi Warren,

Thank you for your Discuss. =
But before we start discussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what=
 this document really defines as I am sensing from your description there c=
an be some disconnect (modulo some text may be indeed=C2=A0misleading in th=
e draft).=C2=A0

You said:=C2=A0

> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do,=
 the SID=E2=80=99s
> contained in the leak will be logged by various =
systems and hence available to
> the public into perpetuity.

I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.=
=C2=A0

Leaks do happen but only within global=C2=
=A0AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs whic=
h are not used to peer outside of a domain, collection of domains under sam=
e administration + of=C2=A0course=C2=A0inter-as also could happen.=C2=A0

With that=C2=A0being said I do not see risk that due=
 to leaking there could be a situation where customer networks are exposed =
in any way externally - leaving alone that to even get at the=C2=A0transpor=
t level to the customer facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from o=
utside. But this is out of scope of this document as here the focus is not =
on underlay but overlay.=C2=A0

Now when I re-read =
this I see why there is a little piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes =
a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6 with bot=
h unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made clear that it is applicable to=
 the latter only. If other co-authors believe this is applicable=C2=A0to th=
e former your DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.=C2=A0

Many thx,
R.



On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <<=
a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Warren Kumari has entere=
d the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/h=
andling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-bess-srv6-services/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between P=
E routers

using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within=
 a

single provider network).=C2=A0 Precaution should be taken to ensure that t=
he BGP

service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sess=
ions

are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related t=
o (from

RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUS=
T NOT be

leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."



However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=E2=
=80=99s

contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available=
 to

the public into perpetuity.



While the document states that border filtering should protect against traf=
fic

injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there=
 is

the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets =
are

off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic=


into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to<=
br>
include the customer's networks too.



Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they h=
ave

to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any borde=
r

node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and mac=
hine

within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply sa=
ying

that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occ=
ur, when

the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seem=
s to

not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a mis=
sing

ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot i=
n, so

that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand=
 how

this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.










--000000000000523d3505d7d57bdc--


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From: Andrew - IETF 
To: Robert Raszuk , Warren Kumari 
CC: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , BESS 
Thread-Topic: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Robert Raszuk 
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 19:36:44 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: Andrew - IETF 
Cc: Warren Kumari ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , BESS 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Andrew,

When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from section 2 which says:

- - -

   The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-
   SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2
   services.

   o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
      SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
      functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received with a Layer
      3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
      [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY be encoded, but
      not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.

   o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
      SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
      functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
      Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors
      which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
      End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.

   When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
   it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
   TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
   defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
   [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.

   The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] with SRv6
   is outside the scope of this document.

- - -

This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128 and
SAFI 70.

To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the wild. Also SAFI 2
is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.

The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section 5.4 and use of
global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1

Many thx,
R.




On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF 
wrote:

> Robert,
>
>
>
> I have to say that I have very similar readings on parts of the draft.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem to indicate AFI 1 / =
SAFI 4
>
> 5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
>
> 5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows advertisement over SA=
FI 1, 2 or 4
>
> 5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refers to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.
>
>
>
> I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it=
 doesn=E2=80=99t
> =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agree with the thoughts expressed in Wa=
rrens
> Discuss.  If I am wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me
> understand this better, and then lets potentially see if we can work up
> some wording that would clarify this if that is what is required.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* iesg  *On Behalf Of * Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
> *To:* Warren Kumari 
> *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ;
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <
> iesg@ietf.org>; BESS 
> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
> Hi Warren,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start discussing it perhaps it
> would be good to align on what this document really defines as I am sensi=
ng
> from your description there can be some disconnect (modulo some text may =
be
> indeed misleading in the draft).
>
>
>
> You said:
>
>
>
> > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
> > contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
> available to
> > the public into perpetuity.
>
>
>
> I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
>
>
>
> Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines
> extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not used to peer outside =
of
> a domain, collection of domains under same administration +
> of course inter-as also could happen.
>
>
>
> With that being said I do not see risk that due to leaking there could be
> a situation where customer networks are exposed in any way externally -
> leaving alone that to even get at the transport level to the customer
> facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from outside. But this is ou=
t
> of scope of this document as here the focus is not on underlay but overla=
y.
>
>
>
> Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little piece perhaps
> misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 whic=
h
> defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
> clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other co-authors belie=
ve
> this is applicable to the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be
> valid.
>
>
>
> Many thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE
> routers
> using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
> trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes
> within a
> single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that the
> BGP
> service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP
> sessions
> are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to
> (from
> RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST
> NOT be
> leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."
>
> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
> available to
> the public into perpetuity.
>
> While the document states that border filtering should protect against
> traffic
> injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure,
> there is
> the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bet=
s
> are
> off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traff=
ic
> into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface t=
o
> include the customer's networks too.
>
> Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they
> have
> to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any
> border
> node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and
> machine
> within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply
> saying
> that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occur=
,
> when
> the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from
> seems to
> not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a
> missing
> ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot in,
> so
> that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my
> understand how
> this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
>
>
>

--00000000000087c7c605d7d677bb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Andrew,

When I read Warren's not=
e Iooked at this text from=C2=A0section 2 which says:=C2=A0

<=
/div>
- - -=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Servic=
e TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SID A=
ttribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0se=
rvices.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes S=
ervice SID information for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L3 services.=
=C2=A0 It corresponds to the equivalent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionali=
ty provided by an MPLS Label when received with a Layer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC9136].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY b=
e encoded, but
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4=
, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L2 Service TLV: T=
his TLV encodes Service SID information for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 ba=
sed L2 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the equivalent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 E=
ndpoint behaviors
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which MAY be encoded, but not lim=
ited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 End.DT2U, End.DT2M =
etc.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over=
 SRv6 data-plane,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs =
enclosed in SRv6 Service
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID A=
ttribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in [RFC4760] [RFC=
4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC9136] where applica=
ble as described in Section 5 and Section 6.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The suppor=
t for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] with SRv6
=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0is outside the scope of this document.

- - =
-=C2=A0

This limits the overlay signalling to non =
global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.=C2=A0

To=
 your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the wild. Also SAFI 2 i=
s multicast which is out of scope of this draft.=C2=A0

=

The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section 5.4 and use =
of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1=C2=A0

Many thx,<=
/div>
R.




On Sat, Feb =
12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech> wrote:











Robert,


=C2=A0


I have to say that I have very similar readings on p=
arts of the draft.


=C2=A0


Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93


=C2=A0


5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem=
 to indicate AFI 1 / SAFI 4


5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading 


5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows =
advertisement over SAFI 1, 2 or 4



5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refe=
rs to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.


=C2=A0


I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1=
 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agr=
ee with the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.=C2=A0 If I am wrong abou=
t 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me understand this better, and
 then lets potentially see if we can work up some wording that would clarif=
y this if that is what is required.


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of =

Robert Raszuk

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>

Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>; draft-ietf-b=
ess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Warren,




=C2=A0






Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start disc=
ussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what this document really de=
fines as I am sensing from your description there can be some disconnect (m=
odulo some text may be indeed=C2=A0misleading
 in the draft).=C2=A0






=C2=A0






You said:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- a=
nd when they do, the SID=E2=80=99s

> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence avai=
lable to

> the public into perpetuity.






=C2=A0






I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Leaks do happen but only within global=C2=A0AFI/SAFI=
s. This draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not u=
sed to peer outside of a domain, collection of domains under same administr=
ation + of=C2=A0course=C2=A0inter-as also could happen.=C2=A0=







=C2=A0






With that=C2=A0being said I do not see risk that due=
 to leaking there could be a situation where customer networks are exposed =
in any way externally - leaving alone that to even get at the=C2=A0transpor=
t level to the customer facing PE is also filtered
 and never allowed from outside. But this is out of scope of this document =
as here the focus is not on underlay but overlay.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little =
piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to =
RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs=
 to be made clear that it is applicable
 to the latter only. If other co-authors believe this is applicable=C2=A0to=
 the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.=C2=A0=







=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via D=
atatracker <norepl=
y@ietf.org> wrote:






Warren Kumari has enter=
ed the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between P=
E routers

using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within=
 a

single provider network).=C2=A0 Precaution should be taken to ensure that t=
he BGP

service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sess=
ions

are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related t=
o (from

RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUS=
T NOT be

leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."



However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=E2=
=80=99s

contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available=
 to

the public into perpetuity.



While the document states that border filtering should protect against traf=
fic

injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there=
 is

the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets =
are

off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic=


into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to<=
br>
include the customer's networks too.



Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they h=
ave

to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any borde=
r

node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and mac=
hine

within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply sa=
ying

that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occ=
ur, when

the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seem=
s to

not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a mis=
sing

ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot i=
n, so

that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand=
 how

this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.



















--00000000000087c7c605d7d677bb--


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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Fast Recovery for EVPN Designated Forwarder Election
        Authors         : Patrice Brissette
                          Ali Sajassi
                          Luc Andre Burdet
                          John Drake
                          Jorge Rabadan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-04.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2022-02-12

Abstract:
   Ethernet Virtual Private Network (EVPN) solution provides Designated
   Forwarder election procedures for multihomed Ethernet Segments.
   These procedures have been enhanced further by applying Highest
   Random Weight (HRW) Algorithm for Designated Forwarded election in
   order to avoid unnecessary DF status changes upon a failure.  This
   draft improves these procedures by providing a fast Designated
   Forwarder (DF) election upon recovery of the failed link or node
   associated with the multihomed Ethernet Segment.  The solution is
   independent of number of EVIs associated with that Ethernet Segment
   and it is performed via a simple signaling between the recovered PE
   and each of the other PEs in the multihoming group.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-04


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Luc_Andr=E9_Burdet?= 
To: "anoop@alumni.duke.edu" , "matthew.bocci@nokia.com" 
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03
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Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03
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Hi Anoop,
Thanks for your detailed review, I have posted -04 addressing these comment=
s.

>>Timestamp Fractional Seconds (17 bits)
This threw me off for a bit...
>> Now that I double check, the figure is wrong!  It uses only 7 bits for t=
he Type which looks like it should be 8 bits.  So it looks like Timestamp F=
ractional Seconds should be 16 bits.
...but you actually hit onto a critical misalignment in the figure !

I have moved the whole description section up into the encoding/extcomm as =
descriptive text of the fields themselves. Nice catch, thank you !

Regards,
Luc Andr=E9

Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisco  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com  |  Tel: +1 613 254=
 4814


From: Anoop Ghanwani 
Date: Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:50
To: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) 
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org , bess@ietf.org , bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg 
Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-e=
vpn-fast-df-recovery-03
I support publication of the document as an RFC.  However, I think there ar=
e some editorial nits that need to be addressed (see below).

Anoop

=3D=3D

Abstract

performed via a simple signaling between the recovered PE
   and each PEs in the multi-homing group.
->
performed via simple signaling between the recovered PE
   and each of the other PEs in the multi-homing group.


Multiple sections

multi-homing Ethernet Segment ->
multi-homed Ethernet Segment

Ethernet-Segment ->
Ethernet Segment

There are some instances of use of ES (section 3.2).  Either ES should be s=
pelled out and used throughout or, which is what I would do, replace the 2 =
instances of ES in Section 3.2 with Ethernet Segment.

It would also be good to provide captions for all figures since it makes it=
 easy to reference.


Section 1

EVPN solution [RFC7432]
->
The EVPN specification [RFC7432]

and it is performed via a
   simple signaling between the recovered PE and each PE in the multi-
   homing group.
->
and it is performed via
   simple signaling between the recovered PE and each of the other PEs in t=
he multi-
   homing group.



Section 2
The current state of art (Highest Random Weight)
->
The current state of art HRW (Highest Random Weight)

duplication of DF roles for a give VLAN is possible.
->
duplication of DF roles for a given VLAN is possible.


Section 3.1

   -  A simple uni-directional signaling is all needed
->
   -  A simple uni-directional signaling is all that is needed

-  (e.g .NTP, PTP, etc.)
->
-  (e.g. NTP, PTP, etc.)


Section 3.2
It would be good to explicitly explain the fields below the figure, e.g.
Timestamp Seconds (32 bits): ...
Timestamp Fractional Seconds (17 bits): ... (provide details on how this pa=
rt is created)
If this is omitted because it is in some other doc, then provide a referenc=
e.

[Looks like the figure is wrong about length for Timestamp Fractional Secon=
ds which is why it would help to have a description as above.]

PEs in the ES [there are 2 instances]
->
PEs attached to the Ethernet Segment

want the DF type be of HRW
->
want the DF type to be HRW

"The use
   of a 32-bit seconds and 16-bit fractional seconds yields adequate
   precision of 15 microseconds (2^-16 s)."
The figure shows 17 bits for fractional seconds.  Now that I double check, =
the figure is wrong!  It uses only 7 bits for the Type which looks like it =
should be 8 bits.  So it looks like Timestamp Fractional Seconds should be =
16 bits.


Section 3.4

   -  PE2, it starts its 3sec peering timer as per RFC7432
->
   -  PE2, starts its 3 sec peering timer as per RFC7432

[RFC7432] aims of favouring traffic black hole over duplicate traffic
(Missing period at end of sentence.)

Spell out first use of NDF.

becomes a no-op
->
becomes a non-issue.

The usage of
   SCT approach remedies to the exposed problem with the usage of
   peering timer.  The 3 seconds timer window is shorthen to few
   milliseconds.
->
The usage of
   SCT approach remedies the problem with the usage of the
   peering timer.  The 3 second timer window is shortened to a few
   milliseconds.


Section 3.5

modulus based
->
modulo-based

running an baseline DF election
->
running a baseline DF election

shall simply discard unrecognized new SCT BGP extended community.
->
will simply disregard the new SCT BGP extended community.

"...all PEs in the Ethernet-Segment may revert back to the RFC7432 timer ap=
proach."
Is this a "may" or should it be a "must"?

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 5:58 AM Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) > wrote:
Hi WG,

This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evp=
n-fast-df-recovery-03 [1].

This poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022.

We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th=
is Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF =
IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please re=
spond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any releva=
nt undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all th=
e Authors and Contributors.
There is currently no IPR disclosed.

If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly=
 respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i=
n conformance with IETF rules.

We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. Please indi=
cate if you are aware of any implementations.

Thank you,
Matthew & Stephane

[1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF El=
ection
[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw


_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi A=
noop,


Than=
ks for your detailed review, I have posted -04 addressing these comments.


 


>=
>Timestamp Fractiona=
l Seconds (17 bits)


This=
 threw me off for a bit...


>>=
; Now that I double check, the figure is wrong!  It uses only 7 bits f=
or the Type which looks like it should be 8 bits.  So it looks like Ti=
mestamp Fractional Seconds should be 16 bits.


...b=
ut you actually hit onto a critical misalignment in the figure !=



 


I ha=
ve moved the whole description section up into the encoding/extcomm as desc=
riptive text of the fields themselves. Nice catch, thank you !


 




Regards,


Luc Andr=E9

 


Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisc=
o  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com  |  Tel: +1 613 254 4814<=
o:p>




 


 




From:
Anoop Ghanwani <=
anoop@alumni.duke.edu>

Date: Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:50

To: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org <draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>,=
 bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf=
-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03








I support publication of the document as an RFC.&nbs=
p; However, I think there are some editorial nits that need to be addressed=
 (see below).






 






Anoop






 






=3D=3D






 






Abstract




 




performed via a simple signaling between the recover=
ed PE

   and each PEs in the multi-homing group.

->

performed via simple signaling between the recovered PE

   and each of the other PEs in the multi-homing group.






 






 






Multiple sections






 






multi-homing Ethernet Segment ->






multi-homed Ethernet Segment






 






Ethernet-Segment -> 






Ethernet Segment






 






There are some instances of use of ES (section 3.2).=
  Either ES should be spelled out and used throughout or, which is wha=
t I would do, replace the 2 instances of ES in Section 3.2 with Ethernet Se=
gment.



It would also be good to provide captions for all figures since it makes it=
 easy to reference.










Section 1



EVPN solution [RFC7432]

->

The EVPN specification [RFC7432]






 




and it is performed via a

   simple signaling between the recovered PE and each PE in the m=
ulti-

   homing group.

->

and it is performed via

   simple signaling between the recovered PE and each of the othe=
r PEs in the multi-

   homing group.




 




 




Section 2<=
/p>





The current state of art (Highest Random Weight)

->

The current state of art HRW (Highest Random Weight)






 






duplication of DF roles for a give VLAN is possible.=


->

duplication of DF roles for a given VLAN is possible.






 






 






Section 3.1






   -  A simple uni-directional signaling is all needed

->

   -  A simple uni-directional signaling is all that is need=
ed






-  (e.g .NTP, PTP, etc.)

->

-  (e.g. NTP, PTP, etc.)






 






 






Section 3.2






It would be good to explicitly explain the fields be=
low the figure, e.g.

Timestamp Seconds (32 bits): ...

Timestamp Fractional Seconds (17 bits): ... (provide details on how this pa=
rt is created)

If this is omitted because it is in some other doc, then provide a referenc=
e.






 






[Looks like the figure is wrong about length for Tim=
estamp Fractional Seconds which is why it would help to have a description =
as above.]






 






PEs in the ES [there are 2 instances] 






->






PEs attached to the Ethernet Segment






 




want the DF type be of HRW 




->

want the DF type to be HRW






 




"The use

   of a 32-bit seconds and 16-bit fractional seconds yields adequ=
ate

   precision of 15 microseconds (2^-16 s)."




The figure shows 17 bits for fractional seconds.&nbs=
p; Now that I double check, the figure is wrong!  It uses only 7 bits =
for the Type which looks like it should be 8 bits.  So it looks like T=
imestamp Fractional Seconds should be 16 bits.






 






 




Section 3.4



   -  PE2, it starts its 3sec peering timer as per RFC7432
->

   -  PE2, starts its 3 sec peering timer as per RFC7432




 






[RFC7432] aims of favouring traffic black hole over =
duplicate traffic

(Missing period at end of sentence.)






 






Spell out first use of NDF.






 




becomes a no-op

->

becomes a non-issue.






The usage of

   SCT approach remedies to the exposed problem with the usage of=


   peering timer.  The 3 seconds timer window is shorthen to=
 few

   milliseconds.

->

The usage of

   SCT approach remedies the problem with the usage of the

   peering timer.  The 3 second timer window is shortened to=
 a few

   milliseconds.








 






 






Section 3.5












 




modulus based

->

modulo-based




 




running an baseline DF election

->

running a baseline DF election




 




shall simply discard unrecognized new SCT BGP extend=
ed community.

->

will simply disregard the new SCT BGP extended community.




 




"...all PEs in the Ethernet-Segment may revert =
back to the RFC7432 timer approach."

Is this a "may" or should it be a "must"?



 






On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 5:58 AM Bocci, Matthew (Noki=
a - GB) <ma=
tthew.bocci@nokia.com> wrote:










Hi WG,=



 =



This email starts a two-week Working Group La=
st Call on
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 [1].

 =



This poll runs until Monday 14th F=
ebruary 2022.


 =



We are also polling for knowledge of any undi=
sclosed IPR that applies to this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disc=
losed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
 (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).


If you are listed as an Author or a Contribut=
or of this document, please respond to this email and indicate whether or n=
ot you are aware of any relevant undisclosed
 IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all the Authors and =
Contributors. 


There is currently no IPR disclosed.


 =



If you are not listed as an Author or a Contr=
ibutor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR tha=
t has not yet been disclosed in conformance
 with IETF rules.


 =



We are also polling for any existing implemen=
tation as per [2]. Please indicate if you are aware of any implementat=
ions.


 =



Thank you,


Matthew & Stephane


 =



[1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03
 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF Election


[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/=
arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw


 =



 






_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess










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From: Andrew - IETF 
To: Robert Raszuk , Andrew - IETF 
CC: Warren Kumari , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , BESS 
Thread-Topic: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHYH5vgWBr/lTmSLE2mj9f0DoaVLqyQLAyAgAAJMkCAAAqBAIAAAJHA
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 18:51:09 +0000
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References: <164462070317.8057.6829026572175337017@ietfa.amsl.com>   
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 14:17:37 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Robert Raszuk 
Cc: Andrew - IETF , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , The IESG , Warren Kumari , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Robert / All

For service providers and enterprises using GRT or VRF to carry the
internet or intra internet  routing table using MPLS today or SR-MPLS that
would like to use SRv6 to provide the same service.

Section.  5.1 and 5.2 cover the VPN case in which the customer traffic is
in VRF overlay and the SRv6 transport layer is a closed domain.

Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop
encoding.  In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=80=
=99s the
customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as BGP
leaks.

So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used
today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.

I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed but ju=
st to
tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain.

As far as the SRv6 domain is concerned even with GRT the domain is still
closed at the PE ingress and egress points which is where the concern is
for BGP leaks.  The BGP Prefix SID encoding the SRv6 L3 service TLVs would,
the encoding would only be present in the SRv6 SID Function field within
the closed domain, and once you exit the SRv6 domain at the ingress or
egress endpoints the SRv6 L3 service TLVs would now be carried natively in
BGP and not in the SRv6 BGP prefix SID encoding.

   When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
   it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
   TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
   defined in [RFC4760
] [RFC4659
] [RFC8950
] [RFC7432
] [RFC4364
]
   [RFC9136 ] where
applicable as described in Section 5

and Section 6 .


So as far as SRv6 SID leaking there would not be any leaking outside the
SRv6 domain.

However as the GRT carry internet or intranet BGP RIB the SP AS is of
course transitive so entire table is propagated.  That=E2=80=99s not a leak=
.

I think we just need to maybe tighten up the verbiage on securing the PE
edges of the SRv6 domain.

Kind Regards

Gyan


On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Robert Raszuk  wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from section 2 which says:
>
> - - -
>
>    The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-
>    SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2
>    services.
>
>    o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>       SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received with a Layer
>       3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
>       [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY be encoded, but
>       not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.
>
>    o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>       SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
>       Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors
>       which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
>       End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.
>
>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>    defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
>    [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.
>
>    The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] with SRv6
>    is outside the scope of this document.
>
> - - -
>
> This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128 an=
d
> SAFI 70.
>
> To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the wild. Also SAFI
> 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.
>
> The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section 5.4 and use of
> global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1
>
> Many thx,
> R.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF 
> wrote:
>
>> Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have to say that I have very similar readings on parts of the draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93
>>
>>
>>
>> 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem to indicate AFI 1 /=
 SAFI 4
>>
>> 5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
>>
>> 5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows advertisement over S=
AFI 1, 2 or 4
>>
>> 5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refers to AFI 2 / SAFI 1=
.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 i=
t doesn=E2=80=99t
>> =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agree with the thoughts expressed in W=
arrens
>> Discuss.  If I am wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help m=
e
>> understand this better, and then lets potentially see if we can work up
>> some wording that would clarify this if that is what is required.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* iesg  *On Behalf Of * Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
>> *To:* Warren Kumari 
>> *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ;
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <
>> iesg@ietf.org>; BESS 
>> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Warren,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start discussing it perhaps it
>> would be good to align on what this document really defines as I am sens=
ing
>> from your description there can be some disconnect (modulo some text may=
 be
>> indeed misleading in the draft).
>>
>>
>>
>> You said:
>>
>>
>>
>> > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the
>> SID=E2=80=99s
>> > contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
>> available to
>> > the public into perpetuity.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines
>> extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not used to peer outside=
 of
>> a domain, collection of domains under same administration +
>> of course inter-as also could happen.
>>
>>
>>
>> With that being said I do not see risk that due to leaking there could b=
e
>> a situation where customer networks are exposed in any way externally -
>> leaving alone that to even get at the transport level to the customer
>> facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from outside. But this is o=
ut
>> of scope of this document as here the focus is not on underlay but overl=
ay.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little piece perhaps
>> misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 whi=
ch
>> defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
>> clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other co-authors beli=
eve
>> this is applicable to the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be
>> valid.
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
>> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions=
/
>> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE
>> routers
>> using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
>> trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes
>> within a
>> single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that the
>> BGP
>> service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP
>> sessions
>> are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to
>> (from
>> RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST
>> NOT be
>> leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."
>>
>> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
>> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
>> available to
>> the public into perpetuity.
>>
>> While the document states that border filtering should protect against
>> traffic
>> injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure,
>> there is
>> the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all
>> bets are
>> off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject
>> traffic
>> into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface =
to
>> include the customer's networks too.
>>
>> Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, the=
y
>> have
>> to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any
>> border
>> node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and
>> machine
>> within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply
>> saying
>> that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't
>> occur, when
>> the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from
>> seems to
>> not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a
>> missing
>> ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot in=
,
>> so
>> that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my
>> understand how
>> this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
--=20



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

--000000000000f03e1205d7d70992
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Hi Robert / All=C2=A0

For service providers and enterprises=
 using GRT or VRF to carry the internet or intra internet =C2=A0routing tab=
le using MPLS today or SR-MPLS that would like to use SRv6 to provide the s=
ame service.

Secti=
on. =C2=A05.1 and 5.2 cover the VPN case in which the customer traffic is i=
n VRF overlay and the SRv6 transport layer is a closed domain.=C2=A0
<=
div dir=3D"auto">
Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT =
option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop encoding.=C2=A0 In this case using G=
RT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=80=99s the customer routes and tha=
t is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as BGP leaks. =C2=A0

So when GRT is used the same edg=
e filtering protection mechanisms used today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would app=
ly to SRv6 for GRT use case.

I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed b=
ut just to tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain. =C2=A0

As far as the SRv6 domain is conc=
erned even with GRT the domain is still closed at the PE ingress and egress=
 points which is where the concern is for BGP leaks.=C2=A0 The BGP Prefix S=
ID encoding the SRv6 L3 service TLVs would, the encoding would only be pres=
ent in the SRv6 SID Function field within the closed domain, and once you e=
xit the SRv6 domain at the ingress or egress endpoints the SRv6 L3 service =
TLVs would now be carried natively in BGP and not in the SRv6 BGP prefix SI=
D encoding.

   When an egress PE is ena=
bled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
   it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
   TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
   defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364=
]
   [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.


So as far as SRv6 SID leaking there would not be any leaking =
outside the SRv6 domain.

However as the GRT carry internet or intranet BGP RIB the SP AS is of cour=
se transitive so entire table is propagated.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s not a lea=
k.

I think we just need =
to maybe tighten up the verbiage on securing the PE edges of the SRv6 domai=
n.

Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan


On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> w=
rote:
Hi Andrew,

<=
div>When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from=C2=A0section 2 w=
hich says:=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0

<=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the B=
GP Prefix-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs =
for L3 and L2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0services.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L3=
 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L3 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the equivalent
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received =
with a Layer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 service route as defined in [RFC4364=
] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC9136].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 En=
dpoint behaviors which MAY be encoded, but
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not limi=
ted to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =
=C2=A0SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L2 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 f=
or Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Route-Types as defined in [R=
FC7432].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which M=
AY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an egress PE is ena=
bled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0it signals one =
or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLV(s) w=
ithin the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0[RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC65=
13] with SRv6
=C2=A0 =C2=A0is outside the scope of this document.

- - -=C2=A0

This limits the=
 overlay signalling to non global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.=C2=A0<=
/div>

To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged=
 in the wild. Also SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.=
=C2=A0

The only thing which we need to sync on is =
indeed section 5.4 and use of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1=C2=A0

Many thx,
R.


=



On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ie=
tf@liquid.tech> wrote:











Robert,


=C2=A0


I have to say that I have very similar readings on p=
arts of the draft.


=C2=A0


Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93


=C2=A0


5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem=
 to indicate AFI 1 / SAFI 4


5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading 


5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows =
advertisement over SAFI 1, 2 or 4



5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refe=
rs to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.


=C2=A0


I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1=
 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agr=
ee with the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.=C2=A0 If I am wrong abou=
t 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me understand this better, and
 then lets potentially see if we can work up some wording that would clarif=
y this if that is what is required.


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of =

Robert Raszuk

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>

Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>; draft-ietf-b=
ess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Warren,




=C2=A0






Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start disc=
ussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what this document really de=
fines as I am sensing from your description there can be some disconnect (m=
odulo some text may be indeed=C2=A0misleading
 in the draft).=C2=A0






=C2=A0






You said:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- a=
nd when they do, the SID=E2=80=99s

> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence avai=
lable to

> the public into perpetuity.






=C2=A0






I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Leaks do happen but only within global=C2=A0AFI/SAFI=
s. This draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not u=
sed to peer outside of a domain, collection of domains under same administr=
ation + of=C2=A0course=C2=A0inter-as also could happen.=C2=A0=







=C2=A0






With that=C2=A0being said I do not see risk that due=
 to leaking there could be a situation where customer networks are exposed =
in any way externally - leaving alone that to even get at the=C2=A0transpor=
t level to the customer facing PE is also filtered
 and never allowed from outside. But this is out of scope of this document =
as here the focus is not on underlay but overlay.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little =
piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to =
RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs=
 to be made clear that it is applicable
 to the latter only. If other co-authors believe this is applicable=C2=A0to=
 the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.=C2=A0=







=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via D=
atatracker <norepl=
y@ietf.org> wrote:






Warren Kumari has enter=
ed the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between P=
E routers

using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within=
 a

single provider network).=C2=A0 Precaution should be taken to ensure that t=
he BGP

service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sess=
ions

are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related t=
o (from

RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUS=
T NOT be

leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."



However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=E2=
=80=99s

contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available=
 to

the public into perpetuity.



While the document states that border filtering should protect against traf=
fic

injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there=
 is

the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets =
are

off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic=


into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to<=
br>
include the customer's networks too.



Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they h=
ave

to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any borde=
r

node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and mac=
hine

within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply sa=
ying

that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occ=
ur, when

the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seem=
s to

not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a mis=
sing

ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot i=
n, so

that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand=
 how

this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.


















_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess




-- 
=

Gyan Mishra
Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0<=
/p>
Email gyan.s.mishra@ver=
izon.com<=
br>
M 301 502-1347




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From: Andrew - IETF 
To: Gyan Mishra , Robert Raszuk 
CC: Andrew - IETF , BESS , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , The IESG , Warren Kumari , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Robert Raszuk 
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 22:23:08 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: Gyan Mishra 
Cc: Andrew - IETF , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , The IESG , Warren Kumari , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Gyan,

Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop
> encoding.  In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=
=80=99s the
> customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as B=
GP
> leaks.
>

I would have the same concern so would VPN customers. No one is selling L2
or L3 VPN service to them distributing their reachability in the global
routing table. They can do that all by themselves and there is lot's of
really solid tools or products to do that already without being locked to a
single telco.

So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used
> today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.
>

Not possible. It is not about filtering ... it is all about using globally
routable SAFI vs private SAFIs to distribute customer's reachability, IMO
that should still be OTT only.

I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed but ju=
st to
> tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain.
>

BGP filtering or policy is in hands of many people. As has been proven you
can not tighten them strong enough not to leak. The only natural way to
tighten them is to use different plane to distribute private information
what in this context means at least different BGP SAFI.

So no - I do not agree with your observations.

However I am for providing overlay reachability over global IPv6 Internet
to interconnect customer sites. But routing within those sites should not
be traversing Internet routers and using SAFI 1.

Rgs,
Robert.

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Gyan,

=

Section=
 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop encoding.=C2=
=A0 In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=80=99s the=
 customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as BG=
P leaks. =C2=A0

I would have the same=
 concern so would VPN customers. No one is selling L2 or L3 VPN service to =
them=C2=A0distributing=C2=A0their reachability in the global routing table.=
 They can do that all by themselves and there is lot's of really solid =
tools or products to do that already without being locked to a single telco=
.=C2=A0

So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection=
 mechanisms used today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use=
 case.

Not possible. It is not ab=
out=C2=A0filtering ... it is all about using globally routable SAFI vs priv=
ate SAFIs to distribute customer's reachability, IMO that should still =
be OTT only.=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or =
5.4 should not be allowed but just to tighten up verbiage as far securing t=
he domain.=C2=A0=C2=A0

BGP filter=
ing or policy is in hands of many people. As has been proven you can not ti=
ghten them strong enough=C2=A0not to leak. The only natural way to tighten =
them is to use different=C2=A0plane to distribute private information what=
=C2=A0in this=C2=A0context means=C2=A0at=C2=A0least different BGP SAFI.=C2=
=A0

So no - I do not agree with your observations.=
=C2=A0

However I am for providing overlay reachabi=
lity over global IPv6 Internet to interconnect customer sites. But routing =
within those sites should not be traversing Internet routers and using SAFI=
 1.=C2=A0

Rgs,
Robert.



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In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 16:28:28 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Andrew - IETF 
Cc: BESS , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" ,  Robert Raszuk , The IESG , Warren Kumari ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Andrew

Responses in-line

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 2:42 PM Andrew - IETF 
wrote:

> Gyan,
>
>
>
> However what you say then raises additional concerns.
>
>
>
> RFC8402 Section 8.2 explicitly prohibits sending SRv6 traffic beyond the
> borders of a domain and over the general internet.  Making use of traffic
> destined for an address within the SRGB of another network isn=E2=80=99t =
permitted
> as per:
>
>  Gyan> The purpose of the domain boundary filters is to protect the SRv6
> nodes within the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80=9D by filtering external traffic=
 at the boundary
> edges any traffic destined to any IPv6 destination address within the SRG=
B
> or SRLB which would be underlay node connected interfaces IGP routable no=
t
> in BGP. This is done for any internet or intranet MPLS domain today to
> secure the domain trust boundary.
>
>    SR domain boundary routers MUST filter any external traffic destined
>
>    to an address within the SRGB of the trusted domain or the SRLB of
>
>    the specific boundary router.  External traffic is any traffic
>
>    received from an interface connected to a node outside the domain of
>
>    trust.
>
>
>
> As regards the BGP =E2=80=93 it goes further still:
>
>  Gyan> This is not a BGP related just IGP underlay related.  BGP prefix
> sid attribute is used to encode SRv6 L3 service TLVs within the SR domain
> basically mapping the VPN and GRT BGP AFI/SAFI into the Function field of
> SRv6 SID equivalent to MPLS VPN service label bottom of stack.  However
> this is only within the SRv6 domain and once the packet leaves the SRv6
> domain it=E2=80=99s native BGP AFI/SAFI encoding and not in SRv6 SID.  So=
 even
> though SRv6 SID contains the BGP service label encoding it is not BGP
> overlay encoding that needs to be secured providing transitivity.
>
>    From a network-protection standpoint, there is an assumed trust model
>
>    such that any node adding an SRH to the packet is assumed to be
>
>    allowed to do so.  Therefore, by default, the explicit routing
>
>    information MUST NOT be leaked through the boundaries of the
>
>    administered domain.
>
> Gyan> SR provides a means of stateless traffic steering in the underlay
> framework using IGP extension to provide the SID distribution  for both
> SR-MPLS and SRv6.  The SID distribution is done via the IGP extensions as
> part of the underlay.  The underlay is not routable reachable from outsid=
e
> the domain and even in MPLS TTL propagation is disabled to hide the
> visibility.  One big difference between MPLS and SRv6 is that the SR sour=
ce
> node encapsulates the PE-CE AC payload in IPv6 outer header for both VPN
> overlay and GRT traffic so they are both treated the same where MPLS with
> GRT the customer traffic is natively routed and no overlay encapsulation.
> However in both cases of course we have a BGP overlay RIB which carry the
> internet or intranet table and that is transitory traffic and is not
> filtered at the trust boundary.
>
So the trust boundary filtering is primary goal is to protect the underlay
> nodes and not interfere with the transitory BGP routing reachability.
>
> Now, I may be misunderstanding here =E2=80=93 but =E2=80=93 if at any poi=
nt the
> announcements lead to traffic flowing towards a SID from outside the
> administered domain =E2=80=93 that violates 8402.  If the SID=E2=80=99s a=
re in BGP prefix=E2=80=99s
> that are transitive and find their way onto the general internet =E2=80=
=93 that
> also violates 8402.
>
>  Gyan> As long as  the infrastructure  filters are applied at the trust
> boundary protection of the underlay SRv6 nodes there is no issue and that
> verbiage just needs to be clear in this draft following *RFC 8402.*
>
> Now, this could be a misunderstanding on my part =E2=80=93 so I=E2=80=99d=
 welcome
> clarification if I am incorrect in what I am seeing here =E2=80=93 which =
may also
> lead to text which is clearer (as a note, I ran this past several operato=
rs
> who had very similar readings to what I had =E2=80=93 so =E2=80=93 if it=
=E2=80=99s a matter of
> misunderstanding, we really do need to find a way to clarify it, if its n=
ot
> a misunderstanding, then we need to find a way to rectify it for security
> purposes and to bring it in-line with RFC8402.
>
>  Gyan> Understood.  We can update the verbiage to make it crystal clear.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Gyan Mishra 
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 10:18 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk 
> *Cc:* Andrew - IETF ; BESS ;
> Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ; The IESG <
> iesg@ietf.org>; Warren Kumari ; bess-chairs@ietf.org;
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Robert / All
>
>
>
> For service providers and enterprises using GRT or VRF to carry the
> internet or intra internet  routing table using MPLS today or SR-MPLS tha=
t
> would like to use SRv6 to provide the same service.
>
>
>
> Section.  5.1 and 5.2 cover the VPN case in which the customer traffic is
> in VRF overlay and the SRv6 transport layer is a closed domain.
>
>
>
> Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop
> encoding.  In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=
=80=99s the
> customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as B=
GP
> leaks.
>
>
>
> So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used
> today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.
>
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed but =
just to
> tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain.
>
>
>
> As far as the SRv6 domain is concerned even with GRT the domain is still
> closed at the PE ingress and egress points which is where the concern is
> for BGP leaks.  The BGP Prefix SID encoding the SRv6 L3 service TLVs woul=
d,
> the encoding would only be present in the SRv6 SID Function field within
> the closed domain, and once you exit the SRv6 domain at the ingress or
> egress endpoints the SRv6 L3 service TLVs would now be carried natively i=
n
> BGP and not in the SRv6 BGP prefix SID encoding.
>
>
>
>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>
>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>
>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>
>    defined in [RFC4760 ] [=
RFC4659 ] [RFC8950 ] [RFC7432 ] [RFC4364 ]
>
>    [RFC9136 ] where applic=
able as described in Section 5  and Section 6 .
>
>
>
> So as far as SRv6 SID leaking there would not be any leaking outside the
> SRv6 domain.
>
>
>
> However as the GRT carry internet or intranet BGP RIB the SP AS is of
> course transitive so entire table is propagated.  That=E2=80=99s not a le=
ak.
>
>
>
> I think we just need to maybe tighten up the verbiage on securing the PE
> edges of the SRv6 domain.
>
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
>
> Gyan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Robert Raszuk  wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
>
>
> When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from section 2 which says:
>
>
>
> - - -
>
>
>
>    The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-
>    SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2
>    services.
>
>    o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>       SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received with a Layer
>       3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
>       [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY be encoded, but
>       not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.
>
>    o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>       SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
>       Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors
>       which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
>       End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.
>
>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>    defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
>    [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.
>
>    The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] with SRv6
>    is outside the scope of this document.
>
>
>
> - - -
>
>
>
> This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128 an=
d
> SAFI 70.
>
>
>
> To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the wild. Also SAFI
> 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.
>
>
>
> The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section 5.4 and use of
> global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1
>
>
>
> Many thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF 
> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> I have to say that I have very similar readings on parts of the draft.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem to indicate AFI 1 / =
SAFI 4
>
> 5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
>
> 5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows advertisement over SA=
FI 1, 2 or 4
>
> 5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refers to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.
>
>
>
> I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it=
 doesn=E2=80=99t
> =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agree with the thoughts expressed in Wa=
rrens
> Discuss.  If I am wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me
> understand this better, and then lets potentially see if we can work up
> some wording that would clarify this if that is what is required.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* iesg  *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
> *To:* Warren Kumari 
> *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ;
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <
> iesg@ietf.org>; BESS 
> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
> Hi Warren,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start discussing it perhaps it
> would be good to align on what this document really defines as I am sensi=
ng
> from your description there can be some disconnect (modulo some text may =
be
> indeed misleading in the draft).
>
>
>
> You said:
>
>
>
> > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
> > contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
> available to
> > the public into perpetuity.
>
>
>
> I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
>
>
>
> Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines
> extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not used to peer outside =
of
> a domain, collection of domains under same administration +
> of course inter-as also could happen.
>
>
>
> With that being said I do not see risk that due to leaking there could be
> a situation where customer networks are exposed in any way externally -
> leaving alone that to even get at the transport level to the customer
> facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from outside. But this is ou=
t
> of scope of this document as here the focus is not on underlay but overla=
y.
>
>
>
> Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little piece perhaps
> misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 whic=
h
> defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
> clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other co-authors belie=
ve
> this is applicable to the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be
> valid.
>
>
>
> Many thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE
> routers
> using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
> trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes
> within a
> single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that the
> BGP
> service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP
> sessions
> are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to
> (from
> RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST
> NOT be
> leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."
>
> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
> available to
> the public into perpetuity.
>
> While the document states that border filtering should protect against
> traffic
> injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure,
> there is
> the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bet=
s
> are
> off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traff=
ic
> into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface t=
o
> include the customer's networks too.
>
> Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they
> have
> to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any
> border
> node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and
> machine
> within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply
> saying
> that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occur=
,
> when
> the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from
> seems to
> not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a
> missing
> ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot in,
> so
> that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my
> understand how
> this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
>
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
> --
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] 
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
--=20



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

--000000000000ed197b05d7d8dd7e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Andrew=C2=A0

Responses in-line=C2=A0

=

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 2:42 PM Andre=
w - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech> wrote:











Gyan,


=C2=A0


However what you say then raises additional concerns=
.


=C2=A0


RFC8402 Section 8.2 explicitly prohibits sending SRv=
6 traffic beyond the borders of a domain and over the general internet.=C2=
=A0 Making use of traffic destined for an address within the SRGB of anothe=
r network isn=E2=80=99t permitted as per:


=C2=A0Gyan> The purpose of th=
e domain boundary filters is to protect the SRv6 nodes within the =E2=80=9C=
underlay=E2=80=9D by filtering external traffic at the boundary edges any t=
raffic destined to any IPv6 destination address within the SRGB or SRLB whi=
ch would be underlay node connected interfaces IGP routable not in BGP. Thi=
s is done for any internet or intranet MPLS domain today to secure the doma=
in trust boundary.


=C2=A0=C2=A0 SR domain boundary routers MUST fil=
ter any external traffic destined


=C2=A0=C2=A0 to an address within the SRGB of th=
e trusted domain or the SRLB of


=C2=A0=C2=A0 the specific boundary router.=C2=A0=
 External traffic is any traffic


=C2=A0=C2=A0 received from an interface connecte=
d to a node outside the domain of


=C2=A0=C2=A0 trust.


=C2=A0


As regards the BGP =E2=80=93 it goes further still:<=
u>


=C2=A0Gyan> This is not a BGP=
 related just IGP underlay related.=C2=A0 BGP prefix sid attribute is used =
to encode SRv6 L3 service TLVs within the SR domain basically mapping the V=
PN and GRT BGP AFI/SAFI into the Function field of SRv6 SID equivalent to M=
PLS VPN service label bottom of stack.=C2=A0 However this is only within th=
e SRv6 domain and once the packet leaves the SRv6 domain it=E2=80=99s nativ=
e BGP AFI/SAFI encoding and not in SRv6 SID.=C2=A0 So even though SRv6 SID =
contains the BGP service label encoding it is not BGP overlay encoding that=
 needs to be secured providing transitivity.


=C2=A0=C2=A0 From a network-protection standpoin=
t, there is an assumed trust model

=C2=A0=C2=A0 such that any node adding an SRH to=
 the packet is assumed to be


=C2=A0=C2=A0 allowed to do so.=C2=A0 Therefore, =
by default, the explicit routing


=C2=A0=C2=A0 information MUST NOT be leaked thro=
ugh the boundaries of the<=
/u>


=C2=A0=C2=A0 administered domain.



Gyan> SR provides a means of =
stateless traffic steering in the underlay framework using IGP extension to=
 provide the SID distribution =C2=A0for both SR-MPLS and SRv6.=C2=A0 The SI=
D distribution is done via the IGP extensions as part of the underlay.=C2=
=A0 The underlay is not routable reachable from outside the domain and even=
 in MPLS TTL propagation is disabled to hide the visibility.=C2=A0 One big =
difference between MPLS and SRv6 is that the SR source node encapsulates th=
e PE-CE AC payload in IPv6 outer header for both VPN overlay and GRT traffi=
c so they are both treated the same where MPLS with GRT the customer traffi=
c is natively routed and no overlay encapsulation.=C2=A0 However in both ca=
ses of course we have a BGP overlay RIB which carry the internet or intrane=
t table and that is transitory traffic and is not filtered at the trust bou=
ndary. =C2=A0
So the trust boundary filtering is primary goal is to protect the underla=
y nodes and not interfere with the transitory BGP routing reachability.<=
/u>


Now, I may be misunderstanding here =E2=80=93 but =
=E2=80=93 if at any point the announcements lead to traffic flowing towards=
 a SID from outside the administered domain =E2=80=93 that violates 8402.=
=C2=A0 If the SID=E2=80=99s are in BGP prefix=E2=80=99s that are transitive=
 and find
 their way onto the general internet =E2=80=93 that also violates 8402.<=
/u>


=C2=A0Gyan> As long as =C2=A0=
the infrastructure =C2=A0filters are applied at the trust boundary protecti=
on of the underlay SRv6 nodes there is no issue and that verbiage just need=
s to be clear in this draft following RFC 8402.


Now, this could be a misunderstanding on my part =E2=
=80=93 so I=E2=80=99d welcome clarification if I am incorrect in what I am =
seeing here =E2=80=93 which may also lead to text which is clearer (as a no=
te, I ran this past several operators who had very similar
 readings to what I had =E2=80=93 so =E2=80=93 if it=E2=80=99s a matter of =
misunderstanding, we really do need to find a way to clarify it, if its not=
 a misunderstanding, then we need to find a way to rectify it for security =
purposes and to bring it in-line with RFC8402.


=C2=A0Gyan> Understood.=C2=A0=
 We can update the verbiage to make it crystal clear.


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> 

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 10:18 PM

To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>

Cc: Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>; Bocci, M=
atthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; Warren Kumari <=
warren@kumari.net>; bess-chair=
s@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-s=
rv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Hi Robert / All=C2=A0






=C2=A0






For service providers and enterprises using GRT or V=
RF to carry the internet or intra internet =C2=A0routing table using MPLS t=
oday or SR-MPLS that would like to use SRv6 to provide the same service.=









=C2=A0






Section. =C2=A05.1 and 5.2 cover the VPN case in whi=
ch the customer traffic is in VRF overlay and the SRv6 transport layer is a=
 closed domain.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using R=
FC 5549 next hop encoding.=C2=A0 In this case using GRT transport underlay =
layer now carry=E2=80=99s the customer routes and that is what Warren and A=
ndrew concern is as far as BGP leaks. =C2=A0






=C2=A0






So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protecti=
on mechanisms used today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT u=
se case.






=C2=A0






I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 shoul=
d not be allowed but just to tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain=
. =C2=A0






=C2=A0






As far as the SRv6 domain is concerned even with GRT=
 the domain is still closed at the PE ingress and egress points which is wh=
ere the concern is for BGP leaks.=C2=A0 The BGP Prefix SID encoding the SRv=
6 L3 service TLVs would, the encoding would
 only be present in the SRv6 SID Function field within the closed domain, a=
nd once you exit the SRv6 domain at the ingress or egress endpoints the SRv=
6 L3 service TLVs would now be carried natively in BGP and not in the SRv6 =
BGP prefix SID encoding.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0=C2=A0 When an egress PE is enabled =
for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,


=C2=A0=C2=A0 it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclos=
ed in SRv6 Service


=C2=A0=C2=A0 TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute atta=
ched to MP-BGP NLRIs


=C2=A0=C2=A0 defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]


=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC9136] where =
applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.


=C2=A0






So as far as SRv6 SID leaking there would not be any=
 leaking outside the SRv6 domain.






=C2=A0






However as the GRT carry internet or intranet BGP RI=
B the SP AS is of course transitive so entire table is propagated.=C2=A0 Th=
at=E2=80=99s not a leak.






=C2=A0






I think we just need to maybe tighten up the verbiag=
e on securing the PE edges of the SRv6 domain.






=C2=A0






Kind Regards=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Gyan






=C2=A0








=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net&=
gt; wrote:








Hi Andrew,




=C2=A0






When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text fr=
om=C2=A0section 2 which says:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as tw=
o new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0services.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L3 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received =
with a Layer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC=
8950]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC9136].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MA=
Y be encoded, but

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6=
, etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L2 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet =
VPN (EVPN)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 E=
ndpoint behaviors

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2,=
 End.DX2V,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-p=
lane,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Serv=
ice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP =
NLRIs

=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Secti=
on 6.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] wi=
th SRv6

=C2=A0 =C2=A0is outside the scope of this document.






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAF=
Is mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged i=
n the wild. Also SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed se=
ction 5.4 and use of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF <an=
drew-ietf@liquid.tech> wrote:










Robert,


=C2=A0


I have to say that I have very similar readings on p=
arts of the draft.


=C2=A0


Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93


=C2=A0


5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem=
 to indicate AFI 1 / SAFI 4


5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading



5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows =
advertisement over SAFI 1, 2 or 4



5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refe=
rs to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.


=C2=A0


I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1=
 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agr=
ee with the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.=C2=A0 If I am wrong abou=
t 5.3
 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me understand this better, and then l=
ets potentially see if we can work up some wording that would clarify this =
if that is what is required.


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>

Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>;
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org; The IESG <ie=
sg@ietf.org>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Warren,




=C2=A0






Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start disc=
ussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what this document really de=
fines as I am sensing from your description there
 can be some disconnect (modulo some text may be indeed=C2=A0misleading in =
the draft).=C2=A0






=C2=A0






You said:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- a=
nd when they do, the SID=E2=80=99s

> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence avai=
lable to

> the public into perpetuity.






=C2=A0






I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Leaks do happen but only within global=C2=A0AFI/SAFI=
s. This draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not u=
sed to peer outside of a domain, collection of domains
 under same administration + of=C2=A0course=C2=A0inter-as also could happen=
.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






With that=C2=A0being said I do not see risk that due=
 to leaking there could be a situation where customer networks are exposed =
in any way externally - leaving alone that to even get
 at the=C2=A0transport level to the customer facing PE is also filtered and=
 never allowed from outside. But this is out of scope of this document as h=
ere the focus is not on underlay but overlay.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little =
piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to =
RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6 with both unicast
 and VPN AFs. That needs to be made clear that it is applicable to the latt=
er only. If other co-authors believe this is applicable=C2=A0to the former =
your DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via D=
atatracker <norepl=
y@ietf.org> wrote:






Warren Kumari has enter=
ed the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between P=
E routers

using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within=
 a

single provider network).=C2=A0 Precaution should be taken to ensure that t=
he BGP

service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sess=
ions

are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related t=
o (from

RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUS=
T NOT be

leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."



However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=E2=
=80=99s

contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available=
 to

the public into perpetuity.



While the document states that border filtering should protect against traf=
fic

injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there=
 is

the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets =
are

off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic=


into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to<=
br>
include the customer's networks too.



Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they h=
ave

to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any borde=
r

node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and mac=
hine

within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply sa=
ying

that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occ=
ur, when

the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seem=
s to

not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a mis=
sing

ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot i=
n, so

that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand=
 how

this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.


















_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess










-- 




















3D"Image
=



Gyan Mishra


Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0


Email
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com



M 301 502-1347






=C2=A0

























-- 


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 21:41:00 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Andrew - IETF 
Cc: BESS , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" ,  Robert Raszuk , The IESG , Warren Kumari ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Andrew,

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 5:13 PM Andrew - IETF 
wrote:

> Hi Gyan,
>
>
>
> A few clarifications on your clarifications =E2=80=93 see responses inlin=
e:
>
> RFC8402 Section 8.2 explicitly prohibits sending SRv6 traffic beyond the
> borders of a domain and over the general internet.  Making use of traffic
> destined for an address within the SRGB of another network isn=E2=80=99t =
permitted
> as per:
>
>  Gyan> The purpose of the domain boundary filters is to protect the SRv6
> nodes within the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80=9D by filtering external traffic=
 at the boundary
> edges any traffic destined to any IPv6 destination address within the SRG=
B
> or SRLB which would be underlay node connected interfaces IGP routable no=
t
> in BGP. This is done for any internet or intranet MPLS domain today to
> secure the domain trust boundary.
>
> Andrew> Can I presume when referring to the SRGB/SRLB here you are
> referring to the function part of the address or function+argument portio=
n
> of the SID=E2=80=99s?
>
>         Gyan> Yes

> I point out that the difference between SRv6 and MPLS/SR-MPLS is that you
> cannot =E2=80=9CRoute=E2=80=9D towards a label =E2=80=93 you can route to=
wards an IPv6 address.
>
>        Gyan> Understood

> If my assumptions are correct on the above =E2=80=93 there seems to be an
> assumption here that there is differentiation between the locator and the
> function+argument parts of the SID =E2=80=93 and these things are adverti=
sed
> separately and then some how assembled.
>
>        Gyan> That is all described in detail by this SRv6 BGP based
service overlay draft.  See the introduction which states the egress PE
signals the SRv6 service SID L3 service SID for BE service with BGP overlay
service route or for SRV6-TR the egress PE colors the overlay service route
with BGP tunnel encapsulation attribute color extended community SR-TE
candidate path steering.  So nothing is advertised separately and the
overlay egress PE signaling for SRv6-BE or SRv6-TE is how the SRv6 L3
service SID is FUNCT field is encoded with L3 vpn route equivalence to MPLS
label stack VPN label.

> Except =E2=80=93 I know of no draft text that says that, nor have I ever =
seen that
> behavior in the wild.  If my assumptions are accurate and that is what yo=
u
> are saying, can you point me to the text that defines this reassembly.
>
>

> As regards the BGP =E2=80=93 it goes further still:
>
> 
>
>
>
>  Gyan> This is not a BGP related just IGP underlay related.  BGP prefix
> sid attribute is used to encode SRv6 L3 service TLVs within the SR domain
> basically mapping the VPN and GRT BGP AFI/SAFI into the Function field of
> SRv6 SID equivalent to MPLS VPN service label bottom of stack.  However
> this is only within the SRv6 domain and once the packet leaves the SRv6
> domain it=E2=80=99s native BGP AFI/SAFI encoding and not in SRv6 SID.  So=
 even
> though SRv6 SID contains the BGP service label encoding it is not BGP
> overlay encoding that needs to be secured providing transitivity.
>
> Andrew> Again, I=E2=80=99m pretty unsure that I=E2=80=99m fully understan=
ding what you are
> saying here.  You seem to be saying that once a SID =E2=80=93 including i=
ts
> function/locator leave the domain =E2=80=93 they cease to be SID=E2=80=99=
s and are just
> normal addresses =E2=80=93 and only become SID=E2=80=99s by dint of the f=
act that they are
> inside the domain.  This would imply that a destination on the internet =
=E2=80=93
> suddenly transmutes to something else when it crosses the domain boundary=
.
> I would this is an unclear argument that seems to assume behavior not
> stated in this document, or other SRv6 documents that I have read =E2=80=
=93 and I=E2=80=99m
> not sure that I agree with this assertion (if I am interpreting you
> correctly).  I am drawing my interpretations here from the fact that you
> are bringing up the IGP =E2=80=93 and seem to be implying that a locator =
is
> announced and some how combined with IGP information, and there is some
> kinda split / reassembly of the destination.
>
>       Gyan> A good way to help describe what I am saying is that the BGP
AFI/SAFI 1/128 is identical between MPLS/SR-MPLS and SRv6.  What is
different is the data plane encoding where in MPLS the L3 VPN service label
is encoded in the Bottom of Stack, where with SRv6  L3 VPN label equivalent
is encoded in the SRv6 SID Function field.  When a packet egresses exits an
MPLS domain the  PE performs label disposition POP of the label stack and
similarly with SRv6 with the egress PE the SRv6 outer header with SRH is
removed so with that the SRv6 L3 Service TLV encoded in the BGP prefix SID
attribute is removed as well and the native IP packet os forwarded to the
CE.

Gyan> SR provides a means of stateless traffic steering in the underlay
> framework using IGP extension to provide the SID distribution  for both
> SR-MPLS and SRv6.  The SID distribution is done via the IGP extensions as
> part of the underlay.  The underlay is not routable reachable from outsid=
e
> the domain and even in MPLS TTL propagation is disabled to hide the
> visibility.  One big difference between MPLS and SRv6 is that the SR sour=
ce
> node encapsulates the PE-CE AC payload in IPv6 outer header for both VPN
> overlay and GRT traffic so they are both treated the same where MPLS with
> GRT the customer traffic is natively routed and no overlay encapsulation.
> However in both cases of course we have a BGP overlay RIB which carry the
> internet or intranet table and that is transitory traffic and is not
> filtered at the trust boundary.
>
> So the trust boundary filtering is primary goal is to protect the underla=
y
> nodes and not interfere with the transitory BGP routing reachability.
>
>
>
> Andrew> However, if all assumptions I have made in the above are correct,
> and we are back to border filtering, that still leaves the question of th=
e
> fact that the SID=E2=80=99s are exposed (albeit as addresses) =E2=80=93 w=
hich still leads
> to the problem of the fact that this seems to rely on perfect bgp filteri=
ng
> in combination with perfect border filtering, and a failure in either tha=
t
> could have catastrophic consequences.
>
>
     Gyan> As explained above no SRv6 SIDs are exposed.

> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From:* Gyan Mishra 
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 10:18 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk 
> *Cc:* Andrew - IETF ; BESS ;
> Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ; The IESG <
> iesg@ietf.org>; Warren Kumari ; bess-chairs@ietf.org;
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Robert / All
>
>
>
> For service providers and enterprises using GRT or VRF to carry the
> internet or intra internet  routing table using MPLS today or SR-MPLS tha=
t
> would like to use SRv6 to provide the same service.
>
>
>
> Section.  5.1 and 5.2 cover the VPN case in which the customer traffic is
> in VRF overlay and the SRv6 transport layer is a closed domain.
>
>
>
> Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop
> encoding.  In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=
=80=99s the
> customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as B=
GP
> leaks.
>
>
>
> So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used
> today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.
>
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed but =
just to
> tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain.
>
>
>
> As far as the SRv6 domain is concerned even with GRT the domain is still
> closed at the PE ingress and egress points which is where the concern is
> for BGP leaks.  The BGP Prefix SID encoding the SRv6 L3 service TLVs woul=
d,
> the encoding would only be present in the SRv6 SID Function field within
> the closed domain, and once you exit the SRv6 domain at the ingress or
> egress endpoints the SRv6 L3 service TLVs would now be carried natively i=
n
> BGP and not in the SRv6 BGP prefix SID encoding.
>
>
>
>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>
>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>
>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>
>    defined in [RFC4760 ] [=
RFC4659 ] [RFC8950 ] [RFC7432 ] [RFC4364 ]
>
>    [RFC9136 ] where applic=
able as described in Section 5  and Section 6 .
>
>
>
> So as far as SRv6 SID leaking there would not be any leaking outside the
> SRv6 domain.
>
>
>
> However as the GRT carry internet or intranet BGP RIB the SP AS is of
> course transitive so entire table is propagated.  That=E2=80=99s not a le=
ak.
>
>
>
> I think we just need to maybe tighten up the verbiage on securing the PE
> edges of the SRv6 domain.
>
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
>
> Gyan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Robert Raszuk  wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
>
>
> When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from section 2 which says:
>
>
>
> - - -
>
>
>
>    The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-
>    SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2
>    services.
>
>    o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>       SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received with a Layer
>       3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
>       [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY be encoded, but
>       not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.
>
>    o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>       SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
>       Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors
>       which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
>       End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.
>
>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>    defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
>    [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.
>
>    The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] with SRv6
>    is outside the scope of this document.
>
>
>
> - - -
>
>
>
> This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128 an=
d
> SAFI 70.
>
>
>
> To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the wild. Also SAFI
> 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.
>
>
>
> The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section 5.4 and use of
> global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1
>
>
>
> Many thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF 
> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> I have to say that I have very similar readings on parts of the draft.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem to indicate AFI 1 / =
SAFI 4
>
> 5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
>
> 5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows advertisement over SA=
FI 1, 2 or 4
>
> 5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refers to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.
>
>
>
> I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it=
 doesn=E2=80=99t
> =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agree with the thoughts expressed in Wa=
rrens
> Discuss.  If I am wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me
> understand this better, and then lets potentially see if we can work up
> some wording that would clarify this if that is what is required.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* iesg  *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
> *To:* Warren Kumari 
> *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ;
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <
> iesg@ietf.org>; BESS 
> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
> Hi Warren,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start discussing it perhaps it
> would be good to align on what this document really defines as I am sensi=
ng
> from your description there can be some disconnect (modulo some text may =
be
> indeed misleading in the draft).
>
>
>
> You said:
>
>
>
> > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
> > contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
> available to
> > the public into perpetuity.
>
>
>
> I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
>
>
>
> Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines
> extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not used to peer outside =
of
> a domain, collection of domains under same administration +
> of course inter-as also could happen.
>
>
>
> With that being said I do not see risk that due to leaking there could be
> a situation where customer networks are exposed in any way externally -
> leaving alone that to even get at the transport level to the customer
> facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from outside. But this is ou=
t
> of scope of this document as here the focus is not on underlay but overla=
y.
>
>
>
> Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little piece perhaps
> misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 whic=
h
> defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
> clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other co-authors belie=
ve
> this is applicable to the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be
> valid.
>
>
>
> Many thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE
> routers
> using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
> trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes
> within a
> single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that the
> BGP
> service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP
> sessions
> are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to
> (from
> RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST
> NOT be
> leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."
>
> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
> available to
> the public into perpetuity.
>
> While the document states that border filtering should protect against
> traffic
> injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure,
> there is
> the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bet=
s
> are
> off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traff=
ic
> into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface t=
o
> include the customer's networks too.
>
> Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they
> have
> to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any
> border
> node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and
> machine
> within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply
> saying
> that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occur=
,
> when
> the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from
> seems to
> not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a
> missing
> ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot in,
> so
> that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my
> understand how
> this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
>
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
> --
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] 
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
> --
>
> 
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
--=20



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi Andrew,

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 5:13 PM Andrew - I=
ETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech> wrote:











Hi Gyan,


=C2=A0


A few clarifications on your clarifications =E2=80=
=93 see responses inline:












RFC8402 Section 8.2 explicitly prohibits sending SRv=
6 traffic beyond the borders of a domain and over the general internet.=C2=
=A0 Making use of traffic destined for an address within
 the SRGB of another network isn=E2=80=99t permitted as per:<=
/p>

=C2=A0Gyan> The purpose of the domain boundary fi=
lters is to protect the SRv6 nodes within the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80=9D by=
 filtering external traffic at the boundary edges any traffic destined to
 any IPv6 destination address within the SRGB or SRLB which would be underl=
ay node connected interfaces IGP routable not in BGP. This is done for any =
internet or intranet MPLS domain today to secure the domain trust boundary.=



Andrew> Can I presume when referring to the SRGB/=
SRLB here you are referring to the function part of the address or function=
+argument portion of the SID=E2=80=99s?
<=
/div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 Gyan> Yes=C2=A0
=

 I point out that the
 difference between SRv6 and MPLS/SR-MPLS is that you cannot =E2=80=9CRoute=
=E2=80=9D towards a label =E2=80=93 you can route towards an IPv6 address.<=
/p>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> Understood




If my assumptions are correct on the ab=
ove =E2=80=93 there seems to be an assumption here that there is differenti=
ation between the locator and the function+argument parts of the SID =E2=80=
=93
 and these things are advertised separately and then some how assembled.=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> That is all described in de=
tail by this SRv6 BGP based service overlay draft.=C2=A0 See the introducti=
on which states the egress PE signals the SRv6 service SID L3 service SID f=
or BE service with BGP overlay service route or for SRV6-TR the egress PE c=
olors the overlay service route with BGP tunnel encapsulation attribute col=
or extended community SR-TE candidate path steering.=C2=A0 So nothing is ad=
vertised separately and the overlay egress PE signaling for SRv6-BE or SRv6=
-TE is how the SRv6 L3 service SID is FUNCT field is encoded with L3 vpn ro=
ute equivalence to MPLS label stack VPN label.
Except =E2=80=93 I know of n=
o draft text that says that, nor have I ever seen that behavior in the wild=
.=C2=A0 If my assumptions are accurate and that is what you are saying, can=
 you point me to the
 text that defines this reassembly.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
<=
div>
=



As regards the BGP =E2=80=93 it goes further still:<=
u>


<Snip>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0Gyan> This is not a BGP related just IGP un=
derlay related.=C2=A0 BGP prefix sid attribute is used to encode SRv6 L3 se=
rvice TLVs within the SR domain basically mapping the VPN and GRT
 BGP AFI/SAFI into the Function field of SRv6 SID equivalent to MPLS VPN se=
rvice label bottom of stack.=C2=A0 However this is only within the SRv6 dom=
ain and once the packet leaves the SRv6 domain it=E2=80=99s native BGP AFI/=
SAFI encoding and not in SRv6 SID.=C2=A0 So even though
 SRv6 SID contains the BGP service label encoding it is not BGP overlay enc=
oding that needs to be secured providing transitivity.


Andrew> Again, I=E2=80=99m pretty unsure that I=
=E2=80=99m fully understanding what you are saying here.=C2=A0 You seem to =
be saying that once a SID =E2=80=93 including its function/locator leave th=
e domain
 =E2=80=93 they cease to be SID=E2=80=99s and are just normal addresses =E2=
=80=93 and only become SID=E2=80=99s by dint of the fact that they are insi=
de the domain.=C2=A0 This would imply that a destination on the internet =
=E2=80=93 suddenly transmutes to something else when it crosses the domain =
boundary.
 I would this is an unclear argument that seems to assume behavior not stat=
ed in this document, or other SRv6 documents that I have read =E2=80=93 and=
 I=E2=80=99m not sure that I agree with this assertion (if I am interpretin=
g you correctly).=C2=A0 I am drawing my interpretations
 here from the fact that you are bringing up the IGP =E2=80=93 and seem to =
be implying that a locator is announced and some how combined with IGP info=
rmation, and there is some kinda split / reassembly of the destination.<=
/u>


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> A good way to=
 help describe what I am saying is that the BGP AFI/SAFI 1/128 is identical=
 between MPLS/SR-MPLS and SRv6.=C2=A0 What is different is the data plane e=
ncoding where in MPLS the L3 VPN service label is encoded in the Bottom of =
Stack, where with SRv6 =C2=A0L3 VPN label equivalent is encoded in the SRv6=
 SID Function field.=C2=A0 When a packet egresses exits an MPLS domain the =
=C2=A0PE performs label disposition POP of the label stack and similarly wi=
th SRv6 with the egress PE the SRv6 outer header with SRH is removed so wit=
h that the SRv6 L3 Service TLV encoded in the BGP prefix SID attribute is r=
emoved as well and the native IP packet os forwarded to the CE.

Gyan> SR provides a means of stateless traffic s=
teering in the underlay framework using IGP extension to provide the SID di=
stribution =C2=A0for both SR-MPLS and SRv6.=C2=A0 The SID distribution
 is done via the IGP extensions as part of the underlay.=C2=A0 The underlay=
 is not routable reachable from outside the domain and even in MPLS TTL pro=
pagation is disabled to hide the visibility.=C2=A0 One big difference betwe=
en MPLS and SRv6 is that the SR source node
 encapsulates the PE-CE AC payload in IPv6 outer header for both VPN overla=
y and GRT traffic so they are both treated the same where MPLS with GRT the=
 customer traffic is natively routed and no overlay encapsulation.=C2=A0 Ho=
wever in both cases of course we have
 a BGP overlay RIB which carry the internet or intranet table and that is t=
ransitory traffic and is not filtered at the trust boundary. =C2=A0<=
u>














So the trust boundary filtering is primary goal is t=
o protect the underlay nodes and not interfere with the transitory BGP rout=
ing reachability.


=C2=A0


Andrew> However, if all assumptions I have made i=
n the above are correct, and we are back to border filtering, that still le=
aves the question of the fact that the SID=E2=80=99s are exposed
 (albeit as addresses) =E2=80=93 which still leads to the problem of the fa=
ct that this seems to rely on perfect bgp filtering in combination with per=
fect border filtering, and a failure in either that could have catastrophic=
 consequences.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan=
> As explained above no SRv6 SIDs are exposed.


Thanks



=C2=A0


Andrew




On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 5:58 AM Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia=
.com> wrote:











Hi WG,


=C2=A0


This email starts a two-week Wo=
rking Group Last Call on
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 [1].


=C2=A0


This poll runs until Monday 14<=
sup>th February 2022.


=C2=A0


We are also polling for knowled=
ge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to this Document, to ensure that IPR=
 has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879,=
 3669 and 5378 for more details).


If you are listed as an Author =
or a Contributor of this document, please respond to this email and indicat=
e whether or not you are aware of any relevant undisclosed IPR. The Documen=
t won't progress without answers from
 all the Authors and Contributors.=C2=A0


There is currently no IPR discl=
osed.


=C2=A0


If you are not listed as an Aut=
hor or a Contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware =
of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.<=
/span>


=C2=A0


We are also polling for any exi=
sting implementation as per [2].=C2=A0Please indicate if you are aware of a=
ny implementations.


=C2=A0


Thank you,=



Matthew & Stephane


=C2=A0


[1]=C2=A0draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EV=
PN DF Election


[2]=C2=A0https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/m=
sg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw


=C2=A0


=C2=A0






_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess








=C2=A0




From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>


Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 10:18 PM

To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>

Cc: Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>; Bocci, Matthew (Nok=
ia - GB) <m=
atthew.bocci@nokia.com>;
 The IESG <iesg@ietf.=
org>; Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>;
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org; 
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-s=
rv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Hi Robert / All=C2=A0






=C2=A0






For service providers and enterprises using GRT or V=
RF to carry the internet or intra internet =C2=A0routing table using MPLS t=
oday or SR-MPLS that would like to use SRv6 to provide
 the same service.








=C2=A0






Section. =C2=A05.1 and 5.2 cover the VPN case in whi=
ch the customer traffic is in VRF overlay and the SRv6 transport layer is a=
 closed domain.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using R=
FC 5549 next hop encoding.=C2=A0 In this case using GRT transport underlay =
layer now carry=E2=80=99s the customer routes and that is what
 Warren and Andrew concern is as far as BGP leaks. =C2=A0






=C2=A0






So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protecti=
on mechanisms used today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT u=
se case.






=C2=A0






I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 shoul=
d not be allowed but just to tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain=
. =C2=A0






=C2=A0






As far as the SRv6 domain is concerned even with GRT=
 the domain is still closed at the PE ingress and egress points which is wh=
ere the concern is for BGP leaks.=C2=A0 The BGP Prefix
 SID encoding the SRv6 L3 service TLVs would, the encoding would only be pr=
esent in the SRv6 SID Function field within the closed domain, and once you=
 exit the SRv6 domain at the ingress or egress endpoints the SRv6 L3 servic=
e TLVs would now be carried natively
 in BGP and not in the SRv6 BGP prefix SID encoding.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0=C2=A0 When an egress PE is enabled =
for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,


=C2=A0=C2=A0 it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclos=
ed in SRv6 Service


=C2=A0=C2=A0 TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute atta=
ched to MP-BGP NLRIs


=C2=A0=C2=A0 defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]


=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC9136] where =
applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.


=C2=A0






So as far as SRv6 SID leaking there would not be any=
 leaking outside the SRv6 domain.






=C2=A0






However as the GRT carry internet or intranet BGP RI=
B the SP AS is of course transitive so entire table is propagated.=C2=A0 Th=
at=E2=80=99s not a leak.






=C2=A0






I think we just need to maybe tighten up the verbiag=
e on securing the PE edges of the SRv6 domain.






=C2=A0






Kind Regards=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Gyan






=C2=A0








=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net&=
gt; wrote:








Hi Andrew,




=C2=A0






When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text fr=
om=C2=A0section 2 which says:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as tw=
o new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0services.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L3 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received =
with a Layer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC=
8950]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC9136].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MA=
Y be encoded, but

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6=
, etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L2 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet =
VPN (EVPN)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 E=
ndpoint behaviors

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2,=
 End.DX2V,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-p=
lane,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Serv=
ice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP =
NLRIs

=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Secti=
on 6.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] wi=
th SRv6

=C2=A0 =C2=A0is outside the scope of this document.






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAF=
Is mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged i=
n the wild. Also SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed se=
ction 5.4 and use of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liqu=
id.tech> wrote:










Robert,


=C2=A0


I have to say that I have very similar readings on p=
arts of the draft.


