Subject: [bfcpbis] Status update on draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp [was: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis]

From: Christer Holmberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 07:04:49 +0000

Hi,

draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp was discussed at MMUSIC today.

At this moment there are no technical open issues. The plan is to add some editorial work, based on comments received during the session, and the add text regarding DTLS-usage drafts/specs that the draft updates. After that, unless something unexpected comes up, the draft should be ready for WGLC.

Regards,

Christer 

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Eckel (eckelcu) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 28 September 2015 18:50
To: Christer Holmberg <[email-masked]>; Tom Kristensen (tomkrist) <[email-masked]>
Cc: Alissa Cooper <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; Gonzalo Camarillo <[email-masked]>; Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis

Thanks Christer.

Tom, can you please post the corresponding update to the draft?

Cheers,
Charles

On 9/28/15, 3:07 AM, "bfcpbis on behalf of Christer Holmberg"
<[email-masked] on behalf of [email-masked]>
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>>In that case, I prefer Tom’s original suggestion,
>>
>>  What if we keep the text and adds this as an additional reference  
>> in the two new text passages proposed by Charles: "... [13], and  the 
>> clarifications defined in [draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp], ...".
>>
>>  Where [13] is a reference to RFC 5763.
>
>If that's something people can agree to, then can live with such 
>compromise :)
>
>Regards,
>
>Christer
>
>
>
>
>
>If it turns out that draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp updates RFC 5763, then 
>there is some redundancy. But that is better than having a hole when it 
>comes to backward compatibility with existing implementations, which is 
>what we will have today if we reference draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp only.
>
>Cheers,
>Charles
>
> 
>
>On 9/25/15, 2:21 AM, "Christer Holmberg" 
><[email-masked]>
>wrote:
>
>>Hi Charles,
>>
>>>As a simple example, we currently refer to rfc4582bis instead of the 
>>>eventual RFC. Assuming rfc4582bis does become an RFC, we would want 
>>>the RFC editor to update references to it and to RFCxxxx with the 
>>>actual RFC number.
>>>Similar here, we would want them to check with authors/chairs/ADs on 
>>>the state of draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp to see if we want to replace 
>>>our reference to RFC 5763 with a reference to it. This way we can 
>>>move forward while draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp continues to progress 
>>>as well.
>>
>>I don't think it's the same thing. First you talk about a draft, where 
>>the draft name will be replaced with the to-be-assigned RFC number. In 
>>the case of DTLS-SDP we are talking about two separate specifications.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Christer
>>
>>
>>On 9/24/15, 2:53 AM, "Christer Holmberg"
>><[email-masked]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Charles,
>>>
>>>I am still not sure I understand your suggestion: what is meant by 
>>>"as determined prior to publication"? When/where/who? :)
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Christer
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Charles Eckel (eckelcu) [mailto:[email-masked]]
>>>Sent: 22. syyskuuta 2015 17:05
>>>To: Christer Holmberg; Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)
>>>Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; 
>>>Alissa Cooper; Gonzalo Camarillo; Ben Campbell
>>>Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis
>>>
>>>I view referring to draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp now instead of RFC 
>>>5763 to be like writing a blank check. Debate is actively occurring 
>>>on the list, the normative language in RFC 5763 is expected to be 
>>>updated in multiple ways, and backward compatibility with the the 
>>>normative language provide in previous version of rfc4583bis is not 
>>>fully addressed. It seems more appropriate to me at this stage to 
>>>continue to refer to RFC 5763 with a note regarding updating or 
>>>replacing that reference with one to draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp, as 
>>>determined prior to publication.
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>Charles
>>>
>>>On 9/21/15, 11:48 PM, "Christer Holmberg"
>>><[email-masked]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>>I see. As this is a moving target, perhaps where we reference RFC
>>>>>5763 we can add a note for the RFC editor that 
>>>>>draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp is expected to add clarifications and 
>>>>>make changes to RFC 5763 that should be considered prior to 
>>>>>publication of rfc4583bis.
>>>>
>>>>I am not sure I understand. I don't think it's up to the RFC editor 
>>>>to make a decision whether the draft should reference DTLS-SDP.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Christer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 9/21/15, 11:23 AM, "Christer Holmberg"
>>>><[email-masked]>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>>RFC 5763, which is currently required for BFCP with DTLS reads:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   o  The endpoint MUST NOT use the connection attribute defined in
>>>>>>     [RFC4145 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4145>].
>>>>>
>>>>>Correct.
>>>>>
>>>>>And, IF we decide to use define usage of the 'connection' attribute 
>>>>>for DTLS, we would change that.
>>>>>
>>>>>However, a few days ago we sent an e-mail to the MMUSIC list, 
>>>>>suggesting that we should NOT use the 'connection' attribute for DTLS.
>>>>>Instead we should define a new attribute (for more details, please 
>>>>>see the MMUSIC list).
>>>>>
>>>>>>Section 5.1 of draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp reads:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   When used with DTLS, there is no default value defined for the
>>>>>>   attribute.  Implementations that wish to use the attribute MUST
>>>>>>   explicitly include it in SDP offers and answers.  If an offer or
>>>>>>   answer does not contain an attribute, other means needs to be 
>>>>>>used in
>>>>>>   order for endpoints to determine whether an offer or answer is
>>>>>>   associated with an event that requires the DTLS association to 
>>>>>>be
>>>>>>re-
>>>>>>   established.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose if draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp pulls in enough from RFC
>>>>>>5763 to make it clear how the DTLS establishment and 
>>>>>>re-establishment works for the case of which the connection 
>>>>>>attribute is not used, then we can change the reference from RFC
>>>>>>5763 to draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last several updates of draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis have 
>>>>>>removed supporting text from the draft in favor of pointing to RFC
>>>>>>5763 as the  source of truth. I fear that 
>>>>>>draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp in its current state does not serve 
>>>>>>that need for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis. I value  Christer’s 
>>>>>>thoughts and welcome the opinion of others, especially those who 
>>>>>>have or are implementing BFCP with DTLS and ICE, which I have not.
>>>>>
>>>>>Please note that DTLS-SDP does not only define usage of the 
>>>>>'connection'
>>>>>attribute, it also does other things. Maybe more important, it does 
>>>>>not state that an address change by default requires a new DTLS 
>>>>>association
>>>>>- which is a another 5763 modification.
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>Christer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 9/21/15, 9:32 AM, "bfcpbis on behalf of Christer Holmberg"
>>>>><[email-masked] on behalf of 
>>>>>[email-masked]>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Charles,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The problem I see with this is that it is not just a matter of 
>>>>>>>changing the reference, it is also a matter of changing the 
>>>>>>>normative behavior.
>>>>>>>For DTLS with BFCP, we never required the use of the >“connection”
>>>>>>>attribute.
>>>>>>>If we are to start requiring it, we would need add text to 
>>>>>>>describe how to address backward compatibility in cases in which 
>>>>>>>the connection attribute is not specified.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The intention is to cover backward compatibility in the draft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Are there plans for this within RFC 5763bis draft? If so, Tom’s 
>>>>>>>recommendation of continuing to point to RFC 5763 for now may be 
>>>>>>>the best approach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am not familiar with the 5763bis draft. But, even if the 
>>>>>>DTLS-SDP draft makes updates to 5763, it won't become a 5763bis draft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Christer
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On 9/11/15, 1:11 PM, "Christer Holmberg"
>>>>>><[email-masked]>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hmm, yes maybe an idea if it's fine proceeding with referring a 
>>>>>>>>work-in-progress draft here.
>>>>>>>>What if we keep the text and adds this as an additional 
>>>>>>>>reference in the two new text passages proposed by Charles: "... 
>>>>>>>>[13], and the clarifications defined in [draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp], ...".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Where [13] is a reference to RFC 5763.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My suggestion is to *only* refer the new dtls-sdp draft. Because, 
>>>>>>>one of the ideas with the new draft is to also update RFC 5763 to 
>>>>>>>reference the new dtls-sdp draft.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Anyway, I'd still prefer to keep the text in
>>>>>>>>draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-12 and redirect the readers to the 
>>>>>>>>rfc5763bis, that eventually then will obsolete (or extend?) RFC 
>>>>>>>>5763.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The new dtls-sdp draft will not become 5763bis (eventhough it MAY 
>>>>>>>update some parts of 5763). It's a generic document, which *any* 
>>>>>>>DTLS usage can then reference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Christer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 09/11/2015 01:25 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My suggestion would actually be to refer to the new 
>>>>>>>>draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp, which is going to clarify the 
>>>>>>>>DTLS-SRTP rules regarding when a new DTLS association must be 
>>>>>>>>established.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Christer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Tom Kristensen [mailto:[email-masked]]
>>>>>>>> Sent: 11. syyskuuta 2015 13:25
>>>>>>>> To: Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
>>>>>>>> Cc: Christer Holmberg; Alissa Cooper; Gonzalo Camarillo; 
>>>>>>>> [email-masked]; Ben Campbell; 
>>>>>>>> [email-masked]
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pointing to the DTLS-SRTP (and by that any updates of it) is a 
>>>>>>>>simple, safe and straigt-forward solution.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only change in the new version of rfc4583bis just submitted.
>>>>>>>>And as Charles says, this should be the last missing fix for 
