Subject: [Ietf-languages] Language Subtag Registration

From: Nicholas Felker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:06:57 -0700

1. Name of requester: Nick Felker
   2. E-mail address of requester: nickfelker at gmail dot com
   3. Record Requested:

      Type: variant
      Subtag: philly
      Description: Philadelphia dialect of US English
      Prefix: en-US

   4. Intended meaning of the subtag:

The specific dialect of English as people speak in Philadelphia and the
surrounding neighborhoods. This is not a simple accent or set of
colloquialisms. I would argue that it is a unique variant of standard US
English which has its own set of vocabulary, grammatical rules, and
pronunciations that make it distinct in comparison to language used in
other regions.

It is a blend of language which has evolved due to the cultural diversity
of the city, with a mix of African American Vernacular English along with
European immigrants from varying nations over several centuries.

As stated in section 3.6 of the RFC 5646, "variations within a
language...or distinguishing variation MAY be registered as variant
subtags". I believe that there is sufficient evidence to state that
Philadelphia English is considered a distinguishing variation. This
language variant has received ample study over the past several decades in
both a colloquial setting as well as from professional linguists.

   5. Reference to published description
      of the language (book or article):

The role of African Americans in Philadelphia sound change - William Labov
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/language-variation-and-change/article/role-of-african-americans-in-philadelphia-sound-change/9685036E424DB63B70D06FF8A66AA67F

A Jawn by Any Other Name: A Sociolinguistic Analysis of the Philadelphia
Dialect - Ryan Hall
https://digitalcommons.lasalle.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=honors_projects

   6. Any other relevant information:

Philadelphia English - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_English

Project by Penn linguists documents Philadelphia accent in ASL
https://penntoday.upenn.edu/2016-01-21/research/project-penn-linguists-documents-philadelphia-accent-asl

---

From: "Gordon P. Hemsley" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 09:57:35 -0400

I object to this proposal.

The registration makes the claim that Philadelphia English is "not a
simple accent or set of colloquialisms", but then provides evidence that
suggests just the opposite. No source has been provided that supports
the notion that Philadelphia English is any more than a distinctive
collection of phonological patterns and lexicon, a concept that is
prevalent throughout English (and other languages), and I don't see why
we would need a variant tag for each of them. In addition, many of the
cited patterns and vocabulary are not unique to Philadelphia; each has
its own gradient of use up and down the East Coast of the United States.

In addition, one of the citations in the "other relevant information"
section is about ASL, which is a distinct language from English and
therefore not in fact relevant to the proposal.

I recommend that this proposal be rejected.

Gordon P. Hemsley
[email-masked]
http://gphemsley.org/

On 08/21/2018 03:06 PM, Nicholas Felker wrote:
> It is a blend of language which has evolved due to the cultural
> diversity of the city, with a mix of African American Vernacular English
> along with European immigrants from varying nations over several centuries.
> 
> language variant has received ample study over the past several decades
> in both a colloquial setting as well as from professional linguists.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
>

---

From: Mark Davis ☕️ <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:46:08 +0200

I would agree.

Mark

---

From: CE Whitehead <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 23:09:59 +0000

I am not sure whether a Philly subtag right now would be a good idea; eventually I suppose we will get subtags for all dialects but we also have localization data we can use; there is yet no subtag for English as spoken in Brooklyn or New York but some dialects such as New Foundland do have subtags.
I do think that the accents though vary with city location -- that is what I read -- that there is some isolation especially a Black-White gap, but it's not complete isolation.
(I like the Ryan Wall article/paper; I found some more shorter articles:
https://billypenn.com/2016/04/11/how-does-phillys-accent-change-around-the-city-hear-for-yourself/
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_good_word/2014/04/pennsylvania_dialects_from_pittsburghese_to_philadelphia_speak_the_keystone.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/philadelphians-have-a-unique-accent-with-pronunciation-evolving-over-the-decades/2013/04/29/fcfe7b18-ae74-11e2-98ef-d1072ed3cc27_story.html?noredirect=on
I imagine that with Philly we will need Brooklyn or New York City, Pittsburgh, Fitchburg/Boston (depends; Fitchburg accent is stronger), Midwest, New Orleans (New Orleans is really unique like nowhere else in the south especially for old-timer whites; and Atlanta really has its own way of speaking I suppose too but I am not getting involved with Atlanta bad karma and I am waiting to see about New Orleans; as for Texas I was told not sure it's true that the word 'mile' in Texas referred to a different distance than it did elsewhere)
Best,
--C. E. Whitehead
[email-masked]

________________________________
De : Ietf-languages <[email-masked]> de la part de Mark Davis ☕️ <[email-masked]>
Envoyé : jeudi 23 août 2018 10:46
À : [email-masked]
Cc : [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Objet : Re: [Ietf-languages] Language Subtag Registration

I would agree.

