Subject: [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene and Capture set

From: Roni Even <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:57:42 +0300

Hi,

In the last Interim meeting presentation on Capture sets
(3-CLUE_media_captures_for_Aug_interim.pptx) I noticed in the comments that
"There could be multiple capture scenes - For example another scene for a
presentation."

In the next slide I saw "There can be multiple capture sets, such as one for
people and one for a presentation". 

Is there going to be a description for the capture scene that will specify
what is the capture scene of?

As for capture sets do you see the presentation and people capture set in
the same scene or are they in a separate scenes, how do you decide which one
to use?

Thanks

Roni Even

---

From: "Brian Baldino (bbaldino)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 06:53:18 -0700

A capture has a 'role' attribute that describes it as presentation or
participant video, so for the current cases we've seen that as
sufficient (instead of putting a similar attribute on the entire capture
set).

A capture set describes a single capture scene, so you couldn't have
multiple capture sets describing the same 'scene', but I'd say how a
device decides to split up captures amongst scenes is somewhat up to
them.  Splitting up presentation and participant captures into two
separate scenes seems to make sense as there's no spatial relationship
between the two sets of captures.  From the receive side, I don't think
a receiver would choose only a single capture scene to view, I think it
would choose captures from each capture set.

-Brian

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Roni Even
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:58 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene and Capture set

Hi,

In the last Interim meeting presentation on Capture sets
(3-CLUE_media_captures_for_Aug_interim.pptx) I noticed in the comments
that "There could be multiple capture scenes - For example another scene
for a presentation."

In the next slide I saw "There can be multiple capture sets, such as one
for people and one for a presentation". 

Is there going to be a description for the capture scene that will
specify what is the capture scene of?

As for capture sets do you see the presentation and people capture set
in the same scene or are they in a separate scenes, how do you decide
which one to use?

Thanks

Roni Even

< oNormal>

---

From: Roni Even <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:40:43 +0300

Hi Brian,

Looking at 3-CLUE_media_captures_for_Aug_interim.pptx I see multiple capture
sets in slide 2. I think that the relation between the capture scene and
capture set is not clear. Looking at section 9 of the framework draft I can
see two capture sets (#1 and #2) and it says that the receiver picks a row
from each capture set. So is this one capture scene or two. The text talk
about sending capture sets but not capture scenes and there is no drawing
that include both.

As for the presentation, a row in a capture set can include multiple media
captures that has implied spatial relation, so if you put the presentation
in a row with three other video captures how is it spatially related.  Can
you put the presentation in any position in the row. 

I also understand that the presentation cannot be in a separate row in a
capture set since the selection is one row from a capture set. This leads me
to think that there can be more than one capture set or more than one scene
if we define the hierarchal relation between the tw.

Regards

Roni 

From: Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:53 PM
To: Roni Even; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene and Capture set

A capture has a 'role' attribute that describes it as presentation or
participant video, so for the current cases we've seen that as sufficient
(instead of putting a similar attribute on the entire capture set).

A capture set describes a single capture scene, so you couldn't have
multiple capture sets describing the same 'scene', but I'd say how a device
decides to split up captures amongst scenes is somewhat up to them.
Splitting up presentation and participant captures into two separate scenes
seems to make sense as there's no spatial relationship between the two sets
of captures.  From the receive side, I don't think a receiver would choose
only a single capture scene to view, I think it would choose captures from
each capture set.

-Brian

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Roni
Even
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:58 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene and Capture set

Hi,

Thanks

Roni Even

< oNormal>

---

From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 16:57:41 -0700

Hi Roni,

The text in the draft hasn't been updated yet, so you might find small
discrepancies with any slide deck which is more recent than the draft.
The more recent document is the one to be considered. We are due to have
a new draft before the interim meeting.

It is meant for each capture set to be an aggregation of the media
captures describing a capture scene. Each capture set describes a scene
which is non-overlapping, not redundant, unique, with respect to other
capture sets.

I'm sorry I couldn't parse your last remark due to some typos.