>>>>>>>>this draft until next stages in the process at least.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- Tom
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 09/08/2015 07:48 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrote:
>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>> Picking up on this old thread regarding 
>>>>>>>>>draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis.
>>>>>>>>> I think this is the only outstanding item with respect to the 
>>>>>>>>>current  version of the draft. Unless anyone has an issue with 
>>>>>>>>>the proposed  resolution, I request we update the draft 
>>>>>>>>>accordingly and then use it  as the basis for Mary, the 
>>>>>>>>>document shepherd, to provide a proto writeup.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/20/15, 10:39 AM, "Charles Eckel 
>>>>>>>>>(eckelcu)"<[email-masked]>
>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Christer,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I reread the current draft and went through the following 
>>>>>>>>>> MMUSIC thread on this subject:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg14631.
>>>>>>>>>> h
>>>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>> l
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a result, I better understand the issue you are addressing.
>>>>>>>>>> I suggest the following changes to be consistent with what is 
>>>>>>>>>> being proposed in
>>>>>>>>>> MMUSIC:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>> Section 9:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OLD:
>>>>>>>>>> Endpoints that use the offer/answer model to establish a DTLS
>>>>>>>>>>     association MUST support the 'setup' attribute, as 
>>>>>>>>>>defined in [7].
>>>>>>>>>> When DTLS is used with UDP, the 'setup' attribute indicates 
>>>>>>>>>>which of the endpoints (client or floor control server) 
>>>>>>>>>>initiates the DTLS association setup. The requirements for the 
>>>>>>>>>>offer/answer exchange specified in [13], Section 5 of [13] 
>>>>>>>>>>MUST be followed when using DTLS.
>>>>>>>>>> Offer/answer considerations are described in Section 10.5.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>> When DTLS is used with UDP, the requirements specified in 
>>>>>>>>>> Section
>>>>>>>>>> 5 of [13] MUST be followed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Section 10.5
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OLD
>>>>>>>>>>     If the transport parameters or the key fingerprints 
>>>>>>>>>>change, the
>>>>>>>>>>     endpoints MUST establish a new DTLS connection.  In such 
>>>>>>>>>>case the
>>>>>>>>>>     'active/passive' status of the endpoints will again be 
>>>>>>>>>>determined
>>>>>>>>>>     following the procedures in [7], and the new status will 
>>>>>>>>>>be used to
>>>>>>>>>>     determine the TLS roles associated with the new DTLS 
>>>>>>>>>>connection.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>        Informational note: The procedure above is identical 
>>>>>>>>>>to the one
>>>>>>>>>>        defined for DTLS-SRTP in [13].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>        Note: A new DTLS connection needs to be established if 
>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>        transport parameters or the key fingerprints change.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>> The conditions under which endpoints MUST establish a new 
>>>>>>>>>> DTLS connection are as the same defined for DTLS-SRTP in [13].
>>>>>>>>>> ————————
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This way we avoid any potential conflicts with the intent of 
>>>>>>>>>> RFC 5763, and when clarifications to RFC 5763 are made, they 
>>>>>>>>>> will be picked up by the BFCP spec.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/18/15, 2:01 PM, "Christer 
>>>>>>>>>> Holmberg"<[email-masked]>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>        
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Charles,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>        
>>>>>>>>>>>> [adding bfcppbis list]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Christer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your review and comments. In the BFCP usage, the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>DTLS connection is dedicated to the BFCP stream it contains.
>>>>>>>>>>>>As I understand it, the complications around DTLS 
>>>>>>>>>>>>re-establishement discussed in MMUSIC result from use of a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>single DTLS connection for multiple RTP and/or SCTP streams.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Those complications do not exist with the BFCP usage, so I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>think it is sufficient to continue to reference RFC 5763 and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>not use the SDP connection attribute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>>>> The complications do not result from use of a single DTLS 
>>>>>>>>>>>connection for multiple streams - it mainly results from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>usage of ICE. And, as far as I know, ICE can be used also for 
>>>>>>>>>>>BFCP.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And, even without ICE we intend to add text saying that a 
>>>>>>>>>>>DTLS connection is only re-established if the underlying 
>>>>>>>>>>>transport changes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Christer
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>        
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> First, I want to apologize for not providing my review 
>>>>>>>>>>>>earlier.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the BFCP specifics are concerned, I am ok with 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the latest version of the draft.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, there is an issue regarding the DTLS 
>>>>>>>>>>>> considerations (section 10.5).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The text says:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 	"Once a DTLS connection has been established, if the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>'active/passive'
>>>>>>>>>>>>     	status of the endpoints change during a session, a new 
>>>>>>>>>>>>DTLS
>>>>>>>>>>>>     	connection MUST be established."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is currently an ongoing discussion in MMUSIC about 
>>>>>>>>>>>> when a DTLS connection is to be re-established.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The discussion is still ongoing, but the outcome will most 
>>>>>>>>>>>> likely NOT be aligned with the text above.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, there has been a suggestion (by myself) to use 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the SDP connection attribute to explicitly indicate that a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> new DTLS connection needs to be established.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The draft also says:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 	"If the transport parameters or the key fingerprints 
>>>>>>>>>>>>change, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     	endpoints MUST establish a new DTLS connection."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is related to the earlier issue. There is the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>discussion about ICE "virtual connections", and that a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>single DTLS connection would apply to all ICE candidates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>associated with an
>>>>>>>>>>>> m- line. So, even if a candidate changes (read: transport 
>>>>>>>>>>>>parameter changes), it would not automatically trigger a new 
>>>>>>>>>>>>DTLS connection.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The issues above are also holding up the SCTP-SDP draft, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>> it doesn't only affect BFCPbis :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christer
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:[email-masked]]
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 8. huhtikuuta 2015 3:07
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Gonzalo Camarillo; Tom Kristensen (tomkrist); 
>>>>>>>>>>>> [email-masked]; Ben Campbell; 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Adding Christer to this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 7, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email-masked]>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christer (cc’d) and I discussed some of the changes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> offlist in Dallas, and he is to come back to the list with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> comments after Dallas
>>>>>>>>>>>>> - which is now :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/7/15, 10:26 AM, "Alissa Cooper"<[email-masked]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Checking in on this — has Christer been prompted to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> review the latest rev of draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 9:14 AM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email-masked]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of the changes I this recent update to rfc4583bis 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were inspired by comments and suggested text provided by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Christer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He is in the process of reviewing. If all goes well with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that, we are ready to proceed with proto writeup (Mary) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and AD review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/25/15, 7:01 AM, "Alissa Cooper"<[email-masked]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rfc4583 has not had an AD review yet. Richard can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hopefully take care of that while I¹m on leave (starting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>today, actually).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 2:56 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email-masked]>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alissa,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have noted that while rfc4582bis in on the agenda of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the March 5th telechat (thanks for handling that!), 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rfc4583bis isn't. Tom revised rfc4583bis on February 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>20th. Should rfc4583bis be on the agenda of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>telechat as well or there is still something left for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tom to take care of?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/02/2015 9:28 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pinging on this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> March 5 will likely be my last telechat before going  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on leave, so  it would be great to get this scheduled  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on that one. To do that,  the rev needs to be posted 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The updates are pretty minimal  and are all basically  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>written up in Charles¹ response to my AD review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 15, 2015, at 9:13 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email-masked] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email-masked]>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have talked offline with the other authors and Tom 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is holding the pen. Tom, do you think you can meet 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the time frame below?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---- Alissa Cooper wrote ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just wanted to see if this rev might get done in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next couple  of days. If so, we could get it on the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next telechat agenda (March 5).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Alissa Cooper<[email-masked] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email-masked]>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: **Re: [bfcpbis] AD evaluation:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-12*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *February 9, 2015 at 3:58:52 PM PST
