Subject: Deja Vu

From: Phil Karn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:10:21 -0800

Well, here I am at the Minneapolis IETF. And I'm overwhelmed by a sense
of deja vu.

Having to stay at the Marquette hotel 3+ blocks away because, living
on the west coast, I'm at least 50 milli-light-seconds farther away
than most of the people contending for the token number of on-site
hotel rooms when the meeting site is announced.

The much-touted "skyway" that is inevitably locked when you want to
return to your hotel, forcing an unprotected late-night dash out on
the Martian, uh, Minneapolis surface if you didn't have the foresight
to lug your spacesuit, uh, winter coat with you all day.

The countless eateries in said skyway that (even when the skyway is
open) always seem to be closed whenever you're looking for food.

The electronic outdoor temperature sign in the skyway reading
"39". The units aren't mentioned. Kelvins?

The stockbroker's electronic sign showing the Dow trying to break
10,000.

I understand the reasoning for holding the IETF here -- to discourage
all but the most highly motivated from attending. But it doesn't seem
to be working. So why, oh why, can't we just permanently move this
thing to (say) Las Vegas, where there are hotels actually large enough
to accomodate us, and where the winter climate is actually survivable?

Phil

---

From: John Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:14:42 -0500

>"39". The units aren't mentioned. Kelvins?

Wow!!! It must be Spring in Minneapolis.  I hadn't realized it would 
be so warm.  Nice that it worked out that way.

>to accomodate us, and where the winter climate is actually survivable?

Even with Spring in MN, this is probably still a good idea.  Or New 
Orleans, at least it is warm and centrally located.

Take care,

---

From: Lyndon Nerenberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:29:07 -0700

> Orleans, at least it is warm and centrally located.

Central to population is probably somewhere in Asia. Do I need to
write an informational RFC documenting how the USA is not the
centre of the universe, let alone the Internet? Sigh.

--lyndon

---

From: Marc Blanchet <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:42:23 -0500

At/À 11:14 2001-03-20 -0500, John Day you wrote/vous écriviez:

>Wow!!! It must be Spring in Minneapolis.  I hadn't realized it would be so 
>warm.  Nice that it worked out that way.
>
>>

sorry, but this is a US centric comment. IETF is international, so 
centrally located is an interesting question: center of the earth (probably 
enough hot...;-))).

back on work...

Marc.

>Take care,

Marc Blanchet
Viagénie inc.
tel: 418-656-9254
http://www.viagenie.qc.ca

----------------------------------------------------------
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IETF RFC, drafts, IANA, W3C, ATMForum, ISO, ... all in one place.

---

From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:24:09 +0100 (CET)

Can we please agree that there is no perfect place to hold the IETF and
stop this discussion?

Henk

> http://www.viagenie.qc.ca

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---

From: Danny Iacovou <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 101 11:53:24 -0600 (CST)

> open) always seem to be closed whenever you're looking for food.

 I think the best place to eat in Mpls is at Kypros Restaurant, 14th
 and Nicollet...right by the convention center. It is Greek/Cypriot
 food. Now, I'm not saying this because I own the place, but rather,
 because it is IETF friendly.  

 Beware: my father has been known to throw out customers who show up
		 trying to persuade him on the merits of NAT ;-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neophytos Iacovou                                    University of Minnesota
Academic & Distributed Computing Services            100 Union St. SE
email: [email-masked]                 Minneapolis, MN 55455 USA

---

From: Grenville Armitage <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:16:48 -0800

John Day wrote:
	[..]
>  Or New

Or for equally painful travel for almost everyone, yet
still well IP connected, can't beat Australia :)

cheers,
gja

---

From: Lloyd Wood <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:41:25 +0000 (GMT)

On Tue, 20 Mar 101, Danny Iacovou wrote:

>  I think the best place to eat in Mpls

Nononono.

Don't call it that. It's officially the area known as 'sub-polar'.
Lots of drafts if you leave the door open just a fraction too - they
get everywhere.

L.