Regards,

Allyn

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Roni Even
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:41 AM
To: Brian Baldino (bbaldino); [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene and Capture set

Hi Brian,

Looking at 3-CLUE_media_captures_for_Aug_interim.pptx I see multiple
capture sets in slide 2. I think that the relation between the capture
scene and capture set is not clear. Looking at section 9 of the
framework draft I can see two capture sets (#1 and #2) and it says that
the receiver picks a row from each capture set. So is this one capture
scene or two. The text talk about sending capture sets but not capture
scenes and there is no drawing that include both.

As for the presentation, a row in a capture set can include multiple
media captures that has implied spatial relation, so if you put the
presentation in a row with three other video captures how is it
spatially related.  Can you put the presentation in any position in the
row. 

I als o unders n cannot be in a separate row in a capture set since the
selection is one row from a capture set. This leads me to think that
there can be more than one capture set or more than one scene if we
define the hierarchal relation between the tw.

Regards

Roni 

From: Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:53 PM
To: Roni Even; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene a nd Captu /p>

A capture set describes a single capture scene, so you couldn't have
multiple capture sets describing the same 'scene', but I'd say how a
device decides to split up captures amongst scenes is somewhat up to
them.  Splitting up presentation and participant captures into two
separate scenes seems to make sense as there's no spatial relationship
between the two sets of receive side, I don't think a receiver would
choose only a single capture scene to view, I think it would choose
captures from each capture set.

-Brian

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Roni Even
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:58 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene and Cap >

Hi,

Thanks

Roni Even

< oNormal>

---

From: Roni Even <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:03:24 +0300

Hi Allyn,
First the last two sentences from my email, I am not sure why they got like
that, I am using outlook and the email is in HTML format, I am sending it
now as plain text.

As for the presentation, a row in a capture set can include multiple media
captures that has implied spatial relation, so if you put the presentation
in a row with three other video captures from a camera how is it spatially
related.  Can you put the presentation in any position in the row. 
I also understand that the presentation cannot be in a separate row in a
capture set since the selection is one row of each media type from a capture
set. This leads me to think that there can be more than one capture set or
more than one scene if we define the hierarchal relation between the two.

As for media scene and capture set I do not understand what is a scene and
what is the hierarchal order between both , so far my assumption was that
the scene is the local meeting room with all it functionality and there is
one capture scene in an offer.  There can be a capture set for the people
view and a capture set for the presentations. We need to have some hierarchy
in the framework. 
I think that each layer (Scene, Capture sets, media captures,…) should have
attributes that describe the layer.

Regards
Roni 

From: Allyn Romanow (allyn) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 2:58 AM
To: Roni Even; Brian Baldino (bbaldino); [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene and Capture set

Hi Roni,
The text in the draft hasn’t been updated yet, so you might find small
discrepancies with any slide deck which is more recent than the draft. The
more recent document is the one to be considered. We are due to have a new
draft before the interim meeting.

It is meant for each capture set to be an aggregation of the media captures
describing a capture scene. Each capture set describes a scene which is
non-overlapping, not redundant, unique, with respect to other capture sets.

I’m sorry I couldn’t parse your last remark due to some typos.

Regards,
Allyn

Hi Brian,
Looking at 3-CLUE_media_captures_for_Aug_interim.pptx I see multiple capture
sets in slide 2. I think that the relation between the capture scene and
capture set is not clear. Looking at section 9 of the framework draft I can
see two capture sets (#1 and #2) and it says that the receiver picks a row
from each capture set. So is this one capture scene or two. The text talk
about sending capture sets but not capture scenes and there is no drawing
that include both.
As for the presentation, a row in a capture set can include multiple media
captures that has implied spatial relation, so if you put the presentation
in a row with three other video captures how is it spatially related.  Can
you put the presentation in any position in the row. 
I als o unders n cannot be in a separate row in a capture set since the
selection is one row from a capture set. This leads me to think that there
can be more than one capture set or more than one scene if we define the
hierarchal relation between the tw.

Regards
Roni 

A capture has a ‘role’ attribute that describes it as presentation or
participant video, so for the current cases we’ve seen that as sufficient
(instead of putting a similar attribute on the entire capture set).

