Subject: Media Fragments spec and HTTP

From: Mark Nottingham <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 16:25:01 +1000

It's been pointed out to me that the W3C Media Fragments URI 1.0 specification is in Second Last Call, and contains some new HTTP-related values, including:

* a variety of new range specifiers:
  http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-media-frags-20110317/#processing-protocol-Server-mapped

* new HTTP header "Content-Range-Mapping":
  http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-media-frags-20110317/#processing-protocol-Server-mapped

* new HTTP headers "Accept-Range-Redirect" and "Range-Redirect":
  http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-media-frags-20110317/#processing-protocol-server-mapped-proxy

I may have missed others; I've only had a quick look,and it's a big document.

One thing that jumped out at me was examples like this:

  Range: t:npt=10-20;include-setup

... even though "t:npt" is not identified as a range unit (only "t" is).

Is anyone willing to have a look at this from an HTTP perspective? I note Yves is listed as a contributor, but it would be good to have a bit more cross-review.

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/

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From: Adrien de Croy <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 19:56:31 +1200

>    Range: t:npt=10-20;include-setup

sheer madness.

Why can't they use some other header?  Or put the pagination into the 
URI so it can be cached?

IMO it was always an awful idea to even contemplate other range units.

* Content-Length can't be specified in other units.
* Chunk headers can only be bytes.

Framing is in bytes.

So it doesn't make sense to use anything other than bytes for Range.  
Anything else becomes opaque to any intermediary (good-bye 
cachability).  Furthermore Range is commonly stripped from requests by 
intermediaries that need the whole resource (e.g. for scanning).

Adrien

-- 
Adrien de Croy - WinGate Proxy Server - http://www.wingate.com

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From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 12:07:42 +0000

>>    Range: t:npt=10-20;include-setup

Indeed.

We should not allow them to mess up Range: this way.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
[email-masked]         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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From: Dzonatas Sol <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 08:46:00 -0700

> Is anyone willing to have a look at this from an HTTP perspective? I note Yves is listed as a contributor, but it would be good to have a bit more cross-review.

Positive towards hyper-media transfers even if complex to explain what 
it dissolves. I mean complex here as in http in http queries at least 
for the obvious reasons like spdy, round-trip reduction, and multiple 
license issues. I'll have to simulate this more for recent ideas about 
multiple regions in variable frame-complexes, which I think useful for 
time-ranges. (I.E. JPIP-3D proxy/server)

Thanks for this pointer!

-- 
--- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol ---
Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant

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From: Dzonatas Sol <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 10:13:42 -0700

One thing the JPIP standard doesn't have is full specs for full 3D frame 
issues,  yet if you want to get involved independently then think of the 
fields that Nottingham pointed to with the addition requirements of 
quaternions. Then apply http in http (or hyper-media) upon such vectors. 
You'll get the idea if you are familiar with this much, and you'll see 
what we have kept open for improvement.

Not everybody wants to hand over their complete asset just for somebody 
to view, so we can provide pre-render/renditions, especially with analog 
sources.

On 05/12/2011 08:46 AM, Dzonatas Sol wrote:
>> Is anyone willing to have a look at this from an HTTP perspective? I 
>> note Yves is listed as a contributor, but it would be good to have a 
>> bit more cross-review.
>>
>>
>

--

---

From: Dzonatas Sol <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 11:01:12 -0700

After review of concerns, if the stack accepts only specific range of 
quaternions then this literally "dumb terminals" the endless 
transistions. Consider path resolution by traversal (trans-versal) and 
schemes to optimize such flow and this may not seem like sheer madness.

In the hypermedia, think of http in http (or http in smtp), imagine 
simple little game with the of the Rubic's cube. The cube is normally 
3D, yet they have 4D and 5D versions. Quaternions are like subsets of 
optimized 4D solutions of the 3D rubic cube in O(1). People stop there 
yet they need to not quantum spin the 3D cube, the error or exploits 
happen when the cube spins. The easier way to avoid that is to use 5D to 
solve quaternions in O(1). There the concept remains abstract.

I like to think of the Ethernet as the 5D perspective and the Internet 
as the 3D perspective and the 4D as the intermediary solution. With that 
we can decide what objects are safe for what VMs without massive 
authentication schemes, lookups, and verification processes. With each 
perspective as monomers, this polymerization of HTTP into "dumb 
terminals" (with quaternion ranges) limits flow because we often find 
"hyper-" not used to best effort or too easily doomed for abuse of 
resources.

Now, I have a less of a headache from organic 6D DNA folds...

On 05/12/2011 10:13 AM, Dzonatas Sol wrote:
> One thing the JPIP standard doesn't have is full specs for full 3D 
> frame issues,  yet if you want to get involved independently then 
> think of the fields that Nottingham pointed to with the addition 
> requirements of quaternions. Then apply http in http (or hyper-media) 
> upon such vectors. You'll get the idea if you are familiar with this 
> much, and you'll see what we have kept open for improvement.
>
> Not everybody wants to hand over their complete asset just for 
> somebody to view, so we can provide pre-render/renditions, especially 
> with analog sources.
>
>> Positive towards hyper-media transfers even if complex to explain 
>> what it dissolves. I mean complex here as in http in http queries at 
>> least for the obvious reasons like spdy, round-trip reduction, and 
>> multiple license issues. I'll have to simulate this more for recent 
>> ideas about multiple regions in variable frame-complexes, which I 
>> think useful for time-ranges. (I.E. JPIP-3D proxy/server)
>>
>> Thanks for this pointer!
>>
>
>

--

---

From: Dzonatas Sol <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 14:21:15 -0700

The obvious questioned me about that book. I learned already humans need 
not explain about that potential of inhumane exponential messages.

I would suggest replacement of the Host: header with Precursor: text. 
The URN: idea is easier, no?

Compare:
 > Host: www.internet.net
with:
 > Precursor: www.internet.ipv4.net
and:
 > Host:Ipv4: www.internet.net
.

Let observers resolve their object stacks to current standards.

On 05/13/2011 11:01 AM, Dzonatas Sol wrote:
> happen when the cube spins. The easier way to avoid that is to use 5D 
> to solve quaternions in O(1). There the concept remains abstract.
>
> as the 3D perspective and the 4D as the intermediary solution. With 
> that we can decide what objects are safe for what VMs without massive 
>>>> Is anyone willing to have a look at this from an HTTP perspective? 
>>>> I note Yves is listed as a contributor, but it would be good to 
>>>> have a bit more cross-review.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>

--

---

From: Yves Lafon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 16:44:49 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 12 May 2011, Mark Nottingham wrote:

> It's been pointed out to me that the W3C Media Fragments URI 1.0 
> specification is in Second Last Call, and contains some new HTTP-related 
> values, including:
>
> note Yves is listed as a contributor, but it would be good to have a bit 
> more cross-review.

The spec (which is still a draft) contains different "recipes" to try to 
avoid requesting a huge video when only a small seconds are needed. As it 
is quite likely that there won't be enough implementation of any of them, 
they should all disappear from the spec, but I will provide a review of 
those to this list (with context).

-- 
Baroula que barouleras, au tiéu toujou t'entourneras.

         ~~Yves