=C2=A0


Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93


=C2=A0


5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem=
 to indicate AFI 1 / SAFI 4


5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading



5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows =
advertisement over SAFI 1, 2 or 4



5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refe=
rs to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.


=C2=A0


I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1=
 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agr=
ee with the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.=C2=A0 If I am wrong abou=
t 5.3
 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me understand this better, and then l=
ets potentially see if we can work up some wording that would clarify this =
if that is what is required.


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>

Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>;
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org; The IESG <ie=
sg@ietf.org>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Warren,




=C2=A0






Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start disc=
ussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what this document really de=
fines as I am sensing from your description there
 can be some disconnect (modulo some text may be indeed=C2=A0misleading in =
the draft).=C2=A0






=C2=A0






You said:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- a=
nd when they do, the SID=E2=80=99s

> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence avai=
lable to

> the public into perpetuity.






=C2=A0






I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Leaks do happen but only within global=C2=A0AFI/SAFI=
s. This draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not u=
sed to peer outside of a domain, collection of domains
 under same administration + of=C2=A0course=C2=A0inter-as also could happen=
.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






With that=C2=A0being said I do not see risk that due=
 to leaking there could be a situation where customer networks are exposed =
in any way externally - leaving alone that to even get
 at the=C2=A0transport level to the customer facing PE is also filtered and=
 never allowed from outside. But this is out of scope of this document as h=
ere the focus is not on underlay but overlay.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little =
piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to =
RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6 with both unicast
 and VPN AFs. That needs to be made clear that it is applicable to the latt=
er only. If other co-authors believe this is applicable=C2=A0to the former =
your DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via D=
atatracker <norepl=
y@ietf.org> wrote:






Warren Kumari has enter=
ed the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between P=
E routers

using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within=
 a

single provider network).=C2=A0 Precaution should be taken to ensure that t=
he BGP

service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sess=
ions

are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related t=
o (from

RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUS=
T NOT be

leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."



However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=E2=
=80=99s

contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available=
 to

the public into perpetuity.



While the document states that border filtering should protect against traf=
fic

injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there=
 is

the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets =
are

off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic=


into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to<=
br>
include the customer's networks too.



Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they h=
ave

to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any borde=
r

node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and mac=
hine

within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply sa=
ying

that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occ=
ur, when

the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seem=
s to

not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a mis=
sing

ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot i=
n, so

that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand=
 how

this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.














_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess










--





























3D"Image=















































Gyan Mishra


Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0


Email
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com<=
/u>


M 301 502-1347






=C2=A0






























-- 




















<=
/span>


Gyan Mishra


Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0


Email
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com



M 301 502-1347






=C2=A0
























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In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 23:14:55 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Andrew - IETF 
Cc: BESS , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" ,  Robert Raszuk , The IESG , Warren Kumari ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Andrew

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 9:41 PM Gyan Mishra  wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 5:13 PM Andrew - IETF 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gyan,
>>
>>
>>
>> A few clarifications on your clarifications =E2=80=93 see responses inli=
ne:
>>
>> RFC8402 Section 8.2 explicitly prohibits sending SRv6 traffic beyond the
>> borders of a domain and over the general internet.  Making use of traffi=
c
>> destined for an address within the SRGB of another network isn=E2=80=99t=
 permitted
>> as per:
>>
>>  Gyan> The purpose of the domain boundary filters is to protect the SRv6
>> nodes within the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80=9D by filtering external traffi=
c at the boundary
>> edges any traffic destined to any IPv6 destination address within the SR=
GB
>> or SRLB which would be underlay node connected interfaces IGP routable n=
ot
>> in BGP. This is done for any internet or intranet MPLS domain today to
>> secure the domain trust boundary.
>>
>> Andrew> Can I presume when referring to the SRGB/SRLB here you are
>> referring to the function part of the address or function+argument porti=
on
>> of the SID=E2=80=99s?
>>
>>         Gyan> Yes
>
>> I point out that the difference between SRv6 and MPLS/SR-MPLS is that yo=
u
>> cannot =E2=80=9CRoute=E2=80=9D towards a label =E2=80=93 you can route t=
owards an IPv6 address.
>>
>>        Gyan> Understood
>
>> If my assumptions are correct on the above =E2=80=93 there seems to be a=
n
>> assumption here that there is differentiation between the locator and th=
e
>> function+argument parts of the SID =E2=80=93 and these things are advert=
ised
>> separately and then some how assembled.
>>
>>        Gyan> That is all described in detail by this SRv6 BGP based
> service overlay draft.  See the introduction which states the egress PE
> signals the SRv6 service SID L3 service SID for BE service with BGP overl=
ay
> service route or for SRV6-TR the egress PE colors the overlay service rou=
te
> with BGP tunnel encapsulation attribute color extended community SR-TE
> candidate path steering.  So nothing is advertised separately and the
> overlay egress PE signaling for SRv6-BE or SRv6-TE is how the SRv6 L3
> service SID is FUNCT field is encoded with L3 vpn route equivalence to MP=
LS
> label stack VPN label.
>
>> Except =E2=80=93 I know of no draft text that says that, nor have I ever=
 seen
>> that behavior in the wild.  If my assumptions are accurate and that is w=
hat
>> you are saying, can you point me to the text that defines this reassembl=
y.
>>
>>
>
>> As regards the BGP =E2=80=93 it goes further still:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>  Gyan> This is not a BGP related just IGP underlay related.  BGP prefix
>> sid attribute is used to encode SRv6 L3 service TLVs within the SR domai=
n
>> basically mapping the VPN and GRT BGP AFI/SAFI into the Function field o=
f
>> SRv6 SID equivalent to MPLS VPN service label bottom of stack.  However
>> this is only within the SRv6 domain and once the packet leaves the SRv6
>> domain it=E2=80=99s native BGP AFI/SAFI encoding and not in SRv6 SID.  S=
o even
>> though SRv6 SID contains the BGP service label encoding it is not BGP
>> overlay encoding that needs to be secured providing transitivity.
>>
>> Andrew> Again, I=E2=80=99m pretty unsure that I=E2=80=99m fully understa=
nding what you
>> are saying here.  You seem to be saying that once a SID =E2=80=93 includ=
ing its
>> function/locator leave the domain =E2=80=93 they cease to be SID=E2=80=
=99s and are just
>> normal addresses =E2=80=93 and only become SID=E2=80=99s by dint of the =
fact that they are
>> inside the domain.  This would imply that a destination on the internet =
=E2=80=93
>> suddenly transmutes to something else when it crosses the domain boundar=
y.
>> I would this is an unclear argument that seems to assume behavior not
>> stated in this document, or other SRv6 documents that I have read =E2=80=
=93 and I=E2=80=99m
>> not sure that I agree with this assertion (if I am interpreting you
>> correctly).  I am drawing my interpretations here from the fact that you
>> are bringing up the IGP =E2=80=93 and seem to be implying that a locator=
 is
>> announced and some how combined with IGP information, and there is some
>> kinda split / reassembly of the destination.
>>
>>       Gyan> A good way to help describe what I am saying is that the BGP
> AFI/SAFI 1/128 is identical between MPLS/SR-MPLS and SRv6.  What is
> different is the data plane encoding where in MPLS the L3 VPN service lab=
el
> is encoded in the Bottom of Stack, where with SRv6  L3 VPN label equivale=
nt
> is encoded in the SRv6 SID Function field.  When a packet egresses exits =
an
> MPLS domain the  PE performs label disposition POP of the label stack and
> similarly with SRv6 with the egress PE the SRv6 outer header with SRH is
> removed so with that the SRv6 L3 Service TLV encoded in the BGP prefix SI=
D
> attribute is removed as well and the native IP packet os forwarded to the
> CE.
>

     Gyan> I described VPN overlay SAFI 128, however for both Global
Section 5.3 and 5.4 AFI 1 SAFI 1 and AFI 2 SAFI 1 unicast there is no label
so nothing encoded into the SRv6 SID FUNC field. For MPLS Global GRT their
is no encapsulation as it=E2=80=99s native  routing, however for SRv6 the s=
ource
node still performs encapsulation for both SRv6-BE w/o SRH and SRv6-TE w/
SRH.  Encapsulation at the source node is requirement for SRV6 for path
steering regardless of GRT or VPN overlay.

>
> Gyan> SR provides a means of stateless traffic steering in the underlay
>> framework using IGP extension to provide the SID distribution  for both
>> SR-MPLS and SRv6.  The SID distribution is done via the IGP extensions a=
s
>> part of the underlay.  The underlay is not routable reachable from outsi=
de
>> the domain and even in MPLS TTL propagation is disabled to hide the
>> visibility.  One big difference between MPLS and SRv6 is that the SR sou=
rce
>> node encapsulates the PE-CE AC payload in IPv6 outer header for both VPN
>> overlay and GRT traffic so they are both treated the same where MPLS wit=
h
>> GRT the customer traffic is natively routed and no overlay encapsulation=
.
>> However in both cases of course we have a BGP overlay RIB which carry th=
e
>> internet or intranet table and that is transitory traffic and is not
>> filtered at the trust boundary.
>>
>> So the trust boundary filtering is primary goal is to protect the
>> underlay nodes and not interfere with the transitory BGP routing
>> reachability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew> However, if all assumptions I have made in the above are correct=
,
>> and we are back to border filtering, that still leaves the question of t=
he
>> fact that the SID=E2=80=99s are exposed (albeit as addresses) =E2=80=93 =
which still leads
>> to the problem of the fact that this seems to rely on perfect bgp filter=
ing
>> in combination with perfect border filtering, and a failure in either th=
at
>> could have catastrophic consequences.
>>
>>
>      Gyan> As explained above no SRv6 SIDs are exposed.  As there is stil=
l
> encapsulation on SRv6 source node and decapsulation on egress PE just as =
we
> have with VPN SAFI 128 we don=E2=80=99t need border filtering at all due =
to this
> encapsulation and decapsulation.
>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Gyan Mishra 
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 10:18 PM
>> *To:* Robert Raszuk 
>> *Cc:* Andrew - IETF ; BESS ;
>> Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ; The IESG <
>> iesg@ietf.org>; Warren Kumari ; bess-chairs@ietf.org;
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Robert / All
>>
>>
>>
>> For service providers and enterprises using GRT or VRF to carry the
>> internet or intra internet  routing table using MPLS today or SR-MPLS th=
at
>> would like to use SRv6 to provide the same service.
>>
>>
>>
>> Section.  5.1 and 5.2 cover the VPN case in which the customer traffic i=
s
>> in VRF overlay and the SRv6 transport layer is a closed domain.
>>
>>
>>
>> Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop
>> encoding.  In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=
=80=99s the
>> customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as =
BGP
>> leaks.
>>
>>
>>
>> So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used
>> today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed but=
 just to
>> tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain.
>>
>>
>>
>> As far as the SRv6 domain is concerned even with GRT the domain is still
>> closed at the PE ingress and egress points which is where the concern is
>> for BGP leaks.  The BGP Prefix SID encoding the SRv6 L3 service TLVs wou=
ld,
>> the encoding would only be present in the SRv6 SID Function field within
>> the closed domain, and once you exit the SRv6 domain at the ingress or
>> egress endpoints the SRv6 L3 service TLVs would now be carried natively =
in
>> BGP and not in the SRv6 BGP prefix SID encoding.
>>
>>
>>
>>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>>
>>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>>
>>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>>
>>    defined in [RFC4760 ] =
[RFC4659 ] [RFC8950 ] [RFC7432 ] [RFC4364 ]
>>
>>    [RFC9136 ] where appli=
cable as described in Section 5  and Section 6 .
>>
>>
>>
>> So as far as SRv6 SID leaking there would not be any leaking outside the
>> SRv6 domain.
>>
>>
>>
>> However as the GRT carry internet or intranet BGP RIB the SP AS is of
>> course transitive so entire table is propagated.  That=E2=80=99s not a l=
eak.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think we just need to maybe tighten up the verbiage on securing the PE
>> edges of the SRv6 domain.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Gyan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Robert Raszuk  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>>
>>
>> When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from section 2 which says:
>>
>>
>>
>> - - -
>>
>>
>>
>>    The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-
>>    SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2
>>    services.
>>
>>    o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>>       SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received with a Layer
>>       3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
>>       [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY be encoded, but
>>       not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.
>>
>>    o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>>       SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
>>       Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors
>>       which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
>>       End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.
>>
>>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>>    defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
>>    [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.
>>
>>    The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] with SRv6
>>    is outside the scope of this document.
>>
>>
>>
>> - - -
>>
>>
>>
>> This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128
>> and SAFI 70.
>>
>>
>>
>> To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the wild. Also SAF=
I
>> 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section 5.4 and use of
>> global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have to say that I have very similar readings on parts of the draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93
>>
>>
>>
>> 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem to indicate AFI 1 /=
 SAFI 4
>>
>> 5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
>>
>> 5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows advertisement over S=
AFI 1, 2 or 4
>>
>> 5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refers to AFI 2 / SAFI 1=
.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 i=
t doesn=E2=80=99t
>> =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agree with the thoughts expressed in W=
arrens
>> Discuss.  If I am wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help m=
e
>> understand this better, and then lets potentially see if we can work up
>> some wording that would clarify this if that is what is required.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* iesg  *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
>> *To:* Warren Kumari 
>> *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ;
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <
>> iesg@ietf.org>; BESS 
>> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Warren,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start discussing it perhaps it
>> would be good to align on what this document really defines as I am sens=
ing
>> from your description there can be some disconnect (modulo some text may=
 be
>> indeed misleading in the draft).
>>
>>
>>
>> You said:
>>
>>
>>
>> > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the
>> SID=E2=80=99s
>> > contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
>> available to
>> > the public into perpetuity.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines
>> extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not used to peer outside=
 of
>> a domain, collection of domains under same administration +
>> of course inter-as also could happen.
>>
>>
>>
>> With that being said I do not see risk that due to leaking there could b=
e
>> a situation where customer networks are exposed in any way externally -
>> leaving alone that to even get at the transport level to the customer
>> facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from outside. But this is o=
ut
>> of scope of this document as here the focus is not on underlay but overl=
ay.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little piece perhaps
>> misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 whi=
ch
>> defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
>> clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other co-authors beli=
eve
>> this is applicable to the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be
>> valid.
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
>> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions=
/
>> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE
>> routers
>> using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
>> trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes
>> within a
>> single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that the
>> BGP
>> service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP
>> sessions
>> are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to
>> (from
>> RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST
>> NOT be
>> leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."
>>
>> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
>> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
>> available to
>> the public into perpetuity.
>>
>> While the document states that border filtering should protect against
>> traffic
>> injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure,
>> there is
>> the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all
>> bets are
>> off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject
>> traffic
>> into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface =
to
>> include the customer's networks too.
>>
>> Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, the=
y
>> have
>> to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any
>> border
>> node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and
>> machine
>> within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply
>> saying
>> that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't
>> occur, when
>> the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from
>> seems to
>> not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a
>> missing
>> ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot in=
,
>> so
>> that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my
>> understand how
>> this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BESS mailing list
>> BESS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>>
>> --
>>
>> [image: Image removed by sender.] 
>>
>> *Gyan Mishra*
>>
>> *Network Solutions Architect *
>>
>> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>>
>> *M 301 502-1347*
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> 
>>
>> *Gyan Mishra*
>>
>> *Network Solutions Architect *
>>
>> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>>
>> *M 301 502-1347*
>>
>>
>>
> --
>
> 
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions A**rchitect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>
>
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
> --



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Hi Andrew=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> I described VPN overlay SAFI 128, however for both Globa=
l Section 5.3 and 5.4 AFI 1 SAFI 1 and AFI 2 SAFI 1 unicast there is no lab=
el so nothing encoded into the SRv6 SID FUNC field. For MPLS Global GRT the=
ir is no encapsulation as it=E2=80=99s native =C2=A0routing, however for SR=
v6 the source node still performs encapsulation for both SRv6-BE w/o SRH an=
d SRv6-TE w/ SRH.=C2=A0 Encapsulation at the source node is requirement for=
 SRV6 for path steering regardless of GRT or VPN overlay.

=

Gyan> SR provides a means =
of stateless traffic steering in the underlay framework using IGP extension=
 to provide the SID distribution =C2=A0for both SR-MPLS and SRv6.=C2=A0 The=
 SID distribution
 is done via the IGP extensions as part of the underlay.=C2=A0 The underlay=
 is not routable reachable from outside the domain and even in MPLS TTL pro=
pagation is disabled to hide the visibility.=C2=A0 One big difference betwe=
en MPLS and SRv6 is that the SR source node
 encapsulates the PE-CE AC payload in IPv6 outer header for both VPN overla=
y and GRT traffic so they are both treated the same where MPLS with GRT the=
 customer traffic is natively routed and no overlay encapsulation.=C2=A0 Ho=
wever in both cases of course we have
 a BGP overlay RIB which carry the internet or intranet table and that is t=
ransitory traffic and is not filtered at the trust boundary. =C2=A0<=
u>














So the trust boundary filtering is primary goal is t=
o protect the underlay nodes and not interfere with the transitory BGP rout=
ing reachability.


=C2=A0


Andrew> However, if all assumptions I have made i=
n the above are correct, and we are back to border filtering, that still le=
aves the question of the fact that the SID=E2=80=99s are exposed
 (albeit as addresses) =E2=80=93 which still leads to the problem of the fa=
ct that this seems to rely on perfect bgp filtering in combination with per=
fect border filtering, and a failure in either that could have catastrophic=
 consequences.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan=
> As explained above no SRv6 SIDs are exposed.=C2=A0 As there is still e=
ncapsulation on SRv6 source node and decapsulation on egress PE just as we =
have with VPN SAFI 128 we don=E2=80=99t need border filtering at all due to=
 this encapsulation and decapsulation. =C2=A0


Thanks



=C2=A0


Andrew










=C2=A0




From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>


Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 10:18 PM

To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>

Cc: Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>; Bocci, Matthew (Nok=
ia - GB) <m=
atthew.bocci@nokia.com>;
 The IESG <iesg@ietf.=
org>; Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>;
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org; 
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-s=
rv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Hi Robert / All=C2=A0






=C2=A0






For service providers and enterprises using GRT or V=
RF to carry the internet or intra internet =C2=A0routing table using MPLS t=
oday or SR-MPLS that would like to use SRv6 to provide
 the same service.








=C2=A0






Section. =C2=A05.1 and 5.2 cover the VPN case in whi=
ch the customer traffic is in VRF overlay and the SRv6 transport layer is a=
 closed domain.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using R=
FC 5549 next hop encoding.=C2=A0 In this case using GRT transport underlay =
layer now carry=E2=80=99s the customer routes and that is what
 Warren and Andrew concern is as far as BGP leaks. =C2=A0






=C2=A0






So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protecti=
on mechanisms used today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT u=
se case.






=C2=A0






I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 shoul=
d not be allowed but just to tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain=
. =C2=A0






=C2=A0






As far as the SRv6 domain is concerned even with GRT=
 the domain is still closed at the PE ingress and egress points which is wh=
ere the concern is for BGP leaks.=C2=A0 The BGP Prefix
 SID encoding the SRv6 L3 service TLVs would, the encoding would only be pr=
esent in the SRv6 SID Function field within the closed domain, and once you=
 exit the SRv6 domain at the ingress or egress endpoints the SRv6 L3 servic=
e TLVs would now be carried natively
 in BGP and not in the SRv6 BGP prefix SID encoding.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0=C2=A0 When an egress PE is enabled =
for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,


=C2=A0=C2=A0 it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclos=
ed in SRv6 Service


=C2=A0=C2=A0 TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute atta=
ched to MP-BGP NLRIs


=C2=A0=C2=A0 defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432<=
/a>] [RFC4364]


=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC9136] where =
applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.


=C2=A0






So as far as SRv6 SID leaking there would not be any=
 leaking outside the SRv6 domain.






=C2=A0






However as the GRT carry internet or intranet BGP RI=
B the SP AS is of course transitive so entire table is propagated.=C2=A0 Th=
at=E2=80=99s not a leak.






=C2=A0






I think we just need to maybe tighten up the verbiag=
e on securing the PE edges of the SRv6 domain.






=C2=A0






Kind Regards=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Gyan






=C2=A0








=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net&=
gt; wrote:








Hi Andrew,




=C2=A0






When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text fr=
om=C2=A0section 2 which says:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as tw=
o new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0services.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L3 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received =
with a Layer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC=
8950]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC9136].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MA=
Y be encoded, but

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6=
, etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L2 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet =
VPN (EVPN)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 E=
ndpoint behaviors

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2,=
 End.DX2V,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-p=
lane,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Serv=
ice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP =
NLRIs

=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Secti=
on 6.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] wi=
th SRv6

=C2=A0 =C2=A0is outside the scope of this document.






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAF=
Is mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged i=
n the wild. Also SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed se=
ction 5.4 and use of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liqu=
id.tech> wrote:










Robert,


=C2=A0


I have to say that I have very similar readings on p=
arts of the draft.


=C2=A0


Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93


=C2=A0


5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem=
 to indicate AFI 1 / SAFI 4


5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading



5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows =
advertisement over SAFI 1, 2 or 4



5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refe=
rs to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.


=C2=A0


I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1=
 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agr=
ee with the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.=C2=A0 If I am wrong abou=
t 5.3
 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me understand this better, and then l=
ets potentially see if we can work up some wording that would clarify this =
if that is what is required.


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>

Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>;
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org; The IESG <ie=
sg@ietf.org>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Warren,




=C2=A0






Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start disc=
ussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what this document really de=
fines as I am sensing from your description there
 can be some disconnect (modulo some text may be indeed=C2=A0misleading in =
the draft).=C2=A0






=C2=A0






You said:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- a=
nd when they do, the SID=E2=80=99s

> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence avai=
lable to

> the public into perpetuity.






=C2=A0






I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Leaks do happen but only within global=C2=A0AFI/SAFI=
s. This draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not u=
sed to peer outside of a domain, collection of domains
 under same administration + of=C2=A0course=C2=A0inter-as also could happen=
.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






With that=C2=A0being said I do not see risk that due=
 to leaking there could be a situation where customer networks are exposed =
in any way externally - leaving alone that to even get
 at the=C2=A0transport level to the customer facing PE is also filtered and=
 never allowed from outside. But this is out of scope of this document as h=
ere the focus is not on underlay but overlay.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little =
piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to =
RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6 with both unicast
 and VPN AFs. That needs to be made clear that it is applicable to the latt=
er only. If other co-authors believe this is applicable=C2=A0to the former =
your DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via D=
atatracker <norepl=
y@ietf.org> wrote:






Warren Kumari has enter=
ed the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between P=
E routers

using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within=
 a

single provider network).=C2=A0 Precaution should be taken to ensure that t=
he BGP

service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sess=
ions

are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related t=
o (from

RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUS=
T NOT be

leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."



However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=E2=
=80=99s

contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available=
 to

the public into perpetuity.



While the document states that border filtering should protect against traf=
fic

injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there=
 is

the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets =
are

off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic=


into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to<=
br>
include the customer's networks too.



Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they h=
ave

to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any borde=
r

node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and mac=
hine

within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply sa=
ying

that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occ=
ur, when

the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seem=
s to

not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a mis=
sing

ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot i=
n, so

that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand=
 how

this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.














_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess










--





























3D"Image=















































Gyan Mishra


Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0


Email
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com<=
/u>


M 301 502-1347






=C2=A0






























-- 






















Gyan Mishra


Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0


Email
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com



M 301 502-1347






=C2=A0





















On Sat, Feb 12, 2022=
 at 9:41 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabu=
sagsm@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Hi Andrew,

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 5:13 PM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ie=
tf@liquid.tech> wrote:











Hi Gyan,


=C2=A0


A few clarifications on your clarifications =E2=80=
=93 see responses inline:












RFC8402 Section 8.2 explicitly prohibits sending SRv=
6 traffic beyond the borders of a domain and over the general internet.=C2=
=A0 Making use of traffic destined for an address within
 the SRGB of another network isn=E2=80=99t permitted as per:<=
/p>

=C2=A0Gyan> The purpose of the domain boundary fi=
lters is to protect the SRv6 nodes within the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80=9D by=
 filtering external traffic at the boundary edges any traffic destined to
 any IPv6 destination address within the SRGB or SRLB which would be underl=
ay node connected interfaces IGP routable not in BGP. This is done for any =
internet or intranet MPLS domain today to secure the domain trust boundary.=



Andrew> Can I presume when referring to the SRGB/=
SRLB here you are referring to the function part of the address or function=
+argument portion of the SID=E2=80=99s?
<=
/div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 Gyan> Yes=C2=A0
 I point out that the
 difference between SRv6 and MPLS/SR-MPLS is that you cannot =E2=80=9CRoute=
=E2=80=9D towards a label =E2=80=93 you can route towards an IPv6 address.<=
/p>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> Understood




If my assumptions are correct on the ab=
ove =E2=80=93 there seems to be an assumption here that there is differenti=
ation between the locator and the function+argument parts of the SID =E2=80=
=93
 and these things are advertised separately and then some how assembled.=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> That is all described in de=
tail by this SRv6 BGP based service overlay draft.=C2=A0 See the introducti=
on which states the egress PE signals the SRv6 service SID L3 service SID f=
or BE service with BGP overlay service route or for SRV6-TR the egress PE c=
olors the overlay service route with BGP tunnel encapsulation attribute col=
or extended community SR-TE candidate path steering.=C2=A0 So nothing is ad=
vertised separately and the overlay egress PE signaling for SRv6-BE or SRv6=
-TE is how the SRv6 L3 service SID is FUNCT field is encoded with L3 vpn ro=
ute equivalence to MPLS label stack VPN label.
Except =E2=80=93 I know of no draft text =
that says that, nor have I ever seen that behavior in the wild.=C2=A0 If my=
 assumptions are accurate and that is what you are saying, can you point me=
 to the
 text that defines this reassembly.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=



As regards the BGP =E2=80=93 it goes further still:<=
u>


<Snip>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0Gyan> This is not a BGP related just IGP un=
derlay related.=C2=A0 BGP prefix sid attribute is used to encode SRv6 L3 se=
rvice TLVs within the SR domain basically mapping the VPN and GRT
 BGP AFI/SAFI into the Function field of SRv6 SID equivalent to MPLS VPN se=
rvice label bottom of stack.=C2=A0 However this is only within the SRv6 dom=
ain and once the packet leaves the SRv6 domain it=E2=80=99s native BGP AFI/=
SAFI encoding and not in SRv6 SID.=C2=A0 So even though
 SRv6 SID contains the BGP service label encoding it is not BGP overlay enc=
oding that needs to be secured providing transitivity.


Andrew> Again, I=E2=80=99m pretty unsure that I=
=E2=80=99m fully understanding what you are saying here.=C2=A0 You seem to =
be saying that once a SID =E2=80=93 including its function/locator leave th=
e domain
 =E2=80=93 they cease to be SID=E2=80=99s and are just normal addresses =E2=
=80=93 and only become SID=E2=80=99s by dint of the fact that they are insi=
de the domain.=C2=A0 This would imply that a destination on the internet =
=E2=80=93 suddenly transmutes to something else when it crosses the domain =
boundary.
 I would this is an unclear argument that seems to assume behavior not stat=
ed in this document, or other SRv6 documents that I have read =E2=80=93 and=
 I=E2=80=99m not sure that I agree with this assertion (if I am interpretin=
g you correctly).=C2=A0 I am drawing my interpretations
 here from the fact that you are bringing up the IGP =E2=80=93 and seem to =
be implying that a locator is announced and some how combined with IGP info=
rmation, and there is some kinda split / reassembly of the destination.<=
/u>


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> A good way to=
 help describe what I am saying is that the BGP AFI/SAFI 1/128 is identical=
 between MPLS/SR-MPLS and SRv6.=C2=A0 What is different is the data plane e=
ncoding where in MPLS the L3 VPN service label is encoded in the Bottom of =
Stack, where with SRv6 =C2=A0L3 VPN label equivalent is encoded in the SRv6=
 SID Function field.=C2=A0 When a packet egresses exits an MPLS domain the =
=C2=A0PE performs label disposition POP of the label stack and similarly wi=
th SRv6 with the egress PE the SRv6 outer header with SRH is removed so wit=
h that the SRv6 L3 Service TLV encoded in the BGP prefix SID attribute is r=
emoved as well and the native IP packet os forwarded to the CE.
=




-- 

Gyan Mishra
Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0
Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
M 301 502-1347




-- 


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 23:47:22 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Robert Raszuk 
Cc: Andrew - IETF , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , The IESG , Warren Kumari , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Robert

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 4:23 PM Robert Raszuk  wrote:

> Gyan,
>
> Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop
>> encoding.  In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=
=80=99s the
>> customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as =
BGP
>> leaks.
>>
>
> I would have the same concern so would VPN customers. No one is selling L=
2
> or L3 VPN service to them distributing their reachability in the global
> routing table. They can do that all by themselves and there is lot's of
> really solid tools or products to do that already without being locked to=
 a
> single telco.
>

Gyan> MPLS provides the capability for GRT native routing  SAFI 1 as well
as SAFI 128, so in my opinion both should be supported by SRV6 as operators
look to use SRv6 for a variety of use cases. That=E2=80=99s my point as the=
re
should be complete feature parity between MPLS and SRv6 as to AFI / SAFI
support.  Global Internet routing would not be the best use case for SAFI 1
GRT due to the attack vector - agreed, but enterprise networks with
internal customers where there is a trust level is a huge use case.

>
> So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used
>> today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.
>>
>
> Not possible. It is not about filtering ... it is all about using globall=
y
> routable SAFI vs private SAFIs to distribute customer's reachability, IMO
> that should still be OTT only.
>

    Gyan> As SRv6 source node is requirement to encapsulation with IPv6
outer header and decapsulation at egress PE for SRv6-BE and SRv6-TE path
steering the security issue brought up related to 5.3 and 5.4 is not an
issue requiring filtering per RFC 8402.  So routable and private SAFI
scenario would be the same now due to encapsulation overlay for both.  Do
you agree ?

>
> I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed but =
just to
>> tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain.
>>
>
> BGP filtering or policy is in hands of many people. As has been proven yo=
u
> can not tighten them strong enough not to leak. The only natural way to
> tighten them is to use different plane to distribute private information
> what in this context means at least different BGP SAFI.
>
> So no - I do not agree with your observations.
>

   Gyan> I am not promoting use of SAFI 1 however I SRv6 should provide
complete parity with MPLS to support both SAFI 1 and 128. There  are plenty
of use cases for SAFI 1 and it should be supported with SRv6.

>
> However I am for providing overlay reachability over global IPv6 Internet
> to interconnect customer sites. But routing within those sites should not
> be traversing Internet routers and using SAFI 1.
>
> Rgs,
> Robert.
>
> --



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

--00000000000088606105d7deff7d
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Hi=C2=A0Robert

On Sat, Fe=
b 12, 2022 at 4:23 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Gyan,

Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option=
 and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop encoding.=C2=A0 In this case using GRT tra=
nsport underlay layer now carry=E2=80=99s the customer routes and that is w=
hat Warren and Andrew concern is as far as BGP leaks. =C2=A0

I would have the same concern so would VPN customer=
s. No one is selling L2 or L3 VPN service to them=C2=A0distributing=C2=A0th=
eir reachability in the global routing table. They can do that all by thems=
elves and there is lot's of really solid tools or products to do that a=
lready without being locked to a single telco.=C2=A0

Gyan> M=
PLS provides the capability for GRT native routing =C2=A0SAFI 1 as well as =
SAFI 128, so in my opinion both should be supported by SRV6 as operators lo=
ok to use SRv6 for a variety of use cases. That=E2=80=99s my point as there=
 should be complete feature parity between MPLS and SRv6 as to AFI / SAFI s=
upport.=C2=A0 Global Internet routing would not be the best use case for SA=
FI 1 GRT due to the attack vector - agreed, but enterprise networks with in=
ternal customers where there is a trust level is a huge use case. =C2=A0
=


S=
o when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used today=
 for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.

Not possible. It is not about=C2=A0filtering ...=
 it is all about using globally routable SAFI vs private SAFIs to distribut=
e customer's reachability, IMO that should still be OTT only.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> As SRv6 source node is requirement to enca=
psulation with IPv6 outer header and decapsulation at egress PE for SRv6-BE=
 and SRv6-TE path steering the security issue brought up related to 5.3 and=
 5.4 is not an issue requiring filtering per RFC 8402.=C2=A0 So routable an=
d private SAFI scenario would be the same now due to encapsulation overlay =
for both.=C2=A0 Do you agree ?

I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or =
5.4 should not be allowed but just to tighten up verbiage as far securing t=
he domain.=C2=A0=C2=A0

BGP filter=
ing or policy is in hands of many people. As has been proven you can not ti=
ghten them strong enough=C2=A0not to leak. The only natural way to tighten =
them is to use different=C2=A0plane to distribute private information what=
=C2=A0in this=C2=A0context means=C2=A0at=C2=A0least different BGP SAFI.=C2=
=A0

So no - I do not agree with your observations.=
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> I am not promoting use of SAFI 1 h=
owever I SRv6 should provide complete parity with MPLS to support both SAFI=
 1 and 128. There =C2=A0are plenty of use cases for SAFI 1 and it should be=
 supported with SRv6. =C2=A0

However I am for providing overlay reachabi=
lity over global IPv6 Internet to interconnect customer sites. But routing =
within those sites should not be traversing Internet routers and using SAFI=
 1.=C2=A0

Rgs,
Robert.





-- 
=

Gyan Mishra
Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0<=
/p>
Email gyan.s.mishra@ver=
izon.com<=
br>
M 301 502-1347




--00000000000088606105d7deff7d--


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References: <164462070317.8057.6829026572175337017@ietfa.amsl.com>      
In-Reply-To: 
From: Robert Raszuk 
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 13:48:06 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: Gyan Mishra 
Cc: Andrew - IETF , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , The IESG , Warren Kumari , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000076342705d7e5b62c"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Gyan,

MPLS is never sent in SAFI 1.

Thx,
R.

On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 5:47 AM Gyan Mishra  wrote:

> Hi Robert
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 4:23 PM Robert Raszuk  wrote:
>
>> Gyan,
>>
>> Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop
>>> encoding.  In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=
=80=99s the
>>> customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as=
 BGP
>>> leaks.
>>>
>>
>> I would have the same concern so would VPN customers. No one is selling
>> L2 or L3 VPN service to them distributing their reachability in the glob=
al
>> routing table. They can do that all by themselves and there is lot's of
>> really solid tools or products to do that already without being locked t=
o a
>> single telco.
>>
>
> Gyan> MPLS provides the capability for GRT native routing  SAFI 1 as well
> as SAFI 128, so in my opinion both should be supported by SRV6 as operato=
rs
> look to use SRv6 for a variety of use cases. That=E2=80=99s my point as t=
here
> should be complete feature parity between MPLS and SRv6 as to AFI / SAFI
> support.  Global Internet routing would not be the best use case for SAFI=
 1
> GRT due to the attack vector - agreed, but enterprise networks with
> internal customers where there is a trust level is a huge use case.
>
>>
>> So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used
>>> today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.
>>>
>>
>> Not possible. It is not about filtering ... it is all about using
>> globally routable SAFI vs private SAFIs to distribute customer's
>> reachability, IMO that should still be OTT only.
>>
>
>     Gyan> As SRv6 source node is requirement to encapsulation with IPv6
> outer header and decapsulation at egress PE for SRv6-BE and SRv6-TE path
> steering the security issue brought up related to 5.3 and 5.4 is not an
> issue requiring filtering per RFC 8402.  So routable and private SAFI
> scenario would be the same now due to encapsulation overlay for both.  Do
> you agree ?
>
>>
>> I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed but=
 just to
>>> tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain.
>>>
>>
>> BGP filtering or policy is in hands of many people. As has been proven
>> you can not tighten them strong enough not to leak. The only natural way=
 to
>> tighten them is to use different plane to distribute private information
>> what in this context means at least different BGP SAFI.
>>
>> So no - I do not agree with your observations.
>>
>
>    Gyan> I am not promoting use of SAFI 1 however I SRv6 should provide
> complete parity with MPLS to support both SAFI 1 and 128. There  are plen=
ty
> of use cases for SAFI 1 and it should be supported with SRv6.
>
>>
>> However I am for providing overlay reachability over global IPv6 Interne=
t
>> to interconnect customer sites. But routing within those sites should no=
t
>> be traversing Internet routers and using SAFI 1.
>>
>> Rgs,
>> Robert.
>>
>> --
>
> 
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions A**rchitect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>
>
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>

--00000000000076342705d7e5b62c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Gyan,

MPLS is never sent in SAFI 1.=C2=
=A0

Thx,
R.

On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 5:47 A=
M Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmai=
l.com> wrote:
Hi=C2=A0Robert

On Sa=
t, Feb 12, 2022 at 4:23 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Gyan,
=


Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and=
 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop encoding.=C2=A0 In this case using GRT transpo=
rt underlay layer now carry=E2=80=99s the customer routes and that is what =
Warren and Andrew concern is as far as BGP leaks. =C2=A0
=


I would have the same concern so would VPN customers. N=
o one is selling L2 or L3 VPN service to them=C2=A0distributing=C2=A0their =
reachability in the global routing table. They can do that all by themselve=
s and there is lot's of really solid tools or products to do that alrea=
dy without being locked to a single telco.=C2=A0

Gyan> MPLS =
provides the capability for GRT native routing =C2=A0SAFI 1 as well as SAFI=
 128, so in my opinion both should be supported by SRV6 as operators look t=
o use SRv6 for a variety of use cases. That=E2=80=99s my point as there sho=
uld be complete feature parity between MPLS and SRv6 as to AFI / SAFI suppo=
rt.=C2=A0 Global Internet routing would not be the best use case for SAFI 1=
 GRT due to the attack vector - agreed, but enterprise networks with intern=
al customers where there is a trust level is a huge use case. =C2=A0
<=
/div>

So when GRT is=
 used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used today for MPLS and=
 SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.
<=
br>
Not possible. It is not about=C2=A0filtering ... it is all ab=
out using globally routable SAFI vs private SAFIs to distribute customer=
9;s reachability, IMO that should still be OTT only.=C2=A0

=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> As SRv6 source node is requirement to encapsulation wit=
h IPv6 outer header and decapsulation at egress PE for SRv6-BE and SRv6-TE =
path steering the security issue brought up related to 5.3 and 5.4 is not a=
n issue requiring filtering per RFC 8402.=C2=A0 So routable and private SAF=
I scenario would be the same now due to encapsulation overlay for both.=C2=
=A0 Do you agree ?

I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be al=
lowed but just to tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0

BGP filtering or policy is in=
 hands of many people. As has been proven you can not tighten them strong e=
nough=C2=A0not to leak. The only natural way to tighten them is to use diff=
erent=C2=A0plane to distribute private information what=C2=A0in this=C2=A0c=
ontext means=C2=A0at=C2=A0least different BGP SAFI.=C2=A0

So no - I do not agree with your observations.=C2=A0

=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> I am not promoting use of SAFI 1 however I SRv6 shoul=
d provide complete parity with MPLS to support both SAFI 1 and 128. There =
=C2=A0are plenty of use cases for SAFI 1 and it should be supported with SR=
v6. =C2=A0

However I am for providing o=
verlay reachability over global IPv6 Internet to interconnect customer site=
s. But routing within those sites should not be traversing Internet routers=
 and using SAFI 1.=C2=A0

Rgs,
Robert.




-- 



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From: Andrew - IETF 
To: Robert Raszuk , Gyan Mishra 
CC: Andrew - IETF , BESS , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , The IESG , Warren Kumari , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Robert Raszuk 
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 15:25:19 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: Andrew - IETF 
Cc: Gyan Mishra , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , The IESG , Warren Kumari , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Andrew,

Most of what you say is true, so is my statement that MPLS labels are never
carried in SAFI 1 in BGP.

However, let me explain why I think a bit different view may work better
here ...

First let's clearly divide MPLS labels used for transport (which create
actual LSPs) from MPLS labels used for services (which are used to demux
packets at the egress PEs into appropriate context tables - typically VRFs
but not only (can be directly CEs too))

So the draft in the discussion is about overlay VPN services and therefore
the analogy made to MPLS labels are only related to SAFI 128 or SAFI 70.
Nothing here travels in unicast SAFI 1 nor in any IGP. So in the context of
this draft we should never allow to put the new attribute neither in SAFI 1
nor even SAFI 4.

But now comes the part which makes this discussion mangled ... unlike in
MPLS where LSPs need to be signalled in SRv6 you do not need any signalling
and IPv6 reachability is all that is needed for transport. So in SRv6 what
is in MPLS world signalled in LDP or RSVP-TE or SAFI 4 is indeed carried in
AFI 2 & SAFI 1.  /* SAFI 4 comes helpful when you build hierarchical LSPs
but in this discussion it is completely irrelevant. */

So I can see why some people may have thought oh since transport in SRv6
comes for free let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes
I can see that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to
enable), but I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here. This
comes as a consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI
(perhaps new format and new SAFI) to an attribute.

Thx,
R.





On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 2:50 PM Andrew - IETF 
wrote:

> +1
>
>
>
> This is something I was a little confused about since its been referenced
> in these emails time and again, and I was wondering if I had missed
> something, but, I=E2=80=99ve checked to be 100%  certain, RFC8950 which i=
s what
> this document refers to explicitly states that the NLRI encoding  of the
> destination must not change =E2=80=93 and since the IPv4 NLRI leaves no p=
rovision
> for labels =E2=80=93 and  makes it clear that SAFI 4 is used for MPLS =E2=
=80=93 MPLS
> doesn=E2=80=99t fall into SAFI 1.
>
> In fact, what is described in 5.3 only results from the nature of SRv6, i=
t
> states:
>
>
>
>    SRv6 Service SID is encoded as part of the SRv6 L3 Service TLV.  The
>
>    SRv6 Endpoint behavior of the SRv6 SID is entirely up to the
>
>    originator of the advertisement.  In practice, the SRv6 Endpoint
>
>    behavior is End.DX4 or End.DT4.
>
>
>
> Since 5.3 can operate in SAFI 1 (it explicitly refers to Global IPv4 over
> SRv6 core =E2=80=93 which by correlation to 8950 is SAFI 1) and based on =
the
> wording of the above, this actually puts MPLS type functionality into SAF=
I
> 1 where it never was before, by using the SID as a normal address which i=
s
> then dealt with as a SID inside the domain.  But no =E2=80=93 this is not=
 providing
> equal functionality for MPLS =E2=80=93 this is extending MPLS style funct=
ionality
> into SAFI 1, which, if my reading of Warren=E2=80=99s discuss is accurate=
, is
> pretty much the essence of the problem.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert Raszuk 
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 13, 2022 3:48 PM
> *To:* Gyan Mishra 
> *Cc:* Andrew - IETF ; BESS ;
> Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ; The IESG <
> iesg@ietf.org>; Warren Kumari ; bess-chairs@ietf.org;
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
> Gyan,
>
>
>
> MPLS is never sent in SAFI 1.
>
>
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 5:47 AM Gyan Mishra  wrote=
:
>
> Hi Robert
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 4:23 PM Robert Raszuk  wrote:
>
> Gyan,
>
>
>
> Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop
> encoding.  In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=
=80=99s the
> customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as B=
GP
> leaks.
>
>
>
> I would have the same concern so would VPN customers. No one is selling L=
2
> or L3 VPN service to them distributing their reachability in the global
> routing table. They can do that all by themselves and there is lot's of
> really solid tools or products to do that already without being locked to=
 a
> single telco.
>
>
>
> Gyan> MPLS provides the capability for GRT native routing  SAFI 1 as well
> as SAFI 128, so in my opinion both should be supported by SRV6 as operato=
rs
> look to use SRv6 for a variety of use cases. That=E2=80=99s my point as t=
here
> should be complete feature parity between MPLS and SRv6 as to AFI / SAFI
> support.  Global Internet routing would not be the best use case for SAFI=
 1
> GRT due to the attack vector - agreed, but enterprise networks with
> internal customers where there is a trust level is a huge use case.
>
>
>
> So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used
> today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.
>
>
>
> Not possible. It is not about filtering ... it is all about using globall=
y
> routable SAFI vs private SAFIs to distribute customer's reachability, IMO
> that should still be OTT only.
>
>
>
>     Gyan> As SRv6 source node is requirement to encapsulation with IPv6
> outer header and decapsulation at egress PE for SRv6-BE and SRv6-TE path
> steering the security issue brought up related to 5.3 and 5.4 is not an
> issue requiring filtering per RFC 8402.  So routable and private SAFI
> scenario would be the same now due to encapsulation overlay for both.  Do
> you agree ?
>
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed but =
just to
> tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain.
>
>
>
> BGP filtering or policy is in hands of many people. As has been proven yo=
u
> can not tighten them strong enough not to leak. The only natural way to
> tighten them is to use different plane to distribute private information
> what in this context means at least different BGP SAFI.
>
>
>
> So no - I do not agree with your observations.
>
>
>
>    Gyan> I am not promoting use of SAFI 1 however I SRv6 should provide
> complete parity with MPLS to support both SAFI 1 and 128. There  are plen=
ty
> of use cases for SAFI 1 and it should be supported with SRv6.
>
>
>
> However I am for providing overlay reachability over global IPv6 Internet
> to interconnect customer sites. But routing within those sites should not
> be traversing Internet routers and using SAFI 1.
>
>
>
> Rgs,
> Robert.
>
>
>
> --
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] 
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
>

--00000000000024feb305d7e7126e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi Andrew,=C2=A0

Most of what you say i=
s true, so is my statement that MPLS labels are never carried in SAFI 1 in =
BGP.=C2=A0

However, let me explain why I think a b=
it different=C2=A0view=C2=A0may work better here ...

First let's clearly divide MPLS labels used for transport (which cre=
ate actual LSPs) from MPLS labels used for services (which are used to demu=
x packets at the egress PEs into appropriate context tables - typically VRF=
s but not only (can be directly CEs too))

So the d=
raft in the discussion is about overlay VPN services and therefore the anal=
ogy made to MPLS labels are only related to SAFI 128 or SAFI 70. Nothing he=
re travels in unicast SAFI 1 nor in any IGP. So in the context of this draf=
t we should never allow to put the new attribute neither in SAFI 1 nor even=
=C2=A0SAFI 4.=C2=A0

But now comes the part which m=
akes this discussion mangled ... unlike in MPLS where LSPs need to be signa=
lled in SRv6 you do not need any signalling and IPv6 reachability is all th=
at is needed for transport. So in SRv6 what is in MPLS world signalled in L=
DP or RSVP-TE or SAFI 4 is indeed carried in AFI 2 & SAFI 1.=C2=A0 /* S=
AFI 4 comes helpful when you build hierarchical=C2=A0LSPs but in this discu=
ssion it is completely irrelevant. */

So I can see=
 why some people may have thought oh since transport in SRv6 comes for free=
 let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes I can see=
 that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to enable),=
 but I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here. This comes as a =
consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI (perhaps new form=
at and new SAFI) to an attribute.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.=







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In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 13:21:10 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Robert Raszuk 
Cc: Andrew - IETF , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , The IESG , Warren Kumari , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Robert

I am not saying MPLS is sent in SAFI 1.

Let me try to explain.

In the use case we are discussing in section 5.3 and 5.4  is when there is
no VPN overlay as the PE-CE AC sits in the global routing table native BGP
unlabeled prefixes and the label stack is just a single label deep with the
topmost transport label.  In that scenario 5.4 is IPv6 unicast SAFI 1 NLRI
is carried over an IPv6 core transport label LSP.

In the MPLS analogy use case of global table routing  there is no bottom of
stack service label as is required for L3 VPN where we have a label as we
have an VPN overlay present. So the BGP routes are carried in the BGP RIB
natively in the global routing table unlabeled.  So that is what we are
talking about for the 5.4 use case now with SRv6 no VPN label and so NO
SRv6 L3 service TLV encoded in BGP prefix SID attribute.  The MPLS label
stack L3 VPN service label in SRv6 scenario in FUNCT field is now not
present with SAFI 1 IPV6 Unicast =E2=80=9CGlobal IPv6 over IPv6 core=E2=80=
=9D.

In section 5.1 and 5.2 BGP-LU SAFI 4 is required
because the SRv6 L3 Service TLV for L3 VPN overlay service route must
encoded in BGP prefix SID as it must be sent as labeled.

So in section 5.3 Global IPv4 over SRv6 core is similar to a 6PE RFC 4798
scenario analogy where the IPv6 prefixes are carried over an IPv4 core with
IPv4 signaled LSP with additional bottom of stack label as IPV6 prefixes
are labeled with BGP-LU SAFI 4  2/4 and must be sent labeled due to PHP
requirement as stated in RFC 4798.

So we have in section 5.3 the same scenario as 6PE but now over SRv6 using
RFC 8950 IPv6 next hop encoding to carry the BGP LU SAFI 4 labeled IPv4
prefixes.

So in 5.3 that section would need to be updated to state that BGP-LU
labeled IPv4 prefixes is necessary with encoded SRv6 L3 service TLV in BGP
prefix SID attribute so the IPv4 prefixes can be sent as labeled prefixes
over SRv6 core.

Upon exiting the SRv6 domain at the egress PE the outer IPv6 header is
removed that contains the SRv6 programming endpoint behavior semantics with
native payload forwarded by the PE to the CE similar to MPLS label
disposition at egress PE exiting the domain.

So here no issue with filtering as once you exit the domain the SRv6
forwarding plane semantics are stripped from the packet.

Hopefully this clarifies.

Many Thanks,

Gyan

On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 7:48 AM Robert Raszuk  wrote:

> Gyan,
>
> MPLS is never sent in SAFI 1.
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
> On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 5:47 AM Gyan Mishra  wrote=
:
>
>> Hi Robert
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 4:23 PM Robert Raszuk  wrote:
>>
>>> Gyan,
>>>
>>> Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop
>>>> encoding.  In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=
=E2=80=99s the
>>>> customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far a=
s BGP
>>>> leaks.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would have the same concern so would VPN customers. No one is selling
>>> L2 or L3 VPN service to them distributing their reachability in the glo=
bal
>>> routing table. They can do that all by themselves and there is lot's of
>>> really solid tools or products to do that already without being locked =
to a
>>> single telco.
>>>
>>
>> Gyan> MPLS provides the capability for GRT native routing  SAFI 1 as wel=
l
>> as SAFI 128, so in my opinion both should be supported by SRV6 as operat=
ors
>> look to use SRv6 for a variety of use cases. That=E2=80=99s my point as =
there
>> should be complete feature parity between MPLS and SRv6 as to AFI / SAFI
>> support.  Global Internet routing would not be the best use case for SAF=
I 1
>> GRT due to the attack vector - agreed, but enterprise networks with
>> internal customers where there is a trust level is a huge use case.
>>
>>>
>>> So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protection mechanisms used
>>>> today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT use case.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not possible. It is not about filtering ... it is all about using
>>> globally routable SAFI vs private SAFIs to distribute customer's
>>> reachability, IMO that should still be OTT only.
>>>
>>
>>     Gyan> As SRv6 source node is requirement to encapsulation with IPv6
>> outer header and decapsulation at egress PE for SRv6-BE and SRv6-TE path
>> steering the security issue brought up related to 5.3 and 5.4 is not an
>> issue requiring filtering per RFC 8402.  So routable and private SAFI
>> scenario would be the same now due to encapsulation overlay for both.  D=
o
>> you agree ?
>>
>>>
>>> I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed bu=
t just to
>>>> tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain.
>>>>
>>>
>>> BGP filtering or policy is in hands of many people. As has been proven
>>> you can not tighten them strong enough not to leak. The only natural wa=
y to
>>> tighten them is to use different plane to distribute private informatio=
n
>>> what in this context means at least different BGP SAFI.
>>>
>>> So no - I do not agree with your observations.
>>>
>>
>>    Gyan> I am not promoting use of SAFI 1 however I SRv6 should provide
>> complete parity with MPLS to support both SAFI 1 and 128. There  are ple=
nty
>> of use cases for SAFI 1 and it should be supported with SRv6.
>>
>>>
>>> However I am for providing overlay reachability over global IPv6
>>> Internet to interconnect customer sites. But routing within those sites
>>> should not be traversing Internet routers and using SAFI 1.
>>>
>>> Rgs,
>>> Robert.
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> 
>>
>> *Gyan Mishra*
>>
>> *Network Solutions A**rchitect *
>>
>> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>>
>>
>>
>> *M 301 502-1347*
>>
>> --



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

--000000000000e9311905d7ea5d6c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Hi Robert=C2=A0

I am not saying MPLS is sent in SAFI 1. =C2=
=A0

Let me try to explai=
n.=C2=A0

In the use case=
 we are discussing in section 5.3 and 5.4 =C2=A0is when there is no VPN ove=
rlay as the PE-CE AC sits in the global routing table native BGP unlabeled =
prefixes and the label stack is just a single label deep with the topmost t=
ransport label.=C2=A0 In that scenario 5.4 is IPv6 unicast SAFI 1 NLRI is c=
arried over an IPv6 core transport label LSP.=C2=A0=C2=A0

In the MPLS analogy use case of global ta=
ble routing =C2=A0there is no bottom of stack service label as is required =
for L3 VPN where we have a label as we have an VPN overlay present. So the =
BGP routes are carried in the BGP RIB natively in the global routing table =
unlabeled.=C2=A0 So that is what we are talking about for the 5.4 use case =
now with SRv6 no VPN label and so NO SRv6 L3 service TLV encoded in BGP pre=
fix SID attribute.=C2=A0 The MPLS label stack L3 VPN service label in SRv6 =
scenario in FUNCT field is now not present with SAFI 1 IPV6 Unicast =E2=80=
=9CGlobal IPv6 over IPv6 core=E2=80=9D.

In section 5.1 and 5.2 BGP-LU SAFI 4 is required =C2=A0
because the SRv6 L3 Service TLV for L3 VPN overlay serv=
ice route must encoded in BGP prefix SID as it must be sent as labeled. =C2=
=A0

So in section 5.3 Gl=
obal IPv4 over SRv6 core is similar to a 6PE RFC 4798 scenario analogy wher=
e the IPv6 prefixes are carried over an IPv4 core with IPv4 signaled LSP wi=
th additional bottom of stack label as IPV6 prefixes are labeled with BGP-L=
U SAFI 4 =C2=A02/4 and must be sent labeled due to PHP requirement as state=
d in RFC 4798.

So we hav=
e in section 5.3 the same scenario as 6PE but now over SRv6 using RFC 8950 =
IPv6 next hop encoding to carry the BGP LU SAFI 4 labeled IPv4 prefixes. =
=C2=A0

So in 5.3 that se=
ction would need to be updated to state that BGP-LU labeled IPv4 prefixes i=
s necessary with encoded SRv6 L3 service TLV in BGP prefix SID attribute so=
 the IPv4 prefixes can be sent as labeled prefixes over SRv6 core.

Upon exiting the SRv6 domain at =
the egress PE the outer IPv6 header is removed that contains the SRv6 progr=
amming endpoint behavior semantics with native payload forwarded by the PE =
to the CE similar to MPLS label disposition at egress PE exiting the domain=
. =C2=A0

So here no issu=
e with filtering as once you exit the domain the SRv6 forwarding plane sema=
ntics are stripped from the packet.

Hopefully this clarifies.

Many Thanks,

Gyan

On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 7:48 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net&=
gt; wrote:
Gyan,

<=
div>MPLS is never sent in SAFI 1.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.=


On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 5:47 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:<=
br>
Hi=C2=A0Robert
<=
br>
On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 4:23 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> w=
rote:
Gyan,

<=
/div>
Section =
5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using RFC 5549 next hop encoding.=C2=
=A0 In this case using GRT transport underlay layer now carry=E2=80=99s the=
 customer routes and that is what Warren and Andrew concern is as far as BG=
P leaks. =C2=A0

I would have the same=
 concern so would VPN customers. No one is selling L2 or L3 VPN service to =
them=C2=A0distributing=C2=A0their reachability in the global routing table.=
 They can do that all by themselves and there is lot's of really solid =
tools or products to do that already without being locked to a single telco=
.=C2=A0

Gyan> MPLS provides the capability for GRT native ro=
uting =C2=A0SAFI 1 as well as SAFI 128, so in my opinion both should be sup=
ported by SRV6 as operators look to use SRv6 for a variety of use cases. Th=
at=E2=80=99s my point as there should be complete feature parity between MP=
LS and SRv6 as to AFI / SAFI support.=C2=A0 Global Internet routing would n=
ot be the best use case for SAFI 1 GRT due to the attack vector - agreed, b=
ut enterprise networks with internal customers where there is a trust level=
 is a huge use case. =C2=A0

So when GRT is used the same edge filtering pr=
otection mechanisms used today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for=
 GRT use case.

Not possible. It i=
s not about=C2=A0filtering ... it is all about using globally routable SAFI=
 vs private SAFIs to distribute customer's reachability, IMO that shoul=
d still be OTT only.=C2=A0
=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> As SRv6 sourc=
e node is requirement to encapsulation with IPv6 outer header and decapsula=
tion at egress PE for SRv6-BE and SRv6-TE path steering the security issue =
brought up related to 5.3 and 5.4 is not an issue requiring filtering per R=
FC 8402.=C2=A0 So routable and private SAFI scenario would be the same now =
due to encapsulation overlay for both.=C2=A0 Do you agree ?

I don=E2=80=99=
t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 should not be allowed but just to tighten =
up verbiage as far securing the domain.=C2=A0=C2=A0
<=
div>
BGP filtering or policy is in hands of many people. As h=
as been proven you can not tighten them strong enough=C2=A0not to leak. The=
 only natural way to tighten them is to use different=C2=A0plane to distrib=
ute private information what=C2=A0in this=C2=A0context means=C2=A0at=C2=A0l=
east different BGP SAFI.=C2=A0

So no - I do not ag=
ree with your observations.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> I am no=
t promoting use of SAFI 1 however I SRv6 should provide complete parity wit=
h MPLS to support both SAFI 1 and 128. There =C2=A0are plenty of use cases =
for SAFI 1 and it should be supported with SRv6. =C2=A0

However I am f=
or providing overlay reachability over global IPv6 Internet to interconnect=
 customer sites. But routing within those sites should not be traversing In=
ternet routers and using SAFI 1.=C2=A0

Rgs,
Rob=
ert.




-- 



-- 
=

Gyan Mishra
Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0<=
/p>
Email gyan.s.mishra@ver=
izon.com<=
br>
M 301 502-1347




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References: 
In-Reply-To: 
From: Anoop Ghanwani 
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 16:08:55 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Luc_Andr=C3=A9_Burdet?= 
Cc: "matthew.bocci@nokia.com" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org" ,  "bess@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e883505d7ef39bf"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03
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Thanks Luc.

I have reviewed the changes and they look good to me.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 10:45 AM Luc Andr=C3=A9 Burdet 
wrote:

> Hi Anoop,
>
> Thanks for your detailed review, I have posted -04 addressing these
> comments.
>
>
>
> >>Timestamp Fractional Seconds (17 bits)
>
> This threw me off for a bit...
>
> >> Now that I double check, the figure is wrong!  It uses only 7 bits for
> the Type which looks like it should be 8 bits.  So it looks like Timestam=
p
> Fractional Seconds should be 16 bits.
>
> ...but you actually hit onto a critical misalignment in the figure !
>
>
>
> I have moved the whole description section up into the encoding/extcomm a=
s
> descriptive text of the fields themselves. Nice catch, thank you !
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Luc Andr=C3=A9
>
>
>
> Luc Andr=C3=A9 Burdet |  Cisco  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com  |  Tel: +1 61=
3 254
> 4814
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Anoop Ghanwani 
> *Date: *Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:50
> *To: *Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) 
> *Cc: *draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org <
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <
> bess@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org 
> *Subject: *Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03
>
> I support publication of the document as an RFC.  However, I think there
> are some editorial nits that need to be addressed (see below).
>
>
>
> Anoop
>
>
>
> =3D=3D
>
>
>
> Abstract
>
>
>
> performed via a simple signaling between the recovered PE
>    and each PEs in the multi-homing group.
> ->
> performed via simple signaling between the recovered PE
>    and each of the other PEs in the multi-homing group.
>
>
>
>
>
> Multiple sections
>
>
>
> multi-homing Ethernet Segment ->
>
> multi-homed Ethernet Segment
>
>
>
> Ethernet-Segment ->
>
> Ethernet Segment
>
>
>
> There are some instances of use of ES (section 3.2).  Either ES should be
> spelled out and used throughout or, which is what I would do, replace the=
 2
> instances of ES in Section 3.2 with Ethernet Segment.
>
> It would also be good to provide captions for all figures since it makes
> it easy to reference.
>
>
>
> Section 1
>
> EVPN solution [RFC7432]
> ->
> The EVPN specification [RFC7432]
>
>
>
> and it is performed via a
>    simple signaling between the recovered PE and each PE in the multi-
>    homing group.
> ->
> and it is performed via
>    simple signaling between the recovered PE and each of the other PEs in
> the multi-
>    homing group.
>
>
>
>
>
> Section 2
>
> The current state of art (Highest Random Weight)
> ->
> The current state of art HRW (Highest Random Weight)
>
>
>
> duplication of DF roles for a give VLAN is possible.
> ->
> duplication of DF roles for a given VLAN is possible.
>
>
>
>
>
> Section 3.1
>
>
>    -  A simple uni-directional signaling is all needed
> ->
>    -  A simple uni-directional signaling is all that is needed
>
>
> -  (e.g .NTP, PTP, etc.)
> ->
> -  (e.g. NTP, PTP, etc.)
>
>
>
>
>
> Section 3.2
>
> It would be good to explicitly explain the fields below the figure, e.g.
> Timestamp Seconds (32 bits): ...
> Timestamp Fractional Seconds (17 bits): ... (provide details on how this
> part is created)
> If this is omitted because it is in some other doc, then provide a
> reference.
>
>
>
> [Looks like the figure is wrong about length for Timestamp Fractional
> Seconds which is why it would help to have a description as above.]
>
>
>
> PEs in the ES [there are 2 instances]
>
> ->
>
> PEs attached to the Ethernet Segment
>
>
>
> want the DF type be of HRW
>
> ->
> want the DF type to be HRW
>
>
>
> "The use
>    of a 32-bit seconds and 16-bit fractional seconds yields adequate
>    precision of 15 microseconds (2^-16 s)."
>
> The figure shows 17 bits for fractional seconds.  Now that I double check=
,
> the figure is wrong!  It uses only 7 bits for the Type which looks like i=
t
> should be 8 bits.  So it looks like Timestamp Fractional Seconds should b=
e
> 16 bits.
>
>
>
>
>
> Section 3.4
>
>    -  PE2, it starts its 3sec peering timer as per RFC7432
> ->
>    -  PE2, starts its 3 sec peering timer as per RFC7432
>
>
>
> [RFC7432] aims of favouring traffic black hole over duplicate traffic
> (Missing period at end of sentence.)
>
>
>
> Spell out first use of NDF.
>
>
>
> becomes a no-op
> ->
> becomes a non-issue.
>
>
> The usage of
>    SCT approach remedies to the exposed problem with the usage of
>    peering timer.  The 3 seconds timer window is shorthen to few
>    milliseconds.
> ->
> The usage of
>    SCT approach remedies the problem with the usage of the
>    peering timer.  The 3 second timer window is shortened to a few
>    milliseconds.
>
>
>
>
>
> Section 3.5
>
>
>
> modulus based
> ->
> modulo-based
>
>
>
> running an baseline DF election
> ->
> running a baseline DF election
>
>
>
> shall simply discard unrecognized new SCT BGP extended community.
> ->
> will simply disregard the new SCT BGP extended community.
>
>
>
> "...all PEs in the Ethernet-Segment may revert back to the RFC7432 timer
> approach."
> Is this a "may" or should it be a "must"?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 5:58 AM Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <
> matthew.bocci@nokia.com> wrote:
>
> Hi WG,
>
>
>
> This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-e=
vpn-fast-df-recovery-03
> [1].
>
>
>
> This poll runs until Monday 14th February 2022.
>
>
>
> We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to
> this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with
> IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>
> If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document, please
> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any
> relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers fro=
m
> all the Authors and Contributors.
>
> There is currently no IPR disclosed.
>
>
>
> If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please
> explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been
> disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>
>
>
> We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. Please
> indicate if you are aware of any implementations.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Matthew & Stephane
>
>
>
> [1] draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF
> Election
> 
>
> [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDp=
w
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
>

--0000000000008e883505d7ef39bf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Thanks Luc.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I have reviewed=
 the changes and they look good to me.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 10:45 A=
M Luc Andr=C3=A9 Burdet <labu=
rdet.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:











Hi Ano=
op,


Thanks=
 for your detailed review, I have posted -04 addressing these comments.<=
/u>


=C2=A0


>&g=
t;Timestamp Fractional =
Seconds (17 bits)


This t=
hrew me off for a bit...


>>=
; Now that I double check, the figure is wrong!=C2=A0 It uses only 7 bits f=
or the Type which looks like it should be 8 bits.=C2=A0 So it looks like Ti=
mestamp Fractional Seconds should be 16 bits.


...but=
 you actually hit onto a critical misalignment in the figure !


=C2=A0


I have=
 moved the whole description section up into the encoding/extcomm as descri=
ptive text of the fields themselves. Nice catch, thank you !<=
/span>


=C2=A0




Regards,

Luc Andr=C3=A9


=C2=A0


Luc Andr=C3=A9 Burdet | =C2=A0C=
isco =C2=A0|=C2=A0 laburdet.ietf@gmail.com=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 Tel: +1 613 254 4814<=
u>




=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From:
Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.=
edu>

Date: Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:50

To: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org <=
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <<=
a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg>

Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and Implementation Poll for draft-ietf=
-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03








I support publication of the document as an RFC.=C2=
=A0 However, I think there are some editorial nits that need to be addresse=
d (see below).






=C2=A0






Anoop






=C2=A0






=3D=3D






=C2=A0






Abstract




=C2=A0




performed via a simple signaling between the recover=
ed PE

=C2=A0 =C2=A0and each PEs in the multi-homing group.

->

performed via simple signaling between the recovered PE

=C2=A0 =C2=A0and each of the other PEs in the multi-homing group.=







=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Multiple sections






=C2=A0






multi-homing Ethernet Segment ->





multi-homed Ethernet Segment






=C2=A0






Ethernet-Segment ->=C2=A0






Ethernet Segment






=C2=A0






There are some instances of use of ES (section 3.2).=
=C2=A0 Either ES should be spelled out and used throughout or, which is wha=
t I would do, replace the 2 instances of ES in Section 3.2 with Ethernet Se=
gment.



It would also be good to provide captions for all figures since it makes it=
 easy to reference.










Section 1



EVPN solution [RFC7432]

->

The EVPN specification [RFC7432]






=C2=A0




and it is performed via a

=C2=A0 =C2=A0simple signaling between the recovered PE and each PE in the m=
ulti-

=C2=A0 =C2=A0homing group.

->

and it is performed via

=C2=A0 =C2=A0simple signaling between the recovered PE and each of the othe=
r PEs in the multi-

=C2=A0 =C2=A0homing group.




=C2=A0<=
u>




=C2=A0




Section 2=







The current state of art (Highest Random Weight)

->

The current state of art HRW (Highest Random Weight)






=C2=A0






duplication of DF roles for a give VLAN is possible.=


->

duplication of DF roles for a given VLAN is possible.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Section 3.1






=C2=A0 =C2=A0- =C2=A0A simple uni-directional signaling is all needed

->

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- =C2=A0A simple uni-directional signaling is all that is need=
ed






- =C2=A0(e.g .NTP, PTP, etc.)

->

- =C2=A0(e.g. NTP, PTP, etc.)






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Section 3.2






It would be good to explicitly explain the fields be=
low the figure, e.g.

Timestamp Seconds (32 bits): ...

Timestamp Fractional Seconds (17 bits): ... (provide details on how this pa=
rt is created)

If this is omitted because it is in some other doc, then provide a referenc=
e.






=C2=A0






[Looks like the figure is wrong about length for Tim=
estamp Fractional Seconds which is why it would help to have a description =
as above.]






=C2=A0






PEs in the ES [there are 2 instances]=C2=A0






->






PEs attached to the Ethernet Segment





=C2=A0




want the DF type be of HRW=C2=A0




->

want the DF type to be HRW






=C2=A0




"The use

=C2=A0 =C2=A0of a 32-bit seconds and 16-bit fractional seconds yields adequ=
ate

=C2=A0 =C2=A0precision of 15 microseconds (2^-16 s)."



The figure shows 17 bits for fractional seconds.=C2=
=A0 Now that I double check, the figure is wrong!=C2=A0 It uses only 7 bits=
 for the Type which looks like it should be 8 bits.=C2=A0 So it looks like =
Timestamp Fractional Seconds should be 16 bits.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0




Section 3.4



=C2=A0 =C2=A0- =C2=A0PE2, it starts its 3sec peering timer as per RFC7432
->

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- =C2=A0PE2, starts its 3 sec peering timer as per RFC7432<=
/u>




=C2=A0






[RFC7432] aims of favouring traffic black hole over =
duplicate traffic

(Missing period at end of sentence.)






=C2=A0






Spell out first use of NDF.






=C2=A0




becomes a no-op

->

becomes a non-issue.






The usage of

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SCT approach remedies to the exposed problem with the usage of=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0peering timer.=C2=A0 The 3 seconds timer window is shorthen to=
 few

=C2=A0 =C2=A0milliseconds.

->

The usage of

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SCT approach remedies the problem with the usage of the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0peering timer.=C2=A0 The 3 second timer window is shortened to=
 a few

=C2=A0 =C2=A0milliseconds.








=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Section 3.5












=C2=A0




modulus based

->

modulo-based




=C2=A0




running an baseline DF election

->

running a baseline DF election




=C2=A0




shall simply discard unrecognized new SCT BGP extend=
ed community.

->

will simply disregard the new SCT BGP extended community.




=C2=A0




"...all PEs in the Ethernet-Segment may revert =
back to the RFC7432 timer approach."

Is this a "may" or should it be a "must"?=





=C2=A0






On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 5:58 AM Bocci, Matthew (Noki=
a - GB) <ma=
tthew.bocci@nokia.com> wrote:










Hi WG,


=C2=A0


This email starts a two-week Wo=
rking Group Last Call on
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03 [1].=



=C2=A0


This poll runs until Monday 14<=
sup>th February 2022.


=C2=A0


We are also polling for knowled=
ge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to this Document, to ensure that IPR=
 has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
 (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).


If you are listed as an Author =
or a Contributor of this document, please respond to this email and indicat=
e whether or not you are aware of any relevant undisclosed
 IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all the Authors =
and Contributors.=C2=A0

There is currently no IPR discl=
osed.


=C2=A0


If you are not listed as an Aut=
hor or a Contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware =
of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance
 with IETF rules.


=C2=A0


We are also polling for any exi=
sting implementation as per [2].=C2=A0Please indicate if you are aware of a=
ny implementations.


=C2=A0


Thank you,


Matthew & Stephane


=C2=A0


[1]=C2=A0draft-ietf-bess-evpn-fast-df-recovery-03
 - Fast Recovery for EVPN DF Election


[2]=C2=A0https://mailarch=
ive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw=



=C2=A0


=C2=A0






_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess













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In-Reply-To: 
From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:24:20 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Andrew - IETF 
Cc: Robert Raszuk , Warren Kumari ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , BESS 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Warren/All,

This draft specifies broadly two types of BGP Services over SRv6:

A) VPN Services (L3VPN & EVPN) - Sec 5.1, 5.2 & 6
B) Global Internet Services - Sec 5.3, 5.4

As explained by my co-author Robert, the operations and mechanisms for VPN
services are similar to what we've had with MPLS. I believe we are all on
the same page on this one based on the discussions between Andrew and
Robert and that there is no new concern as far as (A).

Now (B) does bring in filtering aspects (as mentioned in the security
considerations) to ensure that the SRv6 block that is meant for use
internal to the operator's network (i.e. SR domain) does not get
leaked/advertised out from the default table on the Internet Border Router
(IBR) over to an eBGP peer. This is similar to the precautions that
operators take today to prevent their infrastructure addresses from being
leaked to the Internet. The filters in BGP are also accompanied by ACLs at
the IBRs to prevent traffic destined for those infrastructure IPs from
entering into the operator network. This is the same in the case of SRv6 as
well.

I hope that clarifies and we can update the text to convey these aspects
better.

