Subject: [Cellar] Cellar meeting notes for 2022-09-28

From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:56:21 -0500

My notes from our meeting today ollow.

Please pay special attention to the proposed final dates for Cellar meeting
dates in 2022, which are as follows

   - 2022-02-22
   - 2022-03-29
   - 2022-04-26
   - 2022-05-24
   - 2022-06-28
   - 2022-08-23
   - 2022-09-27
   - 2022-10-25
   - 2022-12-06

If we don't make any changes to these dates, Michael and I will be
requesting approval from our AD for the meetings after our October virtual
meeting.
Best,

Spencer

CELLAR – DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting
DateTimeLocal Times
2021-09-28 21:00 Amsterdam Time Converter
<https://savvytime.com/converter/netherlands-amsterdam-to-utc-ny-new-york-city-ca-san-francisco/jun-22-2021/9pm>
Note Meeting time is anchored to Amsterdam
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Administrivia>Administrivia
<https://notes.ietf.org/#INFO>INFO:

https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/chair-notes/tree/master/interim-2021-07
Note that we’re now pointing to the Github repo for chair notes here
<https://notes.ietf.org/#WEB-CONFERENCE>WEB CONFERENCE:

https://whereby.com/cellar-interim

THERE IS NO TELEPHONE DIALIN (You can try connecting to the whereby.com link
at any time.)

We are still on whereby.com for this meeting, but still planning to move to
Meetecho for upcoming meetings. Please stay alert!
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Shared-COMIMD-for-notetaking-httpscodimdietforgnotes-cellar-virtual>Shared
COMIMD for notetaking: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-cellar-virtual

   - Note that if you log in to the IETF datatracker, you’ll be able to
   edit these notes, add your name to attendee lists, etc.
   - Please ask Spencer if you have questions.

The ComiMD URL is still redirecting, but the newly official location is
https://notes.ietf.org/notes-cellar-virtual?edit - and that’s active now.
Please bookmark the new one when you’re redirected to it.
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Logistics-for-Meeting>Logistics for Meeting
<https://notes.ietf.org/#2021-virtual-interim-meeting-dates>2021 virtual
interim meeting dates

   - Please note our 2021 dates listed at
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/cellar/meetings/
   - October 26, 2021: 21:00 Paris (1900 UTC)
   - November 23, 2021: 21:00 Paris (2000 UTC)

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Agenda-Items>Agenda Items
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Note-Well-httpswwwietforgaboutnote-well>Note Well:
https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ <https://notes.ietf.org/#Roll-call>Roll
call

Attendees

   - Spencer Dawkins
   - Dave Rice
   - Michael Richardson
   - Jerome Martinez
   - Michael Niedermayer
   - Steve Lhomme
   - Martijn van Beurden

Regrets

   - Reto Kromer
   -

<https://notes.ietf.org/#News-You-Can-Use>News You Can Use

   - NOTE that https://mediaarea.net/NoTimeToWait5 is December 8-10, with
   in-person and virtual registration - are Cellar people attending?
   ** workshop on improving Matroska, and how to improve FFV1.
   ** the workshops are on December 8, meeting 9/10.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Default-dates-for-2022-Cellar-meetings>Default
dates for 2022 Cellar meetings

   - 2022-01-25
   - 2022-02-22
   - 2022-03-22 (but this is IETF 113 - move it to 2022-03-29)
   - 2022-04-26
   - 2022-05-24
   - 2022-06-28
   - 2022-07-26 (but this is IETF 114 - we canceled July in 2021. Is
   canceling July the right summer month to cancel? Yes - we MIGHT be meeting
   in person, at the IETF, but too soon to know that yet)
   - 2022-08-23
   - 2022-09-27
   - 2022-10-25
   - 2022-11-22 (this is Tuesday of American Thanksgiving - does anyone
   care?)
   - 2022-12-27 (but this is winter break for most of us, so we canceled in
   2021. Maybe move it to 2022-12-06, or is that too close to the November
   meeting?

proposed final dates:

   - 2022-01-25
   - 2022-02-22
   - 2022-03-29
   - 2022-04-26
   - 2022-05-24
   - 2022-06-28
   - 2022-08-23
   - 2022-09-27
   - 2022-10-25
   - 2022-12-06
   ACTION Spencer to confirm on mailing list

<https://notes.ietf.org/#WG-status-update>WG status update

   - draft-ietf-cellar-codec-06 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-v4-17 was posted 2021-05-25, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-flac-01 was posted 2021-04-27, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-matroska-07 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-tags-06 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Milestone-review>Milestone review:

   - Previous status: Jerome is now able to focus on FFV1-v4, since we’ve
   published FFV1. ACTION Spencer to send e-mail to DISPATCH when we submit
   a (small) update. We should wait until we have a bit more text, or bigger
   issues, to publish as a draft.
   - Are we ready to submit a working group draft for EBML updates (errata
   plus additions) yet? (
   https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/ebml-specification/tree/corrections-doc
   )
   - FLAC still needs an editor to complete the work. Michael did hear back
   from Florin, and he’s unable to serve as editor, so the working group has a
   decision to make about FLAC.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-the-call>Discussion on the call

   - Steve is waiting for reviews on Matroska (should we just merge
   everything? :-) Timescale looks like the tricky question, for now. Can
   start preliminary review on merged documents then. Planning to sort IDs for
   IANA (we have over 100 of them) - want to make sure this is easy to verify
   correctness.
   IANA will accept XML file for everything
   - When RFC for Matroska is published, do we have to do anything to
   update links to Internet-Drafts? No, that’s handled by IANA.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Accept-draft-minutes-from-previous-meeting-attached-below>Accept
draft minutes from previous meeting (attached below)

   - Any objections? Please let us know on the mailing list.
   - No objections during the call.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Matroska-issues---Discussion-on-the-call>Matroska
issues - Discussion on the call

   - Mostly validating patches and approving them

<https://notes.ietf.org/#FFV1-v4-issues---Discussion-on-the-call>FFV1 v4
issues - Discussion on the call

   - Jerome has ideas for proof of concepts, but not ready to share that
   yet.
   - Some questions about licensing in IETF - license on FFV1 not present,
   patch has been approved and applied. License is same as Matroska.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#FLAC-issues---Discussion-on-the-call>FLAC issues -
Discussion on the call

   - (We noted that we don’t have the original FLAC authors involved - we
   probably need to do some homework on this, to ensure that we handle
   copyright for FLAC correctly)
   - Remember to mention the FLAC format author(s) - “Josh Coalson”,
   copyrights in 2009 and 2011 on the website
   - Martijn van Beurden would like to help, and has experience on libFLAC.
   For now, we just need to make sure that everything in the documents makes
   sense/is logical. If anything is missing, we just need to create issues (
   https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/Cellar-FLAC/issues) and PRs for that.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#AOB>AOB?

   - Spencer welcomed Martijn van Beurden and thanked him for his offer of
   help on FLAC

NEXT MEETING 2021-10-26 
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Notes-from-previous-meeting-for-approval>Notes
from previous meeting for approval
<https://notes.ietf.org/#CELLAR-%E2%80%93-DRAFT-AGENDA-for-Virtual-Interim-Meeting1>CELLAR
– DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting
DateTimeLocal Times
2021-08-24 21:00 Amsterdam Time Converter
<https://savvytime.com/converter/netherlands-amsterdam-to-utc-ny-new-york-city-ca-san-francisco/jun-22-2021/9pm>
Note Meeting time is anchored to Amsterdam
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Administrivia1>Administrivia
<https://notes.ietf.org/#INFO1>INFO:

https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/chair-notes/tree/master/interim-2021-07
Note that we’re now pointing to the Github repo for chair notes here
<https://notes.ietf.org/#WEB-CONFERENCE1>WEB CONFERENCE:

https://whereby.com/cellar-interim

THERE IS NO TELEPHONE DIALIN (You can try connecting to the whereby.com link
at any time.)
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Shared-COMIMD-for-notetaking-httpscodimdietforgnotes-cellar-virtual1>Shared
COMIMD for notetaking: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-cellar-virtual

   - Note that if you log in to the IETF datatracker, you’ll
   be able to edit these notes, add your name to attendee
   lists, etc.
   - Please ask Spencer if you have questions.

The ComiMD URL is still redirecting, but the newly official location is
https://notes.ietf.org/notes-cellar-virtual?edit - and that’s active now.
Please bookmark the new one when you’re redirected to it.
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Logistics-for-Meeting1>Logistics for Meeting
<https://notes.ietf.org/#2021-virtual-interim-meeting-dates1>2021 virtual
interim meeting dates

   - Please note our 2021 dates listed at
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/cellar/meetings/
   - IETF 112 will also be a fully online meeting (announced 2021-08-04),
   so we will not be meeting face-to-face in Madrid, right? Perhaps in
   early December, close to Amsterdam with a workshop on FFv1 and Matroska
   (also in person) More info at https://mediaarea.net/NoTimeToWait5
   - ACTION: Co-chairs to propose 2022 meeting schedule in September
   meeting, for information and comment.
      - September 28, 2021: 21:00 Paris (1900 UTC)
      - October 26, 2021: 21:00 Paris (1900 UTC)
      - November 23, 2021: 21:00 Paris (2000 UTC)