Mark

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 4:07 PM Gordon P. Hemsley <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
I object to this proposal.

Gordon P. Hemsley
[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
http://gphemsley.org/<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgphemsley.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd8274b70bcbb4215a1c608d609073abf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636706323981499166&sdata=16nDE52eHSAecPZAEk9i4LjnGYiIc9s5cAywyqT9gZA%3D&reserved=0>

On 08/21/2018 03:06 PM, Nicholas Felker wrote:
> https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/language-variation-and-change/article/role-of-african-americans-in-philadelphia-sound-change/9685036E424DB63B70D06FF8A66AA67F<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2Fcore%2Fjournals%2Flanguage-variation-and-change%2Farticle%2Frole-of-african-americans-in-philadelphia-sound-change%2F9685036E424DB63B70D06FF8A66AA67F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd8274b70bcbb4215a1c608d609073abf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636706323981655415&sdata=OJufw0Q5QnOFEmTkYkae7LekYWi7HRV9sR6icDQddQQ%3D&reserved=0>
>
> https://digitalcommons.lasalle.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=honors_projects<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcommons.lasalle.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1032%26context%3Dhonors_projects&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd8274b70bcbb4215a1c608d609073abf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636706323981655415&sdata=Kjc3ITXizotQxKO35EtHZL26w9gLOuL8N0zErJR2X8M%3D&reserved=0>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_English<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPhiladelphia_English&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd8274b70bcbb4215a1c608d609073abf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636706323981655415&sdata=fFArloxuduTEHee3kqrbzG5cux%2FwCQ%2Fb1Esv65IGDLo%3D&reserved=0>
>
> https://penntoday.upenn.edu/2016-01-21/research/project-penn-linguists-documents-philadelphia-accent-asl<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpenntoday.upenn.edu%2F2016-01-21%2Fresearch%2Fproject-penn-linguists-documents-philadelphia-accent-asl&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd8274b70bcbb4215a1c608d609073abf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636706323981655415&sdata=VfRV0MgVksUAaNehTsMaU8QLMApC2PrKUQ5Lx2ZeyXo%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
> [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fietf-languages&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd8274b70bcbb4215a1c608d609073abf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636706323981655415&sdata=Kd%2FpRRAV7SjrE5l2V0Sj4RVNOu4UEhFp7L%2BGlo84svs%3D&reserved=0>
>

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---

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 20:56:38 -0400

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 7:10 PM CE Whitehead <[email-masked]> wrote:

I imagine that with Philly we will need Brooklyn or New York City,
> Pittsburgh, Fitchburg/Boston
>

Our policy is to add geographical variants when requested rather than
systematically all at once, because it's far from clear where to stop.

I was told not sure it's true that the word 'mile' in Texas referred to a
> different distance than it did elsewhere)
>

Not as far as I can tell.  But Irish miles (about 27% longer) and acres
(about 62% larger), though officially abolished in 1824, were in use,
though increasingly less so, until Ireland went metric in the 1970s.

-- 
John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        [email-masked]
Any day you [see] all five woodpeckers is a good day.  --Elliotte Rusty
Harold

---

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 10:44:48 -0600

Gordon P. Hemsley wrote:

> simple accent or set of colloquialisms", but then provides evidence
> that suggests just the opposite. No source has been provided that
> supports the notion that Philadelphia English is any more than a
> distinctive collection of phonological patterns and lexicon,

Nick, can you provide references that show that Philadelphia English is 
more than an accent and a regional vocabulary? For example, are there 
any grammatical or syntactical differences?

As Gordon points out, differences in accent and regionalisms are 
prevalent throughout U.S. English, and aren't normally considered 
"taggable differences," such that a distinct language tag would serve a 
practical purpose in identification. This was the main reason I didn't 
propose Pittsburgh English after all.

--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org

---

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 12:01:43 -0600

CE Whitehead wrote:

> eventually I suppose we will get subtags for all dialects

I don't see any basis for supposing that. Even if it were possible to 
define and identify "all dialects," and practical to characterize and 
exemplify them, a case would still have to be made for the utility of 
each such subtag for tagging content.

> there is yet no subtag for English as spoken in Brooklyn or New York
> but some dialects such as New Foundland do have subtags.

Newfoundland English differs in more than just accent and a limited set 
of regional terms. As the references cited by the registration form 
showed, there are grammatical differences as well.