Thanks,
Ketan


On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:21 AM Andrew - IETF 
wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
>
>
> 5.3 Also opens the door to SAFI 1 =E2=80=93 since you can v6 over v4 usin=
g AFI  1
>  / SAFI 1 using what is defined in RFC8950, in fact, it is explicit.
>
>
>
> Section 5.3 is titled Global IPv4 over SRv6 core =E2=80=93 this correlate=
s with
> the example in section 6.1 of RFC8950 =E2=80=93 which states:
>
>
>
>
>
>    The extensions defined in this document may be used as discussed in
>
>    [RFC5565 ] for the inte=
rconnection of IPv4 islands over an IPv6
>
>    backbone.  In this application, Address Family Border Routers (AFBRs;
>
>    as defined in [RFC4925 =
]) advertise IPv4 NLRI in the MP_REACH_NLRI
>
>    along with an IPv6 next hop.
>
>
>
>    The MP_REACH_NLRI is encoded with:
>
>
>
>    *  AFI =3D 1
>
>
>
>    *  SAFI =3D 1
>
>
>
>    *  Length of Next Hop Address field =3D 16 (or 32)
>
>
>
>    *  Next Hop Address =3D IPv6 address of the next hop
>
>
>
>    *  NLRI =3D IPv4 routes
>
>
>
>    During BGP Capability Advertisement, the PE routers would include the
>
>    following fields in the Capabilities Optional Parameter:
>
>
>
>    *  Capability Code set to "Extended Next Hop Encoding"
>
>
>
>    *  Capability Value containing 
>       AFI=3D2>
>
>
>
> As I say, if you were to remove the references to global and 5.3/5.4 whic=
h
> explicitly reference it and bring SAFI 1 into play =E2=80=93 there would =
be far
> less concern from my side, I can=E2=80=99t speak for anyone else, but tha=
t would be
> my feeling
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert Raszuk 
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 9:37 PM
> *To:* Andrew - IETF 
> *Cc:* Warren Kumari ; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <
> matthew.bocci@nokia.com>; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
> bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG ; BESS 
> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
>
>
> When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from section 2 which says:
>
>
>
> - - -
>
>
>
>    The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-
>    SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2
>    services.
>
>    o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>       SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received with a Layer
>       3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
>       [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY be encoded, but
>       not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.
>
>    o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>       SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
>       Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors
>       which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
>       End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.
>
>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>    defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
>    [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.
>
>    The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] with SRv6
>    is outside the scope of this document.
>
>
>
> - - -
>
>
>
> This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128 an=
d
> SAFI 70.
>
>
>
> To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the wild. Also SAFI
> 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.
>
>
>
> The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section 5.4 and use of
> global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1
>
>
>
> Many thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF 
> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> I have to say that I have very similar readings on parts of the draft.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem to indicate AFI 1 / =
SAFI 4
>
> 5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
>
> 5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows advertisement over SA=
FI 1, 2 or 4
>
> 5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refers to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.
>
>
>
> I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it=
 doesn=E2=80=99t
> =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agree with the thoughts expressed in Wa=
rrens
> Discuss.  If I am wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me
> understand this better, and then lets potentially see if we can work up
> some wording that would clarify this if that is what is required.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* iesg  *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
> *To:* Warren Kumari 
> *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ;
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <
> iesg@ietf.org>; BESS 
> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
> Hi Warren,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start discussing it perhaps it
> would be good to align on what this document really defines as I am sensi=
ng
> from your description there can be some disconnect (modulo some text may =
be
> indeed misleading in the draft).
>
>
>
> You said:
>
>
>
> > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
> > contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
> available to
> > the public into perpetuity.
>
>
>
> I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
>
>
>
> Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines
> extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not used to peer outside =
of
> a domain, collection of domains under same administration +
> of course inter-as also could happen.
>
>
>
> With that being said I do not see risk that due to leaking there could be
> a situation where customer networks are exposed in any way externally -
> leaving alone that to even get at the transport level to the customer
> facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from outside. But this is ou=
t
> of scope of this document as here the focus is not on underlay but overla=
y.
>
>
>
> Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little piece perhaps
> misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 whic=
h
> defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
> clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other co-authors belie=
ve
> this is applicable to the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be
> valid.
>
>
>
> Many thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE
> routers
> using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
> trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes
> within a
> single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that the
> BGP
> service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP
> sessions
> are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to
> (from
> RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST
> NOT be
> leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."
>
> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
> available to
> the public into perpetuity.
>
> While the document states that border filtering should protect against
> traffic
> injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure,
> there is
> the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bet=
s
> are
> off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traff=
ic
> into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface t=
o
> include the customer's networks too.
>
> Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they
> have
> to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any
> border
> node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and
> machine
> within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply
> saying
> that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occur=
,
> when
> the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from
> seems to
> not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a
> missing
> ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot in,
> so
> that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my
> understand how
> this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
>
>

--000000000000e3c82b05d7f40cc4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Warren/All,

This draft specifies bro=
adly two types of BGP Services over SRv6:

A) VPN S=
ervices (L3VPN & EVPN) - Sec 5.1, 5.2 & 6
B) Global Inter=
net Services - Sec 5.3, 5.4

As explained by my co-=
author Robert, the operations and mechanisms for VPN services are similar t=
o what we've had with MPLS. I believe we are all on the same page on th=
is one based on the discussions between Andrew and Robert and that there is=
 no new concern as far as (A).

Now (B) does bring =
in filtering aspects (as mentioned in the security considerations) to ensur=
e that the SRv6 block that is meant for use internal to the operator's =
network (i.e. SR domain) does not get leaked/advertised out from the defaul=
t table on the Internet Border Router (IBR) over to an eBGP peer. This is s=
imilar to the precautions that operators take today to prevent their infras=
tructure addresses from being leaked to the Internet. The filters in BGP ar=
e also accompanied by ACLs at the IBRs to prevent traffic destined for thos=
e infrastructure IPs from entering into the operator network. This is the s=
ame in the case of SRv6 as well.

I hope that clari=
fies and we can update the text to convey these aspects better.
<=
br>
Thanks,
Ketan


On Sun, Feb 13, 2=
022 at 12:21 AM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech> wrote:











Hi Robert, 


=C2=A0


5.3 Also opens the door to SAFI 1 =E2=80=93 since yo=
u can v6 over v4 using AFI =C2=A01 =C2=A0/ SAFI 1 using what is defined in =
RFC8950, in fact, it is explicit.


=C2=A0


Section 5.3 is titled Global IPv4 over SRv6 core =E2=
=80=93 this correlates with the example in section 6.1 of RFC8950 =E2=80=93=
 which states:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The extensions defined in thi=
s document may be used as discussed in


=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC5565] for the interconnection of IPv4 islands ove=
r an IPv6


=C2=A0=C2=A0 backbone.=C2=A0 In this appli=
cation, Address Family Border Routers (AFBRs;


=C2=A0=C2=A0 as defined in [RFC4925]) advertise IPv4 NLRI in th=
e MP_REACH_NLRI


=C2=A0=C2=A0 along with an IPv6 next hop.<=
u>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The MP_REACH_NLRI is encoded =
with:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 AFI =3D 1


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 SAFI =3D 1<=
/u>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Length of Next Hop Ad=
dress field =3D 16 (or 32)


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Next Hop Address =3D =
IPv6 address of the next hop


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 NLRI =3D IPv4 routes<=
u>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 During BGP Capability Adverti=
sement, the PE routers would include the


=C2=A0=C2=A0 following fields in the Capab=
ilities Optional Parameter:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Capability Code set t=
o "Extended Next Hop Encoding"


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Capability Value cont=
aining <NLRI AFI=3D1, NLRI SAFI=3D1, Nexthop


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 AFI=3D2>=



=C2=A0


As I say, if you were to remove the references to gl=
obal and 5.3/5.4 which explicitly reference it and bring SAFI 1 into play =
=E2=80=93 there would be far less concern from my side, I can=E2=80=99t spe=
ak for anyone else, but that would be my feeling


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> 

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 9:37 PM

To: Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech>

Cc: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;; BESS <bess@ietf.or=
g>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Andrew,




=C2=A0






When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text fr=
om=C2=A0section 2 which says:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as tw=
o new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0services.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L3 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received =
with a Layer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC=
8950]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC9136].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MA=
Y be encoded, but

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6=
, etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L2 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet =
VPN (EVPN)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 E=
ndpoint behaviors

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2,=
 End.DX2V,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-p=
lane,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Serv=
ice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP =
NLRIs

=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Secti=
on 6.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] wi=
th SRv6

=C2=A0 =C2=A0is outside the scope of this document.






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAF=
Is mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged i=
n the wild. Also SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed se=
ction 5.4 and use of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liqu=
id.tech> wrote:










Robert,


=C2=A0


I have to say that I have very similar readings on p=
arts of the draft.


=C2=A0


Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93


=C2=A0


5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem=
 to indicate AFI 1 / SAFI 4


5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading



5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows =
advertisement over SAFI 1, 2 or 4



5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refe=
rs to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.


=C2=A0


I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1=
 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agr=
ee with the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.=C2=A0 If I am wrong abou=
t 5.3
 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me understand this better, and then l=
ets potentially see if we can work up some wording that would clarify this =
if that is what is required.


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>

Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>;
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org; The IESG <ie=
sg@ietf.org>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Warren,




=C2=A0






Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start disc=
ussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what this document really de=
fines as I am sensing from your description there
 can be some disconnect (modulo some text may be indeed=C2=A0misleading in =
the draft).=C2=A0






=C2=A0






You said:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- a=
nd when they do, the SID=E2=80=99s

> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence avai=
lable to

> the public into perpetuity.






=C2=A0






I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Leaks do happen but only within global=C2=A0AFI/SAFI=
s. This draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not u=
sed to peer outside of a domain, collection of domains
 under same administration + of=C2=A0course=C2=A0inter-as also could happen=
.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






With that=C2=A0being said I do not see risk that due=
 to leaking there could be a situation where customer networks are exposed =
in any way externally - leaving alone that to even get
 at the=C2=A0transport level to the customer facing PE is also filtered and=
 never allowed from outside. But this is out of scope of this document as h=
ere the focus is not on underlay but overlay.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little =
piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to =
RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6 with both unicast
 and VPN AFs. That needs to be made clear that it is applicable to the latt=
er only. If other co-authors believe this is applicable=C2=A0to the former =
your DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via D=
atatracker <norepl=
y@ietf.org> wrote:






Warren Kumari has enter=
ed the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between P=
E routers

using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within=
 a

single provider network).=C2=A0 Precaution should be taken to ensure that t=
he BGP

service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sess=
ions

are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related t=
o (from

RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUS=
T NOT be

leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."



However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=E2=
=80=99s

contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available=
 to

the public into perpetuity.



While the document states that border filtering should protect against traf=
fic

injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there=
 is

the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets =
are

off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic=


into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to<=
br>
include the customer's networks too.



Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they h=
ave

to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any borde=
r

node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and mac=
hine

within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply sa=
ying

that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occ=
ur, when

the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seem=
s to

not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a mis=
sing

ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot i=
n, so

that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand=
 how

this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.

























--000000000000e3c82b05d7f40cc4--


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 02:47:18 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
Cc: Andrew - IETF , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , Robert Raszuk , The IESG ,  Warren Kumari , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Ketan

I agree with you that for B section 5.3 and 5.4  IPv4 and IPv6 global table
over SRv6 core does bring filtering aspects to the security considerations
to ensure that the operators SRv6 infrastructure block does not get leaked
from the global table to the internet over eBGP peer as well as
infrastructure ACLs to prevent access to SRv6 infrastructure IPs per RFC
8402 section 8.2.

I don=E2=80=99t see any other security issues other than what is described =
in RFC
8402 section 8.2.

I agree as well that this security consideration is no different then
precautions taken today on an operators network.

Kind Regards

Gyan

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 12:55 AM Ketan Talaulikar 
wrote:

> Hi Warren/All,
>
> This draft specifies broadly two types of BGP Services over SRv6:
>
> A) VPN Services (L3VPN & EVPN) - Sec 5.1, 5.2 & 6
> B) Global Internet Services - Sec 5.3, 5.4
>
> As explained by my co-author Robert, the operations and mechanisms for VP=
N
> services are similar to what we've had with MPLS. I believe we are all on
> the same page on this one based on the discussions between Andrew and
> Robert and that there is no new concern as far as (A).
>
> Now (B) does bring in filtering aspects (as mentioned in the security
> considerations) to ensure that the SRv6 block that is meant for use
> internal to the operator's network (i.e. SR domain) does not get
> leaked/advertised out from the default table on the Internet Border Route=
r
> (IBR) over to an eBGP peer. This is similar to the precautions that
> operators take today to prevent their infrastructure addresses from being
> leaked to the Internet. The filters in BGP are also accompanied by ACLs a=
t
> the IBRs to prevent traffic destined for those infrastructure IPs from
> entering into the operator network. This is the same in the case of SRv6 =
as
> well.
>
> I hope that clarifies and we can update the text to convey these aspects
> better.
>
> Thanks,
> Ketan
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:21 AM Andrew - IETF 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> 5.3 Also opens the door to SAFI 1 =E2=80=93 since you can v6 over v4 usi=
ng AFI  1
>>  / SAFI 1 using what is defined in RFC8950, in fact, it is explicit.
>>
>>
>>
>> Section 5.3 is titled Global IPv4 over SRv6 core =E2=80=93 this correlat=
es with
>> the example in section 6.1 of RFC8950 =E2=80=93 which states:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    The extensions defined in this document may be used as discussed in
>>
>>    [RFC5565 ] for the int=
erconnection of IPv4 islands over an IPv6
>>
>>    backbone.  In this application, Address Family Border Routers (AFBRs;
>>
>>    as defined in [RFC4925 ]) advertise IPv4 NLRI in the MP_REACH_NLRI
>>
>>    along with an IPv6 next hop.
>>
>>
>>
>>    The MP_REACH_NLRI is encoded with:
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  AFI =3D 1
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  SAFI =3D 1
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  Length of Next Hop Address field =3D 16 (or 32)
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  Next Hop Address =3D IPv6 address of the next hop
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  NLRI =3D IPv4 routes
>>
>>
>>
>>    During BGP Capability Advertisement, the PE routers would include the
>>
>>    following fields in the Capabilities Optional Parameter:
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  Capability Code set to "Extended Next Hop Encoding"
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  Capability Value containing >
>>       AFI=3D2>
>>
>>
>>
>> As I say, if you were to remove the references to global and 5.3/5.4
>> which explicitly reference it and bring SAFI 1 into play =E2=80=93 there=
 would be
>> far less concern from my side, I can=E2=80=99t speak for anyone else, bu=
t that
>> would be my feeling
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Robert Raszuk 
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 9:37 PM
>> *To:* Andrew - IETF 
>> *Cc:* Warren Kumari ; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <
>> matthew.bocci@nokia.com>; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
>> bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG ; BESS 
>> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>>
>>
>> When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from section 2 which says:
>>
>>
>>
>> - - -
>>
>>
>>
>>    The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-
>>    SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2
>>    services.
>>
>>    o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>>       SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received with a Layer
>>       3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
>>       [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY be encoded, but
>>       not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.
>>
>>    o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>>       SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
>>       Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors
>>       which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
>>       End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.
>>
>>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>>    defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
>>    [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.
>>
>>    The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] with SRv6
>>    is outside the scope of this document.
>>
>>
>>
>> - - -
>>
>>
>>
>> This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128
>> and SAFI 70.
>>
>>
>>
>> To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the wild. Also SAF=
I
>> 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section 5.4 and use of
>> global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have to say that I have very similar readings on parts of the draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93
>>
>>
>>
>> 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem to indicate AFI 1 /=
 SAFI 4
>>
>> 5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
>>
>> 5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows advertisement over S=
AFI 1, 2 or 4
>>
>> 5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refers to AFI 2 / SAFI 1=
.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 i=
t doesn=E2=80=99t
>> =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agree with the thoughts expressed in W=
arrens
>> Discuss.  If I am wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help m=
e
>> understand this better, and then lets potentially see if we can work up
>> some wording that would clarify this if that is what is required.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* iesg  *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
>> *To:* Warren Kumari 
>> *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ;
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <
>> iesg@ietf.org>; BESS 
>> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Warren,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start discussing it perhaps it
>> would be good to align on what this document really defines as I am sens=
ing
>> from your description there can be some disconnect (modulo some text may=
 be
>> indeed misleading in the draft).
>>
>>
>>
>> You said:
>>
>>
>>
>> > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the
>> SID=E2=80=99s
>> > contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
>> available to
>> > the public into perpetuity.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines
>> extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not used to peer outside=
 of
>> a domain, collection of domains under same administration +
>> of course inter-as also could happen.
>>
>>
>>
>> With that being said I do not see risk that due to leaking there could b=
e
>> a situation where customer networks are exposed in any way externally -
>> leaving alone that to even get at the transport level to the customer
>> facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from outside. But this is o=
ut
>> of scope of this document as here the focus is not on underlay but overl=
ay.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little piece perhaps
>> misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 whi=
ch
>> defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
>> clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other co-authors beli=
eve
>> this is applicable to the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be
>> valid.
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
>> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions=
/
>> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE
>> routers
>> using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
>> trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes
>> within a
>> single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that the
>> BGP
>> service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP
>> sessions
>> are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to
>> (from
>> RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST
>> NOT be
>> leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."
>>
>> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
>> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
>> available to
>> the public into perpetuity.
>>
>> While the document states that border filtering should protect against
>> traffic
>> injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure,
>> there is
>> the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all
>> bets are
>> off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject
>> traffic
>> into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface =
to
>> include the customer's networks too.
>>
>> Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, the=
y
>> have
>> to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any
>> border
>> node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and
>> machine
>> within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply
>> saying
>> that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't
>> occur, when
>> the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from
>> seems to
>> not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a
>> missing
>> ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot in=
,
>> so
>> that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my
>> understand how
>> this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
--=20



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

--000000000000d5865d05d7f5a0aa
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Hi=C2=A0Ketan

<=
/div>
I agree with you that for B section 5.3 and 5.4 =C2=
=A0IPv4 and IPv6 global table over SRv6 core does bring filtering aspects t=
o the security considerations to ensure that the operators SRv6 infrastruct=
ure block does not get leaked from the global table to the internet over eB=
GP peer as well as infrastructure ACLs to prevent access to SRv6 infrastruc=
ture IPs per RFC 8402 section 8.2. =C2=A0

=

I don=E2=80=99t see any other security issues other than =
what is described in RFC 8402 section 8.2.

I agree as well that this security consideration is no d=
ifferent then precautions taken today on an operators network.

Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 12:55 AM=
 Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@=
gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Wa=
rren/All,

This draft specifies broadly two types of BGP =
Services over SRv6:

A) VPN Services (L3VPN & E=
VPN) - Sec 5.1, 5.2 & 6
B) Global Internet Services - Sec 5.3=
, 5.4

As explained by my co-author Robert, the ope=
rations and mechanisms for VPN services are similar to what we've had w=
ith MPLS. I believe we are all on the same page on this one based on the di=
scussions between Andrew and Robert and that there is no new concern as far=
 as (A).

Now (B) does bring in filtering aspects (=
as mentioned in the security considerations) to ensure that the SRv6 block =
that is meant for use internal to the operator's network (i.e. SR domai=
n) does not get leaked/advertised out from the default table on the Interne=
t Border Router (IBR) over to an eBGP peer. This is similar to the precauti=
ons that operators take today to prevent their infrastructure addresses fro=
m being leaked to the Internet. The filters in BGP are also accompanied by =
ACLs at the IBRs to prevent traffic destined for those infrastructure IPs f=
rom entering into the operator network. This is the same in the case of SRv=
6 as well.

I hope that clarifies and we can update=
 the text to convey these aspects better.

Thanks,<=
/div>
Ketan


On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:21 AM Andrew=
 - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech> wrote:











Hi Robert, 


=C2=A0


5.3 Also opens the door to SAFI 1 =E2=80=93 since yo=
u can v6 over v4 using AFI =C2=A01 =C2=A0/ SAFI 1 using what is defined in =
RFC8950, in fact, it is explicit.


=C2=A0


Section 5.3 is titled Global IPv4 over SRv6 core =E2=
=80=93 this correlates with the example in section 6.1 of RFC8950 =E2=80=93=
 which states:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The extensions defined in this document may be use=
d as discussed in


=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC5565] for the interconnection of IPv4 =
islands over an IPv6


=C2=A0=C2=A0 backbone.=C2=A0 In this application, Address Famil=
y Border Routers (AFBRs;


=C2=A0=C2=A0 as defined in [RFC4925]) advertise IPv4=
 NLRI in the MP_REACH_NLRI


=C2=A0=C2=A0 along with an IPv6 next hop.


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The MP_REACH_NLRI is encoded with:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 AFI =3D 1


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 SAFI =3D 1


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Length of Next Hop Address field =3D 16 (o=
r 32)


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Next Hop Address =3D IPv6 address of the n=
ext hop


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 NLRI =3D IPv4 routes


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 During BGP Capability Advertisement, the PE router=
s would include the


=C2=A0=C2=A0 following fields in the Capabilities Optional Para=
meter:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Capability Code set to "Extended Next=
 Hop Encoding"


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Capability Value containing <NLRI AFI=
=3D1, NLRI SAFI=3D1, Nexthop


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 AFI=3D2>


=C2=A0


As I say, if you were to remove the references to gl=
obal and 5.3/5.4 which explicitly reference it and bring SAFI 1 into play =
=E2=80=93 there would be far less concern from my side, I can=E2=80=99t spe=
ak for anyone else, but that would be my feeling


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> 

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 9:37 PM

To: Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech>

Cc: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;; BESS <bess@ietf.or=
g>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Andrew,




=C2=A0






When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text fr=
om=C2=A0section 2 which says:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as tw=
o new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0services.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L3 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received =
with a Layer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC=
8950]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC9136].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MA=
Y be encoded, but

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6=
, etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L2 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet =
VPN (EVPN)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 E=
ndpoint behaviors

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2,=
 End.DX2V,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-p=
lane,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Serv=
ice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP =
NLRIs

=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Secti=
on 6.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] wi=
th SRv6

=C2=A0 =C2=A0is outside the scope of this document.






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAF=
Is mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged i=
n the wild. Also SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed se=
ction 5.4 and use of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liqu=
id.tech> wrote:










Robert,


=C2=A0


I have to say that I have very similar readings on p=
arts of the draft.


=C2=A0


Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93


=C2=A0


5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem=
 to indicate AFI 1 / SAFI 4


5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading



5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows =
advertisement over SAFI 1, 2 or 4



5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refe=
rs to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.


=C2=A0


I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1=
 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agr=
ee with the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.=C2=A0 If I am wrong abou=
t 5.3
 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me understand this better, and then l=
ets potentially see if we can work up some wording that would clarify this =
if that is what is required.


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>

Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>;
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org; The IESG <ie=
sg@ietf.org>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Warren,




=C2=A0






Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start disc=
ussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what this document really de=
fines as I am sensing from your description there
 can be some disconnect (modulo some text may be indeed=C2=A0misleading in =
the draft).=C2=A0






=C2=A0






You said:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- a=
nd when they do, the SID=E2=80=99s

> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence avai=
lable to

> the public into perpetuity.






=C2=A0






I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Leaks do happen but only within global=C2=A0AFI/SAFI=
s. This draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not u=
sed to peer outside of a domain, collection of domains
 under same administration + of=C2=A0course=C2=A0inter-as also could happen=
.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






With that=C2=A0being said I do not see risk that due=
 to leaking there could be a situation where customer networks are exposed =
in any way externally - leaving alone that to even get
 at the=C2=A0transport level to the customer facing PE is also filtered and=
 never allowed from outside. But this is out of scope of this document as h=
ere the focus is not on underlay but overlay.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little =
piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to =
RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6 with both unicast
 and VPN AFs. That needs to be made clear that it is applicable to the latt=
er only. If other co-authors believe this is applicable=C2=A0to the former =
your DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via D=
atatracker <norepl=
y@ietf.org> wrote:






Warren Kumari has enter=
ed the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between P=
E routers

using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within=
 a

single provider network).=C2=A0 Precaution should be taken to ensure that t=
he BGP

service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sess=
ions

are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related t=
o (from

RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUS=
T NOT be

leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."



However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=E2=
=80=99s

contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available=
 to

the public into perpetuity.



While the document states that border filtering should protect against traf=
fic

injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there=
 is

the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets =
are

off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic=


into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to<=
br>
include the customer's networks too.



Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they h=
ave

to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any borde=
r

node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and mac=
hine

within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply sa=
ying

that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occ=
ur, when

the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seem=
s to

not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a mis=
sing

ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot i=
n, so

that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand=
 how

this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
























_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess


-- 


--000000000000d5865d05d7f5a0aa--


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Reviewer: Ron Bonica
Review result: Not Ready

I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.txt.
These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Area
Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments just
like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resolve
them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For more
details on the INT Directorate, see
https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/
.

Major issues:

1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. This
is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe we
shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?

2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:

  BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret,
   on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, the part
   of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label values
   for MPLS-based services.  Implementations supporting this
   specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advertisement
   of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-service
   basis.  The details of deployment designs and implementation options
   are outside the scope of this document.

s/BGP speakers that do not support this specification/Legacy BGP implementations

It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:

- the SHOULD becomes a MUST
- the mechanism is described in this document

3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS




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From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 14:18:59 +0530
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--0000000000006a49ac05d80a9b20
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Hi Ron,

Thanks for your review and please check inline below for responses.


On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 10:49 PM Ron Bonica via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: Ron Bonica
> Review result: Not Ready
>
> I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.txt.
> These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Area
> Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments
> just
> like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resolve
> them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For
> more
> details on the INT Directorate, see
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/
> .
>
> Major issues:
>
> 1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field.
> This
> is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe
> we
> shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?
>

KT> You are correct that there are no MPLS labels used in the forwarding.
The label fields are part of the BGP NLRI Encoding and not something
introduced newly. The transposition scheme leverages them for encoding
efficiency and better packing of BGP updates.


>
> 2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:
>
>   BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret,
>    on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, the part
>    of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label values
>    for MPLS-based services.  Implementations supporting this
>    specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advertisement
>    of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-service
>    basis.  The details of deployment designs and implementation options
>    are outside the scope of this document.
>
> s/BGP speakers that do not support this specification/Legacy BGP
> implementations
>

KT> I am, personally, not in favor of using the term "legacy" in this case.


>
> It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:
>
> - the SHOULD becomes a MUST
> - the mechanism is described in this document
>

KT> Ack. We can change the SHOULD to MUST.

Thanks,
Ketan


>
> 3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS
>
>
>
>

--0000000000006a49ac05d80a9b20
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Ron,

Thanks for you=
r review and please check inline below for responses.

<=
div>
On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 10:49 PM Ron Bonica via Datatracker <<=
a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org&g=
t; wrote:
Review=
er: Ron Bonica

Review result: Not Ready



I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services=
.txt.

These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Area<=
br>
Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments jus=
t

like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resolve=


them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For m=
ore

details on the INT Directorate, see

https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/=


<https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/=
>.



Major issues:



1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. T=
his

is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe w=
e

shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?

=
KT> You are correct that there are no MPLS labels used in the forwarding=
. The label fields are part of the BGP NLRI Encoding and not something intr=
oduced newly. The transposition scheme leverages them for encoding efficien=
cy and better packing of BGP updates.
=C2=A0



2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:



=C2=A0 BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret=
,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, th=
e part

=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label v=
alues

=C2=A0 =C2=A0for MPLS-based services.=C2=A0 Implementations supporting this=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advert=
isement

=C2=A0 =C2=A0of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-ser=
vice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0basis.=C2=A0 The details of deployment designs and implementat=
ion options

=C2=A0 =C2=A0are outside the scope of this document.



s/BGP speakers that do not support this specification/Legacy BGP implementa=
tions

KT> I am, personally, not in f=
avor of using the term "legacy" in this case.
=C2=A0



It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:



- the SHOULD becomes a MUST

- the mechanism is described in this document

KT> Ack. We can change the SHOULD to MUST.

Thanks,
Ketan
=C2=A0



3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS










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From: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal 
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 16:52:58 +0530
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To: bess@ietf.org
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Subject: [bess] EVPN service carving with ingress VLAN translation
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Hi,

Though rfc7432bis recommends VLAN translation to be performed at the
disposition PE (for VLAN-based and VLAN-aware bundle services), I believe
there are existing deployments where VLAN translation is performed at the
ingress PE. In this scenario, is there any guideline on whether service
carving is to be performed based on the original VLAN or translated VLAN?

I think this cannot be left implementation specific, since DF election is a
distributed algorithm and should yield the same result in all PEs that are
part of the multi-homed group.

Any feedback would be helpful..

Regards,
Muthu

--000000000000fe6cd405d80cc10d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi,

<=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small">Though rfc7432bis=C2=A0recommends VLAN translation to be =
performed at the disposition PE (for VLAN-based and VLAN-aware bundle servi=
ces), I believe there are existing deployments where VLAN translation is pe=
rformed=C2=A0at the ingress PE. In this scenario, is there any guideline=C2=
=A0on whether=C2=A0service carving is to be performed based on the original=
 VLAN or translated=C2=A0VLAN?

I think this cannot be left implementation specific, since DF elec=
tion is a distributed algorithm and should yield the same result in all PEs=
 that are part of the multi-homed group.

=

Any feedback would be helpful..
=

Regards,
Muthu


--000000000000fe6cd405d80cc10d--


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From: Alexander Vainshtein 
To: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal 
CC: "bess@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] [bess] EVPN service carving with ingress VLAN translation
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--_000_PH0PR03MB63007514EA057D6F52095389F6349PH0PR03MB6300namp_--


From nobody Tue Feb 15 07:11:18 2022
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Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[updating after the intdir review]

Thank you for the work put into this document. This protocol is important for
scalable and deployable SRv6 services. With revised -10, all my blocking
DISCUSS points are addressed, I am therefore clearing my DISCUSS ballot (the
points are kept below for archiving). As replied by email, the -10 also
addresses most of my previous COMMENTs.

Special thanks to Matthew Bocci for the shepherd's write-up including the
section about the WG consensus and document history.

Thanks as well for Ron Bonica's INT directorate review
(),
I am satisfied to see the authors exchanging with Ron on his review.

I hope that this helps to improve the document,

Regards,

-éric

# previous DISCUSS (for archiving)

As noted in https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/, a
DISCUSS ballot is a request to have a discussion on the following topics:

## Section 3.1

"IANA registry defined in section 9.2 of [RFC8986]" but there is no section 9.2
in RFC 8986. I guess it is section 10.2. Moreover, IANA registries are usually
referred to via their name/URL, e.g.,
https://www.iana.org/assignments/segment-routing/segment-routing.xhtml, and not
by a section of the RFC that created them.

## Section 3.2.1

Where is "locator node" defined ? "locator block" is defined in section 3.1 of
RFC 8986 but not the node (I can only guess that this is the "N" in the "B:N"
notation used in RFC 8986).

## Section 6

Section 9 of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16 indeed defines route types
7 and 8 but it uses non IPv4-only wording. So, s/IGMP join sync route/Multicast
Membership Report Synch Route/ + same for type 8.

# COMMENTS

## Section 1

More details on the encapsulation (plain IP in IPv6 ?) will be welcome in "The
   ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 header where the
   destination address is the SRv6 Service SID provided by the egress
   Provider Edge (PE). "

## Section 3.2.1

The transposition field appears to be about "labels", which are not qualified.
Should the reader assume that those are "MPLS labels" ? A reference to some
text would be welcome. Not being a SRv6 expert (but somehow knowledgeable on
the topic), all the text about transposition is completely opaque to me.

The section 4 appears to give some information, but there should at least be a
forward reference to it in section 3.2.1 or even better the section 4 should be
moved before section 3.2.1.

## Section 4

This section would benefit from examples & figures.

While the specification probably works well, mapping a 128-bit IPv6 SID into
what looks like a 20-bit MPLS label looks like a smart kludge (for compression
efficiency) but still...

## Section 5

"...optionally insert an SRH [RFC8754] when required..." looks like an oxymoron
to me, i.e., if it is required then it is no more optional. Same issue in other
places (notably section 6).

5th § "the ingress PE encapsulates the payload in an outer IPv6 header", is it
"payload" of the ingress packet or the whole packet itself ?

## Section 10

The protocol defined in this document is a sibling of the EPVN and other
layer-3 VPN using BGP as a control plane. I would have expected to have a
mostly identical security section. The similarity is indeed indicated in the
2nd § but this 2nd § would benefit by also giving the RFC titles rather than a
dry list of RFCs.

The 3rd § appears a little self-contradicting to my reading. The first part
rightfully confirms that SRv6 domain should be closed and makes reference to
SRH and network-programming security sections, i.e., isolation/protection in
the data plane. Then, the last part of this § is "Therefore, precaution is
necessary to ensure that the BGP service information (including associated SRv6
SID) advertised via BGP sessions are limited to peers within this trusted SR
domain. " which seems to contradict the first part. IMHO, the words "is
necessary" is an overkill, something like "Precautions should be taken to
ensure..." would be more appropriate.

To elaborate on the previous comment:

- isn't it *exactly* the same security issues as for EPVN and other BGP-based
VPN ? So, already covered by the 2nd § ?

- even if there is yet-another BGP leak with SRv6 SID, then what are the
consequences ? SRv6 data plane (as explained in the first sentences of this 3rd
§) MUST be protected anyway and will protect the SRv6 domain completely, else
the operator has more critical issues.

In short, readers will benefit from a shorter and clearer 3rd paragraph.

Final suggestion for the security section: what happens when the length of all
sub-sub-TLVs exceeds the length of the sub-TLV ? And similar corner cases. This
is of course more an implementation issue but should it be mentioned here ?

I note that the security directorate review result is "ready".




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Subject: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02
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Hi,=20

=20

I have a generic question about submitting comments against =
draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02. I read the document in detail and marked =
up a number of comments / suggestions in the PDF document. Is there any =
formal process to submit these comments and have them reviewed?=20

=20

I am new to the IETF process, hence the question=20

=20

Thanks=20

=20

Marek


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Hi, =

 
I have a generic question about submitting comments =
against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02. I read the document in detail and =
marked up a number of comments / suggestions in the PDF document. Is =
there any formal process to submit these comments and have them =
reviewed? 
 
I am new to the IETF process, hence the question =

 
Thanks 
 
Marek

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From: Alvaro Retana via Datatracker 
To: "The IESG" 
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org, bess-chairs@ietf.org, bess@ietf.org, matthew.bocci@nokia.com
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Subject: [bess] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss

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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am balloting DISCUSS because the document underspecifies the use of Endpoint
Behaviors. As a result, it is unclear when they should be checked, enforced,
or needed. Details follow.


The descriptions of the TLVs in §2 say (twice) that the "SRv6 Endpoint
behaviors which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are...etc."

   The text above ends with "etc." which means there are other possible
   behaviors. That's not a great use of normative language, even if optional.
   My initial instinct was to ask you to be specific, BUT...

   The description of the SRv6 SID Information Sub-TLV (§3.1) says that "an
   unrecognized endpoint behavior MUST NOT be considered invalid", which seems
   to mean that any behavior is ok, AND...

   There's no validation specified, except for the description of the SRv6 SID
   Structure Sub-Sub-TLV (§3.2.1), where it says that the "Argument length
   MUST be set to 0 for SIDs where the Argument is not applicable". AND...

   Several of the service descriptions in §5/§6 say that "The SRv6 Endpoint
   behavior of the SRv6 SID is entirely up to the originator of the
   advertisement. In practice, the SRv6 Endpoint behavior is..."


The result is that any endpoint behavior (even unrecognized) can be used,
while also requiring a specific setting for the argument length in some cases.

How can the argument length be validated if the endpoint behavior is unknown?

Clearly (from looking at rfc8986), not all endpoint behaviors apply to the
services defined in this document. Should a receiver accept any endpoint
behavior? What should a receiver do if a known but unrelated behavior (End,
for example) is received?

What should the receiver do if the endpoint behavior is known and applicable,
but the attribute length is not set correctly?

For any specific service (IPv4 VPN Over SRv6 Core, for example, to pick one),
should the behaviors used "in practice" be enforced? What if different behavior
is advertised? Can it safely be ignored?

Why is the Endpoint Behavior included in the Sub-TLV if (from the above) it
looks like it doesn't matter?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) To make sure, the new "BGP SRv6 Service SID Flags" registry is
intended to document the allocations for the "SRv6 SID Flags" field in the
SRv6 SID Information Sub-TLV (§3.1), right?

Please say so somewhere.  It would also be nice if the name of the field (SRv6
SID Flags) and the registry (SRv6 Service SID Flags) matched.  I realize that
fitting the full name in the figure won't work, but you can either use multiple
lines (as you have already) or call the field simply "Flags," then extend
to the full name in the description of the field...or many other ways to avoid
confusion.


(2) §3.1:

      SRv6 SID Flags (1 octet): Encodes SRv6 SID Flags - none are
      currently defined.  SHOULD be set to 0 by the sender and MUST be
      ignored by the receiver.

If/when the flags are defined, the behavior specified here won't be compatible.
Instead, a behavior that assumes that some of the flags will be known in the
future would be better.  For example: any unknown flags MUST be ignored by the
receiver.


(3) §3.1: "SRv6 Endpoint Behavior...The opaque endpoint behavior (i.e., value
0xFFFF)...MUST NOT be considered invalid by the receiver."

Ok, but the opaque behavior is not defined as invalid in rfc8986 or anywhere
else (AFAIK).  rfc8986 includes a note specifically for the cases in
this document in §8.3. So this requirement is not needed.


(4) §3.2.1: "Transposition Length of 0 ... In this case, the Transposition
Offset MUST be set to 0."

What should the receiver do if the offset is not set to 0?


(5) §3.2.1: According to rfc8986, the sum of the Loc + Func + Agr <= 128.  The
inclusion of the transposition fields changes the formula to add the new
length.  Please indicate the new constraints.  What should the receiver do if
the sum of the lengths is not <= 128?


(6) §3.2.1: "Arguments MAY be generally applicable for SIDs of only specific
SRv6 Endpoint behaviors"  In this case, "MAY" is just stating a fact (specified
in rfc8986): s/MAY/may


(7) §5: s/MUST choose to perform IPv6 encapsulation/MUST perform IPv6
encapsulation

To choose is not normatively enforceable; encapsulating is.


(8) §5:

   The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS of the egress
   PE and serves the dual purpose of providing reachability between
   ingress PE and egress PE while also encoding the SRv6 Endpoint
   behavior.

Is it ever ok for the SID to not be routable?  If so, when?  The "purpose of
providing reachability" requires the SID to be routable.  IOW, why is this
behavior recommended and not required?


(9) Both §5/§6 say that the "ingress PE SHOULD perform resolvability check for
the SRv6 Service SID before considering the received prefix for the BGP best
path computation."

By "resolvability check", do you mean the "Route Resolvability Condition" from
§9.1.2.1/rfc4271??  If so, please be explicit.

Given that we're talking about services, which table should be used to resolve
the SID?  This question is something that rfc4271 doesn't cover [1]. Please add
something similar to this text from rfc9012 (where the resolvability condition
is mentioned):

   The reachability condition is evaluated as per [RFC4271].  If the IP
   address is reachable via more than one forwarding table, local policy is
   used to determine which table to use.

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-bestpath-selection-criteria


(10) [nits]

s/multiple instances...is encountered/multiple instances...are encountered/g

Please add figure numbers to all the packet formats, etc.




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In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 14:37:30 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)" 
Cc: Anoop Ghanwani , BESS ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org" ,  "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
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Hi Jorge & Authors

I support publication of this document and have a few comments  that I
think will help clarify and improve the document.

The specification is clear on the solution with two new flags to indicate
SHT type ESI or Local Bias for NVO use cases.

Table 1 lists different tunnel encapsulations.

What I did notice is that VXLAN GPE is not included which should be.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe

Also I noticed that RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is included and that is an NVO tunnel
and is not listed in RFC 8365 which does have VXLAN GPE.

IANA codepoints table

Value    Name
   -----    ------------------------
   8        VXLAN Encapsulation
   9        NVGRE Encapsulation
   10       MPLS Encapsulation
   11       MPLS in GRE Encapsulation
   12       VXLAN GPE Encapsulation


RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is a not an NVO tunnel and is used for special use cases
for UDP based ECMP or LAG.


As well MPLS  listed is  transport technology and not NVO tunnels which
MPLS based EVPN for NG L2 VPN RFC 7432 utilizes ESI label natively by
default for PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay and is not an an NVO overlay.

As well SRv6  listed is a transport technology  and not NVO tunnels which
uses MPLS based EVPN equivalent SRv6 L2 service SID TLV is encoded in BGP
Prefix SID attribute per SRv6 BGP based services draft and utilizes ESI
label natively by default for PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay and is not an an
NVO overlay.

MPLS and SRv6 should be in a separate table maybe as it=E2=80=99s not an an=
 NVO
tunnel or maybe mention that it=E2=80=99s a transport and can take advantag=
e of SHT
flag.

I agree that SRv6 and MPLS transports should be included so they can take
advantage of the SHT flag.

The verbiage MPLS based NVO tunnel is clear and that would be in the NVO
tunnel table be MPLSoGRE RFC 4023 and all other NVO tunnels are Non MPLS
based.

Many Thanks

Gyan

On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 4:10 PM Gyan Mishra  wrote:

>
> I support publication.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gyan
>
> On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 1:41 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) <
> jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Anoop. We will fix those in the next version.
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Anoop Ghanwani 
>> *Date: *Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:19 AM
>> *To: *slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
>> *Cc: *BESS ,
>> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org <
>> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <
>> bess-chairs@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for
>> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
>>
>> I support the publication of the draft as an RFC.
>>
>>
>>
>> Below are some minor editorial comments.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anoop
>>
>>
>>
>> =3D=3D
>>
>>
>>
>> Multiple sections
>>
>>
>>
>> Probably better to replace all uses of Ethernet Segment with ES rather
>> than use them at random.
>>
>>
>>
>> Section 1
>>
>>
>>
>> Expand first use of "SID".
>>
>>
>> will keeo following
>> ->
>> will keep following
>>
>>
>>
>> Section 2.2
>>
>>
>> A value of 01
>>    indicates the intend to use
>> ->
>> A value of 01
>>    indicates the intent to use
>>
>>
>> A value of 10 indicates the intend to
>>    use
>> ->
>> A value of 10 indicates the intent to
>>    use
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM  wrote:
>>
>> Hello Working Group,
>>
>>
>>
>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
>> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon [1].
>>
>>
>>
>> This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.
>>
>>
>>
>> We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to
>> this document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with
>> IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>>
>> If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document please
>> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any
>> relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers fr=
om
>> all the Authors and Contributors.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is no IPR currently disclosed.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please
>> explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet bee=
n
>> disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>>
>>
>>
>> We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2].
>>
>>
>>
>>     Thank you,
>>
>>     Stephane & Matthew
>>
>>
>>
>>     [1]
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon/
>>
>>     [2]
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BESS mailing list
>> BESS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BESS mailing list
>> BESS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>>
> --
>
> 
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions A**rchitect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>
>
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
> --



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

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Hi=C2=A0Jorge & Authors

I support publication of this doc=
ument and have a few comments =C2=A0that I think will help clarify and impr=
ove the document.

The sp=
ecification is clear on the solution with two new flags to indicate SHT typ=
e ESI or Local Bias for NVO use cases.

Table 1 lists different tunnel encapsulations.

What I did notice is that VXLAN GPE i=
s not included which should be.


Also I noticed =
that RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is included and that is an NVO tunnel and is not lis=
ted in RFC 8365 which does have VXLAN GPE.

IANA codepoints table=C2=A0

<=
/div>
Value  =
  Name
   -----    ------------------------
   8        VXLAN Encapsulation
   9        NVGRE Encapsulation
   10       MPLS Encapsulation
   11       MPLS in GRE Encapsulation
   12       VXLAN GPE Encapsulation


RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is a not an NVO tunnel and is used for spec=
ial use cases for UDP based ECMP or LAG.

<=
div dir=3D"auto">
As well MPLS =C2=A0listed is =
=C2=A0transport technology and not NVO tunnels which MPLS based EVPN for NG=
 L2 VPN RFC 7432 utilizes ESI label natively by default for PE-CE AC MPLS b=
ased underlay and is not an an NVO overlay.

As well SRv6 =C2=A0listed is a tr=
ansport technology =C2=A0and not NVO tunnels which uses MPLS based EVPN equ=
ivalent SRv6 L2 service SID TLV is encoded in BGP Prefix SID attribute per =
SRv6 BGP based services draft and utilizes ESI label natively by default fo=
r PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay and is not an an NVO overlay.

MPLS and SRv6 s=
hould be in a separate table maybe as it=E2=80=99s not an an NVO tunnel or =
maybe mention that it=E2=80=99s a transport and can take advantage of SHT f=
lag.=C2=A0

I agree that SRv6 and MPLS transports should be included so they can =
take advantage of the SHT flag.

The verbiage MPLS based NVO tunnel is clear and that would b=
e in the NVO tunnel table be MPLSoGRE RFC 4023 and all other NVO tunnels ar=
e Non MPLS based. =C2=A0=C2=A0

Many Thanks=C2=A0

<=
div dir=3D"auto">Gyan

<=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 4:10 PM Gyan M=
ishra <hayabu=
sagsm@gmail.com> wrote:

I support publication.

Thanks=C2=A0

Gyan

On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 1:41 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunny=
vale) <jorg=
e.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:











Thank you Anoop. We will fix those in the next version.
<=
/div>


Jorge


=C2=A0





From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>

Date: Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:19 AM

To: sli=
tkows.ietf@gmail.com <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Cc: BESS <bess=
@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org<=
/a> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.or=
g <bess-ch=
airs@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf=
-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon








I support the publication of the draft as an RFC.






=C2=A0






Below are some minor editorial comments.






=C2=A0






Anoop






=C2=A0






=3D=3D






=C2=A0




Multiple sections




=C2=A0






Probably better to replace all uses of Ethernet Segment with ES rathe=
r than use them at random.






=C2=A0






Section 1




=C2=A0






Expand first use of "SID".






will keeo following

->

will keep following




=C2=A0






Section 2.2








A value of 01

=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the intend to use

->

A value of 01

=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the intent to use






A value of 10 indicates the intend to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0use

->

A value of 10 indicates the intent to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0use






=C2=A0






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:











Hello Working Group,



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 



This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-ev=
pn-mh-split-horizon [1].




=C2=A0



This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.



=C2=A0



We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th=
is document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF =
IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).<=
/u>



If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document please res=
pond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevan=
t undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all=
 the Authors and Contributors.



=C2=A0



There is no IPR currently disclosed.



=C2=A0



If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly=
 respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i=
n conformance with IETF rules.



=C2=A0



We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2]. <=
/u>



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thank you,



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Stephane & Matthew



=C2=A0



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0[1] 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon/=




=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [2] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw<=
u>



=C2=A0






_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess










_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess


-- 

Gyan Mishra
Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0
Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
M 301 502-1347








-- 
=

Gyan Mishra
Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0<=
/p>
Email gyan.s.mishra@ver=
izon.com<=
br>
M 301 502-1347




--0000000000009732bf05d813aa57--


From nobody Tue Feb 15 19:17:09 2022
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Subject: [bess] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with COMMENT)
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Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you to Joseph Salowey for the SECDIR review.

Thank you to the authors for the implementation report pointer
(draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status)

I support Alvaro Retana’s DISCUSS position.

I also support Warren Kumari’s DISCUSS position.  In particular, discussing the
magnitude of the exposure of an internal topology due to a BGP leak would be
helpful to document.

** Section 8.  It would be worth repeating the two key security assumptions
from RFC8402:

OLD
SRv6 operates within a trusted SR domain with filtering of traffic at
   the domain boundaries.

NEW
SRv6 operates within a trusted SR domain with filtering of traffic at the
domain boundaries. Likewise, there is an assumed trust model such that any node
adding an SRH to the packet is assumed to be allowed to do so.




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References:  
In-Reply-To: 
From: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal 
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:52:14 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Alexander Vainshtein 
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b9ab7005d82006fa"
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Subject: Re: [bess] [EXTERNAL] EVPN service carving with ingress VLAN translation
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Hi Sasha,

Thanks for your response. I agree, using a manually configured ID is the
best option when VID translation is performed at one or more ingress PEs
that are part of the multi-homed group to obtain a predictable default DF
election result..

That said, the current situation is, different vendors seem to use
different VIDs for DF election when VID translation is performed at the
ingress PE; some seem to use the translated VID and some even the BGP
router ID when the translation rule removes the tag entirely (making it
untagged) without proving a configurable ID..

How about adding some text to rfc7432bis section 6?


   An Ethernet Tag ID is a 32-bit field containing either a 12-bit or
   24-bit identifier that identifies a particular broadcast domain
   (e.g., a VLAN) in an EVPN instance.  The 12-bit identifier is called
   the VLAN ID (VID).  An EVPN instance consists of one or more
   broadcast domains (one or more VLANs).  VLANs are assigned to a given
   EVPN instance by the provider of the EVPN service.  A given VLAN can
   itself be represented by multiple VIDs.  In such cases, the PEs
   participating in that VLAN for a given EVPN instance are responsible
   for performing VLAN ID translation to/from locally attached CE
   devices.



   An Ethernet Tag ID is a 32-bit field containing either a 12-bit or
   24-bit identifier that identifies a particular broadcast domain
   (e.g., a VLAN) in an EVPN instance.  The 12-bit identifier is called
   the VLAN ID (VID).  An EVPN instance consists of one or more
   broadcast domains (one or more VLANs).  VLANs are assigned to a given
   EVPN instance by the provider of the EVPN service.  A given VLAN can
   itself be represented by multiple VIDs.  In such cases, the PEs
   participating in that VLAN for a given EVPN instance are responsible
   for performing VLAN ID translation to/from locally attached CE
   devices.


*If a PE performs VID translation of frames received from   locally
attached CE (including removing all tags making it untagged),   the PE
SHOULD provide a configurable ID for the EVPN instance for   the purpose of
DF election.*


Regards,
Muthu

On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 6:53 PM Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com> wrote:

> Muthu,
>
> Quoting from Section 3 of 7432bis
> 
> :
>
>
>
>    Ethernet Tag:  Used to represent a BD that is configured on a given
>
>       ES for the purposes of DF election and  identification
>
>       for frames received from the CE.  Note that any of the following
>
>       may be used to represent a BD: VIDs (including Q-in-Q tags),
>
>       configured IDs, VNIs (Virtual Extensible Local Area Network
>
>       (VXLAN) Network Identifiers), normalized VIDs, I-SIDs (Service
>
>       Instance Identifiers), etc., as long as the representation of the
>
>       BDs is configured consistently across the multihomed PEs attached
>
>       to that ES.
>
>
>
> As I see it, using manually configured IDs can address your concerns.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com
>
>
>
> *From:* BESS  *On Behalf Of * Muthu Arul Mozhi
> Perumal
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2022 1:23 PM
> *To:* bess@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [bess] EVPN service carving with ingress VLAN
> translation
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Though rfc7432bis recommends VLAN translation to be performed at the
> disposition PE (for VLAN-based and VLAN-aware bundle services), I believe
> there are existing deployments where VLAN translation is performed at the
> ingress PE. In this scenario, is there any guideline on whether service
> carving is to be performed based on the original VLAN or translated VLAN?
>
>
>
> I think this cannot be left implementation specific, since DF election is
> a distributed algorithm and should yield the same result in all PEs that
> are part of the multi-homed group.
>
>
>
> Any feedback would be helpful..
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Muthu
>
>
> Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 08:00:24 -0800
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To: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" , bess-chairs@ietf.org
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is only remote )
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Hi!

I=E2=80=99m wondering about the remote-only part of your message below.

The fact that the Chairs cannot make it to Vienna should not be a deterrent
to having a portion of the meeting in-person.  I don=E2=80=99t know what is=
 the
mixture of people from the WG who will be there in person is, but even
assuming =E2=80=9Csome", the tools should be in place for the chairs to run=
 the
meeting remotely =E2=80=94 there are some Meetecho enhancements coming.

In general, we=E2=80=99re recommending that if both chairs can=E2=80=99t ma=
ke it to have a
designated person in the room in case there=E2=80=99s a need to coordinate =
the
queue, etc.


My 2c.

Alvaro.

On February 18, 2022 at 10:22:56 AM, Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) (
mankamis=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org) wrote:

All,

Please send me slot request for IETF 113. Please note BESS session would be
only remote since none of the chairs are able to travel in person this
time.





Mankamana
_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

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=

Hi!<=
/div>

I=E2=80=99m wonderi=
ng about the remote-only part of your message below.

The fact that the Chairs cannot make it t=
o Vienna should not be a deterrent to having a portion of the meeting in-pe=
rson.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t know what is the mixture of people from the WG =
who will be there in person is, but even assuming =E2=80=9Csome", the =
tools should be in place for the chairs to run the meeting remotely =E2=80=
=94 there are some Meetecho enhancements coming.

In general, we=E2=80=99re recommending that i=
f both chairs can=E2=80=99t make it to have a designated person in the room=
 in case there=E2=80=99s a need to coordinate the queue, etc.=C2=A0


My 2c.

Alvaro.
 
On =
February 18, 2022 at 10:22:56 AM, Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) (mankamis=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.i=
etf.org) wrote:
 
=











All, 


Please send me slot=
 request for IETF 113. Please note BESS session would be only remote since =
none of the chairs are able to travel in person this time.



=C2=A0


=C2=A0


Mankamana 




_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

 
<=
/body>

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From: John Scudder 
To: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , "bess@ietf.org" , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [bess] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
To: John Scudder 
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Subject: Re: [bess] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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--_000_VI1PR0701MB699119C5360BC2BD1EA606F9EB379VI1PR0701MB6991_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
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Hi John

I=92ll send a note to the IDR list requesting review - is a couple of weeks=
 sufficient?



Matthew

________________________________
From: John Scudder 
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 5:29:57 PM
To: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) 
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org ; bess-chairs@ietf.org ; The IESG ; bess@ietf.org ; idr-chairs@ietf.org 
Subject: Re: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (w=
ith DISCUSS and COMMENT)

After sleeping on it I was too hasty in saying =93water under the bridge=94=
 and moving on.

I=92d like to request that you correct the oversight and seek input from ID=
R =97 what would have happened if the document had been cross-WGLC=92d with=
 IDR. Possibly this will result in no input (that happens sometimes) of cou=
rse. But, if you start now, I don=92t anticipate it will turn into the long=
 pole for moving the document forward.

Thanks,

=97John

On Feb 17, 2022, at 2:15 PM, John Scudder > wrote:


Thanks, Matthew. I didn=92t think of searching for it under the individual =
submission name; when I read =93cross-reviewed=94 I interpreted that as WGL=
C, not WG adoption.

It looks to me as though there was no reply to the notification message you=
 reference, do you agree? (Of course there might have been people who comme=
nted on the BESS list, but I don=92t see anything cc=92d to IDR.)

It does seem to me as though, considering the unusually close association b=
etween this spec and an active IDR draft, it would have made sense to cross=
-WGLC it, including a specific pointer to the overlap. I mean, I acknowledg=
e that might have come to nothing since there=92s considerable overlap betw=
een the groups =97 but it=92s not universal overlap. Anyway, it=92s water u=
nder the bridge now.

I=92ve added the IDR chairs to the cc just in case any of them want to comm=
ent.

Regards,

=97John

On Feb 17, 2022, at 5:52 AM, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) > wrote:



Hi John

Regarding comment (1), we sent a notice to the IDR WG at WG Adoption time:

[Idr] FW: [bess] WG adoption and IPR poll for draft-dawra-bess-srv6-service=
s-02 (ietf.org)


Regards

Matthew

From: John Scudder via Datatracker >
Date: Wednesday, 16 February 2022 at 21:39
To: The IESG >
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org >, bess-chairs@ietf.org >, bess@ietf.org >, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) >, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) >
Subject: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with =
DISCUSS and COMMENT)

John Scudder has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/blog/handl=
ing-iesg-ballot-positions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Xv1IvUswjT0bKzhaKlbofwb5-5YGQ1hN=
oNs2zhAoPwPpnP-yYL6GDMMUd9RiSA$
for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bes=
s-srv6-services/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Xv1IvUswjT0bKzhaKlbofwb5-5YGQ1hNoNs2zhAoPw=
PpnP-yYL6GDMPLJdcbPg$



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

1. The shepherd writeup for this document says =93It also received an RTG D=
IR
review and cross-reviewed with the IDR working group=94. Searching in my ID=
R
inbox and the IDR mailing list archives, I don=92t find any sign of the
cross-review =97 can you please point me to it?

2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looked into is, th=
e
document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the NLRI to carry =
the
Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively split across th=
e
NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential error modes if th=
e
Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the NLRI is retai=
ned?

(An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be to define a =
new
NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively repurposing fie=
lds
within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Such an NLRI ty=
pe
would, for example, presumably state in its specification that if it was
received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that would constitut=
e an
error.)

3. As Warren Kumari points out in his DISCUSS, =93leaks happen=94. Subseque=
nt
discussion turned quickly to the assertion that no, they don=92t, in VPN ad=
dress
families. Let=92s accept that claim for the sake of conversation. It=92s st=
ill the
case that sometimes (often?) routes are distributed from VPN address famili=
es
into the Global Internet table. When this is done, by default, all the path
attributes come along for the ride. Anyone who thinks this is just a
hypothetical case might want to look back to (for example) significant netw=
ork
outages that were caused around a decade ago by leakage of BGP Attribute 12=
8
(ATTR_SET, RFC 6368) into the global Internet.

The SIDs contained in these if-they-were-to-leak routes potentially give an
attacker a means of directing packets into a VPN customer=92s internal netw=
ork.

4. Speaking of Warren=92s DISCUSS, the shepherd=92s writeup indicates =93so=
lid [WG]
consensus=94; however, there doesn=92t seem to be consensus even amongst th=
e
authors as to whether Sections 5.3 and 5.4 are appropriate. This is a fairl=
y
fundamental disagreement! An illustration of the disagreement is
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/K1JK=
xGn19BXALs3rUzUAaGTZi0Y/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Xv1IvUswjT0bKzhaKlbofwb5-5YGQ1hNoN=
s2zhAoPwPpnP-yYL6GDMO5LL82ag$ :

=93So I can see why some people may have thought oh since transport in SRv6=
 comes
for free let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes I can=
 see
that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to enable), =
*but
I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here.* This comes as a
consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI (perhaps new form=
at
and new SAFI) to an attribute.=94

(Emphasis added.)

It's of course possible for an author to be in the rough as regards consens=
us,
just as any other WG contributor, but it's a little unusual, and this
disagreement doesn't even seem to have been previously aired. For this reas=
on,
I have to question the strength of the consensus behind this document, and =
ask
the WG chairs to weigh in regarding whether consensus on at least this poin=
t
needs to be checked before we proceed forward.

5. Finally, I have to question the length of the author list. As I=92m sure=
 you
know, the guidance is to limit author lists to no more than five, other tha=
n
under unusual circumstances. I would have expected to find an explanation o=
f
the circumstances around the author list of this document in the shepherd
writeup; there is none. (It=92s a specific check item in Guidelines to Auth=
ors of
Internet-Drafts, https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/how/ids/g=
uidelines/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Xv1IvUswjT0bKzhaKlbofwb5-5YGQ1hNoNs2zhAoPwPpnP-y=
YL6GDMPZa04p_w$ )

The easiest way to resolve this would be to trim the author list per the
suggestions in RFC 7322 =A74.1.1, of course.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

1. I support Warren Kumari=92s DISCUSS.

2. (Further comments TBD and I apologize for not providing them now; I want=
ed
to get this sent off though.)


--_000_VI1PR0701MB699119C5360BC2BD1EA606F9EB379VI1PR0701MB6991_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable












Hi John









I=92ll send a note to the IDR list requesting review - is a couple of weeks=
 sufficient?























Matthew













From: John Scudder <jgs@=
juniper.net>

Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 5:29:57 PM

To: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-srv6-=
services@ietf.org>; bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>; T=
he IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>; idr-cha=
irs@ietf.org <idr-chairs@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services=
-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

 









I=92d like to request that you correct the oversight and se=
ek input from IDR =97 what would have happened if the document had been cro=
ss-WGLC=92d with IDR. Possibly this will result in no input (that happens s=
ometimes) of course. But, if you start now,
 I don=92t anticipate it will turn into the long pole for moving the docume=
nt forward.







Thanks,







=97John







On Feb 17, 2022, at 2:15 PM, John Scudder <jgs=3D40juniper.net@dma=
rc.ietf.org> wrote:






Thanks,
 Matthew. I didn=92t think of searching for it under the individual submiss=
ion name; when I read =93cross-reviewed=94 I interpreted that as WGLC, not =
WG adoption.



It
 looks to me as though there was no reply to the notification message you r=
eference, do you agree? (Of course there might have been people who comment=
ed on the BESS list, but I don=92t see anything cc=92d to IDR.)



It
 does seem to me as though, considering the unusually close association bet=
ween this spec and an active IDR draft, it would have made sense to cross-W=
GLC it, including a specific pointer to the overlap. I mean, I acknowledge =
that might have come to nothing
 since there=92s considerable overlap between the groups =97 but it=92s not=
 universal overlap. Anyway, it=92s water under the bridge now.



I=92ve
 added the IDR chairs to the cc just in case any of them want to comment.



Regards,



=97John





On Feb 17, 2022, at 5:52 AM, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com> wro=
te:







Hi John



Regarding comment (1), we sent a notice to the IDR WG at WG Adoption time:<=
br class=3D"">


[Idr] FW: [bess] WG adoption and IPR poll for draft-dawra-bess-srv6-service=
s-02 (ietf.org)





Regards



Matthew



From: John Scudder via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>

Date: Wednesday, 16 February 2022 at 21:39

To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<=
/a>>

Cc: dr=
aft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.o=
rg>,
bess-chairs@ietf.org=
 <bess-chairs@ietf.or=
g>,
bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew =
(Nokia - GB) <matt=
hew.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>

Subject: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with =
DISCUSS and COMMENT)



John Scudder has entered the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.iet=
f.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Xv1IvUswjT0bKzha=
Klbofwb5-5YGQ1hNoNs2zhAoPwPpnP-yYL6GDMMUd9RiSA$

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://urldefense.com/v3/__ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/__;!!NEt6yMaO-=
gk!Xv1IvUswjT0bKzhaKlbofwb5-5YGQ1hNoNs2zhAoPwPpnP-yYL6GDMPLJdcbPg$







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



1. The shepherd writeup for this document says =93It also received an RTG D=
IR

review and cross-reviewed with the IDR working group=94. Searching in my ID=
R

inbox and the IDR mailing list archives, I don=92t find any sign of the

cross-review =97 can you please point me to it?



2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looked into is, th=
e

document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the NLRI to carry =
the

Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively split across th=
e

NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential error modes if th=
e

Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the NLRI is retai=
ned?



(An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be to define a =
new

NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively repurposing fie=
lds

within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Such an NLRI ty=
pe

would, for example, presumably state in its specification that if it was
received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that would constitut=
e an

error.)



3. As Warren Kumari points out in his DISCUSS, =93leaks happen=94. Subseque=
nt

discussion turned quickly to the assertion that no, they don=92t, in VPN ad=
dress

families. Let=92s accept that claim for the sake of conversation. It=92s st=
ill the

case that sometimes (often?) routes are distributed from VPN address famili=
es

into the Global Internet table. When this is done, by default, all the path=


attributes come along for the ride. Anyone who thinks this is just a

hypothetical case might want to look back to (for example) significant netw=
ork

outages that were caused around a decade ago by leakage of BGP Attribute 12=
8

(ATTR_SET, RFC 6368) into the global Internet.



The SIDs contained in these if-they-were-to-leak routes potentially give an=


attacker a means of directing packets into a VPN customer=92s internal netw=
ork.



4. Speaking of Warren=92s DISCUSS, the shepherd=92s writeup indicates =93so=
lid [WG]

consensus=94; however, there doesn=92t seem to be consensus even amongst th=
e

authors as to whether Sections 5.3 and 5.4 are appropriate. This is a fairl=
y

fundamental disagreement! An illustration of the disagreement is

https://urldefense.com=
/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/K1JKxGn19BXALs3rUzUAaGTZi0=
Y/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Xv1IvUswjT0bKzhaKlbofwb5-5YGQ1hNoNs2zhAoPwPpnP-yYL6GDMO5=
LL82ag$ :



=93So I can see why some people may have thought oh since transport in SRv6=
 comes

for free let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes I can=
 see

that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to enable), =
*but

I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here.* This comes as a

consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI (perhaps new form=
at

and new SAFI) to an attribute.=94



(Emphasis added.)



It's of course possible for an author to be in the rough as regards consens=
us,

just as any other WG contributor, but it's a little unusual, and this

disagreement doesn't even seem to have been previously aired. For this reas=
on,

I have to question the strength of the consensus behind this document, and =
ask

the WG chairs to weigh in regarding whether consensus on at least this poin=
t

needs to be checked before we proceed forward.



5. Finally, I have to question the length of the author list. As I=92m sure=
 you

know, the guidance is to limit author lists to no more than five, other tha=
n

under unusual circumstances. I would have expected to find an explanation o=
f

the circumstances around the author list of this document in the shepherd
writeup; there is none. (It=92s a specific check item in Guidelines to Auth=
ors of

Internet-Drafts, https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/how/ids/gu=
idelines/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Xv1IvUswjT0bKzhaKlbofwb5-5YGQ1hNoNs2zhAoPwPpnP-yY=
L6GDMPZa04p_w$ )


The easiest way to resolve this would be to trim the author list per the
suggestions in RFC 7322 =A74.1.1, of course.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



1. I support Warren Kumari=92s DISCUSS.



2. (Further comments TBD and I apologize for not providing them now; I want=
ed

to get this sent off though.)















--_000_VI1PR0701MB699119C5360BC2BD1EA606F9EB379VI1PR0701MB6991_--


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From: John Scudder 
To: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , "bess@ietf.org" , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Subject: [bess] Review request for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11
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IDR Working Group

This draft has completed working group last call in the BESS working group =
and is currently being reviewed by the IESG.

We would appreciate review and comments by participants in the IDR working =
group.

The latest version of the draft is available here:  draft-ietf-bess-srv6-se=
rvices-11 - SRv6 BGP based Overlay Services

Please send any comments in reply to this thread by 26th February 2022.

Thank you,

Matthew

--_000_VI1PR0701MB699107A5F2023B5C593A2E59EB379VI1PR0701MB6991_
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IDR Working Group


 


This draft has completed working group last call in =
the BESS working group and is currently being reviewed by the IESG.



 


We would appreciate review and comments by participa=
nts in the IDR working group.


 


The latest version of the draft is available here:&n=
bsp; 
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11 - SRv6 BGP based Overlay Services=



 


Please send any comments in reply to this thread by =
26th February 2022.


 


Thank you,


 


Matthew








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From: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
To: "idr@ietf.org" 
CC: "" , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Review request for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11
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IDR WG

Please note that the deadline for comments is Friday 4th March, NOT 26th Fe=
b.

Matthew

________________________________
From: Idr  on behalf of Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <=
matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 6:52 pm
To: idr@ietf.org
Cc: ; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess@ietf.o=
rg
Subject: [Idr] Review request for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11

IDR Working Group

This draft has completed working group last call in the BESS working group =
and is currently being reviewed by the IESG.

We would appreciate review and comments by participants in the IDR working =
group.

The latest version of the draft is available here:  draft-ietf-bess-srv6-se=
rvices-11 - SRv6 BGP based Overlay Services

Please send any comments in reply to this thread by 26th February 2022.

Thank you,

Matthew

--_000_DBAPR07MB69842C99238171B5AEE5C006EB379DBAPR07MB6984eurp_
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IDR WG







Please note that the deadline for comments is Friday 4th M=
arch, NOT 26th Feb.











Matthew











From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>

Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 6:52 pm

To: idr@ietf.org

Cc: <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org=
; bess@ietf.org

Subject: [Idr] Review request for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11

 








IDR Working Group



 



This draft has completed working group last call in the BESS working group =
and is currently being reviewed by the IESG.




 



We would appreciate review and comments by participants in the IDR working =
group.



 



The latest version of the draft is available here:  
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11 - SRv6 BGP based Overlay Services



 



Please send any comments in reply to this thread by 26th Februar=
y 2022.



 



Thank you,



 



Matthew
















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From: John Scudder 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , BESS , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Robert Raszuk 
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 22:48:26 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: John Scudder 
Cc: Ketan Talaulikar , The IESG ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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--000000000000ae9e9205d851d777
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Hi John,

Question: SAFI 128 is called =E2=80=9CMPLS-labeled VPN address=E2=80=9D in =
the IANA SAFI
> registry. Shouldn=E2=80=99t this be renamed? I mean, I guess it should ha=
ve been
> renamed as of RFC 8365, but better late than never. I=E2=80=99m not sure =
quite what
> the name should become, but =E2=80=9CMPLS-labeled=E2=80=9D is manifestly =
wrong. Even
> =E2=80=9Clabeled=E2=80=9D is wrong since the thing you=E2=80=99re stuffin=
g in there isn=E2=80=99t a label.
> Since you=E2=80=99re the last one to touch it :-) if we can agree a bette=
r name for
> the SAFI I think it would be appropriate to add that to your IANA
> Considerations.
>

My suggestion would be: "VPN address & context"  or "Context & VPN address"

Thx,
R.

--000000000000ae9e9205d851d777
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi John,

Question: SAFI 128 is =
called =E2=80=9CMPLS-labeled VPN address=E2=80=9D in the IANA SAFI registry=
. Shouldn=E2=80=99t this be renamed? I mean, I guess it should have been re=
named as of RFC 8365, but better late than never. I=E2=80=99m not sure quit=
e what the name should become, but =E2=80=9CMPLS-labeled=E2=80=9D is manife=
stly wrong. Even =E2=80=9Clabeled=E2=80=9D is wrong since the thing you=E2=
=80=99re stuffing in there isn=E2=80=99t a label. Since you=E2=80=99re the =
last one to touch it :-) if we can agree a better name for the SAFI I think=
 it would be appropriate to add that to your IANA Considerations.

My suggestion would be: "VPN address & =
context"=C2=A0 or "Context & VPN address"

=

Thx,
R.




--000000000000ae9e9205d851d777--


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From: John Scudder 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , BESS , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
Thread-Topic: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 22:19:39 +0000
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From: John Scudder 
To: Robert Raszuk 
CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , BESS , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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From: Alvaro Retana 
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:28:45 -0800
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To: Ketan Talaulikar 
Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  The IESG , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On February 18, 2022 at 10:53:20 AM, Ketan Talaulikar wrote:

Hi!

We're still not on the same page.


[Cut the indentation to make it more readable.]

> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
> > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
> > > >
> > > > Clearly (from looking at rfc8986), not all endpoint behaviors apply=
 to
> > > > the services defined in this document. Should a receiver accept any
> > > > endpoint behavior? What should a receiver do if a known but unrelat=
ed
> > > > behavior (End, for example) is received?
> > ...
> > > > For any specific service (IPv4 VPN Over SRv6 Core, for example, to =
pick
> > > > one), should the behaviors used "in practice" be enforced? What if
> > > > different behavior is advertised? Can it safely be ignored?
> >
> > These two are related: Should only specific behaviors (per service) be
> > accepted?
> >
> > If yes, I need you to specify which are those behaviors and what
> > happens if a different (known) one is received.
> >
> > If no, what does it mean for the service if an unrelated behavior is
> > advertised?
>
> KT> So, this would be a result of a bug (?) on the egress PE that signals=
 a
> wrong behavior. Since the receiver is not validating, the service traffic
> would still arrive at the egress PE but the handling might be erroneous d=
ue
> to wrong behavior. The issue still manifests on the egress PE due to its =
bug.
> Somewhat similar to what might happen if the egress PE were to signal a l=
abel
> associated with a wrong context/service as a VPN label in MPLS VPNs.

Verifying that a label is correct is not the same as confirming that
the Behavior is plausible for the service.

I understand how the ingress PE cannot validate an unknown Behavior,
but not validating a known Behavior is not right. =C2=A0If the Behavior is
unknown, the ingress doesn't have any idea of what the egress may do,
but if the Behavior is known, it does!

=C2=A72 lists Behaviors that may correspond to L2/L3 Services. =C2=A0 The
subsections in =C2=A75 and =C2=A76 list the Endpoint Behaviors used "in
practice" for each of the services.

This is what I would like to see: =C2=A0For example, =C2=A75.1 (IPv4 VPN Ov=
er
SRv6 Core) says that "In practice, the SRv6 Endpoint behavior is
End.DX4 or End.DT4." =C2=A0The ingress PE should then be able to validate
that the Endpoint Behavior is one of these...and take appropriate
actions if it isn't. =C2=A0Why is that not the case? =C2=A0Not taking this
simple step opens up (as you mention) the possibility of a bug
creeping in, but also the ability of the egress to signal any behavior
which could result in an unexpected or incorrect action.

This type of checking is the minimum that should be done.



...
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
> > > > COMMENT:
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
...
> KT> I believe we were discussing the part of the "SID being routable" as =
in
> via routing protocol (i.e. IGP/BGP transport). The next paragraph is one =
that
> covers the base BGP "resolvability" part and does elaborate on the variou=
s
> mechanisms like "alternate steering mechanisms" (e.g. any tunnel, SR Poli=
cy,
> etc.).