<[email-masked]>PGP<http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/>

---

From: Edward Lewis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:59:53 -0500

>The stockbroker's electronic sign showing the Dow trying to break

What's really ironic in your mentioning this (in a deju vu thread) is that
the Dow first hit and closed above 10,000 when we were here in 1999.  I
remember watching for it on (probably) the same sign.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                NAI Labs
Phone: +1 443-259-2352                      Email: [email-masked]

Dilbert is an optimist.

Opinions expressed are property of my evil twin, not my employer.

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:40:04 -0500

>>>>> "Phil" == Phil Karn <[email-masked]> writes:
    Phil> Having to stay at the Marquette hotel 3+ blocks away because,
    Phil> living on the west coast, I'm at least 50 milli-light-seconds

  I'm one of the lucky...
  One thing that people might consider is going more than one to a room.

    Phil> farther away than most of the people contending for the token
    Phil> number of on-site hotel rooms when the meeting site is announced.

    Phil> The much-touted "skyway" that is inevitably locked when you want to
    Phil> return to your hotel, forcing an unprotected late-night dash out on

  I must agree with your frustration with the skyway, particularly the food.
  I regard this weather as "balmy", so this is a question of relativity.

    Phil> I understand the reasoning for holding the IETF here -- to
    Phil> discourage all but the most highly motivated from attending. But it
    Phil> doesn't seem to be working. So why, oh why, can't we just
    Phil> permanently move this thing to (say) Las Vegas, where there are

  I personally find LV's climate too leave a lot to be desired, but as I'd
never have to leave the hotel, I might not care.
  I think it should still rotate to different parts of the planet.

  [From: address changed to avoid 30+ vacation messages]

] Train travel features AC outlets with no take-off restrictions|gigabit is no[
]   Michael Richardson, Solidum Systems   Oh where, oh where has|problem  with[
]     [email-masked]   www.solidum.com   the little fishy gone?|PAX.port 1100[
] panic("Just another NetBSD/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [

---

From: "Christopher Ambler" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:25:40 -0800

From: "Grenville Armitage" <[email-masked]>
> still well IP connected, can't beat Australia :)

Please, no, not again. The ICANN meeting in Melbourne was
more than enough.

I second the Las Vegas idea :-)

Christopher

---

From: John Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:58:20 -0500

>centrally located is an interesting question: center of the earth 
>(probably enough hot...;-))).

I'm not so sure.  From what I hear from the EU and Pacific Rim 
countries, the Internet is a US plot intended at further imposing US 
imperialism on the rest of the world.  How can that many people be 
wrong?  I was just going with the majority opinion.

Take care,
John Day

---

From: Leslie Daigle <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:29:09 -0500

> Lots of drafts if you leave the door open just a fraction too - they

Certainly observed to be a feature of MPLS.

(122 of them in the current draft repository...)

Leslie.

-- 

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"The best laid plans
    are written in pencil."
   -- ThinkingCat

Leslie Daigle
[email-masked]
-------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:35:12 -0600

>Orleans, at least it is warm and centrally located.

Centrally of what?

   Patrik -- Stockholm

---

From: "James Binder" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:10:47 -0800

Maui, Hawaii is always nice and even lets the Far East get there fairly
easily.  It is one of the primary reasons the IEEE does Maui ever years or
so to allow far east access instead of incurring the cost of Japan.

/jsb

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Ambler [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:26 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Deja Vu

Christopher

---

From: Ari Huttunen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:25:04 +0200

You are absolutely right, and that's why we should continue this
discussion! I'm somewhat bored that I mostly only get to make trips
to the US. Most cities look pretty much the same, etc. I'd rather
have meetings in a changing continent principle, like I've never
been Africa or Asia or Southern America or many other exotic locations..

Half of ;-)..

Ari

-- 
Ari Huttunen                   phone: +358 9 2520 0700
Software Architect             fax  : +358 9 2520 5001

F-Secure Corporation       http://www.F-Secure.com 

F-Secure products: Integrated Solutions for Enterprise Security

---

From: Bill Manning <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:50:53 -0800 (PST)

% 
% At 11.14 -0500 01-03-20, John Day wrote:
% >Even with Spring in MN, this is probably still a good idea.  Or New 
% >Orleans, at least it is warm and centrally located.
% 
% Centrally of what?
% 
%    Patrik -- Stockholm
% 

Lule' in January anyone?