A capture set describes a single capture scene, so you couldn’t have
multiple capture sets describing the same ‘scene’, but I’d say how a device
decides to split up captures amongst scenes is somewhat up to them. 
Splitting up presentation and participant captures into two separate scenes
seems to make sense as there’s no spatial relationship between the two sets
of receive side, I don’t think a receiver would choose only a single capture
scene to view, I think it would choose captures from each capture set.

-Brian

Hi,

---

From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 14:21:50 -0700

Hi Roni,
Please see below-
Regards,
Allyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roni Even [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 11:03 PM
> To: Allyn Romanow (allyn); Brian Baldino (bbaldino); [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: [clue] Qusetion on Capture Scene and Capture set
> 
> Hi Allyn,
> media
> related.
I don't seen this happening. The scene for the main video and audio is different than the scene for each presentation.
I will agree with you that we need to specify scene more explicitly in the next draft.
So we would have a capture set for each scene. There are likely multiple scenes in the endpoint. For example one scene for which there are main audio and video captures, which are aggregated into Capture Set 1; then one scene for a presentation audio and video captures, which are aggregated into Capture Set 2; then just for fun we can imagine a second presentation which be another capture scene maybe also with audio and video presentation captures in capture set 3. So that endpoint would be sending 3 capture sets describing the streams being generated at that endpoint.

I hope this clarifies some--

Best,
Allyn

  Can you put the presentation in any position in the row.
> I think that each layer (Scene, Capture sets, media captures,...) should
> have
> The
> captures
> capture
> media
> there
> sufficient
> device
> of receive side, I don't think a receiver would choose only a single
> capture
> that
> in

---

From: Stephen Botzko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:19:26 -0400

Presentation display in today's systems is extremely diverse.  Some vendors
place small displays at every seating position, others place large displays
somewhere in the room.  In the latter case, there is no de-facto "standard"
placement.  I don't see this converging to a common design anytime soon.

In the most common use case (showing a computer screen) there is no actual
capture of a scene within the room. One can attempt to substitute the
position of the locally-rendered presentation instead, but this will (in
general) not enable gaze awareness.  That is, it will often not be possible
to ensure that I will perceive someone at another site as looking at the
presentation.

I think in practice it will be ok if we treat the presentation as a scene
which is spatially unrelated to other scenes. If there is a way to describe
how scenes relate to each other, then of course people could apply that
signaling to their sourced presentations.  Though in most practical cases
the receiving systems will basically ignore that information - they will
display the presentation on their presentation monitors, wherever they
happen to be.

Stephen Botzko

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) <[email-masked]>wrote:

> I don't seen this happening. The scene for the main video and audio is
> different than the scene for each presentation.
> So we would have a capture set for each scene. There are likely multiple
> scenes in the endpoint. For example one scene for which there are main audio
> and video captures, which are aggregated into Capture Set 1; then one scene
> for a presentation audio and video captures, which are aggregated into
> Capture Set 2; then just for fun we can imagine a second presentation which
> be another capture scene maybe also with audio and video presentation
> captures in capture set 3. So that endpoint would be sending 3 capture sets
> describing the streams being generated at that endpoint.
>
> _______________________________________________
> clue mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue
>

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:37:36 -0400

> display the presentation on their presentation monitors, wherever they

When there are multiple independent  presentation screens, it is natural to
refer to them spatially (the left screen, the upper screen, etc.)
I think that being able to refer to multiple screens that way is probably
more important than gaze awareness. (In other words, if I say "on the left
screen you will see a graph of...", you may look down, or up, or even right,
and none of that would bother me much as long as you are looking at the
correct screen.)

This is clearly a "it would be nice," and, yet, well it would be nice...

BTW, at least the medical telepresence systems we installed at Barrow had
multiple presentation screens, and I see as a natural evolution for all
systems.

Regards
Marshall

---

From: Stephen Botzko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:03:41 -0400

I think we agree.

There are two multiple-screen cases-

One is where the same content is mirrored on multiple displays in the same
room.  The scenarios I was describing are various instances of that.