Yes (let me reset a little) -- this is the current text (from =C2=A75):

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS of the e=
gress
=C2=A0 =C2=A0PE and serves the dual purpose of providing reachability betwe=
en
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ingress PE and egress PE while also encoding the SRv6 Endpoint
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0When steering for SRv6 services is based on shortest path forw=
arding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g., best-effort or IGP Flexible Algorithm
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-lsr-flex-algo]) to the egress PE, the ingress PE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulates the IPv4 or IPv6 customer packet in an outer IPv6=
 header
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(using H.Encaps or H.Encaps.Red flavors specified in [RFC8986]=
) where
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the destination address is the SRv6 Service SID associated wit=
h the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0related BGP route update. =C2=A0Therefore, the ingress PE SHOU=
LD perform
=C2=A0 =C2=A0resolvability check for the SRv6 Service SID before considerin=
g the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0received prefix for the BGP best path computation. =C2=A0The r=
esolvability
=C2=A0 =C2=A0is evaluated as per [RFC4271]. =C2=A0If the SRv6 SID is reacha=
ble via more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0than one forwarding table, local policy is used to determine w=
hich
=C2=A0 =C2=A0table to use. =C2=A0The result of an SRv6 Service SID resolvab=
ility (e.g.,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when provided via IGP Flexible Algorithm) can be ignored if th=
e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ingress PE has a local policy that allows an alternate steerin=
g
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanism to reach the egress PE. =C2=A0The details of such st=
eering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms are outside the scope of this document.


My point is that it is a requirement for the SID to be reachable --
independent of how it is resolved: IGP, BGP, "alternate steering
mechanisms", etc. =C2=A0Otherwise it can't be used.

If we agree with that then the requirement should be reflected in the
text: s/SHOULD/MUST/g


Thanks!

Alvaro.


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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is only remote )
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--_000_SJ0PR84MB19920CFFB676F342A7A24C6594389SJ0PR84MB1992NAMP_
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Hi Mankamana,

Requesting 10 minutes slots on behalf of Vinayak and myself for following t=
wo drafts:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saum-bess-dampening-backoff/

Regards,
Saumya.

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mankamana Mishra (ma=
nkamis)
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 8:52 PM
To: bess@ietf.org
Subject: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is only remo=
te )

All,
Please send me slot request for IETF 113. Please note BESS session would be=
 only remote since none of the chairs are able to travel in person this tim=
e.


Mankamana

--_000_SJ0PR84MB19920CFFB676F342A7A24C6594389SJ0PR84MB1992NAMP_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Ma=
nkamana,


=
 


Reque=
sting 10 minutes slots on behalf of Vinayak and myself for following two dr=
afts:


=
 


https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/


=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saum-bess-dampening-backoff/


=
 


Regar=
ds,


Saumy=
a.


=
 






From:=
 BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)

Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 8:52 PM

To: bess@ietf.org

Subject: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is on=
ly remote )






 


All, 


Please send me slot=
 request for IETF 113. Please note BESS session would be only remote since =
none of the chairs are able to travel in person this time.



 


 


Mankamana 






--_000_SJ0PR84MB19920CFFB676F342A7A24C6594389SJ0PR84MB1992NAMP_--


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From: Alexander Vainshtein 
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)" 
CC: "bess@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df.all@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Queries on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df
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Jorge,
Lots of thanks for your response and apologies for my delay.

My colleagues and I have yet another question pertaining to non-preemptive=
 mode of preference-based DF election.

The draft says that if the administrative preference of the "recovering" P=
E is neither higher than that of the "highest PE" nor lower than that of "=
lowest PE", the "recovering" PE shall advertise its EVPN Type 4 with its a=
dministrative preference and DP set to 1.
To me this means that if all the PEs have been configured with the same pr=
eference and "don't preempt me", the recovering PE would preempt the curre=
nt DF if its PE-IP address happens to be lower than that of the current DF=
.

This situation could be easily avoided if the checks would be for "higher =
or equal" for the "highest PE" and "lower or equal" for the "lowest PE" an=
d not as in the draft.

What, if anything, did I miss?

Regards,
Sasha

Office: +972-39266302
Cell:      +972-549266302
Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) 
Sent: Sunday, February 6, 2022 1:41 PM
To: Alexander Vainshtein ; draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-pref-df.all@ietf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Queries on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df

Hi Sasha,

Sorry for the delay, this email fell through the cracks..

Please see in-line.

Thanks for the feedback.
Jorge

From: Alexander Vainshtein >
Date: Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:12 PM
To: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df.all@ietf.org >
Cc: bess@ietf.org >
Subject: Queries on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df
Hi,
I have a few questions with regard to draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df:

1.       The first statement in Section 4.4 of the draft says that  "a cap=
ability to NOT preempt the existing DF for a given Ethernet Tag is require=
d and therefore added to the DF Election extended community". This stateme=
nt looks problematic to me because:

a.       Section 2.2 of RFC 8584 says that "A PE SHOULD attach the DF Election Extended=
 Community to any advertised ES route"

b.       To the best of my understanding, the ES route in the quoted state=
ment means an EVPN Ethernet Segment (Type 4) route defined in Section-7.4 =
of RFC 7432

c.       The NLRI of this route does not contain information about any Eth=
ernet Tag and, to the best of my understanding, just  a single copy of thi=
s route per MH ES to which a given PE is attached is advertised by the PE

d.       My conclusion is that non-preemption of the existing DF can be on=
ly advertised per ES/virtual ES and can only be applied to all EVI and all=
 Ethernet tags that are attached to this MH ES.  Is this understanding cor=
rect?

                                                                          =
             i.      If not, can you please clarify what I am missing

                                                                          =
           ii.      If yes, may I suggest that you update the draft accord=
ingly?
[jorge] yes, that's a fair point. We changed the text to:
"a capability to NOT preempt the existing DF (for all the Ethernet Tags in=
 the ES) is required and therefore added to the DF Election extended commu=
nity."



2.       The description of the non-preemptive DF Election procedure in it=
em#5 of Section 4.4. of the draft says that, upon recovery of a previously=
 failed multi-homed ES, the supporting PE shall start a bott timer (or a h=
old timer) that is "applied between the INIT and the DF_WAIT states in the=
 DF Election Finite State Machine described in [RFC8584]". From my POV:

a.       This description is equivalent to introduction of a  new state in=
 the DF Election Finite State Machine defined in Section 2.2 of RFC 8584
[jorge] I think the use of a boot timer is a normal practice in any multih=
oming scenario (not only EVPN based), so that the PE starts the multi-homi=
ng procedures only when the infrastructure protocols are up and running. A=
s an example, this boot timer would prevent a PE from running DF Election =
and take over too soon, if the underlay IGP has not converged yet or BGP i=
s still converging. As such, IMO it is applicable to any DF Election and n=
ot only this document. Maybe a topic for rfc-7432bis?


b.       As a consequence, a formal definition of the modified DF Election=
 Finite State Machine should be added to the draft, preferably preserving =
the style of RFC 8584. The following points require explicit clarification=
 IMHO:

                  =20                                                     =
               i.      In which cases the new DF Election FSM should be us=
ed (e.g., I assume that it should not be used if non-preemptive DF electio=
n mode is not configured). One scenario that deserves special attention is=
 the scenario in which Non-Preemptive DF Election mode has been advertised=
 by some, but not all PEs attached to the specific MH ES

                                                                          =
           ii.      Whether the ES route for the recovered ES representati=
ve eventually should be re-advertised with the configured preference and c=
onfigured DF mode, and, if yes, when should this happen.
[jorge] as discussed above, if the boot timer is applicable to all DF Algs=
 (I think it is), that modification may belong to rfc-7432bis instead. Thi=
s document should focus on the DF Election Algorithm details only. Also, a=
bout the mix of non-revertive and revertive PEs in the same ES, the text s=
trongly recommends not to do that.


Your timely feedback will be highly appreciated.

Regards, and lots of thanks in advance,
Sasha

Office: +972-39266302
Cell:      +972-549266302
Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com


Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information =
of Ribbon Communications Inc. and its Affiliates that is confidential and/=
or proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, dis=
closure, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express =
permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, =
please notify the sender immediately and then delete all copies, including=
 any attachments.

Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information =
of Ribbon Communications Inc. and its Affiliates that is confidential and/=
or proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, dis=
closure, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express =
permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, =
please notify the sender immediately and then delete all copies, including=
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Jorge,<=
/span>


Lots of thanks for=
 your response and apologies for my delay.


 <=
/span>


My colleagues and =
I have yet another question pertaining to non-preemptive mode of preferenc=
e-based DF election.


 <=
/span>


The draft says tha=
t if the administrative preference of the “recovering” PE is n=
either higher than that of the “highest PE” nor lower than tha=
t of “lowest PE”, the “recovering” PE shall advert=
ise its EVPN
 Type 4 with its administrative preference and DP set to 1.


To me this means t=
hat if all the PEs have been configured with the same preference and ̶=
0;don’t preempt me”, the recovering PE would preempt the curre=
nt DF if its PE-IP address happens to be lower than that
 of the current DF.


 <=
/span>


This situation cou=
ld be easily avoided if the checks would be for “higher or equalR=
21; for the “highest PE” and “lower or equal” for =
the “lowest PE” and not as in the draft.
=


 <=
/span>


What, if anything,=
 did I miss?


 <=
/span>




Regards,


Sasha


 <=
/span>


Office: +972-39266=
302


Cell:  &=
nbsp;   +972-549266302


Email:  =
 Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com




 <=
/span>






From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) &=
lt;jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>


Sent: Sunday, February 6, 2022 1:41 PM

To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com>; dra=
ft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df.all@ietf.org

Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Queries on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df






 


Hi Sasha,


 


Sorry for the delay, this email fell through the cracks..


 


Please see in-line.


 


Thanks for the feedback.


Jorge


 





From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com><=
br>
Date: Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:12 PM

To: dr=
aft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df.all@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df.all@ietf.o=
rg>

Cc: bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Queries on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df<=
/p>



Hi,


I have a few questions with regard

to draft-ietf-bess-evpn-pref-df:



1. =
;     
The first statement in Section 4.4 of the draft says that &=
nbsp;“a capability to NOT preempt the existing DF for a given Ethern=
et Tag is required and therefore added to the DF Election
 extended community”. This statement looks problematic to me because=
:



a. =
;     
Section 2.2 of RFC 8584 says
 that “A PE SHOULD attach the DF Election Extended Community to any =
advertised ES route”



b. =
;     
To the best of my understanding, the ES route in the quoted=
 statement means an EVPN Ethernet Segment (Type 4) route defined in

Section-7.4 of RFC 7432



c. =
;     
The NLRI of this route does not contain information about a=
ny Ethernet Tag and, to the best of my understanding, just  a single =
copy of this route per MH ES to which a given
 PE is attached is advertised by the PE



d. =
;     
My conclusion is that non-preemption of the existing DF can=
 be only advertised per ES/virtual ES and can only be applied to all EVI a=
nd all Ethernet tags that are attached
 to this MH ES.  Is this understanding correct? 


 &=
nbsp;           &nb=
sp;            =
;            &=
nbsp;           &nb=
sp;            =
;            &=
nbsp;          
i. &nbs=
p;    If not, can you please clarify what I =
am missing



 &=
nbsp;           &nb=
sp;            =
;            &=
nbsp;           &nb=
sp;            =
;            &=
nbsp;        
ii. &nb=
sp;    If yes, may I suggest that you update=
 the draft accordingly?


[jorge] yes, that’s a fair point. We changed the text to:


“a capability to NOT preempt the existing DF (for all the Etherne=
t Tags in the ES) is required and therefore added to the DF Election exten=
ded community.”


 


 



2. =
;     
The description of the non-preemptive DF Election procedure=
 in item#5 of Section 4.4. of the draft says that, upon recovery of a prev=
iously failed multi-homed ES, the supporting
 PE shall start a bott timer (or a hold timer) that is “applied betw=
een the INIT and the DF_WAIT states in the DF Election Finite State Machin=
e described in [RFC8584]”. From my POV:



a. =
;     
This description is equivalent to introduction of a  n=
ew state in the DF Election Finite State Machine defined in Section 2.2 of=
 RFC 8584


[jorge] I think the use of a boot timer is a normal practice in any mul=
tihoming scenario (not only EVPN based), so that the PE starts the multi-h=
oming procedures only when the infrastructure
 protocols are up and running. As an example, this boot timer would preven=
t a PE from running DF Election and take over too soon, if the underlay IG=
P has not converged yet or BGP is still converging. As such, IMO it is app=
licable to any DF Election and not
 only this document. Maybe a topic for rfc-7432bis?


 



b. =
;     
As a consequence, a formal definition of the modified DF El=
ection Finite State Machine should be added to the draft, preferably prese=
rving the style of RFC 8584. The following
 points require explicit clarification IMHO:



 &=
nbsp;           &nb=
sp;            =
;            &=
nbsp;           &nb=
sp;            =
;            &=
nbsp;          
i. &nbs=
p;    In which cases the new DF Election FSM=
 should be used (e.g., I assume that it should not be used if non-preempti=
ve
 DF election mode is not configured). One scenario that deserves special a=
ttention is the scenario in which Non-Preemptive DF Election mode has been=
 advertised by some, but not all PEs attached to the specific MH ES



 &=
nbsp;           &nb=
sp;            =
;            &=
nbsp;           &nb=
sp;            =
;            &=
nbsp;        
ii. &nb=
sp;    Whether the ES route for the recovere=
d ES representative eventually should be re-advertised=20with the configur=
ed preference
 and configured DF mode, and, if yes, when should this happen.<=
/span>


[jorge] as discussed above, if the boot timer is applicable to all DF A=
lgs (I think it is), that modification may belong to rfc-7432bis instead. =
This document should focus on the DF Election
 Algorithm details only. Also, about the mix of non-revertive and revertiv=
e PEs in the same ES, the text strongly recommends not to do that.


 


 


Your timely feedback will be highly appreciated.


 


Regards, and lots of thanks in advance,


Sasha


 


Office: +972-39266302


Cell:      +972-549266302


Email:  
Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn=
.com


 




Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information =
of Ribbon Communications Inc. and its Affiliates that is confidential and/=
or proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, dis=
closure, reliance or distribution by
 others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. I=
f you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately=
 and then delete all copies, including any attachments.<=
/p>




Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information =
of Ribbon Communications Inc. and its Affiliates that is confidential and/=
or proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, dis=
closure, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express =
permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, =
please notify the sender immediately and then delete all copies, including=
 any attachments.




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From: Alexander Vainshtein 
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Subject: [bess] Questions and comments regarding draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02
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Hi all,
I have some new questions regarding this draft.


  1.  The definition of the F flag in the Layer 2 Attributes Extended Comm=
unity in Section 7.11 of the draft  (added to the list of flags de=
fined in RFC 8214) says that, If this flag is set to 1, a Flow Label MUST =
be present when sending EVPN packets to this PE. If set to 0, a Flow Label=
 MUST NOT be present when sending EVPN packets to this PE.
     *   I am not sure whether the first MUST is a good idea because the r=
eceiving PE can always recognize presence or absence of the Flow Label in =
the label stack by:

                                                               i.      The=
 "application" label (advertised in the appropriate EVPN route) not being =
marked as Bottom of Stack

                                                             ii.      The =
label following it not being in the range of reserved (special purpose) la=
bels

     *   This is different from the situation with the C flag in the same =
extended Community, because presence or absence of the Control Word cannot=
 be recognized by the receiving PE
     *   The second MUST (that would indicate inability of the receiving P=
E to handle received Flow Labels) is, of course, OK
     *   May I suggest that you replace the first MUST in the definition w=
ith "MAY" (leaving the decision to include or not to include the Flow Labe=
l to the ingress PE)?
     *   I also wonder if you plan to request an early allocation of the F=
 Flag in the appropriate IANA registry
  1.  The draft includes references to the DF Election procedure defined i=
n RFC 8584. However, it see=
ms to ignore AC-influenced DF Election capability  defined in Section 4 of=
 this document, and its implications. In particular:
     *   Without AC-influenced DF Election procedure:

         =20                                                     i.      A=
ttachment of an EVI to a Single-Active Multi-Homing ES has to be instantia=
ted in every PE to which this ES is attached:

                                                             ii.      This=
 justifies the requirement in Section 6.3 of RFC 7432 to use the numerical=
ly lowest VLAN value in the default DF Election algorithm for EVI that imp=
lement VLAN Bundle and VLAN-aware Bundle service interface

     *   With AC-influenced DF Election procedure:

                                                               i.      It =
is possible for a specific Bridge Table in an EVI that implements VLAN-awa=
re Bundle service interface to be instantiated in some, but not all PEs at=
tached to a given Single-Active Multi-Homing ES

                                                             ii.      As a=
 consequence, Section 4.1 of RFC 8584 has redefined the DF Election scheme=
 for the EVI that implements VLAN-aware bundle service interface, so that =
DF is elected per Bridge Table and uses just the VLAN attaching a specific=
 Bridge Table to the MH ES in question

     *   May I suggest that you incorporate the AC-influenced DF Election =
scheme (with its implications for DF election for the EVI  that implement =
VLAN-aware Bundle Service interface in the draft?
     *   Additionally, may I suggest that Section 6.3 of the draft would c=
larify that, for a Bridge Table of an EVI that is attached to a MH ES the =
per EVI Ethernet A-D route would be also advertised with the "aliasing" la=
bel for this Bridge Table and an appropriate Ethermet Tag ID? The current =
text (inherited from RFC 7432) only mentions Label1 field in the EVPN MAC/=
IP routes advertised for each Bridge Table
     *   Last but not least, the text in Section 8.5 of the draft differs =
from the original text in  Section 8.5 of RFC 7432 when it comes to DF ele=
ction for EVI that implement VLAN Bundle and VLAN-aware Bundle service int=
erface (the differences are highlighted):

                                             =20                 i.      T=
he latter document says "In the case of VLAN-(aware) bundle service" meani=
ng that the text applies to both VLA Bundle and VLAN-aware Bundle service =
interface

                                                             ii.      The =
former (i.e. the draft) says "In the case of VLAN-aware bundle service" i.=
e. EVI that implement VLAN Bundle service interface from the definition ar=
e excluded

                                                           iii.      This =
looks as a simple type and should be trivial to fix.

Hopefully these notes will be useful. Your feedback will be highly appreci=
ated.

Regards, and lots of thanks in advance,
Sasha

Office: +972-39266302
Cell:      +972-549266302
Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com


Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information =
of Ribbon Communications Inc. and its Affiliates that is confidential and/=
or proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, dis=
closure, reliance or distribution by=20others or forwarding without expres=
s permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient=
, please notify the sender immediately and then delete all copies, includi=
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











 


Hi all,


I have some new questions regarding this draft.


 


    

  1. The definition of the F flag in the Layer 2 Attributes Extended Com=
munity in

Section 7.11 of the draft  (added to the list of flags defined in=
 RFC 8214) says that, If this flag is set to 1, a Flow Label MUST be prese=
nt when sending EVPN packets to this PE. If set to 0, a Flow Label MUST NO=
T be present when sending EVPN packets to
 this PE. 
      2. 

    1. I am not sure whether the first MUST is a good idea because the rec=
eiving PE can always recognize presence or absence of the Flow Label in th=
e label stack by:
    




      &nbs=
p;            =
            &n=
bsp;           &nbs=
p;            =
      
i. &nbs=
p;    The =
“application” label (advertised in the appropriate EVPN route)=
 not being marked as Bottom of Stack



      &nbs=
p;            =
            &n=
bsp;           &nbs=
p;            =
    
ii. &nb=
sp;    The=
 label following it not being in the range of reserved (special purpose) l=
abels


    

      

    1. This is different from the situation with the C flag in the same ex=
tended Community, because presence or absence of the Control Word cannot b=
e recognized by the receiving PE
    2. The second MUST (th=
at would indicate inability of the receiving PE to handle received Flow La=
bels) is, of course, OK
    3. May I suggest that you repla=
ce the first MUST in the definition with “MAY” (leaving the de=
cision to include or not to include the Flow Label to the ingress PE)?
    4. I also wonder if you plan to request an early allocatio=
n of the F Flag in the

appropriate IANA registry
    

  1. The draft includes references to the DF Election procedure defined =
in
RFC 8584. Ho=
wever, it seems to ignore AC-influenced DF Election capability  defin=
ed in Section 4 of this document, and its implications. In particular:
      2. 

    1. Without AC-influenced DF Election procedure:
    




      &nbs=
p;            =
            &n=
bsp;           &nbs=
p;            =
      
i. &nbs=
p;    Atta=
chment of an EVI to a Single-Active Multi-Homing ES has to be instantiated=
 in every PE to which this ES is attached:



      &nbs=
p;            =
            &n=
bsp;           &nbs=
p;            =
    
ii. &nb=
sp;    Thi=
s justifies the requirement in Section 6.3 of RFC 7432 to use the numerica=
lly lowest VLAN value in the default DF Election algorithm for EVI that im=
plement
 VLAN Bundle and VLAN-aware Bundle service interface


    

      

    1. With AC-influenced DF Election procedure:
    




      &nbs=
p;            =
            &n=
bsp;           &nbs=
p;            =
      
i. &nbs=
p;    It i=
s possible for a specific Bridge Table in an EVI that implements VLAN-awar=
e Bundle service interface to be instantiated in some, but not all PEs att=
ached
 to a given Single-Active Multi-Homing ES



      &nbs=
p;            =
            &n=
bsp;           &nbs=
p;            =
    
ii. &nb=
sp;    As =
a consequence, Section 4.1 of RFC 8584 has redefined the DF Election schem=
e for the EVI that implements VLAN-aware bundle service interface, so that=

 DF is elected per Bridge Table and uses just the VLAN attaching a specifi=
c Bridge Table to the MH ES in question


    

      

    1. May I suggest that you incorporate the AC-influenced DF Election sc=
heme (with its implications for DF election for the EVI  that impleme=
nt VLAN-aware Bundle Service interface in the
 draft?
    2. Additionally, may I suggest that Section 6.3=
 of the draft would clarify that, for a Bridge Table of an EVI that is att=
ached to a MH ES the per EVI Ethernet A-D route would be also
 advertised with the “aliasing” label for this Bridge Table an=
d an appropriate Ethermet Tag ID? The current text (inherited from RFC 743=
2) only mentions Label1 field in the EVPN MAC/IP routes advertised for eac=
h Bridge Table
    3. Last but not least, the text in Secti=
on 8.5 of the draft differs from the original text in  Section 8.5 of=
 RFC 7432 when it comes to DF election for EVI that implement VLAN Bundle
 and VLAN-aware Bundle service interface (the differences are highlighted)=
:
    




      &nbs=
p;            =
            &n=
bsp;           &nbs=
p;            =
      
i. &nbs=
p;    The =
latter document says “In the case of
VLAN-(aware)=
 bundle service” meaning that the text applies to both VLA Bu=
ndle and VLAN-aware Bundle service interface



      &nbs=
p;            =
            &n=
bsp;           &nbs=
p;            =
    
ii. &nb=
sp;    The=
 former (i.e. the draft) says “In the case of
VLAN-aware b=
undle service” i.e. EVI that implement VLAN Bundle service in=
terface from the definition are excluded



      &nbs=
p;            =
            &n=
bsp;           &nbs=
p;            =
  
iii. &n=
bsp;    Th=
is looks as a simple type and should be trivial to fix.


 


Hopefully these notes will be useful. Your feedback=
 will be highly appreciated.


 


Regards, and lots of thanks in advance,<=
/p>

Sasha


 


Office: +972-39266302


Cell:      +972-549266302<=
o:p>


Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com


 





Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information =
of Ribbon Communications Inc. and its Affiliates that is confidential and/=
or proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, dis=
closure, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express =
permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, =
please notify the sender immediately and then delete all copies, including=
 any attachments.




--_000_PH0PR03MB6300E33228CF6EF832CD4A22F63B9PH0PR03MB6300namp_--


From nobody Tue Feb 22 17:32:55 2022
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From: Martin Duke via Datatracker 
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Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org, bess-chairs@ietf.org, bess@ietf.org, matthew.bocci@nokia.com, matthew.bocci@nokia.com
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Subject: [bess] Martin Duke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss

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email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(3.2.1)
"BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret,
   on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, the part
   of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label values
   for MPLS-based services.  Implementations supporting this
   specification MUST provide a mechanism to control the advertisement
   of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-service
   basis.  The details of deployment designs and implementation options
   are outside the scope of this document."

The idea that BGP hosts are going to be made non-interoperable because you're
re-purposing the MPLS label, and so hosts are just going to have to remember
who it's OK to exchange this TLV with, sounds unsatisfactory to me. Is there no
way to negotiate this? Perhaps the solution John Scudder proposes in his second
DISCUSS would solve this problem too: just have a new type for these overloaded
MPLS labels.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This document was very difficult to follow without a thorough grounding in the
references, but I managed to have some comments anyway:

- I support John Scudder's second DISCUSS.

- Please expand VRF, SLA, RIB, NLRI, and all other acronyms on first use.

(3.2.1) "      The Transposition Offset MUST be less than LBL+LNL+FL+AL

      The sum of Transposition Offset and Transposition Length MUST be
      less than LBL+LNL+FL+AL"

The second condition makes the first redundant for all Transposition Length >=
0! It makes me think there's a typo.

(5) and (6) "The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS of the egress
   PE"

SHOULD? Under what circumstances would it be OK for it not to be routable? [I
see Alvaro also commented on this, but I'd like to call out that Sec 6 does the
same thing]




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From: "Dikshit, Saumya" 
To: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" , "bess@ietf.org" 
CC: "Joshi, Vinayak" 
Thread-Topic: Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is only remote )
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is only remote )
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--_000_SJ0PR84MB19921EF56C4661BDA4779C1B943C9SJ0PR84MB1992NAMP_
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Hi Mankamana,

Can you please help with the Link/url to post the slide deck.

Thanks
Saumya.

________________________________
From: BESS  on behalf of Dikshit, Saumya 
Sent: Saturday, 19 February 2022, 13:39
To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis); bess@ietf.org
Cc: Joshi, Vinayak
Subject: Re: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is only =
remote )

Hi Mankamana,

Requesting 10 minutes slots on behalf of Vinayak and myself for following t=
wo drafts:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saum-bess-dampening-backoff/

Regards,
Saumya.

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mankamana Mishra (ma=
nkamis)
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 8:52 PM
To: bess@ietf.org
Subject: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is only remo=
te )

All,
Please send me slot request for IETF 113. Please note BESS session would be=
 only remote since none of the chairs are able to travel in person this tim=
e.


Mankamana


--_000_SJ0PR84MB19921EF56C4661BDA4779C1B943C9SJ0PR84MB1992NAMP_
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Hi Mankamana,









Can you please help with the Link/url to post the slide deck.<=
/div>








Thanks



Saumya.









From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf=
.org> on behalf of Dikshit, Saumya <saumya.dikshit@hpe.com>

Sent: Saturday, 19 February 2022, 13:39

To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis); bess@ietf.org

Cc: Joshi, Vinayak

Subject: Re: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 1=
13 (BESS is only remote )










Hi Mankamana,



 



Requesting 10 minutes slots=
 on behalf of Vinayak and myself for following two drafts:



 



https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-saumvinayak-bess-all-df-bum/



https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-saum-bess-dampening-backoff/



 



Regards,



Saumya.



 







From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)

Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 8:52 PM

To: bess@ietf.org

Subject: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is on=
ly remote )







 



All, 



Please send me slot request for IETF 113. =
Please note BESS session would be only remote since none of the chairs are =
able to travel in person this time.




 



 



Mankamana 












--_000_SJ0PR84MB19921EF56C4661BDA4779C1B943C9SJ0PR84MB1992NAMP_--


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Arie Vayner 
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 13:53:58 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" 
Cc: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , Ajay Kini ,  Akshay Gattani , "bess@ietf.org" ,  "Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig)" ,  "draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000678f0405d8b68143"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].
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Pinging the thread as it's been quiet since Dec '21.

Tnx
Arie

On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 1:10 PM Satya Mohanty (satyamoh) 
wrote:

> Hi Matthew,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> We will republish this draft as draft-ietf-bess-ebgp-dmz-00 shortly.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> --Satya
>
>
>
> *From: *BESS  on behalf of Bocci, Matthew (Nokia -
> GB) 
> *Date: *Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 5:36 AM
> *To: *Ajay Kini 
> *Cc: *Akshay Gattani , bess@ietf.org ,
> Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) ,
> draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org  >
> *Subject: *Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for
> draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].
>
> Thanks Ajay
>
>
>
> There is consensus to adopt this draft as a BESS WG draft.
>
>
>
> Authors: Please republish the draft as draft-ietf-bess-ebgp-dmz-00.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
>
> Matthew
>
>
>
> *From: *Ajay Kini 
> *Date: *Thursday, 9 December 2021 at 13:21
> *To: *Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) 
> *Cc: *Akshay Gattani , Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) <
> lkrattig@cisco.com>, bess@ietf.org ,
> draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org  >
> *Subject: *Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for
> draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].
>
> Hi Matthew,
>
>
>
> I am not aware of any relevant undisclosed IPRs that apply to this draft.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Ajay
>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 4:55 AM Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <
> matthew.bocci@nokia.com> wrote:
>
> Ashkay,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
>
>
> Strictly, I need a response from each individual author, otherwise I will
> have to ask the WG if they are happy to proceed.
>
>
>
> Ajay, please can you confirm whether or not you are aware of any
> undisclosed IPR?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Matthew
>
>
>
> *From: *Akshay Gattani 
> *Date: *Friday, 3 December 2021 at 08:10
> *To: *Ajay Kini 
> *Cc: *Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) , Bocci, Matthew
> (Nokia - GB) , bess@ietf.org ,
> draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org  >
> *Subject: *Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for
> draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].
>
> To our knowledge, the authors from Arista are not aware of any relevant
> undisclosed IPRs that apply to this draft document.
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 3:04 AM Ajay Kini  wrote:
>
> I support adoption of this draft as a co-author.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 2:10 PM Akshay Gattani  wrote:
>
> I fully support adoption of this draft as a co-author.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 8:27 PM Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) <
> lkrattig@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Good Day,
>
> I fully support the adoption of this draft
>
> Kind Regards
>
> -Lukas
>
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2021, at 5:41 AM, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <
> matthew.bocci@nokia.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> This email begins a two-week WG adoption poll for
> draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].
>
>
>
> Please review the draft and post any comments to the BESS working group
> list.
>
>
>
> We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to
> this document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with
> IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>
>
>
> If you are listed as an author or a contributor of this document, please
> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any
> relevant undisclosed IPR, copying the BESS mailing list. The document will
> not  progress without answers from all of the authors and contributors.
>
>
>
> Currently, there are no IPR disclosures against this document.
>
>
>
> If you are not listed as an author or a contributor, then please
> explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been
> disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>
>
>
> This poll for adoption closes on September 21st 2021.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matthew and Stephane
>
>
>
>
>
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03/
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
>
>
>

--000000000000678f0405d8b68143
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Pinging the thread as it's been quiet=C2=A0since Dec &=
#39;21.

Tnx
Arie

On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 1=
:10 PM Satya Mohanty (satyamoh) <s=
atyamoh@cisco.com> wrote:











Hi Matthew,=



=C2=A0<=
/span>


Thanks for your comme=
nts. 



We will republish thi=
s draft as
draft-ietf-bess-ebgp-d=
mz-00 shortly.


=C2=A0


Best R=
egards,


--Saty=
a


=C2=A0<=
/span>




From:
BESS &=
lt;bess-bounces@=
ietf.org> on behalf of Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com=
>

Date: Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 5:36 AM

To: Ajay Kini <ajkini@arista.com>

Cc: Akshay Gattani <akshay@arista.com>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) <lkrattig@cisco.com>=
, draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org <draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ie=
tf.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-=
bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].




Thanks=
 Ajay


=C2=A0=



There =
is consensus to adopt this draft as a BESS WG draft.



=C2=A0=



Author=
s: Please republish the draft as draft-ietf-bess-ebgp-dmz-00.


=C2=A0=



Best r=
egards


=C2=A0=



Matthe=
w


=C2=A0=





From:
Ajay K=
ini <ajkini@arist=
a.com>

Date: Thursday, 9 December 2021 at 13:21

To: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>

Cc: Akshay Gattani <akshay@arista.com>, Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) <lkrattig@cisco.com&g=
t;, bess@ietf.org &l=
t;bess@ietf.org>,=
 =
draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org <draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@iet=
f.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-=
bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].








Hi Mat=
thew,=C2=A0






=C2=A0=







I am n=
ot aware of any relevant undisclosed IPRs that apply to this draft.<=
span lang=3D"EN-GB">






=C2=A0=







Thanks=







Ajay






On Thu=
, Dec 9, 2021, 4:55 AM Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com> wr=
ote:










Ashkay=
,


=C2=A0=



Thank =
you for your response.


=C2=A0=



Strict=
ly, I need a response from each individual author, otherwise I will have to=
 ask the WG if they are happy to proceed.



=C2=A0=



Ajay, =
please can you confirm whether or not you are aware of any undisclosed IPR?=



=C2=A0=



Thanks=



=C2=A0=



Matthe=
w


=C2=A0=





From:
Akshay=
 Gattani <akshay@=
arista.com>

Date: Friday, 3 December 2021 at 08:10

To: Ajay Kini <ajkini@arista.com>

Cc: Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) <lkrattig@cisco.com>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - =
GB) <matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com>,
bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>,
d=
raft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org <draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf=
.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-=
bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].








To our=
 knowledge, the authors from Arista are not aware of any relevant undisclos=
ed IPRs that apply to this draft document.






=C2=A0=







Thank =
you




=C2=A0=







On Wed=
, Sep 22, 2021 at 3:04 AM Ajay Kini <ajkini@arista.com> wrote:








I supp=
ort adoption of this draft as a co-author.




=C2=A0=







On Tue=
, Sep 21, 2021 at 2:10 PM Akshay Gattani <akshay@arista.com> wrote:










I full=
y support adoption of this draft as a co-author.




=C2=A0=







On Mon=
, Sep 20, 2021 at 8:27 PM Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) <lkrattig@cisco.com>
 wrote:








Good D=
ay,





I full=
y support the adoption of this draft<=
/u>






Kind R=
egards






-Lukas=





=C2=A0






On Sep=
 7, 2021, at 5:41 AM, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
 wrote:




=C2=A0=









Hello,






=C2=A0






This email begins a t=
wo-week WG=C2=A0adoption=C2=A0poll=C2=A0for=C2=A0draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03=C2=A0[1].






=C2=A0






Please review the dra=
ft and post any comments to the BESS working group list.






=C2=A0






We are also=C2=A0poll=
ing for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to this document, to =
ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF
 IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).






=C2=A0






If you are listed as =
an author or a contributor of this document, please respond to this email a=
nd indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant
 undisclosed IPR, copying the BESS mailing list. The document will not =C2=
=A0progress without answers from all of the authors and contributors.






=C2=A0






Currently, there are =
no IPR disclosures against this document.






=C2=A0






If you are not listed=
 as an author or a contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you =
are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed
 in conformance with IETF rules.<=
/span>






=C2=A0






This=C2=A0poll=C2=A0f=
or=C2=A0adoption=C2=A0closes on September 21st=C2=A02021.=







=C2=A0






Regards,






Matthew and Stephane<=
/span>






=C2=A0=







=C2=A0=








=C2=A0=







=C2=A0=







_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/bess=









=C2=A0=










































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From: John Scudder 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , BESS , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
Thread-Topic: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 01:04:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bess] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: John Scudder 
To: "liu.yao71@zte.com.cn" 
CC: Ron Bonica , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , BESS , "draft-lz-bess-srv6-service-capability@ietf.org" , "etmetz@gmail.com" 
Thread-Topic: [bess] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: Robert Raszuk 
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 11:12:26 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: John Scudder 
Cc: Ketan Talaulikar , The IESG ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi John,

You have highlighted below a very important point. It was discussed among
co-authors, but perhaps not sufficiently during the BESS process as the
issue is really not a BESS WG problem.

In BGP protocol any new service deployment using existing AFI/SAFI is not
easy. Especially when you are modifying content of MP_REACH or MP_UNREACH
NLRI attributes. Main reason being is that using capabilities only goes one
hop. In full mesh it all works perfect, but the moment you put RR in
between BGP speakers things are getting ugly as capabilities are not
traversing BGP nodes. /* Even in full mesh mixing transports for the same
service is a serious challenge for routers when say multihomes sites are
advertised from different PEs with different transport options */.

Imagine RR signals SRv6 Service Capability to the PE. Then this PE happily
sends a new format of the UPDATE messages. Well as today we also do not
have a notion of conditional capabilities (only send when received from
all) so if some of the RR peers do not support it you end up in partial
service. One can argue that in this case the only deterministic model is to
push the configuration from the management station and control partial
deployment of the new service from mgmt layer.

The natural alternative would be to never modify NLRI format once shipped
by RFC. When needed issue a new SAFI. Yes that is an option (and has always
been) but it also comes with its own set of issues. New SAFI is really
great to define for new service/feature etc ... Here however in the context
of this discussion we are changing transport for existing service.  And
just like it was the case with MPLS over UDP or  tunnel attribute etc ...
using a new SAFI would be very hard to deploy as there would need to be
well defined behaviour of BGP speakers receiving duplicate information for
the same VPN prefixes or receiving at one time only from single SAFI then a
bit later from the other one .. Of course one solution is to permit only
one SAFI for a given service at any given time, but that seems way too
restrictive too.

So to summarize while I am personally a huge proponent of new SAFI and new
capabilities to be defines for new service here I do have  some
reservations. It seems to me that deployment of new transport for VPN
service should be either network management driven or enabled when all
participating PEs support it. Enabling it automagically with one hop
capabilities seems to me like not a good thing as the data being sent in
the UPDATES is not optional and dropping it means dropping actual routes.

So at the current time the subject draft took a management approach.

Many thx,
Robert.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 2:04 AM John Scudder  wrote:

> Further to this point:
>
> > On Feb 18, 2022, at 3:32 PM, John Scudder  wrote:
> >
> >> On Feb 17, 2022, at 3:19 AM, Ketan Talaulikar 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> 2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looked into
> is, the
> >>> document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the NLRI to
> carry the
> >>> Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively split
> across the
> >>> NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential error modes
> if the
> >>> Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the NLRI is
> retained?
> >>>
> >>> (An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be to
> define a new
> >>> NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively
> repurposing fields
> >>> within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Such an
> NLRI type
> >>> would, for example, presumably state in its specification that if it
> was
> >>> received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that would
> constitute an
> >>> error.)
> >>>
> >> KT> This document follows the approach similar as taken for extending
> MPLS EVPN RFC7432 by RFC8365.
> >
> > I take it you=E2=80=99re referring to RFC 8365 =C2=A75.1.3 which talks =
about using
> the MPLS Label field (or MPLS1 Label field) to carry the VNI in the
> presence of a BGP Encapsulation Extended Community? Yes, that seems like =
a
> pretty close analogue. And given this particular trick is only with
> VPN-type address families one can also argue that there=E2=80=99s not a r=
isk of
> affected routes leaking into the big-I Internet, which is the typical
> associated concern.
>
> In a separate reply, the authors of
> draft-lz-bess-srv6-service-capability-02 pointed out that it provides a
> critique of bess-srv6-services which is similar to this discuss point. (T=
he
> authors dropped the IESG from the cc, so I=E2=80=99m following up here in=
stead of
> to their original note.)
>
> On first reading, the critique in draft-lz-bess-srv6-service-capability-0=
2
> seems well argued and responsive to my question above about potential err=
or
> modes. In section 3 of their draft, the authors provide a worked scenario
> where a VPN route carrying a SRv6 service SID using the Transposition
> scheme, if received by an MPLS-only PE, could result in misdelivered
> traffic. At minimum, that seems worth surfacing in the Security
> Considerations section, since historically we=E2=80=99ve considered misde=
livered
> VPN traffic to be a Bad Thing that could expose confidential information.
>
> The authors do acknowledge that bess-srv6-services proposes a mitigation:
>
>    To avoid these problems, [I-D.ietf-bess-srv6-services] specifies that
>    implementations SHOULD provide a mechanism to control advertisement
>    of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per neighbor and per service
>    basis.
>
> but they go on to argue that this mitigation isn=E2=80=99t fit for purpos=
e:
>
>    The above method may be feasible in small-scale networks, but are not
>    applicable to large-scale networks.
>
>    [etc]
>
> It=E2=80=99s not my preference to get into the minutiae of this argument =
as part
> of this discuss. However, I=E2=80=99d like to ask: was this consideration=
 something
> the WG discussed? I looked for discussion of
> draft-lz-bess-srv6-service-capability in the archives and didn=E2=80=99t =
find much =E2=80=94
>
> - When an earlier version was posted to the list it resulted only in
> discussion between the original author, Liu Yao, and Eduard Metz, who
> became co-author, but there wasn=E2=80=99t any discussion I saw of the ac=
tual issue
> that the draft identified, but rather refinement of the mitigation it
> proposes (which I don=E2=80=99t want to discuss in this note).
> - There was an agenda slot request for the draft at IETF-111. It was on
> the agenda in the =E2=80=9Cif time allows=E2=80=9D section. I assume time=
 did NOT allow
> because I don=E2=80=99t see mention of it in the minutes. (I did find the=
 slides,
> slides 3 and 4 summarize the critique,
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/slides-111-bess-sessa-=
srv6-service-capability-00
> ).
>
> But of course, the issue raised might have been discussed by the WG in a
> different thread, that doesn=E2=80=99t match a search for
> draft-lz-bess-srv6-service-capability. If so, I=E2=80=99d appreciate a po=
inter to
> it.
>
> If there wasn=E2=80=99t any discussion in the WG of the authors=E2=80=99 =
critique, I think
> it deserves to be discussed a bit as part of this thread. In particular,
> does the =E2=80=9Cthis is the same as the trick EVPN does in RFC 8365=E2=
=80=9D reply apply
> equally? Probably it does, although that might boil down to =E2=80=9Cgosh=
, we
> should have caught this when publishing 8365, shouldn=E2=80=99t we?=E2=80=
=9D
>
> Even if the outcome of the discussion is that the limitation was discusse=
d
> by the WG/isn=E2=80=99t a big deal because reasons/maybe it=E2=80=99s a b=
ig deal but we=E2=80=99ll
> fix it in a followup=E2=80=A6 as I mentioned earlier, covering it in the =
Security
> Considerations seems worthwhile.
>
> Thanks,
>
> =E2=80=94John

--0000000000003bc6eb05d8c0d186
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi John,

You have highlighted below a v=
ery important point. It was discussed among co-authors, but perhaps not suf=
ficiently during the BESS process as the issue is really not a BESS WG prob=
lem.=C2=A0

In BGP protocol any new service deploym=
ent using existing AFI/SAFI is not easy. Especially when you are modifying =
content of MP_REACH or MP_UNREACH NLRI attributes. Main reason being is tha=
t using capabilities only goes one hop. In full mesh it all works perfect, =
but the moment you put RR in between BGP speakers things are getting ugly a=
s capabilities are not traversing BGP nodes. /* Even in full mesh mixing tr=
ansports for the same service is a serious challenge=C2=A0for routers when =
say multihomes=C2=A0sites are advertised from different PEs with different =
transport options */.

Imagine RR signals SRv6 Serv=
ice Capability to the PE. Then this PE happily sends a new format of the UP=
DATE messages. Well as today we also do not have a notion of conditional ca=
pabilities=C2=A0(only send when received from all) so if some of the RR pee=
rs do not support it you end up in partial service. One can argue that in t=
his case the only deterministic model is to push the configuration from the=
 management station and control partial deployment of the new service from =
mgmt layer.=C2=A0

The natural alternative would be=
 to never modify NLRI format once shipped by RFC. When needed issue a new S=
AFI. Yes that is an option (and has always been) but it also comes with its=
 own set of issues. New SAFI is really great to define=C2=A0for new service=
/feature etc ... Here however in the context of this discussion we are chan=
ging transport for existing service.=C2=A0 And just like it was the case wi=
th MPLS over UDP or=C2=A0 tunnel attribute etc ... using a new SAFI would b=
e very hard to deploy as there would need to be well defined behaviour of B=
GP speakers receiving duplicate information for the same VPN prefixes or re=
ceiving at one time only from single SAFI then a bit later from the other o=
ne .. Of course one solution is to permit only one SAFI for a given service=
 at any given time, but that seems way too restrictive too.=C2=A0

So to summarize while I am personally=C2=A0a huge proponent=
 of new SAFI and new capabilities to be defines for new service here I do h=
ave=C2=A0 some reservations. It seems to me that deployment of new transpor=
t for VPN service should be either network management driven or enabled whe=
n all participating PEs support it. Enabling it automagically with one hop =
capabilities seems to me like not a good thing as the data being sent in th=
e UPDATES is not optional and dropping it means dropping actual routes.=C2=
=A0

So at the current time the subject draft took =
a management approach.=C2=A0

Many thx,
R=
obert.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 2:04 AM John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> wrote:
Further to this point:



> On Feb 18, 2022, at 3:32 PM, John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> wrote:

> 

>> On Feb 17, 2022, at 3:19 AM, Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.com> wr=
ote:

>> 

>>> 2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looke=
d into is, the

>>> document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the N=
LRI to carry the

>>> Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively sp=
lit across the

>>> NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential erro=
r modes if the

>>> Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the =
NLRI is retained?

>>> 

>>> (An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be=
 to define a new

>>> NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively re=
purposing fields

>>> within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Su=
ch an NLRI type

>>> would, for example, presumably state in its specification that=
 if it was

>>> received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that wo=
uld constitute an

>>> error.)

>>> 

>> KT> This document follows the approach similar as taken for ext=
ending MPLS EVPN RFC7432 by RFC8365.

> 

> I take it you=E2=80=99re referring to RFC 8365 =C2=A75.1.3 which talks=
 about using the MPLS Label field (or MPLS1 Label field) to carry the VNI i=
n the presence of a BGP Encapsulation Extended Community? Yes, that seems l=
ike a pretty close analogue. And given this particular trick is only with V=
PN-type address families one can also argue that there=E2=80=99s not a risk=
 of affected routes leaking into the big-I Internet, which is the typical a=
ssociated concern. 



In a separate reply, the authors of draft-lz-bess-srv6-service-capability-0=
2 pointed out that it provides a critique of bess-srv6-services which is si=
milar to this discuss point. (The authors dropped the IESG from the cc, so =
I=E2=80=99m following up here instead of to their original note.)



On first reading, the critique in draft-lz-bess-srv6-service-capability-02 =
seems well argued and responsive to my question above about potential error=
 modes. In section 3 of their draft, the authors provide a worked scenario =
where a VPN route carrying a SRv6 service SID using the Transposition schem=
e, if received by an MPLS-only PE, could result in misdelivered traffic. At=
 minimum, that seems worth surfacing in the Security Considerations section=
, since historically we=E2=80=99ve considered misdelivered VPN traffic to b=
e a Bad Thing that could expose confidential information.



The authors do acknowledge that bess-srv6-services proposes a mitigation:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0To avoid these problems, [I-D.ietf-bess-srv6-services] specifi=
es that

=C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations SHOULD provide a mechanism to control advertis=
ement

=C2=A0 =C2=A0of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per neighbor and per ser=
vice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0basis.



but they go on to argue that this mitigation isn=E2=80=99t fit for purpose:=




=C2=A0 =C2=A0The above method may be feasible in small-scale networks, but =
are not

=C2=A0 =C2=A0applicable to large-scale networks.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0[etc]



It=E2=80=99s not my preference to get into the minutiae of this argument as=
 part of this discuss. However, I=E2=80=99d like to ask: was this considera=
tion something the WG discussed? I looked for discussion of draft-lz-bess-s=
rv6-service-capability in the archives and didn=E2=80=99t find much =E2=80=
=94



- When an earlier version was posted to the list it resulted only in discus=
sion between the original author, Liu Yao, and Eduard Metz, who became co-a=
uthor, but there wasn=E2=80=99t any discussion I saw of the actual issue th=
at the draft identified, but rather refinement of the mitigation it propose=
s (which I don=E2=80=99t want to discuss in this note). 

- There was an agenda slot request for the draft at IETF-111. It was on the=
 agenda in the =E2=80=9Cif time allows=E2=80=9D section. I assume time did =
NOT allow because I don=E2=80=99t see mention of it in the minutes. (I did =
find the slides, slides 3 and 4 summarize the critique, https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/slides-111-bess-sessa-srv6-service-capabilit=
y-00).



But of course, the issue raised might have been discussed by the WG in a di=
fferent thread, that doesn=E2=80=99t match a search for draft-lz-bess-srv6-=
service-capability. If so, I=E2=80=99d appreciate a pointer to it.



If there wasn=E2=80=99t any discussion in the WG of the authors=E2=80=99 cr=
itique, I think it deserves to be discussed a bit as part of this thread. I=
n particular, does the =E2=80=9Cthis is the same as the trick EVPN does in =
RFC 8365=E2=80=9D reply apply equally? Probably it does, although that migh=
t boil down to =E2=80=9Cgosh, we should have caught this when publishing 83=
65, shouldn=E2=80=99t we?=E2=80=9D 



Even if the outcome of the discussion is that the limitation was discussed =
by the WG/isn=E2=80=99t a big deal because reasons/maybe it=E2=80=99s a big=
 deal but we=E2=80=99ll fix it in a followup=E2=80=A6 as I mentioned earlie=
r, covering it in the Security Considerations seems worthwhile.



Thanks,



=E2=80=94John


--0000000000003bc6eb05d8c0d186--


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From: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" 
To: Arie Vayner 
CC: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , Ajay Kini , Akshay Gattani , "bess@ietf.org" , "Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig)" , "draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].
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Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].
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--_000_BY5PR11MB430578A29859CAFB9EB39929D43D9BY5PR11MB4305namp_
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Sorry, I am delayed on this.

Few minutes back I resubmitted this draft as =93draft-ietf-bess-ebgp-dmz=94=
 to replace =93draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz=94 as instructed by Matthew belo=
w.
Now it shows submission is pending approval by group chairs.

Thanks,
Satya


From: Arie Vayner 
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 1:54 PM
To: Satya Mohanty (satyamoh) 
Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) , Ajay Kini , Akshay Gattani , bess@ietf.org , Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) , draft-mohanty-bess-=
ebgp-dmz@ietf.org 
Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-bess-eb=
gp-dmz-03 [1].
Pinging the thread as it's been quiet since Dec '21.

Tnx
Arie

On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 1:10 PM Satya Mohanty (satyamoh) > wrote:
Hi Matthew,

Thanks for your comments.
We will republish this draft as draft-ietf-bess-ebgp-dmz-00 shortly.

Best Regards,
--Satya

From: BESS > on behalf =
of Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) >
Date: Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 5:36 AM
To: Ajay Kini >
Cc: Akshay Gattani >, bess@ietf=
.org >, Lukas Kra=
ttiger (lkrattig) >, draft-mo=
hanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org <=
draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-bess-eb=
gp-dmz-03 [1].
Thanks Ajay

There is consensus to adopt this draft as a BESS WG draft.

Authors: Please republish the draft as draft-ietf-bess-ebgp-dmz-00.

Best regards

Matthew

From: Ajay Kini >
Date: Thursday, 9 December 2021 at 13:21
To: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) >
Cc: Akshay Gattani >, Lukas Kra=
ttiger (lkrattig) >, bess@iet=
f.org >, draft-mo=
hanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org <=
draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-bess-eb=
gp-dmz-03 [1].
Hi Matthew,

I am not aware of any relevant undisclosed IPRs that apply to this draft.

Thanks
Ajay
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 4:55 AM Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) > wrote:
Ashkay,

Thank you for your response.

Strictly, I need a response from each individual author, otherwise I will h=
ave to ask the WG if they are happy to proceed.

Ajay, please can you confirm whether or not you are aware of any undisclose=
d IPR?

Thanks

Matthew

From: Akshay Gattani >
Date: Friday, 3 December 2021 at 08:10
To: Ajay Kini >
Cc: Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) >, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) >, bess@ietf.org >, draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org >
Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-bess-eb=
gp-dmz-03 [1].
To our knowledge, the authors from Arista are not aware of any relevant und=
isclosed IPRs that apply to this draft document.

Thank you

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 3:04 AM Ajay Kini > wrote:
I support adoption of this draft as a co-author.

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 2:10 PM Akshay Gattani > wrote:
I fully support adoption of this draft as a co-author.

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 8:27 PM Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) > wrote:
Good Day,
I fully support the adoption of this draft
Kind Regards
-Lukas

On Sep 7, 2021, at 5:41 AM, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) > wrote:

Hello,

This email begins a two-week WG adoption poll for draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-d=
mz-03 [1].

Please review the draft and post any comments to the BESS working group lis=
t.

We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th=
is document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF =
IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

If you are listed as an author or a contributor of this document, please re=
spond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any releva=
nt undisclosed IPR, copying the BESS mailing list. The document will not  p=
rogress without answers from all of the authors and contributors.

Currently, there are no IPR disclosures against this document.

If you are not listed as an author or a contributor, then please explicitly=
 respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i=
n conformance with IETF rules.

This poll for adoption closes on September 21st 2021.

Regards,
Matthew and Stephane


[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03/


_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess


--_000_BY5PR11MB430578A29859CAFB9EB39929D43D9BY5PR11MB4305namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Sorry, I am delayed on this.


 


Few minutes back I resubmitted this draft as =93draft-ietf-bess-ebgp-dmz=94 to replace =93=
draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz=94
 as instructed by Matthew below. 


Now it =
shows submission is pending approval by group chairs.


&n=
bsp;


Thanks,=



Satya


 


 




From:
Arie Vayner <ava=
yner@google.com>

Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 1:54 PM

To: Satya Mohanty (satyamoh) <satyamoh@cisco.com>

Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, Aja=
y Kini <ajkini@arista.com>, Akshay Gattani <akshay@arista.com>,=
 bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) <lkratt=
ig@cisco.com>, draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org <draft-mohanty-be=
ss-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-=
bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].






Pinging the thread as it's been quiet since Dec=
 '21.




 






Tnx






Arie






 






On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 1:10 PM Satya Mohanty (satyam=
oh) <satyamoh@cisco.com> wr=
ote:










Hi Matthew,


 


Thanks for your comments.



We will republish this draft as
draft-ietf-bess-ebgp-dmz-00 shortly.=



 


Best Regards,


--Satya


 




From:
BESS=
 <bess-bounce=
s@ietf.org> on behalf of Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>

Date: Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 5:36 AM

To: Ajay Kini <ajkini@arista.com>

Cc: Akshay Gattani <akshay@arista.com>,
bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Luk=
as Krattiger (lkrattig) <lkrattig@cisco.com>,
d=
raft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org <draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf=
.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-=
bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].




Thanks Ajay


 


There is consensus to adopt this draft as a B=
ESS WG draft.



 


Authors: Please republish the draft as draft-=
ietf-bess-ebgp-dmz-00.


 


Best regards


 


Matthew


 




From:
Ajay=
 Kini <ajkini@ari=
sta.com>

Date: Thursday, 9 December 2021 at 13:21

To: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>

Cc: Akshay Gattani <akshay@arista.com>, Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) <lkrattig@cisco.com&g=
t;,
bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>,
d=
raft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org <draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf=
.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-=
bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].








Hi Matthew, 






 






I am not aware of any relevant undisclosed IP=
Rs that apply to this draft.






 






Thanks






Ajay






On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 4:55 AM Bocci, Matthew (=
Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com> wrote:










Ashkay,


 


Thank you for your response.


 


Strictly, I need a response from each individ=
ual author, otherwise I will have to ask the WG if they are happy to procee=
d.



 


Ajay, please can you confirm whether or not y=
ou are aware of any undisclosed IPR?


 


Thanks


 


Matthew


 




From:
Aksh=
ay Gattani <aksha=
y@arista.com>

Date: Friday, 3 December 2021 at 08:10

To: Ajay Kini <ajkini@arista.com>

Cc: Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) <lkrattig@cisco.com>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - =
GB) <matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com>,
bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>,
d=
raft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf.org <draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz@ietf=
.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll and IPR poll for draft-mohanty-=
bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].








To our knowledge, the authors from Arista are=
 not aware of any relevant undisclosed IPRs that apply to this draft docume=
nt.






 






Thank you




 






On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 3:04 AM Ajay Kini <=
;ajkini@arista.com> wrote:








I support adoption of this draft as a co-auth=
or.




 











I fully support adoption of this draft as a c=
o-author.




 






On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 8:27 PM Lukas Krattig=
er (lkrattig) <l=
krattig@cisco.com> wrote:








Good Day,





I fully support the adoption of this draft






Kind Regards






-Lukas




 






On Sep 7, 2021, at 5:41 AM, Bocci, Matthew (N=
okia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com> wrote:




 








Hello,






 






This email begins a two-week WG&n=
bsp;adoption poll for draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz-03 [1].






 






Please review the draft and post =
any comments to the BESS working group list.






 






We are also polling for know=
ledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to this document, to ensure that =
IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF
 IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).






 






If you are listed as an author or=
 a contributor of this document, please respond to this email and indicate =
whether or not you are aware of any relevant
 undisclosed IPR, copying the BESS mailing list. The document will not &nbs=
p;progress without answers from all of the authors and contributors.=







 






Currently, there are no IPR discl=
osures against this document.






 






If you are not listed as an autho=
r or a contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of=
 any IPR that has not yet been disclosed
 in conformance with IETF rules.






 






This poll for adop=
tion closes on September 21st 2021.<=
/p>





 






Regards,






Matthew and Stephane<=
/o:p>






 =







 =








 =







 






_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BES=
S@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess








 














































--_000_BY5PR11MB430578A29859CAFB9EB39929D43D9BY5PR11MB4305namp_--


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Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 18:59:56 -0800
From: Benjamin Kaduk 
To: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" 
Cc: John E Drake , The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
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On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 07:01:35AM +0000, Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) wrote:
> Thanks john for providing input. New version of draft accommodated all of these changes.

Thanks John, thanks Mankamana.

I have balloted No Objection on the -18.

-Ben


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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC Request for draft-ietf-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage-04
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Matthew and Stephane,

Can you please give a feedback on how to move forward?

Thank you
Linda

From: Linda Dunbar
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 10:46 AM
To: bess-chairs@ietf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: RE: WGLC Request for draft-ietf-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage-04

Matthew and Stephane,

Can you give some guidance on how to move the draft to WGLC? Is there anyth=
ing authors can do? It has been 3 months since we sent the WGLC request.

Thank you very much,
Linda Dunbar



From: Linda Dunbar
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2021 1:44 PM
To: bess-chairs@ietf.org
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: WGLC Request for draft-ietf-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage-04

Matthew and Stephane,

We think the draft-ietf-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage-04 is ready for WGLC.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage/

The document demonstrates how the BGP-based control plane is used for large=
-scale SDWAN overlay networks with little manual intervention.
It is very useful for the industry.

Thank you,

Linda Dunbar


--_000_CO1PR13MB4920EEDBB4D38F5FBA265C3A853E9CO1PR13MB4920namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Matthew and Stephane, 


 


Can you please give a feedback on how to move forwar=
d? 



 


Thank you


Linda


 






From: Linda Dunbar 

Sent: Friday, January 21, 2022 10:46 AM

To: bess-chairs@ietf.org

Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: RE: WGLC Request for draft-ietf-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage-04






 


Matthew and Stephane,


 


Can you give some guidance on how to move the draft =
to WGLC? Is there anything authors can do? It has been 3 months since we se=
nt the WGLC request.



 


Thank you very much, 


Linda Dunbar


 


 


 






From: Linda Dunbar 

Sent: Monday, October 18, 2021 1:44 PM

To: bess-chairs@ietf.org=


Cc: bess@ietf.org

Subject: WGLC Request for draft-ietf-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage-04






 


Matthew and Stephane, 


 


We think the draft-ietf-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage-04 is r=
eady for WGLC.



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-=
bgp-sdwan-usage/


 


The document demonstrates how the BGP-based control =
plane is used for large-scale SDWAN overlay networks with little manual int=
ervention.


It is very useful for the industry. 


 


Thank you, 


 


Linda Dunbar


 






--_000_CO1PR13MB4920EEDBB4D38F5FBA265C3A853E9CO1PR13MB4920namp_--


From nobody Fri Feb 25 17:42:07 2022
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Subject: [bess] bess - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 113
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Dear Mankamana Mishra,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    bess Session 1 (2:00 requested)
    Monday, 21 March 2022, Morning Session I 1000-1200
    Room Name: Grand Park Hall 2 size: 200
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/sessions/bess.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: BGP Enabled ServiceS
Area Name: Routing Area
Session Requester: Mankamana Mishra


Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s): 
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 

       
 Can't meet: Monday morning, Tuesday morning, Wednesday morning, Thursday morning, Friday morning, Friday early afternoon, Friday late afternoon

People who must be present:
  Mankamana Prasad Mishra
  Martin Vigoureux
  Matthew Bocci
  Stephane Litkowski

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------



From nobody Mon Feb 28 08:44:18 2022
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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : BGP MPLS-Based Ethernet VPN
        Authors         : Ali Sajassi
                          Luc Andre Burdet
                          John Drake
                          Jorge Rabadan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-03.txt
	Pages           : 70
	Date            : 2022-02-28

Abstract:
   This document describes procedures for BGP MPLS-based Ethernet VPNs
   (EVPN).  The procedures described here meet the requirements
   specified in RFC 7209 -- "Requirements for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)".

Note to Readers

   _RFC EDITOR: please remove this section before publication_

   The complete and detailed set of all changes between this version and
   RFC7432 may be found as an Annotated Diff (rfcdiff) here
   (https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https://www.rfc-
   editor.org/rfc/rfc7432.txt&url2=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/
   draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-03.txt).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-03


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



Hi Sasha,

Thanks for your response. I agree,=
 using a manually=C2=A0configured ID is the best option when VID translatio=
n=C2=A0is performed at one or more ingress PEs that are part of the multi-h=
omed group to obtain a predictable default DF election result..=C2=A0
=


That said, the current situ=
ation is, different vendors seem=C2=A0to use different VIDs for DF election=
 when VID translation is performed at the ingress PE; some seem to use the =
translated VID and some even the BGP router ID when the translation rule re=
moves the tag entirely (making it untagged) without proving a configurable =
ID..

How about addin=
g some text to=C2=A0rfc7432bis section 6?

<original-text>
=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0An Ethernet Tag ID is a 32-bit field containing either a 12-bit or=C2=A0 =C2=A024-bit identifier that identifies a particular broadcast doma=
in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g., a VLAN) in an EVPN instance.=C2=A0 The 12-bit ide=
ntifier is called
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the VLAN ID (VID).=C2=A0 An EVPN instance=
 consists of one or more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0broadcast domains (one or more VLA=
Ns).=C2=A0 VLANs are assigned to a given
=C2=A0 =C2=A0EVPN instance by t=
he provider of the EVPN service.=C2=A0 A given VLAN can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0its=
elf be represented by multiple VIDs.=C2=A0 In such cases, the PEs
=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0participating in that VLAN for a given EVPN instance are responsible=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0for performing VLAN ID translation to/from locally attache=
d CE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.
</original-t=
ext>

<updated-te=
xt>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0An Ethernet Tag ID is a 32-bit field containing eith=
er a 12-bit or
=C2=A0 =C2=A024-bit identifier that identifies a particul=
ar broadcast domain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g., a VLAN) in an EVPN instance.=C2=
=A0 The 12-bit identifier is called
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the VLAN ID (VID).=C2=
=A0 An EVPN instance consists of one or more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0broadcast doma=
ins (one or more VLANs).=C2=A0 VLANs are assigned to a given
=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0EVPN instance by the provider of the EVPN service.=C2=A0 A given VLAN ca=
n
=C2=A0 =C2=A0itself be represented by multiple VIDs.=C2=A0 In such cas=
es, the PEs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0participating in that VLAN for a given EVPN ins=
tance are responsible
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for performing VLAN ID translation to=
/from locally attached CE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0devices. If a PE performs VID =
translation of frames received from
=C2=A0 =C2=A0locally attached CE (in=
cluding removing all tags making it untagged),
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the PE SHOUL=
D provide a configurable ID for the EVPN instance for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the p=
urpose of DF election.
</updated-text>

Regards,
Muthu

On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 6:53 PM Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com> wro=
te:











Muthu,


Quoting from 
Section 3 of 7432bis:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ethernet Tag:=C2=A0 Used to represe=
nt a BD that is configured on a given


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ES for the purpos=
es of DF election and <EVI, BD> identification

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for frames receiv=
ed from the CE.=C2=A0 Note that any of the following

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 may be used to re=
present a BD: VIDs (including Q-in-Q tags),


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 configured IDs, V=
NIs (Virtual Extensible Local Area Network


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (VXLAN) Network I=
dentifiers), normalized VIDs, I-SIDs (Service


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Instance Identifi=
ers), etc., as long as the representation of the


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 BDs is configured=
 consistently across the multihomed PEs attached


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to that ES.


=C2=A0


As I see it, using manually configured IDs can addre=
ss your concerns.


=C2=A0


Regards,


Sasha


=C2=A0


Office: +972-39266302


Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-549266302


Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 Alexander.Vainshtein@rbbn.com<=
u>


=C2=A0




From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of =

Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal

Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 1:23 PM

To: bess@ietf.org=


Subject: [EXTERNAL] [bess] EVPN service carving with ingress VLAN tr=
anslation




=C2=A0






Hi,






=C2=A0






Though rfc7432bis=C2=A0recommends VLAN translation to be performed =
at the disposition PE (for VLAN-based and VLAN-aware bundle services), I be=
lieve there are existing deployments
 where VLAN translation is performed=C2=A0at the ingress PE. In this scenar=
io, is there any guideline=C2=A0on whether=C2=A0service carving is to be pe=
rformed based on the original VLAN or translated=C2=A0VLAN?






=C2=A0






I think this cannot be left implementation specific, since DF elect=
ion is a distributed algorithm and should yield the same result in all PEs =
that are part of the multi-homed
 group.






=C2=A0






Any feedback would be helpful..






=C2=A0






Regards,






Muthu








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ttachments.








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From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:03:36 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Roman Danyliw 
Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org, BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Roman,

Thanks for your review. Please check inline for a response to your proposed
text change.


On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 8:47 AM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thank you to Joseph Salowey for the SECDIR review.
>
> Thank you to the authors for the implementation report pointer
> (draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status)
>
> I support Alvaro Retana=E2=80=99s DISCUSS position.
>
> I also support Warren Kumari=E2=80=99s DISCUSS position.  In particular,
> discussing the
> magnitude of the exposure of an internal topology due to a BGP leak would
> be
> helpful to document.
>
> ** Section 8.  It would be worth repeating the two key security assumptio=
ns
> from RFC8402:
>
> OLD
> SRv6 operates within a trusted SR domain with filtering of traffic at
>    the domain boundaries.
>
> NEW
> SRv6 operates within a trusted SR domain with filtering of traffic at the
> domain boundaries. Likewise, there is an assumed trust model such that an=
y
> node
> adding an SRH to the packet is assumed to be allowed to do so.
>
>
KT> I agree. I think it would be good to also qualify the newly inserted
sentence with the option of using the SRH HMAC TLV (where verification is
required) that was introduced by RFC8754.

Thanks,
Ketan

--000000000000d988c005d8210502
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Hi Roman,

Thanks for y=
our review. Please check inline for a response to your proposed text change=
.


On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 8:47 AM Roman Danyliw via Dat=
atracker <noreply@=
ietf.org> wrote:
Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: No Objection



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/h=
andling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-bess-srv6-services/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



Thank you to Joseph Salowey for the SECDIR review.



Thank you to the authors for the implementation report pointer

(draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status)



I support Alvaro Retana=E2=80=99s DISCUSS position.



I also support Warren Kumari=E2=80=99s DISCUSS position.=C2=A0 In particula=
r, discussing the

magnitude of the exposure of an internal topology due to a BGP leak would b=
e

helpful to document.



** Section 8.=C2=A0 It would be worth repeating the two key security assump=
tions

from RFC8402:



OLD

SRv6 operates within a trusted SR domain with filtering of traffic at

=C2=A0 =C2=A0the domain boundaries.



NEW

SRv6 operates within a trusted SR domain with filtering of traffic at the
domain boundaries. Likewise, there is an assumed trust model such that any =
node

adding an SRH to the packet is assumed to be allowed to do so.



KT> I agree. I think it would be go=
od to also qualify the newly inserted sentence with the option of using the=
 SRH HMAC TLV (where verification is required) that was introduced by RFC87=
54.

Thanks,
Ketan

=C2=A0


--000000000000d988c005d8210502--


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From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Luc_Andr=E9_Burdet?= 
To: "mxhajduczenia@gmail.com" , "bess@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02
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Subject: Re: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02
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Hi Marek,

You can just submit them to the alias, or to the authors (draft-ietf-bess-r=
fc7432bis@ietf.org).
(In tracker there are 2 links for =91Email authors=92 and =91Email WG=92)

I am preparing an up-revision soon so your comments are welcome and timely =
(PDF is fine)

Regards,
Luc Andr=E9

Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisco  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com  |  Tel: +1 613 254=
 4814


From: BESS  on behalf of mxhajduczenia@gmail.com 
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:04
To: bess@ietf.org 
Subject: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02
Hi,

I have a generic question about submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess=
-rfc7432bis-02. I read the document in detail and marked up a number of com=
ments / suggestions in the PDF document. Is there any formal process to sub=
mit these comments and have them reviewed?

I am new to the IETF process, hence the question

Thanks

Marek

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Hi M=
arek,


 


You =
can just submit them to the alias, or to the authors (draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis@ietf.org).=



(In =
tracker there are 2 links for =91Email authors=92 and =91Email WG=92)<=
/o:p>


 


I am=
 preparing an up-revision soon so your comments are welcome and timely (PDF=
 is fine)


 




Regards,


Luc Andr=E9

 


Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisc=
o  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com  |  Tel: +1 613 254 4814<=
o:p>




 


 




From:
BESS=
 <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of mxhajduczenia@gmail.com <mxh=
ajduczenia@gmail.com>

Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:04

To: bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432b=
is-02








Hi, 


 


I have a generic question about=
 submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02. I read the docu=
ment in detail and marked up a number of comments / suggestions in the PDF =
document. Is there any formal process
 to submit these comments and have them reviewed? 


 


I am new to the IETF process, h=
ence the question



 


Thanks 


 


Marek










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Thank you, Luc Andr=E9

=20

CCing the dedicated distro for this document.=20

=20

Attached please find the document with comments (92 in total). A large =
share
are editorial (I hope these are self-explanatory), but there are also a
number of technical questions / comments. Is there any interactive =
comment
resolution process planned for this document at any point of time?=20

=20

Regards

=20

Marek

=20

From: Luc Andr=E9 Burdet =20
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 8:10 AM
To: mxhajduczenia@gmail.com; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] Submitting comments against
draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02

=20

Hi Marek,

=20

You can just submit them to the alias, or to the authors
(draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis@ietf.org
 ).

(In tracker there are 2 links for =91Email authors=92 and =91Email =
WG=92)

=20

I am preparing an up-revision soon so your comments are welcome and =
timely
(PDF is fine)

=20

Regards,

Luc Andr=E9

=20

Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisco  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com
   |  Tel: +1 613 254 4814

=20

=20

From: BESS  > on =
behalf
of mxhajduczenia@gmail.com 
 >
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:04
To: bess@ietf.org    >
Subject: [bess] Submitting comments against =
draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02

Hi,=20

=20

I have a generic question about submitting comments against
draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02. I read the document in detail and marked =
up a
number of comments / suggestions in the PDF document. Is there any =
formal
process to submit these comments and have them reviewed?=20

=20

I am new to the IETF process, hence the question=20

=20

Thanks=20

=20

Marek


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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Thank you, Luc =
Andr=E9
 
CCing the dedicated distro for this document. =

 
Attached please find the document with comments (92 in =
total). A large share are editorial (I hope these are self-explanatory), =
but there are also a number of technical questions / comments. Is there =
any interactive comment resolution process planned for this document at =
any point of time? 
 
Regards
 
Marek
 
From: Luc Andr=E9 Burdet =
<laburdet.ietf@gmail.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, =
2022 8:10 AM
To: mxhajduczenia@gmail.com; =
bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] Submitting comments against =
draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02
 
Hi Marek,
 
You can just submit =
them to the alias, or to the authors (draft-ietf-bess-rfc74=
32bis@ietf.org).
(In tracker there are 2 links for =
‘Email authors’ and ‘Email =
WG’)
 
I am preparing an =
up-revision soon so your comments are welcome and timely (PDF is =
fine)
 
Regards,
Luc =
Andr=E9
 
Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisco  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com =
 |  Tel: +1 613 254 4814
 
 
From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on =
behalf of mxhajduczenia@gmail.com =
<mxhajduczenia@gmail.com>Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:04
To: bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: =
[bess] Submitting comments against =
draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02
Hi, 
 
I have a =
generic question about submitting comments against =
draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02. I read the document in detail and marked =
up a number of comments / suggestions in the PDF document. Is there any =
formal process to submit these comments and have them reviewed? =

 
I am new to the IETF process, hence the question =

 
Thanks 
 
Marek

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Thanks Marek.
I will go through them and just reply on-thread (here) with any questions o=
r clarifications.