-- 
--bill

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:54:17 -0800 (PST)

This discussion seems to get rehashed in one form or another everytime we
have a meeting it seems...

due consideration when hosting the meeting in the US (or anywhere else)
involves placing it in a location with major international air-routes to
the pacific rim and europe (and the US if outside)... New Orleans, San
Antonio, Las Vegas and my hometown (eugene oregon) aren't really in the
running when you compare them to chicago, sfo, atlanta and so on... Flying
to secondary airports on an international itinerary or worse leaving from
a secondary airport and arriving at another on the other end is
logistically complicated, and expensive, which substantially reduces the
accessiblity of the ietf.

centrality, like on the network, has more to do with physical
interconnectedness than geography.

regards
joelja

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Academic User Services			     [email-masked]
     PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E
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It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of
arms.  Karl Marx -- Introduction to the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of
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---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:28:19 -0800 (PST)

kinda dark... but they already have multicast.

joelja

---

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:13:43 -0600

>% >Orleans, at least it is warm and centrally located.

FYI: We will in that case not run out of hotel rooms in the ice hotel 
(built out of ice-blocks) because they "just" increase the number of 
rooms of the hotel according to the number of bookings they get.

You can also get various liquid drinks really served "on the rocks"...

    paf

---

From: Phil Karn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:14:05 -0800

>What's really ironic in your mentioning this (in a deju vu thread) is
>that the Dow first hit and closed above 10,000 when we were here in
>1999.  I remember watching for it on (probably) the same sign.

Gee, you noticed this too, huh?

As for the "US-centric" accusations, I have no problem with holding
the IETF in various countries around the world. But when it *is* held
in the US, adequate facilities should be selected.

Phil

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:15:48 +0800 (SGT)

[ From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]> ]
    [ Date: 12:54 (-0800), Mar 20, 2001 ]

    > This discussion seems to get rehashed in one form or
    > another everytime we have a meeting it seems...
    >
    > due consideration when hosting the meeting in the US
    > (or anywhere else) involves placing it in a location
    > with major international air-routes to the pacific
    > rim and europe (and the US if outside)... New
    > Orleans, San Antonio, Las Vegas and my hometown
    > (eugene oregon) aren't really in the running when you
    > compare them to chicago, sfo, atlanta and so on...
    > Flying to secondary airports on an international
    > itinerary or worse leaving from a secondary airport
    > and arriving at another on the other end is
    > logistically complicated, and expensive, which
    > substantially reduces the accessiblity of the ietf.

add to it the fact that for most parts, the domestic air services
in the US leave a lot to be desired.  I travel almost every other
month to the US of A and it seems that a flight on a domestic
route taking off on time is more of an anomaly than the norm.

/amlan.

---

From: Matt Holdrege <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:35:58 -0800

>in the US, adequate facilities should be selected.

In all the years I've been attending the IETF (too many), the Minneapolis 
Hilton has the best facilities, best sized rooms, most cookies and pops, 
and the best run meetings of the bunch. Who cares what the temperature 
outside is?

---

From: William Allen Simpson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:52:27 -0500

This is a rare case where I disagree with Phil.  This is a good 
location.  Unfortunately, it wasn't cold enough to discourage the 
usual gaggle of folks that haven't read the charter or the drafts....

It seems pretty warm to me, and I'm walking down 6 blocks to the 
cheaper hotel. 

The real problem has been DHCP (again).  Cannot get an address on 
wireless at all (checked every day).  Takes several tries (up to 20 
minutes) to get an address on wired network.

Also, my Farallon card on my Mac has had a tough time even seeing 
some of the AP-1000s.  I've placed the laptop within 3 feet, and 
detected no wireless.  In other rooms, I've seen 2 or 3 APs. 

None of the Mac folks I've talked to have had any success with the 
wireless DHCP.  We have to hand configure.

