From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jul 25 11:40:38 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09554 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g4g0-0002Ax-O4 for edu-discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:40:12 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6PFeChW008357 for edu-discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:40:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g4g0-0002Ai-JN for edu-discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:40:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09547 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g4fz-0001Fa-00 for edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:40:11 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g4fu-0001FQ-00 for edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:40:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g4fp-0002AN-Bw for edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:40:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g4fj-000276-Ef for edu-discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:39:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09526 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:39:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g4fi-0001FJ-00 for edu-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:39:54 -0400 Received: from unknown-1-11.windriver.com ([147.11.1.11] helo=mail.wrs.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g4fX-0001EO-00 for edu-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:39:43 -0400 Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.10]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA00501 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030725113354.03a81428@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: edu-discuss@ietf.org From: Margaret Wasserman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [edu-discuss] IGNORE: Test Sender: edu-discuss-admin@www1.ietf.org Errors-To: edu-discuss-admin@www1.ietf.org X-BeenThere: edu-discuss@www1.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: IETF Education Discussion List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:34:10 -0400 Test. _______________________________________________ edu-discuss mailing list edu-discuss@www1.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-discuss From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 29 13:55:28 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02531 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYgg-0005LZ-V1 for edu-discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:03 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6THt273020549 for edu-discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYgg-0005LM-Ro for edu-discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02466 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYge-0000SQ-00 for edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:00 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYgd-0000SM-00 for edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:54:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYgf-0005LD-GI; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYgU-0005KU-RQ for edu-discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:54:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02455; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYgS-0000S8-00; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:54:48 -0400 Received: from unknown-1-11.windriver.com ([147.11.1.11] helo=mail.wrs.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYgR-0000Ro-00; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:54:48 -0400 Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.24]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA08117; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030729123821.03442ff8@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: wgchairs-training@ops.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org From: Margaret Wasserman Cc: edu-discuss@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [edu-discuss] edu-discuss mailing list Sender: edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: edu-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: IETF Education Discussion List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:56:30 -0400 Hi All, We have established a mailing list for the discussion of the IETF's internal education efforts, which were discussed at the Education (edu) BOF in Vienna. A summary of the BOF appears below, and full minutes will be sent to the edu-discuss mailing list. People who are interested in tracking or participating in our internal education efforts should subscribe to the edu-discuss mailing list. Subscription information can be found at: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-discuss Over the next several weeks, Harald Alvestrand and I will be working to establish the core education team, and to officially charter this activity. Margaret Education (edu) BOF Summary =========================== The session was attended by approximately 35 people, and there was a very high level of engagement and participation. The BOF focused on internal educational activities within the IETF -- primarily role and process education. Early discussions focused on our current educational activities and ideas/suggestions for improving them. There was a strong sense that these activities are important, and that we should continue and expand them as possible. Priorities for improvement included editor training, programs to help non-North Americans become acclimated to the IETF, and mentoring programs for new attendees. The second half of the meeting focused on how to organize and manage our internal educational efforts moving forward. Margaret Wasserman presented a proposal for an "education team" to run the education efforts, something between a WG and