Subject: [edu-team] FW: [NGO] Tutorial on RELAX NG and/or XSD at Vancouver IETF?

From: "Wijnen, Bert \(Bert\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:11:17 +0200

Resend as requested by Margaret

Bert Wijnen 
-----Original Message-----
From: Wijnen, Bert (Bert) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:45 PM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [NGO] Tutorial on RELAX NG and/or XSD at Vancouver IETF?

Forwarding to EDU team, so they are aware of it 

NGO/Netconf folk, we need to show our interest FAST if we want this to happen. If the EDU-team does not have a slot, we could try for a separate smaller session outside the normal program.

It would be good to also have an XSD tutorial though, so we can much better compare the two.

Bert Wijnen
-----Original Message-----
From: Ladislav Lhotka [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:35 PM
To: Wijnen, Bert (Bert)
Cc: Andy Bierman; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [NGO] NETCONF Data Modeling BoF (NDM) proposal

Wijnen, Bert (Bert) píše v Pá 14. 09. 2007 v 13:21 +0200:
> > From: Ladislav Lhotka [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:12 AM
> > To: Andy Bierman
> > Cc: [email-masked]
> > Subject: Re: [NGO] NETCONF Data Modeling BoF (NDM) proposal
> > 
> > Try it and you will see that RELAX NG is way easier and more 
> > predictable. James Clark claims the RNG Tutorial can get you going 
> > in 30 minutes, which is probably an exaggeration, but perhaps two 
> > hours could be enough?
> > 
> 
> Candidate tutorial for Vancouver?

OK, if there is interest, I am volunteering to prepare it.

Lada

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CESNET
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C

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---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:18:52 -0400

Hi Bert,

I am not familiar with Lada.  Would he be a good presenter for an EDU  
Tutorial?  From my perspective we'd be looking for the following traits:

- Ability to give clear, well-organized presentations
- Ability to produce professional materials by deadlines
- Wilingness to update materials based on EDU Team and expert review
- Ability to put aside personal agendas and present a non-political  
educational session

Do you think Lada would qualify?

We still have one slot that we haven't booked, but we were  
considering either an updated Security tutorial or an updated  
Management tutorial for that slot.  Do you think that this would be  
more important?  Is this of interest to a wide range of IETF  
attendees, or only a small group?

What do other folks on the EDU Team think about this idea?

Thanks,
Margaret

On Sep 14, 2007, at 1:11 PM, Wijnen, Bert (Bert) wrote:

> NGO/Netconf folk, we need to show our interest FAST if we want this  
> to happen. If the EDU-team does not have a slot, we could try for a  
> separate smaller session outside the normal program.
>

---

From: Radia Perlman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:20:31 -0700

I'd like to see an abstract about what the content would be. Preferably 
an abstract that
does not require one to go look at RFCs or WG charters to figure out 
what the content would be.

Radia

Margaret Wasserman wrote:
> We still have one slot that we haven't booked, but we were considering 
> either an updated Security tutorial or an updated Management tutorial 
> for that slot.  Do you think that this would be more important?  Is 
> this of interest to a wide range of IETF attendees, or only a small 
> group?
>

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 08:08:33 +1200

There's also the usual question whether this would be of wider
relevance than just one or two WGs. I agree that Relax NG
is a valuable skill in itself.

Regards
    Brian Carpenter
    University of Auckland

---

From: "Wijnen, Bert \(Bert\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 00:34:46 +0200

EDU-team...

I cannot answer the questions on Lada, I do not know him/her 
(see I do not even know the persons gender).
I do see this person thoughtfully contribute to the NGO (Netconf Goes On)
mailing list on the topic of a Data Modeling Lnaguage to use.
It seems he/she is a RELAX NG proponent, but he/she also seems willing to
listen to others and do work. 

We (in NETCONF world) are faced with choosing a Data Modeling Language to use.
Current discussion is XSD or RELAX NG (or develop our own, sort of a new SMI
for XML based data modeling, but this would take a long time and we need
something to use right now). 

