Subject: www.internetforce.org

From: Franck Martin <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Dec 2003 02:06:08 +1200

Reposted without the digital signature for easy reading by all and to
inform the IETF on a place where non technical discussions about the
Internet can take place (a lot lately on IETF mailing list?)
-----------------

Well as many people hate IP addresses, I have it under a new domain
name...

We cannot use ISTF because it is linked to an ISOC past with a special
purpose and meaning, also after reading everybody contributions in this
list and from the ISOC board, I don't think ISTF need to be resurrected.
I don't think ISTF will be resurrected.

ISDF is only one component of what we want to do, and we will rely on
the ISDF list to reach all the people, still many do not have Web
Access... We will however need a ISDF secretariat that will summarise
what is happening on this list and post it as an article on the web
site.

Now, following Fred Baker ideas, I don't think we should have any task.
Fred Baker is Chairman of ISOC but also highly involved in IETF. We
cannot model an IETF system, because while we can have tasks and
standards in a technical point of view, I don't think we can have tasks
and standards for societal or political issues. Who are we to recommend
things as Mike Todd suggests? Who are we to say that we represents all
the Internet users or that all Internet users can participate in our
forums?

What we can do is offer a platform where people from various opinions
can express themselves freely and build documents on any subject on
Internet related issues. It is a collaborative platform where all users
are given the same right to change, modify, create... I would like this
site to be modelled on the OpenSource concept or more on the
FreeSoftware concepts:
-Any person can participate (no committee reviewing, just peer
acceptance)
-Release often, release Early (post your drafts online and let people
modify it)

Well, so who are we? We are just a group of people who have some
influence in our fields, so we are a force, an Internet Force:

www.internetforce.org

As for ISOC, I don't intend to dissociate myself from ISOC, nor do I
want this site to be a fork of any ISOC activity... Let's say that we
are experimenting something, therefore I'm keeping the requirement that
any user on www.internetforce.org must be an ISOC member (we have here
an even higher requirement than the IETF by the way). I just found out
that the ISOC web site and mailing lists were difficult to update. I
have heard that ISOC is running a wiki but could not find it out easily.
We need something for a bottom up approach where any can contribute
easily without having to go via committees. I hope the ISOC will find
some information useful and will be able to sanction some of the future
documents as official ISOC. I think it will be better that way: We write
many documents, and some reach ISOC status letting the board decide
which one it likes...

PS: Ian, I'm updating the various pages... suggest you spend some time
in the sandbox or on doc.tikiwiki.org to learn more on the Interface
(true for all) ;)

I will add some more features slowly and some content too but on this
last one I rely on all....

On Sun, 2003-12-28 at 10:51, Ian Peter wrote:
> Ian Peter
> 
> 
> (off to figure out how to connect my home page to the ontributing 
> Individuals Page - I tried to follow Franck's instructions, it didn't
work 
> for me but obviously did for many others).
> 
----
Franck Martin
[email-masked]
SOPAC, Fiji
GPG Key fingerprint = 44A4 8AE4 392A 3B92 FDF9  D9C6 BE79 9E60 81D9 1320
"Toute connaissance est une reponse a une question" G.Bachelard

---

From: Paul Robinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 14:19:33 +0000

>Well as many people hate IP addresses, I have it under a new domain
Well, you've certainly grasped the technologies available then! You're 
clearly a trend-setter. I wonder how many people will follow you in 
using domain names instead of IP addresses... :-)

>I don't think ISTF will be resurrected.
I'm sorry, this has been dropped onto [email-masked] without any 
background information having been given. Can you please just explain 
quickly:

1. Why are you doing this, what has it got to do with IETF, and why 
can't this role be directly fulfilled by ISOC?
2. How does it relate directly to the IETF processes?

In other words, what has this got to do with me, or any of the other 
people on [email-masked]?

>Now, following Fred Baker ideas, I don't think we should have any task.
If you don't aim to acheive anything, it's impossible to fail! :-)

>Who are we to recommend things as Mike Todd suggests?
>
End-users. We're end-users of the Internet. Everybody who uses it should 
be entitled to join any body that determines it's future, and any body 
that has influence that is free to join therefore has the right to 
recommend actions for it's future. Think of it as an abstract form of 
democracy. I live in the UK and Paliament has every right to pass laws 
because I voted them into that position, and likewise if I want to 
become a politician I can do so and pass my own laws... Same thing here, 
except you actually need a clue to participate in IETF rather than just 
look good kissing babies.

>-Release often, release Early (post your drafts online and let people
Hey, why not just make everything a Wiki? In fact, why don't we do that 
with the IETF RFCs! :-)

>influence in our fields, so we are a force, an Internet Force:

Do you have costumes like the Power Rangers? Have you seen the film 
"Delta Force"? That film rocks. Can we be a bit like that? :-)

>many documents, and some reach ISOC status letting the board decide

So, in effect, if I sign up and work on those documents, all I get is 
the oppurtunity to gas off with no recognised way of my thoughts 
becoming policy or recommendations of anybody who can actually affect a 
real outcome? I'm sorry, what would my motivation for that be? To make 
myself feel important? To add another paragrapg to my CV that has no 
meaning?

>in the sandbox or on doc.tikiwiki.org to learn more on the Interface
You really are turning this into a wiki.... crikey.

-- 
Paul Robinson

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From: Franck Martin <[email-masked]>
Date: 30 Dec 2003 03:53:07 +1200

Hey,I like your humour ;) No, No, Really!

> using domain names instead of IP addresses... :-)
When you deal with policy issues you can't be too technical, you know...
> myself feel important? To add another paragrapg to my CV that has no 

Well to help you here, read the "Cathedral and the Bazar"...

> You really are turning this into a wiki.... crikey.

What it has to do with IETF, nothing except that any politician will
tell you that you cannot solve all problems technically...So go to the
site and if anything becomes to un-technical on IETF, refer people from
IETF to the site... Thanks for your collaboration...

nough said...

----
Franck Martin
[email-masked]
SOPAC, Fiji