Subject: Re: [edu-team] Sunday tutorials, newcomers, and remote participants

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 06:52:51 +1300

Jari, and EDU,

This whole discussion tells me that the EDU team needs to become
more pro-active and effective. Frankly I think we've got into a bit
of a rut.

Jari:

1. The Doodle poll http://doodle.com/f7qb2r23b5p265gw gives us
Wed, Thu or Fri breakfast as options for a meeting. Can you make
any of those? If not, since neither Mirjam nor Radia is here, I
will pick one.

2. Did you see the draft "help wanted" ad for new EDU members?
(attached in case not)? Could you put it out for us?

    Brian

On 10/11/2014 04:39, Jari Arkko wrote:
> Thank you all for your comments and suggestions - agree with all.
> 
> This also inspired me to write a blog article about our introductory materials. But we’ll still have to work on making the materials more visible on the web site. Another item for the web site renewal project...
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/blog/2014/11/exploring-the-ietf/
> 
> Jari
>

---

From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 11:33:29 +0100

Hi,

It also turns out that none of the tutorial slides were online before
the meeting (they usually are). In fact I didn't get any slides except
for Scott's. And I didn't have time to push the presenters this time,
because I was busy at the RIPE Meeting. As discussed before, it would be
helpful if each presenter would have a contact person in the Edu Team
who makes sure the slides are sent, provides feedback etc.

Did anyone attend the tutorials? How did it go? That reminds me: It
would be great if we can give some feedback to the presenters, maybe
either by handing out feedback forms to the attendees (in paper or
online), or by one of us. Maybe something to discuss at our next (phone)
meeting.

Regards,
Mirjam

On 9/11/14 18:52, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> _______________________________________________
>> edu-team mailing list
>> [email-masked]
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-team

---

From: Radia Perlman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 05:14:36 -0800

I think there is opportunity for feedback on the entire IETF meeting that
all registered participants have the opportunity to fill out (at least
there has been at previous IETFs), and there are questions where one can
say something about the tutorials you attended.  But very few IETF
attendees bother filling those out, or even looking at it to notice there
is opportunity for tutorial feedback.  I think feedback aimed specifically
at those that attended tutorials, where they know that constructive
feedback about what they wish would be covered that wasn't, whether the
speaker was interesting, etc., might get more useful feedback.

Radia

On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 2:33 AM, Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]> wrote:

> >> This also inspired me to write a blog article about our introductory
> materials. But we’ll still have to work on making the materials more
> visible on the web site. Another item for the web site renewal project...
> >>

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 05:00:32 -1000

Radia
Let's say I were able to target a survey to only those who said they were going to attend the various tutorials - 

What questions would you like asked and what might suggested responses be that would be helpful to the group?

Ray

> On Nov 10, 2014, at 3:14 AM, Radia Perlman <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> I think there is opportunity for feedback on the entire IETF meeting that all registered participants have the opportunity to fill out (at least there has been at previous IETFs), and there are questions where one can say something about the tutorials you attended.  But very few IETF attendees bother filling those out, or even looking at it to notice there is opportunity for tutorial feedback.  I think feedback aimed specifically at those that attended tutorials, where they know that constructive feedback about what they wish would be covered that wasn't, whether the speaker was interesting, etc., might get more useful feedback.
> 
> Radia
>

---

From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:04:39 +0100

Hi Ray,

We would like to ask questions such as:

- How interesting did you find this topic? (from 1 - 5)
- How relevant was this topic for your work at the IETF? (from 1- 5)
- How did you like the presenter? (from 1 - 5)
- Do you have any suggestions how to improve this particular presentation?
- Do you have any suggestions for other topics?

Mirjam

On 10/11/14 16:00, Ray Pelletier wrote:
> Radia
> Let's say I were able to target a survey to only those who said they
> were going to attend the various tutorials - 
> 
> On Nov 10, 2014, at 3:14 AM, Radia Perlman <[email-masked]
> <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
> 
>> I think there is opportunity for feedback on the entire IETF meeting
>> that all registered participants have the opportunity to fill out (at
>> least there has been at previous IETFs), and there are questions where
>> one can say something about the tutorials you attended.  But very few
>> IETF attendees bother filling those out, or even looking at it to
>> notice there is opportunity for tutorial feedback.  I think feedback
>> aimed specifically at those that attended tutorials, where they know
>> that constructive feedback about what they wish would be covered that
>> wasn't, whether the speaker was interesting, etc., might get more
>> useful feedback.
>>
>> Radia
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 2:33 AM, Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]
>> <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
>>
>>     Hi,
>>
>>     >> This also inspired me to write a blog article about our
>>     introductory materials. But we’ll still have to work on making the
>>     materials more visible on the web site. Another item for the web
>>     site renewal project...
>>     >>
>>     >> [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
>>     [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
>> [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>

---

From: Radia Perlman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 08:01:16 -0800

I like Miriam's questions, with a couple of editorial suggestions below.
I'm wondering whether more visibility into the tutorials might push more
people into attending IETF in person, so perhaps it would be good to send
the questions to a wider audience than just the ones that say they will
attend a tutorial.