Most of use in the NETCONF world are not knwoledgeable about either XSD or
RELAX NG, and so it is tough to make a well-reasoned choice.

So that is why a tutorial on XSD and/or RELAX NG would be VERY relevant and
useful in the short term. Note that I myself need tutorials on both XSD and 
Relax NG. So I am not an expert that can give much advise here.

I noticed that Lada was offering to prepare a tutorial, and so I immediately
wanted to alert you about it.

I would think that several other efforts in IETF that use XML would 
benefit from this equally well. 

Maybe Dan knows Lada?

Hope this helps,
Bert Wijnen  

> From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 7:19 PM
> To: Wijnen, Bert (Bert)
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [edu-team] FW: [NGO] Tutorial on RELAX NG and/or 
> XSD at Vancouver IETF?
> 
> 
> Hi Bert,
> 
> I am not familiar with Lada.  Would he be a good presenter 
> for an EDU Tutorial?  From my perspective we'd be looking for 
> the following traits:
> 
> - Ability to put aside personal agendas and present a 
> non-political educational session
> 
> Management tutorial for that slot.  Do you think that this 
> would be more important?  Is this of interest to a wide range 
> of IETF attendees, or only a small group?
> 
> > NGO/Netconf folk, we need to show our interest FAST if we 
> want this to 
> > happen. If the EDU-team does not have a slot, we could try for a 
> > It would be good to also have an XSD tutorial though, so we 
> can much 
> > better compare the two.
> >
> > Bert Wijnen

---

From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:38:02 +0200

No, I do not know Lada. I can however confirm what Bert said. An XSD or XSD and RELAX NG tutorial would be extremely useful for the OPS community. I do not know what Margaret meant by 'an updated Management tutorial' but these are the subjects that the management community would benefit most at this point in time. 

Thanks and Regards,

Dan

> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:35 AM
> To: Margaret Wasserman
> Cc: [email-masked]; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> Subject: RE: [edu-team] FW: [NGO] Tutorial on RELAX NG and/or 
> XSD at Vancouver IETF?
> 
> EDU-team...
> 
> I do see this person thoughtfully contribute to the NGO 
> (Netconf Goes On) mailing list on the topic of a Data 
> Modeling Lnaguage to use.
> It seems he/she is a RELAX NG proponent, but he/she also 
> seems willing to listen to others and do work. 
> 
> Current discussion is XSD or RELAX NG (or develop our own, 
> sort of a new SMI for XML based data modeling, but this would 
> take a long time and we need something to use right now). 
> 
> Most of use in the NETCONF world are not knwoledgeable about 
> either XSD or RELAX NG, and so it is tough to make a 
> well-reasoned choice.
> 
> So that is why a tutorial on XSD and/or RELAX NG would be 
> VERY relevant and useful in the short term. Note that I 
> myself need tutorials on both XSD and Relax NG. So I am not 
> an expert that can give much advise here.
> 
> I noticed that Lada was offering to prepare a tutorial, and 
> so I immediately wanted to alert you about it.
> 
> I would think that several other efforts in IETF that use XML 
> would benefit from this equally well. 
> 
> Maybe Dan knows Lada?
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Bert Wijnen  
> 
> > Subject: Re: [edu-team] FW: [NGO] Tutorial on RELAX NG 
> and/or XSD at 
> > Vancouver IETF?
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Bert,
> > 
> for an EDU 
> considering

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:06:25 -0400

Hi Dan and Bert,

I've cc:ed Lada, as Lada volunteered to do a Relax NG/XSD tutorial in  
a forwarded e-mail in this thread.  Lada, I don't think we have met,  
but I run the IETF EDU Team (http://edu.ietf.org), the group  
responsible for scheduling tutorials at IETF meetings.

We do have one slot left at IETF 70 (in Vancouver in December), and  
we're planning to make a decision about what to present in that slot  
at an EDU Team meeting in early October.  We already have a couple of  
choice about what to present, but we're certainly interested in  
offering timely new technical tutorials when possible.