> I do think that the accents though vary with city location

It's almost never just about accents, and shouldn't be really. Once you 
get past a handful of very well-known regional accents, the line between 
"Michigan English" and "the way my cousin in Sault Ste. Marie talks" 
becomes very vague.

---

From: Hugh Paterson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 11:17:35 -0700

Is anyone aware of how speech-to-text tools use these sub-tags (if at all).
I'd like to know more about that, but I'm not sure where to look. Feel free
to ping me off list as this is a bit tangential.

thanks,
- Hugh

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 11:01 AM, Doug Ewell <[email-masked]> wrote:

> exemplify them, a case would still have to be made for the utility of each
> such subtag for tagging content.
>
> Newfoundland English differs in more than just accent and a limited set of
> regional terms. As the references cited by the registration form showed,
> there are grammatical differences as well.
>

-- 
*Hugh Paterson III *Innovation Analyst
*Innovation Development & Experimentation*, *SIL International*

*Web*: Contact & CV <http://hughandbecky.us/Hugh-CV/>

---

From: Nicholas Felker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 20:25:48 -0500

I am also pretty interested in the auditory aspect of sub-tags. Right now
TTS engines will use the language and region, but don't seem to go any
deeper into sub-tags.

-Nick

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 1:18 PM Hugh Paterson <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Is anyone aware of how speech-to-text tools use these sub-tags (if at
> all). I'd like to know more about that, but I'm not sure where to look.
> Feel free to ping me off list as this is a bit tangential.
>
> thanks,
> - Hugh
>
>> of regional terms. As the references cited by the registration form showed,

---

From: Nicholas Felker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 21:07:38 -0500

There are several syntactic differences:

For example, "with" and an implicit target, ie. "Do you want to come with?"

There is the positive use of anymore, ie. "Cars are so expensive anymore",
which is distinct as anymore is typically used with a negative connotation.

There is the unusual usage of "done" which has distinctive usages.

It may mean you actually haven't finished it but are not interested in it
anymore. For example, saying "I'm done with the water" may not mean that
the water is completely consumed, but you no longer are thirsty.

It can also be used by omitting an article to imply the task or event is
completed. For example, "I'm call you when I'm done work" may read a bit
odd, but is used when the activity is finished.

Also, the local word "jawn" does not have a specific definition, but can be
used in a replacement for many nouns in a sentence when the meaning is
implicit. For example, if we were at a barbecue, one may say "Put some
cheese on that jawn" or "I'm thirsty. Do you have any cold jawns?" In this
sense it stands out as it's not a simple word replacement but a unique word
that that does not have a more generalized equivalent.

-Nick

---

From: Nicholas Felker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 14:20:08 -0500

Unlike the case of one's cousin speaking a bit oddly or an informal accent,
there are actually a number of scholarly analyses of Philadelphia English,
such as Professor William Labov who has written a number of linguistic
books and commenting on the dialect of Philadelphia.

-Nick

---

From: Mark Davis ☕️ <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 11:20:31 +0200

Repeating from 2005:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-languages/9nzQ2puMCjfeBOY1vG8QPx6II0A

More seriously:

There is already a mechanism in BCP47 to specific down to the US state
level, eg en-US-u-sd-uspa means "English as spoken in Pennsylvania". That
works the same way as en-NZ  means "English as spoken in New Zealand".

(The sd codes use ISO subdivisions, so they are more or less fine-grained
according to whatever is in ISO. The code en-GB-u-sd-gbsct means "English
as spoken in Scotland" for example, while en-GB-u-sd-gbglg means "English
as spoken in Glasgow", and en-IE-u-sd-ielk means English as spoken
in Limerick.)

If people were actually serious about 'philly', and the state level were
insufficient, it would be time to get out of the business of encoding every
city in the world, and just come up with a general geographic mechanism so
that the registry is not burdened with an arbitrary hodgepodge of
geographic entities.

Eg
"en-u-xx-USPHL" — UNLOC code for Philadelphia (
https://service.unece.org/trade/locode/us.htm)
"en-u-xx-87F6XR2P" — pluscode for Philadelphia (https://plus.codes/87F6XR2P+
"en-u-xx-PHL" — Airport code.
or ...

Now, I doubt that any significant number of people would use these codes,
much as I doubt that any significant number of people would use en-philly.
But allows those who truly need something a mechanism for expressing it,
without

Mark

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:20 PM Nicholas Felker <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> Unlike the case of one's cousin speaking a bit oddly or an informal
> accent, there are actually a number of scholarly analyses of Philadelphia
> English, such as Professor William Labov who has written a number of
> linguistic books and commenting on the dialect of Philadelphia.
>
> -Nick
>