Subject: [Geopriv] Your Postal Address vs your "real" address

From: "Brian Rosen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:58:25 -0500

In some areas, the Post Office, for historical, bureaucratic, and other
reasons, sometimes decides that your address for postal reasons is not the
same as your actual, legal, address.

In the U.S., the common difference is the "Municipality" name (City/Town).
My address is one of those.  My postal address is in Mars, PA.  However, I
actually live in Pine Township.  There turns out not to be a post office
called "Pine"; the residents of Pine Township may be served by the post
office in Wexford, Gibsonia or Mars.  There really is a Mars, PA, but it is
located in the adjacent county.  There used to be a Gibsonia and a Wexford,
but they are now just part of Pine Township.

While in most cases, if you need my address, you want my postal address,
there are several cases where that is incorrect, and can cause significant
problems.  One is emergency services.  Since Mars is in Butler County, and
Pine is in Allegheny County, if you route an emergency call based on the
Mars address, you will send the call to the wrong place.  Also, if you
wanted to determine, for example, the appropriate library, or a polling
place, or any other of the myriad issues that are related to your legal
place of residence (or business), then you really want the actual address.  

So, while for maybe 97% of the time postal address is correct, you sometimes
need the legal address.

Neither PIDF-LO nor the civic DHCP option deals with this.

I would like to specifically request that we allow another "CAType" in the
DHCP civic option.  We'll deal with the PIDF-LO later.

Brian

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---

From: Ted Hardie <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:11:38 -0800

Brian,
	I don't understand this proposal.   Are you proposing
a CAType like:  legalTown, parallel to A3?  Or are you proposing
a full parallel structure, so that variations in the Postal
Address vs. Legal Address can occur at multiple levels?

I also wonder if you are not reading too much into this:

  US (United States): The mapping to NENA designations is shown in
       parentheses.  A1=state (STA), using the the two-letter state and
       possession abbreviations recommended by the United States Postal
       Service Publication 28 [15], Appendix B; A2=county (CNA); A3=civic
       community name (city or town) (MCN); A6=street (STN).  A4 and A5
       are not used.  The civic community name (MCN) reflects the
       political boundaries.  These may differ from postal delivery
       assignments for historical or practical reasons.

Are you assuming that because Postal Service Publication recommendations
are used that the civic community name chosen must be the one
that postal delivery would use?  I read the last sentence to mean
that they need not be, and that they could be the MCN most
appropriate for delivery of services, including emergency services.
			regards,
				ted Hardie

---

From: "Brian Rosen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:35:45 -0500

Ted

For the U.S., it's acceptable to just have the extra CAType.
I was wondering if there are similar, but not exactly the same problems
elsewhere.

In NENA requirements, the State, Pre/Post directionals and suffix must
follow USPS recommendations.  NENA standards carry both a "postal" community
name and an "MSAG" (i.e. legal) community name.  The post office always uses
the postal community name, and never needs, or wants, the legal one.

The text you are citing would have the reported address be the legal
address.  That would be satisfactory for emergency routing, but would make
the mechanism not very useful for most other purposes.  Almost all
commercial services run off of postal addresses.  Even the emergency folks
really want both, because they ask you verbally for your address, and you
almost always report your postal address when asked.  The call routing MUST
be on the legal community name, so if you have to pick one, the legal is the
right one. 

If I was only concerned with emergency services, then I would be okay with
the text as it stands.  As an IETF standard, we probably want both legal and
postal MCNs, and even the emergency folks usually want both. 

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Hardie [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:12 PM
> To: Brian Rosen; 'GEOPRIV WG'
> Subject: Re: [Geopriv] Your Postal Address vs your "real" address
> 
> Brian,

---

From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:11:31 -0500

As far as I know, only the community name differs between the two 
addresses. Thus, it would be

123 Main Street
MyLegalTown

and
123 Main Street
MyPostOfficeTown, CA 12345

The postal community name would *not* be needed for emergency 
communications and would not be part of the Ax hierarchy, but 
DHCP-provided location information

---

From: Ted Hardie <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:24:21 -0800

>For the U.S., it's acceptable to just have the extra CAType.

I am not sure that this is the case.  In a previous real estate
foray, I bought a house in the unincorporated section of a county.
The postal address was Number 1st Street Name, 1st Nearby Town, State, ZIP.
The legal address was (Same Number) 2nd Street Name,
Unincorporated County Name, State, ZIP.  The  1st street name in case one
derived from a *different nearby town*, through which one had to
drive to reach the house; it did not exist at all in the legal delimits
of the 1st town.  The 2nd street did exist in the nearby town, but was blocked
by a railroad track.  The upshot was that the tax payments
referenced one address, the postal mail had a different address
(including a different street name), and that ordering a taxi
or a pizza involved an explanation.   I am not sure what the
NENA standard would have said the MSAG was for that addresses.  Since the
emergency services are contracted to the town in the postal
address, the question isn't as simply as it might appear, since
there are lots of other unincorporated bits to that county and those
bits have other arrangements.

The upshot of this is that I personally don't think adding a single CAType
will handle the wildness in the real world.  In the case of a real
human, the answer was to know both addresses and have both
ready, tagged, for when they were needed.  If we are going to head
down this road, I personally think that sort of mechanism might be more
effective.  That would mark a whole address as "postal" or
"emergency services" or something else.  But starting that discussion
at this point in the development of this document seems likely
to delay things in some problematic ways.

