Subject: Re: Ietf ITU DNS stuff III

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:30:56 EST

I find this and a couple of other threads completely and totally fascinating. 
 I find myself wondering who really is dialed in to what's going on and who 
isn't.  And that includes Vint.  Of all the people that stay tuned in,  Vint is 
the one that should know.  

The things that are going on are not being addressed directly and honestly in 
this thread or any other public thread.  The people that are pulling the 
strings don't do it on these threads or in public.  

That's a good thing and a bad thing.  Good that technonerds like ourselves 
can air things out in public, try, and still believe this keeps things in the 
open and honest.  Bad that if we believe that we can really affect important 
things here,  we will wake up one day to find out all our words and thoughts and 
trying were flushed by the people that want to control, and don't care for our 
input.  

It's just a sign of the times.  And a sign that the Internet has succeeded so 
well that the big boys want to control it.  For their own purposes.  And they 
will.  

The simplest clue is that the IETF (supposedly) once consisted of individuals 
working for common interests, but now there or very few that speak for 
themselves.  They are captive to their employer or contractor (for you 
"academicians" out there that want to pretend your motives are pure).

---

From: Paul Vixie <[email-masked]>
Date: 04 Dec 2003 05:27:40 +0000

> ... just a sign of the times.  And a sign that the Internet has succeeded
> so well that the big boys want to control it.  For their own purposes.
> And they will.

to misquote john gilmore, "the internet interprets control as damage and
routes around it."  anything nonconsensual ends up self-marginalizing.

look at software implementations of internet-series protocols for examples.
the implementations with the most "control" over the present and future of
these protocols are the ones with unclear ownership that are given away for
free.

there's plenty to worry about wrt the big boys controlling things, but the
internet is definitionally and constitutionally uncontrollable.  yay!
-- 
Paul Vixie

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From: jfcm <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:05:00 +0100

>internet is definitionally and constitutionally uncontrollable.  yay!

This seems untrue in terms of operations if I refer myself to the USG 
relations with the nets.
This sounds like talking about a serial killer to me if you talk about the 
impact of the Internet on real people's life.

I am afraid it is also technically extremely confuse. The missing subjects 
and mssing URLs in: 
http://www.iab.org/documents/resources/architectural-issues.html say a lot 
to non internuts trying to understand it. Unless you might have a better 
focal portal?

Right now, many Governments uses http://whitehouse.gov/pcipb as an entry 
point into the internet issues.

thank you.
jfc

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From: Franck Martin <[email-masked]>
Date: 05 Dec 2003 10:30:03 +1200

> point into the internet issues.

And they are WRONG!

Once again, they deal with the Internet in the wrong forum. They are
trying to deal with issues with people who have no power or at best
proxy power on how the Internet is made. It is a waste of resources.

The old schema of political organisation and telecommunication is being
challenged by the Internet and people try to hold onto it, like they
hold on their monopolies, or their office.

There would be here a sense in the Internet of "alter mondialisation"
that I would not be surprised. Surprisingly too, it is the most
"communist" (Internet is for Everyone) project that ever came out of the
USA.

So we better spend our energies explaining to traditional structures,
where the decisions are made, by who and why... Get them a plane ticket
to the next IETF, INET, IAB, ICANN meeting and stop to move this
discussion to places where decisions cannot be implemented... (Don't ask
a bus driver to change the traffic lights...)

Cheers

----
Franck Martin
[email-masked]
SOPAC, Fiji
GPG Key fingerprint = 44A4 8AE4 392A 3B92 FDF9  D9C6 BE79 9E60 81D9 1320
"Toute connaissance est une reponse a une question" G.Bachelard