In order to consider this tutorial, however, we would need to get the  
following information (probably from Lada):

(1) A brief summary of Lada's background and qualifications in Relax  
NG/XSD, as well as some information about Lada's IETF experience and  
contributions.

(2) E-mail confirmation from Lada indicating availability and  
willingness to teach a 2-hour tutorial on this subject in person on  
Sunday afternoon at IETF 70 in Vancouver, including a commitment to  
produce tutorial slides by November 12th and to incorporate feedback  
from the EDU Team and other expert reviewers before the IETF meeting.

(3) A detailed outline for the proposed tutorial including  
references, etc.

(4) Availability to attend a phone call with the EDU Team in early  
October to discuss this tutorial, if necessary.

If we receive this information within the next week (preferably by  
Wednesday, October 4th) we can consider this tutorial for Vancouver.   
Otherwise, we might still be able to consider this tutorial, but we  
will not have a slot available until IETF 71 in Philadelphia.

Thanks,
Margaret

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:23:16 -0400

Hi Dan,

In a separate response that doesn't include Lada, but does include  
Dave Harrington and Ron Bonica.

On Sep 16, 2007, at 9:38 AM, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:

> No, I do not know Lada. I can however confirm what Bert said. An  
> XSD or XSD and RELAX NG tutorial would be extremely useful for the  
> OPS community. I do not know what Margaret meant by 'an updated  
> Management tutorial' but these are the subjects that the management  
> community would benefit most at this point in time.

The "updated Management tutorial" we've discussed would not be  
intended to educate the management community, per se.  It would be  
intended to educate IETF attendees about management, much like the  
Security tutorial that teaches people about security technologies and  
how to think about security when writing their specs.

There have been various management tutorials given in the past, but  
most of them have focused on how to write SNMP MIBs.  We had  
discussed the possibility that we might want to give a broader  
management tutorial that would cover both IETF management  
technologies and the concepts of manageability that groups should  
consider when writing their documents.  This could potentially be  
given at IETF 70, IETF 71 or later.

I had thought that this might include something along the lines of  
Dave Harrington's document: draft-harrington-operations-and- 
management-01.txt.  However, in discussion with the EDU Team, there  
was some concern that Dave's document may not yet represent an IETF  
consensus.  So, we thought that it might be better to have Dave  
present this document to the WG chairs first (assuming he is  
willing), both as a means to get the WG chairs thinking about these  
issues, and as a way to get some feedback on this document from some  
heavily invested members of the IETF community outside of the OPS area.

Presenting Dave's document to the WG chairs is not necessarily  
mutually exclusive with the idea of doing a management tutorial on  
Sunday.  But, if we want to do either, we need to reach some  
decisions on this in the next ~2 weeks.

What do you guys think?

Margaret

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:46:33 -0400

This may not have been clear in my previous note...

Regardless of what we decide to do (or not to do) about a Management  
tutorial for Sunday afternoon at IETF 70 or a later IETF, the EDU  
Team would be interested in having Dave H. present the information in  
his guidelines document to the WG Chairs (unless there are any strong  
objections, of course).  Whether or not we later decide to formerly  
adopt a requirement for Management Considerations sections in  
documents, the thought process that people should go through when  
designing protocols should be very valuable to the WG chairs and  
their WGs.

Dave, would you be wiling to present the concepts from your draft at  
the WG Chairs lunch on Wednesday from 11:30-1:00 in Vancouver?   
Ideally, we'd have about a 40 minute presentation followed by ~20  
minutes of Q&A and feedback to you about the document, because we  
usually get about 60-70 minutes of useful time in the WG chairs  
lunch.  Does that sound reasonable?

Margaret

On Sep 27, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Margaret Wasserman wrote:

>> Management tutorial' but these are the subjects that the  
>> management community would benefit most at this point in time.
>
> Security tutorial that teaches people about security technologies  
> and how to think about security when writing their specs.
>
> issues, and as a way to get some feedback on this document from  
> some heavily invested members of the IETF community outside of the  
> OPS area.
>