a directorate. In particular: Form an education team to run this effort - Effort overseen by the General AD - General AD appoints team leader(s) - Leader(s) and AD choose the team from volunteers, refresh and expand the team as needed - Team membership publicly known Community visibility and feedback - IETF web page for educational activities - Public discussion mailing list - Education team archives publicly available - Occasional (~yearly?) open meetings at IETF During the meeting, we agreed that the team should have a written charter, and that the charter should be included on the web site. There was a strong consensus of those present that we should form an education team to run these efforts, as described above. The meeting ended with emphasis from the General AD that continuing our existing educational activities should be the top priority of the education team. _______________________________________________ edu-discuss mailing list edu-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-discuss From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 29 13:56:30 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02601 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYhh-0005OH-HN for edu-discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:56:05 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6THu5Gf020715 for edu-discuss-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:56:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYhg-0005Nx-0H for edu-discuss-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:56:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02568 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYhd-0000TK-00 for edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:56:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYhc-0000TC-00 for edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:56:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYhd-0005Ms-Rx; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:56:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYgk-0005Le-8X for edu-discuss@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02470 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYgi-0000SX-00 for edu-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:04 -0400 Received: from unknown-1-11.windriver.com ([147.11.1.11] helo=mail.wrs.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYgh-0000Rz-00 for edu-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:55:03 -0400 Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.24]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA08170 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030729125659.0421fbe8@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: edu-discuss@ietf.org From: Margaret Wasserman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_802118365==_" Subject: [edu-discuss] Fwd: Draft Education BOF Minutes Sender: edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: edu-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: IETF Education Discussion List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:59:16 -0400 --=====================_802118365==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All, I have attached the minutes from the EDU BOF in Vienna. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. Margaret --=====================_802118365==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="IETF57-Edu-BOF-Minutes.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Education BOF (edu) Minutes IETF 57 -- Vienna, Austria Wednesday, July 16 at 1300-1500 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CHAIR: Margaret Wasserman =20 AGENDA: - Intro and Agenda Bashing (5 min) - Review Existing Programs and Resources (10 min) - Newcomer/Participant Training - WG Chair Training - Other Educational Resources - Plans/Direction for Participant Education (15 min) - Plans/Direction for Editor Education (15 min) - Plans/Direction for WG Chair Education (15 min) - Options for Training Organization/Management (10 min) - Open Discussion (30 min) - Next Steps and Action Items (20 min) FULL BOF DESCRIPTION: This BOF will discuss internal training and development programs and educational resources for IETF participants and leaders. The IETF has been educating IETF participants and leaders for many years, via formal training classes, educational web sites, published materials and formal and informal mentoring programs. Our educational efforts have included training=20 sessions for newcomers, introductory training sessions for new=20 WG chairs, and educational web resources for WG chairs, document=20 editors and other participants. There have also been educational=20 sessions for IETF participants held at some IETF plenary meetings. Over the past year, there has been an increasing awareness of the need for better educational programs and resources for IETF WG chairs, document editors and other participants. A grass-roots effort was initiated to expand the WG Chairs training program to include ongoing education for continuing WG chairs. The Newcomers training, formerly provided by the IETF Secretariat, has been folded in to the WG Chairs training effort. Also, we've discussed the development of training programs or resources for document editors and other IETF participants. As this effort expands beyond the area of WG chairs training, it is increasingly important to have the IETF community involved in this effort -- both to give the community more visibility into these activities, and to receive input and assistance from the wider community in developing our educational programs and resources. In this BOF, we'll discuss the IETF's existing educational programs and resources, and we'll discuss how those programs could be enhanced or expanded in the future. We will also discuss how best to organize and managed our educational programs on an ongoing basis, including a discussion of whether we should form a Working