Subject: Note Well Statement (fwd)

From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 22:58:11 +0200 (EET)

Seriously, couldn't we cut this crap?

At least when I go to the meetings, I can conveniently toss the Note Well
statement away, I really don't want to read it N times for every IETF m-l
I subscribe to.

There needs to be a better mechanism if something like this really has to
be distributed.

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "Tell me of difficulties surmounted,
Netcore Oy                   not those you stumble over and fall"
Systems. Networks. Security.  -- Robert Jordan: A Crown of Swords

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:11:40 -0500
From: The IESG <[email-masked]>
To: All IETF Working Groups:  ;
Subject: Note Well Statement

>From time to time, especially just before a meeting, this statement is to
be sent to each and every IETF working group mailing list.
===========================================================================

				NOTE WELL

All statements related to the activities of the IETF and addressed to the
IETF are subject to all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026, which grants
to the IETF and its participants certain licenses and rights in such
statements.

Such statements include verbal statements in IETF meetings, as well as
written and electronic communications made at any time or place, which are
addressed to

    - the IETF plenary session,
    - any IETF working group or portion thereof,
    - the IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG,
    - the IAB or any member thereof on behalf of the IAB,
    - any IETF mailing list, including the IETF list itself,
      any working group or design team list, or any other list
      functioning under IETF auspices,
    - the RFC Editor or the Internet-Drafts function

Statements made outside of an IETF meeting, mailing list or other function,
that are clearly not intended to be input to an IETF activity, group or
function, are not subject to these provisions.

---

From: "Perry E. Metzger" <[email-masked]>
Date: 08 Nov 2002 18:11:14 -0500

> statement away, I really don't want to read it N times for every IETF m-l

The fact that you're finding yourself annoyed by how often you see it
means that it would be difficult for anyone to claim they had not seen
it. Sadly, I'm not sure how to avoid annoying people in the process...

.pm

---

From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:40:38 +0200 (EET)

> it. Sadly, I'm not sure how to avoid annoying people in the process...

Perhaps I should try to clarify as I've received a number of private
emails too.

The problem with Note Well seems to be that there will *always* be people
who can say they've not received it, due to many reasons:

 - many IETF mailing-lists do not require subscription, _anyone_ can post
there.  Sending the statement on the subscribers is unlikely to help here.
For new, active members, modifying the mailing-list "are you sure you want
to join the mailing-list" confirmation message might help a bit

 - there are many other targets (like IESG/IAB) which are not "lists" and
anyone can indeed send the members working under IETF auspices messages
and never have seen the Note Well statement

 - they haven't been to any IETF physical meeting where they might have
received it on paper

So, it looks like the message sent on lists is trying to reach those
participants who have never been to IETF physical meeting and are
subscribed to a mailing list.

I bet this is a relatively small bunch of people;  well below the magic
80/20 rule..

What I'd find more useful is that people who first post in the lists or
join them would receive the note well automatically, for example through:
 - notice in the joining confirmation message
 - keeping some kind of white-list for people, if person sending a message
is not there, send him a note well and add to the list
 - harvest email addresses from IETF lists and if not on a white-list,
send them note wells and add them there
 - etc.

---

From: Edward Lewis <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:18:57 -0500

>subscribed to a mailing list.

But recall that the IETF's primary form of communication is the 
mailing list, not the face-to-face meetings.  That's why the Note 
Well is on the lists.

>send them note wells and add them there

Not bad ideas, but resource intensive (especially the last). 
Remember that the secratariate body is small and other activity is 
performed predominantly by volunteers.

The "Note Well" is a legal thing, to settle a legal problem.  The 
logic behind legal activities is not the same as the logic driving 
technical activities.  I am sure that there is some notion in the 
legal realm of the need to take reasonable steps to forewarn someone 
- as opposed to the engineering notion of assuring that someone is 
forewarned.  But I do not spend much time studying legal topics.

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                          +1-703-227-9854
ARIN Research Engineer