Question: did somebody use M$ NT DHCP again?  We know it doesn't work 
reliably.

-- 

[email-masked]
    Key fingerprint =  17 40 5E 67 15 6F 31 26  DD 0D B9 9B 6A 15 2C 32

---

From: Marc Blanchet <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:00:11 -0500

At/À 12:52 2001-03-22 -0500, William Allen Simpson you wrote/vous écriviez:
>The real problem has been DHCP (again).

use ipv6 ;-)))

Marc.

>  Cannot get an address on

Marc Blanchet
Viagénie inc.
tel: 418-656-9254

---

From: William Gilliam <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:57:22 -0800 (PST)

In a previous message, William Allen Simpson said:

[...]
> wireless DHCP.  We have to hand configure.

(Heck, we should have discussed this while we were sitting in the
same meeting room this morning.)

I agree that my poor Mac (using the "built-in" AirPort card) has
needed to ask the DHCP server three or four times for an address,
but I do eventually get the addresses on the wireless network.  

> Question: did somebody use M$ NT DHCP again?  We know it doesn't work 

Good question.

[...]

WG

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 05:58:19 +0900

>>The real problem has been DHCP (again).

	i'm running IPv6-only laptop and having no problem at all.

	there were issues with wireless basestations during the early part
	of the week, but with help from John Richey "the wireless guy" of
	Lucent, it works just great by now.

	instructions and statistics (traffic, # of IPv6 nodes) are available at:
	http://www.kame.net/ietf50/
	http://www.kame.net/ietf50/numhosts.png

	there are around 70 laptops that are IPv6-aware (respond to IPv6 ping).
	as mentioned in plenary, 900+ laptops are on wireless.  so
	it will be safe to say that there are 7% to 8% IPv6-aware laptops
	amoung all the laptops.

	I'm willing to help you configure your laptop to be IPv6 ready
	(specifically if you are using any of BSD variants),
	try to catch IPv6 guys in term room or other places.

itojun

---

From: Paul Hoffman / IMC <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:19:38 -0600

>wireless DHCP.  We have to hand configure.

You must run in a different circle of IETF Mac users. None of the 
many that I know (including me) had any problem.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:42:40 -0800 (PST)

> >wireless DHCP.  We have to hand configure.

You to set the ssid for the network you're on, it's not broadcast on this
network. so yeah it doesn't work with no configuration but it does
work.... I experience dsome minor hiccups using pumpd on linux but not
since sunday...

---

From: RJ Atkinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:26:14 -0500

>usual gaggle of folks that haven't read the charter or the drafts....

        I thought the host folk and hotel did a fine job overall.
I encourage IETF visiting cold climates during the local winter 
and hot steamy climates during local summer.  For example,
next time we do Oslo or Stockholm, maybe we could do so in winter.

        I did think that the percentage of attendees who seemed
genuinely interested and engaged in technical discussion during
WG meetings was much higher than in San Diego.  Also, I was able
to attend WG meetings that I tried to attend in Minneapolis,
whereas I got into zero of the WG meetings I tried to attend
in San Diego.

Ran

---

From: "David R. Oran" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:41:12 -0500

The economy was probably at least as big a deterrent as the weather.
That's one deterrent I wold rather not have as a permanent feature :-)

> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of RJ Atkinson
> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 6:26 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Kudos to MSP IETF hosts & other ramblings
> 
> 
>         I thought the host folk and hotel did a fine job 
> overall. I encourage IETF visiting cold climates during the 
> local winter 
>         I did think that the percentage of attendees who 
> seemed genuinely interested and engaged in technical 
> discussion during WG meetings was much higher than in San 
> Diego.  Also, I was able to attend WG meetings that I tried 
> to attend in Minneapolis, whereas I got into zero of the WG 
> meetings I tried to attend in San Diego.
> 
> Ran
> 
> -
> This message was passed through 
> [email-masked], which is a sublist of 
> [email-masked]. Not all messages are passed. Decisions on what 
> to pass are made solely by Maurizio Codogno.
>

---

From: Jon Crowcroft <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:52:40 +0000

also,the wireless access fro mthe pub was inspired! we got really
serious bar bof work done without tourists kibbitzing

 >>whereas I got into zero of the WG meetings I tried to attend

 cheers

   jon

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:10:53 -0500

Not to pick on Jon specifically, but how is this common IETF
attitude consistent with the IETF's stated commitment to 
open process?

