Subject: Re: [hrpc] re implementation of code 451

From: Mallory Knodel <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 06:06:42 -0400

Hi,

On 3/8/21 3:27 PM, Sandra Braman wrote:
> A correction:  In my earlier email in response to Mallory's response 
> to my comments on draft association, I referred to errors in a 
> document about US law.  Having been given next to no time to absorb 
> and think through the new draft and her comments before IETF began, 
> during a period in which I have several other commitments in place, I 
> was in a rush but let me correct the point.  What I was thinking of 
> was in the draft implementation report on Code 451 
> (https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-451-imp-report-00.html#rfc.section.6 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-451-imp-report-00.html#rfc.section.6>).� 
> Section 17.1 here re US law is correct, there is a statutory 
> requirement that third party intermediaries take down copyrighted 
> content in response to assertions of infringement, having in essence 
> been deputized by the US government to that end in lieu of requiring 
> disputes to actually be settled in court (itself very problematic). 
> Most of the items in 17.2 are private party decisions, not legal 
> requirements -- it was to those, and additional areas in which high 
> profile takedowns have taken place recently, upon which I was 
> commenting when I said that these are NOT legally mandated takedowns 
> for which use of code 451 would be appropriate.
>
> As a separate matter:  I'd love to do a full-bore analysis of where 
> things are with code 451 at this point, if anyone with the technical 
> skills required to see what has happened and is happening would be 
> interested in collaborating on such a project.

There were a couple of things that sort of dampened this work, though 
451 is still in use by some.

The first is DoH or any private DNS really where you can't so easily 
MITM DNS traffic to show someone a landing page with an error code.

The second was a general distaste for measuring it. When I talked to 
folks who do measurement of censorship, they seemed skeptical that the 
statistics on use of 451 would be meaningful. Besides, they said, they 
were more interested in illegitimate filtering and blocking being done 
by authoritarians, not so much interested in how well US lawyers are 
invoking the DMCA (presumably and anecdotally where most 451 traffic 
comes from).

-Mallory

> -- 

Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

---

From: Eric Rescorla <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 13:12:35 -0700

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 3:06 AM Mallory Knodel <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > <https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-451-imp-report-00.html#rfc.section.6>).Â
>

It's worth nothing that even without DoH, this is increasingly impractical
because of the use of HTTPS.

-Ekr

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