Subject: [edu-team] Rant about "EDU" content on the IETF web site

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 13:29:54 +0100

(Copying Paul because this intersects somewhat with the Tao.)

I've just sent in a minor update to http://www.ietf.org/about/process-docs.html
and several corrections to EDU-related URLs on the IETF web site, and
the result is that I'm feeling a bit frustrated.

I don't think the IETF web site is at all good from the EDU point of view.
Some examples:

The home page is largely useless for newcomers. So let's hope they notice the
"start here" and don't try the "About the IETF" link, because...

The "About" page doesn't point to either the newcomers page or the standards
process page. (I have sent in a ticket about that). Actually, I don't know where
the standards process page is linked from these days,

It also has a pointer to RFC 4677 - Paul may want to get that removed.

Anyway - our charter includes "educational materials" so I think we should
consider how to ensure that *all* the educational information on the web site
is adequate, not just the slides of past tutorials. At the least, could
everybody look over the site and send actionable corrections to [email-masked]?

Look at it from the viewpoint of someone who's attended zero or one IETF
meetings. What's confusing and what's missing?

    Brian

P.S. On a more domestic note, can the EDU chairs update the wiki?
http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/edu/wiki/EduCharter looks very out of date.

Also - some of the links at http://www.ietf.org/edu/technical-tutorials.html
are to PPTX files; we *really* should provide PDF.

Regards
   Brian

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From: Radia Perlman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 16:29:22 -0700

Why should it be pdf instead of ppt?  I thought people prefered ppt
because they might want to steal/use/edit some of the slides.

Is it because not everyone has Office but they would have the ability
to display pdf?

Or is it that it shouldn't be pptx because that isn't readable by
older versions of Office?

Radia

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:29 AM, Brian E Carpenter
<[email-masked]> wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> edu-team mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-team

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 08:57:49 +0100

> Is it because not everyone has Office but they would have the ability

Yes, especially since PowerPoint is not included in the low-end (Home)
version of Office. But basically, we shouldn't oblige people to use
paid software.

> older versions of Office?

To some extent, although that is mitigated by the latest versions
of Open Office and LibreOffice, which usually display PPTX correctly.

Of course, I have no objection to PPT(X) or ODP format being available
in addition.

If we were really picky, we'd use the PDF/A archival format which is
a standard, since basic PDF is proprietary too, but at least the reader
is free.

    Brian

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From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 10:50:01 +0200

Hi,

If we all agree, I can ask the secretariat to replace the slides with 
pdfs. So far, I basically just passed on what I receive form the authors.

Regarding the wiki, I suggest we only use that as an archive of older 
presentations. The most current version of our charter, team members 
etc. is now on www.ietf.org/edu. So, maybe it would be the best if I 
remove that type of information from the wiki and include a link to the 
new edu team pages. Any objections?

Mirjam

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From: Russ Housley <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 04:58:18 -0400

We want to post PDF on the web site.  They can be created with any tool, but please put them on the web site as PDF.

Russ

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From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 10:59:40 +0200

Hi Russ,

OK, I'll work with the secretariat to get that done.

Mirjam

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From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 11:06:21 +0200

Hi Brian,

I agree, the IETF home page is a bit hard to digest for newcomers. Maybe 
in addition to the pointer to the Tao, we should also include a link to 
the Newcomers presentation more prominently (especially now we have a 
video that goes with it). I can work with the secretariat to get that done.

And yes, I think you are right: we should feel responsible for all 
educational material on the IETF web site. This sounds more like an 
ongoing project. Would be great if we could all go through the page and 
see if we see anything that can be improved. Or maybe some of us could 
sit together at the next IETF and go through the site together?

Regards,
Mirjam

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From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 06:58:39 -0400

Just FYI --

PDF is a proprietary Adobe format that has a free viewer for most systems that is well-integrated with most web browsers.

PowerPoint is a proprietary Microsoft format that has a free viewer available for Windows only, not integrated with Web Browsers.  Open source options are available to view these files for most systems.

So, PDF is a bit more convenient for many people to use, but I don't see a big moral difference...

Margaret

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From: Thomas Narten <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 07:05:24 -0400

>  see a big moral difference...

Then you probably don't make heavy use of a non-Windows/Apple
platform. :-)

As a long-time Linux user, I can say that PDF is a much more portable
format, There are lots of tools (in addition to the adobe-provided
ones) that display PDF. For ppt, the range of available tools are far,
far fewer, and many of them do not display ppt/pptx/doc
satisfactorily. They work OK for simple documents, but often mangle
others. Not to mention minor annoyances, like dumping core on some
documents...

If I could actually buy a working version of office for Linux, I would
have done so long ago.

Thomas

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From: Russ Housley <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 07:19:46 -0400

Margaret:

PDF is now an ISO standard.

Russ

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 14:04:47 +0100

On 05/09/2012 09:50, Mirjam Kuehne wrote:
...
> new edu team pages. Any objections?

None, it's a good idea to avoid duplication, which always leads to inconsistency
later on.

On 05/09/2012 10:06, Mirjam Kuehne wrote:

> I agree, the IETF home page is a bit hard to digest for newcomers. Maybe in addition to the pointer to the Tao, we should also include a link to the Newcomers presentation more prominently (especially now we have a video that goes with it). I can work with the secretariat to get that done.

Just to be clear, I was referring to the generic newcomer's introduction
at http://www.ietf.org/newcomers.html. I can have a direct link to
the tutorial added there of course, if you think it's useful.
At the moment you would have to link via the EDU site.

> And yes, I think you are right: we should feel responsible for all educational material on the IETF web site. This sounds more like an ongoing project. Would be great if we could all go through the page and see if we see anything that can be improved. Or maybe some of us could sit together at the next IETF and go through the site together? 

Yes, in front of a screen together is the best way to do this.

Hopefully I will be in Atlanta, although currently I have a reservation
on Lufthansa and they seem to be in assisted suicide mode at the
moment.

    Brian