---

From: Jon Crowcroft <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 14:50:39 +0000

well adding another enue to the IETF seems to me to be more open

also note the _process_ is to do with WG last call etc - we were'd`nt
doing anymore than talking about bugs in i-ds that we wrote (and all
authoprs were present) - this is what bar bofs are usually for - i
dont see that this is any different fro mauthors conversing over email
before releasing a new id to thr world

finally:
bofs are not Wgs. they dont do nuffink til they get chartered so they
are not really in the process. bar bofs arent even bofs. they dont do
anythign til the get sobered.

 cheers

   jon

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:10:28 -0600

Design teams and editorial teams are part of our process,
and they may as well meet in the pub as anywhere. As long
as their results are put in front of the WG, I don't see
a problem here.

   Brian

---

From: [email-masked] (David C Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:24:20 -0500 (EST)

Jon Crowcroft writes:
> serious bar bof work done [...]

I wouldn't call it inspired, though it is greatly appreciated.
Wireless access from the hotel bar (and sometimes from bars down the
street!) has been a feature of IETF for years, and is now practically
a requirement.  People are quite unhappy when it isn't there.

---

From: [email-masked] (Kai Henningsen)
Date: 24 Mar 2001 14:31:00 +0200

> wrong?  I was just going with the majority opinion.

Looking at ICANN voting turnout, maybe it's a plot by the EU to take over  
the US?

MfG Kai

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:46:11 -0500

Sorry that I wasn't more specific.  I wasn't objecting to 
the idea of work being done in a bar...

I think that we need to be careful about the assumption 
that everyone we haven't seen before, or that doesn't
speak at a meeting, is a "tourist".  If we want to have
an open organization, we should be more open to the
involvement of new members.

Margaret

---

From: "Hagop Karaoghlanian" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 23:48:38 -0500

Hi there, I agree with Margaret on this topic, and being about 2 weeks old
with the organization, for the record I haven't jumped into a discussion
until now.  It is a little overwhelming to say the least to jump into an
"open" discussion about something.  But I think I'm getting the hang of it
now, whatever that means.

Hagop

-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 8:46 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Kudos to MSP IETF hosts & other ramblings

Margaret

---

From: Jon Crowcroft <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:07:07 +0100

actually, the problem i have with the message was that there is an
assumption about an attitude - i mean al i meant was i wanted to get
good engineering work done in the normal way all effective work gets done
given it wasnt actually a WG it couldnt actualy make any decisions,
but it mioght get some design done (albeit it could then be thrown out
by a WG which is fine by me...)

i think the value of the IETF is its informality - the implied litigious
american attitude about "open" = "everyone MUST attend" etc would
break the IETF even more than pure size. if people want to head that
way then we might as well charge corporate membershipo, ban
individuals and go for the full ITU model....

i dunno...

 cheers

   jon

---

From: John W Noerenberg II <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:56:58 -0800

At 9:07 AM +0100 3/26/01, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>break the IETF even more than pure size.

This is essentially what we mean when we say, "We believe in rough 
consensus and running code."  Informality is born of the attitude 
everyone who comes to the IETF brings technical expertise.

At 4:31 PM +0000 3/23/01, Lloyd Wood wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:
>
>  > ... "tourist" refers to someone who attends
>  > and possibly tries to participate in working groups without having done
>>  their homework.  I've lost track of how many times this week I heard "I
>>  haven't read the drafts, but..." or "Did you read the draft?  No,
>>  but..."
>
>But isn't cross-group fertilisation and wider exposure of work
>supposed to be good for the open process and peer review?

Applying your technical expertise requires understanding the nature 
of the problem. Not reading the drafts and reviewing the archives 
makes the cross-fertilization rather sterile.

-- 

john noerenberg
[email-masked]
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