Group to further this effort. At the San Francisco IETF in March 2003, a voluntary session was held for IESG members and WG chairs to discuss training for ongoing WG chairs. The notes from that session can be found at: http://www.psg.com/~mrw/WGChairs_Training_Notes_Mar03.txt BOF attendees should also familiarize themselves with our existing training materials and on-line educational resources. For Newcomers: http://www.ietf.org/newcomer/frame.htm http://www.ietf.org/overview.html For WG Chairs: http://psg.com/~mrw/WGChairs_Training_Mar03.ppt http://www.ietf.org/IESG/wgchairs.html Examples of Participant Training: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/01dec/slides/plenary-3/index.html http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/02mar/slides/plenary-3/index.html MAILING LIST: List: wgchairs-training@ops.ietf.org Subscribe: majordomo@ops.ietf.org Body: "subscribe wgchairs-training" (no quotes) Archive: http://ops.ietf.org/lists/wgchairs-training/ MINUTES: The session was attended by approximately 35 people, and there was a very high level of engagement and participation. The BOF focused on internal educational activities within the IETF -- primarily role and process education. Early discussions focused on our current educational activities and ideas/suggestions for improving them. There was a strong sense that these activities are important, and that we should continue and expand them as possible. Priorities for improvement included editor training, programs to help non-North Americans become acclimated to the IETF, and mentoring programs for new attendees. The second half of the meeting focused on how to organize and manage our internal educational efforts moving forward.=20 Margaret Wasserman presented a proposal for an "education team" to run the education efforts, something between a WG and a directorate. In particular: Form an education team to run this effort - Effort overseen by the General AD - General AD appoints team leader(s) - Leader(s) and AD choose the team from volunteers,=20 refresh and expand the team as needed - Team membership publicly known Community visibility and feedback - IETF web page for educational activities - Public discussion mailing list - Education team archives publicly available - Occasional (~yearly?) open meetings at IETF During the meeting, we agreed that the team should have a written charter, and that the charter should be included on the web site. There was a strong consensus of those present that we should form=20 an education team to run these efforts, as described above. The meeting ended with emphasis from the General AD that continuing=20 our existing educational activities should be the top priority of=20 the education team. DETAILED DISCUSSION NOTES: See slides for each section. Intro and Agenda Bashing -- Margaret Wasserman: Many kinds of education with many targets of education. Not looking at outward-facing education or tutorials. Not looking at=20 WG-specific training. Review Existing Programs and Resources -- Margaret Wasserman: Some training in place, but it=92s a weak list, considering what we=92re=20 capable of and what we need. The work has been accomplished by an informal group with minimal community visibility, so far. Plans/Direction for Participant Education -- Margaret Wasserman: James: not sure about brown-bag =96 so many attendees. Getting senior=20 people involved with newcomers (was meeting with group from Korea=20 with IEEE experience and LOTS of questions). Ed Luscovicius: What is meant by a mentor? Margaret: could assign=20 mentors at the front of the room, could have different-colored dots...=20 what level of commitment could we expect? More like buddies than=20 mentors? Kurt Salingo: don=92t know who=92s approachable! Smiley face on badges?=20 Use mentoring to train chairs, document editors ... Elwyn Davies: lists of people who can speak the same language as a=20 new participant? Newsletters with area/WG summaries? Pekka: What resources for non-North American participants? Margaret:=20 No idea, I=92m a North American, but James and Harald have opinions=20 here... Harald: need training for scribes! ISOC produces Internet Monthly=20 Report =96 we should look at it. Charlie Kaufman: create =93official hallway=94 for mini-BoFs, etc? James Seng: Mentoring system would be really good =96 I had one,=20 and everybody needs one. Participants join a particular WG =96 WG=20 chairs are the ones that need help here. Security Tutorial -- Radia Perlman: Why is there only a tutorial on Security? Margaret: because we all have to write security considerations sections. Spencer Dawkins: very helpful in my case. James Kempf: lot of lore about security in the IETF that=92s not=20 always reflected in a tutorial. Necessary but not sufficient. Spencer: didn=92t realize Tao of IETF had been updated, didn=92t realize=20 Radia had updated Security tutorial =96 can we announce this at=20 Plenaries? Harald: how to tell all the IETF something? Margaret: can=92t!=20 Avri: announce list that=92s not ID announcements, etc? Kurt: good that we had someone new doing this tutorial =96 it=20 should be rotated. Not sure where tutorial slides are actually available? On the=20 MIT site? Plans/Direction for Editor Education =96 Avri Doria: Problems: formatting, content, =93Roles, Responsibilities, and Rights=20 of Editors=94 Doing something NITless is non-trivial, and collection of NITs is=20 ever-changing. Probably presentations somewhere on how to do IANA considerations,=20 but should be part of the editor training. Ed Luscovicius: =93IANA considerations=94 is perfect opportunity for a=20 mentor. James Kempf: offer a =93tips on technical writing=94 course? For ESL=20 would turn into Basic English? On Sunday afternoon? Margaret: would=20 like to avoid doing training that others do better, and no budget?=20 James: propose request for budget to ISOC? Pekka: Price of training? People who haven=92t reviewed good technical=20 documents and are trying to write one? Rodney Hess: Write these topics up as RFCs? Give RFCs as examples?