Regards,
Luc Andr=E9

Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisco  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com  |  Tel: +1 613 254=
 4814


From: Marek Hajduczenia 
Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:17
To: 'Luc Andr=E9 Burdet' , bess@ietf.org , draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis@ietf.org 
Subject: RE: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-=
02
Thank you, Luc Andr=E9

CCing the dedicated distro for this document.

Attached please find the document with comments (92 in total). A large shar=
e are editorial (I hope these are self-explanatory), but there are also a n=
umber of technical questions / comments. Is there any interactive comment r=
esolution process planned for this document at any point of time?

Regards

Marek

From: Luc Andr=E9 Burdet 
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 8:10 AM
To: mxhajduczenia@gmail.com; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-=
02

Hi Marek,

You can just submit them to the alias, or to the authors (draft-ietf-bess-r=
fc7432bis@ietf.org).
(In tracker there are 2 links for =91Email authors=92 and =91Email WG=92)

I am preparing an up-revision soon so your comments are welcome and timely =
(PDF is fine)

Regards,
Luc Andr=E9

Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisco  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com  |  Tel: +1 613 254 4814


From: BESS > on behalf =
of mxhajduczenia@gmail.com >
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:04
To: bess@ietf.org >
Subject: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02
Hi,

I have a generic question about submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess=
-rfc7432bis-02. I read the document in detail and marked up a number of com=
ments / suggestions in the PDF document. Is there any formal process to sub=
mit these comments and have them reviewed?

I am new to the IETF process, hence the question

Thanks

Marek

--_000_BL3PR02MB8130C6CAB4B5C63A1125EF68AF359BL3PR02MB8130namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Than=
ks Marek.


I wi=
ll go through them and just reply on-thread (here) with any questions or cl=
arifications.


 




Regards,


Luc Andr=E9

 


Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisc=
o  |  laburdet.ietf@gmail.com  |  Tel: +1 613 254 4814<=
o:p>




 


 




From:
Mare=
k Hajduczenia <mxhajduczenia@gmail.com>

Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:17

To: 'Luc Andr=E9 Burdet' <laburdet.ietf@gmail.com>, bess@ietf.=
org <bess@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis@ietf.org <draft-ie=
tf-bess-rfc7432bis@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7=
432bis-02




Thank you, Luc Andr=E9


 


CCing the dedicated distro for =
this document.



 


Attached please find the docume=
nt with comments (92 in total). A large share are editorial (I hope these a=
re self-explanatory), but there are also a number of technical questions / =
comments. Is there any interactive comment
 resolution process planned for this document at any point of time? 


 


Regards


 


Marek


 






From: Luc Andr=E9 Burdet <laburdet.ietf@gmail.com>


Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 8:10 AM

To: mxhajduczenia@gmail.com; bess@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7=
432bis-02






 


Hi M=
arek,


&nbs=
p;


You =
can just submit them to the alias, or to the authors (draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis@ietf.org).=



(In =
tracker there are 2 links for =91Email authors=92 and =91Email WG=92)


&nbs=
p;


I am=
 preparing an up-revision soon so your comments are welcome and timely (PDF=
 is fine)


&nbs=
p;




Regards,


Luc Andr=E9

 


Luc Andr=E9 Burdet |  Cisc=
o  |  
laburdet.ietf@gmail.com  |  Tel: +1 613 254 4814




&nbs=
p;


&nbs=
p;




From:
BESS=
 <bess-bounces@ietf.org>=
 on behalf of
mxhajduczenia@gmail.com <=
mxhajduczenia@gmail.com><=
br>
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:04

To: bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: [bess] Submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432b=
is-02








Hi, 


 


I have a generic question about=
 submitting comments against draft-ietf-bess-rfc7432bis-02. I read the docu=
ment in detail and marked up a number of comments / suggestions in the PDF =
document. Is there any formal process
 to submit these comments and have them reviewed? 


 


I am new to the IETF process, h=
ence the question



 


Thanks 


 


Marek










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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)" 
To: Gyan Mishra 
CC: Anoop Ghanwani , BESS , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
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Hi Gyan,

Thank you for your feedback and support.

The document attempts to address all tunnels that can be used in EVPN Multi=
-homing PEs. In that respect, we should probably do a better job defining w=
hat those tunnels are.
The division at the moment is: non-IP MPLS, NVO tunnels, SRv6.

  *   Where NVO tunnels are, in general, IP tunnels that can convey an Ethe=
rnet payload =96 that includes the ones in RFC8365, but not limited to the =
ones in RFC8365.

In that sense, we can classify MPLSoGRE, MPLSoUDP, VXLAN, VXLAN-GPE, etc al=
l as NVO tunnels.

If you agree with the above, we can make the necessary edits to make the te=
xt consistent with that, as part of this WGLC.

Thanks!
Jorge

From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 8:37 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) 
Cc: Anoop Ghanwani , BESS , bess-chai=
rs@ietf.org , draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@i=
etf.org , slitkows.ietf@gma=
il.com 
Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-e=
vpn-mh-split-horizon

Hi Jorge & Authors

I support publication of this document and have a few comments  thatT I thi=
nk will help clarify and improve the document.

The specification is clear on the solution with two new flags to indicate S=
HT type ESI or Local Bias for NVO use cases.

Table 1 lists different tunnel encapsulations.

What I did notice is that VXLAN GPE is not included which should be.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe

Also I noticed that RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is included and that is an NVO tunnel=
 and is not listed in RFC 8365 which does have VXLAN GPE.

IANA codepoints table


Value    Name

   -----    ------------------------

   8        VXLAN Encapsulation

   9        NVGRE Encapsulation

   10       MPLS Encapsulation

   11       MPLS in GRE Encapsulation

   12       VXLAN GPE Encapsulation

RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is a not an NVO tunnel and is used for special use cases =
for UDP based ECMP or LAG.


As well MPLS  listed is  transport technology and not NVO tunnels which MPL=
S based EVPN for NG L2 VPN RFC 7432 utilizes ESI label natively by default =
for PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay and is not an an NVO overlay.

As well SRv6  listed is a transport technology  and not NVO tunnels which u=
ses MPLS based EVPN equivalent SRv6 L2 service SID TLV is encoded in BGP Pr=
efix SID attribute per SRv6 BGP based services draft and utilizes ESI label=
 natively by default for PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay and is not an an NVO =
overlay.

MPLS and SRv6 should be in a separate table maybe as it=92s not an an NVO t=
unnel or maybe mention that it=92s a transport and can take advantage of SH=
T flag.

I agree that SRv6 and MPLS transports should be included so they can take a=
dvantage of the SHT flag.

The verbiage MPLS based NVO tunnel is clear and that would be in the NVO tu=
nnel table be MPLSoGRE RFC 4023 and all other NVO tunnels are Non MPLS base=
d.

Many Thanks

Gyan

On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 4:10 PM Gyan Mishra > wrote:

I support publication.

Thanks

Gyan

On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 1:41 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) > wrote:
Thank you Anoop. We will fix those in the next version.
Jorge

From: Anoop Ghanwani >
Date: Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:19 AM
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com >
Cc: BESS >, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-spl=
it-horizon@ietf.org =
>, bess-chairs@ietf.org >
Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-e=
vpn-mh-split-horizon
I support the publication of the draft as an RFC.

Below are some minor editorial comments.

Anoop

=3D=3D

Multiple sections

Probably better to replace all uses of Ethernet Segment with ES rather than=
 use them at random.

Section 1

Expand first use of "SID".

will keeo following
->
will keep following

Section 2.2

A value of 01
   indicates the intend to use
->
A value of 01
   indicates the intent to use

A value of 10 indicates the intend to
   use
->
A value of 10 indicates the intent to
   use

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM > wrote:

Hello Working Group,



This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-ev=
pn-mh-split-horizon [1].



This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.



We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th=
is document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF =
IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document please res=
pond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevan=
t undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers from all the=
 Authors and Contributors.



There is no IPR currently disclosed.



If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please explicitly=
 respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i=
n conformance with IETF rules.



We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2].



    Thank you,

    Stephane & Matthew


    [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-hori=
zon/

    [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjq=
Dpw

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
_______________________________________________
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BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
--

[http://ss7.vzw.com/is/image/VerizonWireless/vz-logo-email]

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect

Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

M 301 502-1347

--

[http://ss7.vzw.com/is/image/VerizonWireless/vz-logo-email]

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect

Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

M 301 502-1347


--_000_BY3PR08MB706037B7A4DAA9D5C11FDC36F7359BY3PR08MB7060namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Gyan,


 


Thank you for your feedback and support.


 


The document attempts to address all tunnels that can be used in EVPN Mul=
ti-homing PEs. In that respect, we should probably do a better job defining=
 what those tunnels are.


The division at the moment is: non-IP MPLS, NVO tunnels, SRv6.



    

  • Where NVO tunne=
ls are, in general, IP tunnels that can convey an Ethernet payload =96 that=
 includes the ones in RFC8365, but not limited
 to the ones in RFC8365.


 


In that sense, we can classify MPLSoGRE, MPLSoUDP, VXLAN, VXLAN-GPE, etc =
all as NVO tunnels.


 


If you agree with the above, we can make the necessary edits to make the =
text consistent with that, as part of this WGLC.


 


Thanks!


Jorge




 





From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>=
;

Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 8:37 PM

To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.co=
m>

Cc: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>, BESS <bess@ietf=
.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bes=
s-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@=
ietf.org>, slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf=
-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon








 






Hi Jorge & Authors






 






I support publication of this document and have a few comments &n=
bsp;thatT I think will help clarify and improve the document.






 






The specification is clear on the solution with two new flags to =
indicate SHT type ESI or Local Bias for NVO use cases.





 






Table 1 lists different tunnel encapsulations.<=
/p>





 






What I did notice is that VXLAN GPE is not included which should =
be.






 









 






Also I noticed that RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is included and that is an =
NVO tunnel and is not listed in RFC 8365 which does have VXLAN GPE.






 






IANA codepoints table 






 






Value    Name


 &n=
bsp; -----    ------------------------

 &n=
bsp; 8        VXLAN Encapsulation


 &n=
bsp; 9        NVGRE Encapsulation


 &n=
bsp; 10       MPLS Encapsulation


 &n=
bsp; 11       MPLS in GRE Encapsulation<=
/o:p>


 &n=
bsp; 12       VXLAN GPE Encapsulation


 






RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is a not an NVO tunnel and is used for special =
use cases for UDP based ECMP or LAG.






 






 






As well MPLS  listed is  transport technology and not N=
VO tunnels which MPLS based EVPN for NG L2 VPN RFC 7432 utilizes ESI label =
natively by default for PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay
 and is not an an NVO overlay.




 






As well SRv6  liste=
d is a transport technology  and not NVO tunnels which uses MPLS based=
 EVPN equivalent SRv6 L2 service SID TLV is encoded
 in BGP Prefix SID attribute per SRv6 BGP based services draft and utilizes=
 ESI label natively by default for PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay and is not =
an an NVO overlay.






 






MPLS and SRv6 should be =
in a separate table maybe as it=92s not an an NVO tunnel or maybe mention t=
hat it=92s a transport and can take advantage
 of SHT flag. 






 






I agree that SRv6 and MP=
LS transports should be included so they can take advantage of the SHT flag=
.






 






The verbiage MPLS based NVO tunnel is clear and that would be in =
the NVO tunnel table be MPLSoGRE RFC 4023 and all other NVO tunnels are Non=
 MPLS based.   






 








Many Thanks 










 






Gyan










 









 






I support publication.






 






Thanks 






 






Gyan






 






On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 1:41 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyva=
le) <jorge.=
rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:











Thank you Anoop. We w=
ill fix those in the next version.<=
o:p>











Jorge



 





From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>

Date: Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:19 AM

To: sli=
tkows.ietf@gmail.com <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Cc: BESS <bess=
@ietf.org>,
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org <dr=
aft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org>,
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org <bess-=
chairs@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf=
-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon









I support the publication of the draft as =
an RFC.







 







Below are some minor editorial comments.







 







Anoop







 







=3D=3D







 





Multiple sections





 







Probably better to replace all uses of Eth=
ernet Segment with ES rather than use them at random.







 







Section 1





 







Expand first use of "SID".<=
/o:p>







will keeo following

->

will keep following





 







Section 2.2









A value of 01

   indicates the intend to use

->

A value of 01

   indicates the intent to use







A value of 10 indicates the intend to

   use

->

A value of 10 indicates the intent to

   use







 







On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM <slitkows.ietf@gmail.=
com> wrote:










Hello Working Group,


    


This email starts a two weeks Working Group=
 Last Call on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon [1].



 


This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.=



 


We are also polling for knowledge of any un=
disclosed IPR that applies to this document, to ensure that IPR has been di=
sclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 53=
78 for more details).


If you are listed as an Author or a Contrib=
utor of this document please respond to this email and indicate whether or =
not you are aware of any relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progr=
ess without answers from all the Authors
 and Contributors.


 


There is no IPR currently disclosed.


 


If you are not listed as an Author or a Con=
tributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR t=
hat has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.

 


We are also polling for any existing implem=
entation as per [2].



    


    Thank you,


    Stephane & Matthew


 



    [1] 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon/=



    [2] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw<=
o:p>



 







__________________________________________=
_____

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess










_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess








--





















<=
/span>



Gya=
n Mishra



Networ=
k Solutions Architect 



Email 
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com=




M 301 =
502-1347






 






























--





















<=
/span>



Gya=
n Mishra



Networ=
k Solutions Architect 



Email 
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com=




M 301 =
502-1347






 
























--_000_BY3PR08MB706037B7A4DAA9D5C11FDC36F7359BY3PR08MB7060namp_--


From nobody Wed Feb 16 10:27:03 2022
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : SRv6 BGP based Overlay Services
        Authors         : Gaurav Dawra
                          Clarence Filsfils
                          Ketan Talaulikar
                          Robert Raszuk
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Shunwan Zhuang
                          Jorge Rabadan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11.txt
	Pages           : 33
	Date            : 2022-02-16

Abstract:
   This document defines procedures and messages for SRv6-based BGP
   services including L3VPN, EVPN, and Internet services.  It builds on
   RFC4364 "BGP/MPLS IP Virtual Private Networks (VPNs)" and RFC7432
   "BGP MPLS-Based Ethernet VPN".


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:58:31 +0530
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To: Alvaro Retana 
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Hi Alvaro,

Thanks for your detailed review and comments. Please check inline below for
responses.

We have also posted an update for the draft to address comments from you
and other reviewers:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11


On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 11:29 PM Alvaro Retana via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I am balloting DISCUSS because the document underspecifies the use of
> Endpoint
> Behaviors. As a result, it is unclear when they should be checked,
> enforced,
> or needed. Details follow.
>
>
> The descriptions of the TLVs in =C2=A72 say (twice) that the "SRv6 Endpoi=
nt
> behaviors which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are...etc."
>
>    The text above ends with "etc." which means there are other possible
>    behaviors. That's not a great use of normative language, even if
> optional.
>

KT> Agree. We have removed the "etc".


>    My initial instinct was to ask you to be specific, BUT...
>
>    The description of the SRv6 SID Information Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.1) says t=
hat "an
>    unrecognized endpoint behavior MUST NOT be considered invalid", which
> seems
>    to mean that any behavior is ok, AND...
>
>    There's no validation specified, except for the description of the SRv=
6
> SID
>    Structure Sub-Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.2.1), where it says that the "Argument =
length
>    MUST be set to 0 for SIDs where the Argument is not applicable". AND..=
.
>
>    Several of the service descriptions in =C2=A75/=C2=A76 say that "The S=
Rv6 Endpoint
>    behavior of the SRv6 SID is entirely up to the originator of the
>    advertisement. In practice, the SRv6 Endpoint behavior is..."
>
>
> The result is that any endpoint behavior (even unrecognized) can be used,
> while also requiring a specific setting for the argument length in some
> cases.
>
> How can the argument length be validated if the endpoint behavior is
> unknown?
>

KT> The argument length cannot be validated unless the endpoint behavior is
known. The ingress PE needs to actually write the ARG part of the SID into
the SRv6 SID advertised by the egress PE when sending packets for that
service to the egress PE. Therefore, knowing that the behavior involves
argument and validating the argument length is important. We have clarified
this in the text.


>
> Clearly (from looking at rfc8986), not all endpoint behaviors apply to th=
e
> services defined in this document. Should a receiver accept any endpoint
> behavior? What should a receiver do if a known but unrelated behavior (En=
d,
> for example) is received?
>
> What should the receiver do if the endpoint behavior is known and
> applicable,
> but the attribute length is not set correctly?
>

KT> Could you clarify which attribute length you are referring to?


>
> For any specific service (IPv4 VPN Over SRv6 Core, for example, to pick
> one),
> should the behaviors used "in practice" be enforced? What if different
> behavior
> is advertised? Can it safely be ignored?
>
> Why is the Endpoint Behavior included in the Sub-TLV if (from the above) =
it
> looks like it doesn't matter?
>

KT> The endpoint behavior is something that is associated with the SID
instantiated on the Egress PE. In most cases for VPN services, the ingress
PE simply needs to use the SID to send the packet to the egress PE. This is
much like how a context/instruction is associated with the VPN label for
MPLS - it could be per-vrf or per-ce or per-prefix - normally the ingress
PE does not care. However, with SRv6, we have behaviors that have arguments
that do require the ingress PE to be aware since it needs to set up the ARG
part of the SID in the packet encapsulation. In certain other cases, the
knowledge of the behavior on the ingress PE could enable local optimization
which we do want to preclude. Having the ability to signal the SRv6
Endpoint behavior also helps in troubleshooting and monitoring.


>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> (1) To make sure, the new "BGP SRv6 Service SID Flags" registry is
> intended to document the allocations for the "SRv6 SID Flags" field in th=
e
> SRv6 SID Information Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.1), right?
>

KT> Correct.


>
> Please say so somewhere.  It would also be nice if the name of the field
> (SRv6
> SID Flags) and the registry (SRv6 Service SID Flags) matched.  I realize
> that
> fitting the full name in the figure won't work, but you can either use
> multiple
> lines (as you have already) or call the field simply "Flags," then extend
> to the full name in the description of the field...or many other ways to
> avoid
> confusion.
>

KT> We have fixed the figure and description to match the registry name.


>
>
> (2) =C2=A73.1:
>
>       SRv6 SID Flags (1 octet): Encodes SRv6 SID Flags - none are
>       currently defined.  SHOULD be set to 0 by the sender and MUST be
>       ignored by the receiver.
>
> If/when the flags are defined, the behavior specified here won't be
> compatible.
> Instead, a behavior that assumes that some of the flags will be known in
> the
> future would be better.  For example: any unknown flags MUST be ignored b=
y
> the
> receiver.
>

KT> Ack. Fixed.


>
>
> (3) =C2=A73.1: "SRv6 Endpoint Behavior...The opaque endpoint behavior (i.=
e.,
> value
> 0xFFFF)...MUST NOT be considered invalid by the receiver."
>
> Ok, but the opaque behavior is not defined as invalid in rfc8986 or
> anywhere
> else (AFAIK).  rfc8986 includes a note specifically for the cases in
> this document in =C2=A78.3. So this requirement is not needed.
>

KT> Ack. It is covered by RFC8986. We have rephrased the sentence.


>
>
> (4) =C2=A73.2.1: "Transposition Length of 0 ... In this case, the Transpo=
sition
> Offset MUST be set to 0."
>
> What should the receiver do if the offset is not set to 0?
>

KT> If the checks in sec 3.2.1 fail, then the error handling is done as per
sec 8. Please also see the next response.


>
>
> (5) =C2=A73.2.1: According to rfc8986, the sum of the Loc + Func + Agr <=
=3D 128.
> The
> inclusion of the transposition fields changes the formula to add the new
> length.  Please indicate the new constraints.  What should the receiver d=
o
> if
> the sum of the lengths is not <=3D 128?
>

KT> Ack. We have added the constraints for the fields of this sub-sub-tlv
as also the clarification for handling in sec 8.


>
>
> (6) =C2=A73.2.1: "Arguments MAY be generally applicable for SIDs of only
> specific
> SRv6 Endpoint behaviors"  In this case, "MAY" is just stating a fact
> (specified
> in rfc8986): s/MAY/may
>

KT> Ack. Fixed.


>
>
> (7) =C2=A75: s/MUST choose to perform IPv6 encapsulation/MUST perform IPv=
6
> encapsulation
>
> To choose is not normatively enforceable; encapsulating is.
>

KT> Ack. Fixed.


>
>
> (8) =C2=A75:
>
>    The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS of the egress
>    PE and serves the dual purpose of providing reachability between
>    ingress PE and egress PE while also encoding the SRv6 Endpoint
>    behavior.
>
> Is it ever ok for the SID to not be routable?  If so, when?  The "purpose
> of
> providing reachability" requires the SID to be routable.  IOW, why is thi=
s
> behavior recommended and not required?
>

KT> An SRv6 SID may not be routable across multiple IGP domains within a
provider network when routes are not leaked. There can be other mechanisms
like SR Policies (or other forms of tunneling) that provide reachability.
In other scenarios, due to local policy, the resolution may be desired over
an SR Policy instead of the best-effort reachability provided by IGPs.


>
>
> (9) Both =C2=A75/=C2=A76 say that the "ingress PE SHOULD perform resolvab=
ility check
> for
> the SRv6 Service SID before considering the received prefix for the BGP
> best
> path computation."
>
> By "resolvability check", do you mean the "Route Resolvability Condition"
> from
> =C2=A79.1.2.1/rfc4271??  If so, please be explicit.
>
> Given that we're talking about services, which table should be used to
> resolve
> the SID?  This question is something that rfc4271 doesn't cover [1].
> Please add
> something similar to this text from rfc9012 (where the resolvability
> condition
> is mentioned):
>
>    The reachability condition is evaluated as per [RFC4271].  If the IP
>    address is reachable via more than one forwarding table, local policy =
is
>    used to determine which table to use.
>

KT> Ack. Updated the text.


>
> [1]
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-bestpath-selecti=
on-criteria
>
>
> (10) [nits]
>
> s/multiple instances...is encountered/multiple instances...are
> encountered/g
>

KT> Ack. Fixed.


>
> Please add figure numbers to all the packet formats, etc.
>

KT> Ack. Fixed.

Thanks,
Ketan

--000000000000bfd56b05d826d1cf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Alvaro,

Thanks for your detailed rev=
iew and comments. Please check inline below for responses.

We have also posted an update for the draft to address comments fr=
om you and other reviewers:=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-service=
s-11


On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 11:29 PM Alvaro Retana via D=
atatracker <norepl=
y@ietf.org> wrote:
Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/h=
andling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-bess-srv6-services/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I am balloting DISCUSS because the document underspecifies the use of Endpo=
int

Behaviors. As a result, it is unclear when they should be checked, enforced=
,

or needed. Details follow.





The descriptions of the TLVs in =C2=A72 say (twice) that the "SRv6 End=
point

behaviors which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are...etc."



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The text above ends with "etc." which means there ar=
e other possible

=C2=A0 =C2=A0behaviors. That's not a great use of normative language, e=
ven if optional.

KT> Agree. We have =
removed the "etc".
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0My initial instinct was to ask you to be specific, BUT...



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The description of the SRv6 SID Information Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.1=
) says that "an

=C2=A0 =C2=A0unrecognized endpoint behavior MUST NOT be considered invalid&=
quot;, which seems

=C2=A0 =C2=A0to mean that any behavior is ok, AND...



=C2=A0 =C2=A0There's no validation specified, except for the descriptio=
n of the SRv6 SID

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Structure Sub-Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.2.1), where it says that the &q=
uot;Argument length

=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be set to 0 for SIDs where the Argument is not applicable=
". AND...



=C2=A0 =C2=A0Several of the service descriptions in =C2=A75/=C2=A76 say tha=
t "The SRv6 Endpoint

=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior of the SRv6 SID is entirely up to the originator of t=
he

=C2=A0 =C2=A0advertisement. In practice, the SRv6 Endpoint behavior is...&q=
uot;





The result is that any endpoint behavior (even unrecognized) can be used,
while also requiring a specific setting for the argument length in some cas=
es.



How can the argument length be validated if the endpoint behavior is unknow=
n?

KT> The argument length cannot be=
 validated unless the endpoint behavior is known. The ingress PE needs to a=
ctually write the ARG part of the SID into the SRv6 SID advertised by the e=
gress PE when sending packets for that service to the egress PE. Therefore,=
 knowing that the behavior involves argument and validating the argument le=
ngth is important. We have clarified this in the text.
=C2=A0=




Clearly (from looking at rfc8986), not all endpoint behaviors apply to the<=
br>
services defined in this document. Should a receiver accept any endpoint
behavior? What should a receiver do if a known but unrelated behavior (End,=


for example) is received?



What should the receiver do if the endpoint behavior is known and applicabl=
e,

but the attribute length is not set correctly?

KT> Could you clarify which attribute length you are referring t=
o?
=C2=A0



For any specific service (IPv4 VPN Over SRv6 Core, for example, to pick one=
),

should the behaviors used "in practice" be enforced? What if diff=
erent behavior

is advertised? Can it safely be ignored?



Why is the Endpoint Behavior included in the Sub-TLV if (from the above) it=


looks like it doesn't matter?

KT>=
; The endpoint behavior is something that is associated with the SID instan=
tiated on the Egress PE. In most cases for VPN services, the ingress PE sim=
ply needs to use the SID to send the packet to the egress PE. This is much =
like how a context/instruction is associated with the VPN label for MPLS - =
it could be per-vrf or per-ce or per-prefix - normally the ingress PE does =
not care. However, with SRv6, we have behaviors that have arguments that do=
 require the ingress PE to be aware since it needs to set up=C2=A0the ARG p=
art of the SID in the packet encapsulation. In certain other cases, the kno=
wledge of the behavior on the ingress PE could enable local optimization wh=
ich we do want to preclude. Having the ability to signal the SRv6 Endpoint =
behavior also helps in troubleshooting and monitoring.
=C2=A0





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



(1) To make sure, the new "BGP SRv6 Service SID Flags" registry i=
s

intended to document the allocations for the "SRv6 SID Flags" fie=
ld in the

SRv6 SID Information Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.1), right?

<=
/div>
KT> Correct.
=C2=A0



Please say so somewhere.=C2=A0 It would also be nice if the name of the fie=
ld (SRv6

SID Flags) and the registry (SRv6 Service SID Flags) matched.=C2=A0 I reali=
ze that

fitting the full name in the figure won't work, but you can either use =
multiple

lines (as you have already) or call the field simply "Flags," the=
n extend

to the full name in the description of the field...or many other ways to av=
oid

confusion.

KT> We have fixed the fig=
ure and description to match the registry name.
=C2=A0





(2) =C2=A73.1:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 SID Flags (1 octet): Encodes SRv6 SID Flags - non=
e are

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 currently defined.=C2=A0 SHOULD be set to 0 by the sen=
der and MUST be

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ignored by the receiver.



If/when the flags are defined, the behavior specified here won't be com=
patible.

Instead, a behavior that assumes that some of the flags will be known in th=
e

future would be better.=C2=A0 For example: any unknown flags MUST be ignore=
d by the

receiver.

KT> Ack. Fixed.
=
=C2=A0





(3) =C2=A73.1: "SRv6 Endpoint Behavior...The opaque endpoint behavior =
(i.e., value

0xFFFF)...MUST NOT be considered invalid by the receiver."



Ok, but the opaque behavior is not defined as invalid in rfc8986 or anywher=
e

else (AFAIK).=C2=A0 rfc8986 includes a note specifically for the cases in
this document in =C2=A78.3. So this requirement is not needed.

KT> Ack. It is covered by RFC8986. We have rephr=
ased the sentence.
=C2=A0





(4) =C2=A73.2.1: "Transposition Length of 0 ... In this case, the Tran=
sposition

Offset MUST be set to 0."



What should the receiver do if the offset is not set to 0?
=


KT> If the checks in sec 3.2.1 fail, then the error =
handling is done as per sec 8. Please also see the next response.
=

=C2=A0





(5) =C2=A73.2.1: According to rfc8986, the sum of the Loc + Func + Agr <=
=3D 128.=C2=A0 The

inclusion of the transposition fields changes the formula to add the new
length.=C2=A0 Please indicate the new constraints.=C2=A0 What should the re=
ceiver do if

the sum of the lengths is not <=3D 128?

<=
div>KT> Ack. We have added the constraints for the fields of this sub-su=
b-tlv as also the clarification for handling in sec 8.=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0





(6) =C2=A73.2.1: "Arguments MAY be generally applicable for SIDs of on=
ly specific

SRv6 Endpoint behaviors"=C2=A0 In this case, "MAY" is just s=
tating a fact (specified

in rfc8986): s/MAY/may

KT> Ack. Fixe=
d.
=C2=A0





(7) =C2=A75: s/MUST choose to perform IPv6 encapsulation/MUST perform IPv6<=
br>
encapsulation



To choose is not normatively enforceable; encapsulating is.

KT> Ack. Fixed.
=C2=A0





(8) =C2=A75:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS of the e=
gress

=C2=A0 =C2=A0PE and serves the dual purpose of providing reachability betwe=
en

=C2=A0 =C2=A0ingress PE and egress PE while also encoding the SRv6 Endpoint=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior.



Is it ever ok for the SID to not be routable?=C2=A0 If so, when?=C2=A0 The =
"purpose of

providing reachability" requires the SID to be routable.=C2=A0 IOW, wh=
y is this

behavior recommended and not required?

=
KT> An SRv6 SID may not be routable across multiple IGP domains within a=
 provider network when routes are not leaked. There can be other mechanisms=
 like SR Policies (or other forms of tunneling) that provide reachability. =
In other scenarios, due to local policy, the resolution may be desired over=
 an SR Policy instead of the best-effort reachability provided by IGPs.
=C2=A0





(9) Both =C2=A75/=C2=A76 say that the "ingress PE SHOULD perform resol=
vability check for

the SRv6 Service SID before considering the received prefix for the BGP bes=
t

path computation."



By "resolvability check", do you mean the "Route Resolvabili=
ty Condition" from

=C2=A79.1.2.1/rfc4271??=C2=A0 If so, please be explicit.



Given that we're talking about services, which table should be used to =
resolve

the SID?=C2=A0 This question is something that rfc4271 doesn't cover [1=
]. Please add

something similar to this text from rfc9012 (where the resolvability condit=
ion

is mentioned):



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The reachability condition is evaluated as per [RFC4271].=C2=
=A0 If the IP

=C2=A0 =C2=A0address is reachable via more than one forwarding table, local=
 policy is

=C2=A0 =C2=A0used to determine which table to use.
KT> Ack. Updated the text.
=C2=A0



[1] https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-bestpath-selection-criteria





(10) [nits]



s/multiple instances...is encountered/multiple instances...are encountered/=
g




--000000000000bfd56b05d826d1cf--


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From: Ron Bonica 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
CC: "int-dir@ietf.org" , BESS , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
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Ketan,

Mislabeling attributes is not only sloppy, but it can be dangerous. The dan=
ger is that somebody might read the label and believe it. Or conversely, th=
at our labels will become meaningless, even when they are correct, because =
people learn that things are so frequently mislabeled.

Wouldn't we be better off with a new AFI/SAFI?

                                                                           =
 Ron



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 3:49 AM
To: Ron Bonica 
Cc: int-dir@ietf.org; BESS ; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.a=
ll@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your review and please check inline below for responses.


On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 10:49 PM Ron Bonica via Datatracker > wrote:
Reviewer: Ron Bonica
Review result: Not Ready

I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services=
.txt.
These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Area
Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments jus=
t
like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resolve
them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For m=
ore
details on the INT Directorate, see
https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/
>.

Major issues:

1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. T=
his
is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe w=
e
shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?

KT> You are correct that there are no MPLS labels used in the forwarding. T=
he label fields are part of the BGP NLRI Encoding and not something introdu=
ced newly. The transposition scheme leverages them for encoding efficiency =
and better packing of BGP updates.


2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:

  BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret,
   on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, the part
   of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label values
   for MPLS-based services.  Implementations supporting this
   specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advertisement
   of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-service
   basis.  The details of deployment designs and implementation options
   are outside the scope of this document.

s/BGP speakers that do not support this specification/Legacy BGP implementa=
tions

KT> I am, personally, not in favor of using the term "legacy" in this case.


It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:

- the SHOULD becomes a MUST
- the mechanism is described in this document

KT> Ack. We can change the SHOULD to MUST.

Thanks,
Ketan


3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS


--_000_BL0PR05MB53165E2DA45933B8B65C0AD3AE359BL0PR05MB5316namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Ketan,


 


Mislabeling attribu=
tes is not only sloppy, but it can be dangerous. The danger is that somebod=
y might read the label and believe it. Or conversely, that our labels will =
become meaningless, even when they are
 correct, because people learn that things are so frequently mislabeled.


 


Wouldn’t we b=
e better off with a new AFI/SAFI?


 


   &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;          Ron


 


 



Juniper Business Use Only






From: Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.=
com> 

Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 3:49 AM

To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>

Cc: int-dir@ietf.org; BESS <bess@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-bess-sr=
v6-services.all@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org

Subject: Re: Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services=
-10






 


<=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]


 








Hi Ron, 




 






Thanks for your review and please check inline below=
 for responses.






 






 











Reviewer: Ron Bonica

Review result: Not Ready



I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services=
.txt.

These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Area<=
br>
Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments jus=
t

like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resolve=


them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For m=
ore

details on the INT Directorate, see

https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/in=
tdir/about/

<https://datatracker.ietf.org/grou=
p/intdir/about/>.



Major issues:



1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. T=
his

is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe w=
e

shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?






 






KT> You are correct that there are no MPLS labels=
 used in the forwarding. The label fields are part of the BGP NLRI Encoding=
 and not something introduced newly. The transposition scheme leverages the=
m for encoding efficiency and better
 packing of BGP updates.






 








2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:



  BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret=
,

   on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, th=
e part

   of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label v=
alues

   for MPLS-based services.  Implementations supporting this=


   specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advert=
isement

   of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-ser=
vice

   basis.  The details of deployment designs and implementat=
ion options

   are outside the scope of this document.



s/BGP speakers that do not support this specification/Legacy BGP implementa=
tions






 






KT> I am, personally, not in favor of using the t=
erm "legacy" in this case.






 








It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:



- the SHOULD becomes a MUST

- the mechanism is described in this document






 






KT> Ack. We can change the SHOULD to MUST.






 






Thanks,






Ketan






 








3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS


















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From: John Scudder via Datatracker 
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Subject: [bess] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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John Scudder has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
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Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

1. The shepherd writeup for this document says “It also received an RTG DIR
review and cross-reviewed with the IDR working groupâ€. Searching in my IDR
inbox and the IDR mailing list archives, I don’t find any sign of the
cross-review — can you please point me to it?

2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looked into is, the
document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the NLRI to carry the
Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively split across the
NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential error modes if the
Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the NLRI is retained?

(An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be to define a new
NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively repurposing fields
within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Such an NLRI type
would, for example, presumably state in its specification that if it was
received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that would constitute an
error.)

3. As Warren Kumari points out in his DISCUSS, “leaks happenâ€. Subsequent
discussion turned quickly to the assertion that no, they don’t, in VPN address
families. Let’s accept that claim for the sake of conversation. It’s still the
case that sometimes (often?) routes are distributed from VPN address families
into the Global Internet table. When this is done, by default, all the path
attributes come along for the ride. Anyone who thinks this is just a
hypothetical case might want to look back to (for example) significant network
outages that were caused around a decade ago by leakage of BGP Attribute 128
(ATTR_SET, RFC 6368) into the global Internet.

The SIDs contained in these if-they-were-to-leak routes potentially give an
attacker a means of directing packets into a VPN customer’s internal network.

4. Speaking of Warren’s DISCUSS, the shepherd’s writeup indicates “solid [WG]
consensusâ€; however, there doesn’t seem to be consensus even amongst the
authors as to whether Sections 5.3 and 5.4 are appropriate. This is a fairly
fundamental disagreement! An illustration of the disagreement is
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/K1JKxGn19BXALs3rUzUAaGTZi0Y/:

“So I can see why some people may have thought oh since transport in SRv6 comes
for free let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes I can see
that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to enable), *but
I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here.* This comes as a
consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI (perhaps new format
and new SAFI) to an attribute.â€

(Emphasis added.)

It's of course possible for an author to be in the rough as regards consensus,
just as any other WG contributor, but it's a little unusual, and this
disagreement doesn't even seem to have been previously aired. For this reason,
I have to question the strength of the consensus behind this document, and ask
the WG chairs to weigh in regarding whether consensus on at least this point
needs to be checked before we proceed forward.

5. Finally, I have to question the length of the author list. As I’m sure you
know, the guidance is to limit author lists to no more than five, other than
under unusual circumstances. I would have expected to find an explanation of
the circumstances around the author list of this document in the shepherd
writeup; there is none. (It’s a specific check item in Guidelines to Authors of
Internet-Drafts, https://www.ietf.org/how/ids/guidelines/)

The easiest way to resolve this would be to trim the author list per the
suggestions in RFC 7322 §4.1.1, of course.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

1. I support Warren Kumari’s DISCUSS.

2. (Further comments TBD and I apologize for not providing them now; I wanted
to get this sent off though.)




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From: Robert Raszuk 
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:02:08 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: John Scudder 
Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org, BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi John,

As you have quoted my note in point #4 I feel that I need to comment on it.

So yes original discussions and major contributions of this work were
focusing on VPN use case and I admit when carefully re- reading it to find
some text there beyond VPN use case.

So we discussed it among co-authors. The point of adding 5.3 & 5.4 is
targeting the networks where Internet routes are not present at each node
and network uses summarization of infrastructure routes (no end to end /128
leaking in the IGP).

The text perhaps may require some clarification that use of SAFI 1 is left
for the operators to choose if the attribute should be attached to Internet
routes - when operator is offering an IP transit or it can be attached just
to next hops which are part of the infrastructure. Let's also not forget
that if this is IP transit in most networks you can reach all hops along
the path anyway (modulo transit SP/ISP policy).

I think major concern expressed from Warren was the potential compromise to
the VPNs when SID demuxing it would leak. Well as we know SAFI 128 or 70
are not public. Yes customer may advertise his routes to SAFI 1 and leak
but no one has control over it and it is orthogonal to what happens in the
SP network.

With that I think that #3 and #4 are no longer a concern.

Best regards,
Robert


On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 10:39 PM John Scudder via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> John Scudder has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. The shepherd writeup for this document says =E2=80=9CIt also received =
an RTG DIR
> review and cross-reviewed with the IDR working group=E2=80=9D. Searching =
in my IDR
> inbox and the IDR mailing list archives, I don=E2=80=99t find any sign of=
 the
> cross-review =E2=80=94 can you please point me to it?
>
> 2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looked into is,
> the
> document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the NLRI to carr=
y
> the
> Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively split across
> the
> NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential error modes if
> the
> Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the NLRI is
> retained?
>
> (An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be to define =
a
> new
> NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively repurposing
> fields
> within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Such an NLRI
> type
> would, for example, presumably state in its specification that if it was
> received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that would
> constitute an
> error.)
>
> 3. As Warren Kumari points out in his DISCUSS, =E2=80=9Cleaks happen=E2=
=80=9D. Subsequent
> discussion turned quickly to the assertion that no, they don=E2=80=99t, i=
n VPN
> address
> families. Let=E2=80=99s accept that claim for the sake of conversation. I=
t=E2=80=99s still
> the
> case that sometimes (often?) routes are distributed from VPN address
> families
> into the Global Internet table. When this is done, by default, all the pa=
th
> attributes come along for the ride. Anyone who thinks this is just a
> hypothetical case might want to look back to (for example) significant
> network
> outages that were caused around a decade ago by leakage of BGP Attribute
> 128
> (ATTR_SET, RFC 6368) into the global Internet.
>
> The SIDs contained in these if-they-were-to-leak routes potentially give =
an
> attacker a means of directing packets into a VPN customer=E2=80=99s inter=
nal
> network.
>
> 4. Speaking of Warren=E2=80=99s DISCUSS, the shepherd=E2=80=99s writeup i=
ndicates =E2=80=9Csolid
> [WG]
> consensus=E2=80=9D; however, there doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be consensus e=
ven amongst the
> authors as to whether Sections 5.3 and 5.4 are appropriate. This is a
> fairly
> fundamental disagreement! An illustration of the disagreement is
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/K1JKxGn19BXALs3rUzUAaGTZi0Y/:
>
> =E2=80=9CSo I can see why some people may have thought oh since transport=
 in SRv6
> comes
> for free let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes I
> can see
> that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to enable)=
,
> *but
> I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here.* This comes as a
> consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI (perhaps new
> format
> and new SAFI) to an attribute.=E2=80=9D
>
> (Emphasis added.)
>
> It's of course possible for an author to be in the rough as regards
> consensus,
> just as any other WG contributor, but it's a little unusual, and this
> disagreement doesn't even seem to have been previously aired. For this
> reason,
> I have to question the strength of the consensus behind this document, an=
d
> ask
> the WG chairs to weigh in regarding whether consensus on at least this
> point
> needs to be checked before we proceed forward.
>
> 5. Finally, I have to question the length of the author list. As I=E2=80=
=99m sure
> you
> know, the guidance is to limit author lists to no more than five, other
> than
> under unusual circumstances. I would have expected to find an explanation
> of
> the circumstances around the author list of this document in the shepherd
> writeup; there is none. (It=E2=80=99s a specific check item in Guidelines=
 to
> Authors of
> Internet-Drafts, https://www.ietf.org/how/ids/guidelines/)
>
> The easiest way to resolve this would be to trim the author list per the
> suggestions in RFC 7322 =C2=A74.1.1, of course.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. I support Warren Kumari=E2=80=99s DISCUSS.
>
> 2. (Further comments TBD and I apologize for not providing them now; I
> wanted
> to get this sent off though.)
>
>
>
>

--0000000000003029a705d829cd19
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi John,

As you have quoted my note in =
point #4 I feel that I need to comment on it.=C2=A0

So yes original discussions and major contributions of this work were foc=
using=C2=A0on VPN use case and I admit when carefully re- reading it to fin=
d some text there beyond VPN use case.=C2=A0

So we=
 discussed it among co-authors. The point=C2=A0of adding 5.3 & 5.4 is t=
argeting the networks where Internet=C2=A0routes are not present at each no=
de and network uses summarization of infrastructure routes (no end to end /=
128 leaking in the IGP).=C2=A0

The text perhaps ma=
y require some clarification that use of SAFI 1 is left for the operators t=
o choose if the attribute should be attached to Internet routes - when oper=
ator is offering an IP transit or it can be attached just to next hops whic=
h are part of the infrastructure. Let's also not forget that if this is=
 IP transit in most networks you can reach all hops along the path anyway (=
modulo transit SP/ISP policy).=C2=A0

I think major=
 concern expressed from Warren was the potential compromise=C2=A0to the=C2=
=A0VPNs when SID demuxing it would leak. Well as we know SAFI 128 or 70 are=
 not public. Yes customer may advertise his routes to SAFI 1 and leak but n=
o one has control over it and it is orthogonal to what happens in the SP ne=
twork.=C2=A0

With that I think that #3 and #4 are =
no longer a concern.=C2=A0

Best regards,
Robert


On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 10:39 PM John Scudder=
 via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Jo=
hn Scudder has entered the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/h=
andling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-bess-srv6-services/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



1. The shepherd writeup for this document says =E2=80=9CIt also received an=
 RTG DIR

review and cross-reviewed with the IDR working group=E2=80=9D. Searching in=
 my IDR

inbox and the IDR mailing list archives, I don=E2=80=99t find any sign of t=
he

cross-review =E2=80=94 can you please point me to it?



2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looked into is, th=
e

document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the NLRI to carry =
the

Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively split across th=
e

NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential error modes if th=
e

Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the NLRI is retai=
ned?



(An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be to define a =
new

NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively repurposing fie=
lds

within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Such an NLRI ty=
pe

would, for example, presumably state in its specification that if it was
received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that would constitut=
e an

error.)



3. As Warren Kumari points out in his DISCUSS, =E2=80=9Cleaks happen=E2=80=
=9D. Subsequent

discussion turned quickly to the assertion that no, they don=E2=80=99t, in =
VPN address

families. Let=E2=80=99s accept that claim for the sake of conversation. It=
=E2=80=99s still the

case that sometimes (often?) routes are distributed from VPN address famili=
es

into the Global Internet table. When this is done, by default, all the path=


attributes come along for the ride. Anyone who thinks this is just a

hypothetical case might want to look back to (for example) significant netw=
ork

outages that were caused around a decade ago by leakage of BGP Attribute 12=
8

(ATTR_SET, RFC 6368) into the global Internet.



The SIDs contained in these if-they-were-to-leak routes potentially give an=


attacker a means of directing packets into a VPN customer=E2=80=99s interna=
l network.



4. Speaking of Warren=E2=80=99s DISCUSS, the shepherd=E2=80=99s writeup ind=
icates =E2=80=9Csolid [WG]

consensus=E2=80=9D; however, there doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be consensus eve=
n amongst the

authors as to whether Sections 5.3 and 5.4 are appropriate. This is a fairl=
y

fundamental disagreement! An illustration of the disagreement is

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/=
arch/msg/bess/K1JKxGn19BXALs3rUzUAaGTZi0Y/:



=E2=80=9CSo I can see why some people may have thought oh since transport i=
n SRv6 comes

for free let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes I=
 can see

that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to enable), =
*but

I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here.* This comes as a

consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI (perhaps new form=
at

and new SAFI) to an attribute.=E2=80=9D



(Emphasis added.)



It's of course possible for an author to be in the rough as regards con=
sensus,

just as any other WG contributor, but it's a little unusual, and this
disagreement doesn't even seem to have been previously aired. For this =
reason,

I have to question the strength of the consensus behind this document, and =
ask

the WG chairs to weigh in regarding whether consensus on at least this poin=
t

needs to be checked before we proceed forward.



5. Finally, I have to question the length of the author list. As I=E2=80=99=
m sure you

know, the guidance is to limit author lists to no more than five, other tha=
n

under unusual circumstances. I would have expected to find an explanation o=
f

the circumstances around the author list of this document in the shepherd
writeup; there is none. (It=E2=80=99s a specific check item in Guidelines t=
o Authors of

Internet-Drafts, https://www.ietf.org/how/ids/guidelines/<=
/a>)



The easiest way to resolve this would be to trim the author list per the
suggestions in RFC 7322 =C2=A74.1.1, of course.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



1. I support Warren Kumari=E2=80=99s DISCUSS.



2. (Further comments TBD and I apologize for not providing them now; I want=
ed

to get this sent off though.)










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In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 19:08:19 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)" 
Cc: Anoop Ghanwani , BESS ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org" ,  "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
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Hi Jorge

I agree that having the classification of all IP tunnel that convey
Ethernet Payload not limited to RFC 8365 as NVO tunnels so all inclusive of
MPLSoGRE, MPLSoUDP, VXLAN, VXLAN-GPE, GENEVE, NVGRE

So now you would have 2 categories the NVO category above and the transport
category which would include SRv6, MPLS and SR-MPLS.

Kind Regards

Gyan

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 11:12 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) <
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:

> Hi Gyan,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your feedback and support.
>
>
>
> The document attempts to address all tunnels that can be used in EVPN
> Multi-homing PEs. In that respect, we should probably do a better job
> defining what those tunnels are.
>
> The division at the moment is: non-IP MPLS, NVO tunnels, SRv6.
>
>    - Where NVO tunnels are, in general, IP tunnels that can convey an
>    Ethernet payload =E2=80=93 that includes the ones in RFC8365, but not =
limited to
>    the ones in RFC8365.
>
>
>
> In that sense, we can classify MPLSoGRE, MPLSoUDP, VXLAN, VXLAN-GPE, etc
> all as NVO tunnels.
>
>
>
> If you agree with the above, we can make the necessary edits to make the
> text consistent with that, as part of this WGLC.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> *From: *Gyan Mishra 
> *Date: *Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 8:37 PM
> *To: *Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) 
> *Cc: *Anoop Ghanwani , BESS ,
> bess-chairs@ietf.org ,
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org <
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org>, slitkows.ietf@gmail.com =
<
> slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
>
>
>
> Hi Jorge & Authors
>
>
>
> I support publication of this document and have a few comments  thatT I
> think will help clarify and improve the document.
>
>
>
> The specification is clear on the solution with two new flags to indicate
> SHT type ESI or Local Bias for NVO use cases.
>
>
>
> Table 1 lists different tunnel encapsulations.
>
>
>
> What I did notice is that VXLAN GPE is not included which should be.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe
>
>
>
> Also I noticed that RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is included and that is an NVO
> tunnel and is not listed in RFC 8365 which does have VXLAN GPE.
>
>
>
> IANA codepoints table
>
>
>
> Value    Name
>
>    -----    ------------------------
>
>    8        VXLAN Encapsulation
>
>    9        NVGRE Encapsulation
>
>    10       MPLS Encapsulation
>
>    11       MPLS in GRE Encapsulation
>
>    12       VXLAN GPE Encapsulation
>
>
>
> RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is a not an NVO tunnel and is used for special use case=
s
> for UDP based ECMP or LAG.
>
>
>
>
>
> As well MPLS  listed is  transport technology and not NVO tunnels which
> MPLS based EVPN for NG L2 VPN RFC 7432 utilizes ESI label natively by
> default for PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay and is not an an NVO overlay.
>
>
>
> As well SRv6  listed is a transport technology  and not NVO tunnels which
> uses MPLS based EVPN equivalent SRv6 L2 service SID TLV is encoded in BGP
> Prefix SID attribute per SRv6 BGP based services draft and utilizes ESI
> label natively by default for PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay and is not an =
an
> NVO overlay.
>
>
>
> MPLS and SRv6 should be in a separate table maybe as it=E2=80=99s not an =
an NVO
> tunnel or maybe mention that it=E2=80=99s a transport and can take advant=
age of SHT
> flag.
>
>
>
> I agree that SRv6 and MPLS transports should be included so they can take
> advantage of the SHT flag.
>
>
>
> The verbiage MPLS based NVO tunnel is clear and that would be in the NVO
> tunnel table be MPLSoGRE RFC 4023 and all other NVO tunnels are Non MPLS
> based.
>
>
>
> Many Thanks
>
>
>
> Gyan
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 4:10 PM Gyan Mishra  wrote=
:
>
>
>
> I support publication.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Gyan
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 1:41 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) <
> jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you Anoop. We will fix those in the next version.
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> *From: *Anoop Ghanwani 
> *Date: *Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:19 AM
> *To: *slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
> *Cc: *BESS , draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.or=
g
> , bess-chairs@ietf.org <
> bess-chairs@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon
>
> I support the publication of the draft as an RFC.
>
>
>
> Below are some minor editorial comments.
>
>
>
> Anoop
>
>
>
> =3D=3D
>
>
>
> Multiple sections
>
>
>
> Probably better to replace all uses of Ethernet Segment with ES rather
> than use them at random.
>
>
>
> Section 1
>
>
>
> Expand first use of "SID".
>
>
> will keeo following
> ->
> will keep following
>
>
>
> Section 2.2
>
>
> A value of 01
>    indicates the intend to use
> ->
> A value of 01
>    indicates the intent to use
>
>
> A value of 10 indicates the intend to
>    use
> ->
> A value of 10 indicates the intent to
>    use
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM  wrote:
>
> Hello Working Group,
>
>
>
> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon [1].
>
>
>
> This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.
>
>
>
> We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to
> this document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with
> IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>
> If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this document please
> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any
> relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without answers fro=
m
> all the Authors and Contributors.
>
>
>
> There is no IPR currently disclosed.
>
>
>
> If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please
> explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been
> disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>
>
>
> We are also polling for any existing implementation as per [2].
>
>
>
>     Thank you,
>
>     Stephane & Matthew
>
>
>
>     [1]
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon/
>
>     [2]
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
> --
>
> 
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
> --
>
> 
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
--=20



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

--000000000000f7b3aa05d82b90a9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Hi=C2=A0Jorge

<=
/div>
I agree that having the classification of all IP tun=
nel that convey Ethernet Payload not limited to RFC 8365 as NVO tunnels so =
all inclusive of MPLSoGRE, MPLSoUDP, VXLAN, VXLAN-GPE, GENEVE, NVGRE
<=
div dir=3D"auto">
So now you would have 2 catego=
ries the NVO category above and the transport category which would include =
SRv6, MPLS and SR-MPLS.

=
Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan<=
/div>

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 11:12 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) =
<jorge.rabadan@nokia.com&=
gt; wrote:











Hi Gyan,


=C2=A0


Thank you for your feedback and support.


=C2=A0


The document attempts to address all tunnels that can be used in EVPN Mul=
ti-homing PEs. In that respect, we should probably do a better job defining=
 what those tunnels are.


The division at the moment is: non-IP MPLS, NVO tunnels, SRv6.



    

  • Where NVO tunnels =
are, in general, IP tunnels that can convey an Ethernet payload =E2=80=93 t=
hat includes the ones in RFC8365, but not limited
 to the ones in RFC8365.


=C2=A0


In that sense, we can classify MPLSoGRE, MPLSoUDP, VXLAN, VXLAN-GPE, etc =
all as NVO tunnels.


=C2=A0


If you agree with the above, we can make the necessary edits to make the =
text consistent with that, as part of this WGLC.


=C2=A0


Thanks!


Jorge


<=
/u>


=C2=A0





From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>

Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 8:37 PM

To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>

Cc: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>, BESS <bess@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>=
;, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org>, slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <=
;slitkows.ietf=
@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf=
-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon








=C2=A0






Hi=C2=A0Jorge & Authors






=C2=A0






I support publication of this document and have a few comments =C2=A0=
thatT I think will help clarify and improve the document.






=C2=A0






The specification is clear on the solution with two new flags to indi=
cate SHT type ESI or Local Bias for NVO use cases.






=C2=A0






Table 1 lists different tunnel encapsulations.





=C2=A0






What I did notice is that VXLAN GPE is not included which should be.<=
u>






=C2=A0









=C2=A0






Also I noticed that RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is included and that is an NVO =
tunnel and is not listed in RFC 8365 which does have VXLAN GPE.






=C2=A0






IANA codepoints table=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Value=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 N=
ame


=C2=A0=C2=A0 -----=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ------=
------------------


=C2=A0=C2=A0 8=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 VXLAN Encapsulation<=
u style=3D"font-family:monospace">


=C2=A0=C2=A0 9=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NVGRE Encapsulation<=
u style=3D"font-family:monospace">


=C2=A0=C2=A0 10=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 MPLS Encapsulation


=C2=A0=C2=A0 11=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 MPLS in GRE Encapsulation<=
u style=3D"font-family:monospace">


=C2=A0=C2=A0 12=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 VXLAN GPE Encapsulation


=C2=A0






RFC 7510 MPLSoUDP is a not an NVO tunnel and is used for special use =
cases for UDP based ECMP or LAG.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






As well MPLS =C2=A0listed is =C2=A0transport technology and not NVO t=
unnels which MPLS based EVPN for NG L2 VPN RFC 7432 utilizes ESI label nati=
vely by default for PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay
 and is not an an NVO overlay.




=C2=A0






As well SRv6 =C2=A0listed is a=
 transport technology =C2=A0and not NVO tunnels which uses MPLS based EVPN =
equivalent SRv6 L2 service SID TLV is encoded
 in BGP Prefix SID attribute per SRv6 BGP based services draft and utilizes=
 ESI label natively by default for PE-CE AC MPLS based underlay and is not =
an an NVO overlay.






=C2=A0






MPLS and SRv6 should be in a s=
eparate table maybe as it=E2=80=99s not an an NVO tunnel or maybe mention t=
hat it=E2=80=99s a transport and can take advantage
 of SHT flag.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






I agree that SRv6 and MPLS tra=
nsports should be included so they can take advantage of the SHT flag.






=C2=A0






The verbiage MPLS based NVO tunnel is clear and that would be in the =
NVO tunnel table be MPLSoGRE RFC 4023 and all other NVO tunnels are Non MPL=
S based. =C2=A0=C2=A0






=C2=A0








Many Thanks=C2=A0










=C2=A0






Gyan










=C2=A0






On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 4:10 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:<=
u>








=C2=A0






I support publication.






=C2=A0






Thanks=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Gyan






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 1:41 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) =
<jorge.raba=
dan@nokia.com> wrote:











Thank you Anoop. We w=
ill fix those in the next version.=












Jorge



=C2=A0





From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>

Date: Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:19 AM

To: sli=
tkows.ietf@gmail.com <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Cc: BESS <bess=
@ietf.org>,
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org <dr=
aft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org>,
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org <bess-=
chairs@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [bess] WGLC, IPR and implementation poll for draft-ietf=
-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon=










I support the publication of the draft as an=
 RFC.







=C2=A0







Below are some minor editorial comments.<=
/u>







=C2=A0







Anoop







=C2=A0







=3D=3D







=C2=A0





Multiple sections





=C2=A0







Probably better to replace all uses of Ether=
net Segment with ES rather than use them at random.






=C2=A0







Section 1





=C2=A0







Expand first use of "SID".<=
u>







will keeo following

->

will keep following





=C2=A0







Section 2.2









A value of 01

=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the intend to use

->

A value of 01

=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates the intent to use







A value of 10 indicates the intend to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0use

->

A value of 10 indicates the intent to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0use







=C2=A0







On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:50 AM <slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om> wrote:










Hello Working Group,


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 


This email starts a two weeks Working Group L=
ast Call on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon [1].



=C2=A0


This poll runs until *the 9th of Feb*.=



=C2=A0


We are also polling for knowledge of any undi=
sclosed IPR that applies to this document, to ensure that IPR has been disc=
losed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378=
 for more details).


If you are listed as an Author or a Contribut=
or of this document please respond to this email and indicate whether or no=
t you are aware of any relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't pro=
gress without answers from all the Authors
 and Contributors.


=C2=A0


There is no IPR currently disclosed.


=C2=A0


If you are not listed as an Author or a Contr=
ibutor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR tha=
t has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.<=
/p>

=C2=A0


We are also polling for any existing implemen=
tation as per [2].



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thank you,<=
/u>


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Stephane & Matthew<=
/u>


=C2=A0



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0[1] 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon/=



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [2] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/cG3X1tTqb_vPC4rg56SEdkjqDpw<=
u>



=C2=A0







____________________________________________=
___

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess










_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess








--
























Gyan Mishra



Network Solutions =
Architect=C2=A0



Ema=
il 
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com



M 301 502-1347






=C2=A0






























--
























Gyan Mishra



Network Solutions =
Architect=C2=A0



Ema=
il 
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com



M 301 502-1347






=C2=A0

























-- 


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From: Warren Kumari 
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 19:37:29 -0600
Message-ID: 
To: Ron Bonica 
Cc: int-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org,  last-call@ietf.org, bess@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
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On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 11:20 AM Ron Bonica via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: Ron Bonica
> Review result: Not Ready
>
> I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.txt.
> These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Are=
a
> Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments
> just
> like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resol=
ve
> them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For
> more
> details on the INT Directorate, see
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/
> .
>
> Major issues:
>
> 1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field.
> This
> is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe
> we
> shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?
>
> 2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:
>
>   BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret,
>    on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, the part
>    of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label values
>    for MPLS-based services.  Implementations supporting this
>    specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advertisement
>    of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-service
>    basis.  The details of deployment designs and implementation options
>    are outside the scope of this document.
>
>
Much thanks to Ron for this OpsDir review -- I'd completely missed the
above points, and they are important to address.

W



> s/BGP speakers that do not support this specification/Legacy BGP
> implementations
>
> It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:
>
> - the SHOULD becomes a MUST
> - the mechanism is described in this document
>
> 3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS
>
>
>
> --
> last-call mailing list
> last-call@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call
>


--=20
The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by =
the
complexities of his own making.
  -- E. W. Dijkstra

--000000000000590ba405d82cd194
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 11:20 AM Ron =
Bonica via Datatracker <noreply@ietf=
.org> wrote:
Reviewer: Ron Bonica

Review result: Not Ready



I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services=
.txt.

These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Area<=
br>
Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments jus=
t

like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resolve=


them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For m=
ore

details on the INT Directorate, see

https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/=


<https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/=
>.



Major issues:



1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. T=
his

is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe w=
e

shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?



2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:



=C2=A0 BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret=
,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, th=
e part

=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label v=
alues

=C2=A0 =C2=A0for MPLS-based services.=C2=A0 Implementations supporting this=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advert=
isement

=C2=A0 =C2=A0of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-ser=
vice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0basis.=C2=A0 The details of deployment designs and implementat=
ion options

=C2=A0 =C2=A0are outside the scope of this document.



Much thanks to Ron for this OpsDir rev=
iew -- I'd completely missed the above points, and they are important t=
o address.

W

=C2=A0
=


s/BGP speakers that do not support this specification/Legacy BGP implementa=
tions



It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:



- the SHOULD becomes a MUST

- the mechanism is described in this document



3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS







-- 

last-call mailing list

last-call@ietf.org<=
/a>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call



-- 
The computing scientist=E2=80=
=99s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his ow=
n making. 
=C2=A0 -- E. W. Dijkstra


--000000000000590ba405d82cd194--


From nobody Wed Feb 16 22:03:17 2022
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have little to add to the DISCUSSes held by others beyond my support.

However, I would like to discuss having SRv6 control plane information, i.e.
SIDs and their behaviours etc., being isolated by associating it with
a separate SAFI.  Any other protocol element that needs to refer to such
information can make reference to it through context-appropriate extensions.

{AFI=IPv6, SAFI=unicast} is a valid way to advertise an SRv6 locator prefix,
for example, as that's just IPv6 forwarding information.  If SRv6-specific
information where separately advertised as {AFI=IPv6, SAFI=SRv6} then I
suspect it would be simpler to filter out that information, detect leaks,
and generally help the SRv6 domain fail closed more easily.

But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be somehow worse.






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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to double-check: Are we okay with having seven authors on this document
when the guidelines specify a limit of five?




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From nobody Wed Feb 16 22:48:38 2022
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : IGMP and MLD Proxy for EVPN
        Authors         : Ali Sajassi
                          Samir Thoria
                          Mankamana Mishra
                          John Drake
                          Wen Lin
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-17.txt
	Pages           : 35
	Date            : 2022-02-16

Abstract:
   This document describes how to support efficiently endpoints running
   IGMP(Internet Group Management Protocol) or MLD (Multicast Listener
   Discovery) for the multicast services over an EVPN network by
   incorporating IGMP/MLD proxy procedures on EVPN (Ethernet VPN) PEs.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-17

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-17


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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From: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" 
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , The IESG 
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
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Subject: Re: [bess]  =?windows-1252?q?=C9ric_Vyncke=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-?= =?windows-1252?q?bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMME?= =?windows-1252?q?NT=29?=
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--_000_BYAPR11MB2725492552ADBC75DF1C3693DF369BYAPR11MB2725namp_
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Hi Eric,
Thanks, uploaded the new version addressing your comment.

Pending:

  1.  About number restarting =96 There was comment by Alvaro where he want=
ed these numbers to be restarting to differentiate sender and receiver proc=
essing
EV> I am sure that Alvaro will not mind have some text, even just 4 words, =
separating the sender / receiver processing

MM : It was not my day to get this logic work in XML. Will figure out some =
expert to enter section there to articulate two different sub topic (sender=
 side processing and receiving side processing )

Rest other comment have been addressed.

Mankamana


From: Eric Vyncke (evyncke) 
Date: Friday, February 11, 2022 at 5:39 AM
To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) , The IESG 
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org , bess-chairs@ietf.org , bess@iet=
f.org , slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
Subject: Re: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy=
-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Hello Mankamana,

Thanks for your reply, see below for EV> (I have elided the original DISCUS=
S part). As soon as a revised I-D is uploaded, then I am clearing my DISCUS=
S.

Regards

-=E9ric


From: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" 
Date: Friday, 11 February 2022 at 00:33
To: Eric Vyncke , The IESG 
Cc: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bes=
s@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
Subject: Re: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy=
-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Hi Eric,
Thanks for comment.


  1.  For text which talks about how to decode BGP routes back , will it be=
 ok to have common section after BPG encoding (https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16#section-9) ? which talks a=
bout fact that receiving PE need to decode it back and consider it as IGMP =
membership request and process it ?
EV> adding sections 9.1.3 / 9.2.3 / 9.3.3 "reconstructing the MLD/IGMP" per=
 route type would be preferred of course, but a common subsection on recons=
truction either after 9.3 (preferred) or after 9.1 would be OK (in the sens=
e that it addresses my DISCUSS but is less easy for the readers/implementer=
s)


  1.  About number restarting =96 There was comment by Alvaro where he want=
ed these numbers to be restarting to differentiate sender and receiver proc=
essing
EV> I am sure that Alvaro will not mind have some text, even just 4 words, =
separating the sender / receiver processing


  1.  SMET, I would take care of it in terminology.
EV> thanks



--_000_BYAPR11MB2725492552ADBC75DF1C3693DF369BYAPR11MB2725namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Eric, 


Thanks, uploaded the new version addressing your com=
ment. 



 


Pending: 


    

  1. About number restarting =96 There was comment by Alvaro where he want=
ed these numbers to be restarting to differentiate sender and receiver proc=
essing



EV> I am sure that Alvaro will not mind have some=
 text, even just 4 words, separating the sender / receiver processing<=
/o:p>


 


M=
M : It was not my day to get this logic work in XML. Will figure out some e=
xpert to enter section there to articulate two different sub topic (sender =
side processing and receiving side processing
 )


 


Rest other comment have been addressed. <=
/p>

 


Mankamana 


 


 




From:
Eric Vyncke (evynck=
e) <evyncke@cisco.com>

Date: Friday, February 11, 2022 at 5:39 AM

To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <mankamis@cisco.com>, The IESG=
 <iesg@ietf.org>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess=
-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@iet=
f.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <=
;slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-ml=
d-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




Hello Mankamana,=



 


Thanks for your reply, see below for EV> (I have =
elided the original DISCUSS part). As soon as a revised I-D is uploaded, th=
en I am clearing my DISCUSS.


 


Regards


 


-=E9ric


 


 




From=
: "Mankamana M=
ishra (mankamis)" <mankamis@cisco.com>

Date: Friday, 11 February 2022 at 00:33

To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.or=
g>

Cc: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" <dra=
ft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org&q=
uot; <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.=
org>, "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>=
;

Subject: Re: =C9ric Vyncke's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-ml=
d-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






 




Hi Eric,


Thanks for comment. 


 


    

  1. For text which talks about how to decode BGP routes back , will it be=
 ok to have common section after BPG encoding (http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16#se=
ction-9)
 ? which talks about fact that receiving PE need to decode it back and cons=
ider it as IGMP membership request and process it ?



EV> adding sections 9.1.3 / 9.2.3 / 9.3.3 "r=
econstructing the MLD/IGMP" per route type would be preferred of cours=
e, but a common subsection on reconstruction either after 9.3 (preferred) o=
r after 9.1 would be OK (in the sense that it addresses
 my DISCUSS but is less easy for the readers/implementers)


 


    

  1. About number restarting =96 There was comment by Alvaro where he want=
ed these numbers to be restarting to differentiate sender and receiver proc=
essing



EV> I am sure that Alvaro will not mind have some=
 text, even just 4 words, separating the sender / receiver processing<=
/o:p>


 


    

  1. SMET, I would take care of it in terminology.



EV> thanks


 


 






--_000_BYAPR11MB2725492552ADBC75DF1C3693DF369BYAPR11MB2725namp_--


From nobody Wed Feb 16 22:52:03 2022
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Subject: Re: [bess]  =?utf-8?q?John_Scudder=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-bess-srv?= =?utf-8?q?6-services-11=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi,
Ron and John both mentioned that leveraging the existing AFI/SAFI may cause misunderstanding of the SRv6 service routes.
We encountered this problem during implementation and submitted a draft talking about this.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lz-bess-srv6-service-capability-02
One solution(if new AFI/SAFI is not defined) we proposed in the draft is to define a new BGP capability code for for SRv6-based BGP service capability, and then SRv6 service routes would only be exchanged between devices that support it based on this capability.
Do you think this is a possible solution?

Regards,
Yao


From nobody Wed Feb 16 23:02:10 2022
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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-18.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : IGMP and MLD Proxy for EVPN
        Authors         : Ali Sajassi
                          Samir Thoria
                          Mankamana Mishra
                          John Drake
                          Wen Lin
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-18.txt
	Pages           : 36
	Date            : 2022-02-16

Abstract:
   This document describes how to support efficiently endpoints running
   IGMP(Internet Group Management Protocol) or MLD (Multicast Listener
   Discovery) for the multicast services over an EVPN network by
   incorporating IGMP/MLD proxy procedures on EVPN (Ethernet VPN) PEs.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-18

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-18


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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From: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" 
To: John E Drake , Benjamin Kaduk 
CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" 
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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References: <163477731824.13216.11701195886404718166@ietfa.amsl.com>  <20211022020803.GT88762@kduck.mit.edu>  <20220205010845.GZ11486@mit.edu>   
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Subject: Re: [bess] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Thanks john for providing input. New version of draft accommodated all of t=
hese changes.

Mankamana

From: John E Drake 
Date: Friday, February 11, 2022 at 8:13 AM
To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) , Benjamin Kaduk 
Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org =
, bess-chairs@ietf.org , bess@ietf.org , slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-prox=
y-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Hi,

Here are my proposed changes:

8.  Selective Multicast Procedures for IR tunnels

   If an ingress PE uses ingress replication, then for a given (x,G)
   group in a given BD:

   1.  It sends (x,G) traffic to the set of PEs not supporting IGMP
       Proxy.  This set consists of any PE that has advertised an
       Inclusive Multicast Tag route for the BD without the "IGMP Proxy
       Support" flag.

*****JD  This set consists of any PE that has advertised an IMET route for =
the BD
without a  Multicast Flags extended community or with a Multicast Flags ext=
ended
community in which neither the IGMP Proxy support nor the  MLD Proxy suppor=
t
flags are set.

   2.  It sends (x,G) traffic to the set of PEs supporting IGMP Proxy
       and having listeners for that (x,G) group in that BD.  This set
       consists of any PE that has advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag
       route for the BD with the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag and that has
       advertised a SMET route for that (x,G) group in that BD.

*****JD  This set consists of any PE that has advertised an IMET route for =
the BD
with a Multicast Flags extended community in which the IGMP Proxy support a=
nd/or
the  MLD Proxy support flags are set and that has advertised a SMET route f=
or that (x,G)
group in that BD.

   If an ingress PE's Selective P-Tunnel for a given BD uses P2MP and
   all of the PEs in the BD support that tunnel type and IGMP proxy,

*****JD and IGMP and/or MLD proxy,

   then for a given (x,G) group in a given BD it sends (x,G) traffic
   using the Selective P-Tunnel for that (x,G) group in that BD.  This
   tunnel includes those PEs that have advertised a SMET route for that
   (x,G) group on that BD (for Selective P-tunnel) but it may include
   other PEs as well (for Aggregate Selective P-tunnel).

9.4.  Multicast Flags Extended Community

   The 'Multicast Flags' extended community is a new EVPN extended
   community.  EVPN extended communities are transitive extended
   communities with a Type field value of 6.  IANA will assign a Sub-
   Type from the 'EVPN Extended Community Sub-Types' registry.

   A PE that supports IGMP proxy on a given BD MUST attach this extended
   community to the Inclusive Multicast Ethernet Tag (IMET) route it
   advertises for that BD and it MUST set the IGMP Proxy Support flag to
   1.  Note that an [RFC7432=
] compliant PE will not advertise this
   extended community so its absence indicates that the advertising PE
   does not support IGMP Proxy.

*****JD     A PE that supports IGMP and/or MLD Proxy on a given BD
MUST attach this extended community to the IMET route it advertises
advertises for that BD and it MUST set the IGMP and/or MLD Proxy
Support flags to 1.  Note that an [RFC7432] compliant PE will not advertise this
extended community so its absence indicates that the advertising PE
does not support either IGMP or MLD Proxy.


Yours Irrespectively,

John



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) 
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 11:02 AM
To: John E Drake ; Benjamin Kaduk 
Cc: The IESG ; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;=
 bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-prox=
y-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Hi Ben,
Making the changes as you suggested. Attached diff which I would be pushing=
 today.

One question

> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, but we actually=
 have
> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support" flags.

Does IGMP or MLD Proxy Support not mean that either of them can be set / un=
set. Any thing specific you want to be added here ?