What are other opinions on the CAType idea vs. other ways forward?

(refrain:  Just ted's personal opinion),
			regards,
				Ted

---

From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:34:14 -0500

As a side note, I should note that the MSAG XML format contains the 
postal community name, called <PostalCommunity>:

I'm cutting-and-pasting from 
http://www.nena.org/xml_schemas/Current%20Release/XALI-SchemaFamily/HTML%20Docs/ALITypeLib.xsd.html#type_StreetAddressType

<HouseNum> tns:HouseNumType </HouseNum> [1]
<HouseNumSuffix> tns:HouseNumSuffixType </HouseNumSuffix> [0..1]
<PrefixDirectional> tns:PrefixDirectionalType </PrefixDirectional> [0..1]
<StreetName> tns:StreetNameType </StreetName> [1]
<StreetSuffix> tns:StreetSuffixType </StreetSuffix> [0..1]
<PostDirectional> tns:PostDirectionalType </PostDirectional> [0..1]
<MSAGCommunity> tns:MSAGCommunityNameType </MSAGCommunity> [1]
<PostalCommunity> tns:PostalCommunityNameType </PostalCommunity> [0..1]
<StateProvince> tns:StateProvinceType </StateProvince> [1]
<CountyID> tns:CountyIDType </CountyID> [0..1]
<TARCode> tns:TARCodeType </TARCode> [0..1]
<PostalZipCode> tns:ZipType </PostalZipCode> [0..1]
<LocationDescription> tns:LocationDescriptionType </LocationDescription> 
[0..1]
<LandmarkAddress> tns:LandmarkAddressType </LandmarkAddress> [0..1]

It was my omission not to include in the initial list of CAtypes.

This is not a big change and, as far as I can tell, has no second-order 
impact.

---

From: "Brian Rosen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:37:55 -0500

Wow.

I can tell you that the 9-1-1 folks would have taken the postal address with
the actual (MSAG or legal) community name as the address, although they
don't really check out detail very much; they really go by what the service
address listed in the telephone company records.  Of course, you care,
because when the dispatcher reads out the address reported to the ambulance
or fire department, you would like them to know where to go.

When a community first establishes so called "E911", "E" for "Enhanced" they
get the municipalities to assign real street names, and the post office to
assign unique street numbers, which is subsequently used by both the 9-1-1
system and the post office (albeit with potentially different community
names), but they don't often back annotate the legal records with those
addresses.  

I wouldn't really object to another entire address, although for the
purposes of location in a DHCP query (or PIDF-LO), I think we get all the
bang we need for the two MCN buck.  Your mileage may vary.

Brian

> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 3:24 PM
> Subject: RE: [Geopriv] Your Postal Address vs your "real" address
> 
> >>  >reasons, sometimes decides that your address for postal reasons is
> not
> >>  the
> >>  >My address is one of those.  My postal address is in Mars, PA.
> However,
> >>  I
> >>  >office in Wexford, Gibsonia or Mars.  There really is a Mars, PA, but
> it
> >>  is
> >>  >problems.  One is emergency services.  Since Mars is in Butler
> County,
> >>  and
> >>  >I would like to specifically request that we allow another "CAType"
> in
> >>  the

---

From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:10:20 -0500

Another remark: I think with any address, being governed by history, 
customs and often designed in simpler times, we'll find exceptions and 
special cases that affect a relatively small fraction of users. One 
approach is not to try to solve the last fraction of problems in a 
structured way and rely on some of the free-form fields, for example LMK 
(CAtype=21) for "aliases" such as Ted's.

Brian Rosen wrote:
>>>follow USPS recommendations.  NENA standards carry both a "postal"
>>
>>community
>>
>>>name and an "MSAG" (i.e. legal) community name.  The post office always
>>
>>uses
>>
>>>address.  That would be satisfactory for emergency routing, but would
>>
>>make
>>
>>>commercial services run off of postal addresses.  Even the emergency
>>
>>folks
>>
>>>almost always report your postal address when asked.  The call routing
>>
>>MUST
>>
>>>be on the legal community name, so if you have to pick one, the legal is
>>
>>the
>>
>>>right one.
>>>
>>>If I was only concerned with emergency services, then I would be okay
>>
>>with
>>
>>>the text as it stands.  As an IETF standard, we probably want both legal
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>        parentheses.  A1=state (STA), using the the two-letter state
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>        possession abbreviations recommended by the United States
>>
>>Postal
>>
>>>>        Service Publication 28 [15], Appendix B; A2=county (CNA);
>>
>>A3=civic
>>
>>>>        community name (city or town) (MCN); A6=street (STN).  A4 and
>>
>>A5
>>
>>>> Are you assuming that because Postal Service Publication
>>
>>recommendations
>>
>>>> >In some areas, the Post Office, for historical, bureaucratic, and
>>
>>other
>>
>>>> >actually live in Pine Township.  There turns out not to be a post
>>
>>office
>>
>>>> >called "Pine"; the residents of Pine Township may be served by the
>>
>>post
>>
>>>> >While in most cases, if you need my address, you want my postal
>>
>>address,
>>
>>>> >Pine is in Allegheny County, if you route an emergency call based on
>>
>>the
>>
>>>> >Mars address, you will send the call to the wrong place.  Also, if
>>
>>you
>>
>>>> >wanted to determine, for example, the appropriate library, or a
>>
>>polling
>>
>>>> >place, or any other of the myriad issues that are related to your
>>
>>legal
>>