Subject: More member-only anti-spam

From: Lloyd Wood <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:44:56 +0000 (GMT)

On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Emmanuel Duros wrote on udlr:

> I am forwarding this mails to the udlr mailing list.
> There has been for several months an anti-spam mechanism at INRIA. It
> basicaly prevents unsubscribed people from sending mails to the mailing
> list. Unfortunately, [email-masked] is one of them...
[..]

quite important forwarded mail of 10 Feb, indicating udlr draft moving
to proposed standard, snipped.

You just can't do members-only on IETF WG lists. See recent discussion
on poisson. I'd suggest moving the list elsewhere...

Antispam measures interfere with the normal business of the IETF, to
its detriment.

L.

<[email-masked]>PGP<http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/>

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From: Emmanuel Duros <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:06:19 +0100

Lloyd,

My explanation was probably a bit too short but it is not only members
who can send mails to the udlr mailing list but also non members as long
as they reply to a confirmation message. Spamers don't reply to
confirmation messages, furtunately.

When I was at INRIA, I was administrating the UDLR mailing list, adding
and deleting emails manually from the list of members (it was taking me
more and more time...). Meanwhile, we started to receive spams like "how
to be a millionaire", "how to get a degree in computing" as well as
pointers to X sites...

Members were strongly complaining about these mails asking me to do
something efficient enough to stop this.

As a result, INRIA put in place a mechanism to add/delete members
automaticaly to/from the UDLR mailing list. It was also supposed to stop
spaming, and I believe it still works pretty well.

Today, when a non-member sends a mail to the mailing list, a
confirmation message is sent back to him. If the non-member replies to
it, the original mail is forwarded to the mailing list. Generally, if
the non-member is a spamer, he will never reply to the confirmation.

I believe that non-members can still send mails to the UDLR mailing
list, it just takes one extra-step. 
Would this cost be too high for an antispam measure ?

Anyway, if there is a standard way to administrate a mailing list, I
will be very glad to hear about it and see what I can do with INRIA.

Regards,
Emmanuel
--

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From: Lloyd Wood <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:30:48 +0000 (GMT)

> confirmation messages, furtunately.

and does the IESG?

(This scenario is exactly what we discussed on poisson.)

> Would this cost be too high for an antispam measure ?

It impedes interworking between IETF groups, with mails being
delayed or lost. As an inconvenience, it discourages
cross-fertilisation.

I almost deleted the confirmation email by reflex - it just looked
like hypertext junk. (I'm a udlr member, but the list software can't
cope with variations in my email address.)

L.

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From: RJ Atkinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:53:02 -0500

>on poisson. I'd suggest moving the list elsewhere...

        I'm not sure what "members-only" means in your usage.
Self-moderated[1] lists have been permitted for some years in
IETF business, provided that non-subscriber email goes to some
human who then posts the on-topic email.

        The IESG have put authoritative information online at:
http://www.ietf.org/IESG/STATEMENTS/moderated-lists.txt,
which folks ought to at least review prior to commenting further.

Ran
[email-masked]
speaking only for myself

[1] A self-moderated list is one that accepts postings from a
source email address that is subscribed to the list but declines 
to accept postings from source email address that is not on
the list.  Most usually, postings from a source email address
that is not subscribed to the list would go to a human list
administrator.

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From: James M Galvin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:38:32 -0500 (EST)

Speaking as co-Chair of POISSON, before we go too far down this
discussion right now, POISSON will be taking up the topic of
requirements for IETF mailing lists with the goal of producing a
suitable document (or two or three or whatever).

Please be patient for a short while longer and watch for the
announcement on "[email-masked]".  If you're interested in
this topic I would suggest you subscribe to that mailing list now, by
sending a message with the single word "subscribe" in the body to
"[email-masked]".

Thanks,

Jim

On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Lloyd Wood wrote:

    Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:44:56 +0000 (GMT)
    From: Lloyd Wood <[email-masked]>
    To: [email-masked]
    Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked]
    Subject: More member-only anti-spam

    [..]

    
    
    L.