Mankamana

From: John E Drake >
Date: Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:17 AM
To: Benjamin Kaduk >
Cc: The IESG >, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-ig=
mp-mld-proxy@ietf.org =
>, bess-chairs@ietf.org=
 >, bess@ietf.org >, slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om >
Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-prox=
y-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Ben,

Comments inline below.

Yours Irrespectively,

John


Juniper Business Use Only

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Kaduk >
> Sent: Friday, February 4, 2022 8:09 PM
> To: John E Drake >
> Cc: The IESG >; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pr=
oxy-
> 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> My apologies for taking a few weeks to reply; I was sick when this came i=
n and a
> bunch of stuff piled up, which has taken some time to get back to.
> I can only take a small amount of solace by noting that at least this is =
not the
> last DISCUSS blocking the document from approval.
>
> Inline...
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 03:28:11PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Benjamin Kaduk >
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 10:08 PM
> > > To: John E Drake >
> > > Cc: The IESG >;
> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> > > Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on
> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-
> > > 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > >
> > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > Thanks for helping clarify.  Also inline.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 06:35:43PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:
> > > > Ben,
> > > >
> > > > Comments inline.
> > > >
> > > > Yours Irrespectively,
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Juniper Business Use Only
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker >
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 8:49 PM
> > > > > To: The IESG >
> > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;
> > > > > bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org<=
mailto:bess@ietf.org>; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
> > > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on
> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-
> > > 13:
> > > > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > > > >
> > > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: Discuss
> > > > >
> > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
> > > > > to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel
> > > > > free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please refer to
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-i<=
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/blog/handling-i>
> > > > > esg-
> > > > > ballot-
> > > > > positions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSRrxQJ1U$
> > > > > for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT
> > > positions.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found her=
e:
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra<=
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra>
> > > > > ft-i
> > > > > etf-bess-
> > > > > evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSbOB2k3E$
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > (1) Apparently each PE is supposed to store version flags for
> > > > > each other PE in the EVI (I guess on a per-route basis?), but
> > > > > this is mentioned just once, in passing, in step 2 of the Leave
> > > > > Group procedures in
> > > =A74.1.2.
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  The first hop PE keeps track of which IGMP or MLD versions
> > > > are active on
> > > the ESes to which it is attached and announces this via the BGP SMET =
route.
> > >
> > > Yes.  Should this statement (or something like it) be in the document=
 itself?
> > > (Where?)
> >
> > [JD] Would you please review sections 4 and 5 of the -16
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_GYAo7RM$ ,
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i=
etf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-5__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_8b_wkkE$ ) and see if they are is
> clear enough?
>
> You ask if they are "clear enough?"  The changes to clarify which steps a=
re done
> by which PEs are quite helpful, and thank you for that.  But they are not=
 really
> addressing the issue that was bothering me.  Nevertheless, in light of th=
is discuss
> point being raised in order to have a conversation, I guess they are clea=
r
> *enough*, but just barely, and there's plenty of room to make them more c=
lear.
>
> In short, what bothers me here is that we say something like "compare ...
> with its per-PE stored version flags", but we never concretely say "store=
 some
> per-PE version flags" anywhere.  Now, this is BGP, so of course you're st=
oring
> what you got and from whom, but writing it in the way it's currently stat=
ed
> makes the reader work pretty hard to figure out what's going on.  If we s=
aid
> something like (with the caveat that I am surely using the wrong terminol=
ogy)
> "compare ... with the version flags from the corresponding saved EVPN SME=
T
> route in the BGP session with this PE", that would be very clear about wh=
at was
> saved and why.
>
> We could also go further and talk about the information model concretely,=
 a la:
>
> % The goal of IGMP and MLD proxying is to make the EVPN behave seamlessly
> for % the tenant systems with respect to multicast operations, while usin=
g a
> more % efficient delivery system for signaling and delivery across the VP=
N.
> % Accordingly, group state must be tracked synchronously among the PEs %
> serving the VPN, with join and leave events propagated to the peer PEs, a=
nd %
> each PE tracking the state of each of its peer PEs with respect whether %=
 there
> are locally attached group members (and in some cases, senders), what %
> version(s) of IGMP/MLD are in use for those locally attached group member=
s, %
> etc.  In order to perform this translation, each PE acts as an IGMP route=
r % for
> the locally attached domain, and maintains the requisite state on % local=
ly
> attached nodes, sends periodic membership queries, etc.  The role % of EV=
PN
> SMET route propagation is to ensure that each PE's local state is % propa=
gated
> to the other PEs so that they share a consistent view of the % overall IG=
MP
> Membership Request and Leave Group state.  It is important to % note that=
 the
> need to keep such local state can be triggered by either % local IGMP tra=
ffic or
> BGP EVPN signaling.  In most cases a local IGMP event % will need to be s=
ignaled
> over EVPN, though state initiated by received EVPN % traffic will not alw=
ays
> need to be relayed to the locally attached domain.

[JD]  We can add this text to section 4.
>
> > >
> > > > > Similarly, =A76.1 defines, somewhat in passing, some "local IGMP
> > > > > Membership Request (x,G) state" that must be maintained in some c=
ases.
> > > > > Let's discuss whether it's appropriate/useful to have a general
> > > > > introductory section that covers what new state PEs are expected
> > > > > to retain as part of supporting IGMP/MLD proxying.  Maybe the
> > > > > answer is "no", but I would like to have the conversation.
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  Section 6 generalizes the notion of a first hop PE to be the
> > > > set of multi-
> > > homed PEs attached to a given ES.  Section 6
> > > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d<=
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d>
> > > raft-ietf-
> > > bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > gk!WAMtLTp8pHMhjeyfDY13FOVPAqTuQaEqcCu8hQOf-
> > > GMscsBgaRFDzERgy6ZEfS8$ ) explains why the multi-homed PEs need to
> > > synchronize state and section 6.1 explains what is that state:
> > >
> > > Rereading it, it does explain the need for state synchronization;
> > > thanks for pointing that out.  However, it does not appear to use or
> > > introduce the specific term that the subsequent subsections are
> > > using to refer to that state.  It seems like it could be useful to
> > > have a defined term for this state, to help readers make the
> > > connection between the need to track the state and where that state i=
s
> referenced in the subsequent procedures.
> > >
> > > >  If the PE doesn't already have local IGMP Membership Request
> > > > (x,G) state for
> > > that BD on that ES, it MUST instantiate local IGMP Membership
> > > Request (x,G) state and MUST advertise a BGP IGMP Join Synch route
> > > for that (ES,BD).  Local IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state refers
> > > to IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state that is created as a result
> > > of processing an IGMP Membership Report for (x,G).
> > > >
> > > > i.e., IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state is the union of the
> > > > local IGMP Join
> > > (x,G) state and the installed IGMP Join Synch route.
> > >
> > > This would be a great start to a definition for such a defined term
> > > that I propose above.
> >
> > [JD]  Would you please review section 6 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_dTYpjPA$ ) and see if it is clear
> enough?
>
> Even if you don't want to use the "concrete information model" approach I
> outline above, I think this text would be much clearer with the following=
 change
> in =A76:
>
> OLD:
>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coordinate IGMP
>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, where x may be either
>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES. [...]
>
> NEW:
>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coordinate IGMP
>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, where x may be either
>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES.  Each PE has a
>    local copy of that state, and the EVPN signaling serves to synchronize
>    state across PEs.

[JD]  This is fine.

>
> But is it "clear enough" as-is?  Again, just barely, and I will demote th=
is topic to a
> COMMENT-level remark.
>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > (2) I am not sure if the body text is consistent with what is
> > > > > being allocated from IANA.  =A78 describes PEs that are not using
> > > > > ingress replication as being identifiable as """any PE that has
> > > > > advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag route for the BD without
> > > > > the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag""", but the IANA considerations
> > > > > allocate flags for both IGMP Proxy Support and MLD Proxy
> > > > > Support.  Is a PE that advertises MLD Proxy Support but not IGMP
> > > > > Proxy Support to be treated as
> > > not using ingress replication, as the literal interpretation of this
> > > text would require?
> > > > > Similarly, =A79.2.1 and =A79.3.1 include restrictions on indicati=
on
> > > > > of support for "IGMP Proxy" with no mention of "MLD Proxy".
> > > >
> > > > [JD]  It should be either IGMP or MLD Proxy Support
> > >
> > > Yes.  Hopefully this is easy to insert into the document itself.
> >
> > [JD]  Would you please review sections 8 and 9.4 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
ietf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-8__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-
> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_U63FOVo$ , and
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i=
etf-
> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-9.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-
> gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_QXUa-Og$ )
> and see if they are is clear enough?
>
> I think they are still problematic in this regard.
>
> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, but we actually=
 have
> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support" flags.
[
JD]  We will fix this.

>
> The =A79.2.1 and 9.3.1 text still has discussion relating to "indicate th=
at it
> supports" proxying of one or the other multicast protocols, and =A79.4 ha=
s a
> paragraph that I paraphrase as "if it supports IGMP proxy, it MUST set th=
e IGMP
> proxy flag to 1".  But the disclaimer in =A73 is specifically worded to o=
nly cover
> "IGMP Membership Report" as including MLD Membership Report, and to have
> version genericity within IGMP and within MLD.  Being specific to the
> Membership Report in this way means that it does *not* come into effect f=
or
> discussions of "support for IGMP proxy" or "support for MLD proxy", which=
 is
> what seems problematic to me, here.
>
> It seems like it ought to be pretty straightforward to craft some text th=
at
> expands the disclaimer in =A73 to cover things like "Likewise, when there=
 is text
> considering whether a PE indicates support for IGMP proxying, the
> corresponding behavior has a natural analogue for indication of support f=
or
> MLD proxying, and the analogous requirements apply as well".

[JD]  We will add this.

>
> -Ben
>
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > >
> > > Ben
> > >
> > > > > I do see that there is a generic disclaimer at the end of
> > > > > Section 3 but the way it is written does not actually seem to cov=
er this
> usage.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > COMMENT:
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > As one of the directorate reviewers noted (and =C9ric promoted to
> > > > > a DISCUSS), this document does not really give any specific
> > > > > description of how an EVPN PE should construct outgoing IGMP/MLD
> > > > > messages to send out on its ACs as a result of receiving EVP
> > > > > information over BGP.  From a brief examination of the relevant
> > > > > IGMP messages, it seems that the EVPN messages might actually
> > > > > contain information to populate literally all the IGMP fields,
> > > > > but this is probably worth mentioning explicitly.  In
> > > > > particular, guidance might be interesting for
> > > > > (e.g.) IGMPv3, that lets multiple Group Records be included in a
> > > > > single Membership Report.
> > > > > (Pedantically, such IGMPv3 multiplexing might also require
> > > > > phrasing changes for the reverse process, taking IGMP and
> > > > > constructing EVPN routes, since we refer to (e.g) "the Group
> > > > > address of the IGMP Membership Report" in places, and that is
> > > > > not a well-defined concept in the absence of some text
> > > > > indicating group-by- group processing.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Abstract
> > > > >
> > > > >    This document describes how to support efficiently endpoints r=
unning
> > > > >    IGMP for the above services over an EVPN network by incorporat=
ing
> > > > >    IGMP proxy procedures on EVPN PEs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see Lars already noted the dangling reference to "above service=
s".
> > > > > That really needs to be fixed before approval, and even looking
> > > > > at the diff from -
> > > > > 12 to -13 does not give me a clear picture of what to suggest as =
a
> rewrite.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 1
> > > > >
> > > > > I strongly suggest mentioning and referencing some of the core
> > > > > technologies that readers are assumed to be familiar with (e.g.,
> > > > > RFC
> > > > > 7432 for EVPN, RFC 6514 for various tunnel types including
> > > > > Ingress
> > > Replication).
> > > > > At present the document is quite unfriendly to a reader from an
> > > > > outside field, who has little to no indication as to what
> > > > > background material is required in order to be able to make sense=
 of this
> document.
> > > > >
> > > > >    In DC applications, a point of delivery (POD) can consist of
> > > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > > Data Center is not marked as "well-known" at
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-
> > > > > editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt__;!!NEt6yMaO-
> > > > >
> > >
> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSLlJ3XlU$
> > > > > and needs to be expanded on first use.
> > > > >
> > > > >    2.  Distributed anycast multicast proxy: it is desirable for t=
he EVPN
> > > > >        network to act as a distributed anycast multicast router
> > > > > with
> > > > >
> > > > > I honestly don't know what a "distributed anycast multicast route=
r"
> > > > > is supposed to be.  Google finds only a handful of instances of
> > > > > that
> > > > > (quoted) phrase, most of which can be traced back to this documen=
t.
> > > > > There is a similar phrase in =A74.2 that perhaps clarifies that
> > > > > the collection of EVPN PEs is intended to function as a
> > > > > distributed multicast router (that is perhaps in some sense trans=
parent to
> the CEs).
> > > > > But how does the "anycast" part come into play?  How is the
> > > > > anycast IP address assigned, and which protocol messages is it co=
nveyed
> in?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 3
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest adding SMET to the terminology listed here.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  Ethernet Segment (ES): When a customer site (device or netw=
ork) is
> > > > >       connected to one or more PEs via a set of Ethernet links.
> > > > >
> > > > > That looks like an extremely unconventional definition for
> > > > > "Ethernet
> > > Segment".
> > > > >
> > > > >    Membership Report too.  Similarly, text for IGMPv2 applies to =
MLDv1
> > > > >    and text for IGMPv3 applies to MLDv2.  IGMP / MLD version enco=
ding in
> > > > >    BGP update is stated in Section 9
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest stating explicitly that this equivalence is possible
> > > > > because the indicated versions provide analogous functionality
> > > > > for IPv4 and
> > > IPv6, respectively.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > >        is considered as a new BGP route advertisement.  When diff=
erent
> > > > >        version of IGMP join are received, final state MUST be as =
per
> > > > >        section 5.1 of [RFC3376].  At the end of route processing =
local
> > > > >        and remote group record state MUST be as per section 5.1 o=
f
> > > > >        [RFC3376].
> > > > >
> > > > > I interpret "different version of IGMP join" as "join messages
> > > > > from different IGMP protocol versions", which makes this
> > > > > reference to RFC
> > > > > 3376 make no sense to me -- the referenced section does not talk
> > > > > about multiple protocol versions at all.  Please clarify what
> > > > > behavior from RFC 3376 is being referenced.
> > > > >
> > > > >        logged.  If the v3 flag is set (in addition to v2), then t=
he IE
> > > > >        flag MUST indicate "exclude".  If not, then an error SHOUL=
D be
> > > > >        logged.  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > It's great to say that this is an error condition and should be l=
ogged.
> > > > > What does the recipient actually do while processing the message?
> > > > > An RFC 7606 named behavior would be nice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.2
> > > > >
> > > > >    As mentioned in the previous sections, each PE MUST have proxy
> > > > >    querier functionality for the following reasons:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not really sure which previous mentions this is supposed to r=
efer to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 6.2.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to confirm: the PE receiving a BGP Leave Synch route does
> > > > > *not* produce local IGMP Query messages, on the assumption that
> > > > > the PE that did receive the Leave locally has already done so?
> > > > > (I don't think this necessarily needs to be written out in the
> > > > > document itself; I just want to confirm my understanding.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 6.3
> > > > >
> > > > >    A PE which has received an IGMP Membership Request would have
> synced
> > > > >    the IGMP Join by the procedure defined in section 6.1.  If a P=
E with
> > > > >    local join state goes down or the PE to CE link goes down, it =
would
> > > > >    lead to a mass withdraw of multicast routes.  Remote PEs (PEs
> > > > > where
> > > > >
> > > > > Can we have greater clarity on "would lead to"?  Are there
> > > > > actually routes that will be withdrawn and we are just ignoring
> > > > > the consequences of that for the purposes of local state, using
> > > > > some heuristic (as mentioned later) for detecting whether a
> > > > > mass-withdraw is due to a failure at a peer?  Or is the mass
> > > > > withdraw a hypothetical scenario
> > > that the procedures described here fully avoid?
> > > > >
> > > > >    these routes were remote IGMP Joins) SHOULD NOT remove the sta=
te
> > > > >    immediately; instead General Query SHOULD be generated to refr=
esh
> the
> > > > >    states.  There are several ways to detect failure at a peer, e=
.g.
> > > > >    using IGP next hop tracking or ES route withdraw.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does each PE initiate the General Query, in this scenario?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 7
> > > > >
> > > > >    Note that to facilitate state synchronization after failover, =
the PEs
> > > > >    attached to a multihomed ES operating in Single-Active redunda=
ncy
> > > > >    mode SHOULD also coordinate IGMP Join (x,G) state.  In this
> > > > > case all
> > > > >
> > > > > What are the drawbacks of not performing such synchronization?
> > > > > Alternately, in what cases does it make sense to not perform
> > > > > synchronization (so that the guidance is SHOULD rather than MUST)=
?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1
> > > > >
> > > > > It might be nice to mention that the length fields are measured
> > > > > in bits here in this section, where the NLRI format is laid out,
> > > > > in addition to
> > > > > =A79.1.1 where the procedures for constructing it are laid out.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  If route is used for IPv6 (MLD) then bit 7 indicates suppor=
t for
> > > > >       MLD version 1.  The second least significant bit, bit 6
> > > > > indicates
> > > > >
> > > > > How does the receiver know if the route is being used for IPv6?
> > > > > (Also applies in =A79.2, 9.3)
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there any requirement for consistency about using IPv4 vs
> > > > > IPv6 addresses in all three address fields?  The description
> > > > > given here would seem to allow mixing address families, but I
> > > > > don't really expect that to
> > > work in practice.
> > > > >
> > > > >    version and any source filtering for a given group membership.=
  All
> > > > >    EVPN SMET routes are announced with per- EVI Route Target exte=
nded
> > > > >    communities.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there a good reference for discussion of these associated ECs?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.1.2
> > > > >
> > > > >    PE2 to receive multicast traffic.  In this case PE2 MUST origi=
nate a
> > > > >    (*,*) SMET route to receive all of the multicast traffic in th=
e EVPN
> > > > >    domain.  To generate Wildcards (*,*) routes, the procedure fro=
m
> > > > >    [RFC6625] SHOULD be used.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the PE expected to identify this case based on protocol
> > > > > messages received at runtime (e.g., any PIM at all), or is this e=
xternal
> configuration?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 9.3.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    Maximum Response Time is value to be used while sending query =
as
> > > > >    defined in [RFC2236]
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it actually right to describe this as "while sending query
> > > > > [messages]"?  My understanding is that a PE receiving this route
> > > > > over BGP would in fact *not* actually send IGMP Query messages,
> > > > > but simply use the time to set a timer and potentially clear up
> > > > > state if certain conditions are met at the end of the period in q=
uestion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 10
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to confirm my understanding here: in the immediate leave
> > > > > case, the Leave Synch route will be advertised just for the
> > > > > "delta" period of time described in
> > > > > =A76.2 and then withdrawn?
> > > > >
> > > > >    IGMP MAY be configured with immediate leave option.  This
> > > > > allows the
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there a suitable reference for "immediate leave"?  I did not
> > > > > see much relevant in RFCs 2236 and 3376.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 12
> > > > >
> > > > > I support Roman's point about detailing which aspects are
> > > > > covered in which referenced RFCs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also noted that the "delta" value used in the Last Member
> > > > > Query process must be configured on each node, and to the same va=
lue.
> > > > > Such requirement for identical configuration opens up the chance
> > > > > for skew, and sometimes any such skew is security-relevant and
> > > > > must be documented in the security considerations.  However, I'm
> > > > > not sure that that's the case, here, as it seems that skew would
> > > > > mostly only serve to cause a brief "blip" where a PE drops its
> > > > > group state only to recreate it when a report shows up later.
> > > > > Is there a scenario where the skew goes the other way, and a PE
> > > > > leaves group state in place
> > > indefinitely that should have been dropped?
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 16.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Since we only reference RFC 4684 to say that its procedures are
> > > > > not applicable to what we describe, it seems like it could be
> > > > > classified as only an informative reference.
> > > > >
> > > > > NITS
> > > > >
> > > > > We seem quite inconsistent about whether we write "BCP Leave
> > > > > Synch route" or "IGMP Leave Synch route" (but I believe these
> > > > > are both supposed to be the same thing).
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 1
> > > > >
> > > > >    communication and orchestration.  However, EVPN is used as sta=
ndard
> > > > >    way of inter-POD communication for both intra-DC and
> > > > > inter-DC.  A
> > > > >
> > > > > intra-DC and inter-DC are both adjectives that need to modify som=
e
> noun.
> > > > > Please supply such a noun (e.g., "traffic").
> > > > >
> > > > >    These hosts express their interests in multicast groups on a g=
iven
> > > > >    subnet/VLAN by sending IGMP Membership Reports (Joins) for the=
ir
> > > > >    interested multicast group(s).  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that this phrase "IGMP Membership Reports (Joins)" is
> > > > > intended to serve some cross-protocol clarification role (e.g.,
> > > > > "Join" is used by
> > > > > IGMPv3 and MLD but not IGMPv2).  Since this is the first place
> > > > > where we use that formulation, some additional text to clarify
> > > > > the shorthand seems
> > > in order.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 3
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  BD: Broadcast Domain.  As per [RFC7432], an EVI consists of=
 a
> > > > >       single or multiple BDs.  In case of VLAN-bundle and
> > > > > VLAN-aware
> > > > >
> > > > > RFC 7432 spells "VLAN Bundle" with no hyphen.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  Single-Active Redundancy Mode: When only a single PE, among=
 all
> > > > >       the PEs attached to an Ethernet segment, is allowed to forw=
ard
> > > > >       traffic to/from that Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, the=
n the
> > > > >       Ethernet segment is defined to be operating in Single-Activ=
e
> > > > >       redundancy mode.
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  All-Active Redundancy Mode: When all PEs attached to an Eth=
ernet
> > > > >       segment are allowed to forward known unicast traffic to/fro=
m that
> > > > >       Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, then the Ethernet segmen=
t is
> > > > >       defined to be operating in All-Active redundancy mode.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it important that the second definition only covers "unicast t=
raffic"
> > > > > but the former uses the unqualified term "traffic"?
> > > > >
> > > > >    o  OIF: Outgoing Interface for multicast.  It can be physical
> > > > >       interface, virtual interface or tunnel.
> > > > >
> > > > > s/physical/a physical/
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4
> > > > >
> > > > >    The IGMP Proxy mechanism is used to reduce the flooding of IGM=
P
> > > > >    messages over an EVPN network similar to ARP proxy used in
> > > > > reducing
> > > > >
> > > > > "similarly to how ARP proxy is used"
> > > > >
> > > > >    speakers.  The information is again translated back to IGMP me=
ssage
> > > > >    at the recipient EVPN speaker.  Thus it helps create an IGMP
> > > > > overlay
> > > > >
> > > > > "IGMP messages" plural, to match the previous sentence.
> > > > >
> > > > > Section 4.1.1
> > > > >
> > > > >    1.  When the first hop PE receives several IGMP Membership Rep=
orts
> > > > >        (Joins), belonging to the same IGMP version, from differen=
t
> > > > >        attached hosts for the same (*,G) or (S,G), it SHOULD send=
 a
> > > > >        single BGP message corresponding to the very first IGMP
> > > > >        Membership Request (BGP update as soon as possible) for th=
at
> > > > >        (*,G) or (S,G).  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > What is an "IGMP Membership Request"?  Is this just a typo for Re=
port?
> > > > >
> > > > >                         This is because BGP is a stateful protoco=
l and
> > > > >        no further transmission of the same report is needed.  If =
the
> > > > >        IGMP Membership Request is for (*,G), then multicast group
> > > > >        address MUST be sent along with the corresponding version =
flag
> > > > >        (v2 or v3) set.  [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > (ditto)
> > > > >
> > > > >                                    If the IGMP Join is for (S,G),=
 then
> > > > >        besides setting multicast group address along with the ver=
sion
> > > > >        flag v3, the source IP address and the IE flag MUST be set

--_000_BYAPR11MB2725F3985E566806134DE2F0DF369BYAPR11MB2725namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Thanks john for providing input. New version of draf=
t accommodated all of these changes.



 


Mankamana 


 




From:
John E Drake <jd=
rake@juniper.net>

Date: Friday, February 11, 2022 at 8:13 AM

To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <mankamis@cisco.com>, Benjamin=
 Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>

Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pr=
oxy@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org>, bess-cha=
irs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org&=
gt;, slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-m=
ld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




Hi,


 


Here are my proposed changes:


 


8.  Selective Multi=
cast Procedures for IR tunnels


 


   If an ingress PE uses ingress replicati=
on, then for a given (x,G)


   group in a given BD:


 


   1.  It sends (x,G) traffic to the =
set of PEs not supporting IGMP


       Proxy.  Th=
is set consists of any PE that has advertised an


       Inclusive Multi=
cast Tag route for the BD without the "IGMP Proxy


       Support" f=
lag.


 


*****JD  This set consists of any PE that has a=
dvertised an IMET route for the BD



without a  Multicast Flags extended community o=
r with a Multicast Flags extended



community in which neither the IGMP Proxy support no=
r the  MLD Proxy support


flags are set.


 


   2.  It sends (x,G) traffic to the =
set of PEs supporting IGMP Proxy


       and having list=
eners for that (x,G) group in that BD.  This set


       consists of any=
 PE that has advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag


       route for the B=
D with the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag and that has


       advertised a SM=
ET route for that (x,G) group in that BD.


 


*****JD  This set consists of any PE that has a=
dvertised an IMET route for the BD



with a Multicast Flags extended community in which t=
he IGMP Proxy support and/or


the  MLD Proxy support flags are set and that h=
as advertised a SMET route for that (x,G)


group in that BD.


 


   If an ingress PE's Selective P-Tunnel f=
or a given BD uses P2MP and


   all of the PEs in the BD support that t=
unnel type and IGMP proxy,


 


*****JD and IGMP and/or MLD proxy,


 


   then for a given (x,G) group in a given=
 BD it sends (x,G) traffic


   using the Selective P-Tunnel for that (=
x,G) group in that BD.  This


   tunnel includes those PEs that have adv=
ertised a SMET route for that


   (x,G) group on that BD (for Selective P=
-tunnel) but it may include


   other PEs as well (for Aggregate Select=
ive P-tunnel).


 


9.4.  Multicast F=
lags Extended Community


 


   The 'Multicast Flags' extended communit=
y is a new EVPN extended


   community.  EVPN extended communit=
ies are transitive extended


   communities with a Type field value of =
6.  IANA will assign a Sub-


   Type from the 'EVPN Extended Community =
Sub-Types' registry.


 


   A PE that supports IGMP proxy on a give=
n BD MUST attach this extended


   community to the Inclusive Multicast Et=
hernet Tag (IMET) route it


   advertises for that BD and it MUST set =
the IGMP Proxy Support flag to


   1.  Note that an [RFC7432] compliant PE will not advertise this


   extended community so its absence indic=
ates that the advertising PE


   does not support IGMP Proxy.=



 


*****JD     A PE that supports I=
GMP and/or MLD Proxy on a given BD


MUST attach this extended community to the IMET rout=
e it advertises


advertises for that BD and it MUST set the IGMP and/=
or MLD Proxy


Support flags to 1.  Note that an [RFC7432] compliant PE will not advertise this=



extended community so its absence indicates that the=
 advertising PE


does not support either IGMP or MLD Proxy.


 


 




Yours Irrespectively,


 


John




 


 



Juniper Business Use Only








From: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <mankami=
s@cisco.com>


Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 11:02 AM

To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; Benjamin Kaduk <kadu=
k@mit.edu>

Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pr=
oxy@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf@gmail.com<=
br>
Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-m=
ld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






 


<=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]


 




Hi Ben, 


Making the changes as you suggested. Attached diff w=
hich I would be pushing today.



 


One question 


 


> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy=
 Support" flag, but we actually have

> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support&qu=
ot; flags.


 


Does IGMP or MLD Proxy Support not mean that either =
of them can be set / unset. Any thing specific you want to be added here ?



 


Mankamana 


 




From:
John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>

Date: Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:17 AM

To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.ed=
u>

Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org&=
gt;, 
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-pro=
xy@ietf.org>,
bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>,
bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>,
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <=
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com><=
br>
Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-m=
ld-proxy-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






Ben,



Comments inline below.



Yours Irrespectively,



John





Juniper Business Use Only



> -----Original Message-----

> From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.ed=
u>

> Sent: Friday, February 4, 2022 8:09 PM

> To: John E Drake <jdrake@juni=
per.net>

> Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>=
;; 
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;

> bess-chairs@ietf.org; 
bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf=
@gmail.com

> Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld=
-proxy-

> 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> 

> [External Email. Be cautious of content]

> 

> 

> Hi John,

> 

> My apologies for taking a few weeks to reply; I was sick when this cam=
e in and a

> bunch of stuff piled up, which has taken some time to get back to.

> I can only take a small amount of solace by noting that at least this =
is not the

> last DISCUSS blocking the document from approval.

> 

> Inline...

> 

> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 03:28:11PM +0000, John E Drake wrote:

> >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: Benjamin Kaduk <ka=
duk@mit.edu>

> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 10:08 PM

> > > To: John E Drake <j=
drake@juniper.net>

> > > Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.=
org>;

> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;

> > > bess-chairs@ietf.org=
; 
bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf=
@gmail.com

> > > Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on

> > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-

> > > 13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> > >

> > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi John,

> > >

> > > Thanks for helping clarify.  Also inline.

> > >

> > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 06:35:43PM +0000, John E Drake wrote=
:

> > > > Ben,

> > > >

> > > > Comments inline.

> > > >

> > > > Yours Irrespectively,

> > > >

> > > > John

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Juniper Business Use Only

> > > >

> > > > > -----Original Message-----

> > > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>

> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 8:49 PM

> > > > > To: The IESG <=
iesg@ietf.org>

> > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy@ietf.org;

> > > > > bess-chair=
s@ietf.org; 
bess@ietf.org; slitkows.ietf=
@gmail.com

> > > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on

> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-

> > > 13:

> > > > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> > > > >

> > > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content]

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot po=
sition for

> > > > > draft-ietf-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13: Discuss
> > > > >

> > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line inta=
ct and reply

> > > > > to all email addresses included in the To and CC l=
ines. (Feel

> > > > > free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)=


> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Please refer to

> > > > > 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-i

> > > > > esg-

> > > > > ballot-

> > > > > positions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-

> > > > >

> > >

> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSRrxQJ1U$
> > > > > for more information about how to handle DISCUSS a=
nd COMMENT

> > > positions.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, c=
an be found here:

> > > > > 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra

> > > > > ft-i

> > > > > etf-bess-

> > > > > evpn-igmp-mld-proxy/__;!!NEt6yMaO-

> > > > >

> > >

> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSbOB2k3E$
> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > > DISCUSS:

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > (1) Apparently each PE is supposed to store versio=
n flags for

> > > > > each other PE in the EVI (I guess on a per-route b=
asis?), but

> > > > > this is mentioned just once, in passing, in step 2=
 of the Leave

> > > > > Group procedures in

> > > =A74.1.2.

> > > >

> > > > [JD]  The first hop PE keeps track of which IGMP o=
r MLD versions

> > > > are active on

> > > the ESes to which it is attached and announces this via the =
BGP SMET route.

> > >

> > > Yes.  Should this statement (or something like it) be i=
n the document itself?

> > > (Where?)

> >

> > [JD] Would you please review sections 4 and 5 of the -16

> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/draft-ietf-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_GYAo7RM$ ,

> 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iet=
f-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-5__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_8b_wkkE$ ) and see if they are=
 is

> clear enough?

> 

> You ask if they are "clear enough?"  The changes to cla=
rify which steps are done

> by which PEs are quite helpful, and thank you for that.  But they=
 are not really

> addressing the issue that was bothering me.  Nevertheless, in lig=
ht of this discuss

> point being raised in order to have a conversation, I guess they are c=
lear

> *enough*, but just barely, and there's plenty of room to make them mor=
e clear.

> 

> In short, what bothers me here is that we say something like "com=
pare ...

> with its per-PE stored version flags", but we never concretely sa=
y "store some

> per-PE version flags" anywhere.  Now, this is BGP, so of cou=
rse you're storing

> what you got and from whom, but writing it in the way it's currently s=
tated

> makes the reader work pretty hard to figure out what's going on. =
 If we said

> something like (with the caveat that I am surely using the wrong termi=
nology)

> "compare ... with the version flags from the corresponding saved =
EVPN SMET

> route in the BGP session with this PE", that would be very clear =
about what was

> saved and why.

> 

> We could also go further and talk about the information model concrete=
ly, a la:

> 

> % The goal of IGMP and MLD proxying is to make the EVPN behave seamles=
sly

> for % the tenant systems with respect to multicast operations, while u=
sing a

> more % efficient delivery system for signaling and delivery across the=
 VPN.

> % Accordingly, group state must be tracked synchronously among the PEs=
 %

> serving the VPN, with join and leave events propagated to the peer PEs=
, and %

> each PE tracking the state of each of its peer PEs with respect whethe=
r % there

> are locally attached group members (and in some cases, senders), what =
%

> version(s) of IGMP/MLD are in use for those locally attached group mem=
bers, %

> etc.  In order to perform this translation, each PE acts as an IG=
MP router % for

> the locally attached domain, and maintains the requisite state on % lo=
cally

> attached nodes, sends periodic membership queries, etc.  The role=
 % of EVPN

> SMET route propagation is to ensure that each PE's local state is % pr=
opagated

> to the other PEs so that they share a consistent view of the % overall=
 IGMP

> Membership Request and Leave Group state.  It is important to % n=
ote that the

> need to keep such local state can be triggered by either % local IGMP =
traffic or

> BGP EVPN signaling.  In most cases a local IGMP event % will need=
 to be signaled

> over EVPN, though state initiated by received EVPN % traffic will not =
always

> need to be relayed to the locally attached domain.



[JD]  We can add this text to section 4. 

> 

> > >

> > > > > Similarly, =A76.1 defines, somewhat in passing, so=
me "local IGMP

> > > > > Membership Request (x,G) state" that must be =
maintained in some cases.

> > > > > Let's discuss whether it's appropriate/useful to h=
ave a general

> > > > > introductory section that covers what new state PE=
s are expected

> > > > > to retain as part of supporting IGMP/MLD proxying.=
  Maybe the

> > > > > answer is "no", but I would like to have=
 the conversation.

> > > >

> > > > [JD]  Section 6 generalizes the notion of a first =
hop PE to be the

> > > > set of multi-

> > > homed PEs attached to a given ES.  Section 6

> > > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/d

> > > raft-ietf-

> > > bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-13*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-

> > > gk!WAMtLTp8pHMhjeyfDY13FOVPAqTuQaEqcCu8hQOf-

> > > GMscsBgaRFDzERgy6ZEfS8$ ) explains why the multi-homed PEs n=
eed to

> > > synchronize state and section 6.1 explains what is that stat=
e:

> > >

> > > Rereading it, it does explain the need for state synchroniza=
tion;

> > > thanks for pointing that out.  However, it does not app=
ear to use or

> > > introduce the specific term that the subsequent subsections =
are

> > > using to refer to that state.  It seems like it could b=
e useful to

> > > have a defined term for this state, to help readers make the=


> > > connection between the need to track the state and where tha=
t state is

> referenced in the subsequent procedures.

> > >

> > > >  If the PE doesn't already have local IGMP Members=
hip Request

> > > > (x,G) state for

> > > that BD on that ES, it MUST instantiate local IGMP Membershi=
p

> > > Request (x,G) state and MUST advertise a BGP IGMP Join Synch=
 route

> > > for that (ES,BD).  Local IGMP Membership Request (x,G) =
state refers

> > > to IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state that is created as a =
result

> > > of processing an IGMP Membership Report for (x,G).

> > > >

> > > > i.e., IGMP Membership Request (x,G) state is the union =
of the

> > > > local IGMP Join

> > > (x,G) state and the installed IGMP Join Synch route.

> > >

> > > This would be a great start to a definition for such a defin=
ed term

> > > that I propose above.

> >

> > [JD]  Would you please review section 6 of the -16 version
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/draft-ietf-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-6__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_dTYpjPA$ ) and see if it is cl=
ear

> enough?

> 

> Even if you don't want to use the "concrete information model&quo=
t; approach I

> outline above, I think this text would be much clearer with the follow=
ing change

> in =A76:

> 

> OLD:

>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coord=
inate IGMP

>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, wher=
e x may be either

>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES=
. [...]

> 

> NEW:

>    Therefore, all PEs attached to a given ES must coord=
inate IGMP

>    Membership Request and Leave Group (x,G) state, wher=
e x may be either

>    '*' or a particular source S, for each BD on that ES=
.  Each PE has a

>    local copy of that state, and the EVPN signaling ser=
ves to synchronize

>    state across PEs.



[JD]  This is fine. 



> 

> But is it "clear enough" as-is?  Again, just barely, an=
d I will demote this topic to a

> COMMENT-level remark.

> 

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > (2) I am not sure if the body text is consistent w=
ith what is

> > > > > being allocated from IANA.  =A78 describes PE=
s that are not using

> > > > > ingress replication as being identifiable as "=
;""any PE that has

> > > > > advertised an Inclusive Multicast Tag route for th=
e BD without

> > > > > the "IGMP Proxy Support" flag""=
;", but the IANA considerations

> > > > > allocate flags for both IGMP Proxy Support and MLD=
 Proxy

> > > > > Support.  Is a PE that advertises MLD Proxy S=
upport but not IGMP

> > > > > Proxy Support to be treated as

> > > not using ingress replication, as the literal interpretation=
 of this

> > > text would require?

> > > > > Similarly, =A79.2.1 and =A79.3.1 include restricti=
ons on indication

> > > > > of support for "IGMP Proxy" with no ment=
ion of "MLD Proxy".

> > > >

> > > > [JD]  It should be either IGMP or MLD Proxy Suppor=
t

> > >

> > > Yes.  Hopefully this is easy to insert into the documen=
t itself.

> >

> > [JD]  Would you please review sections 8 and 9.4 of the -16 =
version

> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/draft-ietf-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-8__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U0f6li3uRjd2fa=
D-

> rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_U63FOVo$ , and

> 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iet=
f-

> bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-16*section-9.4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-

> gk!U0f6li3uRjd2faD-rySykNfIC0xL6dDVldh9DGvrvQvssauGhJcWFs1_QXUa-Og$ )<=
br>
> and see if they are is clear enough?

> 

> I think they are still problematic in this regard.

> 

> =A78 now talks about an "IGMP or MLD Proxy Support" flag, bu=
t we actually have

> separate "IGMP Proxy Support" and "MLD Proxy Support&qu=
ot; flags.

[

JD]  We will fix this. 



> 

> The =A79.2.1 and 9.3.1 text still has discussion relating to "ind=
icate that it

> supports" proxying of one or the other multicast protocols, and =
=A79.4 has a

> paragraph that I paraphrase as "if it supports IGMP proxy, it MUS=
T set the IGMP

> proxy flag to 1".  But the disclaimer in =A73 is specificall=
y worded to only cover

> "IGMP Membership Report" as including MLD Membership Report,=
 and to have

> version genericity within IGMP and within MLD.  Being specific to=
 the

> Membership Report in this way means that it does *not* come into effec=
t for

> discussions of "support for IGMP proxy" or "support for=
 MLD proxy", which is

> what seems problematic to me, here.

> 

> It seems like it ought to be pretty straightforward to craft some text=
 that

> expands the disclaimer in =A73 to cover things like "Likewise, wh=
en there is text

> considering whether a PE indicates support for IGMP proxying, the

> corresponding behavior has a natural analogue for indication of suppor=
t for

> MLD proxying, and the analogous requirements apply as well".



[JD]  We will add this. 



> 

> -Ben

> 

> > >

> > > Thanks again,

> > >

> > > Ben

> > >

> > > > > I do see that there is a generic disclaimer at the=
 end of

> > > > > Section 3 but the way it is written does not actua=
lly seem to cover this

> usage.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > > COMMENT:

> > > > > --------------------------------------------------=
--------------

> > > > > ----

> > > > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > As one of the directorate reviewers noted (and =C9=
ric promoted to

> > > > > a DISCUSS), this document does not really give any=
 specific

> > > > > description of how an EVPN PE should construct out=
going IGMP/MLD

> > > > > messages to send out on its ACs as a result of rec=
eiving EVP

> > > > > information over BGP.  From a brief examinati=
on of the relevant

> > > > > IGMP messages, it seems that the EVPN messages mig=
ht actually

> > > > > contain information to populate literally all the =
IGMP fields,

> > > > > but this is probably worth mentioning explicitly.&=
nbsp; In

> > > > > particular, guidance might be interesting for

> > > > > (e.g.) IGMPv3, that lets multiple Group Records be=
 included in a

> > > > > single Membership Report.

> > > > > (Pedantically, such IGMPv3 multiplexing might also=
 require

> > > > > phrasing changes for the reverse process, taking I=
GMP and

> > > > > constructing EVPN routes, since we refer to (e.g) =
"the Group

> > > > > address of the IGMP Membership Report" in pla=
ces, and that is

> > > > > not a well-defined concept in the absence of some =
text

> > > > > indicating group-by- group processing.)

> > > > >

> > > > > Abstract

> > > > >

> > > > >    This document describes how to s=
upport efficiently endpoints running

> > > > >    IGMP for the above services over=
 an EVPN network by incorporating

> > > > >    IGMP proxy procedures on EVPN PE=
s.

> > > > >

> > > > > I see Lars already noted the dangling reference to=
 "above services".

> > > > > That really needs to be fixed before approval, and=
 even looking

> > > > > at the diff from -

> > > > > 12 to -13 does not give me a clear picture of what=
 to suggest as a

> rewrite.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 1

> > > > >

> > > > > I strongly suggest mentioning and referencing some=
 of the core

> > > > > technologies that readers are assumed to be famili=
ar with (e.g.,

> > > > > RFC

> > > > > 7432 for EVPN, RFC 6514 for various tunnel types i=
ncluding

> > > > > Ingress

> > > Replication).

> > > > > At present the document is quite unfriendly to a r=
eader from an

> > > > > outside field, who has little to no indication as =
to what

> > > > > background material is required in order to be abl=
e to make sense of this

> document.

> > > > >

> > > > >    In DC applications, a point of d=
elivery (POD) can consist of

> > > > > a

> > > > >

> > > > > Data Center is not marked as "well-known"=
; at

> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-

> > > > > editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt__;!!NEt6=
yMaO-

> > > > >

> > >

> gk!RdAYIQJzeV4Zo3HeoU6yFlhxJGC56JOC41jC9lqSbJyT7Gw448bi3rPSLlJ3XlU$
> > > > > and needs to be expanded on first use.

> > > > >

> > > > >    2.  Distributed anycast mul=
ticast proxy: it is desirable for the EVPN

> > > > >        network =
to act as a distributed anycast multicast router

> > > > > with

> > > > >

> > > > > I honestly don't know what a "distributed any=
cast multicast router"

> > > > > is supposed to be.  Google finds only a handf=
ul of instances of

> > > > > that

> > > > > (quoted) phrase, most of which can be traced back =
to this document.

> > > > > There is a similar phrase in =A74.2 that perhaps c=
larifies that

> > > > > the collection of EVPN PEs is intended to function=
 as a

> > > > > distributed multicast router (that is perhaps in s=
ome sense transparent to

> the CEs).

> > > > > But how does the "anycast" part come int=
o play?  How is the

> > > > > anycast IP address assigned, and which protocol me=
ssages is it conveyed

> in?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 3

> > > > >

> > > > > I suggest adding SMET to the terminology listed he=
re.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  Ethernet Segment (ES): W=
hen a customer site (device or network) is

> > > > >       connected to o=
ne or more PEs via a set of Ethernet links.

> > > > >

> > > > > That looks like an extremely unconventional defini=
tion for

> > > > > "Ethernet

> > > Segment".

> > > > >

> > > > >    Membership Report too.  Sim=
ilarly, text for IGMPv2 applies to MLDv1

> > > > >    and text for IGMPv3 applies to M=
LDv2.  IGMP / MLD version encoding in

> > > > >    BGP update is stated in Section =
9

> > > > >

> > > > > I suggest stating explicitly that this equivalence=
 is possible

> > > > > because the indicated versions provide analogous f=
unctionality

> > > > > for IPv4 and

> > > IPv6, respectively.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4.1.1

> > > > >

> > > > >        is consi=
dered as a new BGP route advertisement.  When different

> > > > >        version =
of IGMP join are received, final state MUST be as per

> > > > >        section =
5.1 of [RFC3376].  At the end of route processing local

> > > > >        and remo=
te group record state MUST be as per section 5.1 of

> > > > >        [RFC3376=
].

> > > > >

> > > > > I interpret "different version of IGMP join&q=
uot; as "join messages

> > > > > from different IGMP protocol versions", which=
 makes this

> > > > > reference to RFC

> > > > > 3376 make no sense to me -- the referenced section=
 does not talk

> > > > > about multiple protocol versions at all.  Ple=
ase clarify what

> > > > > behavior from RFC 3376 is being referenced.

> > > > >

> > > > >        logged.&=
nbsp; If the v3 flag is set (in addition to v2), then the IE

> > > > >        flag MUS=
T indicate "exclude".  If not, then an error SHOULD be

> > > > >        logged.&=
nbsp; [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > It's great to say that this is an error condition =
and should be logged.

> > > > > What does the recipient actually do while processi=
ng the message?

> > > > > An RFC 7606 named behavior would be nice.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4.2

> > > > >

> > > > >    As mentioned in the previous sec=
tions, each PE MUST have proxy

> > > > >    querier functionality for the fo=
llowing reasons:

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not really sure which previous mentions this i=
s supposed to refer to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 6.2.1

> > > > >

> > > > > Just to confirm: the PE receiving a BGP Leave Sync=
h route does

> > > > > *not* produce local IGMP Query messages, on the as=
sumption that

> > > > > the PE that did receive the Leave locally has alre=
ady done so?

> > > > > (I don't think this necessarily needs to be writte=
n out in the

> > > > > document itself; I just want to confirm my underst=
anding.)

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 6.3

> > > > >

> > > > >    A PE which has received an IGMP =
Membership Request would have

> synced

> > > > >    the IGMP Join by the procedure d=
efined in section 6.1.  If a PE with

> > > > >    local join state goes down or th=
e PE to CE link goes down, it would

> > > > >    lead to a mass withdraw of multi=
cast routes.  Remote PEs (PEs

> > > > > where

> > > > >

> > > > > Can we have greater clarity on "would lead to=
"?  Are there

> > > > > actually routes that will be withdrawn and we are =
just ignoring

> > > > > the consequences of that for the purposes of local=
 state, using

> > > > > some heuristic (as mentioned later) for detecting =
whether a

> > > > > mass-withdraw is due to a failure at a peer? =
 Or is the mass

> > > > > withdraw a hypothetical scenario

> > > that the procedures described here fully avoid?

> > > > >

> > > > >    these routes were remote IGMP Jo=
ins) SHOULD NOT remove the state

> > > > >    immediately; instead General Que=
ry SHOULD be generated to refresh

> the

> > > > >    states.  There are several =
ways to detect failure at a peer, e.g.

> > > > >    using IGP next hop tracking or E=
S route withdraw.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does each PE initiate the General Query, in this s=
cenario?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 7

> > > > >

> > > > >    Note that to facilitate state sy=
nchronization after failover, the PEs

> > > > >    attached to a multihomed ES oper=
ating in Single-Active redundancy

> > > > >    mode SHOULD also coordinate IGMP=
 Join (x,G) state.  In this

> > > > > case all

> > > > >

> > > > > What are the drawbacks of not performing such sync=
hronization?

> > > > > Alternately, in what cases does it make sense to n=
ot perform

> > > > > synchronization (so that the guidance is SHOULD ra=
ther than MUST)?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.1

> > > > >

> > > > > It might be nice to mention that the length fields=
 are measured

> > > > > in bits here in this section, where the NLRI forma=
t is laid out,

> > > > > in addition to

> > > > > =A79.1.1 where the procedures for constructing it =
are laid out.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  If route is used for IPv=
6 (MLD) then bit 7 indicates support for

> > > > >       MLD version 1.=
  The second least significant bit, bit 6

> > > > > indicates

> > > > >

> > > > > How does the receiver know if the route is being u=
sed for IPv6?

> > > > > (Also applies in =A79.2, 9.3)

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.1.1

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there any requirement for consistency about usi=
ng IPv4 vs

> > > > > IPv6 addresses in all three address fields?  =
The description

> > > > > given here would seem to allow mixing address fami=
lies, but I

> > > > > don't really expect that to

> > > work in practice.

> > > > >

> > > > >    version and any source filtering=
 for a given group membership.  All

> > > > >    EVPN SMET routes are announced w=
ith per- EVI Route Target extended

> > > > >    communities.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there a good reference for discussion of these =
associated ECs?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.1.2

> > > > >

> > > > >    PE2 to receive multicast traffic=
.  In this case PE2 MUST originate a

> > > > >    (*,*) SMET route to receive all =
of the multicast traffic in the EVPN

> > > > >    domain.  To generate Wildca=
rds (*,*) routes, the procedure from

> > > > >    [RFC6625] SHOULD be used.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is the PE expected to identify this case based on =
protocol

> > > > > messages received at runtime (e.g., any PIM at all=
), or is this external

> configuration?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 9.3.1

> > > > >

> > > > >    Maximum Response Time is value t=
o be used while sending query as

> > > > >    defined in [RFC2236]

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it actually right to describe this as "whi=
le sending query

> > > > > [messages]"?  My understanding is that a=
 PE receiving this route

> > > > > over BGP would in fact *not* actually send IGMP Qu=
ery messages,

> > > > > but simply use the time to set a timer and potenti=
ally clear up

> > > > > state if certain conditions are met at the end of =
the period in question.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 10

> > > > >

> > > > > Just to confirm my understanding here: in the imme=
diate leave

> > > > > case, the Leave Synch route will be advertised jus=
t for the

> > > > > "delta" period of time described in

> > > > > =A76.2 and then withdrawn?

> > > > >

> > > > >    IGMP MAY be configured with imme=
diate leave option.  This

> > > > > allows the

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there a suitable reference for "immediate =
leave"?  I did not

> > > > > see much relevant in RFCs 2236 and 3376.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 12

> > > > >

> > > > > I support Roman's point about detailing which aspe=
cts are

> > > > > covered in which referenced RFCs.

> > > > >

> > > > > I also noted that the "delta" value used=
 in the Last Member

> > > > > Query process must be configured on each node, and=
 to the same value.

> > > > > Such requirement for identical configuration opens=
 up the chance

> > > > > for skew, and sometimes any such skew is security-=
relevant and

> > > > > must be documented in the security considerations.=
  However, I'm

> > > > > not sure that that's the case, here, as it seems t=
hat skew would

> > > > > mostly only serve to cause a brief "blip"=
; where a PE drops its

> > > > > group state only to recreate it when a report show=
s up later.

> > > > > Is there a scenario where the skew goes the other =
way, and a PE

> > > > > leaves group state in place

> > > indefinitely that should have been dropped?

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 16.1

> > > > >

> > > > > Since we only reference RFC 4684 to say that its p=
rocedures are

> > > > > not applicable to what we describe, it seems like =
it could be

> > > > > classified as only an informative reference.

> > > > >

> > > > > NITS

> > > > >

> > > > > We seem quite inconsistent about whether we write =
"BCP Leave

> > > > > Synch route" or "IGMP Leave Synch route&=
quot; (but I believe these

> > > > > are both supposed to be the same thing).

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 1

> > > > >

> > > > >    communication and orchestration.=
  However, EVPN is used as standard

> > > > >    way of inter-POD communication f=
or both intra-DC and

> > > > > inter-DC.  A

> > > > >

> > > > > intra-DC and inter-DC are both adjectives that nee=
d to modify some

> noun.

> > > > > Please supply such a noun (e.g., "traffic&quo=
t;).

> > > > >

> > > > >    These hosts express their intere=
sts in multicast groups on a given

> > > > >    subnet/VLAN by sending IGMP Memb=
ership Reports (Joins) for their

> > > > >    interested multicast group(s).&n=
bsp; [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > I think that this phrase "IGMP Membership Rep=
orts (Joins)" is

> > > > > intended to serve some cross-protocol clarificatio=
n role (e.g.,

> > > > > "Join" is used by

> > > > > IGMPv3 and MLD but not IGMPv2).  Since this i=
s the first place

> > > > > where we use that formulation, some additional tex=
t to clarify

> > > > > the shorthand seems

> > > in order.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 3

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  BD: Broadcast Domain.&nb=
sp; As per [RFC7432], an EVI consists of a

> > > > >       single or mult=
iple BDs.  In case of VLAN-bundle and

> > > > > VLAN-aware

> > > > >

> > > > > RFC 7432 spells "VLAN Bundle" with no hy=
phen.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  Single-Active Redundancy=
 Mode: When only a single PE, among all

> > > > >       the PEs attach=
ed to an Ethernet segment, is allowed to forward

> > > > >       traffic to/fro=
m that Ethernet segment for a given VLAN, then the

> > > > >       Ethernet segme=
nt is defined to be operating in Single-Active

> > > > >       redundancy mod=
e.

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  All-Active Redundancy Mo=
de: When all PEs attached to an Ethernet

> > > > >       segment are al=
lowed to forward known unicast traffic to/from that

> > > > >       Ethernet segme=
nt for a given VLAN, then the Ethernet segment is

> > > > >       defined to be =
operating in All-Active redundancy mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it important that the second definition only co=
vers "unicast traffic"

> > > > > but the former uses the unqualified term "tra=
ffic"?

> > > > >

> > > > >    o  OIF: Outgoing Interface =
for multicast.  It can be physical

> > > > >       interface, vir=
tual interface or tunnel.

> > > > >

> > > > > s/physical/a physical/

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4

> > > > >

> > > > >    The IGMP Proxy mechanism is used=
 to reduce the flooding of IGMP

> > > > >    messages over an EVPN network si=
milar to ARP proxy used in

> > > > > reducing

> > > > >

> > > > > "similarly to how ARP proxy is used"

> > > > >

> > > > >    speakers.  The information =
is again translated back to IGMP message

> > > > >    at the recipient EVPN speaker.&n=
bsp; Thus it helps create an IGMP

> > > > > overlay

> > > > >

> > > > > "IGMP messages" plural, to match the pre=
vious sentence.

> > > > >

> > > > > Section 4.1.1

> > > > >

> > > > >    1.  When the first hop PE r=
eceives several IGMP Membership Reports

> > > > >        (Joins),=
 belonging to the same IGMP version, from different

> > > > >        attached=
 hosts for the same (*,G) or (S,G), it SHOULD send a

> > > > >        single B=
GP message corresponding to the very first IGMP

> > > > >        Membersh=
ip Request (BGP update as soon as possible) for that

> > > > >        (*,G) or=
 (S,G).  [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > What is an "IGMP Membership Request"?&nb=
sp; Is this just a typo for Report?

> > > > >

> > > > >        &nb=
sp;            =
    This is because BGP is a stateful protocol and

> > > > >        no furth=
er transmission of the same report is needed.  If the

> > > > >        IGMP Mem=
bership Request is for (*,G), then multicast group

> > > > >        address =
MUST be sent along with the corresponding version flag

> > > > >        (v2 or v=
3) set.  [...]

> > > > >

> > > > > (ditto)

> > > > >

> > > > >        &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;  If the IGMP Join is for (S,G), then

> > > > >        besides =
setting multicast group address along with the version

> > > > >        flag v3,=
 the source IP address and the IE flag MUST be set












--_000_BYAPR11MB2725F3985E566806134DE2F0DF369BYAPR11MB2725namp_--


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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)" 
To: Vasilenko Eduard , Warren Kumari , Ron Bonica 
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "int-dir@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
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I agree with Vasilenko.

The meaning of the label is given by the encapsulation, e.g. for the EVPN f=
amily, label=3DVNI if the bgp encapsulation extended community indicates VX=
LAN, and label=3DMPLS-label if the encapsulation indicates MPLS.

In this document, the label is a transposed function if the encapsulation i=
ndicates SRv6 (given by the SRv6 Services TLV). So it is consistent with th=
e approach used by SAFIs that support different identifiers in the label fi=
eld.

Thanks.
Jorge

From: Vasilenko Eduard 
Date: Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 8:30 AM
To: Warren Kumari , Ron Bonica 
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org , last-call@ietf.org , bess@ietf.org , int-dir@ietf.org 
Subject: RE: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-s=
rv6-services-10
Hi all,
About this point:
1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. T=
his
is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe w=
e
shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?

I have seen in some BESS documents that this field is called =93Service Lab=
el=94, not =93MPLS label=94.
Because MPLS does not exist in VxLAN too, but the same label is used.
Hence, 1) is easy to resolve. It is just a terminology correction that make=
s sense in principle for all BESS documents.
Eduard
From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Warren Kumari
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2022 4:37 AM
To: Ron Bonica 
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; bess@ie=
tf.org; int-dir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-s=
rv6-services-10



On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 11:20 AM Ron Bonica via Datatracker > wrote:
Reviewer: Ron Bonica
Review result: Not Ready

I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services=
.txt.
These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Area
Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments jus=
t
like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resolve
them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For m=
ore
details on the INT Directorate, see
https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/
.

Major issues:

1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. T=
his
is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe w=
e
shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?

2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:

  BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret,
   on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, the part
   of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label values
   for MPLS-based services.  Implementations supporting this
   specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advertisement
   of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-service
   basis.  The details of deployment designs and implementation options
   are outside the scope of this document.

Much thanks to Ron for this OpsDir review -- I'd completely missed the abov=
e points, and they are important to address.

W


s/BGP speakers that do not support this specification/Legacy BGP implementa=
tions

It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:

- the SHOULD becomes a MUST
- the mechanism is described in this document

3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS



--
last-call mailing list
last-call@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call


--
The computing scientist=92s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his own making.
  -- E. W. Dijkstra

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











I agree with Vasilenko.



 


The meaning of the label is given by the encapsulation, e.g. for the EVPN=
 family, label=3DVNI if the bgp encapsulation extended community indicates =
VXLAN, and label=3DMPLS-label if the encapsulation
 indicates MPLS. 


 


In this document, the label is a transposed function if the encapsulation=
 indicates SRv6 (given by the SRv6 Services TLV). So it is consistent with =
the approach used by SAFIs that support
 different identifiers in the label field.


 


Thanks.


Jorge


 





F=
rom: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>

Date: Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 8:30 AM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@=
juniper.net>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-s=
rv6-services.all@ietf.org>, last-call@ietf.org <last-call@ietf.org>=
;, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, int-dir@ietf.org <int-dir@ietf.o=
rg>

Subject: RE: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf=
-bess-srv6-services-10




Hi all,<=
/span>


About th=
is point:


1) In Section 3.2.1, th=
e draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. This

is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe w=
e

shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?


 


I have s=
een in some BESS documents that this field is called =93Service Label=94, n=
ot =93MPLS label=94.


Because =
MPLS does not exist in VxLAN too, but the same label is used.


Hence, 1=
) is easy to resolve. It is just a terminology correction that makes sense =
in principle for all BESS documents.


Eduard


From: B=
ESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Warren Kumari

Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2022 4:37 AM

To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; =
bess@ietf.org; int-dir@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf=
-bess-srv6-services-10


 






 




 






On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at=
 11:20 AM Ron Bonica via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:







Reviewer: Ron Bonica

Review result: Not Ready



I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services=
.txt.

These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Area<=
br>
Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments jus=
t

like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resolve=


them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For m=
ore

details on the INT Directorate, see

https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/

<https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/>.



Major issues:



1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. T=
his

is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe w=
e

shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?



2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:



  BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret=
,

   on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, th=
e part

   of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label v=
alues

   for MPLS-based services.  Implementations supporting this=


   specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advert=
isement

   of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-ser=
vice

   basis.  The details of deployment designs and implementat=
ion options

   are outside the scope of this document.






 






Much thanks to Ron for =
this OpsDir review -- I'd completely missed the above points, and they are =
important to address.






 






W






 






 






s/BGP speakers that do =
not support this specification/Legacy BGP implementations



It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:



- the SHOULD becomes a MUST

- the mechanism is described in this document



3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS







-- 

last-call mailing list

last-call@ietf.org<=
/a>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call













 




-- 






The computing scientist=
=92s main challenge is not to get confused by the

complexities of his own making. 

  -- E. W. Dijkstra












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From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:49:03 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Erik Kline 
Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org, BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f8aafd05d8326bd3"
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Subject: Re: [bess] Erik Kline's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi Erik,

Thanks for your review and please check inline below for responses.


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 11:33 AM Erik Kline via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Erik Kline has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have little to add to the DISCUSSes held by others beyond my support.
>
> However, I would like to discuss having SRv6 control plane information,
> i.e.
> SIDs and their behaviours etc., being isolated by associating it with
> a separate SAFI.  Any other protocol element that needs to refer to such
> information can make reference to it through context-appropriate
> extensions.
>

KT> This is what the draft proposes. We have existing BGP services (e.g.
L3VPN & EVPN) and we are introducing extensions for signaling of SRv6
specific context for them.


>
> {AFI=IPv6, SAFI=unicast} is a valid way to advertise an SRv6 locator
> prefix,
> for example, as that's just IPv6 forwarding information.  If SRv6-specific
> information where separately advertised as {AFI=IPv6, SAFI=SRv6} then I
> suspect it would be simpler to filter out that information, detect leaks,
> and generally help the SRv6 domain fail closed more easily.
>

KT> This document does not cover nor discuss signaling of SRv6 locator
prefixes. That is already done today by IGPs with or without summarization
(or where necessary in multi-AS networks by BGP for IPv6 RFC 2545) and this
is all within a provider network. Nothing new is required for that.


> But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be somehow worse.
>

KT> It isn't necessary nor required because SRv6 locators are just IPv6
prefixes that are already covered by IGP/BGP extensions for IPv6 routing. A
provider that uses global IPv6 addresses in their infrastructure (e.g. for
their BGP and other routing sessions, on their router links and loopback,
for DHCP, AAA, etc.) already do routing for those prefixes via IGP/BGP.
These are not advertised (nor leaked) out into the Internet since doing so
can result in attacks on their internal network and infrastructure. They
are protected via BGP configuration to stop leaks and then again by ACLs at
Internet Border Routers to prevent attacks via the data path. This still
remains the case to be done for SRv6 locators - they are similarly the
service provider's "internal" infrastructure.

Thanks,
Ketan

--000000000000f8aafd05d8326bd3
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Hi Erik,

Thanks for yo=
ur review and please check inline below for responses.

=


=
On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 11:33 AM Erik Kline via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:<=
br>
Erik Kline has e=
ntered the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/h=
andling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-bess-srv6-services/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I have little to add to the DISCUSSes held by others beyond my support.



However, I would like to discuss having SRv6 control plane information, i.e=
.

SIDs and their behaviours etc., being isolated by associating it with

a separate SAFI.=C2=A0 Any other protocol element that needs to refer to su=
ch

information can make reference to it through context-appropriate extensions=
.

KT> This is what the draft propose=
s. We have existing BGP services (e.g. L3VPN & EVPN) and we are introdu=
cing extensions for signaling of SRv6 specific context for them.
=
=C2=A0



{AFI=3DIPv6, SAFI=3Dunicast} is a valid way to advertise an SRv6 locator pr=
efix,

for example, as that's just IPv6 forwarding information.=C2=A0 If SRv6-=
specific

information where separately advertised as {AFI=3DIPv6, SAFI=3DSRv6} then I=


suspect it would be simpler to filter out that information, detect leaks,
and generally help the SRv6 domain fail closed more easily.

KT> This document does not cover nor discuss signal=
ing of SRv6 locator prefixes. That is already done today by IGPs with or wi=
thout summarization (or where necessary in multi-AS networks by BGP for IPv=
6 RFC 2545) and this is all within a provider network. Nothing new is requi=
red for that.



But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be someho=
w worse.

KT> It isn't necessary =
nor required because SRv6 locators are just IPv6 prefixes that are already =
covered by IGP/BGP extensions for IPv6 routing. A provider that uses global=
 IPv6 addresses in their infrastructure (e.g. for their BGP and other routi=
ng sessions, on their router links and loopback, for DHCP, AAA, etc.) alrea=
dy do routing for those prefixes via IGP/BGP. These are not advertised (nor=
 leaked) out into the Internet since doing so can result in attacks on thei=
r internal network and infrastructure. They are protected via BGP configura=
tion to stop leaks and then again by ACLs at Internet Border Routers to pre=
vent attacks via the data path. This still remains the case to be done for =
SRv6 locators - they are similarly the service provider's "interna=
l" infrastructure.

Thanks,
Ketan



=C2=A0


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From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:49:30 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Murray Kucherawy 
Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org, BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Murray,

Thanks for your review.

This document covers several BGP services and has received contributions
from several people over the past 5 years. The authors will discuss and get
back on the trimming of the front page list.

Thanks,
Ketan


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 11:44 AM Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Just to double-check: Are we okay with having seven authors on this
> document
> when the guidelines specify a limit of five?
>
>
>
>

--0000000000009785aa05d8326d77
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Hi Murray,

Thanks for your review.=C2=
=A0

This document covers several BGP services and =
has received contributions from several people over the past 5 years. The a=
uthors will discuss and get back on the trimming of the front page list.

Thanks,
Ketan

On Thu, =
Feb 17, 2022 at 11:44 AM Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Murray Kucherawy h=
as entered the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: No Objection



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/h=
andling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-bess-srv6-services/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



Just to double-check: Are we okay with having seven authors on this documen=
t

when the guidelines specify a limit of five?










--0000000000009785aa05d8326d77--


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From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:49:53 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: John Scudder 
Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org, BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Hi John,

Thanks for your review and please check inline below for responses.


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 3:09 AM John Scudder via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> John Scudder has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. The shepherd writeup for this document says =E2=80=9CIt also received =
an RTG DIR
> review and cross-reviewed with the IDR working group=E2=80=9D. Searching =
in my IDR
> inbox and the IDR mailing list archives, I don=E2=80=99t find any sign of=
 the
> cross-review =E2=80=94 can you please point me to it?
>
> 2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looked into is,
> the
> document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the NLRI to carr=
y
> the
> Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively split across
> the
> NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential error modes if
> the
> Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the NLRI is
> retained?
>
> (An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be to define =
a
> new
> NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively repurposing
> fields
> within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Such an NLRI
> type
> would, for example, presumably state in its specification that if it was
> received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that would
> constitute an
> error.)
>

KT> This document follows the approach similar as taken for extending MPLS
EVPN RFC7432 by RFC8365.


>
> 3. As Warren Kumari points out in his DISCUSS, =E2=80=9Cleaks happen=E2=
=80=9D. Subsequent
> discussion turned quickly to the assertion that no, they don=E2=80=99t, i=
n VPN
> address
> families. Let=E2=80=99s accept that claim for the sake of conversation. I=
t=E2=80=99s still
> the
> case that sometimes (often?) routes are distributed from VPN address
> families
> into the Global Internet table. When this is done, by default, all the pa=
th
> attributes come along for the ride. Anyone who thinks this is just a
> hypothetical case might want to look back to (for example) significant
> network
> outages that were caused around a decade ago by leakage of BGP Attribute
> 128
> (ATTR_SET, RFC 6368) into the global Internet.
>
> The SIDs contained in these if-they-were-to-leak routes potentially give =
an
> attacker a means of directing packets into a VPN customer=E2=80=99s inter=
nal
> network.
>

KT> I believe we are getting now into implementation aspects when you bring
up handling of attributes during redistribution from VPN tables into the
default table. We can add some text in the security considerations to
discuss this.


>
> 4. Speaking of Warren=E2=80=99s DISCUSS, the shepherd=E2=80=99s writeup i=
ndicates =E2=80=9Csolid
> [WG]
> consensus=E2=80=9D; however, there doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be consensus e=
ven amongst the
> authors as to whether Sections 5.3 and 5.4 are appropriate. This is a
> fairly
> fundamental disagreement! An illustration of the disagreement is
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/K1JKxGn19BXALs3rUzUAaGTZi0Y/:
>
> =E2=80=9CSo I can see why some people may have thought oh since transport=
 in SRv6
> comes
> for free let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes I
> can see
> that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to enable)=
,
> *but
> I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here.* This comes as a
> consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI (perhaps new
> format
> and new SAFI) to an attribute.=E2=80=9D
>
> (Emphasis added.)
>
> It's of course possible for an author to be in the rough as regards
> consensus,
> just as any other WG contributor, but it's a little unusual, and this
> disagreement doesn't even seem to have been previously aired. For this
> reason,
> I have to question the strength of the consensus behind this document, an=
d
> ask
> the WG chairs to weigh in regarding whether consensus on at least this
> point
> needs to be checked before we proceed forward.
>

KT> My co-author Robert has clarified. One other way to look at consensus
is based on the multivendor implementations, interoperability, and
deployments.


>
> 5. Finally, I have to question the length of the author list. As I=E2=80=
=99m sure
> you
> know, the guidance is to limit author lists to no more than five, other
> than
> under unusual circumstances. I would have expected to find an explanation
> of
> the circumstances around the author list of this document in the shepherd
> writeup; there is none. (It=E2=80=99s a specific check item in Guidelines=
 to
> Authors of
> Internet-Drafts, https://www.ietf.org/how/ids/guidelines/)
>
> The easiest way to resolve this would be to trim the author list per the
> suggestions in RFC 7322 =C2=A74.1.1, of course.
>

KT> We will discuss this amongst the authors.

Thanks,
Ketan



>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. I support Warren Kumari=E2=80=99s DISCUSS.
>
> 2. (Further comments TBD and I apologize for not providing them now; I
> wanted
> to get this sent off though.)
>
>
>
>

--000000000000fa4aa405d8326e44
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi John,

Thanks for yo=
ur review and please check inline below for responses.

=


=
On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 3:09 AM John Scudder via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:=

John Scudder ha=
s entered the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/h=
andling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-bess-srv6-services/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



1. The shepherd writeup for this document says =E2=80=9CIt also received an=
 RTG DIR

review and cross-reviewed with the IDR working group=E2=80=9D. Searching in=
 my IDR

inbox and the IDR mailing list archives, I don=E2=80=99t find any sign of t=
he

cross-review =E2=80=94 can you please point me to it?



2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looked into is, th=
e

document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the NLRI to carry =
the

Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively split across th=
e

NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential error modes if th=
e

Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the NLRI is retai=
ned?



(An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be to define a =
new

NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively repurposing fie=
lds

within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Such an NLRI ty=
pe

would, for example, presumably state in its specification that if it was
received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that would constitut=
e an

error.)

KT> This document follows th=
e approach similar as taken for extending MPLS EVPN RFC7432 by RFC8365.
=C2=A0



3. As Warren Kumari points out in his DISCUSS, =E2=80=9Cleaks happen=E2=80=
=9D. Subsequent

discussion turned quickly to the assertion that no, they don=E2=80=99t, in =
VPN address

families. Let=E2=80=99s accept that claim for the sake of conversation. It=
=E2=80=99s still the

case that sometimes (often?) routes are distributed from VPN address famili=
es

into the Global Internet table. When this is done, by default, all the path=


attributes come along for the ride. Anyone who thinks this is just a

hypothetical case might want to look back to (for example) significant netw=
ork

outages that were caused around a decade ago by leakage of BGP Attribute 12=
8

(ATTR_SET, RFC 6368) into the global Internet.



The SIDs contained in these if-they-were-to-leak routes potentially give an=


attacker a means of directing packets into a VPN customer=E2=80=99s interna=
l network.

KT> I believe we are gett=
ing now into implementation aspects when you bring up handling=C2=A0of attr=
ibutes during redistribution from VPN tables into the default table. We can=
 add some text in the security considerations to discuss this.
=
=C2=A0



4. Speaking of Warren=E2=80=99s DISCUSS, the shepherd=E2=80=99s writeup ind=
icates =E2=80=9Csolid [WG]

consensus=E2=80=9D; however, there doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be consensus eve=
n amongst the

authors as to whether Sections 5.3 and 5.4 are appropriate. This is a fairl=
y

fundamental disagreement! An illustration of the disagreement is

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/=
arch/msg/bess/K1JKxGn19BXALs3rUzUAaGTZi0Y/:



=E2=80=9CSo I can see why some people may have thought oh since transport i=
n SRv6 comes

for free let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes I=
 can see

that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to enable), =
*but

I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here.* This comes as a

consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI (perhaps new form=
at

and new SAFI) to an attribute.=E2=80=9D



(Emphasis added.)



It's of course possible for an author to be in the rough as regards con=
sensus,

just as any other WG contributor, but it's a little unusual, and this
disagreement doesn't even seem to have been previously aired. For this =
reason,

I have to question the strength of the consensus behind this document, and =
ask

the WG chairs to weigh in regarding whether consensus on at least this poin=
t

needs to be checked before we proceed forward.