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *"Charles Eckel (eckelcu)"<[email-masked] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email-masked]>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *"[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email-masked]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email-masked]>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Charles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, some responses inline.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HI Alissa,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the review. Please see my thoughts 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on your comments and questions inline.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Alissa Cooper<[email-masked] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email-masked]>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 10:19 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [bfcpbis] AD evaluation:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-12
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have reviewed this draft in preparation for IETF LC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Overall the document appears in good shape. I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a few questions and comments I¹d like to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss before issuing the IETF last call. I¹ve 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also included some editorial nits that should be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> addressed together with any last call comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Comments and questions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 5.1 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "If an endpoint receives a message with an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsupported version field value, the receiving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server MUST send an Error message with parameter 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value 12 (Unsupported
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Version) to indicate this.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This seems a little misleading since RFC 4582 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>didn¹t specify what to do upon receipt of a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>message with a version other than 1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Implementations that do not get upgraded to be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>compliant with  4582bis (which could certainly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>account for some of those that  will not support 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>version 2) will therefore never send the  error 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>specified here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This seems like it should at least be  noted 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>given the MUST-level requirement. The same applies 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in Section 13.7.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good point. I believe we made this a MUST because 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we were thinking in terms of implementations 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compliant with this bis version.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your suggested note about rfc 4582 implementations 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here and in  section 13.7 seems useful to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 7 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "BFCP entities MUST support, at a minimum, the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA ciphersuite [6].²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I realize this requirement comes from RFC 4582, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I¹d like to understand why it has not been 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> updated to be consistent with more current 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guidance on cipher suite selection (e.g.,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-uta-tls-bc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> p
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> s
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> c
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -4)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about we keep this minimum requirement, and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> add a reference to draft-ietf-uta-tls-bcp along 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a recommendation to adhere to the best 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practices it outlines in section 4?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think MUST support TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for backwards compatibility and SHOULD support the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones listed in the UTA drafts would be ok.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Sections 8, 8.1, 8.2 = It seems like the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>transaction ID requirements regarding 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>non-reuse/monotonically increasing IDs are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>re-stated multiple times across these three 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sections, in slightly different ways, to the point 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>where it¹s not clear exactly what they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems like they are:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) Reliable transport, server-initiated transaction:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ID is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) Unreliable transport, server-initiated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>transaction:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ID MUST be monotonically increasing (except for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrap-around)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (3) Reliable transport, client-initiated transaction:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ID MUST NOT be 0 and MUST NOT be reused in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>another message from the client until a response 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from the server is received for the transaction, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but need not be monotonically increasing (e.g., a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lower, recently used ID could be re-used once a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>response is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> received)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (4) Unreliable transport, client-initiated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>transaction:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ID MUST be monotonically increasing (except for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrap-around)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is (3) the correct interpretation of the text in 8.1?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, why not just require IDs in all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>client-initiated transactions to be monotonically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>increasing?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agree we can and should simplify this. Sections 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.1 and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.2 cover the client behavior and server behavior 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in detail. As such, the transaction ID related 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information at the start of Section 8 is superfluous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I recommend reducing the text in Section 8 to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> follow:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8. Protocol Transactions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In BFCP, there are two types of transactions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> client-initiated transactions and server-initiated 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transactions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Client-initiated transactions consist of a request 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from a client to a floor control server and a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response from the floor control server to the client.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Server-initiated transactions have different 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior depending on underlying transport:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      When using a reliable transport, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server-initiated transactions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      consist of a single message from a floor 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>control server to a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      client (notifications).  They do not trigger 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any response.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      When using an unreliable transport, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server-initiated transactions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      consist of a request from a floor control 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server to a client and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      response from the client to the floor control 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When using BFCP over an unreliable transport, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>retransmission timer T1 (see Section 8.3) MUST be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>used for all requests until the transaction is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>completed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then in section 8.1, we add the important details 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> removed from section 8.