The second is where a presentation comprises multiple screens (showing
different stuff on each screen).  I think that is the case you are talking
about.  I agree that it would be good to signal the spatial relationships in
that case.  That was why I suggested treating the presentation as a scene,
and not assume it is a single "capture".

BTW, presentations is one situation where using an angular measure for
height/width doesn't work very well.

Stephen B.

On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Marshall Eubanks <
[email-masked]> wrote:

>> Presentation display in today's systems is extremely diverse.  Some
>> vendors place small displays at every seating position, others place large
>> displays somewhere in the room.  In the latter case, there is no de-facto
>> "standard" placement.  I don't see this converging to a common design
>> anytime soon.
>>

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 12:27:33 -0400

> room.  The scenarios I was describing are various instances of that.
Yes, and there are of course many examples of this.

> about.

Yep

>   I agree that it would be good to signal the spatial relationships in that
> case.  That was why I suggested treating the presentation as a scene, and
> not assume it is a single "capture".
>
Yep.

Marshall

>> On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Stephen Botzko <[email-masked]
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> In the most common use case (showing a computer screen) there is no
>>> actual capture of a scene within the room. One can attempt to substitute the
>> When there are multiple independent  presentation screens, it is natural
>> to refer to them spatially (the left screen, the upper screen, etc.)
>>>> > set. This leads me to think that there can be more than one capture
>>>> set
>>>> > or
>>>> > the scene is the local meeting room with all it functionality and
>>>> there
>>>> > is
>>>> > capture set is not clear. Looking at section 9 of the framework draft
>>>> I
>>>> > can
>>>> > "There could be multiple capture scenes - For example another scene
>>>> for
>>>> > a
>>>> > presentation."

---

From: Christian Groves <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 15:34:08 +1000

Hello Allyn,

Do you have an ETA on the framework draft update? It would be nice to 
get this in advance of the WG interim meeting so people can prepare 
inputs based on the latest information that people can also review 
before the meeting.

Thanks, Christian

On 19/09/2011 9:57 AM, Allyn Romanow (allyn) wrote:
> The more recent document is the one to be considered. We are due to 
> have a new draft before the interim meeting.
>
> captures describing a capture scene. Each capture set describes a 
> scene which is non-overlapping, not redundant, unique, with respect to 
> other capture sets.
>
> *From:[email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] *On Behalf 
> Of *Roni Even
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:41 AM
> *To:* Brian Baldino (bbaldino); [email-masked]
> *Subject:* Re: [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene and Capture set
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> framework draft I can see two capture sets (#1 and #2) and it says 
> that the receiver picks a row from each capture set. So is this one 
> capture scene or two. The text talk about sending capture sets but not 
> capture scenes and there is no drawing that include both.
>
> I als o unders n cannot be in a separate row in a capture set since 
> the selection is one row from a capture set. This leads me to think 
> that there can be more than one capture set or more than one scene if 
> we define the hierarchal relation between the tw.
>
> Regards
>
> Roni
>
> *From:*Brian Baldino (bbaldino) [mailto:[email-masked]]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:53 PM
> *To:* Roni Even; [email-masked]
> *Subject:* RE: [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene a nd Captu /p>
>
> participant video, so for the current cases we’ve seen that as 
> sufficient (instead of putting a similar attribute on the entire 
> capture set).
>
> multiple capture sets describing the same ‘scene’, but I’d say how a 
> separate scenes seems to make sense as there’s no spatial relationship 
> between the two sets of receive side, I don’t think a receiver would 
> *From:[email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] *On Behalf 
> Of *Roni Even
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:58 AM
> *To:* [email-masked]
> *Subject:* [clue] Qusetion on Captyre Scene and Cap >
>
> Hi,
>
> that "There could be multiple capture scenes - For example another 
> scene for a presentation."
>
> In the next slide I saw "There can be multiple capture sets, such as 
> one for people and one for a presentation".
>

---

From: "Allyn Romanow (allyn)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 10:40:36 -0700

Hi Christian,  
Yes, we're planning on making it available by Monday if not sooner.

Best regards,
Allyn

> Christian Groves
> Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 10:34 PM
> To: [email-masked]