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Agenda-Items1>Agenda Items
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Note-Well-httpswwwietforgaboutnote-well1>Note
Well: https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Roll-call1>Roll call

Attendees

   - Spencer Dawkins
   - Steve Lhomme
   - Michael Richardson
   - Jerome Martinez
   - Michael Neidermayer
   - Dave Rice

Regrets
*
<https://notes.ietf.org/#News-You-Can-Use1>News You Can Use
<https://notes.ietf.org/#WG-status-update1>WG status update

   - draft-ietf-cellar-codec-06 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-20 was PUBLISHED AS RFC 9043
   - draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-v4-17 was posted 2021-05-25, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-flac-01 was posted 2021-04-27, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-matroska-07 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-tags-06 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Milestone-review1>Milestone review:

   - Matroska maybe at the end of Summer 2021? It’s closer than we thought
   - Is it worth publishing an update to ffv1-v4 that includes the goals
   we’ve discussed previously?
   - Are we ready to submit a working group draft for EBML updates (errata
   plus additions) yet? (
   https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/ebml-specification/tree/corrections-doc
   )
   - FLAC still needs an editor to complete the work. Michael did hear back
   from Florin, and he’s unable to serve as editor, so the working group has a
   decision to make about FLAC.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-the-call1>Discussion on the call

   - Almost all the Matroska issues have PRs waiting for reviews - 7 do
   not. Steve will work on this during the coming week, and then send a
   version for review (soon) (after the PRs are merged)
   - Jerome is now able to focus on FFV1-v4, since we’ve published FFV1.
   ACTION Spencer to send e-mail to DISPATCH when we submit a (small)
   update.
   - We should wait until we have a bit more text, or bigger issues, to
   publish as a draft.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Michael-Richardson-has-asked-to-step-down-as-co-chair-for-SOME-WORKING-GROUP-after-years-of-service-in-this-role>Michael
Richardson has asked to step down as co-chair for SOME WORKING GROUP, after
years of service in this role.

   - This may be CELLAR, but also may not be. He’s asked the ADs to pick
   one.
   - We need to have a conversation about succession planning.
   - Michael and Spencer are both IETF process resources, not technical
   resources - it would be good to have at least one of each.
   - We could be using document shepherds to develop talent, but they need
   to be involved with our work, on calls, etc.
   - Open call on the Cellar mailing list? Michael has reached out to
   individuals in the past - that worked with Matroska.
   - IETF working groups do not name their own leadership - that’s an Area
   Director responsibity - but ADs make their best choices when they have all
   the information we can give them to make choices.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Accept-draft-minutes-from-previous-meeting-attached-below1>Accept
draft minutes from previous meeting (attached below)

   - Any objections? Please let us know on the mailing list.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Follow-up-on-Possible-switch-to-Meetecho-for-our-calls>Follow-up
on Possible switch to Meetecho for our calls
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-previous-calls>Discussion on
previous calls

   - We discussed moving to Meetecho (from whereby.com) at the May meeting,
   and Spencer had an action to check on iOS and Android clients for Meetecho.
   - Spencer verified that Meetecho uses WebRTC, so should work with any
   browser, but does not currently have an iOS or Android client available.
   - Michael’s experience is that Meetecho REALLY needs to run from a
   computer, and not a phone or tablet, just because you need a lot of screen
   real estate to keep track of queues, chats, and other stuff.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-the-call2>Discussion on the call

   - Is using a computer for Cellar interim meetings a dealbreaker for
   anyone?
   - None on the call …
   - ACTION Spencer will request Meetecho for our September meeting.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#FFV1-v4-issues---Discussion-on-the-call1>FFV1 v4
issues - Discussion on the call

   - Michael presented slides for
   https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFV1/blob/master/ffv1-v4-goals.md at the IETF
   111 Dispatch session.
   -
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/slides-111-dispatch-cellar-wg-overview-00

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Matroska-issues---Discussion-on-the-call1>Matroska
issues - Discussion on the call

   - https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/matroska-specification/pull/532
“possible
   values” maybe “defined values”…
   - https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/matroska-specification/pull/530 can
   be merged.
   - https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/matroska-specification/pull/437

<https://notes.ietf.org/#FLAC-issues---Discussion-on-the-call1>FLAC issues
- Discussion on the call

   - Were not discussed on the call

<https://notes.ietf.org/#AOB1>AOB?

   - None noted, except that Spencer and Michael expressed their
   appreciation for the people in the working group!

NEXT MEETING 2021-09-28