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.1.1 Client Behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A client starting a client-initiated transaction 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MUST set the Conference ID in the common header of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the message to the Conference ID for the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conference that the client obtained previously.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The client MUST set the Transaction ID value in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the common header to a number that is different 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from 0 and that MUST NOT be reused in another 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>message from the client until a response from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server is received for the transaction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The client uses the Transaction ID value to match 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this message with the response from the floor 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>control server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When using BFCP over an unreliable transport, it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is important to choose a Transaction ID value that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lets the receiver distinguish the reception of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>next message in a sequence of BFCP messages from a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>retransmission of a previous message.  Therefore, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BFCP entities using an unreliable transport MUST 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>use monotonically increasing Transaction ID values 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(except for wrap-around).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A client receiving a server-initiated transaction 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>over an unreliable transport MUST copy the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Transaction ID from the request received from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server into the response.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Question: is there a need to copy the Conference 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ID and  User ID, if present?]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.2. Server Behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A floor control server sending a response within a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>client-initiated transaction MUST copy the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Conference ID, the Transaction ID, and the User ID 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from the request received from the client into the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>response.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Server-initiated transactions MUST contain a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Transaction ID equal to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0 when BFCP is used over a reliable transport.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Over an unreliable transport, the Transaction ID 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>shall have the same properties as for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>client-initiated transactions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The server uses the Transaction ID value to match 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this message with the response from the floor 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>participant or floor chair.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, this is better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 9 (impacts Section 14 as well) = "BFCP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>clients  SHOULD authenticate the floor control 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server before  sending any BFCP message to it or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>accepting any BFCP message from it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Similarly, floor control servers SHOULD 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>authenticate a client before accepting any BFCP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>message from it or sending any BFCP message to it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BFCP supports TLS/DTLS mutual authentication 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>between clients and floor control servers, as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>specified in Section 9.1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is the RECOMMENDED authentication mechanism 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in BFCP.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the cases where clients and servers do 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not need  to be authenticating each other? I know 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this requirement  and the other SHOULD-level 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>requirements around use of  TLS/DTLS are carried 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>over from RFC 4582, but I¹m  concerned that they 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>aren¹t as strong as they should be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For a conference where the signaling traffic is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>authenticated and confidentiality and integrity 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>protected, why is it ok for the floor control 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>traffic not to be? Could these requirements be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>adjusted to require use of TLS/DTLS at least in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cases where the signaling is also protected?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but again, this would be at the expense of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adding a non backward compatible change from rfc 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4582. How about saying TLS/DTLS MUST be used for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BFCP in such cases, while pointing out the rfc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4582
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based implementations may not comply (similar to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we did with the version field).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Works for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to make all of these changes and submit a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rev and I¹ll issue the IETF LC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 14 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See the point above about ciphersuites. ³Non-null 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encryption² is not a sufficient minimum baseline, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and if the requirements change in Section 7 they 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be reflected here as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Editorial nits to be resolved with LC comments:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 5.1 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ³The version field MUST be set to 1 when using 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BFCP over a reliable transport, i.e. as in [2].²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I find it a little odd to reference the spec 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you¹re obsoleting in this sentence, especially 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>since BFCP over a reliable transport is completely 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>specified in this bis document. I would suggest 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dropping
the i.e.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>clause.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good catch. This is a carry over from before this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft was adopted as a bis version of rfc4582.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The version field MUST be set to 2 when using 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BFCP over an unreliable transport with the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extensions specified in this document.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bit about ³with the extensions specified in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this document² is extraneous and should be removed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "If an endpoint receives a message with an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsupported version field value, the receiving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server MUST send an Error message with parameter 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value 12 (Unsupported
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Version) to indicate this.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use of the word ³server² here makes it sound as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>if only servers could receive headers with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unsupported versions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should this be ³the receiving endpoint²?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 6.2.4 = "[23], Section 6.7 provides 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful recommendations Š²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The links in the references are not quite right.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 8.3.2 = s/when fires/when fired/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 14 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> s/high-jack/hijack/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section B.1 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "situation where multiple different and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-interoperable would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> co-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist in the market.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a word missing after ³non-interoperable."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This should read ³non-interoperable implementations².
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earlier in that same sentence, ³BFCP over UDP were 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>already used² should read ³BFCP over UDP is already 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>being used².
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bfcpbis mailing list 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>bfcpbis mailing list
>>>>>>[email-masked]
>>>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>bfcpbis mailing list
>[email-masked]
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis

---

From: Tom Kristensen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 08:45:25 +0100

Perfect! I'll update and polish the draft as discussed and agreed upon 
below and submit.

-- Tom

On 11/02/2015 08:04 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> To: Christer Holmberg<[email-masked]>; Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)<[email-masked]>
> Cc: Alissa Cooper<[email-masked]>; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; Gonzalo Camarillo<[email-masked]>; Ben Campbell<[email-masked]>
>>>>>>>      [RFC4145<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4145>].
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>> Correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For DTLS with BFCP, we never required the use of the>“connection”
>>>>>>>> attribute.

---

From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 08:25:55 +0000

Great, thanks Tom. I look forward to seeing the update posted before the
end of this week.

Cheers,
Charles

On 11/2/15, 4:45 PM, "Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)" <[email-masked]>
wrote:

>> At this moment there are no technical open issues. The plan is to add
>>some editorial work, based on comments received during the session, and
>>the add text regarding DTLS-usage drafts/specs that the draft updates.
>>After that, unless something unexpected comes up, the draft should be
>>ready for WGLC.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>>
>>
>> Cc: Alissa Cooper<[email-masked]>; [email-masked];
>>[email-masked]; Gonzalo
>>Camarillo<[email-masked]>; Ben Campbell<[email-masked]>

---

From: Christer Holmberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:39:39 +0000

Just a question for clarification: will the draft now adopt the 'dtls-connection' attribute defined in the DTLS-SDP draft?

Regards,

Christer

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Eckel (eckelcu) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 02 November 2015 10:26
To: Tom Kristensen (tomkrist) <[email-masked]>; Christer Holmberg <[email-masked]>
Cc: Alissa Cooper <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; Gonzalo Camarillo <[email-masked]>; Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Status update on draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp [was: [bfcpbis] draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis]

Great, thanks Tom. I look forward to seeing the update posted before the end of this week.

Cheers,
Charles

On 11/2/15, 4:45 PM, "Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)" <[email-masked]>
wrote:

>>some editorial work, based on comments received during the session, 
>>and the add text regarding DTLS-usage drafts/specs that the draft updates.
>>>> in the two new text passages proposed by Charles: "... [13], and  
>>>> the clarifications defined in [draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp], ...".
>>>>
>>> If it turns out that draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp updates RFC 5763, 
>>>then  there is some redundancy. But that is better than having a hole 
>>>when it  comes to backward compatibility with existing 
>>>implementations, which is  what we will have today if we reference 
>>>draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp only.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Charles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> As a simple example, we currently refer to rfc4582bis instead of 
>>>>> the eventual RFC. Assuming rfc4582bis does become an RFC, we would 
>>>>> want the RFC editor to update references to it and to RFCxxxx with 
>>>>> the actual RFC number.
>>>>> Similar here, we would want them to check with authors/chairs/ADs 
>>>>> on the state of draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp to see if we want to 
>>>>> replace our reference to RFC 5763 with a reference to it. This way 
>>>>> we can move forward while draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp continues to 
>>>>> progress as well.
>>>>>          
>>>> I don't think it's the same thing. First you talk about a draft, 
>>>> where the draft name will be replaced with the to-be-assigned RFC 
>>>> number. In the case of DTLS-SDP we are talking about two separate specifications.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Christer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cc: [email-masked]; 
>>>>> [email-masked]; Alissa Cooper; Gonzalo Camarillo; Ben Campbell
>>>>> 5763 to be like writing a blank check. Debate is actively 
>>>>> occurring on the list, the normative language in RFC 5763 is 
>>>>> expected to be updated in multiple ways, and backward 
>>>>> compatibility with the the normative language provide in previous 
>>>>> version of rfc4583bis is not fully addressed. It seems more 
>>>>> appropriate to me at this stage to continue to refer to RFC 5763 
>>>>> with a note regarding updating or replacing that reference with 
>>>>> one to draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp, as determined prior to publication.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Charles
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure I understand. I don't think it's up to the RFC 
>>>>>> editor to make a decision whether the draft should reference DTLS-SDP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Christer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, IF we decide to use define usage of the 'connection' 
>>>>>>> attribute for DTLS, we would change that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Instead we should define a new attribute (for more details, 
>>>>>>>please  see the MMUSIC list).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>            
>>>>>>>>    answer does not contain an attribute, other means needs to 
>>>>>>>>be  used in
>>>>>>>>    associated with an event that requires the DTLS association 
>>>>>>>>to  be
>>>>>>>> re-
>>>>>>>>    established.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that need for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis. I value  
>>>>>>>> Christer’s thoughts and welcome the opinion of others, 
>>>>>>>> especially those who have or are implementing BFCP with DTLS and ICE, which I have not.
>>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> attribute, it also does other things. Maybe more important, it 
>>>>>>> does not state that an address change by default requires a new 
>>>>>>> DTLS association
>>>>>>>>> describe how to address backward compatibility in cases in 
>>>>>>>>> which the connection attribute is not specified.
>>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>>> Are there plans for this within RFC 5763bis draft? If so, 
>>>>>>>>> Tom’s recommendation of continuing to point to RFC 5763 for 
>>>>>>>>> now may be the best approach.
>>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, yes maybe an idea if it's fine proceeding with referring 
>>>>>>>>>>a  work-in-progress draft here.
>>>>>>>>> My suggestion is to *only* refer the new dtls-sdp draft. 
>>>>>>>>> Because, one of the ideas with the new draft is to also update 
>>>>>>>>> RFC 5763 to reference the new dtls-sdp draft.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-12 and redirect the readers to 
>>>>>>>>>> the rfc5763bis, that eventually then will obsolete (or 
>>>>>>>>>> extend?) RFC 5763.
>>>>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>>> The new dtls-sdp draft will not become 5763bis (eventhough it 
>>>>>>>>> MAY update some parts of 5763). It's a generic document, which 
>>>>>>>>> *any* DTLS usage can then reference.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Christer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Pointing to the DTLS-SRTP (and by that any updates of it) is 
>>>>>>>>>> a simple, safe and straigt-forward solution.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think this is the only outstanding item with respect to 
>>>>>>>>>>> the current  version of the draft. Unless anyone has an 
>>>>>>>>>>> issue with the proposed  resolution, I request we update the 
>>>>>>>>>>> draft accordingly and then use it  as the basis for Mary, 
>>>>>>>>>>> the document shepherd, to provide a proto writeup.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I suggest the following changes to be consistent with what 
>>>>>>>>>>>> is being proposed in
>>>>>>>>>>>> MMUSIC:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>> Section 9:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OLD:
>>>>>>>>>>>> initiates the DTLS association setup. The requirements for 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the offer/answer exchange specified in [13], Section 5 of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> [13] MUST be followed when using DTLS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>      endpoints MUST establish a new DTLS connection.  In 
>>>>>>>>>>>> such case the
>>>>>>>>>>>>      following the procedures in [7], and the new status 
>>>>>>>>>>>> will be used to
>>>>>>>>>>>>         Informational note: The procedure above is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> identical to the one
>>>>>>>>>>>>         Note: A new DTLS connection needs to be established 
>>>>>>>>>>>> if the
>>>>>>>>>>>> This way we avoid any potential conflicts with the intent 
>>>>>>>>>>>> of RFC 5763, and when clarifications to RFC 5763 are made, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> they will be picked up by the BFCP spec.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your review and comments. In the BFCP usage, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the DTLS connection is dedicated to the BFCP stream it contains.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-establishement discussed in MMUSIC result from use of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a single DTLS connection for multiple RTP and/or SCTP streams.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those complications do not exist with the BFCP usage, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it is sufficient to continue to reference RFC 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5763 and not use the SDP connection attribute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>>>>>> connection for multiple streams - it mainly results from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the usage of ICE. And, as far as I know, ICE can be used 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> also for BFCP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      	status of the endpoints change during a session, a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new DTLS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The discussion is still ongoing, but the outcome will 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most likely NOT be aligned with the text above.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, there has been a suggestion (by myself) to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use the SDP connection attribute to explicitly indicate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that a new DTLS connection needs to be established.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The draft also says:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parameter changes), it would not automatically trigger a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new DTLS connection.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The issues above are also holding up the SCTP-SDP draft, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so it doesn't only affect BFCPbis :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email-masked]; Ben 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Campbell; Christer Holmberg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offlist in Dallas, and he is to come back to the list 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with comments after Dallas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - which is now :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were inspired by comments and suggested text provided 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Christer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He is in the process of reviewing. If all goes well 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with that, we are ready to proceed with proto writeup 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Mary) and AD review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hopefully take care of that while I¹m on leave 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (starting today, actually).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have noted that while rfc4582bis in on the agenda 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the March 5th telechat (thanks for handling 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that!), rfc4583bis isn't. Tom revised rfc4583bis on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> February 20th. Should rfc4583bis be on the agenda of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the telechat as well or there is still something 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> left for Tom to take care of?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> March 5 will likely be my last telechat before 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going on leave, so  it would be great to get this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scheduled on that one. To do that,  the rev needs 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be posted today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The updates are pretty minimal  and are all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically written up in Charles¹ response to my AD review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have talked offline with the other authors and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom is holding the pen. Tom, do you think you can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meet the time frame below?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just wanted to see if this rev might get done in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next couple  of days. If so, we could get it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the next telechat agenda (March 5).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Charles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also included some editorial nits that should 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be addressed together with any last call comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Comments and questions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 5.1 = "If an endpoint receives a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message with an unsupported version field 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value, the receiving server MUST send an Error 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message with parameter value 12 (Unsupported