KT> My co-author Robert has clarified. One other way to look at =
consensus is based on the multivendor implementations, interoperability, an=
d deployments.
=C2=A0



5. Finally, I have to question the length of the author list. As I=E2=80=99=
m sure you

know, the guidance is to limit author lists to no more than five, other tha=
n

under unusual circumstances. I would have expected to find an explanation o=
f

the circumstances around the author list of this document in the shepherd
writeup; there is none. (It=E2=80=99s a specific check item in Guidelines t=
o Authors of

Internet-Drafts, https://www.ietf.org/how/ids/guidelines/<=
/a>)



The easiest way to resolve this would be to trim the author list per the
suggestions in RFC 7322 =C2=A74.1.1, of course.


--000000000000fa4aa405d8326e44--


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From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:50:11 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: liu.yao71@zte.com.cn
Cc: Ron Bonica , John Scudder ,  draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org, bess-chairs@ietf.org,  BESS , draft-lz-bess-srv6-service-capability@ietf.org,  etmetz@gmail.com
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Hi Yao,

Thanks to you and your co-authors for this work.

While the implementations and deployments today use configuration knobs for
this purpose, the use of capabilities exchange is certainly another option
to consider. However, the capability exchange takes care of peering between
implementations that are enabled for and support SRv6. We will still need
the policy configuration knobs for more granular control and filtering
mechanisms. So, IMHO, these mechanisms are complementary.

That said, let us go through the normal WG review process and I see no
issue in extending with capability exchange in a future document such as
yours.

Thanks,
Ketan



On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 12:15 PM  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Ron and John both mentioned that leveraging the existing AFI/SAFI may
> cause misunderstanding of the SRv6 service routes.
>
> We encountered this problem during implementation and submitted a draft
> talking about this.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/
> draft-lz-bess-srv6-service-capability-02
>
> One solution(if new AFI/SAFI is not defined) we proposed in the draft is
> to define a new BGP capability code for for SRv6-based BGP service
> capability, and then SRv6 service routes would only be exchanged between
> devices that support it based on this capability.
>
> Do you think this is a possible solution?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Yao
>
>
>
>
>

--00000000000001f72305d83270dd
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Yao,

Thanks to you and your co-autho=
rs for this work.=C2=A0

While the implementations =
and deployments today use configuration knobs for this purpose, the use of =
capabilities exchange is certainly another option to consider. However, the=
 capability exchange takes care of peering between implementations that are=
 enabled for and support SRv6. We will still need the policy configuration =
knobs for more granular control and filtering mechanisms. So, IMHO, these m=
echanisms are complementary.

That said, let us go =
through the normal WG review process and I see no issue in extending with c=
apability exchange in a future document such as yours.

=

Thanks,
Ketan



<=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Thu, Feb=
 17, 2022 at 12:15 PM <liu.yao71@zte.com.cn> wrote:
Hi,
Ron and John =
both mentioned that leveraging the existing AFI/SAFI may cause misunderstan=
ding of the SRv6 service routes.
We encountered this problem during i=
mplementation and submitted a draft talking about this.
https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lz-bess-srv6-=
service-capability-02
One solution(if new AFI/SAFI is not defi=
ned) we proposed=C2=A0in the draft is to define a new BGP capability code f=
or for SRv6-based BGP service capability, and then SRv6 service routes woul=
d only be exchanged between devices that support it based on this capabilit=
y.
Do you think this is a possible solution?

Regards=
,
Yao

<=
p style=3D"font-size:12px;font-family:sans-serif">



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From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:50:26 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)" 
Cc: Vasilenko Eduard , Warren Kumari , Ron Bonica ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org" ,  "last-call@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" ,  "int-dir@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
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+1


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 1:11 PM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) <
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:

> I agree with Vasilenko.
>
>
>
> The meaning of the label is given by the encapsulation, e.g. for the EVPN
> family, label=3DVNI if the bgp encapsulation extended community indicates
> VXLAN, and label=3DMPLS-label if the encapsulation indicates MPLS.
>
>
>
> In this document, the label is a transposed function if the encapsulation
> indicates SRv6 (given by the SRv6 Services TLV). So it is consistent with
> the approach used by SAFIs that support different identifiers in the labe=
l
> field.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> *From: *Vasilenko Eduard 
> *Date: *Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 8:30 AM
> *To: *Warren Kumari , Ron Bonica 
> *Cc: *draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org <
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org>, last-call@ietf.org <
> last-call@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org , int-dir@ietf.org <
> int-dir@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
>
> Hi all,
>
> About this point:
>
> 1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field.
> This
> is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe
> we
> shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?
>
>
>
> I have seen in some BESS documents that this field is called =E2=80=9CSer=
vice
> Label=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9CMPLS label=E2=80=9D.
>
> Because MPLS does not exist in VxLAN too, but the same label is used.
>
> Hence, 1) is easy to resolve. It is just a terminology correction that
> makes sense in principle for all BESS documents.
>
> Eduard
>
> *From:* BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Warren Kumari
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 17, 2022 4:37 AM
> *To:* Ron Bonica 
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org;
> bess@ietf.org; int-dir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 11:20 AM Ron Bonica via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Reviewer: Ron Bonica
> Review result: Not Ready
>
> I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.txt.
> These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Are=
a
> Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments
> just
> like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resol=
ve
> them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For
> more
> details on the INT Directorate, see
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/
> .
>
> Major issues:
>
> 1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field.
> This
> is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe
> we
> shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?
>
> 2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:
>
>   BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret,
>    on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, the part
>    of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label values
>    for MPLS-based services.  Implementations supporting this
>    specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advertisement
>    of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-service
>    basis.  The details of deployment designs and implementation options
>    are outside the scope of this document.
>
>
>
> Much thanks to Ron for this OpsDir review -- I'd completely missed the
> above points, and they are important to address.
>
>
>
> W
>
>
>
>
>
> s/BGP speakers that do not support this specification/Legacy BGP
> implementations
>
> It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:
>
> - the SHOULD becomes a MUST
> - the mechanism is described in this document
>
> 3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS
>
>
>
> --
> last-call mailing list
> last-call@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused b=
y the
> complexities of his own making.
>   -- E. W. Dijkstra
>

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+1=C2=A0


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 1:11 PM=
 Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:











I agree with Vasilenko.



=C2=A0


The meaning of the label is given by the encapsulation, e.g. for the EVPN=
 family, label=3DVNI if the bgp encapsulation extended community indicates =
VXLAN, and label=3DMPLS-label if the encapsulation
 indicates MPLS. 


=C2=A0


In this document, the label is a transposed function if the encapsulation=
 indicates SRv6 (given by the SRv6 Services TLV). So it is consistent with =
the approach used by SAFIs that support
 different identifiers in the label field.


=C2=A0


Thanks.


Jorge


=C2=A0





From: =
Vasilenko Ed=
uard <v=
asilenko.eduard@huawei.com>

Date: Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 8:30 AM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org <dr=
aft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org>, last-call@ietf.org <last-call@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, int-dir@ietf.org <int-dir@ietf.org>=


Subject: RE: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf=
-bess-srv6-services-10




Hi all,=



About this point:=



1) In Section 3.2.1, the =
draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. This

is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe w=
e

shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?


=C2=A0<=
/u>


I have seen in so=
me BESS documents that this field is called =E2=80=9CService Label=E2=80=9D=
, not =E2=80=9CMPLS label=E2=80=9D.


Because MPLS does=
 not exist in VxLAN too, but the same label is used.

Hence, 1) is easy=
 to resolve. It is just a terminology correction that makes sense in princi=
ple for all BESS documents.


Eduard<=
/u>


From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Warren Kumari

Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2022 4:37 AM

To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org; int-dir@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf=
-bess-srv6-services-10


=C2=A0






=C2=A0




=C2=A0






On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 1=
1:20 AM Ron Bonica via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:







Reviewer: Ron Bonica

Review result: Not Ready



I am an assigned INT directorate reviewer for draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services=
.txt.

These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Internet Area<=
br>
Directors. Document editors and shepherd(s) should treat these comments jus=
t

like they would treat comments from any other IETF contributors and resolve=


them along with any other Last Call comments that have been received. For m=
ore

details on the INT Directorate, see

https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/

<https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/>.



Major issues:



1) In Section 3.2.1, the draft transposes bits into the MPLS Label field. T=
his

is surprising because MPLS appears nowhere in the forwarding plane. Maybe w=
e

shouldn't advertise an MPLS label?



2) In Section 3.2.1 the draft says:



=C2=A0 BGP speakers that do not support this specification may misinterpret=
,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0on the reception of an SRv6-based BGP service route update, th=
e part

=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the SRv6 SID encoded in MPLS label field(s) as MPLS label v=
alues

=C2=A0 =C2=A0for MPLS-based services.=C2=A0 Implementations supporting this=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0specification SHOULD provide a mechanism to control the advert=
isement

=C2=A0 =C2=A0of SRv6-based BGP service routes on a per-neighbor and per-ser=
vice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0basis.=C2=A0 The details of deployment designs and implementat=
ion options

=C2=A0 =C2=A0are outside the scope of this document.






=C2=A0






Much thanks to Ron for th=
is OpsDir review -- I'd completely missed the above points, and they ar=
e important to address.






=C2=A0






W






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






s/BGP speakers that do no=
t support this specification/Legacy BGP implementations



It seems that this isn't backwards compatible unless either:



- the SHOULD becomes a MUST

- the mechanism is described in this document



3) I concur with Warren Kumari's DISCUSS







-- 

last-call mailing list

last-call@ietf.org<=
/a>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call













=C2=A0




-- 






The computing scientist=
=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by the

complexities of his own making. 

=C2=A0 -- E. W. Dijkstra















--000000000000f9931105d8327035--


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From: Zhuangshunwan 
To: Ketan Talaulikar , "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)" 
CC: "int-dir@ietf.org" , Vasilenko Eduard , Ron Bonica , "last-call@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari ,  "bess@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services.all@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 10:02:58 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bess] [Last-Call] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Tony Przygienda 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 11:09:55 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
Cc: Erik Kline ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , BESS 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f1f19605d833f963"
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Subject: Re: [bess] Erik Kline's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS)
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>
>> But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be somehow
>> worse.
>>
>
> KT> It isn't necessary nor required because SRv6 locators are just IPv6
> prefixes that are already covered by IGP/BGP extensions for IPv6 routing. A
> provider that uses global IPv6 addresses in their infrastructure (e.g. for
> their BGP and other routing sessions, on their router links and loopback,
> for DHCP, AAA, etc.) already do routing for those prefixes via IGP/BGP.
> These are not advertised (nor leaked) out into the Internet since doing so
> can result in attacks on their internal network and infrastructure. They
> are protected via BGP configuration to stop leaks and then again by ACLs at
> Internet Border Routers to prevent attacks via the data path. This still
> remains the case to be done for SRv6 locators - they are similarly the
> service provider's "internal" infrastructure.
>
>
I'm confounded by the recent line of reasoning  of SRv6 proponents.  An
IPv6 address is NOT a service access point, it's a routable address,
history shows us that we can protect against services on the device being
attacked through that (though it took some work like proper ICMP handling).
SRv6 endpoints here are really service endpoints, unless we have a CUG
security architecture in place, how do we protect services here without
having CUG style filters on the whole edge?  with SRv6 services giving
people a service access point and a tunneling technology where someone via
v6 routing can built a tunnel to hit the service is a different beast
altogether than protecting reachability (routable addresses) and I fear
pretty soon we're looking @ routers going very, very deep into the "IPv6"
packet to make sure there aren't some magic options on the packet
source-routing it in funky ways towards service endpoints that will accept
the packet.

--- tony

--000000000000f1f19605d833f963
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=




But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be someho=
w worse.

KT> It isn't necessary =
nor required because SRv6 locators are just IPv6 prefixes that are already =
covered by IGP/BGP extensions for IPv6 routing. A provider that uses global=
 IPv6 addresses in their infrastructure (e.g. for their BGP and other routi=
ng sessions, on their router links and loopback, for DHCP, AAA, etc.) alrea=
dy do routing for those prefixes via IGP/BGP. These are not advertised (nor=
 leaked) out into the Internet since doing so can result in attacks on thei=
r internal network and infrastructure. They are protected via BGP configura=
tion to stop leaks and then again by ACLs at Internet Border Routers to pre=
vent attacks via the data path. This still remains the case to be done for =
SRv6 locators - they are similarly the service provider's "interna=
l" infrastructure.


I'm confounded by the recent line of reasoning=C2=A0 of SRv6 propone=
nts.=C2=A0 An IPv6 address is NOT a service access point, it's a routab=
le address, history shows us that we can protect against services on the de=
vice being attacked through that (though it took some work like proper ICMP=
 handling). SRv6 endpoints here are really service endpoints, unless we hav=
e a CUG security architecture in place, how do we protect services here wit=
hout having CUG style filters on the whole edge?=C2=A0 with SRv6 services g=
iving people a service access point and a tunneling technology where someon=
e via v6 routing can built a tunnel to hit the service is a different beast=
 altogether than protecting reachability (routable addresses) and I fear pr=
etty soon we're looking @ routers going very, very deep into the "=
IPv6" packet to make sure there aren't some magic options on the p=
acket source-routing it in funky ways towards service endpoints that will a=
ccept the packet. 

--- tony 


--000000000000f1f19605d833f963--


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 16:07:22 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Tony Przygienda 
Cc: Erik Kline ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , BESS 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ad9d3005d8345a0a"
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Subject: Re: [bess] Erik Kline's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS)
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--000000000000ad9d3005d8345a0a
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Hi Tony,

My apologies, but I am not able to understand your emails entirely. I
wonder if this text below helps explain:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8754#section-5.1

Thanks,
Ketan


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 3:40 PM Tony Przygienda  wrote:

>
>
>
>>
>>> But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be somehow
>>> worse.
>>>
>>
>> KT> It isn't necessary nor required because SRv6 locators are just IPv6
>> prefixes that are already covered by IGP/BGP extensions for IPv6 routing. A
>> provider that uses global IPv6 addresses in their infrastructure (e.g. for
>> their BGP and other routing sessions, on their router links and loopback,
>> for DHCP, AAA, etc.) already do routing for those prefixes via IGP/BGP.
>> These are not advertised (nor leaked) out into the Internet since doing so
>> can result in attacks on their internal network and infrastructure. They
>> are protected via BGP configuration to stop leaks and then again by ACLs at
>> Internet Border Routers to prevent attacks via the data path. This still
>> remains the case to be done for SRv6 locators - they are similarly the
>> service provider's "internal" infrastructure.
>>
>>
> I'm confounded by the recent line of reasoning  of SRv6 proponents.  An
> IPv6 address is NOT a service access point, it's a routable address,
> history shows us that we can protect against services on the device being
> attacked through that (though it took some work like proper ICMP handling).
> SRv6 endpoints here are really service endpoints, unless we have a CUG
> security architecture in place, how do we protect services here without
> having CUG style filters on the whole edge?  with SRv6 services giving
> people a service access point and a tunneling technology where someone via
> v6 routing can built a tunnel to hit the service is a different beast
> altogether than protecting reachability (routable addresses) and I fear
> pretty soon we're looking @ routers going very, very deep into the "IPv6"
> packet to make sure there aren't some magic options on the packet
> source-routing it in funky ways towards service endpoints that will accept
> the packet.
>
> --- tony
>

--000000000000ad9d3005d8345a0a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Tony,

My apologies, but I am not abl=
e to understand your emails entirely. I wonder if this text below helps exp=
lain:=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8754#section-5.1

Thanks,
Ketan


On Thu, Feb 1=
7, 2022 at 3:40 PM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<=
br>


<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be someho=
w worse.

KT> It isn't necessary =
nor required because SRv6 locators are just IPv6 prefixes that are already =
covered by IGP/BGP extensions for IPv6 routing. A provider that uses global=
 IPv6 addresses in their infrastructure (e.g. for their BGP and other routi=
ng sessions, on their router links and loopback, for DHCP, AAA, etc.) alrea=
dy do routing for those prefixes via IGP/BGP. These are not advertised (nor=
 leaked) out into the Internet since doing so can result in attacks on thei=
r internal network and infrastructure. They are protected via BGP configura=
tion to stop leaks and then again by ACLs at Internet Border Routers to pre=
vent attacks via the data path. This still remains the case to be done for =
SRv6 locators - they are similarly the service provider's "interna=
l" infrastructure.


I'm confounded by the recent line of reasoning=C2=A0 of SRv6 propone=
nts.=C2=A0 An IPv6 address is NOT a service access point, it's a routab=
le address, history shows us that we can protect against services on the de=
vice being attacked through that (though it took some work like proper ICMP=
 handling). SRv6 endpoints here are really service endpoints, unless we hav=
e a CUG security architecture in place, how do we protect services here wit=
hout having CUG style filters on the whole edge?=C2=A0 with SRv6 services g=
iving people a service access point and a tunneling technology where someon=
e via v6 routing can built a tunnel to hit the service is a different beast=
 altogether than protecting reachability (routable addresses) and I fear pr=
etty soon we're looking @ routers going very, very deep into the "=
IPv6" packet to make sure there aren't some magic options on the p=
acket source-routing it in funky ways towards service endpoints that will a=
ccept the packet. 

--- tony 




--000000000000ad9d3005d8345a0a--


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Tony Przygienda 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 11:48:23 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
Cc: Erik Kline ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , BESS 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Erik Kline's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS)
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--00000000000083ae9f05d8348376
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Ketan, yepp, 5.1.2 is roughly the CUG via ACL, add to it per service
protection (as in some external A can talk to service X but external B
cannot which now starts to push you into fragment the SRv6 "prefix" into
"per service space" if you want to aggregate), multiply that by the
downstream-upstream if you want to cross providers AFAIS (as in BGP
flowspec up/down shorewalling) and you have a pretty nice combinatorial
space. And BTW, source address is easily spoofed given the lack of BCP
implementations in the real world and with source routing technology one
can land those packets in unexpected places via unexpected routes. All that
looks to me like nothing comparable to a leaked internal loopback today
which was my whole point as in fallacy by  faulty analogy.

Unless I lost the thread completely which, given the amount of machinery
fielded by now ;-) could be excusable ...

-- tony


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 11:37 AM Ketan Talaulikar 
wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>
> My apologies, but I am not able to understand your emails entirely. I
> wonder if this text below helps explain:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8754#section-5.1
>
> Thanks,
> Ketan
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 3:40 PM Tony Przygienda 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be somehow
>>>> worse.
>>>>
>>>
>>> KT> It isn't necessary nor required because SRv6 locators are just IPv6
>>> prefixes that are already covered by IGP/BGP extensions for IPv6 routing. A
>>> provider that uses global IPv6 addresses in their infrastructure (e.g. for
>>> their BGP and other routing sessions, on their router links and loopback,
>>> for DHCP, AAA, etc.) already do routing for those prefixes via IGP/BGP.
>>> These are not advertised (nor leaked) out into the Internet since doing so
>>> can result in attacks on their internal network and infrastructure. They
>>> are protected via BGP configuration to stop leaks and then again by ACLs at
>>> Internet Border Routers to prevent attacks via the data path. This still
>>> remains the case to be done for SRv6 locators - they are similarly the
>>> service provider's "internal" infrastructure.
>>>
>>>
>> I'm confounded by the recent line of reasoning  of SRv6 proponents.  An
>> IPv6 address is NOT a service access point, it's a routable address,
>> history shows us that we can protect against services on the device being
>> attacked through that (though it took some work like proper ICMP handling).
>> SRv6 endpoints here are really service endpoints, unless we have a CUG
>> security architecture in place, how do we protect services here without
>> having CUG style filters on the whole edge?  with SRv6 services giving
>> people a service access point and a tunneling technology where someone via
>> v6 routing can built a tunnel to hit the service is a different beast
>> altogether than protecting reachability (routable addresses) and I fear
>> pretty soon we're looking @ routers going very, very deep into the "IPv6"
>> packet to make sure there aren't some magic options on the packet
>> source-routing it in funky ways towards service endpoints that will accept
>> the packet.
>>
>> --- tony
>>
>

--00000000000083ae9f05d8348376
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Ketan, yepp, 5.1.2 is roughly the CUG via ACL, add to=
 it per service protection (as in some external A can talk to service X but=
 external B cannot which now starts to push you into fragment the SRv6 &quo=
t;prefix" into "per service space" if you want to aggregate)=
, multiply that by the downstream-upstream if you want to cross providers A=
FAIS (as in BGP flowspec up/down shorewalling) and you have a pretty nice c=
ombinatorial space. And BTW, source address is easily spoofed given the lac=
k of BCP implementations in the real world and with source routing technolo=
gy one can land those packets in unexpected places via unexpected routes. A=
ll that looks to me like nothing comparable to a leaked internal loopback t=
oday which was my whole point as in fallacy by=C2=A0 faulty analogy. 

Unless I lost the thread completely which, given th=
e amount of machinery fielded by now ;-) could be excusable ... 
<=
div>
-- tony 
=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 17, 2=
022 at 11:37 AM Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tony,

My apo=
logies, but I am not able to understand your emails entirely. I wonder if t=
his text below helps explain:=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/rfc8754#section-5.1

Thanks,
Ketan


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 3:40 PM Tony Przygien=
da <tonysietf@g=
mail.com> wrote:


=




But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be someho=
w worse.

KT> It isn't necessary =
nor required because SRv6 locators are just IPv6 prefixes that are already =
covered by IGP/BGP extensions for IPv6 routing. A provider that uses global=
 IPv6 addresses in their infrastructure (e.g. for their BGP and other routi=
ng sessions, on their router links and loopback, for DHCP, AAA, etc.) alrea=
dy do routing for those prefixes via IGP/BGP. These are not advertised (nor=
 leaked) out into the Internet since doing so can result in attacks on thei=
r internal network and infrastructure. They are protected via BGP configura=
tion to stop leaks and then again by ACLs at Internet Border Routers to pre=
vent attacks via the data path. This still remains the case to be done for =
SRv6 locators - they are similarly the service provider's "interna=
l" infrastructure.


I'm confounded by the recent line of reasoning=C2=A0 of SRv6 propone=
nts.=C2=A0 An IPv6 address is NOT a service access point, it's a routab=
le address, history shows us that we can protect against services on the de=
vice being attacked through that (though it took some work like proper ICMP=
 handling). SRv6 endpoints here are really service endpoints, unless we hav=
e a CUG security architecture in place, how do we protect services here wit=
hout having CUG style filters on the whole edge?=C2=A0 with SRv6 services g=
iving people a service access point and a tunneling technology where someon=
e via v6 routing can built a tunnel to hit the service is a different beast=
 altogether than protecting reachability (routable addresses) and I fear pr=
etty soon we're looking @ routers going very, very deep into the "=
IPv6" packet to make sure there aren't some magic options on the p=
acket source-routing it in funky ways towards service endpoints that will a=
ccept the packet. 

--- tony 






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From: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
To: John Scudder , The IESG 
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [bess] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi John

Regarding comment (1), we sent a notice to the IDR WG at WG Adoption time:

[Idr] FW: [bess] WG adoption and IPR poll for draft-dawra-bess-srv6-service=
s-02 (ietf.org)


Regards

Matthew

From: John Scudder via Datatracker 
Date: Wednesday, 16 February 2022 at 21:39
To: The IESG 
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org , bess-chairs@ietf.org , bess@ietf.org , Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) , Bocci, Ma=
tthew (Nokia - GB) 
Subject: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with =
DISCUSS and COMMENT)
John Scudder has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

1. The shepherd writeup for this document says =93It also received an RTG D=
IR
review and cross-reviewed with the IDR working group=94. Searching in my ID=
R
inbox and the IDR mailing list archives, I don=92t find any sign of the
cross-review =97 can you please point me to it?

2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looked into is, th=
e
document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the NLRI to carry =
the
Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively split across th=
e
NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential error modes if th=
e
Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the NLRI is retai=
ned?

(An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be to define a =
new
NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively repurposing fie=
lds
within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Such an NLRI ty=
pe
would, for example, presumably state in its specification that if it was
received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that would constitut=
e an
error.)

3. As Warren Kumari points out in his DISCUSS, =93leaks happen=94. Subseque=
nt
discussion turned quickly to the assertion that no, they don=92t, in VPN ad=
dress
families. Let=92s accept that claim for the sake of conversation. It=92s st=
ill the
case that sometimes (often?) routes are distributed from VPN address famili=
es
into the Global Internet table. When this is done, by default, all the path
attributes come along for the ride. Anyone who thinks this is just a
hypothetical case might want to look back to (for example) significant netw=
ork
outages that were caused around a decade ago by leakage of BGP Attribute 12=
8
(ATTR_SET, RFC 6368) into the global Internet.

The SIDs contained in these if-they-were-to-leak routes potentially give an
attacker a means of directing packets into a VPN customer=92s internal netw=
ork.

4. Speaking of Warren=92s DISCUSS, the shepherd=92s writeup indicates =93so=
lid [WG]
consensus=94; however, there doesn=92t seem to be consensus even amongst th=
e
authors as to whether Sections 5.3 and 5.4 are appropriate. This is a fairl=
y
fundamental disagreement! An illustration of the disagreement is
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/K1JKxGn19BXALs3rUzUAaGTZi0Y/:

=93So I can see why some people may have thought oh since transport in SRv6=
 comes
for free let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes I can=
 see
that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to enable), =
*but
I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here.* This comes as a
consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI (perhaps new form=
at
and new SAFI) to an attribute.=94

(Emphasis added.)

It's of course possible for an author to be in the rough as regards consens=
us,
just as any other WG contributor, but it's a little unusual, and this
disagreement doesn't even seem to have been previously aired. For this reas=
on,
I have to question the strength of the consensus behind this document, and =
ask
the WG chairs to weigh in regarding whether consensus on at least this poin=
t
needs to be checked before we proceed forward.

5. Finally, I have to question the length of the author list. As I=92m sure=
 you
know, the guidance is to limit author lists to no more than five, other tha=
n
under unusual circumstances. I would have expected to find an explanation o=
f
the circumstances around the author list of this document in the shepherd
writeup; there is none. (It=92s a specific check item in Guidelines to Auth=
ors of
Internet-Drafts, https://www.ietf.org/how/ids/guidelines/)

The easiest way to resolve this would be to trim the author list per the
suggestions in RFC 7322 =A74.1.1, of course.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

1. I support Warren Kumari=92s DISCUSS.

2. (Further comments TBD and I apologize for not providing them now; I want=
ed
to get this sent off though.)



--_000_VI1PR0701MB69916CDDF1AE8585ABE89CF4EB369VI1PR0701MB6991_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi John


 


Regarding comment (1), we sent a notice to the IDR WG at WG Adoptio=
n time:


 


[Idr] FW: [=
bess] WG adoption and IPR poll for draft-dawra-bess-srv6-services-02 (ietf.=
org)


 


 


Regards


 


Matthew


 




From:
John Scudder via Da=
tatracker <noreply@ietf.org>

Date: Wednesday, 16 February 2022 at 21:39

To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>

Cc: draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-srv6-=
services@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, b=
ess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew=
.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>

Subject: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11:=
 (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)






John Scudder has entered the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



1. The shepherd writeup for this document says =93It also received an RTG D=
IR

review and cross-reviewed with the IDR working group=94. Searching in my ID=
R

inbox and the IDR mailing list archives, I don=92t find any sign of the

cross-review =97 can you please point me to it?



2. One area of concern I would have hoped IDR might have looked into is, th=
e

document makes a creative use of the MPLS Label field of the NLRI to carry =
the

Function part of the SID. This means the SID is effectively split across th=
e

NLRI and the Prefix-SID attribute. What are the potential error modes if th=
e

Prefix-SID attribute should be lost from the route, while the NLRI is retai=
ned?



(An obvious way of addressing this particular concern would be to define a =
new

NLRI type with the desired semantics, instead of creatively repurposing fie=
lds

within an existing NLRI type contrary to their definitions. Such an NLRI ty=
pe

would, for example, presumably state in its specification that if it was
received without an accompanying Prefix-SID attribute, that would constitut=
e an

error.)



3. As Warren Kumari points out in his DISCUSS, =93leaks happen=94. Subseque=
nt

discussion turned quickly to the assertion that no, they don=92t, in VPN ad=
dress

families. Let=92s accept that claim for the sake of conversation. It=92s st=
ill the

case that sometimes (often?) routes are distributed from VPN address famili=
es

into the Global Internet table. When this is done, by default, all the path=


attributes come along for the ride. Anyone who thinks this is just a

hypothetical case might want to look back to (for example) significant netw=
ork

outages that were caused around a decade ago by leakage of BGP Attribute 12=
8

(ATTR_SET, RFC 6368) into the global Internet.



The SIDs contained in these if-they-were-to-leak routes potentially give an=


attacker a means of directing packets into a VPN customer=92s internal netw=
ork.



4. Speaking of Warren=92s DISCUSS, the shepherd=92s writeup indicates =93so=
lid [WG]

consensus=94; however, there doesn=92t seem to be consensus even amongst th=
e

authors as to whether Sections 5.3 and 5.4 are appropriate. This is a fairl=
y

fundamental disagreement! An illustration of the disagreement is

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/K1JKxGn19BXALs3rUzUAaG=
TZi0Y/:



=93So I can see why some people may have thought oh since transport in SRv6=
 comes

for free let's load it with services in an attribute and be done. Yes I can=
 see

that flattening this make it potentially easier (one less SAFI to enable), =
*but

I am not sure we have reached a broad agreement here.* This comes as a

consequence of moving service prefixes from MP_REACH_NLRI (perhaps new form=
at

and new SAFI) to an attribute.=94



(Emphasis added.)



It's of course possible for an author to be in the rough as regards consens=
us,

just as any other WG contributor, but it's a little unusual, and this

disagreement doesn't even seem to have been previously aired. For this reas=
on,

I have to question the strength of the consensus behind this document, and =
ask

the WG chairs to weigh in regarding whether consensus on at least this poin=
t

needs to be checked before we proceed forward.



5. Finally, I have to question the length of the author list. As I=92m sure=
 you

know, the guidance is to limit author lists to no more than five, other tha=
n

under unusual circumstances. I would have expected to find an explanation o=
f

the circumstances around the author list of this document in the shepherd
writeup; there is none. (It=92s a specific check item in Guidelines to Auth=
ors of

Internet-Drafts, http=
s://www.ietf.org/how/ids/guidelines/)



The easiest way to resolve this would be to trim the author list per the
suggestions in RFC 7322 =A74.1.1, of course.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



1. I support Warren Kumari=92s DISCUSS.



2. (Further comments TBD and I apologize for not providing them now; I want=
ed

to get this sent off though.)














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In-Reply-To: 
From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 07:14:23 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org, BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Ketan,

On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 12:19 AM Ketan Talaulikar 
wrote:

> This document covers several BGP services and has received contributions
> from several people over the past 5 years. The authors will discuss and get
> back on the trimming of the front page list.
>

The limit of 5 is not a hard limit, but we do encourage people to stick to
it.  Mostly I'm just checking in with Martin here to ensure this is seen as
a necessary exception.

-MSK

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Hi Ketan,

On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 12:19 AM Ketan T=
alaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.co=
m> wrote:
This document covers several BGP services and has receive=
d contributions from several people over the past 5 years. The authors will=
 discuss and get back on the trimming of the front page list.

The limit of 5 is not a hard limit, but we do enco=
urage people to stick to it.=C2=A0 Mostly I'm just checking in with Mar=
tin here to ensure this is seen as a necessary exception.

-MSK


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Warren Kumari 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 09:14:13 -0600
Message-ID: 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
Cc: Andrew - IETF , Robert Raszuk , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , BESS 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 11:54 PM Ketan Talaulikar 
wrote:

> Hi Warren/All,
>
> This draft specifies broadly two types of BGP Services over SRv6:
>
> A) VPN Services (L3VPN & EVPN) - Sec 5.1, 5.2 & 6
> B) Global Internet Services - Sec 5.3, 5.4
>
> As explained by my co-author Robert, the operations and mechanisms for VP=
N
> services are similar to what we've had with MPLS. I believe we are all on
> the same page on this one based on the discussions between Andrew and
> Robert and that there is no new concern as far as (A).
>

Actually, no, I don't think that we are -- if I, as an attacker, somehow
know that VPN x uses MPLS labels Y, that's interesting, but not
particularly valuable -- because of the "fail closed" nature of MPLS (it's
a different protocol, and needs explicit and intentional action to enable
on an interface)  it's really hard for me to "inject" an MPLS packet and
route it into your network. With SRv6, if the SIDs leak, I can construct a
normal v6 packet and route it towards you. Yes, handwave handwave the RFCs
say that you MUST filter at your edges and that the filtering MUST always
be perfect handwave limited domain handwave -- but it's putting a large
amount of faith in operator perfection.

Also, if I, as an attacker get access to a "server" in the provider network
(noc workstation, billing machine, random admin PC, etc), with MPLS it's
very unlikely to be part of the MPLS domain, but  an SRv6 domain is much
more likely to be "squishy" and more likely to encompass parts of the
"enterprise" type systems.

W


>
> Now (B) does bring in filtering aspects (as mentioned in the security
> considerations) to ensure that the SRv6 block that is meant for use
> internal to the operator's network (i.e. SR domain) does not get
> leaked/advertised out from the default table on the Internet Border Route=
r
> (IBR) over to an eBGP peer. This is similar to the precautions that
> operators take today to prevent their infrastructure addresses from being
> leaked to the Internet. The filters in BGP are also accompanied by ACLs a=
t
> the IBRs to prevent traffic destined for those infrastructure IPs from
> entering into the operator network. This is the same in the case of SRv6 =
as
> well.
>
> I hope that clarifies and we can update the text to convey these aspects
> better.
>
> Thanks,
> Ketan
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:21 AM Andrew - IETF 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> 5.3 Also opens the door to SAFI 1 =E2=80=93 since you can v6 over v4 usi=
ng AFI  1
>>  / SAFI 1 using what is defined in RFC8950, in fact, it is explicit.
>>
>>
>>
>> Section 5.3 is titled Global IPv4 over SRv6 core =E2=80=93 this correlat=
es with
>> the example in section 6.1 of RFC8950 =E2=80=93 which states:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    The extensions defined in this document may be used as discussed in
>>
>>    [RFC5565 ] for the int=
erconnection of IPv4 islands over an IPv6
>>
>>    backbone.  In this application, Address Family Border Routers (AFBRs;
>>
>>    as defined in [RFC4925 ]) advertise IPv4 NLRI in the MP_REACH_NLRI
>>
>>    along with an IPv6 next hop.
>>
>>
>>
>>    The MP_REACH_NLRI is encoded with:
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  AFI =3D 1
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  SAFI =3D 1
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  Length of Next Hop Address field =3D 16 (or 32)
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  Next Hop Address =3D IPv6 address of the next hop
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  NLRI =3D IPv4 routes
>>
>>
>>
>>    During BGP Capability Advertisement, the PE routers would include the
>>
>>    following fields in the Capabilities Optional Parameter:
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  Capability Code set to "Extended Next Hop Encoding"
>>
>>
>>
>>    *  Capability Value containing >
>>       AFI=3D2>
>>
>>
>>
>> As I say, if you were to remove the references to global and 5.3/5.4
>> which explicitly reference it and bring SAFI 1 into play =E2=80=93 there=
 would be
>> far less concern from my side, I can=E2=80=99t speak for anyone else, bu=
t that
>> would be my feeling
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Robert Raszuk 
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 9:37 PM
>> *To:* Andrew - IETF 
>> *Cc:* Warren Kumari ; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <
>> matthew.bocci@nokia.com>; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
>> bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG ; BESS 
>> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>>
>>
>> When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from section 2 which says:
>>
>>
>>
>> - - -
>>
>>
>>
>>    The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-
>>    SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2
>>    services.
>>
>>    o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>>       SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received with a Layer
>>       3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
>>       [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY be encoded, but
>>       not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.
>>
>>    o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>>       SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
>>       Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors
>>       which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
>>       End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.
>>
>>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>>    defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
>>    [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.
>>
>>    The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] with SRv6
>>    is outside the scope of this document.
>>
>>
>>
>> - - -
>>
>>
>>
>> This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128
>> and SAFI 70.
>>
>>
>>
>> To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the wild. Also SAF=
I
>> 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section 5.4 and use of
>> global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have to say that I have very similar readings on parts of the draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93
>>
>>
>>
>> 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem to indicate AFI 1 /=
 SAFI 4
>>
>> 5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
>>
>> 5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows advertisement over S=
AFI 1, 2 or 4
>>
>> 5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refers to AFI 2 / SAFI 1=
.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 i=
t doesn=E2=80=99t
>> =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agree with the thoughts expressed in W=
arrens
>> Discuss.  If I am wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help m=
e
>> understand this better, and then lets potentially see if we can work up
>> some wording that would clarify this if that is what is required.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* iesg  *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
>> *To:* Warren Kumari 
>> *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ;
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG <
>> iesg@ietf.org>; BESS 
>> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Warren,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start discussing it perhaps it
>> would be good to align on what this document really defines as I am sens=
ing
>> from your description there can be some disconnect (modulo some text may=
 be
>> indeed misleading in the draft).
>>
>>
>>
>> You said:
>>
>>
>>
>> > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the
>> SID=E2=80=99s
>> > contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
>> available to
>> > the public into perpetuity.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines
>> extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not used to peer outside=
 of
>> a domain, collection of domains under same administration +
>> of course inter-as also could happen.
>>
>>
>>
>> With that being said I do not see risk that due to leaking there could b=
e
>> a situation where customer networks are exposed in any way externally -
>> leaving alone that to even get at the transport level to the customer
>> facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from outside. But this is o=
ut
>> of scope of this document as here the focus is not on underlay but overl=
ay.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little piece perhaps
>> misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 whi=
ch
>> defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
>> clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other co-authors beli=
eve
>> this is applicable to the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be
>> valid.
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
>> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions=
/
>> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE
>> routers
>> using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
>> trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes
>> within a
>> single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that the
>> BGP
>> service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP
>> sessions
>> are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to
>> (from
>> RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST
>> NOT be
>> leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."
>>
>> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
>> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
>> available to
>> the public into perpetuity.
>>
>> While the document states that border filtering should protect against
>> traffic
>> injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure,
>> there is
>> the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all
>> bets are
>> off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject
>> traffic
>> into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface =
to
>> include the customer's networks too.
>>
>> Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, the=
y
>> have
>> to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any
>> border
>> node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and
>> machine
>> within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply
>> saying
>> that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't
>> occur, when
>> the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from
>> seems to
>> not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a
>> missing
>> ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot in=
,
>> so
>> that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my
>> understand how
>> this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
>>
>>

--=20
The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by =
the
complexities of his own making.
  -- E. W. Dijkstra

--0000000000003aaadb05d8383a6f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 11:54 PM Keta=
n Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail=
.com> wrote:
Hi Warren/All,

This draft specifies=
 broadly two types of BGP Services over SRv6:

A) V=
PN Services (L3VPN & EVPN) - Sec 5.1, 5.2 & 6
B) Global I=
nternet Services - Sec 5.3, 5.4

As explained by my=
 co-author Robert, the operations and mechanisms for VPN services are simil=
ar to what we've had with MPLS. I believe we are all on the same page o=
n this one based on the discussions between Andrew and Robert and that ther=
e is no new concern as far as (A).

<=
div>Actually, no, I don't think that we are -- if I, as an attacker, so=
mehow know that VPN x uses MPLS labels Y, that's interesting, but not p=
articularly=C2=A0valuable -- because of the "fail closed" nature =
of MPLS (it's a different=C2=A0protocol, and needs explicit and intenti=
onal action to enable on an interface)=C2=A0 it's really hard for me to=
 "inject" an MPLS packet and route it into your network. With SRv=
6, if the SIDs leak, I can construct a normal v6 packet and route it toward=
s you. Yes, handwave handwave the RFCs say that you MUST filter at your edg=
es and that the filtering MUST always be perfect handwave limited domain ha=
ndwave -- but it's putting a large amount of faith in operator perfecti=
on.

Also, if I, as an attacker get access to a &qu=
ot;server" in the provider network (noc workstation, billing machine, =
random admin PC, etc), with MPLS it's very unlikely to be part of the M=
PLS domain, but=C2=A0 an SRv6 domain is much more likely to be "squish=
y" and more likely to encompass parts of the "enterprise" ty=
pe systems.

W
=C2=A0

No=
w (B) does bring in filtering aspects (as mentioned in the security conside=
rations) to ensure that the SRv6 block that is meant for use internal to th=
e operator's network (i.e. SR domain) does not get leaked/advertised ou=
t from the default table on the Internet Border Router (IBR) over to an eBG=
P peer. This is similar to the precautions that operators take today to pre=
vent their infrastructure addresses from being leaked to the Internet. The =
filters in BGP are also accompanied by ACLs at the IBRs to prevent traffic =
destined for those infrastructure IPs from entering into the operator netwo=
rk. This is the same in the case of SRv6 as well.

=
I hope that clarifies and we can update the text to convey these aspects be=
tter.

Thanks,
Ketan

=


=
On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:21 AM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech&=
gt; wrote:











Hi Robert, 


=C2=A0


5.3 Also opens the door to SAFI 1 =E2=80=93 since yo=
u can v6 over v4 using AFI =C2=A01 =C2=A0/ SAFI 1 using what is defined in =
RFC8950, in fact, it is explicit.


=C2=A0


Section 5.3 is titled Global IPv4 over SRv6 core =E2=
=80=93 this correlates with the example in section 6.1 of RFC8950 =E2=80=93=
 which states:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The extensions defined in thi=
s document may be used as discussed in


=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC5565] for the interconnection of IPv4 islands ove=
r an IPv6


=C2=A0=C2=A0 backbone.=C2=A0 In this appli=
cation, Address Family Border Routers (AFBRs;


=C2=A0=C2=A0 as defined in [RFC4925]) advertise IPv4 NLRI in th=
e MP_REACH_NLRI


=C2=A0=C2=A0 along with an IPv6 next hop.<=
u>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The MP_REACH_NLRI is encoded =
with:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 AFI =3D 1


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 SAFI =3D 1<=
/u>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Length of Next Hop Ad=
dress field =3D 16 (or 32)


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Next Hop Address =3D =
IPv6 address of the next hop


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 NLRI =3D IPv4 routes<=
u>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 During BGP Capability Adverti=
sement, the PE routers would include the


=C2=A0=C2=A0 following fields in the Capab=
ilities Optional Parameter:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Capability Code set t=
o "Extended Next Hop Encoding"


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Capability Value cont=
aining <NLRI AFI=3D1, NLRI SAFI=3D1, Nexthop


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 AFI=3D2>=



=C2=A0


As I say, if you were to remove the references to gl=
obal and 5.3/5.4 which explicitly reference it and bring SAFI 1 into play =
=E2=80=93 there would be far less concern from my side, I can=E2=80=99t spe=
ak for anyone else, but that would be my feeling


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> 

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 9:37 PM

To: Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech>

Cc: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;; BESS <bess@ietf.or=
g>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Andrew,




=C2=A0






When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text fr=
om=C2=A0section 2 which says:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as tw=
o new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0services.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L3 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received =
with a Layer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC=
8950]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC9136].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MA=
Y be encoded, but

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6=
, etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L2 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet =
VPN (EVPN)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 E=
ndpoint behaviors

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2,=
 End.DX2V,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-p=
lane,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Serv=
ice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP =
NLRIs

=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Secti=
on 6.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] wi=
th SRv6

=C2=A0 =C2=A0is outside the scope of this document.






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAF=
Is mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged i=
n the wild. Also SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed se=
ction 5.4 and use of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liqu=
id.tech> wrote:










Robert,


=C2=A0


I have to say that I have very similar readings on p=
arts of the draft.


=C2=A0


Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93


=C2=A0


5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem=
 to indicate AFI 1 / SAFI 4


5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading



5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows =
advertisement over SAFI 1, 2 or 4



5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refe=
rs to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.


=C2=A0


I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1=
 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agr=
ee with the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.=C2=A0 If I am wrong abou=
t 5.3
 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me understand this better, and then l=
ets potentially see if we can work up some wording that would clarify this =
if that is what is required.


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>

Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>;
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org; The IESG <ie=
sg@ietf.org>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Warren,




=C2=A0






Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start disc=
ussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what this document really de=
fines as I am sensing from your description there
 can be some disconnect (modulo some text may be indeed=C2=A0misleading in =
the draft).=C2=A0






=C2=A0






You said:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- a=
nd when they do, the SID=E2=80=99s

> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence avai=
lable to

> the public into perpetuity.






=C2=A0






I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Leaks do happen but only within global=C2=A0AFI/SAFI=
s. This draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not u=
sed to peer outside of a domain, collection of domains
 under same administration + of=C2=A0course=C2=A0inter-as also could happen=
.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






With that=C2=A0being said I do not see risk that due=
 to leaking there could be a situation where customer networks are exposed =
in any way externally - leaving alone that to even get
 at the=C2=A0transport level to the customer facing PE is also filtered and=
 never allowed from outside. But this is out of scope of this document as h=
ere the focus is not on underlay but overlay.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little =
piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to =
RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6 with both unicast
 and VPN AFs. That needs to be made clear that it is applicable to the latt=
er only. If other co-authors believe this is applicable=C2=A0to the former =
your DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via D=
atatracker <norepl=
y@ietf.org> wrote:






Warren Kumari has enter=
ed the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between P=
E routers

using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within=
 a

single provider network).=C2=A0 Precaution should be taken to ensure that t=
he BGP

service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sess=
ions

are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related t=
o (from

RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUS=
T NOT be

leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."



However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=E2=
=80=99s

contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available=
 to

the public into perpetuity.



While the document states that border filtering should protect against traf=
fic

injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there=
 is

the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets =
are

off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic=


into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to<=
br>
include the customer's networks too.



Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they h=
ave

to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any borde=
r

node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and mac=
hine

within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply sa=
ying

that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occ=
ur, when

the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seem=
s to

not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a mis=
sing

ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot i=
n, so

that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand=
 how

this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.



























-- 
The computing scientist=E2=80=
=99s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his ow=
n making. 
=C2=A0 -- E. W. Dijkstra


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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 16:27:55 +0100
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To: Warren Kumari 
Cc: Ketan Talaulikar , Andrew - IETF ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" ,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , BESS 
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Hi Warren,

I am very sorry but I see folks are completely mixing transport layer and
service layer.

In RFC4364 you can use MPLS label for service demux and IP transport to get
to remote egress PE via any IP network including Internet.

There is nothing in L3VPNs like enabling MPLS on interface as mandatory
prerequisite. Yes many folks are confused about this and I see the same
confusion here. The service plane is completely separate from transport
layer from day one.

Kind regards,
Robert








On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 4:14 PM Warren Kumari  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 11:54 PM Ketan Talaulikar 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Warren/All,
>>
>> This draft specifies broadly two types of BGP Services over SRv6:
>>
>> A) VPN Services (L3VPN & EVPN) - Sec 5.1, 5.2 & 6
>> B) Global Internet Services - Sec 5.3, 5.4
>>
>> As explained by my co-author Robert, the operations and mechanisms for
>> VPN services are similar to what we've had with MPLS. I believe we are a=
ll
>> on the same page on this one based on the discussions between Andrew and
>> Robert and that there is no new concern as far as (A).
>>
>
> Actually, no, I don't think that we are -- if I, as an attacker, somehow
> know that VPN x uses MPLS labels Y, that's interesting, but not
> particularly valuable -- because of the "fail closed" nature of MPLS (it'=
s
> a different protocol, and needs explicit and intentional action to enable
> on an interface)  it's really hard for me to "inject" an MPLS packet and
> route it into your network. With SRv6, if the SIDs leak, I can construct =
a
> normal v6 packet and route it towards you. Yes, handwave handwave the RFC=
s
> say that you MUST filter at your edges and that the filtering MUST always
> be perfect handwave limited domain handwave -- but it's putting a large
> amount of faith in operator perfection.
>
> Also, if I, as an attacker get access to a "server" in the provider
> network (noc workstation, billing machine, random admin PC, etc), with MP=
LS
> it's very unlikely to be part of the MPLS domain, but  an SRv6 domain is
> much more likely to be "squishy" and more likely to encompass parts of th=
e
> "enterprise" type systems.
>
> W
>
>
>>
>> Now (B) does bring in filtering aspects (as mentioned in the security
>> considerations) to ensure that the SRv6 block that is meant for use
>> internal to the operator's network (i.e. SR domain) does not get
>> leaked/advertised out from the default table on the Internet Border Rout=
er
>> (IBR) over to an eBGP peer. This is similar to the precautions that
>> operators take today to prevent their infrastructure addresses from bein=
g
>> leaked to the Internet. The filters in BGP are also accompanied by ACLs =
at
>> the IBRs to prevent traffic destined for those infrastructure IPs from
>> entering into the operator network. This is the same in the case of SRv6=
 as
>> well.
>>
>> I hope that clarifies and we can update the text to convey these aspects
>> better.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ketan
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:21 AM Andrew - IETF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 5.3 Also opens the door to SAFI 1 =E2=80=93 since you can v6 over v4 us=
ing AFI
>>>  1  / SAFI 1 using what is defined in RFC8950, in fact, it is explicit.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Section 5.3 is titled Global IPv4 over SRv6 core =E2=80=93 this correla=
tes with
>>> the example in section 6.1 of RFC8950 =E2=80=93 which states:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    The extensions defined in this document may be used as discussed in
>>>
>>>    [RFC5565 ] for the in=
terconnection of IPv4 islands over an IPv6
>>>
>>>    backbone.  In this application, Address Family Border Routers (AFBRs=
;
>>>
>>>    as defined in [RFC4925 ]) advertise IPv4 NLRI in the MP_REACH_NLRI
>>>
>>>    along with an IPv6 next hop.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    The MP_REACH_NLRI is encoded with:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    *  AFI =3D 1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    *  SAFI =3D 1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    *  Length of Next Hop Address field =3D 16 (or 32)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    *  Next Hop Address =3D IPv6 address of the next hop
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    *  NLRI =3D IPv4 routes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    During BGP Capability Advertisement, the PE routers would include th=
e
>>>
>>>    following fields in the Capabilities Optional Parameter:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    *  Capability Code set to "Extended Next Hop Encoding"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    *  Capability Value containing >>
>>>       AFI=3D2>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As I say, if you were to remove the references to global and 5.3/5.4
>>> which explicitly reference it and bring SAFI 1 into play =E2=80=93 ther=
e would be
>>> far less concern from my side, I can=E2=80=99t speak for anyone else, b=
ut that
>>> would be my feeling
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Robert Raszuk 
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 9:37 PM
>>> *To:* Andrew - IETF 
>>> *Cc:* Warren Kumari ; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <
>>> matthew.bocci@nokia.com>; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
>>> bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG ; BESS 
>>> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Andrew,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from section 2 which says=
:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - - -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-
>>>    SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2
>>>    services.
>>>
>>>    o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>>>       SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>>>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received with a Laye=
r
>>>       3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
>>>       [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY be encoded, bu=
t
>>>       not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6, etc.
>>>
>>>    o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID information for
>>>       SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>>>       functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet VPN (EVPN)
>>>       Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behavior=
s
>>>       which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2, End.DX2V,
>>>       End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.
>>>
>>>    When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-plane,
>>>    it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Service
>>>    TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP NLRIs
>>>    defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
>>>    [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Section 6.
>>>
>>>    The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] with SRv=
6
>>>    is outside the scope of this document.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - - -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs mainly SAFI 128
>>> and SAFI 70.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the wild. Also
>>> SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section 5.4 and use o=
f
>>> global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Many thx,
>>>
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Robert,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have to say that I have very similar readings on parts of the draft.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem to indicate AFI 1 =
/ SAFI 4
>>>
>>> 5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
>>>
>>> 5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows advertisement over =
SAFI 1, 2 or 4
>>>
>>> 5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refers to AFI 2 / SAFI =
1.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 =
it
>>> doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agree with the though=
ts expressed in
>>> Warrens Discuss.  If I am wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat a=
nd help me
>>> understand this better, and then lets potentially see if we can work up
>>> some wording that would clarify this if that is what is required.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* iesg  *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
>>> *To:* Warren Kumari 
>>> *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) ;
>>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG =
<
>>> iesg@ietf.org>; BESS 
>>> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Warren,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start discussing it perhaps i=
t
>>> would be good to align on what this document really defines as I am sen=
sing
>>> from your description there can be some disconnect (modulo some text ma=
y be
>>> indeed misleading in the draft).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You said:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the
>>> SID=E2=80=99s
>>> > contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
>>> available to
>>> > the public into perpetuity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This draft defines
>>> extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not used to peer outsid=
e of
>>> a domain, collection of domains under same administration +
>>> of course inter-as also could happen.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With that being said I do not see risk that due to leaking there could
>>> be a situation where customer networks are exposed in any way externall=
y -
>>> leaving alone that to even get at the transport level to the customer
>>> facing PE is also filtered and never allowed from outside. But this is =
out
>>> of scope of this document as here the focus is not on underlay but over=
lay.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little piece perhaps
>>> misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to RFC8950 wh=
ich
>>> defines use of NHv6 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be mad=
e
>>> clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other co-authors bel=
ieve
>>> this is applicable to the former your DISCUSS section would indeed be
>>> valid.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Many thx,
>>>
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via Datatracker <
>>> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
>>> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>>>
>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Please refer to
>>> https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
>>> for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>>
>>>
>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> DISCUSS:
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between PE
>>> routers
>>> using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within th=
e
>>> trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes
>>> within a
>>> single provider network).  Precaution should be taken to ensure that th=
e
>>> BGP
>>> service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP
>>> sessions
>>> are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related to
>>> (from
>>> RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUST
>>> NOT be
>>> leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."
>>>
>>> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=
=E2=80=99s
>>> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence
>>> available to
>>> the public into perpetuity.
>>>
>>> While the document states that border filtering should protect against
>>> traffic
>>> injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure,
>>> there is
>>> the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all
>>> bets are
>>> off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject
>>> traffic
>>> into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface
>>> to
>>> include the customer's networks too.
>>>
>>> Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur,
>>> they have
>>> to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any
>>> border
>>> node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and
>>> machine
>>> within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simpl=
y
>>> saying
>>> that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't
>>> occur, when
>>> the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from
>>> seems to
>>> not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a
>>> missing
>>> ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> COMMENT:
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot
>>> in, so
>>> that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my
>>> understand how
>>> this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused b=
y the
> complexities of his own making.
>   -- E. W. Dijkstra
>

--000000000000b0df2e05d838694d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Warren,

I am very sorry but I see fo=
lks are completely mixing transport layer and service=C2=A0layer.=C2=A0

In RFC4364 you can use MPLS label for service demux a=
nd IP transport to get to remote egress PE via any IP network including Int=
ernet.=C2=A0

There is nothing in L3VPNs like enabl=
ing MPLS on interface as mandatory prerequisite. Yes many folks are confuse=
d about this and I see the same confusion here. The service plane is comple=
tely separate from transport layer from day one.=C2=A0

=

Kind regards,
Robert

=C2=A0






On=
 Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 4:14 PM Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:


=

On Sun, Fe=
b 13, 2022 at 11:54 PM Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Hi Warren=
/All,

This draft specifies broadly two types of BGP Serv=
ices over SRv6:

A) VPN Services (L3VPN & EVPN)=
 - Sec 5.1, 5.2 & 6
B) Global Internet Services - Sec 5.3, 5.=
4

As explained by my co-author Robert, the operati=
ons and mechanisms for VPN services are similar to what we've had with =
MPLS. I believe we are all on the same page on this one based on the discus=
sions between Andrew and Robert and that there is no new concern as far as =
(A).

Actually, no, I don't =
think that we are -- if I, as an attacker, somehow know that VPN x uses MPL=
S labels Y, that's interesting, but not particularly=C2=A0valuable -- b=
ecause of the "fail closed" nature of MPLS (it's a different=
=C2=A0protocol, and needs explicit and intentional action to enable on an i=
nterface)=C2=A0 it's really hard for me to "inject" an MPLS p=
acket and route it into your network. With SRv6, if the SIDs leak, I can co=
nstruct a normal v6 packet and route it towards you. Yes, handwave handwave=
 the RFCs say that you MUST filter at your edges and that the filtering MUS=
T always be perfect handwave limited domain handwave -- but it's puttin=
g a large amount of faith in operator perfection.

=
Also, if I, as an attacker get access to a "server" in the provid=
er network (noc workstation, billing machine, random admin PC, etc), with M=
PLS it's very unlikely to be part of the MPLS domain, but=C2=A0 an SRv6=
 domain is much more likely to be "squishy" and more likely to en=
compass parts of the "enterprise" type systems.

W
=C2=A0

Now (B) does bring in filtering=
 aspects (as mentioned in the security considerations) to ensure that the S=
Rv6 block that is meant for use internal to the operator's network (i.e=
. SR domain) does not get leaked/advertised out from the default table on t=
he Internet Border Router (IBR) over to an eBGP peer. This is similar to th=
e precautions that operators take today to prevent their infrastructure add=
resses from being leaked to the Internet. The filters in BGP are also accom=
panied by ACLs at the IBRs to prevent traffic destined for those infrastruc=
ture IPs from entering into the operator network. This is the same in the c=
ase of SRv6 as well.

I hope that clarifies and we =
can update the text to convey these aspects better.

Thanks,
Ketan


On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:21=
 AM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech> wrote:











Hi Robert, 


=C2=A0


5.3 Also opens the door to SAFI 1 =E2=80=93 since yo=
u can v6 over v4 using AFI =C2=A01 =C2=A0/ SAFI 1 using what is defined in =
RFC8950, in fact, it is explicit.


=C2=A0


Section 5.3 is titled Global IPv4 over SRv6 core =E2=
=80=93 this correlates with the example in section 6.1 of RFC8950 =E2=80=93=
 which states:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The extensions defined in thi=
s document may be used as discussed in


=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC5565] for the interconnection of IPv4 islands ove=
r an IPv6


=C2=A0=C2=A0 backbone.=C2=A0 In this appli=
cation, Address Family Border Routers (AFBRs;


=C2=A0=C2=A0 as defined in [RFC4925]) advertise IPv4 NLRI in th=
e MP_REACH_NLRI


=C2=A0=C2=A0 along with an IPv6 next hop.<=
u>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The MP_REACH_NLRI is encoded =
with:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 AFI =3D 1


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 SAFI =3D 1<=
/u>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Length of Next Hop Ad=
dress field =3D 16 (or 32)


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Next Hop Address =3D =
IPv6 address of the next hop


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 NLRI =3D IPv4 routes<=
u>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 During BGP Capability Adverti=
sement, the PE routers would include the


=C2=A0=C2=A0 following fields in the Capab=
ilities Optional Parameter:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Capability Code set t=
o "Extended Next Hop Encoding"


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Capability Value cont=
aining <NLRI AFI=3D1, NLRI SAFI=3D1, Nexthop


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 AFI=3D2>=



=C2=A0


As I say, if you were to remove the references to gl=
obal and 5.3/5.4 which explicitly reference it and bring SAFI 1 into play =
=E2=80=93 there would be far less concern from my side, I can=E2=80=99t spe=
ak for anyone else, but that would be my feeling


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> 

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 9:37 PM

To: Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech>

Cc: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG =
<iesg@ietf.org>=
;; BESS <bess@ietf.or=
g>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Andrew,




=C2=A0






When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text fr=
om=C2=A0section 2 which says:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as tw=
o new TLVs of the BGP Prefix-

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3 and L2<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0services.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L3 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received =
with a Layer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659] [RFC=
8950]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC9136].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MA=
Y be encoded, but

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6, End.DT6=
, etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID info=
rmation for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SRv6 based L2 services.=C2=A0 It corresponds to the eq=
uivalent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet =
VPN (EVPN)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].=C2=A0 Some SRv6 E=
ndpoint behaviors

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are End.DX2,=
 End.DX2V,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6 data-p=
lane,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in SRv6 Serv=
ice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to MP-BGP =
NLRIs

=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and Secti=
on 6.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services [RFC6513] wi=
th SRv6

=C2=A0 =C2=A0is outside the scope of this document.






=C2=A0






- - -=C2=A0






=C2=A0






This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAF=
Is mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged i=
n the wild. Also SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this draft.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed se=
ction 5.4 and use of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liqu=
id.tech> wrote:










Robert,


=C2=A0


I have to say that I have very similar readings on p=
arts of the draft.


=C2=A0


Let=E2=80=99s look at it =E2=80=93


=C2=A0


5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI =E2=80=93 That would seem=
 to indicate AFI 1 / SAFI 4


5.2 =E2=80=93 Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading



5.3 =E2=80=93 According to RFC8950 =E2=80=93 allows =
advertisement over SAFI 1, 2 or 4



5.4 =E2=80=93 To my reading =E2=80=93 very much refe=
rs to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.


=C2=A0


I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1=
 and 5.2 =E2=80=93 it doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=93 and therefore I have to agr=
ee with the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.=C2=A0 If I am wrong abou=
t 5.3
 and 5.4, let=E2=80=99s chat and help me understand this better, and then l=
ets potentially see if we can work up some wording that would clarify this =
if that is what is required.


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew


=C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM

To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>

Cc: Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>;
draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org;
bess-chairs@ietf.=
org; The IESG <ie=
sg@ietf.org>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Hi Warren,




=C2=A0






Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start disc=
ussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what this document really de=
fines as I am sensing from your description there
 can be some disconnect (modulo some text may be indeed=C2=A0misleading in =
the draft).=C2=A0






=C2=A0






You said:=C2=A0






=C2=A0






> However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- a=
nd when they do, the SID=E2=80=99s

> contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence avai=
lable to

> the public into perpetuity.






=C2=A0






I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.=
=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Leaks do happen but only within global=C2=A0AFI/SAFI=
s. This draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs which are not u=
sed to peer outside of a domain, collection of domains
 under same administration + of=C2=A0course=C2=A0inter-as also could happen=
.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






With that=C2=A0being said I do not see risk that due=
 to leaking there could be a situation where customer networks are exposed =
in any way externally - leaving alone that to even get
 at the=C2=A0transport level to the customer facing PE is also filtered and=
 never allowed from outside. But this is out of scope of this document as h=
ere the focus is not on underlay but overlay.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little =
piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim that it is applicable to =
RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6 with both unicast
 and VPN AFs. That needs to be made clear that it is applicable to the latt=
er only. If other co-authors believe this is applicable=C2=A0to the former =
your DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Many thx,






R.






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via D=
atatracker <norepl=
y@ietf.org> wrote:






Warren Kumari has enter=
ed the following ballot position for

draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to 
https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/

for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-ser=
vices/







----------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCUSS:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



The Security Considerations section says: "The service flows between P=
E routers

using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to be limited within the
trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or between multiple ASes within=
 a

single provider network).=C2=A0 Precaution should be taken to ensure that t=
he BGP

service information (including associated SRv6 SID) advertised via BGP sess=
ions

are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain." This is related t=
o (from

RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit routing information MUS=
T NOT be

leaked through the boundaries of the administered domain."



However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID=E2=
=80=99s

contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available=
 to

the public into perpetuity.



While the document states that border filtering should protect against traf=
fic

injection, this does not cover the case of internal compromise. Sure, there=
 is

the argument that once there is an internally compromised system, all bets =
are

off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the SIDs in e.g inject traffic=


into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand the attack surface to<=
br>
include the customer's networks too.



Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP leaks never occur, they h=
ave

to then ensure that at no point can there be any filter lapses at any borde=
r

node, and be able to guarantee the security of every device, server and mac=
hine

within the domain in order for a secure posture to be maintained. Simply sa=
ying

that precautions should be taken to make sure that route leak don't occ=
ur, when

the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b: hard to recover from seem=
s to

not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the blast radius from a mis=
sing

ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

----------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get an initial ballot i=
n, so

that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone can help my understand=
 how

this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.



























-- 
The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not t=
o get confused by the
complexities of his own making. 
=C2=A0 -- E. W=
. Dijkstra




--000000000000b0df2e05d838694d--


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From: Zhuangshunwan 
To: Robert Raszuk , Warren Kumari 
CC: Ketan Talaulikar , Andrew - IETF , "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , BESS 
Thread-Topic: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 15:41:01 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" 
To: Zhuangshunwan 
Cc: "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , BESS 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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I would presume that the general policy (which does not apply to SRv6) 
that nodes should not decapsulate  tunnel packets without configuration 
or special exemption would mean that an arbitrary MPLS node will not 
decapsualte a GRE packet and process its MPLS content.  Otherwise, all 
tunnels become major security risks.

Yours,
Joel

On 2/17/2022 10:41 AM, Zhuangshunwan wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> +1 for Robert.
> 
> Yes, especially when MPLS in GRE or MPLS in UDP is deployed, packets 
> carrying MPLS labels can traverse all IP-reachable networks and reach 
> remote PEs.
> 
> BR,
> 
> Shunwan
> 
> *From:*Robert Raszuk [mailto:robert@raszuk.net]
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 17, 2022 11:28 PM
> *To:* Warren Kumari 
> *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar ; Andrew - IETF 
> ; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) 
> ; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org; 
> bess-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG ; BESS 
> *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on 
> draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> 
> Hi Warren,
> 
> I am very sorry but I see folks are completely mixing transport layer 
> and service layer.
> 
> In RFC4364 you can use MPLS label for service demux and IP transport to 
> get to remote egress PE via any IP network including Internet.
> 
> There is nothing in L3VPNs like enabling MPLS on interface as mandatory 
> prerequisite. Yes many folks are confused about this and I see the same 
> confusion here. The service plane is completely separate from transport 
> layer from day one.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Robert
> 
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 4:14 PM Warren Kumari  > wrote:
> 
>     On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 11:54 PM Ketan Talaulikar
>     > wrote:
> 
>         Hi Warren/All,
> 
>         This draft specifies broadly two types of BGP Services over SRv6:
> 
>         A) VPN Services (L3VPN & EVPN) - Sec 5.1, 5.2 & 6
> 
>         B) Global Internet Services - Sec 5.3, 5.4
> 
>         As explained by my co-author Robert, the operations and
>         mechanisms for VPN services are similar to what we've had with
>         MPLS. I believe we are all on the same page on this one based on
>         the discussions between Andrew and Robert and that there is no
>         new concern as far as (A).
> 
>     Actually, no, I don't think that we are -- if I, as an attacker,
>     somehow know that VPN x uses MPLS labels Y, that's interesting, but
>     not particularly valuable -- because of the "fail closed" nature of
>     MPLS (it's a different protocol, and needs explicit and intentional
>     action to enable on an interface)  it's really hard for me to
>     "inject" an MPLS packet and route it into your network. With SRv6,
>     if the SIDs leak, I can construct a normal v6 packet and route it
>     towards you. Yes, handwave handwave the RFCs say that you MUST
>     filter at your edges and that the filtering MUST always be perfect
>     handwave limited domain handwave -- but it's putting a large amount
>     of faith in operator perfection.
> 
>     Also, if I, as an attacker get access to a "server" in the provider
>     network (noc workstation, billing machine, random admin PC, etc),
>     with MPLS it's very unlikely to be part of the MPLS domain, but  an
>     SRv6 domain is much more likely to be "squishy" and more likely to
>     encompass parts of the "enterprise" type systems.
> 
>     W
> 
>         Now (B) does bring in filtering aspects (as mentioned in the
>         security considerations) to ensure that the SRv6 block that is
>         meant for use internal to the operator's network (i.e. SR
>         domain) does not get leaked/advertised out from the default
>         table on the Internet Border Router (IBR) over to an eBGP peer.
>         This is similar to the precautions that operators take today to
>         prevent their infrastructure addresses from being leaked to the
>         Internet. The filters in BGP are also accompanied by ACLs at the
>         IBRs to prevent traffic destined for those infrastructure IPs
>         from entering into the operator network. This is the same in the
>         case of SRv6 as well.
> 
>         I hope that clarifies and we can update the text to convey these
>         aspects better.
> 
>         Thanks,
> 
>         Ketan
> 
>         On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:21 AM Andrew - IETF
>         > wrote:
> 
>             Hi Robert,
> 
>             5.3 Also opens the door to SAFI 1 – since you can v6 over v4
>             using AFI  1  / SAFI 1 using what is defined in RFC8950, in
>             fact, it is explicit.
> 
>             Section 5.3 is titled Global IPv4 over SRv6 core – this
>             correlates with the example in section 6.1 of RFC8950 –
>             which states:
> 
>                 The extensions defined in this document may be used as
>             discussed in
> 
>                 [RFC5565
>             ] for the
>             interconnection of IPv4 islands over an IPv6
> 
>                 backbone.  In this application, Address Family Border
>             Routers (AFBRs;
> 
>                 as defined in [RFC4925
>             ]) advertise
>             IPv4 NLRI in the MP_REACH_NLRI
> 
>                 along with an IPv6 next hop.
> 
>                 The MP_REACH_NLRI is encoded with:
> 
>                 *  AFI = 1
> 
>                 *  SAFI = 1
> 
>                 *  Length of Next Hop Address field = 16 (or 32)
> 
>                 *  Next Hop Address = IPv6 address of the next hop
> 
>                 *  NLRI = IPv4 routes
> 
>                 During BGP Capability Advertisement, the PE routers
>             would include the
> 
>                 following fields in the Capabilities Optional Parameter:
> 
>                 *  Capability Code set to "Extended Next Hop Encoding"
> 
>                 *  Capability Value containing              Nexthop
> 
>                    AFI=2>
> 
>             As I say, if you were to remove the references to global and
>             5.3/5.4 which explicitly reference it and bring SAFI 1 into
>             play – there would be far less concern from my side, I can’t
>             speak for anyone else, but that would be my feeling
> 
>             Thanks
> 
>             Andrew
> 
>             *From:*Robert Raszuk              >
>             *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 9:37 PM
>             *To:* Andrew - IETF              >
>             *Cc:* Warren Kumari              >; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)
>             >;
>             draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org
>             ;
>             bess-chairs@ietf.org ; The IESG
>             >; BESS              >
>             *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>             draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> 
>             Hi Andrew,
> 
>             When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text from section 2
>             which says:
> 
>             - - -
> 
>                 The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs of the
>             BGP Prefix-
>                 SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs for L3
>             and L2
>                 services.
> 
>                 o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID
>             information for
>                    SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>                    functionality provided by an MPLS Label when received
>             with a Layer
>                    3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659]
>             [RFC8950]
>                    [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which MAY be
>             encoded, but
>                    not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6,
>             End.DT6, etc.
> 
>                 o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID
>             information for
>                    SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the equivalent
>                    functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for Ethernet
>             VPN (EVPN)
>                    Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6
>             Endpoint behaviors
>                    which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are
>             End.DX2, End.DX2V,
>                    End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.
> 
>                 When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services over SRv6
>             data-plane,
>                 it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in
>             SRv6 Service
>                 TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute attached to
>             MP-BGP NLRIs
>                 defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950] [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
>                 [RFC9136] where applicable as described in Section 5 and
>             Section 6.
> 
>                 The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services
>             [RFC6513] with SRv6
>                 is outside the scope of this document.
> 
>             - - -
> 
>             This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs
>             mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.
> 
>             To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the
>             wild. Also SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope of this
>             draft.
> 
>             The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section
>             5.4 and use of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1
> 
>             Many thx,
> 
>             R.
> 
>             On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF
>             >
>             wrote:
> 
>                 Robert,
> 
>                 I have to say that I have very similar readings on parts
>                 of the draft.
> 
>                 Let’s look at it –
> 
>                 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI – That would seem to indicate
>                 AFI 1 / SAFI 4
> 
>                 5.2 – Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
> 
>                 5.3 – According to RFC8950 – allows advertisement over
>                 SAFI 1, 2 or 4
> 
>                 5.4 – To my reading – very much refers to AFI 2 / SAFI 1.
> 
>                 I would agree if this document limited itself to 5.1 and
>                 5.2 – it doesn’t – and therefore I have to agree with
>                 the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.  If I am
>                 wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let’s chat and help me
>                 understand this better, and then lets potentially see if
>                 we can work up some wording that would clarify this if
>                 that is what is required.
> 
>                 Thanks
> 
>                 Andrew
> 
>                 *From:*iesg                  > *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>                 *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
>                 *To:* Warren Kumari                  >
>                 *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)
>                                  >;
>                 draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org
>                 ;
>                 bess-chairs@ietf.org ; The
>                 IESG >; BESS
>                 >
>                 *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>                 draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> 
>                 Hi Warren,
> 
>                 Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start
>                 discussing it perhaps it would be good to align on what
>                 this document really defines as I am sensing from your
>                 description there can be some disconnect (modulo some
>                 text may be indeed misleading in the draft).
> 
>                 You said:
> 
>                 > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and when they do, the SID’s
>                 > contained in the leak will be logged by various systems and hence available to
>                 > the public into perpetuity.
> 
>                 I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
> 
>                 Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs. This
>                 draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs
>                 which are not used to peer outside of a domain,
>                 collection of domains under same administration +
>                 of course inter-as also could happen.
> 
>                 With that being said I do not see risk that due to
>                 leaking there could be a situation where customer
>                 networks are exposed in any way externally - leaving
>                 alone that to even get at the transport level to the
>                 customer facing PE is also filtered and never allowed
>                 from outside. But this is out of scope of this document
>                 as here the focus is not on underlay but overlay.
> 
>                 Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little
>                 piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim that
>                 it is applicable to RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6
>                 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
>                 clear that it is applicable to the latter only. If other
>                 co-authors believe this is applicable to the former your
>                 DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.
> 
>                 Many thx,
> 
>                 R.
> 
>                 On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via
>                 Datatracker >
>                 wrote:
> 
>                     Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot
>                     position for
>                     draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
> 
>                     When responding, please keep the subject line intact
>                     and reply to all
>                     email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
>                     (Feel free to cut this
>                     introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
>                     Please refer to
>                     https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
>                     
>                     for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and
>                     COMMENT positions.
> 
> 
>                     The document, along with other ballot positions, can
>                     be found here:
>                     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>                     
> 
> 
> 
>                     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>                     DISCUSS:
>                     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>                     The Security Considerations section says: "The
>                     service flows between PE routers
>                     using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are expected to
>                     be limited within the
>                     trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or
>                     between multiple ASes within a
>                     single provider network).  Precaution should be
>                     taken to ensure that the BGP
>                     service information (including associated SRv6 SID)
>                     advertised via BGP sessions
>                     are limited to peers within this trusted SR domain."
>                     This is related to (from
>                     RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit
>                     routing information MUST NOT be
>                     leaked through the boundaries of the administered
>                     domain."
> 
>                     However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and
>                     when they do, the SID’s
>                     contained in the leak will be logged by various
>                     systems and hence available to
>                     the public into perpetuity.
> 
>                     While the document states that border filtering
>                     should protect against traffic
>                     injection, this does not cover the case of internal
>                     compromise. Sure, there is
>                     the argument that once there is an internally
>                     compromised system, all bets are
>                     off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the
>                     SIDs in e.g inject traffic
>                     into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly expand
>                     the attack surface to
>                     include the customer's networks too.
> 
>                     Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP
>                     leaks never occur, they have
>                     to then ensure that at no point can there be any
>                     filter lapses at any border
>                     node, and be able to guarantee the security of every
>                     device, server and machine
>                     within the domain in order for a secure posture to
>                     be maintained. Simply saying
>                     that precautions should be taken to make sure that
>                     route leak don't occur, when
>                     the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b:
>                     hard to recover from seems to
>                     not really cover it. In addition, it seems that the
>                     blast radius from a missing
>                     ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
> 
> 
>                     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>                     COMMENT:
>                     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>                     I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted to get
>                     an initial ballot in, so
>                     that we could start discussing it. Hopefully someone
>                     can help my understand how
>                     this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP leak.
> 
> 
>     -- 
> 
>     The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get confused by the
>     complexities of his own making.
>        -- E. W. Dijkstra
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> BESS@ietf.org
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I would have to dig for it, but there is general guidance that nodes 
should not decapsulate IP tunnels that they don't know about.  (There 
are exceptions, such as LISP.  But neither GRE nor MPLS in UDP have such 
exceptions.)  Conceptually, SRv6 introduces a generic exception for SRv6 
SIDs within the limited domain.  But still says to check that the packet 
you are receiving at least claims to be from within the limited domain.