But at any rate, I think a separate survey about the tutorials would get
more response than one buried in the general IETF meeting survey.

Radia

> - How interesting did you find this topic? (from 1 - 5)

being careful to make sure they know whether 1 is best or worst.

> - How did you like the presenter? (from 1 - 5)

Perhaps "Was the presenter effective at explaining the concepts"?
("like" can be misinterpreted as whether the instructor is a nice guy)

Add "For instance, was there material you wish was covered that was not
included? Were there parts that were too hard to follow?"

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 06:47:25 +1300

On 10/11/2014 23:33, Mirjam Kuehne wrote:
...
> Did anyone attend the tutorials? How did it go? 

Unfortunately not. John Klensin has complained about the remote
access of course. Maybe we should ask the speakers.

   Brian

---

From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 10:36:51 +0100

Hi,

> access of course. Maybe we should ask the speakers.

I did.

Here is their feedback (contains some actions for us to be discussed at
your meeting in Honolulu or at the next conference call):

1. Lee Howard: Presentation Skills

It lasted exactly an hour.
I encouraged participation, to model the kind of discussion that I hope
to see in WG meetings, and I did get some extra notes. I would like to
revise the slide deck, but can't do it today.

The room wasn't full; I didn't count people there, but I think it was
more than 50 and less than 200.

Somebody did tell me at the Social that they thought it went well and
appreciated me doing it.

Feedback for EDU: I think the session was video recorded, although the
person doing the recording was also on the phone, which was a little
distracting. Since I like to walk around, the video may be hard to
follow--would the EDU team prefer presenters focus on the people in the
room, or on making good video?  If video, maybe we could work on how to
make better videos than just framing the stage.

We might be able to pull together some of the "how to write better
drafts" and this "how to present" into a page, or even an email,
together with the Tao, and send it out a few weeks after the meeting, to
encourage people to work on writing/revising their drafts and getting
discussion before the next meeting, and then preparing for the meeting.
I hope presentations in Dallas are better overall.

---------

2. Sean Turner & Alexey Melnikov: Security Area Overview

We only needed about an hour.  I think people liked that they could get
kind of an overview of the security-related WGs in the IETF.  Kinda felt
to me like an early SAAG.

There were what like 40-50 people there.  But, only about 5-9 were
new-new people (we asked).

We did ask for feedback and it was generally “thanks for the summary -
this kind of thing helped me figure out where to focus my time."

--------

3. Benoit Claise just said that the YANG session went pretty well.

Mirjam

---

From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 10:40:15 +0100

Thanks for the feedback, Radia. I agree with your additions. I was
thinking we could include the link to this specific survey at the end of
each tutorial and/or send it by email to the ietf list (but not everyone
is on that list of course).

Ray, what do you think? Would that be possible?

Mirjam

On 10/11/14 17:01, Radia Perlman wrote:
> people into attending IETF in person, so perhaps it would be good to
> send the questions to a wider audience than just the ones that say they
> will attend a tutorial.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 7:04 AM, Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 05:04:51 -1000

> Ray, what do you think? Would that be possible?

Would it be possible to send to 91All - everyone who registered for the 
meeting?

Yes.

Ray

---

From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 16:27:00 +0100

> Would it be possible to send to 91All - everyone who registered for the 

Yes, that's a good idea. Shall we do it for this IETF already or do you
want to wait until next time?

Mirjam

---

From: Radia Perlman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 07:08:36 -0500

> want to wait until next time?
I see no downside to starting now.

Radia

---

From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 11:57:14 +0100

Hi Ray,

As agreed, can you please send out a survey to the IETF 91 attendees
list after the meeting with the following questions:

1. Did you attend a tutorial on Sunday? If so which one?

2. How interesting did you find the topic? (from 1 (not so interesting)-
5 (very interesting))

3. How relevant was this topic for your work at the IETF? (from 1 (not
relevant at all) - 5 (very relevant))

4. Was the presenter effective at explaining the concepts? (from 1 (not
effective at all) - 5 (very effective))

5. Do you have any suggestions how to improve this particular
presentation? For instance, was there material you wish was covered that
was not included? Or were there parts that were too hard to follow?

6. Do you have any suggestions for other topics?

Let us know if you have any questions, Ray.

Thanks,
Mirjam