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account for some of those that  will not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support version 2) will therefore never send 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the  error specified here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given the MUST-level requirement. The same 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applies in Section 13.7.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good point. I believe we made this a MUST 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because we were thinking in terms of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementations compliant with this bis version.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your suggested note about rfc 4582 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementations here and in  section 13.7 seems useful to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 7 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for backwards compatibility and SHOULD support 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ones listed in the UTA drafts would be ok.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sections, in slightly different ways, to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point where it¹s not clear exactly what they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems like they are:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but need not be monotonically increasing (e.g., 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a lower, recently used ID could be re-used once 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a response is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> received)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> client-initiated transactions to be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> monotonically increasing?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.2 cover the client behavior and server 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior in detail. As such, the transaction ID 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> related information at the start of Section 8 is superfluous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> client-initiated transactions and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server-initiated transactions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Client-initiated transactions consist of a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> request from a client to a floor control server 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a response from the floor control server to the client.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       client (notifications).  They do not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trigger any response.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       response from the client to the floor 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retransmission timer T1 (see Section 8.3) MUST 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be used for all requests until the transaction 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is completed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then in section 8.1, we add the important 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> details removed from section 8.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.1.1 Client Behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MUST set the Conference ID in the common header 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the message to the Conference ID for the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message from the client until a response from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the server is received for the transaction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The client uses the Transaction ID value to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match this message with the response from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> floor control server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is important to choose a Transaction ID value 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that lets the receiver distinguish the reception 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the next message in a sequence of BFCP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messages from a retransmission of a previous 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message.  Therefore, BFCP entities using an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unreliable transport MUST use monotonically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> increasing Transaction ID values (except for wrap-around).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A client receiving a server-initiated 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction over an unreliable transport MUST 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copy the Transaction ID from the request 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> received from the server into the response.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Question: is there a need to copy the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Conference ID and  User ID, if present?]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.2. Server Behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A floor control server sending a response within 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a client-initiated transaction MUST copy the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The server uses the Transaction ID value to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match this message with the response from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> floor participant or floor chair.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                              
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, this is better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                            
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 9 (impacts Section 14 as well) = 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "BFCP clients  SHOULD authenticate the floor 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control server before  sending any BFCP message 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to it or accepting any BFCP message from it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is the RECOMMENDED authentication 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mechanism in BFCP.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not need  to be authenticating each other? I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know this requirement  and the other 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SHOULD-level requirements around use of  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TLS/DTLS are carried over from RFC 4582, but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I¹m  concerned that they aren¹t as strong as they should be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to make all of these changes and submit 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a rev and I¹ll issue the IETF LC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                            
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 14 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See the point above about ciphersuites. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ³Non-null encryption² is not a sufficient 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minimum baseline, and if the requirements 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change in Section 7 they should be reflected here as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                              
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 5.1 = ³The version field MUST be set 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to 1 when using BFCP over a reliable transport, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i.e. as in [2].²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since BFCP over a reliable transport is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely specified in this bis document. I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would suggest dropping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                
>> the i.e.
>>    
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clause.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good catch. This is a carry over from before 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this draft was adopted as a bis version of rfc4582.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                              
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server MUST send an Error message with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parameter value 12 (Unsupported
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section B.1 = "situation where multiple 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different and non-interoperable would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> co-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist in the market.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earlier in that same sentence, ³BFCP over UDP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were already used² should read ³BFCP over UDP is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already being used².
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