This has nothing to do with sr-policy.

Yours,
Joel

On 2/17/2022 11:06 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> Joel,
> 
> But we are back to per src policy then right ?
> 
> Frankly I never saw such a policy on egress PEs and I did see L3VPNs or 
> L2VPNs running over IP. The protection is applied on ingress you your 
> domain.
> 
> Thx,
> R.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 5:03 PM Joel M. Halpern  > wrote:
> 
>     I would presume that the general policy (which does not apply to SRv6)
>     that nodes should not decapsulate  tunnel packets without configuration
>     or special exemption would mean that an arbitrary MPLS node will not
>     decapsualte a GRE packet and process its MPLS content.  Otherwise, all
>     tunnels become major security risks.
> 
>     Yours,
>     Joel
> 
>     On 2/17/2022 10:41 AM, Zhuangshunwan wrote:
>      > Hi all,
>      >
>      > +1 for Robert.
>      >
>      > Yes, especially when MPLS in GRE or MPLS in UDP is deployed, packets
>      > carrying MPLS labels can traverse all IP-reachable networks and
>     reach
>      > remote PEs.
>      >
>      > BR,
>      >
>      > Shunwan
>      >
>      > *From:*Robert Raszuk [mailto:robert@raszuk.net
>     ]
>      > *Sent:* Thursday, February 17, 2022 11:28 PM
>      > *To:* Warren Kumari >
>      > *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar      >; Andrew - IETF
>      > ; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)
>      > >;
>     draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org
>     ;
>      > bess-chairs@ietf.org ; The IESG
>     >; BESS      >
>      > *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>      > draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>      >
>      > Hi Warren,
>      >
>      > I am very sorry but I see folks are completely mixing transport
>     layer
>      > and service layer.
>      >
>      > In RFC4364 you can use MPLS label for service demux and IP
>     transport to
>      > get to remote egress PE via any IP network including Internet.
>      >
>      > There is nothing in L3VPNs like enabling MPLS on interface as
>     mandatory
>      > prerequisite. Yes many folks are confused about this and I see
>     the same
>      > confusion here. The service plane is completely separate from
>     transport
>      > layer from day one.
>      >
>      > Kind regards,
>      >
>      > Robert
>      >
>      > On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 4:14 PM Warren Kumari      
>      > >> wrote:
>      >
>      >     On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 11:54 PM Ketan Talaulikar
>      >     
>     >> wrote:
>      >
>      >         Hi Warren/All,
>      >
>      >         This draft specifies broadly two types of BGP Services
>     over SRv6:
>      >
>      >         A) VPN Services (L3VPN & EVPN) - Sec 5.1, 5.2 & 6
>      >
>      >         B) Global Internet Services - Sec 5.3, 5.4
>      >
>      >         As explained by my co-author Robert, the operations and
>      >         mechanisms for VPN services are similar to what we've had
>     with
>      >         MPLS. I believe we are all on the same page on this one
>     based on
>      >         the discussions between Andrew and Robert and that there
>     is no
>      >         new concern as far as (A).
>      >
>      >     Actually, no, I don't think that we are -- if I, as an attacker,
>      >     somehow know that VPN x uses MPLS labels Y, that's
>     interesting, but
>      >     not particularly valuable -- because of the "fail closed"
>     nature of
>      >     MPLS (it's a different protocol, and needs explicit and
>     intentional
>      >     action to enable on an interface)  it's really hard for me to
>      >     "inject" an MPLS packet and route it into your network. With
>     SRv6,
>      >     if the SIDs leak, I can construct a normal v6 packet and route it
>      >     towards you. Yes, handwave handwave the RFCs say that you MUST
>      >     filter at your edges and that the filtering MUST always be
>     perfect
>      >     handwave limited domain handwave -- but it's putting a large
>     amount
>      >     of faith in operator perfection.
>      >
>      >     Also, if I, as an attacker get access to a "server" in the
>     provider
>      >     network (noc workstation, billing machine, random admin PC, etc),
>      >     with MPLS it's very unlikely to be part of the MPLS domain,
>     but  an
>      >     SRv6 domain is much more likely to be "squishy" and more
>     likely to
>      >     encompass parts of the "enterprise" type systems.
>      >
>      >     W
>      >
>      >         Now (B) does bring in filtering aspects (as mentioned in the
>      >         security considerations) to ensure that the SRv6 block
>     that is
>      >         meant for use internal to the operator's network (i.e. SR
>      >         domain) does not get leaked/advertised out from the default
>      >         table on the Internet Border Router (IBR) over to an eBGP
>     peer.
>      >         This is similar to the precautions that operators take
>     today to
>      >         prevent their infrastructure addresses from being leaked
>     to the
>      >         Internet. The filters in BGP are also accompanied by ACLs
>     at the
>      >         IBRs to prevent traffic destined for those infrastructure IPs
>      >         from entering into the operator network. This is the same
>     in the
>      >         case of SRv6 as well.
>      >
>      >         I hope that clarifies and we can update the text to
>     convey these
>      >         aspects better.
>      >
>      >         Thanks,
>      >
>      >         Ketan
>      >
>      >         On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 12:21 AM Andrew - IETF
>      >              >> wrote:
>      >
>      >             Hi Robert,
>      >
>      >             5.3 Also opens the door to SAFI 1 – since you can v6
>     over v4
>      >             using AFI  1  / SAFI 1 using what is defined in
>     RFC8950, in
>      >             fact, it is explicit.
>      >
>      >             Section 5.3 is titled Global IPv4 over SRv6 core – this
>      >             correlates with the example in section 6.1 of RFC8950 –
>      >             which states:
>      >
>      >                 The extensions defined in this document may be
>     used as
>      >             discussed in
>      >
>      >                 [RFC5565
>      >                  >] for the
>      >             interconnection of IPv4 islands over an IPv6
>      >
>      >                 backbone.  In this application, Address Family Border
>      >             Routers (AFBRs;
>      >
>      >                 as defined in [RFC4925
>      >                  >]) advertise
>      >             IPv4 NLRI in the MP_REACH_NLRI
>      >
>      >                 along with an IPv6 next hop.
>      >
>      >                 The MP_REACH_NLRI is encoded with:
>      >
>      >                 *  AFI = 1
>      >
>      >                 *  SAFI = 1
>      >
>      >                 *  Length of Next Hop Address field = 16 (or 32)
>      >
>      >                 *  Next Hop Address = IPv6 address of the next hop
>      >
>      >                 *  NLRI = IPv4 routes
>      >
>      >                 During BGP Capability Advertisement, the PE routers
>      >             would include the
>      >
>      >                 following fields in the Capabilities Optional
>     Parameter:
>      >
>      >                 *  Capability Code set to "Extended Next Hop
>     Encoding"
>      >
>      >                 *  Capability Value containing      SAFI=1,
>      >             Nexthop
>      >
>      >                    AFI=2>
>      >
>      >             As I say, if you were to remove the references to
>     global and
>      >             5.3/5.4 which explicitly reference it and bring SAFI
>     1 into
>      >             play – there would be far less concern from my side,
>     I can’t
>      >             speak for anyone else, but that would be my feeling
>      >
>      >             Thanks
>      >
>      >             Andrew
>      >
>      >             *From:*Robert Raszuk      
>      >             >>
>      >             *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 9:37 PM
>      >             *To:* Andrew - IETF       >                  >>
>      >             *Cc:* Warren Kumari      
>      >                  >>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)
>      >                        >>;
>      > draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org
>     
>      >                  >;
>      > bess-chairs@ietf.org 
>     >; The IESG
>      >             
>     >>; BESS      
>      >             >>
>      >             *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>      >             draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and
>     COMMENT)
>      >
>      >             Hi Andrew,
>      >
>      >             When I read Warren's note Iooked at this text
>     from section 2
>      >             which says:
>      >
>      >             - - -
>      >
>      >                 The SRv6 Service TLVs are defined as two new TLVs
>     of the
>      >             BGP Prefix-
>      >                 SID Attribute to achieve signaling of SRv6 SIDs
>     for L3
>      >             and L2
>      >                 services.
>      >
>      >                 o  SRv6 L3 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID
>      >             information for
>      >                    SRv6 based L3 services.  It corresponds to the
>     equivalent
>      >                    functionality provided by an MPLS Label when
>     received
>      >             with a Layer
>      >                    3 service route as defined in [RFC4364] [RFC4659]
>      >             [RFC8950]
>      >                    [RFC9136].  Some SRv6 Endpoint behaviors which
>     MAY be
>      >             encoded, but
>      >                    not limited to, are End.DX4, End.DT4, End.DX6,
>      >             End.DT6, etc.
>      >
>      >                 o  SRv6 L2 Service TLV: This TLV encodes Service SID
>      >             information for
>      >                    SRv6 based L2 services.  It corresponds to the
>     equivalent
>      >                    functionality provided by an MPLS Label1 for
>     Ethernet
>      >             VPN (EVPN)
>      >                    Route-Types as defined in [RFC7432].  Some SRv6
>      >             Endpoint behaviors
>      >                    which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are
>      >             End.DX2, End.DX2V,
>      >                    End.DT2U, End.DT2M etc.
>      >
>      >                 When an egress PE is enabled for BGP Services
>     over SRv6
>      >             data-plane,
>      >                 it signals one or more SRv6 Service SIDs enclosed in
>      >             SRv6 Service
>      >                 TLV(s) within the BGP Prefix-SID Attribute
>     attached to
>      >             MP-BGP NLRIs
>      >                 defined in [RFC4760] [RFC4659] [RFC8950]
>     [RFC7432] [RFC4364]
>      >                 [RFC9136] where applicable as described in
>     Section 5 and
>      >             Section 6.
>      >
>      >                 The support for BGP Multicast VPN (MVPN) Services
>      >             [RFC6513] with SRv6
>      >                 is outside the scope of this document.
>      >
>      >             - - -
>      >
>      >             This limits the overlay signalling to non global SAFIs
>      >             mainly SAFI 128 and SAFI 70.
>      >
>      >             To your note SAFI 4 is private and never exchanged in the
>      >             wild. Also SAFI 2 is multicast which is out of scope
>     of this
>      >             draft.
>      >
>      >             The only thing which we need to sync on is indeed section
>      >             5.4 and use of global IPv6 AFI 2 & SAFI 1
>      >
>      >             Many thx,
>      >
>      >             R.
>      >
>      >             On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 7:11 PM Andrew - IETF
>      >                  >>
>      >             wrote:
>      >
>      >                 Robert,
>      >
>      >                 I have to say that I have very similar readings
>     on parts
>      >                 of the draft.
>      >
>      >                 Let’s look at it –
>      >
>      >                 5.1 uses the IPv4-VPN NLRI – That would seem to
>     indicate
>      >                 AFI 1 / SAFI 4
>      >
>      >                 5.2 – Uses AFI 2 / SAFI 4 from my reading
>      >
>      >                 5.3 – According to RFC8950 – allows advertisement
>     over
>      >                 SAFI 1, 2 or 4
>      >
>      >                 5.4 – To my reading – very much refers to AFI 2 /
>     SAFI 1.
>      >
>      >                 I would agree if this document limited itself to
>     5.1 and
>      >                 5.2 – it doesn’t – and therefore I have to agree with
>      >                 the thoughts expressed in Warrens Discuss.  If I am
>      >                 wrong about 5.3 and 5.4, let’s chat and help me
>      >                 understand this better, and then lets potentially
>     see if
>      >                 we can work up some wording that would clarify
>     this if
>      >                 that is what is required.
>      >
>      >                 Thanks
>      >
>      >                 Andrew
>      >
>      >                 *From:*iesg      
>      >                      >> *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>      >                 *Sent:* Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:26 PM
>      >                 *To:* Warren Kumari      
>      >                      >>
>      >                 *Cc:* Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)
>      >                      
>      >                      >>;
>      > draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org
>     
>      >                      >;
>      > bess-chairs@ietf.org 
>     >; The
>      >                 IESG 
>     >>; BESS
>      >                 
>     >>
>      >                 *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
>      >                 draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS
>     and COMMENT)
>      >
>      >                 Hi Warren,
>      >
>      >                 Thank you for your Discuss. But before we start
>      >                 discussing it perhaps it would be good to align
>     on what
>      >                 this document really defines as I am sensing from
>     your
>      >                 description there can be some disconnect (modulo some
>      >                 text may be indeed misleading in the draft).
>      >
>      >                 You said:
>      >
>      >                 > However, we all know that BGP leaks happen --
>     and when they do, the SID’s
>      >                 > contained in the leak will be logged by various
>     systems and hence available to
>      >                 > the public into perpetuity.
>      >
>      >                 I think the term BGP is used here a bit too broadly.
>      >
>      >                 Leaks do happen but only within global AFI/SAFIs.
>     This
>      >                 draft defines extensions for L3VPN and L2VPNs SAFIs
>      >                 which are not used to peer outside of a domain,
>      >                 collection of domains under same administration +
>      >                 of course inter-as also could happen.
>      >
>      >                 With that being said I do not see risk that due to
>      >                 leaking there could be a situation where customer
>      >                 networks are exposed in any way externally - leaving
>      >                 alone that to even get at the transport level to the
>      >                 customer facing PE is also filtered and never allowed
>      >                 from outside. But this is out of scope of this
>     document
>      >                 as here the focus is not on underlay but overlay.
>      >
>      >                 Now when I re-read this I see why there is a little
>      >                 piece perhaps misleading. The draft makes a claim
>     that
>      >                 it is applicable to RFC8950 which defines use of NHv6
>      >                 with both unicast and VPN AFs. That needs to be made
>      >                 clear that it is applicable to the latter only.
>     If other
>      >                 co-authors believe this is applicable to the
>     former your
>      >                 DISCUSS section would indeed be valid.
>      >
>      >                 Many thx,
>      >
>      >                 R.
>      >
>      >                 On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 12:05 AM Warren Kumari via
>      >                 Datatracker            >>
>      >                 wrote:
>      >
>      >                     Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot
>      >                     position for
>      >                     draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: Discuss
>      >
>      >                     When responding, please keep the subject line
>     intact
>      >                     and reply to all
>      >                     email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
>      >                     (Feel free to cut this
>      >                     introductory paragraph, however.)
>      >
>      >
>      >                     Please refer to
>      > https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/
>     
>      >                   
>            >
>      >                     for more information about how to handle
>     DISCUSS and
>      >                     COMMENT positions.
>      >
>      >
>      >                     The document, along with other ballot
>     positions, can
>      >                     be found here:
>      > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services/
>     
>      >                   
>            >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >                   
>       ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>      >                     DISCUSS:
>      >                   
>       ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>      >
>      >                     The Security Considerations section says: "The
>      >                     service flows between PE routers
>      >                     using SRv6 SIDs advertised via BGP are
>     expected to
>      >                     be limited within the
>      >                     trusted SR domain (e.g., within a single AS or
>      >                     between multiple ASes within a
>      >                     single provider network).  Precaution should be
>      >                     taken to ensure that the BGP
>      >                     service information (including associated
>     SRv6 SID)
>      >                     advertised via BGP sessions
>      >                     are limited to peers within this trusted SR
>     domain."
>      >                     This is related to (from
>      >                     RFC8402): "Therefore, by default, the explicit
>      >                     routing information MUST NOT be
>      >                     leaked through the boundaries of the administered
>      >                     domain."
>      >
>      >                     However, we all know that BGP leaks happen -- and
>      >                     when they do, the SID’s
>      >                     contained in the leak will be logged by various
>      >                     systems and hence available to
>      >                     the public into perpetuity.
>      >
>      >                     While the document states that border filtering
>      >                     should protect against traffic
>      >                     injection, this does not cover the case of
>     internal
>      >                     compromise. Sure, there is
>      >                     the argument that once there is an internally
>      >                     compromised system, all bets are
>      >                     off -- but with this, an attacker that knows the
>      >                     SIDs in e.g inject traffic
>      >                     into a VPN. This seems to me to significantly
>     expand
>      >                     the attack surface to
>      >                     include the customer's networks too.
>      >
>      >                     Not only does an operator have to ensure that BGP
>      >                     leaks never occur, they have
>      >                     to then ensure that at no point can there be any
>      >                     filter lapses at any border
>      >                     node, and be able to guarantee the security
>     of every
>      >                     device, server and machine
>      >                     within the domain in order for a secure
>     posture to
>      >                     be maintained. Simply saying
>      >                     that precautions should be taken to make sure
>     that
>      >                     route leak don't occur, when
>      >                     the consequences of doing so are a: severe and b:
>      >                     hard to recover from seems to
>      >                     not really cover it. In addition, it seems
>     that the
>      >                     blast radius from a missing
>      >                     ACL seems much larger if it allows injections.
>      >
>      >
>      >                   
>       ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>      >                     COMMENT:
>      >                   
>       ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>      >
>      >                     I'm still reviewing the document, but wanted
>     to get
>      >                     an initial ballot in, so
>      >                     that we could start discussing it. Hopefully
>     someone
>      >                     can help my understand how
>      >                     this doesn't expand the consequences of a BGP
>     leak.
>      >
>      >
>      >     --
>      >
>      >     The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get
>     confused by the
>      >     complexities of his own making.
>      >        -- E. W. Dijkstra
>      >
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > BESS mailing list
>      > BESS@ietf.org 
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>     
> 


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Robert Raszuk 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 17:18:13 +0100
Message-ID: 
To: "Joel M. Halpern" 
Cc: Zhuangshunwan ,  "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , BESS 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008eaab105d8391da0"
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Joel,

There was a lot of effort by various vendors put in place to help automate
protection of the domain from getting any external packet to the
infrastructure addresses.

Typically I have seen two models in SPs:

* automatic ACL protection at the data plane for all infra targets
(sometimes with exceptions of ICMP)

* putting Internet into a VPN itself hence limiting to what comes from
Internet stays in the special VPN dedicated for it.

I have not seen much individual protection done at the L2 or L3 VPNs PEs to
selectively decapsulate. But it could be done too.

However all of this is about transport layer, while this draft is mainly
about service layer so to me this is out of topic if you see the layer
decoupling.

BESS :),
Robert.


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 5:11 PM Joel M. Halpern  wrote:

> I would have to dig for it, but there is general guidance that nodes
> should not decapsulate IP tunnels that they don't know about.  (There
> are exceptions, such as LISP.  But neither GRE nor MPLS in UDP have such
> exceptions.)  Conceptually, SRv6 introduces a generic exception for SRv6
> SIDs within the limited domain.  But still says to check that the packet
> you are receiving at least claims to be from within the limited domain.
>
> This has nothing to do with sr-policy.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 2/17/2022 11:06 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> > Joel,
> >
> > But we are back to per src policy then right ?
> >
> > Frankly I never saw such a policy on egress PEs and I did see L3VPNs or
> > L2VPNs running over IP. The protection is applied on ingress you your
> > domain.
> >
> > Thx,
> > R.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 5:03 PM Joel M. Halpern  > > wrote:
> >
> >     I would presume that the general policy (which does not apply to
> SRv6)
> >     that nodes should not decapsulate  tunnel packets without
> configuration
> >     or special exemption would mean that an arbitrary MPLS node will not
> >     decapsualte a GRE packet and process its MPLS content.  Otherwise,
> all
> >     tunnels become major security risks.
> >
> >     Yours,
> >     Joel
> >
> >     On 2/17/2022 10:41 AM, Zhuangshunwan wrote:
> >      > Hi all,
> >      >
> >      > +1 for Robert.
> >      >
> >      > Yes, especially when MPLS in GRE or MPLS in UDP is deployed,
> packets
> >      > carrying MPLS labels can traverse all IP-reachable networks and
> >     reach
> >      > remote PEs.
> >      >
> >      > BR,
> >      >
> >      > Shunwan
>
>      >
> >      > *From:*Robert Raszuk [mailto:robert@raszuk.net
> >     ]
> >      > *Sent:* Thursday, February 17, 2022 11:28 PM
> >      > *To:* Warren Kumari  >>
> >      > *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar  >     >; Andrew - IETF
> >      > ; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)
> >      > >;
> >     draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org
> >     ;
> >      > bess-chairs@ietf.org ; The IESG
> >     >; BESS  >     >
> >      > *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on
> >      > draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> >      >
> >      > Hi Warren,
> >      >
> >      > I am very sorry but I see folks are completely mixing transport
> >     layer
> >      > and service layer.
> >      >
> >      > In RFC4364 you can use MPLS label for service demux and IP
> >     transport to
> >      > get to remote egress PE via any IP network including Internet.
> >      >
> >      > There is nothing in L3VPNs like enabling MPLS on interface as
> >     mandatory
> >      > prerequisite. Yes many folks are confused about this and I see
> >     the same
> >      > confusion here. The service plane is completely separate from
> >     transport
> >      > layer from day one.
> >      >
> >      > Kind regards,
> >      >
> >      > Robert
> >      >
>
>

--0000000000008eaab105d8391da0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Joel,

There was a lot =
of effort by various vendors put in place to help automate protection of th=
e domain from getting any external packet to the infrastructure addresses.=
=C2=A0

Typically I have seen two models in SPs:=C2=
=A0

* automatic ACL protection at the data plane f=
or all infra targets (sometimes with exceptions of ICMP)

* putting Internet into a VPN itself hence limiting to what comes fr=
om Internet stays in the special VPN dedicated for it.=C2=A0

=

I have not seen much individual protection done at the L2 or L3 =
VPNs PEs to selectively decapsulate. But it could be done too.=C2=A0
<=
div>
However all of this is about transport layer, while this=
 draft is mainly about service layer so to me this is out of topic if you s=
ee the layer decoupling.=C2=A0

BESS :),
=
Robert.


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 5:11 PM Joel M. Halpe=
rn <jmh@joelhalpern.com> w=
rote:
I would ha=
ve to dig for it, but there is general guidance that nodes 

should not decapsulate IP tunnels that they don't know about.=C2=A0 (Th=
ere 

are exceptions, such as LISP.=C2=A0 But neither GRE nor MPLS in UDP have su=
ch 

exceptions.)=C2=A0 Conceptually, SRv6 introduces a generic exception for SR=
v6 

SIDs within the limited domain.=C2=A0 But still says to check that the pack=
et 

you are receiving at least claims to be from within the limited domain.



This has nothing to do with sr-policy.



Yours,

Joel



On 2/17/2022 11:06 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote:

> Joel,

> 

> But we are back to per src policy then right ?

> 

> Frankly I never saw such a policy=C2=A0on egress PEs and I did see L3V=
PNs or 

> L2VPNs running over IP. The protection is applied on ingress you your =


> domain.

> 

> Thx,

> R.

> 

> 

> On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 5:03 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com 

> <mailto:jm=
h@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would presume that the general policy (which does=
 not apply to SRv6)

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that nodes should not decapsulate=C2=A0 tunnel pack=
ets without configuration

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or special exemption would mean that an arbitrary M=
PLS node will not

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decapsualte a GRE packet and process its MPLS conte=
nt.=C2=A0 Otherwise, all

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tunnels become major security risks.

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel

> 

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 2/17/2022 10:41 AM, Zhuangshunwan wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi all,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > +1 for Robert.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Yes, especially when MPLS in GRE or MPLS in U=
DP is deployed, packets

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > carrying MPLS labels can traverse all IP-reac=
hable networks and

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reach

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > remote PEs.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > BR,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Shunwan
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *From:*Robert Raszuk [mailto:robert@raszuk.net

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>]

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *Sent:* Thursday, February 17, 2022 11:28 PM<=
br>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *To:* Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net <mailto:warren@kumari.net>&g=
t;

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *Cc:* Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.com

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:ketant.ietf@gmail.com>>; Andrew - IETF

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech>; Bocci, Matth=
ew (Nokia - GB)

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <matthew.bocci@nokia.com <mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>=
;>;

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org<=
/a>>;

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > bess-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>; The IESG

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<iesg@ietf.org <mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>; BESS <bess@ietf.org

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *Subject:* Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on=


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCU=
SS and COMMENT)

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Warren,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I am very sorry but I see folks are completel=
y mixing transport

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0layer

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > and service=C2=A0layer.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > In RFC4364 you can use MPLS label for service=
 demux and IP

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transport to

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > get to remote egress PE via any IP network in=
cluding Internet.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > There is nothing in L3VPNs like enabling MPLS=
 on interface as

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mandatory

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > prerequisite. Yes many folks are confused abo=
ut this and I see

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the same

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > confusion here. The service plane is complete=
ly separate from

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transport

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > layer from day one.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Kind regards,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Robert

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >





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In-Reply-To: 
From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 22:17:27 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Tony Przygienda 
Cc: Erik Kline ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" , draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  bess-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , BESS 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Erik Kline's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi Tony,

Indeed, perhaps you might have lost the thread here ;-)

Things are pretty simple (unless one wants to over-complicate) and covered
in the base SRv6 standards-track RFC8754. Let me put it down here:

   1.  Any packet entering the SR domain and destined to a SID within
       the SR domain is dropped.  This may be realized with the
       following logic.  Other methods with equivalent outcome are
       considered compliant:

       *  Allocate all the SIDs from a block S/s

       *  Configure each external interface of each edge node of the
          domain with an inbound infrastructure access list (IACL) that
          drops any incoming packet with a destination address in S/s

       *  Failure to implement this method of ingress filtering exposes
          the SR domain to source-routing attacks, as described and
          referenced in [RFC5095
]


I can understand the argument that someone that is doing this manually on
router CLIs today could miss this on some interface. But with the
templates, automation, and other tools available today, I find it hard to
agree when this filtering is called "complex", "not possible" and
"handwaving". Especially, when operators have already done this in their
deployments.

@Erik Kline 
In any case, none of this is being newly introduced in the document under
discussion nor changed by it.

Thanks,
Ketan


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 4:19 PM Tony Przygienda  wrote:

> Ketan, yepp, 5.1.2 is roughly the CUG via ACL, add to it per service
> protection (as in some external A can talk to service X but external B
> cannot which now starts to push you into fragment the SRv6 "prefix" into
> "per service space" if you want to aggregate), multiply that by the
> downstream-upstream if you want to cross providers AFAIS (as in BGP
> flowspec up/down shorewalling) and you have a pretty nice combinatorial
> space. And BTW, source address is easily spoofed given the lack of BCP
> implementations in the real world and with source routing technology one
> can land those packets in unexpected places via unexpected routes. All that
> looks to me like nothing comparable to a leaked internal loopback today
> which was my whole point as in fallacy by  faulty analogy.
>
> Unless I lost the thread completely which, given the amount of machinery
> fielded by now ;-) could be excusable ...
>
> -- tony
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 11:37 AM Ketan Talaulikar 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> My apologies, but I am not able to understand your emails entirely. I
>> wonder if this text below helps explain:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8754#section-5.1
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ketan
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 3:40 PM Tony Przygienda 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be somehow
>>>>> worse.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> KT> It isn't necessary nor required because SRv6 locators are just IPv6
>>>> prefixes that are already covered by IGP/BGP extensions for IPv6 routing. A
>>>> provider that uses global IPv6 addresses in their infrastructure (e.g. for
>>>> their BGP and other routing sessions, on their router links and loopback,
>>>> for DHCP, AAA, etc.) already do routing for those prefixes via IGP/BGP.
>>>> These are not advertised (nor leaked) out into the Internet since doing so
>>>> can result in attacks on their internal network and infrastructure. They
>>>> are protected via BGP configuration to stop leaks and then again by ACLs at
>>>> Internet Border Routers to prevent attacks via the data path. This still
>>>> remains the case to be done for SRv6 locators - they are similarly the
>>>> service provider's "internal" infrastructure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm confounded by the recent line of reasoning  of SRv6 proponents.  An
>>> IPv6 address is NOT a service access point, it's a routable address,
>>> history shows us that we can protect against services on the device being
>>> attacked through that (though it took some work like proper ICMP handling).
>>> SRv6 endpoints here are really service endpoints, unless we have a CUG
>>> security architecture in place, how do we protect services here without
>>> having CUG style filters on the whole edge?  with SRv6 services giving
>>> people a service access point and a tunneling technology where someone via
>>> v6 routing can built a tunnel to hit the service is a different beast
>>> altogether than protecting reachability (routable addresses) and I fear
>>> pretty soon we're looking @ routers going very, very deep into the "IPv6"
>>> packet to make sure there aren't some magic options on the packet
>>> source-routing it in funky ways towards service endpoints that will accept
>>> the packet.
>>>
>>> --- tony
>>>
>>

--00000000000034646805d8398667
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Tony,

Indeed, perhaps you might have=
 lost the thread here ;-)

Things are pretty simple=
 (unless one wants to over-complicate) and covered in the base SRv6 standar=
ds-track RFC8754. Let me put it down here:

   1.  Any packet entering the SR domain and destined to a SID within
       the SR domain is dropped.  This may be realized with the
       following logic.  Other methods with equivalent outcome are
       considered compliant:

       *  Allocate all the SIDs from a block S/s

       *  Configure each external interface of each edge node of the
          domain with an inbound infrastructure access list (IACL) that
          drops any incoming packet with a destination address in S/s

       *  Failure to implement this method of ingress filtering exposes
          the SR domain to source-routing attacks, as described and
          referenced in [RFC5095]

I can unders=
tand the argument that someone that is doing this manually on router CLIs t=
oday could miss this on some interface. But with the templates, automation,=
 and other tools available today, I find it hard to agree when this filteri=
ng is called "complex", "not possible" and "handwa=
ving". Especially, when operators have already done this in their depl=
oyments.

In any case, none of this is being newly=
 introduced in the document under discussion nor changed by it.=C2=A0
=


Thanks,
Ketan


<=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Thu, Feb=
 17, 2022 at 4:19 PM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Ketan, yepp=
, 5.1.2 is roughly the CUG via ACL, add to it per service protection (as in=
 some external A can talk to service X but external B cannot which now star=
ts to push you into fragment the SRv6 "prefix" into "per ser=
vice space" if you want to aggregate), multiply that by the downstream=
-upstream if you want to cross providers AFAIS (as in BGP flowspec up/down =
shorewalling) and you have a pretty nice combinatorial space. And BTW, sour=
ce address is easily spoofed given the lack of BCP implementations in the r=
eal world and with source routing technology one can land those packets in =
unexpected places via unexpected routes. All that looks to me like nothing =
comparable to a leaked internal loopback today which was my whole point as =
in fallacy by=C2=A0 faulty analogy. 

Unless I =
lost the thread completely which, given the amount of machinery fielded by =
now ;-) could be excusable ... 

-- tony 
=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 11:37 AM Ketan Talaulikar =
<ketant.ietf@=
gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tony,

My apologies, but I=
 am not able to understand your emails entirely. I wonder if this text belo=
w helps explain:=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rf=
c8754#section-5.1

Thanks,
Ketan


On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 3:40 PM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com&g=
t; wrote:





But I'm prepared to learn why this wouldn't work or would be someho=
w worse.

KT> It isn't necessary =
nor required because SRv6 locators are just IPv6 prefixes that are already =
covered by IGP/BGP extensions for IPv6 routing. A provider that uses global=
 IPv6 addresses in their infrastructure (e.g. for their BGP and other routi=
ng sessions, on their router links and loopback, for DHCP, AAA, etc.) alrea=
dy do routing for those prefixes via IGP/BGP. These are not advertised (nor=
 leaked) out into the Internet since doing so can result in attacks on thei=
r internal network and infrastructure. They are protected via BGP configura=
tion to stop leaks and then again by ACLs at Internet Border Routers to pre=
vent attacks via the data path. This still remains the case to be done for =
SRv6 locators - they are similarly the service provider's "interna=
l" infrastructure.


I'm confounded by the recent line of reasoning=C2=A0 of SRv6 propone=
nts.=C2=A0 An IPv6 address is NOT a service access point, it's a routab=
le address, history shows us that we can protect against services on the de=
vice being attacked through that (though it took some work like proper ICMP=
 handling). SRv6 endpoints here are really service endpoints, unless we hav=
e a CUG security architecture in place, how do we protect services here wit=
hout having CUG style filters on the whole edge?=C2=A0 with SRv6 services g=
iving people a service access point and a tunneling technology where someon=
e via v6 routing can built a tunnel to hit the service is a different beast=
 altogether than protecting reachability (routable addresses) and I fear pr=
etty soon we're looking @ routers going very, very deep into the "=
IPv6" packet to make sure there aren't some magic options on the p=
acket source-routing it in funky ways towards service endpoints that will a=
ccept the packet. 

--- tony 








--00000000000034646805d8398667--


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From: Alvaro Retana 
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 11:00:48 -0800
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Subject: Re: [bess] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On February 16, 2022 at 1:28:43 PM, Ketan Talaulikar wrote:


Ketan:

Hi!


> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > DISCUSS:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I am balloting DISCUSS because the document underspecifies the use of
> > Endpoint Behaviors. As a result, it is unclear when they should be chec=
ked,
> > enforced, or needed. Details follow.
> >
> >
> > The descriptions of the TLVs in =C2=A72 say (twice) that the "SRv6 Endp=
oint
> > behaviors which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are...etc."
> >
> > The text above ends with "etc." which means there are other possible
> > behaviors. That's not a great use of normative language, even if option=
al.
>
> KT> Agree. We have removed the "etc".

Ok. =C2=A0Given the rest of the text, I think that "MAY" is just expressing
a fact, not a normative action: s/MAY/may


> > My initial instinct was to ask you to be specific, BUT...
> >
> > The description of the SRv6 SID Information Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.1) says th=
at "an
> > unrecognized endpoint behavior MUST NOT be considered invalid", which s=
eems
> > to mean that any behavior is ok, AND...
> >
> > There's no validation specified, except for the description of the SRv6=
 SID
> > Structure Sub-Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.2.1), where it says that the "Argument l=
ength
> > MUST be set to 0 for SIDs where the Argument is not applicable". AND...
> >
> > Several of the service descriptions in =C2=A75/=C2=A76 say that "The SR=
v6 Endpoint
> > behavior of the SRv6 SID is entirely up to the originator of the
> > advertisement. In practice, the SRv6 Endpoint behavior is..."
> >
> >
> > The result is that any endpoint behavior (even unrecognized) can be use=
d,
> > while also requiring a specific setting for the argument length in some
> > cases.
> >
> > How can the argument length be validated if the endpoint behavior is
> > unknown?
>
> KT> The argument length cannot be validated unless the endpoint behavior =
is
> known. The ingress PE needs to actually write the ARG part of the SID int=
o
> the SRv6 SID advertised by the egress PE when sending packets for that
> service to the egress PE. Therefore, knowing that the behavior involves
> argument and validating the argument length is important. We have clarifi=
ed
> this in the text.

I see that the text in -11 now says this:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Arguments may be generally applicable for SIDs of only specifi=
c SRv6
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Endpoint behaviors (e.g., End.DT2M) and therefore the Argument=
 length
=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be set to 0 for SIDs where the Argument is not applicable=
. =C2=A0A
=C2=A0 =C2=A0receiver is unable to validate the applicability of arguments =
for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SRv6 Endpoint behaviors that are unknown to it and hence MUST =
ignore
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SRv6 SIDs with arguments (indicated by non-zero argument lengt=
h) with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0unknown endpoint behaviors.

That works for me. =C2=A0It addresses the cases when the Behavior is
unknown -- the questions below are about known and expected Behaviors.



> > Clearly (from looking at rfc8986), not all endpoint behaviors apply to =
the
> > services defined in this document. Should a receiver accept any endpoin=
t
> > behavior? What should a receiver do if a known but unrelated behavior (=
End,
> > for example) is received?
> >
> > What should the receiver do if the endpoint behavior is known and
> > applicable, but the attribute length is not set correctly?
>
> KT> Could you clarify which attribute length you are referring to?

Sorry, I meant the argument... :-(


> > For any specific service (IPv4 VPN Over SRv6 Core, for example, to pick
> > one), should the behaviors used "in practice" be enforced? What if
> > different behavior is advertised? Can it safely be ignored?



...
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
...

Just one comment:


...
> > (8) =C2=A75:
> >
> > The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS of the egress
> > PE and serves the dual purpose of providing reachability between
> > ingress PE and egress PE while also encoding the SRv6 Endpoint
> > behavior.
> >
> > Is it ever ok for the SID to not be routable? If so, when? The "purpose=
 of
> > providing reachability" requires the SID to be routable. IOW, why is th=
is
> > behavior recommended and not required?
>
> KT> An SRv6 SID may not be routable across multiple IGP domains within a
> provider network when routes are not leaked. There can be other mechanism=
s
> like SR Policies (or other forms of tunneling) that provide reachability.=
 In
> other scenarios, due to local policy, the resolution may be desired over =
an
> SR Policy instead of the best-effort reachability provided by IGPs.

If there's a route over a tunnel/SR Policy/whatever, I consider that
routable. I am not just thinking about IGP-learned routes. =C2=A0The case
that concerns me is when the ingress PE doesn't have a route at all
(which is possible with the SHOULD). =C2=A0If a route should always exist
(from any source) then it looks like the text should indicate a
requirement and not a recommendation.


Thanks for addressing my other comments.

Alvaro.


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From: John Scudder 
To: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org" , "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "bess@ietf.org" , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2022 19:15:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bess] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-11: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 10:52:50 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Alvaro Retana 
Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  The IESG , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Alvaro,

Thanks for your quick response and please see further inline below.

We will include these changes in the next update of the draft.


On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 12:30 AM Alvaro Retana 
wrote:

> On February 16, 2022 at 1:28:43 PM, Ketan Talaulikar wrote:
>
>
> Ketan:
>
> Hi!
>
>
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> > > DISCUSS:
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> > >
> > > I am balloting DISCUSS because the document underspecifies the use of
> > > Endpoint Behaviors. As a result, it is unclear when they should be
> checked,
> > > enforced, or needed. Details follow.
> > >
> > >
> > > The descriptions of the TLVs in =C2=A72 say (twice) that the "SRv6 En=
dpoint
> > > behaviors which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are...etc."
> > >
> > > The text above ends with "etc." which means there are other possible
> > > behaviors. That's not a great use of normative language, even if
> optional.
> >
> > KT> Agree. We have removed the "etc".
>
> Ok.  Given the rest of the text, I think that "MAY" is just expressing
> a fact, not a normative action: s/MAY/may
>

KT> Ack


>
>
> > > My initial instinct was to ask you to be specific, BUT...
> > >
> > > The description of the SRv6 SID Information Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.1) says =
that
> "an
> > > unrecognized endpoint behavior MUST NOT be considered invalid", which
> seems
> > > to mean that any behavior is ok, AND...
> > >
> > > There's no validation specified, except for the description of the
> SRv6 SID
> > > Structure Sub-Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.2.1), where it says that the "Argument=
 length
> > > MUST be set to 0 for SIDs where the Argument is not applicable". AND.=
..
> > >
> > > Several of the service descriptions in =C2=A75/=C2=A76 say that "The =
SRv6
> Endpoint
> > > behavior of the SRv6 SID is entirely up to the originator of the
> > > advertisement. In practice, the SRv6 Endpoint behavior is..."
> > >
> > >
> > > The result is that any endpoint behavior (even unrecognized) can be
> used,
> > > while also requiring a specific setting for the argument length in so=
me
> > > cases.
> > >
> > > How can the argument length be validated if the endpoint behavior is
> > > unknown?
> >
> > KT> The argument length cannot be validated unless the endpoint behavio=
r
> is
> > known. The ingress PE needs to actually write the ARG part of the SID
> into
> > the SRv6 SID advertised by the egress PE when sending packets for that
> > service to the egress PE. Therefore, knowing that the behavior involves
> > argument and validating the argument length is important. We have
> clarified
> > this in the text.
>
> I see that the text in -11 now says this:
>
>    Arguments may be generally applicable for SIDs of only specific SRv6
>    Endpoint behaviors (e.g., End.DT2M) and therefore the Argument length
>    MUST be set to 0 for SIDs where the Argument is not applicable.  A
>    receiver is unable to validate the applicability of arguments for
>    SRv6 Endpoint behaviors that are unknown to it and hence MUST ignore
>    SRv6 SIDs with arguments (indicated by non-zero argument length) with
>    unknown endpoint behaviors.
>
> That works for me.  It addresses the cases when the Behavior is
> unknown -- the questions below are about known and expected Behaviors.
>

KT> Thanks


>
>
>
> > > Clearly (from looking at rfc8986), not all endpoint behaviors apply t=
o
> the
> > > services defined in this document. Should a receiver accept any
> endpoint
> > > behavior? What should a receiver do if a known but unrelated behavior
> (End,
> > > for example) is received?
> > >
> > > What should the receiver do if the endpoint behavior is known and
> > > applicable, but the attribute length is not set correctly?
> >
> > KT> Could you clarify which attribute length you are referring to?
>
> Sorry, I meant the argument... :-(
>

KT> The behavior definition may or may not specify requirements of argument
lengths - the currently defined ones do not pose any limitation and so the
draft talks about zero or non-zero. We can clarify by saying something on
the lines that for behaviors where arguments apply, the argument length's
consistency must be verified against the behavior definition. Would that
address your comment?


>
>
> > > For any specific service (IPv4 VPN Over SRv6 Core, for example, to pi=
ck
> > > one), should the behaviors used "in practice" be enforced? What if
> > > different behavior is advertised? Can it safely be ignored?
>
>
>
> ...
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> > > COMMENT:
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> ...
>
> Just one comment:
>
>
> ...
> > > (8) =C2=A75:
> > >
> > > The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS of the egress
> > > PE and serves the dual purpose of providing reachability between
> > > ingress PE and egress PE while also encoding the SRv6 Endpoint
> > > behavior.
> > >
> > > Is it ever ok for the SID to not be routable? If so, when? The
> "purpose of
> > > providing reachability" requires the SID to be routable. IOW, why is
> this
> > > behavior recommended and not required?
> >
> > KT> An SRv6 SID may not be routable across multiple IGP domains within =
a
> > provider network when routes are not leaked. There can be other
> mechanisms
> > like SR Policies (or other forms of tunneling) that provide
> reachability. In
> > other scenarios, due to local policy, the resolution may be desired ove=
r
> an
> > SR Policy instead of the best-effort reachability provided by IGPs.
>
> If there's a route over a tunnel/SR Policy/whatever, I consider that
> routable. I am not just thinking about IGP-learned routes.  The case
> that concerns me is when the ingress PE doesn't have a route at all
> (which is possible with the SHOULD).  If a route should always exist
> (from any source) then it looks like the text should indicate a
> requirement and not a recommendation.
>

KT> The should is to allow for use-cases such as the one specified in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-pol=
icy-18#section-8.5
- in this case, there may not be any reachability but the local policy
indicates triggering a request to a controller to compute SR Policy path to
the BGP NH on demand and then the resolution can happen once such an SR
Policy is successfully instantiated on the node.


>
>
> Thanks for addressing my other comments



>
> Alvaro.
>

Thanks,
Ketan

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Hi Alvaro,

Thanks for =
your quick response and please see further inline below.

We will include these changes in the next update of the draft.
=



On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 12:30 AM Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On February 16, 20=
22 at 1:28:43 PM, Ketan Talaulikar wrote:





Ketan:



Hi!





> > -----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

> > DISCUSS:

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

> >

> > I am balloting DISCUSS because the document underspecifies the us=
e of

> > Endpoint Behaviors. As a result, it is unclear when they should b=
e checked,

> > enforced, or needed. Details follow.

> >

> >

> > The descriptions of the TLVs in =C2=A72 say (twice) that the &quo=
t;SRv6 Endpoint

> > behaviors which MAY be encoded, but not limited to, are...etc.&qu=
ot;

> >

> > The text above ends with "etc." which means there are o=
ther possible

> > behaviors. That's not a great use of normative language, even=
 if optional.

>

> KT> Agree. We have removed the "etc".



Ok.=C2=A0 Given the rest of the text, I think that "MAY" is just =
expressing

a fact, not a normative action: s/MAY/may

KT> Ack
=C2=A0





> > My initial instinct was to ask you to be specific, BUT...

> >

> > The description of the SRv6 SID Information Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.1) s=
ays that "an

> > unrecognized endpoint behavior MUST NOT be considered invalid&quo=
t;, which seems

> > to mean that any behavior is ok, AND...

> >

> > There's no validation specified, except for the description o=
f the SRv6 SID

> > Structure Sub-Sub-TLV (=C2=A73.2.1), where it says that the "=
;Argument length

> > MUST be set to 0 for SIDs where the Argument is not applicable&qu=
ot;. AND...

> >

> > Several of the service descriptions in =C2=A75/=C2=A76 say that &=
quot;The SRv6 Endpoint

> > behavior of the SRv6 SID is entirely up to the originator of the<=
br>
> > advertisement. In practice, the SRv6 Endpoint behavior is..."=
;

> >

> >

> > The result is that any endpoint behavior (even unrecognized) can =
be used,

> > while also requiring a specific setting for the argument length i=
n some

> > cases.

> >

> > How can the argument length be validated if the endpoint behavior=
 is

> > unknown?

>

> KT> The argument length cannot be validated unless the endpoint beh=
avior is

> known. The ingress PE needs to actually write the ARG part of the SID =
into

> the SRv6 SID advertised by the egress PE when sending packets for that=


> service to the egress PE. Therefore, knowing that the behavior involve=
s

> argument and validating the argument length is important. We have clar=
ified

> this in the text.



I see that the text in -11 now says this:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0Arguments may be generally applicable for SIDs of only specifi=
c SRv6

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Endpoint behaviors (e.g., End.DT2M) and therefore the Argument=
 length

=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be set to 0 for SIDs where the Argument is not applicable=
. =C2=A0A

=C2=A0 =C2=A0receiver is unable to validate the applicability of arguments =
for

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SRv6 Endpoint behaviors that are unknown to it and hence MUST =
ignore

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SRv6 SIDs with arguments (indicated by non-zero argument lengt=
h) with

=C2=A0 =C2=A0unknown endpoint behaviors.



That works for me.=C2=A0 It addresses the cases when the Behavior is

unknown -- the questions below are about known and expected Behaviors.
<=
/blockquote>

KT> Thanks
=C2=A0







> > Clearly (from looking at rfc8986), not all endpoint behaviors app=
ly to the

> > services defined in this document. Should a receiver accept any e=
ndpoint

> > behavior? What should a receiver do if a known but unrelated beha=
vior (End,

> > for example) is received?

> >

> > What should the receiver do if the endpoint behavior is known and=


> > applicable, but the attribute length is not set correctly?

>

> KT> Could you clarify which attribute length you are referring to?<=
br>


Sorry, I meant the argument... :-(

KT&g=
t; The behavior definition may or may not specify requirements of argument =
lengths - the currently defined ones do not pose any limitation and so the =
draft talks about zero or non-zero. We can clarify by saying something on t=
he lines that for behaviors where arguments apply, the argument length'=
s consistency must be verified against the behavior definition. Would that =
address your comment?
=C2=A0





> > For any specific service (IPv4 VPN Over SRv6 Core, for example, t=
o pick

> > one), should the behaviors used "in practice" be enforc=
ed? What if

> > different behavior is advertised? Can it safely be ignored?







...

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

> > COMMENT:

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

...



Just one comment:





...

> > (8) =C2=A75:

> >

> > The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS of the egre=
ss

> > PE and serves the dual purpose of providing reachability between<=
br>
> > ingress PE and egress PE while also encoding the SRv6 Endpoint
> > behavior.

> >

> > Is it ever ok for the SID to not be routable? If so, when? The &q=
uot;purpose of

> > providing reachability" requires the SID to be routable. IOW=
, why is this

> > behavior recommended and not required?

>

> KT> An SRv6 SID may not be routable across multiple IGP domains wit=
hin a

> provider network when routes are not leaked. There can be other mechan=
isms

> like SR Policies (or other forms of tunneling) that provide reachabili=
ty. In

> other scenarios, due to local policy, the resolution may be desired ov=
er an

> SR Policy instead of the best-effort reachability provided by IGPs.


If there's a route over a tunnel/SR Policy/whatever, I consider that
routable. I am not just thinking about IGP-learned routes.=C2=A0 The case
that concerns me is when the ingress PE doesn't have a route at all

(which is possible with the SHOULD).=C2=A0 If a route should always exist
(from any source) then it looks like the text should indicate a

requirement and not a recommendation.

K=
T> The should is to allow for use-cases such as the one specified in=C2=
=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra=
ft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-18#section-8.5 - in this case, th=
ere may not be any reachability but the local policy indicates triggering a=
 request to a controller to compute SR Policy path to the BGP NH on demand =
and then the resolution can happen once such an SR Policy is successfully i=
nstantiated on the node.
=C2=A0





Thanks for addressing my other comments
=C2=A0



Alvaro.

Thanks,
Ketan
=C2=A0


--000000000000b27df305d84413b7--


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From: Alvaro Retana 
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 04:22:30 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  The IESG , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On February 18, 2022 at 12:23:03 AM, Ketan Talaulikar wrote:


Hi!


> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
> > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
...
> > > > Clearly (from looking at rfc8986), not all endpoint behaviors apply=
 to
> > > > the services defined in this document. Should a receiver accept any
> > > > endpoint behavior? What should a receiver do if a known but unrelat=
ed
> > > > behavior (End, for example) is received?
...
> > > > For any specific service (IPv4 VPN Over SRv6 Core, for example, to =
pick
> > > > one), should the behaviors used "in practice" be enforced? What if
> > > > different behavior is advertised? Can it safely be ignored?

These two are related: Should only specific behaviors (per service) be
accepted?

If yes, I need you to specify which are those behaviors and what
happens if a different (known) one is received.

If no, what does it mean for the service if an unrelated behavior is advert=
ised?




> > > > What should the receiver do if the endpoint behavior is known and
> > > > applicable, but the attribute length is not set correctly?
> > >
> > > KT> Could you clarify which attribute length you are referring to?
> >
> > Sorry, I meant the argument... :-(
>
> KT> The behavior definition may or may not specify requirements of argume=
nt
> lengths - the currently defined ones do not pose any limitation and so th=
e
> draft talks about zero or non-zero. We can clarify by saying something on=
 the
> lines that for behaviors where arguments apply, the argument length's
> consistency must be verified against the behavior definition. Would that
> address your comment?

Yes, it would.

Also, if the verification fails then what?



> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
> > > > COMMENT:
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
> > ...
> >
> > Just one comment:
> >
> >
> > ...
> > > > (8) =C2=A75:
> > > >
> > > > The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS of the egress
> > > > PE and serves the dual purpose of providing reachability between
> > > > ingress PE and egress PE while also encoding the SRv6 Endpoint
> > > > behavior.
> > > >
> > > > Is it ever ok for the SID to not be routable? If so, when? The
> > > > "purpose of providing reachability" requires the SID to be routable=
.
> > > > IOW, why is this behavior recommended and not required?
> > >
> > > KT> An SRv6 SID may not be routable across multiple IGP domains withi=
n a
> > > provider network when routes are not leaked. There can be other
> > > mechanisms like SR Policies (or other forms of tunneling) that provid=
e
> > > reachability. In other scenarios, due to local policy, the resolution=
 may
> > > be desired over an SR Policy instead of the best-effort reachability
> > > provided by IGPs.
> >
> > If there's a route over a tunnel/SR Policy/whatever, I consider that
> > routable. I am not just thinking about IGP-learned routes. The case
> > that concerns me is when the ingress PE doesn't have a route at all
> > (which is possible with the SHOULD). If a route should always exist
> > (from any source) then it looks like the text should indicate a
> > requirement and not a recommendation.
>
> KT> The should is to allow for use-cases such as the one specified in
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-
> policy-18#section-8.5 - in this case, there may not be any reachability b=
ut
> the local policy indicates triggering a request to a controller to comput=
e SR
> Policy path to the BGP NH on demand and then the resolution can happen on=
ce
> such an SR Policy is successfully instantiated on the node.

The end result is that the SID MUST be reachable before the ingress
node can do anything with it. =C2=A0As you say: "the resolution can happen
once such an SR Policy is successfully instantiated on the node". =C2=A0The
mechanisms to provide that resolution (IGP, manual configuration,
controller, etc.) is independent of the requirement for there to be
reachability.

Alvaro.


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From: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" 
To: "bess@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is only remote )
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Subject: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is only remote )
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All,
Please send me slot request for IETF 113. Please note BESS session would be=
 only remote since none of the chairs are able to travel in person this tim=
e.


Mankamana

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All, 


Please send me slot=
 request for IETF 113. Please note BESS session would be only remote since =
none of the chairs are able to travel in person this time.



 


 


Mankamana 






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From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 10:39:12 -0500
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To: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" 
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Please send me slot request for IETF 113 (BESS is only remote )
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Hi Mankamana

I would like to request a 10 minute time slot for both drafts below:

This draft we will be discussing name change to IPv6-Only PE design and
updates as well as changing from BCP to Standards Track as to the design
and paradigm shift for all PE-CE edge and inter-as PE-PE peering framework
which impacts IXP POPs worldwide related to IPv4 address depletion issues.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-ipv6-only-pe-design/

Also discuss how the draft below is an extension to the above draft and is
all inclusive of all AFI/SAFI single IPv6-Only PE design extensibility
framework and would be also Standards Track.

Also discuss the R&D testing and implementation being done by vendors
Cisco, Juniper, Nokia, Arista and Huawei and the additional testing being
incorporated given the =E2=80=9Call safi=E2=80=9D draft below.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mishra-bess-ipv4nlri-all-safi-ipv6nh=
/



Kind Regards

Gyan

On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:22 AM Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)  wrote:

> All,
>
> Please send me slot request for IETF 113. Please note BESS session would
> be only remote since none of the chairs are able to travel in person this
> time.
>
>
>
>
>
> Mankamana
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
> BESS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
>
--=20



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

--000000000000dbcec205d84cafaf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi=C2=A0Mankamana

I would like to request a 10 minute time slot for both drafts b=
elow:

This draft we will=
 be discussing name change to IPv6-Only PE design and updates as well as ch=
anging from BCP to Standards Track as to the design and paradigm shift for =
all PE-CE edge and inter-as PE-PE peering framework which impacts IXP POPs =
worldwide related to IPv4 address depletion issues.
=


Also discuss how the draft below is an extension to the abov=
e draft and is all inclusive of all AFI/SAFI single IPv6-Only PE design ext=
ensibility framework and would be also Standards Track. =C2=A0

Also discuss the R&D testing and=
 implementation being done by vendors Cisco, Juniper, Nokia, Arista and Hua=
wei and the additional testing being incorporated given the =E2=80=9Call sa=
fi=E2=80=9D draft below.



Kind Regards=C2=A0

<=
div dir=3D"auto">Gyan

On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:22 AM Mankamana Mishra=
 (mankamis) <mankamis=3D40=
cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:











All, 


Please send me slot r=
equest for IETF 113. Please note BESS session would be only remote since no=
ne of the chairs are able to travel in person this time.



=C2=A0<=
/span>


=C2=A0<=
/span>


Mankamana <=
/u>






_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess


-- 


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 21:23:08 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Alvaro Retana 
Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org,  The IESG , BESS ,  "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" 
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Subject: Re: [bess] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Alvaro,

Please check inline below for a few responses.


On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 5:52 PM Alvaro Retana 
wrote:

> On February 18, 2022 at 12:23:03 AM, Ketan Talaulikar wrote:
>
>
> Hi!
>
>
> > > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...
> > > > > Clearly (from looking at rfc8986), not all endpoint behaviors
> apply to
> > > > > the services defined in this document. Should a receiver accept a=
ny
> > > > > endpoint behavior? What should a receiver do if a known but
> unrelated
> > > > > behavior (End, for example) is received?
> ...
> > > > > For any specific service (IPv4 VPN Over SRv6 Core, for example, t=
o
> pick
> > > > > one), should the behaviors used "in practice" be enforced? What i=
f
> > > > > different behavior is advertised? Can it safely be ignored?
>
> These two are related: Should only specific behaviors (per service) be
> accepted?
>
> If yes, I need you to specify which are those behaviors and what
> happens if a different (known) one is received.
>
> If no, what does it mean for the service if an unrelated behavior is
> advertised?
>

KT> So, this would be a result of a bug (?) on the egress PE that signals a
wrong behavior. Since the receiver is not validating, the service traffic
would still arrive at the egress PE but the handling might be erroneous due
to wrong behavior. The issue still manifests on the egress PE due to its
bug. Somewhat similar to what might happen if the egress PE were to signal
a label associated with a wrong context/service as a VPN label in MPLS VPNs=
.


>
>
>
>
> > > > > What should the receiver do if the endpoint behavior is known and
> > > > > applicable, but the attribute length is not set correctly?
> > > >
> > > > KT> Could you clarify which attribute length you are referring to?
> > >
> > > Sorry, I meant the argument... :-(
> >
> > KT> The behavior definition may or may not specify requirements of
> argument
> > lengths - the currently defined ones do not pose any limitation and so
> the
> > draft talks about zero or non-zero. We can clarify by saying something
> on the
> > lines that for behaviors where arguments apply, the argument length's
> > consistency must be verified against the behavior definition. Would tha=
t
> > address your comment?
>
> Yes, it would.
>

KT> Thanks.


>
> Also, if the verification fails then what?
>

KT> That is already covered by the existing text in sec 8 - such a route
would be considered ineligible during the selection of the best path by the
receiver.


>
>
>
> > > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > COMMENT:
> > > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Just one comment:
> > >
> > >
> > > ...
> > > > > (8) =C2=A75:
> > > > >
> > > > > The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS of the egre=
ss
> > > > > PE and serves the dual purpose of providing reachability between
> > > > > ingress PE and egress PE while also encoding the SRv6 Endpoint
> > > > > behavior.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it ever ok for the SID to not be routable? If so, when? The
> > > > > "purpose of providing reachability" requires the SID to be
> routable.
> > > > > IOW, why is this behavior recommended and not required?
> > > >
> > > > KT> An SRv6 SID may not be routable across multiple IGP domains
> within a
> > > > provider network when routes are not leaked. There can be other
> > > > mechanisms like SR Policies (or other forms of tunneling) that
> provide
> > > > reachability. In other scenarios, due to local policy, the
> resolution may
> > > > be desired over an SR Policy instead of the best-effort reachabilit=
y
> > > > provided by IGPs.
> > >
> > > If there's a route over a tunnel/SR Policy/whatever, I consider that
> > > routable. I am not just thinking about IGP-learned routes. The case
> > > that concerns me is when the ingress PE doesn't have a route at all
> > > (which is possible with the SHOULD). If a route should always exist
> > > (from any source) then it looks like the text should indicate a
> > > requirement and not a recommendation.
> >
> > KT> The should is to allow for use-cases such as the one specified in
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing=
-
> > policy-18#section-8.5 - in this case, there may not be any reachability
> but
> > the local policy indicates triggering a request to a controller to
> compute SR
> > Policy path to the BGP NH on demand and then the resolution can happen
> once
> > such an SR Policy is successfully instantiated on the node.
>
> The end result is that the SID MUST be reachable before the ingress
> node can do anything with it.  As you say: "the resolution can happen
> once such an SR Policy is successfully instantiated on the node".  The
> mechanisms to provide that resolution (IGP, manual configuration,
> controller, etc.) is independent of the requirement for there to be
> reachability.
>

KT> I believe we were discussing the part of the "SID being routable" as in
via routing protocol (i.e. IGP/BGP transport). The next paragraph is one
that covers the base BGP "resolvability" part and does elaborate on the
various mechanisms like "alternate steering mechanisms" (e.g. any tunnel,
SR Policy, etc.).

Thanks,
Ketan



>
> Alvaro.
>

--000000000000c0b4bb05d84ce144
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Alvaro,

Please chec=
k inline below for a few responses.


On Fri, Feb 18, 202=
2 at 5:52 PM Alvaro Retana <ar=
etana.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On February 18, 2022 at 12:23:03 AM, Ketan Talaulikar w=
rote:





Hi!





> > > > -------------------------------------------------------=
---------------

> > > > DISCUSS:

> > > > -------------------------------------------------------=
---------------

...

> > > > Clearly (from looking at rfc8986), not all endpoint beh=
aviors apply to

> > > > the services defined in this document. Should a receive=
r accept any

> > > > endpoint behavior? What should a receiver do if a known=
 but unrelated

> > > > behavior (End, for example) is received?

...

> > > > For any specific service (IPv4 VPN Over SRv6 Core, for =
example, to pick

> > > > one), should the behaviors used "in practice"=
 be enforced? What if

> > > > different behavior is advertised? Can it safely be igno=
red?



These two are related: Should only specific behaviors (per service) be

accepted?



If yes, I need you to specify which are those behaviors and what

happens if a different (known) one is received.



If no, what does it mean for the service if an unrelated behavior is advert=
ised?

KT> So, this would be a result=
 of a bug (?) on the egress PE that signals a wrong behavior. Since the rec=
eiver is not validating, the service traffic would still arrive at the egre=
ss PE but the handling might be erroneous due to wrong behavior. The issue =
still manifests on the egress PE due to its bug. Somewhat similar to what m=
ight happen if the egress PE were to signal a label associated with a wrong=
 context/service as a VPN label in MPLS VPNs.
=C2=A0









> > > > What should the receiver do if the endpoint behavior is=
 known and

> > > > applicable, but the attribute length is not set correct=
ly?

> > >

> > > KT> Could you clarify which attribute length you are refe=
rring to?

> >

> > Sorry, I meant the argument... :-(

>

> KT> The behavior definition may or may not specify requirements of =
argument

> lengths - the currently defined ones do not pose any limitation and so=
 the

> draft talks about zero or non-zero. We can clarify by saying something=
 on the

> lines that for behaviors where arguments apply, the argument length=
9;s

> consistency must be verified against the behavior definition. Would th=
at

> address your comment?



Yes, it would.

KT> Thanks.
=C2=A0



Also, if the verification fails then what?

<=
div>KT> That is already covered by the existing text in sec 8 -=C2=A0suc=
h a route would be considered ineligible during the selection of the best p=
ath by the receiver.
=C2=A0







> > > > -------------------------------------------------------=
---------------

> > > > COMMENT:

> > > > -------------------------------------------------------=
---------------

> > ...

> >

> > Just one comment:

> >

> >

> > ...

> > > > (8) =C2=A75:

> > > >

> > > > The SRv6 Service SID SHOULD be routable within the AS o=
f the egress

> > > > PE and serves the dual purpose of providing reachabilit=
y between

> > > > ingress PE and egress PE while also encoding the SRv6 E=
ndpoint

> > > > behavior.

> > > >

> > > > Is it ever ok for the SID to not be routable? If so, wh=
en? The

> > > > "purpose of providing reachability" requires =
the SID to be routable.

> > > > IOW, why is this behavior recommended and not required?=


> > >

> > > KT> An SRv6 SID may not be routable across multiple IGP d=
omains within a

> > > provider network when routes are not leaked. There can be ot=
her

> > > mechanisms like SR Policies (or other forms of tunneling) th=
at provide

> > > reachability. In other scenarios, due to local policy, the r=
esolution may

> > > be desired over an SR Policy instead of the best-effort reac=
hability

> > > provided by IGPs.

> >

> > If there's a route over a tunnel/SR Policy/whatever, I consid=
er that

> > routable. I am not just thinking about IGP-learned routes. The ca=
se

> > that concerns me is when the ingress PE doesn't have a route =
at all

> > (which is possible with the SHOULD). If a route should always exi=
st

> > (from any source) then it looks like the text should indicate a
> > requirement and not a recommendation.

>

> KT> The should is to allow for use-cases such as the one specified =
in

> https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-

> policy-18#section-8.5 - in this case, there may not be any reachabilit=
y but

> the local policy indicates triggering a request to a controller to com=
pute SR

> Policy path to the BGP NH on demand and then the resolution can happen=
 once

> such an SR Policy is successfully instantiated on the node.



The end result is that the SID MUST be reachable before the ingress

node can do anything with it.=C2=A0 As you say: "the resolution can ha=
ppen

once such an SR Policy is successfully instantiated on the node".=C2=
=A0 The

mechanisms to provide that resolution (IGP, manual configuration,

controller, etc.) is independent of the requirement for there to be

reachability.

KT> I believe we were =
discussing the part of the "SID being routable" as in via routing=
 protocol (i.e. IGP/BGP transport). The next paragraph is one that covers t=
he base BGP "resolvability" part and does elaborate on the variou=
s mechanisms like "alternate steering mechanisms" (e.g. any tunne=
l, SR Policy, etc.).

Thanks,
Ketan
=


=C2=A0



Alvaro.


On Sun, F=
eb 13, 2022 at 2:50 PM Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech> wrote:=












+1


=C2=A0


This is something I was a little confused about sinc=
e its been referenced in these emails time and again, and I was wondering i=
f I had missed something, but, I=E2=80=99ve checked to be 100%=C2=A0 certai=
n, RFC8950 which is what this document refers to
 explicitly states that the NLRI encoding =C2=A0of the destination must not=
 change =E2=80=93 and since the IPv4 NLRI leaves no provision for labels =
=E2=80=93 and =C2=A0makes it clear that SAFI 4 is used for MPLS =E2=80=93 M=
PLS doesn=E2=80=99t fall into SAFI 1.




In fact, what is described in 5.3 only results from =
the nature of SRv6, it states:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 SRv6 Service SID is encoded as part=
 of the SRv6 L3 Service TLV.=C2=A0 The


=C2=A0=C2=A0 SRv6 Endpoint behavior of the SRv6 =
SID is entirely up to the


=C2=A0=C2=A0 originator of the advertiseme=
nt.=C2=A0 In practice, the SRv6 Endpoint


=C2=A0=C2=A0 behavior is End.DX4 or End.DT=
4.


=C2=A0


Since 5.3 can operate in SAFI 1 (it explicitly refer=
s to Global IPv4 over SRv6 core =E2=80=93 which by correlation to 8950 is S=
AFI 1) and based on the wording of the above, this actually puts MPLS type =
functionality into SAFI 1 where it never was
 before, by using the SID as a normal address which is then dealt with as a=
 SID inside the domain.=C2=A0 But no =E2=80=93 this is not providing equal =
functionality for MPLS =E2=80=93 this is extending MPLS style functionality=
 into SAFI 1, which, if my reading of Warren=E2=80=99s discuss
 is accurate, is pretty much the essence of the problem.


=C2=A0


Thanks


=C2=A0


Andrew




=C2=A0




From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> 

Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2022 3:48 PM

To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>

Cc: Andrew - IETF <andrew-ietf@liquid.tech>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>; Bocci, M=
atthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; Warren Kumari <=
warren@kumari.net>; bess-chair=
s@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bess-srv6-services@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-s=
rv6-services-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)




=C2=A0




Gyan,




=C2=A0






MPLS is never sent in SAFI 1.=C2=A0





=C2=A0






Thx,

R.






=C2=A0






On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 5:47 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.co=
m> wrote:










Hi=C2=A0Robert






=C2=A0










On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 4:23 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net&=
gt; wrote:










Gyan,






=C2=A0










Section 5.3 and 5.4 cover GRT option and 5.3 using R=
FC 5549 next hop encoding.=C2=A0 In this case using GRT transport underlay =
layer now carry=E2=80=99s the customer routes and that is what Warren and A=
ndrew concern is as far as BGP leaks. =C2=A0








=C2=A0






I would have the same concern so would VPN customers=
. No one is selling L2 or L3 VPN service to them=C2=A0distributing=C2=A0the=
ir reachability in the global routing table. They can do that all by themse=
lves and there is lot's of really solid tools
 or products to do that already without being locked to a single telco.=C2=
=A0












=C2=A0










Gyan> MPLS provides the capability for GRT native=
 routing =C2=A0SAFI 1 as well as SAFI 128, so in my opinion both should be =
supported by SRV6 as operators look to use SRv6 for a variety of use cases.=
 That=E2=80=99s my point as there should be complete
 feature parity between MPLS and SRv6 as to AFI / SAFI support.=C2=A0 Globa=
l Internet routing would not be the best use case for SAFI 1 GRT due to the=
 attack vector - agreed, but enterprise networks with internal customers wh=
ere there is a trust level is a huge
 use case. =C2=A0
















=C2=A0








So when GRT is used the same edge filtering protecti=
on mechanisms used today for MPLS and SR-MPLS would apply to SRv6 for GRT u=
se case.








=C2=A0






Not possible. It is not about=C2=A0filtering ... it =
is all about using globally routable SAFI vs private SAFIs to distribute cu=
stomer's reachability, IMO that should still be OTT only.=C2=A0<=
u>












=C2=A0










=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> As SRv6 source node is requir=
ement to encapsulation with IPv6 outer header and decapsulation at egress P=
E for SRv6-BE and SRv6-TE path steering the security issue brought up relat=
ed to 5.3 and 5.4 is not an issue requiring filtering
 per RFC 8402.=C2=A0 So routable and private SAFI scenario would be the sam=
e now due to encapsulation overlay for both.=C2=A0 Do you agree ?=

















=C2=A0








I don=E2=80=99t think we are saying 5.3 or 5.4 shoul=
d not be allowed but just to tighten up verbiage as far securing the domain=
.=C2=A0=C2=A0








=C2=A0






BGP filtering or policy is in hands of many people. =
As has been proven you can not tighten them strong enough=C2=A0not to leak.=
 The only natural way to tighten them is to use different=C2=A0plane to dis=
tribute private information what=C2=A0in this=C2=A0context
 means=C2=A0at=C2=A0least different BGP SAFI.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






So no - I do not agree with your observations.=C2=A0=













=C2=A0










=C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> I am not promoting use of SAFI=
 1 however I SRv6 should provide complete parity with MPLS to support both =
SAFI 1 and 128. There =C2=A0are plenty of use cases for SAFI 1 and it shoul=
d be supported with SRv6. =C2=A0




















=C2=A0






However I am for providing overlay reachability over=
 global IPv6 Internet to interconnect customer sites. But routing within th=
ose sites should not be traversing Internet routers and using SAFI 1.=C2=A0=







=C2=A0






Rgs,

Robert.






=C2=A0
















-- 




















3D"Image


Gyan Mishra


Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0


Email
gyan.s.mishr=
a@verizon.com<=
/u>



M 301 502-1347






=C2=A0