=20 I ended up finding these via trial-by-error. Also: concerns about=20 listing editors being controversial. John Klensin: general case =96 rules about who=92s listed as editor are=20 written down. It=92s impossible to survive ID NITS in the general=20 case. The NITS change during the process without warning and aren=92t=20 always consistent with what ADs enforce. XML2RFC isn=92t entirely=20 consistent with what the RFC Editor wants. Harald: Budget isn=92t the problem. Asking for people=92s time is.=20 Providing pointers is good. Crawl before we walk. (Ericsson): having Sunday or even Saturday tutorials for newcomers=20 is important because we have new resources that we can=92t plug into=20 the process. Plans/Direction for WG Chair Education -- Margaret Wasserman Ed: who can attend? Margaret: WG chairs or BoF chairs are invited,=20 ADs get to go. Adding =93timely topics=94 (this time, on IPR and mailing list management) Derek Atkins started a FAQ =96 send text! Identify WG chairs who are willing to mentor. Spencer: WG topical training done this time was very good and very=20 timely. James: when people are unhappy, it=92s in a WG, and when people are=20 so upset they leave, they say it=92s an IETF problem, not a WG problem.=20 Lots of WGs struggle and could use help. John Border: WG chair selection? Margaret: no concept of training=20 WG chairs in advance or requiring training. This is ANOTHER=20 bootstrapping problem. Kurt: Need to get people to repeat =93New WG chair=94 and =93Newcomers=94=20 training =96 change the name! WG chairs need help learning to choose=20 editors and avoiding technical contention turning into process=20 contention. Need to avoid WG chair railroading. Radia: =93Newcomers=94 name keeps oldcomers out! Difference between=20 document editor and idea-meister. Giving credit outside IETF? Marcin: What is Security Tutorial actually about? Thought it was=20 physical building security =96 not at all about technical security!=20 Margaret?: Should have short descriptions in agenda to explain=20 what=92s going on, just like WG agendas. Options for Training Organization/Management -- Margaret Wasserman Need two month=92s notice deciding what tutorials and training we=20 will offer before an IETF, so we can prepare. Open Discussion: Education effort isn=92t like an IETF WG for many reasons. We need community visibility, community feedback, community=20 support/mandate. A lot like a directorate, but more visibility (mailing lists,=20 archives, open meetings from time to time). Ed: I like the proposal. We need to include self-education as=20 well =96 =93best five RFCs this year=94 list? Publish text of training as Informational RFCs? Harald: hand out prizes for best-written RFC from previous year?=20 Directorates are defined in 2026, this isn=92t a directorate because=20 I want this group to do work, not advise me. If I give you a job,=20 it=92s your responsibility to finish it and my job to evaluate it. =93Education Team=94? =93Task Force?=94 Radia: not just a competition to write best RFCs =96 it=92s a guide.=20 Provide a made-up example of a bad example? IESG-nominated bad=20 ones written by young-and-foolish IESG members who are now older=20 and wiser? Kurt: No matter what we are called, we need a charter. It=92s a lot=20 like a WG home page. Spencer: right direction, more work to do, but right direction. Marcin: any formal feedback mechanism? Margaret: not really anyone=20 to give feedback TO, so, no, not yet. And this keeps us from doing=20 continuous improvement. Ed: one objective is to solicit feedback and opportunities to improve. Next Steps and Action Items: Yes, we have rough agreement on current direction, with one concern about=20 adding structure. Top priorities: education outreach for non-North Americans? Document=20 editors?=20 Harald: don=92t let this distract us from what we=92re already doing. April Marine: a lot of this has been thought of before and tried=20 before. Define what you=92re doing first. Make sure participants=20 understand what they=92ve bought into. This is a volunteer effort=20 that=92s not what IETF does. Need to sustain it. A lot of what User=20 Services ran up against was in this area, but within the WG model=20 (=93WEIRD WG=94). Attempts failed because this is odd for IETF and a big=20 volunteer effort. Break down goals and tasks clearly. Charlie Kaufman: suggesting a small thing =96 WGs and BoFs serve=20 educational purpose today, but hard for newbies to find them. Pop-up=20 ads on web page? No, but maybe WG agendas that say they are/are not=20 newbie-friendly? Elwyn: WG =93getting started in this WG=94 page, tied to WG page? Spencer: have WG chair participants in this effort do such a thing=20 for THEIR working groups, with guidance from other participants, and=20 then it=92s a real example? John Border: need help with getting started. John Norris: make a list of 10-20 items as to-do list, may not get=20 to number 20, don=92t even have to rank them. Kurt: don=92t focus on a few big things. Some small things would=20 have big impact. Mark Stanton: focus is on what happens at IETF meetings, and most=20 of our work happens the other 49 weeks out of the year... what to=20 tell people who are trying to engage on a mailing list? James: this is not a WG, it=92s a team that helps people get=20 familiarized. We want to do things, not document our dreams.=20 =93Just do it.=94 Harald: this is an ongoing effort. Make sure we preserve the=20 foundation we have and build on it =96 the most important thing. Ole Jacobson: have just published an Internet Protocol Journal=20 article on V6OPS, and want to do more. How can I help? I have=20 30,000 paper readers, plus online... --=====================_802118365==_-- _______________________________________________ edu-discuss mailing list edu-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-discuss