---

From: Tom Kristensen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 09:25:14 +0100

I have to study the latest version of draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp to 
tell, but as of know I think we may need a new section similar to "8.1.  
TCP Connection Management" for DTLS/UDP, where amongst other things the 
'dtls-connection' will be mentioned.

-- Tom

On 11/02/2015 11:39 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> To: Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)<[email-masked]>; Christer Holmberg<[email-masked]>
> On 11/2/15, 4:45 PM, "Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)"<[email-masked]>
> wrote:
>
>    
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >from the server is received for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                    
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >from the request received from the client into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

---

From: Christer Holmberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 13:57:19 +0000

Hi,

>'dtls-connection' will be mentioned.

The issue is that the text we agreed upon talks about "clarifications". 

But, draft-dtls-sdp is more than clarifications - it is also new stuff (e.g. the 'dtls-connection' attribute) - so it needs to be clear whether that is included or not.

Regards,

Christer

---

From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:51:12 +0000

Christer,

Has the MMUSIC working group decided that draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp will
NOT update RFC 5763? It currently references it extensively, but according
to the boilerplate it does not explicitly update RFC 5763.

The draft now includes better backward compatibility with respect to RFC
5763, which is good to see. I think we should be able to word things such
that we recommend using the new dtls-connection attribute while also
requiring support the absence of this attribute for backward
compatibility. This would be very straightforward if
draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp updates RFC 5763.

Cheers,
Charles

On 11/2/15, 7:39 PM, "Christer Holmberg" <[email-masked]>
wrote:

>Just a question for clarification: will the draft now adopt the
>'dtls-connection' attribute defined in the DTLS-SDP draft?
>
>Regards,
>
>Christer
>
>Cc: Alissa Cooper <[email-masked]>; [email-masked];
>[email-masked]; Gonzalo Camarillo
><[email-masked]>; Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>